1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, they're welcome to stuff to Blow 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: your Mind. I'm Julie Douglas, and this week Robert Lamb 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: is out getting his dendrites cleaned, so we thought, hey, 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: why not run an encore presentation of one of our 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: favorite episodes, The Wind Beneath My Surgical Wings. It is 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: a nice, juicy topic that delves into the transcendence of 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: our limited biological capabilities with a dream of light, of course, 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: So enough preamble, hope that you enjoyed. Julie, who is 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: not dream of either having wings themselves or just dreams 11 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: of winged humanoids flying about? I mean, it's the stuff 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: of just ancient myth, the stuff of fantasy, the stuff 13 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: of religion, the stuff of of art. It's there's something 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: just irresistible about the idea of a human with the 15 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: wings of a bird, or even the wings of a bat. Yeah. 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: The desire to fly, I think is pretty universal. Even 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: Dorothy from Oz right somewhere of the rainbow, bluebirds fly, 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: birds fly over the rainbow? Why then, oh, why can't 19 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: I go to singing the rest? Okay? But yeah, one 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: example that always comes to my mind. I mean there 21 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: are a lot of aiconic ones. Obviously, the myth of 22 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: Acarus and dayalists big the idea that you know, they 23 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: built these wings and then they fly too close to 24 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 1: the sun and then they plummet. It's just a fantastic 25 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: metaphor for so much in human endeavor, human technology, um, 26 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: humans reaching to achieve things that they were not necessarily 27 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: biologically gifted with, but via their intelligence, are in a 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: sense genetically gifted with. I also think back to a 29 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: book called Goodbye to All That by Robert Graves, British 30 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: author who famously wrote I Claudius Um. It's probably what 31 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: he's most known for, but this was his biography and 32 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: he was talking about his um, his service in World 33 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: War One. There's a bit about mountain climbing in that 34 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: as well, because he was one of these just really 35 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: adventurous dudes. He'd go out with his his pals and 36 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: they would scale these these towering cliffs. And there was 37 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: one point where he's talking about, you know, clinging to 38 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: the side of this this rock face. Uh, you know, 39 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: pretty to someone like me who is not a mountain 40 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: climber and will never mountain climb terrifying idea, just to 41 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: imagine myself clinging to the side of a mountain face. 42 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: But he was unfazed by it. He was an adventurous dude, 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: had bravery in just a natural inclination for this kind 44 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: of thing. But one time he said, they're scaling, They're 45 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: they're a little tired clinging to the side, and a 46 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: bird like sort of float flies by, but given the 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: altitude and the wind kind of floats out there to 48 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: the side, and and he mentioned he was just so 49 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: unnerving the idea that it was like the bird was 50 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: was coaxing him into letting go, as if there was 51 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: another way, as if he could fly, which which also 52 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: gets into these weird impulses we sometimes have of almost 53 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: like off destructive impulses. The the idea that, oh, if 54 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: I get too close to the edge of the building, 55 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: I might jump off. I was to say, because I 56 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: have that. So even if I'm say, like a fairly 57 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: like simple structure like a mall on the second floor, 58 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to go to the edge because I 59 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: feel as if I'm going to plunge off. So it's 60 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: kind of interesting that there's this idea of him, you know, 61 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: clinging to the side and this bird sort of mocking 62 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: him to the limits of his own morphology, right, like, hey, dude, 63 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: you're never gonna have wings. You might think you're this 64 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 1: cool that you can, you know, rock climb up here, 65 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: but you know, let me just buzz around you and 66 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: remind you of this. Yeah. It's like, in a sense, 67 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: we see the birds flying and we we ended it, 68 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: and we feel to a certain extent like it's our 69 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: birthright because vast empty air, vast heights are terrifying, because 70 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: we know that that's a limitation to us. We know 71 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: that those are those are heights that we cannot really 72 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: ascend to. Yes, we you know, we we have airplanes 73 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: at our disposal. We have various, uh methods of flight 74 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: and gliding and skydiving and every think, but they're all 75 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: kind of cheap imitations of the natural biological gifts of 76 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: a bird. That's right, We're greedy. We want it for ourselves. 77 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: It's not enough that we have created flight in the 78 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: form of jets and planes and uh, you know, various 79 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: other modes of transportation. So the question and the question 80 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: for this podcast is is it would it be possible? 81 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: Is it really possible that we could somehow create wings 82 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: for ourselves? Um? And I'm not talking just like strapping 83 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: on wings, because there are wingsuits which are phenomenal. There's 84 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: an article on them on how stuff works dot com 85 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: that I wrote, how wingsuits work, and it's phenomenal technology 86 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: and the people who use them are insane and also 87 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: highly skilled. Um. But yeah, could we actually have biological 88 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: wings that are a part of us, that are an 89 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: extension of us? Right? Could we gain our bodies in 90 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: our minds in order to actually have this be a 91 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: part of our own morphology? And why not? Right? Because 92 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: we've talked about this, this is this is not so crazy, uman, 93 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: it's absolutely out there. But there are so many different 94 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: ways that we have augmented our reality in our physicality 95 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: that uh, no doubt one day this could be a possibility. Yeah, 96 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: I mean you'd, like you said, there's so many things 97 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: we do to our bodies. Anyway, we went into this, 98 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: We've got into this a number of times. We talked 99 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: about posthumanism quite a bit, and and cybernetics. We did 100 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: an episode called the Werewolf Principle um, which probably wasn't 101 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: the best title in the world because it doesn't have 102 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: anything to do with werewolves. It's about that has to 103 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: do with a sci fi story I was reading at 104 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: the time, but the idea that we change our but 105 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: potentially we change our bodies in order to explore space 106 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,119 Speaker 1: and to explore the world. Instead of attempting to bring 107 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: a portion of our atmosphere in our environment with us, 108 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: uh and and and our limitations with us, we instead 109 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: alter ourselves. And certainly we make a lot of augmentations 110 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: to ourselves anyway, so many things such as glasses, contacts, 111 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: various biomedical equipment is added to the human body. We're 112 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: making these changes anyway, for things that are generally thought 113 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: of it is necessary. Um. And then we also make 114 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: changes that are cosmetic in nature. But what about wings? Well, yeah, 115 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: And in order to actually really get to the meat 116 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: of this conversation, we have to bring up Dr Joseph Rosen. 117 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: He is a Dartmouth plastic surgeon and reconstructive surgeon. And 118 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: it's um, I think would be pretty mild just to 119 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: say that he's a futurist. Yeah, And he's a definitely 120 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: a futurist, definitely a post humanist and a he's he's 121 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: one of these amazing individuals that if you look him up. 122 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,799 Speaker 1: You'll find various articles about his work UM, but in particular, 123 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: there was a two thousand and one UM interview slash 124 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: profile in Harper's Magazine by Lawrence Slater. Highly recommend anyone 125 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: read who's fascinated by this topic. It was called Dr Dadalus. 126 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: It's an excellent article. Actually, the way that it was 127 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: written reminded me of Mary Rich in the way that 128 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: she approaches her material, So it is well worth checking out. Alright, 129 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, stay tuned for more 130 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: so with Rosen here's the thing he is. He's totally 131 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: steeped in his profession and he takes on something like 132 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: five hundred patients a year to do mostly reconstructive surgery, 133 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: but some plastic surgery as well. I mean, this is 134 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: someone he was an absolute expert in his field. He is, uh, 135 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: he's steeped in the practicalities of it, but he is 136 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: also a big thinker. Yeah, he's a plastic surgeon, but 137 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: but not a mirror cosmetic surgeon. And the article in 138 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: question went into sort of around the turn of the 139 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: millennium where plastic surgery stood about the idea that it's 140 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: sort of sort of in this place where it's often 141 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: looked down on um by people outside of the medical profession, 142 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: and sometimes within the medical profession may be seen as 143 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: as a as a lesser medical practice, which of course 144 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: is not not the case when you look at the 145 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,239 Speaker 1: the the non cosmetic applications, when you're looking at people 146 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: who have undergone a serious injury, particularly facial injuries for instance, 147 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: and finding ways to correct that and and bring a 148 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: certain amount of normalcy back to that person's life. When 149 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: you look at cleft palate and cleft lip reconstruction, yeah, 150 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's a lot that goes on in 151 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: plastic surgery that is not breast jobs. But but that 152 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: tends to be sort of the the easy association that 153 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: people make when you just hear plastic surgeon on TV. Oh, 154 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: she went to the plastic surgeon's office. That means she 155 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: had something superficial and unnecessary done. But plastic surgery is 156 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: bigger than that, much bigger. And uh, you know, as 157 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,599 Speaker 1: you could said that he has he's worked on reconstructing 158 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: faces um winded warrior winded warrior causes, right, So we're 159 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: talking about catastrophic poly trauma. So if you're in if 160 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: you're a soldier and you have undergone this trauma, what 161 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: that means is that you have so many various problems 162 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: going on um that you can't necessarily find a solution 163 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: to all of those injuries. But what Dr Rosen can 164 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: do is he can fashion a new knows um. But 165 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: he can't restore that soldier's sense of smell, he can 166 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: at least give some sort of normalcy back to that person. 167 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: So that's a lot of work that he does there. Um. 168 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: He also is working on healthcare reform that this is 169 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: really interesting. This is in the form of cybercare. He 170 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: argues that our hospital system is just uh, you know, 171 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: an outgrowth of the Civil War. In other words, it 172 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: was set up to administer to a huge amount of 173 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: massive casualties. And he's saying that that's just not the 174 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: way that the world works today. And he is helping 175 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: to revamp the national healthcare system Vietnam using cell phones 176 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: and laptops to link clinics, hospitals, and rural physicians. So 177 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: this guy is a renaissance man. And like I said, 178 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: he's a big thinker, which is extended over to his 179 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: ideas about what we can do in terms of improving, 180 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: not just augmenting, I should say, but really heightening our 181 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: senses as a human being, in augmenting our experiences as 182 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: a human being. Yeah, he's an amazing thinker. And then 183 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: he really he's the cliche, you know, thinks outside the box. 184 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: He is the he's a bit of a rebel. He's 185 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: he's questioning authority and questioning sort of normal approaches to 186 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: things all the time. And you see that with with 187 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: with various gifted minds out there. You know, it's it's 188 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: not merely that they work really hard and are just 189 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: geniuses within the confines of their profession, within the confines 190 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: of their their role in society, but they actually think 191 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: beyond the typical constraints. It's true. Like, for instance, he 192 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: says that a salamander can regenerate an arm in forty 193 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: two days, So he says, somewhere in your own genome 194 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: that ability still exists. He says, why can't we go 195 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: ahead and find that figure that out so that we 196 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: can regenerate a whole limb for ourselves. And he says, 197 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: we can do it. It's just a matter of you know, 198 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: twenty to fifty years to coming up with that. Um 199 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: so you know, he also looks at soldiers again who 200 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: have had those catastrophic A traumas, and he says, why 201 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: can't we use a whole body prophesis, like you know 202 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: that's made out an exo skeleton. Um. You know, obviously 203 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: cost is a factor in perception because it's not to 204 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: it's not too normal. They see someone trapesing through a hallway, 205 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: who's you know, in case in excess skeleton. But he's 206 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: got these ideas of how to make it work for 207 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: humans and how to, as I said, augment the experiences 208 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: for people and make it better. Yeah, he wants to 209 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: make it better. He wants to fix it. You see 210 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,599 Speaker 1: that both in in healthcare reform, as you mentioned, but 211 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: also but more importantly, in the human body. There's a 212 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: great quote from that article that I think really sums 213 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: up a lot about Rosen's outlook on not just plastic 214 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: surgery but life. He says, you know, I'm really proud 215 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: of that face. And he's talking about some facial reconstruction 216 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: that he performed on an individual who lost a lot 217 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: of it to cancer. Because I'm really proud of that face. 218 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: I didn't follow any protocol. There's no textbook to tell 219 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: you how to fashion of face eaten away by cancer. 220 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: Plastic surgery is the intersection of art and science. It's 221 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: the intersection of the surgeons imagination with human flesh, and 222 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: human flesh is infinitely malleable. People say cosmetic surgery is 223 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: frivolous boobs and noses, but it's so much more than that. 224 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: The body is a conduit for the soul, at least 225 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: historically speaking. When you change what you look like, you 226 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: change who you are so well, and it doesn't that 227 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: kind of speak to a lot of what we've talked 228 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: about in the podcast in terms of studies having to 229 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: do with psychology the whole, like you you know, take 230 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: it till you make it, or you know, if you 231 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: assume a powerful posture, then your body responds physiologically, So 232 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of what he's saying is is 233 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: there's a truth there that if you can change yourself 234 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: in that way, then certainly physically and mentally, things will follow. Okay, 235 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: So let's get into some of his really fun post 236 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: humanist dreams for the human body. Yeah, because he again 237 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: he's all about making the changes necessary, arguably necessary in 238 00:12:55,360 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: some cases to make us better beings. For instance, ocular 239 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: implants new rods for the eyes to give a super 240 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: binocular vision. UM soldier implants like, this is great a 241 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: nose flash light because you know your nose is just there. 242 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: You know it's important for breathing. But you know optics 243 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: to optic technology grow smaller and smaller, why not have 244 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: a light up there? Imagine you sort of you know, 245 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: you click one nostril and then a light shines out 246 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: the other nose and you it's perfect for reading. It's 247 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: a great idea. Really, now, I can just see eight 248 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: year old really having fun with that when they blow 249 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: their nose. Yeah. Yeah, like light flashes, like really bright 250 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: light every time you sneeze. But it's stuff like that, 251 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: like when you say it, like we're even laughing because 252 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: it's ridiculous. It's so different from what we're used to. 253 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: But Rosen is the kind of guy that says, no, 254 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: why are you laughing? Because this is actually really practical. Right, 255 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 1: he's saying, in a military sense, why wouldn't you want 256 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: your soldier outfitted with us? Right? Because it makes perfect sense. Um. 257 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: Cochlear implants, of course, are already in existence, but what 258 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: he is suggesting is that you have cochlear implants that 259 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: the hands are hearing, essentially giving us far superior auditory powers, 260 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: so we'd be able to detect things miles away, again 261 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,599 Speaker 1: becoming superhuman. And uh, because, as we've mentioned before, the 262 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: senses that we used to perceive the world are in 263 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: varying degrees limited or extremely limited even compared to other animals. Um. 264 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: You know, it's like the mantis shrimp, which sees and 265 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: all this vast array of colors that we can scarcely imagine. 266 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: We've talked about when we're talking about bats, how it's 267 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: almost impossible for us to really imagine what it's like 268 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: to to quote unquote see the world as a bat. 269 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: So instead of being limited by this this world that 270 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: we've painted in just a few different colors, he's saying, 271 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: why don't we paint the world in more colors? Why 272 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: don't we update our our machinery so that we can 273 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: paint a more brilliant world. You know, that's an interesting 274 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: concept to think about when, especially in the U. I 275 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: guess in the context of how we are bombard did 276 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: with stimuli these days, and we've talked about this and 277 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: the multitasking episodes quite a bit, so I wonder if 278 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: if doing that, if sort of upping your experience of 279 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: that stimuli would would make sense in this sort of 280 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: new world where you're getting thrown things all the time. 281 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: So if you can, other words, if you can kind 282 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: of tune in a little bit more, things are a 283 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: little bit louder, things are a little bit brighter. Does 284 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: that make sense for the modern human mind? Yeah, sort 285 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: of opening ended question there, But I wanted to point 286 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: out that Rosen is also a fan of equo location 287 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: implants and fins fins, Yes, why not? I mean it 288 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: comes down to a lot of you know, biomimicry. If 289 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: you want to see how to swim, look for it. 290 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: Look at an animal that has evolved over the course 291 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: of millions and millions of years to be an incredible swimmer. 292 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: That's what you need to do. And that we do 293 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: that to a certain extent, and looking at the shark 294 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: skin and then adapting that into swimwear. Um. But he's 295 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: talking about taking it even even further, and of course 296 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: his pet project, his pet thought experiment. I guess you 297 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: could say surgical wings, because this is really where his 298 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: engineering brain meets his his his reconstructive brain and brushes 299 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: up against the brain of mad science for sure, But 300 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: it is important to think of it as as a 301 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: thought experiment. Um, he is not trying to do this 302 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: or anything that we know of, uh, but but it 303 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: is a great thought experience for just what are you know? 304 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: What are we willing to do? What can we do? 305 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: And why are we why do we feel weird about 306 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: going into some of these areas? Like for instance, so 307 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: one of the examples he brings up just in plastic surgery, 308 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: and one, I mean he brings it up. He brings 309 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: it up at conferences because this this dude has been 310 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: an amazing figure in plastic surgery. He travels all over 311 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: the world, speaks a big conferences. He's an influential character. 312 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: So he's not just his voice out on the fringe. 313 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: He's a leading figure. Um, So he brought up for instance, 314 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: you have a man walks into the surgeon's office and 315 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: he has an extra thumb. Um, he's then he is 316 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: a doctor is allowed to take that thumb off. But 317 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: but if a person comes in and says, hey, I 318 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: would like an extra thumb, then he can't. He can't 319 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: do that. That's that's just completely crazy. And then nobody 320 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: adds extra thumbs to people. But he was saying that 321 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: he there was one person that who was I would 322 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: give a waiter server and had an extra thumb and 323 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: it actually aided that person in their job. This is 324 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: an actual person with the second thumb. And he was saying, well, 325 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: that that was helping that person out. So, yeah, why 326 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: is it beyond the pail to add extra digits? Yeah? 327 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: And then there's also the breast uh example that he 328 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: brings up, um, And this is he brought this up 329 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: when people were pressing him on the wing issue because 330 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: he'd mentioned it before, and then at a conference some 331 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: people who were kind of you know, they're a little 332 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: freaked out by this, and they're saying, would you really 333 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: do that? Would you really give somebody wings? Or would 334 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: you give somebody, you know, lizard skin? Would you really 335 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: do any of these crazy things? And so he's bringing 336 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: up various examples to to make his his point. And 337 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: he pointed out that that there was a lady that 338 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: he'd come across that was the need of breast reconstruction 339 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: and she wanted blue areolas and have anything to say 340 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: about that, but he said, well, you know what's wrong 341 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: with that? Um? You know what why not. If the 342 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: person wants to have blue areolas, let him have blue areolas. 343 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: How is that different from a lot of the things 344 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: we do to our bodies? You know, for some reason, 345 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: of all the things that have been said on this podcast, 346 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: that's the one thing that made me Bush don't ask 347 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,479 Speaker 1: me why, um, you know, And it's stuff like this 348 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: I think that makes people sort of look at him 349 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: a little sideways. But the fact of the matter, as 350 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: I said, this is someone who is an absolute expert 351 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: in his field and steeped in the technology. He's on 352 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: the advisory panel for the Navy as well as NASA. 353 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: His insights on human machine interfaces brought him to the 354 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: attention of the Department of Defense here in the States, 355 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: and they've sought his views on virtual reality, future warfare, 356 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: and bio terrorism. So people want his brain, they want 357 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: to know what's going on and rumbling around in that 358 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: brain is blue aery, aerials and uh, you know, nose 359 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: flashlights and surgical wings. Yeah, because again he's one of 360 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: these guys that he thinks or sees something in the 361 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: world and it's it's like it instantly, the wheels are turning, 362 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: like he doesn't take anything for Granted, he thinks about 363 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: it's possible applications, possible ways to improve it, like, for instance, 364 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: with rhinoplastic which often is you know, typically about correcting 365 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: rebuilding the nose, or or making cosmetic adjustments to the nose. 366 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: But he's saying that that hasn't even reached his full 367 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: potential that we could we can improve upon the nose 368 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: and then ultimately improvements that we make to the human 369 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: body need not be a surgical in nature, but a 370 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: genetic in nature. Okay, so he's talking about gaming the 371 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: body now through genetics as opposed to plastic surgery or 372 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: getting married eventually. Yeah. Um, Now again you have to 373 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: kind of take his perspective on a little bit if 374 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: this seems odd to you. I mean, again, here's someone 375 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: who's doing five hundred procedures a year. And keep in 376 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: mind that in two thousand and ten, Americans spent over 377 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: ten billion dollars on cosmetic surgery. So if you're in 378 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: this field and you see this over and over again, 379 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: and your futurist you can't help but sit there and say, 380 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: how can I actually improve upon this process? And if 381 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: this is the way that humanity is going, why not 382 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: make it really incredible. Why not chase after the idea 383 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: of flight, which is something that humans, you know, have 384 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: always secretly or not so secretly wanted for themselves. Yeah, 385 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: so he's at this conference again, people keep pressing in 386 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: on this issue, and finally he does answer. Because he's 387 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: not the kind of guy that's gonna not tell you 388 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: exactly what he thinks about a topic. He said, and 389 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: they said, would you perform this surgery on someone if 390 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: they want the blue arial the one? No, I think 391 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: he was talking about wings in this case. Yeah, I'm 392 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: just still stuck on hypothetically, and we'll get into the 393 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: mechanics possible mechanics of this surgery in a bet that 394 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: he said, yes, I would. I can certainly see why 395 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: we don't devote research money to it. I can see 396 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: why the n i H would fund work on breast 397 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: cancer over this. But I don't have a problem with 398 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: altering the human form. We do it all the time. 399 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: It's only are you Dao Christian conservatism that makes us 400 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: think this is wrong? Who here doesn't try to send 401 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: their children to the best schools in the hopes of 402 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: altering them? Who here objects to palm pilot a thing 403 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: we we class to our bodies with which we receive 404 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: rapid electronic signals. Who here doesn't surround themselves with a 405 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: metal shell and travel at depth defying speeds. We have 406 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: always altered ourselves for beauty or for power, and so 407 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: long as we are not causing harm, what makes us 408 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: think we should stop? And again, that quote is from 409 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: the excellent article by Laurence Slater two thousand one Harvard Magazine. 410 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: Dr dayalis Um highly recommend everyone check that out. So 411 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: we're going to actually close out the this episode right here, 412 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: part one of Surgical Wings, and we're going to continue 413 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: this in Surgical Wings Part two, where we'll really get 414 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: more into the nitty gritty of how you could surgically 415 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: make this uh seemingly impossible thing happen. I like this 416 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: analogy of surgery, and here we are. We're gonna leave 417 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: you guys in the middle, but we're gonna suit tre 418 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: you up in the next part. So statuned for that. So, 419 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: gentle listeners, that was part one, make sure you listen 420 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: in on Thursday for part two. If you want to 421 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: check out more of what we're doing, make sure to 422 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: go to our YouTube channel mind Stuff. Also you can 423 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: see our offerings at stuff to blow your mind dot 424 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: com and hey, a show of hands, since we have 425 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: been talking about this desire to take flight, to be 426 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: able to do what birds and bats do. Um, how 427 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: many of you have actually had the dream we're flying? 428 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,239 Speaker 1: Do you fall to the ground? Do you glide at 429 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 1: street level and wave at people? Or do you sore 430 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: from way above? Let us know and you can do 431 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: that by piping off an email at blow the mind 432 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com for more on this 433 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff works 434 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: dot com.