1 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Doc, welcome back. 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 2: Oh thank you for having me. 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: I tell you we covered clothing pretty good, but it 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: is really important to me to talk about jewelry and 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: piercings and tattoos and marks and how those things will 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: literally allow a victim to give you some victimology on 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: their own. 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it tells you so much. 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: It tells you so much, and there's so much truth 10 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: to dead men do tell tales. 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 3: I think about personal effects jewelry, you know, I had 12 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 3: a homicide that looked like someone had thought with This 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 3: was the middle of the night in a cemetery, and 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 3: my investigator thought it was like a rope style jewelry, 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 3: and I said, it's the ligature mark. Obviously was almost 16 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 3: nearly dark, you can't see, and it ended up being 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 3: like a get your mark, a strangulation mark. But he 18 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 3: also had chains on his neck, do you understand, so 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 3: it's hard to see. You're like, oh, did that just 20 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 3: make a mark or a post mortem? Is it? 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: You know, misinterpretation. 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 3: Then you think about you know, I've seen various necklaces 23 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 3: or jewelry shot through. I've had an injury through a 24 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: purse strap like a slug, like a shotgun slug through 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 3: a purse strap that left a very weird mark on 26 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: this lady's shoulder. 27 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 2: You know, so that and if you didn't know there 28 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: was a. 29 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: Purse strap with a hole through it, you'd be like, 30 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: what kind of wound is this? 31 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: You know, an accessories matter whether it's a purse or 32 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: a belt buckle or a rack. 33 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 3: And you know, the big thing is, we don't just 34 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 3: say purse right at autopsy. We dumped the whole purse 35 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 3: or empty the whole wall and document every single item 36 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: in there. You know, so is it an ID? 37 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: Is there? A bus pass? Is there? You know? Money? 38 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 3: Is their family photo? Is there next of kin or 39 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 3: a bank? You know, a doctor's Sometimes we find doctor's 40 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 3: information there, which is so helpful. Right, if we don't 41 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 3: know anything about this person, we could then call the 42 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 3: doctor and be like, hey, did you have a patient with. 43 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: This demographic maybe by this name? 44 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 3: Because we found your information and the wallet and get 45 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: medical history on them. 46 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: I'll tell you something else. We've had wallets that had 47 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: an appointment for a hairdress, sure, exactly right, And then 48 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: sometimes they'll keep them because they remember when the appointment is. 49 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: But that gives us a place we know the victim was, 50 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: so we can go back and say, hey, she was 51 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: here Wednesday, did she say anything to you? Because we 52 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: found her dead Thursday? 53 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 3: Right, exactly how was she feeling, what was she talking 54 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: about doing? I mean, you can get so much history 55 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 3: that way, right, And if I can get even before 56 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 3: I start the on taps here concurrently, like some medical 57 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: records faxed over emailed over, that gives me so much 58 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: more to work with right from that little piece of information. 59 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 3: So it's not just like the actual clothing. I mean 60 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: not you know, but the personal effects. Sometimes I find 61 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 3: bus passes where if you're on the handicapped bus pass 62 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 3: in Rhode Island, I can get a profile right from 63 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 3: you because that's within a computer system. 64 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: You know, There's so much we can gather that way. 65 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned a little bit ago, not just about 66 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: the way of mark on the neck. Look to the officer, 67 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: they thought it was you know, jewelry. You thought it 68 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: was ligature. But if I see something that looks like, 69 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,839 Speaker 1: oh it looks like ligature marks, you will be able 70 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: to tell me no, no, that was a necklace that 71 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: was ripped off. Well, now we've got to go back 72 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: and find that necklace. Oh absolutely, that could tell me 73 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: where the fight started. 74 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: That's right? Or who has it right? Like could it 75 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: have been pawned? You know? Was it a robbery gone wrong? Right? 76 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 3: Like the investigation surrounding that is so important, But it 77 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: could be as simple as I had an elderly gentleman 78 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: who was so decomposed, you know he was We thought 79 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 3: it was him because he had lived in this apartment 80 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: for many years, but because he was so decomposed, we 81 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 3: could not identify him. 82 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: He was a clean cut. 83 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 3: Older guy, so he didn't have any fingerprints in the system, 84 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: and he wasn'tn idea, you know, visually identifiable because you're 85 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 3: so decomposed. 86 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: But when we talked to. 87 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: His family, they were like, he always wore this thin 88 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 3: gold chain, and in fact, I had a thin gold chain, 89 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 3: you know, and the apartment was locked, no one else 90 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 3: was in. Their mail was addressed to him, and it 91 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: was a well being checked that, you know, it was 92 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 3: why he was found. And so it totally added up 93 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 3: under circumstances that yes, this was the elderly gentleman that 94 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: lived here. 95 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 2: You know. It was the extra little. 96 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: Check mark if you will, gotcha. 97 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 2: And this was a not I mean, if it was 98 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: just a plain chain on a table. 99 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 3: No one could tell me it was his right, but 100 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: it was around the neck of this decomposed body. And 101 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 3: I think it was his daughter who was like, oh, 102 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 3: my dad or uncle always wore a thin gold chain, 103 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 3: you know. 104 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: So it's very telling. 105 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 3: And I'm like, okay, well that adds to the circumstances. 106 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: It makes sense, you know, I felt even more comfortable. 107 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 3: So even a non descript you know what would be 108 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 3: a nondescript thing on a countertop, but in the right 109 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 3: place around the body, and with that sort of description 110 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 3: it really helps. Obviously, something more specific like a belt 111 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 3: buckle is that much more. 112 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: But you had a John Doe with a belt buckle. 113 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: And this is where victimology comes into play. Like I 114 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: don't ever take my wedding ring off. I have friends 115 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: that do if they're washing dishes or doing other things, 116 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: but I don't. So that's part of the victimology. If 117 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: my wedding ring is missing, it was taken, So tell 118 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: us about the belt buckle. 119 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 3: So right, So, there was a middle aged guy that 120 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 3: was missing for eight or ten years, let's say around 121 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 3: a decade or so. Police had searched for him. They 122 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 3: never found him. He was married, no kids, The wife 123 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 3: had moved on, obviously very sad. 124 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 2: They don't know what happened to him. And a deer, 125 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 2: like a guy with a dog. 126 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 3: It's always a dog, right looking for deer antlers which 127 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: are shed normally found a skeletonized remains, completely skeletonized, okay, like. 128 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 2: Not an ounce of flesh left. 129 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: So it had been years, and some of the bones 130 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: were scattered because it was a wooded area. And I 131 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 3: was called to this scene, and we were able to 132 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 3: find a handgun, even the casing. We found the casing within, 133 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 3: so I mean a decade later we still found all 134 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 3: this stuff. And then there were like very trace amounts 135 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 3: of clothing like the scene, like the thick seam of jeans, 136 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 3: but like you couldn't tell the brand or the size 137 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,679 Speaker 3: or anything. There was no real identifiable clothing left because 138 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 3: there's so much animal activity in that area that it 139 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: was scattered and shredded. But then there's this pretty sizable 140 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 3: almost the size of like a small index card, a 141 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 3: little bit smaller, maybe a credit card size. 142 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: This really intrick kick like yellow metal. 143 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 3: It's brass. I think I had an eagle on it, 144 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: like belt buckle. It was beautiful Okay, I've never seen 145 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 3: anything like it, but this case now makes me pay 146 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 3: attention to belt buckles. Funny enough, right, and this is custom. 147 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 3: This is not anything you could buy off a store shelf. 148 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 3: You know. 149 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: It's not like. 150 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 3: There's you know, twenty belts from Macy's. Every woman's belt 151 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 3: or every man's belt looks the same. 152 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: You know. 153 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: This was very unique, and. 154 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: So we thought it might be this gentleman and we 155 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 3: asked we were able to identify, you know, get to 156 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: narrow it down, and then we're like, hey, does. 157 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: This belt buckle mean anything to you? And they're like, oh, 158 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: he always wore that. 159 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 3: And I said, okay, rather than do DNA and take 160 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 3: a year to identify this man, we rather give closure. 161 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 3: Can you show us a photo? And the family pulled 162 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 3: it right out. This is before digital photos. Okay, this 163 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 3: was a heart like a printed photo, and there was 164 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 3: him standing right there, and clear as day. He was 165 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 3: in like what's his wife or a friend or something. 166 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 3: But I remember him standing there and I can see 167 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 3: the black belt buckle. I'm like, he's wearing it right there. 168 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 3: The said, oh, he wore it every day. Every day 169 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 3: he wore this custom belt buckle all his friends could 170 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 3: describe it, his wife could describe it, and I'm like wow, So, 171 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 3: like you know, it was right in the middle of 172 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 3: the skeleton, that's him, Like that's how we identify him. 173 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: And it was so it was so interesting and so 174 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: memorable because of that. 175 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 3: It was so unique that you know, I don't think 176 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: another buckle like this exists. 177 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: I have a John Doe case right now where the 178 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: belt buckle was handmade. He's got a very significant ring 179 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: that was used as like an award for a certain company. 180 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: And then he's got very specific tattoos, very unique, very 181 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: decade specific, very seventies. So you know, we want to 182 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: put this out and we believe it's Kansas City, and 183 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, we need people to look at it because 184 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:33,359 Speaker 1: I believe wholeheartedly his family would recognize these things immediately 185 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: and friends. But I think, like you're talking about with 186 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: your young man, this belt buckle was something he wore 187 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: every day, This ring he wore every day. Clearly, the 188 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: tattoos were part of him every day. So on those 189 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 1: John Doe cases, I mean, you know, I have four sisters. 190 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: Each one of them has a specific piece of jewelry 191 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: that is unique that they wear every day, and I 192 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: could identify those rings. Maybe I will miss a bracelet 193 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: or a necklace because they change those often, but there's 194 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: certain rings they all four have that I would know 195 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: immediately for folks that are unidentified. The Jane and John 196 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: Doees jewelry, I think is one of the most significant 197 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: things we can put out to the public. 198 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: I have a whole different I mean, I'm sort of 199 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 3: sticking to the clothing. Tattoos, scars, I mean, that's a 200 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 3: whole nother level of identification. And oh scars, yep, exactly 201 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 3: really tells you a lot and can be very critical 202 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 3: and identifying. And I think, you know, like I want 203 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 3: to say, I have tattoos. You know, tattoos are more 204 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 3: socially acceptable if you will. 205 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: They're more common. 206 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 3: You know, God forbid you need to. But I have 207 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 3: some unique tattoos. I have my name in Indian script 208 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,599 Speaker 3: on my shoulder. You know, like you could identify me 209 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: with that. You know, there's other unique tattoos. So like 210 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 3: that comes up all the time. And then you know, 211 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 3: if anybody has a record or a police entry, you 212 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: know that tattoos are often photographed or described in their profile, right, 213 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 3: so we can always use that as a identification. 214 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: Oh, that's a database. I often have to, you know, 215 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: consult because it's right there and the photographs are perfect. 216 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 2: Yep, I've done it before. 217 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,719 Speaker 3: If we're going into tattoos, I've used infrared photography on 218 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 3: my burn victims to try to highlight tattoos. There's a 219 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 3: whole uh, you know, decomposed or burn. When the surface 220 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 3: is discolored, you can still use infrared photography to pop 221 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: the tattoo designs out to really highlight them and see them. 222 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 3: And that could be a very distinct way of identifying 223 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 3: someone as well. 224 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: That's right. And you know, when you're talking about tattoos 225 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: and marks again, we're back to religion, We're back to travel, 226 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: we're back to cultural You can look at fraternities. I mean, 227 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: there are things that are going to tell you about 228 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: your victim very quickly. 229 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: Yes. 230 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 3: I mean one of my old attendings had an Omega brand, 231 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 3: you know, from Omega Sci Fi like the Male African 232 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: American fraternity, So you know he had that a lot 233 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 3: of people have. I've seen area code tattoos, I've seen 234 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: cultural markings even like they talk about tribal tattoos. You know, 235 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 3: I would say my name has a sort of Hannah 236 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 3: like design around it, you know, but that I give 237 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 3: a nod to Indian culture. 238 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 2: So you know, there's a lot. 239 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 3: You can tell so much about a person that way, 240 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 3: you know, And so of course if there's any like 241 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: you know, I don't want to bring up, you know, 242 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: horrible times in history, but sometimes we know that people 243 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: had their Social Security number or some other identifying number, 244 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 3: you know, tattooed on them as you know, identifiers, so 245 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 3: you just never. 246 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: Know what it may mean. If it's a symbol. 247 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 3: You know, it's sometimes hard to interpret, if you will, right, 248 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 3: because you're not in their mind. But sometimes it can 249 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 3: be very clear. And it's been very very important for me, 250 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 3: I mean, in numerous cases and identifying people or confirming yeah, 251 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 3: and confirming their identity. You know, the family doesn't want 252 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: to believe that that's their loved one, and I can say, look, 253 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 3: you know, they have these distinct tattoos. It really is 254 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 3: as much as you know, to be extra sure, you 255 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 3: know what I mean, they can maybe they don't look 256 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: like themselves at death, but these are other markings that 257 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 3: are very identifiable by the family. 258 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: And that's two things I want to bring up We 259 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: have cases where we may have a Jane Doe, but 260 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: she's got a tattoo that shows she belonged to a 261 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: pimp and the family may have no idea she was 262 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: in that lifestyle. And the other thing are certain piercings. 263 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: Piercings can be for multiple reasons. But again it's a 264 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: roadmap for us. It tells us victimology. 265 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 2: Oh yes, I mean think about those. 266 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: Piercings are very common in Indian culture and women. 267 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: You know. 268 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 3: Now it's more decorative as well, but like that was 269 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 3: part of you know, almost part of becoming a young 270 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 3: woman onto the way of getting married, you know, having 271 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 3: your nose pierced and whatnot. 272 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: You know, right, well, there's piercings you can't see that. 273 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: Mama may not know you have. 274 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we know those two right, yes, exactly. 275 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: So they're not always identifiers. But again it gives us 276 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: a little insight into this victim. 277 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: Yes, of course, you know. 278 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 3: And there was like it reminds me, you know where 279 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: I had a guy dieing Rhode Island, but originally he 280 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: was from Miami area and he had three zero five 281 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 3: on the back of his hand, you know, which is 282 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 3: a Miami area code. And so like we were like, 283 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 3: wait a second, this is unusual. Why do you know, 284 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 3: why does he have in Miami? And that was pertinent 285 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 3: to finding his next of kin and where he had 286 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: moved from. So again like very prominent. 287 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: You know. 288 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 3: Obviously in Baltimore there was often gang affiliation tattoos on 289 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,239 Speaker 3: the bodies, but it can tell you about the person's background, 290 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,359 Speaker 3: where they came from, what they're associated their lifestyle. 291 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: Sometimes. 292 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 3: You know, the cool thing in Rhode Island is I 293 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 3: often see sports tattoos, right, Patriots, Boston brew and Celtics, 294 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: Like you just know that they're you know, avid sports fans, right. 295 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: Sometimes I see the Italian flag to represent their heritage. 296 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 3: So even things like that can be so important to 297 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 3: someone's identity and then help us connect the dots as 298 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 3: well and. 299 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: Hate group affiliation. We see the double lightning bolts, swastickers, whatever, 300 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: So again it's gonna tell us about the person. My 301 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: police department is next to the busiest airport in the world, 302 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: and we had a young man that was shot and 303 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: killed and he had no idea with him and the 304 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: license plate the car was from California, so they were like, oh, 305 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, where did he come from Well, I saw 306 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: a tattoo on his forearm that was zone three and 307 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: I was like, he's from Atlanta period. I can tell 308 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: you we may not know who he is, but I 309 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: can't tell you where he's from. 310 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 3: I had a very memorable autopsy as a fellow in 311 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: training in Baltimore. We served the entire state of Maryland, 312 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 3: and there was a young man that had overdosed in prison. 313 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 3: So it wasn't it was, you know, suspicious because it 314 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 3: was a jail death, if you will, like we treated 315 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 3: very intricately, but he had swastikas all over him. And 316 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 3: I said, wow, this is rather ironic that an African 317 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 3: American technician and myself are doing the autop season. 318 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: You know it. 319 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 3: It made me Paul and think, you know what, for me, 320 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 3: this is an You know, it doesn't change my mindset. 321 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 3: I'm doing as thorough as a job, but it's humbling 322 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 3: when I think, wow, he would have hated me. But 323 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: I'm doing everything I can to find out why he 324 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: passed away, you know, so you just have to put 325 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 3: that aside. But yes, you know, it was very telling 326 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 3: from which group he was affiliated with and in that 327 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 3: prison system. 328 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: Well, doctor Priya, thank you thank you, Thank you. I 329 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: feel like you were one of those teammates that every 330 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: single detective needs. 331 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 2: Oh well, that's that's like I'm humbled. Yeah, it's truth. 332 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you're you're like minded, you're you know, you're 333 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: on the same page as far as you know, respecting 334 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: this body, respecting this life that was lost, and what 335 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: can we gain, what information, what intelligence to find the 336 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: truth to what happened. So I appreciate you, well, thank 337 00:17:59,359 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: you for that. 338 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, that was probably one of the 339 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 3: highlights of my career was building relationships with law enforcement 340 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 3: and attorney generals. And you know, I could call them 341 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 3: and ask them a question. They can call me, Hey, Doc, 342 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 3: I want to curbside you, because right we're all working together. 343 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 3: And sometimes I'll say, oh, you're off base, But they 344 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 3: know I don't mean that in a negative way. I'm 345 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: just saying, oh, we're not going down the right pathway, 346 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 3: like this is why I think we should consider something else. 347 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that I'm being critical, you know. 348 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: So to have those working relationships is so important. And 349 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 3: you know, now I've stepped away from that role as 350 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 3: my primary rule, but I do a lot of legal 351 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 3: consulting and I still do autopsies, both for other medical 352 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 3: examiner's offices and you know, privately, and I'm still educating 353 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 3: and consulting, and sometimes the lawyers, I'm like, you're way 354 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 3: off base, Like that's not how this works. You can't 355 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 3: make these assumptions, so you got to reel them back in, 356 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 3: you know, so the you know, that's I think where 357 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 3: our eyes are trained to a much different level than 358 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 3: you know, what people might see on TV or expect, 359 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 3: you know, this kind of like, no, you can't just 360 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 3: measure the skin and say it's this millimeter bullet. That's 361 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 3: not how it works, you know, just for example. And 362 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 3: so that's where are like piecing the puzzle together and 363 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 3: then translating it for people is so important. 364 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: Amen. Well, I appreciate you, and I will talk to 365 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:32,719 Speaker 1: you next Monday. 366 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 3: Yes, thank you so much. See you next time or 367 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 3: talk to you next time.