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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B. Wilson

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Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Friday. One of our episodes this week

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Speaker 1: was on Ellen Sweller Richards and as I said at

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Speaker 1: the end of the episode, I wish there had not

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Speaker 1: been so much eugenics in there. And there's just like

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Speaker 1: I just I have a hard time sometimes articulating just

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Speaker 1: how mainstream those ideas were. Like there were textbooks, your

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Speaker 1: regular high school textbook that just laid out eugenics as

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Speaker 1: though it was accepted fact, and like a lot of

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Speaker 1: the same groups that the movement targeted as inferior also

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Speaker 1: adopted those same ideas for their own improvement. Like no

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Speaker 1: group is a monolith. There were of course people in

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Speaker 1: every group that were like this is maybe not the

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Speaker 1: best plan, but it was just everywhere. And so there

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Speaker 1: are so many people that you will research, especially at

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Speaker 1: the end of the nineteenth and early twentieth century, and

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Speaker 1: you'll be like, this person was really cool. Oh no eugenics,

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Speaker 1: and so much about euthenics was also like all about

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Speaker 1: preserving clean water and clean air and having adequate ventilation

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Speaker 1: and indoor spaces, which sure has revealed itself to be

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Speaker 1: incredibly important over the last years of a pandemic. But

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Speaker 1: then also like there's just a thread of like and

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Speaker 1: we're going to improve the race with this, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, what if what if we didn't? Right? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because, as you said, it was very accepted,

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Speaker 1: but I think what we don't often acknowledge is that

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Speaker 1: it was also lauded for how smart and like progressive

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Speaker 1: it was. Is. Yeah, so I always think of things

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Speaker 1: like that when we tackle stuff today and we're like,

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Speaker 1: this is the new ideology. Let's go. I'm like, will

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Speaker 1: it be this way forever? Though, well, the most terrific

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Speaker 1: parts of the eugenics movement were after she had died. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: like I think that they're like there were some like

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Speaker 1: sterilization programs that I think did start before she died,

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Speaker 1: but it was really after it where after she had

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Speaker 1: died that like that became widespread and then obviously like

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Speaker 1: the whole Nazi race science and eugenics program was after

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Speaker 1: her death by a lot. But those core ideas that

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Speaker 1: like there are people who deserve to have children and

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Speaker 1: other people who shouldn't have children, like It's just we

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Speaker 1: could have instead spent so much time recognizing that humanity

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Speaker 1: has like we all have innate worth rights and and

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Speaker 1: maybe instead of thinking about like which people should be

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Speaker 1: having children and which people should not have children, like instead,

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Speaker 1: we could have been spending all of that time and

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Speaker 1: energy talking about how to make society accessible and welcoming

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Speaker 1: to everybody. But like that, Oh not icy, that's not

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Speaker 1: and like the same same idea is about like encouraging

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Speaker 1: the right people like that. You they still come up today,

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Speaker 1: like I remember, they're just being a big feurer. Maybe

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago that was about how the educated people

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Speaker 1: aren't having enough children, and I was just like, this

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Speaker 1: is eugenics, Like right, eugenics again, I mean that gets

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Speaker 1: said all the time. Yeah, still that's ongoing. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how to how to help those people. No,

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Speaker 1: I did chuckle to myself when we talked about her

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Speaker 1: early learnings in maintaining an efficient, orderly and well kept home.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what's that? Like, I don't Yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: sort of thinking. When I first lived in my own apartment,

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Speaker 1: I kept it very clean, and I would start Saturday morning.

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Speaker 1: I had like a cleaning ritual that I would clean

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Speaker 1: the rooms of my apartment, but I was also living

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Speaker 1: by myself, and it was like technically a two bedroom apartment,

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Speaker 1: but I used one bedroom as the bedroom and the

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Speaker 1: other bedroom was like a home office computer room type space.

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Speaker 1: And I'm mostly the thing. I just didn't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff. Yeah, I was living on my own

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Speaker 1: for the first time, and I had like furniture that

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Speaker 1: had come out of my parents' basement or which some

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Speaker 1: generous neighbors sold to me for very cheap, and I

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Speaker 1: like that. They're just we're not a lot of possessions

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Speaker 1: in my home. And now you know, twenty seven years

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Speaker 1: have passed and there's just all this stuff everywhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we have we have piles and we collect a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff. So our house is like a crazy phone

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Speaker 1: house the time. Um, you described your house to me

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Speaker 1: one time when we were we had just met, as

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Speaker 1: if Sanford and Son were really creative. That's sort of accurate.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've been really making like a more progressive

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Speaker 1: approach over the years to like, okay, but how do

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Speaker 1: we take this? Uh? And for me, I've realized, like

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Speaker 1: I tend to have a very all or nothing approach,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't work right, Like, you can't because then things

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Speaker 1: will like get set up, and the second they get

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Speaker 1: a little askew, I'm like, well that didn't work. I

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Speaker 1: don't it's ruined. Um. Right now, I am in the

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Speaker 1: middle of a fairly significant closet overhaul, which anyone who

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Speaker 1: knows me knows that's a lot. Yeah, where I'm trying to.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to cull the collection

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Speaker 1: because I have a lot of clothes. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: have clothes I've had since I was thirteen, sure, and

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Speaker 1: some of them I will keep, but others I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I got this T shirt at like a five K

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Speaker 1: that I dropped into like day before. I don't need

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Speaker 1: to Yeah, why do I have this shirt? But it's

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Speaker 1: I have realized though, that if I am a little

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Speaker 1: more generous with myself and go listen, just do a

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Speaker 1: little bit each day, you're fine. It's actually way easier

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Speaker 1: to just maintain things than if I were being quite

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Speaker 1: so stringent and like, no, you must do everything and

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Speaker 1: overhaul though, I'm like, all right, it's fine. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well that was one of the other things about that

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Speaker 1: first apartment is that I moved in in a process

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Speaker 1: that took like a couple trips with a pickup truck.

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Speaker 1: And the reason it took more than one trip was

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Speaker 1: because my parents let me take my old bedroom furniture

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Speaker 1: from my childhood bedroom and so like we didn't rent

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Speaker 1: a U haul or anything. Six couple trips in the

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Speaker 1: pickup to do it. Yeah, So that meant that, like,

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Speaker 1: once I was unpacked, everything was clean and it was

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Speaker 1: easy to keep it clean. Even with three cats in

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Speaker 1: that apartment, it was able to it was able to

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Speaker 1: pretty much keep it clean. Something that we didn't get

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Speaker 1: into you in this episode because we have gotten into

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Speaker 1: it in other episodes about home economics as a field

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Speaker 1: is that there's kind of multiple ways to look at

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Speaker 1: it in terms of the effect that it had on women,

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Speaker 1: because home economics programs made a college education a lot

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Speaker 1: more accessible to a lot more women, especially women whose

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Speaker 1: families would have objected to their idea of going to college,

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Speaker 1: but since they were going to college to study home economics, like,

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Speaker 1: it was more acceptable. But also there are arguments that

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Speaker 1: home economics as a field like further focused immen's lives

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Speaker 1: on the domestic field right like on the sphere of

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Speaker 1: homemaking and child rearing and things like that, and like

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Speaker 1: we didn't we didn't get into that as much in

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Speaker 1: this episode, both because we had talked about it and

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Speaker 1: in episodes that are still fairly new compared to the

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Speaker 1: Hall archive, but then also because like this was toward

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Speaker 1: the end of her career when she had spent so

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Speaker 1: much of her time focused on education for women outside

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Speaker 1: of that sphere of economics. Like, I loved the part

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Speaker 1: about her becoming head of the science section for correspondence

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Speaker 1: courses to make it possible for all kinds of people

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Speaker 1: to study that they would not have had otherwise. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love that. It also reminded me a bit of

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Speaker 1: when we did the interview about Sears and talked about

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Speaker 1: how mail order opened up like consumer purchasing to people

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Speaker 1: who had been discriminated against in stores. Yeah. I still

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Speaker 1: that's still probably the most mind blowing moment I've ever

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Speaker 1: had on this show. Yeah, because I just never thought

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Speaker 1: about it until Jared said, like, no, that's yeah. Why

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Speaker 1: That's why Sears was so popular with black customers for

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Speaker 1: so long, because it was the one place they knew

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Speaker 1: that like they had they could go for mail order

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Speaker 1: and not have to deal with being stared at or

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Speaker 1: treated as though they were unworthy or going to do

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Speaker 1: something wrong in the store, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: my goodness, that is obviously my privileged white perspective. Ever

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Speaker 1: took that into account, makes all the sense on earth. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So anyway, keep picking people to talk about on the

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Speaker 1: show that turn out to be complicated, well, because that's

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Speaker 1: what humans are. Yeah. And I knew there was going

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Speaker 1: to be complications with Ellen Swaller Richards because I already

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Speaker 1: knew like how much of the whole economics movement was

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Speaker 1: connected to eugenics and other issues. But yeah, part of

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Speaker 1: me wanted to take a little field trip over to

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Speaker 1: her house on and Jamaica plane. But I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: it's just somebody's private residence now, and that felt creepy. Hi.

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Speaker 1: We talked about the frustrating story. I'm Eliza Fending. We

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Speaker 1: did on a lighter note because I always like to

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Speaker 1: talk about food. Huh, what is chicken and dumplings to you?

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Speaker 1: Or what do you called dumplings? Okay? Well I called

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Speaker 1: dumplings two different things. Okay. There are dumplings that are

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Speaker 1: a shell made of dough that is stuffed with something

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Speaker 1: and is steamed or fried right more in the Asian cuisine.

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Speaker 1: Yet dumplings are also yeah, this is what I were,

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Speaker 1: like a biscuity type thing that is like topped onto

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Speaker 1: like chicken and dumplings is like chicken and also like

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Speaker 1: these like peas and carrots and onions and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: and also a broth and then these things that are

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Speaker 1: more like a Doughey, maybe biscuity is not like little

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Speaker 1: like but portions of dough put on top of that

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Speaker 1: and then it all goes into the oven so that

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Speaker 1: it's sort of simultaneously poached in the liquid and maybe

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Speaker 1: baked a little bit on the top. When my mom

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Speaker 1: would make chicken and dumplings when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: the dumpling parts, I think were always like totally submerged

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Speaker 1: in the liquid during the cooking, and they just they

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Speaker 1: were doeier and not as delicious to me as when

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Speaker 1: my husband does it and they go on top not

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Speaker 1: exactly like a crust, but kind of I feel like

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Speaker 1: this is very a very long winded description. This is

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Speaker 1: like all I want all of this. It's uh. When

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Speaker 1: it gets to be really cold weather, I'm often like,

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Speaker 1: when are we having chicken and dumplings. What if you

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Speaker 1: made chicken and dumplings tonight? Um. Growing up, I think

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Speaker 1: my mom made up what chicken and dumplings were, okay,

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Speaker 1: because she would do them like in the pan, and

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Speaker 1: she would make like a very biscuity dough and the

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Speaker 1: same pan that she had fried chicken in. She would

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Speaker 1: just drop that dough in with them towards the end

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Speaker 1: and let them puff up, and you got these nice

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Speaker 1: like buttery heads of chicken grease in them like biscuits. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: that sounds really good and delicious, unlike anything, unlike anything

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen anybody else do. But that's what I

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Speaker 1: grew up with. And then we moved to the South,

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Speaker 1: and I remember being at a restaurant and seeing chicken

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Speaker 1: and dumplings on the menu, and I ordered it, and

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Speaker 1: when it came and it was like submerged dumplings and

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Speaker 1: what appeared to be a stew, I was just like,

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Speaker 1: what is this gloss? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. When Patrick does it,

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Speaker 1: it's like, uh, occasionally they come out heavy, which is

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Speaker 1: the term that's used in here. With the dumplings. They

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Speaker 1: were allegedly poisoned, like when something has gone not quite

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Speaker 1: right in the mixing process. Occasionally they will come out

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Speaker 1: of in a way that we both describe as too heavy.

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Speaker 1: But I find them to be really delicious because they

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Speaker 1: have like that more Doughey almost poached texture, but there's

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Speaker 1: often like a more biscuity, crispy top layer two. It delicious,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's I find it very very yummy. And

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm going to text him right now and when

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Speaker 1: when are we having chicken and dumplings? Yeah, there's you know,

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Speaker 1: if the yeast doesn't interact properly with the gluten or

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Speaker 1: any of the sugars in it, like it will get

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Speaker 1: really heavy. They won't puff up and be beautiful. And

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Speaker 1: there was a point where Eliza mentioned during one of

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Speaker 1: her statements that the yeast kind of left this weird

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Speaker 1: red residue which she thought was poisoned. But I think

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Speaker 1: like your yeast was just not active anymore. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: other thing that gets me. Let me tell you about

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Speaker 1: the villain in this story in my book, because it

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Speaker 1: is Charlotte Turner. Yeah. I don't think Charlotte Turner did

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Speaker 1: the poisoning. I think Robert did it, but I think

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Speaker 1: Charlotte covered it up for him. And I was also

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Speaker 1: a witch because there's a whole thing that I didn't

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Speaker 1: include here where she just like hovered over Eliza, who

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Speaker 1: was a cook, she had been cooking professionally for like

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Speaker 1: years at this point, whereas Charlotte was not, and she

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Speaker 1: was like a newlywed wife hovering over her, telling her

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Speaker 1: how to do every step, and I'm like, I know

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Speaker 1: you're technically the boss would get out, yeah yeah. And

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Speaker 1: it was actually Charlotte that insisted that milk went into

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Speaker 1: the sauce because Eliza I was like, I'm making, I'm

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Speaker 1: not making that, We're doing like a gravy kind of sauce,

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Speaker 1: and She's like, no milk in the sauce, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm like suspicious. I make the Simpson's Dog suspicious eye face. Allegedly,

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Speaker 1: the doctor John Marshall did get John Joseph Hume, who

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Speaker 1: was developing ways to test for arsenic involved, and he

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Speaker 1: did in his test determined that it was arsenic, although

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Speaker 1: it seemed like John Marshall kind of like got there

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Speaker 1: before he had done any of the testing, like he

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Speaker 1: was kind of looking to support his assumed thesis instead

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Speaker 1: of really doing the scientific method where you try to

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Speaker 1: prove it by disproving it essentially, but yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: little bit weird. John Marshall also wrote a pamphlet after

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Speaker 1: Eliza had been executed that is essentially a smear campaign

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Speaker 1: against her. It's completely opposite to the way most accounts

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Speaker 1: and recordings of things she has said and her letters

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Speaker 1: and like the way that press reporters found her. He

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Speaker 1: makes her sound like this really braddy shrew who just

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Speaker 1: barks at everybody, and it's like so discordant to every

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Speaker 1: other account we have of her behavior and her temperament

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Speaker 1: that it's like, dude, no, yeah, I haven't even gotten

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Speaker 1: to the gross part, okay, which is Sylvester the Judge

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Speaker 1: because he was known as a hanging judge. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: just loved to prosecute people. There were a lot of

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Speaker 1: those in Britain during this era, yes for sure. And

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Speaker 1: he also had a really horrible reputation for demanding sexual

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Speaker 1: favors of women who came to him for help. And

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, you're the grossest of gross. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We've had a couple of episodes before and we've talked

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Speaker 1: about how the justice system worked in Britain over the

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Speaker 1: eighteenth and nineteenth centuries and other periods too, But like

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Speaker 1: we've we've talked about several things that have been related

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Speaker 1: to like how often it really was just stacked against

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Speaker 1: whoever was the defendant, Like the there was just a

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Speaker 1: presumption that this was rubber stamping the fact that the

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Speaker 1: person who had been accused was guilty. And this was

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Speaker 1: maybe fifty years or so prior to this was when

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Speaker 1: we talked about women being transported to Australia to try

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Speaker 1: to offset the gender imbalance in the convicted men that

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Speaker 1: were being transported to Australia, and like how many people

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Speaker 1: were being transported for and just incredibly minor alleged defense

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Speaker 1: is like stealing somebody's underwear off the clothesline like that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So this is a way bigger case

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Speaker 1: because it's like possibly an attempted murder, right, But like

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Speaker 1: I saw just a lot of the same traits in

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Speaker 1: the way that the trial played out. Yeah, there is

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Speaker 1: also a detail that comes up in the most scant

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Speaker 1: mentions isn't focused on, at least in none of the

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Speaker 1: documents or information that was available to me, that Charlotte

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Speaker 1: Turner was apparently pregnant when all of this happened, and

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Speaker 1: it didn't impact her pregnancy negatively to the best of

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Speaker 1: our knowledge. But like you would think that would be

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Speaker 1: a huge focus, right, right, she tried to poison a

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Speaker 1: pregnant woman, but it never seems to come up or

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Speaker 1: it was just not recorded properly in court documents, because

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Speaker 1: that is also a thing. Yeah, that was very common. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, they weren't getting everything word for word for sure,

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Speaker 1: and there there were mentions in some I read a

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Speaker 1: couple of different books that talked about this trial, and

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Speaker 1: there is like an acknowledgement that eventually, like between arraignment

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Speaker 1: and like the old Bailey trial, that people would have

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Speaker 1: eventually those documents would carry over, like the statements from

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Speaker 1: the arraignment would make their way to the trial. But

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Speaker 1: that wasn't always happening at this point, so it was

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Speaker 1: a lot harder to catch in consistencies, a lot harder

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Speaker 1: to have a basis to go off of on other

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Speaker 1: records to like prompt questions. So weird. One of the

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Speaker 1: other things that came up for me is we were

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Speaker 1: recording this, like it's clear that some of the things

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Speaker 1: that were done to determine whether there was arsenic present

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Speaker 1: were specious at best, and like, that's not over. There

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Speaker 1: continue to be all kinds of like forensic methods that

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Speaker 1: have been used to convict people and in some cases

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Speaker 1: execute people that turn out to just not hold up

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Speaker 1: at all. Like I remember a whole case where a

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Speaker 1: man had been convicted of arson in a fire that

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Speaker 1: killed his children, and there were all these things about

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Speaker 1: the burn patterns on the floor that the prosecution was like, you,

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Speaker 1: this is evidence that there was an accelerant drift in

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Speaker 1: all these places, and then they did the fire department

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Speaker 1: later did like a training burn of the house next door,

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Speaker 1: with part of the purpose being seeing if the same

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Speaker 1: thing held up when they knew for sure what was

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Speaker 1: used in the house, and it was like the exact

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Speaker 1: same burn patterns were present when no accelerant had been used.

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Speaker 1: And it's like they're just keep being things like that

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Speaker 1: coming up, where a lot of things that have been

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Speaker 1: sort of accepted as evidence work out to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's not actually how that works, right. Yes, there is

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Speaker 1: some interesting speculation that was going on at the time

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Speaker 1: and has been expounded upon by some other writers right

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Speaker 1: up through you know, modern writing, that this whole thing

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Speaker 1: was actually kind of intended to send a message to

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Speaker 1: the servant class, like at a time when there was

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Speaker 1: starting to be some mobility going on of like stay

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Speaker 1: in your place, right, don't sess because we can literally

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Speaker 1: have you kilt, yeah, which is terrifying. And I also

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Speaker 1: wonder though, too, there's this whole other tertiary thing that

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Speaker 1: I found myself thinking about while I was making dinner

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Speaker 1: last night, of We've talked about it many times on

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Speaker 1: the show before. People can convince themselves of things that

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Speaker 1: are not true or real sure, and so I really

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Speaker 1: do part of me also wonders if this is not

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Speaker 1: a case where like or Labar introduced the idea of like,

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Speaker 1: I think we were all poisoned, and then they're all like,

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Speaker 1: Eliza must have poisoned us, and then they're just backing

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Speaker 1: that up in their head without even really consciously doing so,

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Speaker 1: where they're like, it does all make sense. This is

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Speaker 1: the only possible thing, and it's like, well, you've just

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Speaker 1: literally condemned a person because you got spun up on

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Speaker 1: an idea that someone introduced. There was also a something

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Speaker 1: that was pointed out in some of the writings of

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Speaker 1: the day that made me very very sad, which is

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Speaker 1: that you know, Eliza's father had been a soldier that

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Speaker 1: served with honor for the military, for the government, and

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Speaker 1: like he had no like no one seemed to care

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Speaker 1: about any of that or respect any of that as

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Speaker 1: he was fighting to like save his daughter, to pay

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Speaker 1: for his daughter's body, etc. It's just like a weird

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Speaker 1: you know, that kind of thing where people treat other

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Speaker 1: humans as like disposable, even if they have been very

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Speaker 1: integral to something they have done. It's frustrating anyway. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: I'm in a very murdery space in my research lately,

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Speaker 1: so there might be more things like this. This was

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Speaker 1: in case anyone is curious, a case that came up

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Speaker 1: when we were breaking the first season of Criminalia and

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Speaker 1: we were like, no, she's not actually a lady poisoner.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so, we can't. But I really really

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Speaker 1: was intrigued by her story, which is why we are

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Speaker 1: here just cross pollinating. It works out great. If this

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Speaker 1: is your weekend coming up, I hope that nothing horrible

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Speaker 1: happens to you or by you, and that you have

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Speaker 1: a RESTful time and you take care of yourself and

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Speaker 1: others as much as as possible. And if you don't

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Speaker 1: have time, off. I hope that you still manage to

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Speaker 1: carve out a little space for yourself to eat something

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Speaker 1: delicious and wholesome that has nothing tainted in it whatsoever,

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Speaker 1: and just to rest and relax and rejuvenate your mind,

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Speaker 1: body and spirit. We will be right back here tomorrow

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Speaker 1: with a classic episode, and then on Monday there'll be

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Speaker 1: another new one. Stuff you Missed in History Class is

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows.