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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to you Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 3: four in our series on predators in the deep and

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Speaker 3: Dark parts of the Ocean. Now, if you're new to

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Speaker 3: the show or new to the series as usual, we

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Speaker 3: would recommend you go back and start with part one

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Speaker 3: of the series called Hunters of the Dark Ocean Part

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Speaker 3: one and listen through to catch back up and then

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Speaker 3: return to meet us here once again. But also if

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Speaker 3: you just want to start here, that's fine. This isn't

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Speaker 3: one of those where it's absolutely crucial to take them

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Speaker 3: in order. But for a brief recap of previous episodes,

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Speaker 3: we talked about how the ocean can be thought of

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Speaker 3: as having different environments or zones stacked vertically on one another, which,

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Speaker 3: according to their depth, have different conditions. Closer to the surface,

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Speaker 3: of course, there's more warmth, less pressure, more access to

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Speaker 3: sunlight for phytoplankton to feast on, and thus more access

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Speaker 3: to food all the way up the chain, and then

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Speaker 3: as you go deeper, the waters get colder, darker, pressure,

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Speaker 3: goes up, food resources become more scarce or at least

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Speaker 3: less dense. And what this means is that much like

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Speaker 3: how terrestrial animals are evolved to live in one type

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Speaker 3: of environment and not another, marine organisms are usually adapted

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Speaker 3: not just to the ocean or seawater, but to a

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Speaker 3: specific zone of the ocean. So kind of like how

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Speaker 3: you're not going to find jaguars living in the middle

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Speaker 3: of the Sahara. You don't find the frosted flatwood salamander

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Speaker 3: in the Midwest prairie. You also don't find tuna living

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Speaker 3: in deep ocean trenches like eight thousand meters down. And

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Speaker 3: there are some adventurous boundary crossers, but most ocean fauna

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Speaker 3: are adapted to a fairly specific depth range, and the

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Speaker 3: majority of those animals do live near the surface, where

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Speaker 3: conditions are less extreme and resources are more plentiful. But

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Speaker 3: in this series, we are interested in the creatures that

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Speaker 3: can be found farther down in the darker parts of

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Speaker 3: the ocean, from the sort of twilight and midnight midwaters,

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Speaker 3: all the way down to the abyssal planes on the

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Speaker 3: ocean floor and even further down into deep sea trenches. Specifically,

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Speaker 3: we have been looking at predators in these environments now.

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Speaker 3: In Part one, we talked about a recently discovered species

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Speaker 3: of ghostly predatory crustacean from almost eight thousand meters down

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Speaker 3: in the Atacama Trench of the Southeastern Pacific. This new

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Speaker 3: species and genus was announced in a paper in November

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, and that example sent us off examining

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Speaker 3: the positively wacky body forms of crustaceans called amphipods the

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Speaker 3: order to which this animal belongs, especially their deep sea varieties,

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Speaker 3: some of which had major toxic jungle charisma, others were

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Speaker 3: a little more like dead Dreamer in the Nightmare City,

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Speaker 3: the shapes seep down from the stars, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: We also talked about giant predatory siphonophores, extremely weird and

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Speaker 3: amazing organisms that really defy our common understanding of what

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Speaker 3: it means for a creature to have or be a body,

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Speaker 3: and we discussed probable sightings of an unidentified predatory cephonophor

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Speaker 3: in a deep ocean trench environment. In Part two, we

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Speaker 3: looked at a somewhat obscure abysslefish known as the grid

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Speaker 3: eye fish, which was notable to me because of its

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Speaker 3: bizarre neon yellow bean shaped eye cups, and then after

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Speaker 3: that we talked about a couple of cephalopods, the strawberry

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Speaker 3: squid with its interesting midwater camouflage methods and a kind

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Speaker 3: of bifurcated method of sight, one eye specializing in seeing

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Speaker 3: shadows from above and other eye specializing in biological self

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Speaker 3: illumination from below. And we also talked about oh grimpo

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Speaker 3: tooth is the mbo octopus, durable little octopod who seems

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Speaker 3: to have forsaken many of the biological self defense options

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Speaker 3: evolved by its cephalopod kin in exchange for adapting to

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Speaker 3: deeper waters where it has less pressure from its own predators.

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Speaker 3: And in part three we talked about snail fishes. These

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Speaker 3: are a big player, big deal in the deep ocean

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Speaker 3: family of fishes that can be found in the form

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Speaker 3: of many deep adapted species, including the deepest swimming fish

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Speaker 3: ever convincingly documented by science, at least as of now.

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Speaker 3: The deep dwelling varieties of snailfish often look like fat, slimy, pale,

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Speaker 3: pink tadpoles with translucent skin. In the words of one article,

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Speaker 3: we talked about guts wrapped in cellophane in my observation,

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Speaker 3: kind often like a wad of sea through chewing gum

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Speaker 3: with a tail, but when the angles were just right.

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Speaker 3: Of course, as you pointed out, rob they can also

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Speaker 3: be surprisingly cute, with kind of plaid said unassuming eye

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Speaker 3: spots making them look like a creature of the hundred

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Speaker 3: acre wood. Yes, yes, but one whose skin is dissolving.

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Speaker 3: But despite looking either like a half dissolved a meal

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Speaker 3: from RoboCop or like a cute little piglet fish, it

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Speaker 3: turns out snail fishes are the top predators of many

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Speaker 3: deep ocean trench environments, so they eat amphipod, scavengers and

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Speaker 3: other little animal forms you find down there. They're kind

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Speaker 3: of the kings and queens of the underworld. Oh and

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Speaker 3: also there is good reason for suspecting there's some of

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Speaker 3: the worst smelling fish on Earth. We discussed in that

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Speaker 3: episode why that is likely the case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, with science, this is not just a they look smelly.

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Speaker 2: In the discussion, there's actual science to back this up.

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Speaker 3: After talking about snail fishes, we also looked at anglerfish,

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Speaker 3: a beautiful monster of a marine predator. Actually, an anglerfish

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Speaker 3: is not just one species, also a very diverse group

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Speaker 3: that has a lot of different varieties, but it has

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Speaker 3: its own deep adapted varieties as well. And there are

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Speaker 3: so many things that make anglerfish interesting, not just how

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Speaker 3: gorgeously cartoon grotesque they look, or at least in some

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Speaker 3: of their forms, you know, with the jail bar teeth

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Speaker 3: and the doom cute prey lure. There are also really

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Speaker 3: interesting questions about their relationship with the bacteria they farm

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Speaker 3: to create their glowing lure, how do they acquire these bacteria,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. And also we talked about their truly amazing

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Speaker 3: mating and reproduction practices, with the tiny male grafting its

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Speaker 3: body onto that of the much larger female to become

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Speaker 3: a kind of carry along sperm dispenser, which itself requires

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Speaker 3: interesting adaptations. For example, in the anglerfish immune system, how

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Speaker 3: does the anglerfish avoid rejecting the grafted male's tissue and

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Speaker 3: could knowledge of this sort be used to improve outcomes

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Speaker 3: for organ transplants and other related issues in human medicine. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: that's all the previous episodes. Today we're back to round

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Speaker 3: out the discussion of dark ocean predators with our fourth

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Speaker 3: and final part.

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Speaker 2: That's right now, before we jump into a full discussion

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Speaker 2: on our selections. Here, I do have a quick example

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Speaker 2: I want to point out because it's an extreme example

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Speaker 2: of something we discussed previously. The advantage in the deep

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Speaker 2: water is in the dark ocean of having an oversized

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Speaker 2: stomach that allows you to consume all you can eat

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Speaker 2: when a rare meal presents itself. And this brings us

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Speaker 2: to the black swallower. This is the rare fish that

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Speaker 2: can swallow a fish bigger than itself via distensable stomach.

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Speaker 4: You might be.

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Speaker 2: Tempted to imagine like a fish with a like a

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Speaker 2: beer belly that is not severe enough for what can

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Speaker 2: occur here. Joe I included an illustration in a photo here,

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Speaker 2: and I encourage everyone out there, when it's safe to

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Speaker 2: do so, look up, look up some images of the

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Speaker 2: black swallow or fish, and it is. It's pretty amazing.

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Speaker 2: So essentially, it has a stomach the balloons up enough

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Speaker 2: to contain a fish twice its own length and ten

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Speaker 2: times its own mass.

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Speaker 3: It looks like a sardine with like a small mattress

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Speaker 3: folded up on its stomach.

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Speaker 2: If this were not actually real, it would seem grotesque

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Speaker 2: enough that it had to be, you know, something out

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Speaker 2: of the human imagination. It's just it looks bizarre, just

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Speaker 2: this stomach stuffed with an oversized fish, a fish larger

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Speaker 2: than itself. And there are various discussions in the literature

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Speaker 2: of like how does it actually eat the fish? How

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Speaker 2: does it like walk its jaws up the body of

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Speaker 2: the fish that it is consumed.

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Speaker 3: It is true, it's hard to understand how what you're

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Speaker 3: looking at is real, especially and you shared a couple

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Speaker 3: of images rob one is like an illustration, but the

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Speaker 3: other is like a photo.

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Speaker 4: Of I think.

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Speaker 3: I guess one of these ate something a little too

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Speaker 3: big for its own good, and it's like a much

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Speaker 3: larger fish inside the smaller fish's belly. I don't understand

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Speaker 3: how it got that in there, but.

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Speaker 2: You are right, it is possible for these fish to

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Speaker 2: eat something that's too big. And here's the crazy detail

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Speaker 2: on all of that. Apparently most of the specimens of

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Speaker 2: black swallower that scientists have studied, they've made their way

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Speaker 2: to the surface because the fish in question apparently ate

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Speaker 2: another fish too big for it to digest before decomposition

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Speaker 2: set in on their meal. So, in other words, they're

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Speaker 2: two large meals rotted in their giant gut before their

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Speaker 2: stomach could break it down, resulting in all those decomposition

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Speaker 2: gases turning the fish into a surface bound rock balloon,

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Speaker 2: which just takes them out of their deep water habitat

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Speaker 2: right up to the surface, killing them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. You don't want that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I just had to bring this one up

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Speaker 2: because the deep ocean, as we discussed it, is a

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Speaker 2: place sometimes of extremes, and here is an extreme example

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Speaker 2: via deep water evolution of an oversized stomach to allow

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Speaker 2: these individuals to eat all they can when a meal

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Speaker 2: presents itself.

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Speaker 3: Now, I do have a particular deep sea predatory species

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Speaker 3: that I briefly want to talk about later in this episode,

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Speaker 3: but before we get to that, there was something that

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Speaker 3: I found really interesting, a sort of research trail I

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Speaker 3: went down that I'd like to mention, and that is

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Speaker 3: on the question is it just us or do fish

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Speaker 3: actually get measurably.

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Speaker 4: Weirder in deeper water?

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Speaker 3: And I think the answer is it's not just us

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Speaker 3: if you define weird as possessing more unusual and diverse

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Speaker 3: body shapes. Yes, there is research suggesting that fish in deeper,

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Speaker 3: darker waters tend to have more diverse distributions of body

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Speaker 3: forms in other words, they're undergoing more wildly experimental evolutionary

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Speaker 3: pathways than the fish in shallower, more abundant waters. Where

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Speaker 3: it's not that there's no diversity. There is diversity in

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Speaker 3: shallower waters, but you'll find a lot more fish there,

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Speaker 3: all doing the same thing with their bodies.

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Speaker 2: Whereas in the deep they're getting weirder, or in the

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Speaker 2: words of David Lynch, they're becoming more pure.

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Speaker 3: So this is according to a paper I was reading

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Speaker 3: published in twenty twenty one in the journal Ecology Letters

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Speaker 3: by Martinez at All, called the deep sea is a

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Speaker 3: hot spot of fish body shape evolution, and in their abstract,

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Speaker 3: the authors introduce this idea by writing, quote, deep sea

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Speaker 3: fishes have long captured our imagination with striking adaptations to

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Speaker 3: life in the mysterious abyss, raising the possibility that this cold,

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Speaker 3: dark ocean region may be a key hub for physiological

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Speaker 3: and functional diversification. We explore this idea through an analysis

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Speaker 3: of body shape evolution across ocean depth zones in over

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Speaker 3: three thousand species of marine teleost fishes. So what did

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Speaker 3: the survey yield? Well, yes, the authors found that quote

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Speaker 3: morphological disparity of marine fish body plants incrementally increases nearly

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Speaker 3: two fold from ocean surface layers to the deep sea. Now,

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Speaker 3: how do you measure morphological disparity that variable they're looking

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Speaker 3: at there, Well, they looked at all these different species

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Speaker 3: of fish, thousands of different species from different parts of

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Speaker 3: the ocean, and they compared a bunch of different measures,

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Speaker 3: so basic body dimensions, length, depth and width, jaw size,

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Speaker 3: head size, size of what's called the caudal peduncle basically

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Speaker 3: the fleshy, tapering heart of the fish leading to the

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Speaker 3: tail fin kind of the bridge to the tail. And

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Speaker 3: they used these measurements to create a sort of graph

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Speaker 3: or morpho space for the fish found in each zone.

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Speaker 3: And what they found was that in shallower waters, while

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Speaker 3: there is plenty of diversity, the body forms of different

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Speaker 3: fish species tend on average to be more clustered around

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Speaker 3: a standard kind of optimized design. There's just a lot

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Speaker 3: more sameness.

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Speaker 4: Quote.

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Speaker 3: Fishes in the shallow depth zone had a large overall

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Speaker 3: range in body shapes, but a majority of these species

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Speaker 3: were found in high density within a small region of

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Speaker 3: the morphospace. These species were centered on a fusiform or

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Speaker 3: spindle shaped body typified by snappers or Lutianity and Raba

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Speaker 3: included a picture of a snapper for you to look

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Speaker 3: at in the outline here. So this is going to

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Speaker 3: be the basic body shape of the on average optimized

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Speaker 3: shallow water fish. There's gonna be just a a ton

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Speaker 3: of fish that are shaped basically like this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good body shape. They're not gonna shame

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Speaker 2: this fish. The fish looks good, but it is very

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Speaker 2: identifiable as a fish. This fish photo could be on

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Speaker 2: the Wikipedia page for fish.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's not gonna freak anybody out. This is

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Speaker 3: not suggesting deep, strange or again, in Lynch's words, purity. However,

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Speaker 3: in the intermediate depth zone, so you go down below

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Speaker 3: the surface area, while this body shape is still sort

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Speaker 3: of found, this fusiform body shape, there is a good

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Speaker 3: bit more diversity. Body forms are less clustered around this

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Speaker 3: common design and more spread out on the morphospace graph.

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Speaker 3: And interestingly, quote, it is at these intermediate depths that

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Speaker 3: a body plan almost nonexistent in shallow waters begins to appear,

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Speaker 3: and that is quote species with elongated and tapered tails.

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Speaker 3: So it's interesting we've mentioned a couple of abyssle and

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Speaker 3: hatelfish fish in the deepest deepest parts of the ocean,

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Speaker 3: the Abyssle plains and then even deeper than the Hatele

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Speaker 3: zone in the trenches, and both of these fish species

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Speaker 3: tended to have something like this design they're mentioning here,

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Speaker 3: elongated bodies with tapering tails. Kind of interesting. Finally, in

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Speaker 3: the deepest part of the sea, the authors found the

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Speaker 3: greatest diversity of body forms mapped on the morphospace, especially

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Speaker 3: landing in extremes along the axis of body elongation.

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Speaker 4: Quote.

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Speaker 3: At one extreme are the most slender species in our

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Speaker 3: data set, snipe eels, more on that in the second,

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Speaker 3: and at the other are globe shaped species like oceanic

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Speaker 3: angler fishes. Now, the snipe eel, that's also worth a

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Speaker 3: lookup if you get a chance. It looks like a

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Speaker 3: gray whip with cartoon duck lips. So at the other

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Speaker 3: end of the axis, you know, we've already talked about

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Speaker 3: like the very blob shaped deep ocean angler fishes, and

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Speaker 3: there are more blob shaped fish you find in the

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Speaker 3: deep deep water. But you also get this other extreme,

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Speaker 3: the fish that are so long and thin they're like

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Speaker 3: a string almost, and yet they are still fish.

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Speaker 2: This is the most Pixar already fish I think I've

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Speaker 2: ever seen. You can imagine just an image of this

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Speaker 2: fish going out to casting directors and just saying, find

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Speaker 2: me a voice for this fish. It has a lot

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Speaker 2: of character.

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Speaker 4: Hey, they call me slam.

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Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, yeah, I can see that working. I

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Speaker 2: was imagine like Emo Phillips would be good. Oh he

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Speaker 2: may already play a fish and Pixar maybe maybe he's

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Speaker 2: already taken.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So to make these deep evolved fish, often it seems

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Speaker 3: like you could start with a snapper fish and then

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Speaker 3: you either squash it into a wad you kind of

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Speaker 3: bulldog scullet it, or you stretch it out into a noodle,

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Speaker 3: so you've got like whips and blobs. The authors say

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Speaker 3: that also in the deepest zone, you tend to find

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Speaker 3: fishes with huge mouths relative to their bodies. Big mouths

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Speaker 3: and strangely tapered tails like we saw with the snail fish,

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Speaker 3: so it looks like a tadpole, you know, instead of

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Speaker 3: spreading out like most fishtails you think of, it just

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Speaker 3: kind of tapers off to a little pencil tail. So

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Speaker 3: there is a huge difference here, essentially double the evolution

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Speaker 3: of disparate fish body forms in the deep zone compared

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Speaker 3: to the near surface zone, where you just see a

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Speaker 3: lot more species with similar body forms. What explains this well,

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Speaker 3: The authors have some ideas, and those ideas come back

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Speaker 3: to something we've touched on already in earlier parts of

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Speaker 3: this series, the interaction between light conditions and predation. So

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Speaker 3: in the photic zone of the ocean, where sunlight penetrates

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Speaker 3: the water, the authors talk about how there is a

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Speaker 3: lot of hunting by sight. Predators can see prey and

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Speaker 3: vice versa. Pray can see predators at a relatively long distance.

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Speaker 3: So there is predator and prey, you know, awareness of

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Speaker 3: each other with significant distance in between. And it seems

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Speaker 3: like when predators and prey can see each other at

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Speaker 3: a distance, it gives rise to these kind of recurring

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Speaker 3: predation patterns, things like stalking and chasing. Survival often becomes

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Speaker 3: a literal race, where like swimming speed and maneuverability are

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Speaker 3: the key factors that determine whether you live or die.

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Speaker 3: So there's an arms race based around swimming speed. And

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Speaker 3: I don't know if this is a good analogy. The

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Speaker 3: authors don't make it themselves, but it also made me

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Speaker 3: think about how it seems to me that there is

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Speaker 3: a lot of evolutionary pressure for like quadrupedal mammals to

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Speaker 3: specialized for speed when they live in very open environment,

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Speaker 3: something of like the savannah right right where you sightlines

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Speaker 3: are long. So the snapper form that we talked about

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Speaker 3: that is so common in shallower waters maybe just kind

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Speaker 3: of an optimized evolutionary design for the light drenched environment

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Speaker 3: that leads to this arms race on swimming and the

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Speaker 3: authors so that's one part of it, the main predation

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Speaker 3: interactions predator prey interactions based on light. Also, though they

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Speaker 3: point out that shallow water fish face physical environmental pressures

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Speaker 3: that deep water fish usually do not face, and there

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Speaker 3: are actually a lot of different things to consider here.

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Speaker 3: So near the surface, you're going to have like surface

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Speaker 3: weather effects and turbulent waters and more variable current that

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Speaker 3: you might need to fight against, fighting against unpredictably flowing water.

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Speaker 3: And also if fish live in coastal environments or along

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Speaker 3: rocky seafloors, they might be needing to have ways of

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Speaker 3: dealing with those environments, like rocky bottoms or reefs, maybe

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Speaker 3: ways of hiding and getting around in those places. Those

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Speaker 3: just create all different kinds of new evolutionary pressures. The

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Speaker 3: conditions in the deep ocean, on the other hand, are

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Speaker 3: relatively stable. You're not going to be fighting with a

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Speaker 3: lot of weather or current or you know, like there's

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Speaker 3: not a lot of different stuff going on. There's going

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Speaker 3: to be a lot of floating or sitting and scuttling

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Speaker 3: around along the kind of sedimented bottom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is We touched briefly on this with the siphonophores,

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Speaker 2: mentioning that like some of the siphonophores are rather delicate

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Speaker 2: in their their body structure, but they're in an area

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Speaker 2: where they're not having to deal with currents and so forth,

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Speaker 2: they can just live free and weird like that exactly.

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Speaker 3: But also coming back to the thing about light allowing

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Speaker 3: predators and prey to see one another at a distance

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Speaker 3: and putting this pressure on chasing and maneuvering, the authors

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Speaker 3: say that, you know, in the deepest parts of the ocean,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of like the information horizon of death or

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Speaker 3: of getting.

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Speaker 4: A meal is much shorter.

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Speaker 3: Like fish and prey, the predators in prey don't see

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Speaker 3: each other at a distance. They're much more likely to

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Speaker 3: just kind of bump into each other quite suddenly. Predation

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Speaker 3: happens quickly in close quarters. And that's kind of interesting

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Speaker 3: because it seems that this change in light conditions and

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Speaker 3: the relatively short information horizon on which you can detect

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Speaker 3: the presence of a predator or prey animal, it kind

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Speaker 3: of relieves the otherwise overwhelming evolutionary pressure on swimming power

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Speaker 3: like speed and maneuverability, and it allows deep adapted species

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Speaker 3: to run weird experiments in survival, for example, by favoring

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Speaker 3: body types that swim relatively slowly but can serve metabolic

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Speaker 3: energy or specialize in surviving in extremely high pressure and

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Speaker 3: low temperature environments. And the authors point out that this

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Speaker 3: explanation is supported by the observation that many deep dwelling

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Speaker 3: species of fish have kind of weak muscles. They have

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Speaker 3: like low density or what are called watery muscles, which

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Speaker 3: does probably make them weaker or slower swimmers, but it

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Speaker 3: also helps in other ways. It helps them maintain neutral buoyancy,

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Speaker 3: so that's the ability to neither float up nor sink,

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Speaker 3: just kind of sit right where you are in the

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Speaker 3: water column. They also point out that the extreme hydrostatic

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Speaker 3: pressure of the deep ocean may actually make efficient swimming easier.

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Speaker 3: Quote in laboratory settings. European eels experienced approximately sixty percent

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Speaker 3: lower cost of transport under high pressure conditions. Elevated rates

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Speaker 3: of evolution for locomotor traits in the deep ocean may

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Speaker 3: therefore reflect the relaxation of strong selection for some aspects

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Speaker 3: of locomotive performance, such as maneuverability and high speed cruising.

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Speaker 3: So I thought this was interesting because it seems like, ironically,

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Speaker 3: these extreme conditions in the deep ocean allow for more

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Speaker 3: biological diversity and less grouping around these body shapes that

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Speaker 3: get used over and over. It's sort of the opposite

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Speaker 3: of what you would think. You would kind of think

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Speaker 3: that the extreme environments would tend to force a lot

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Speaker 3: of like a much narrower range of what could survive there,

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Speaker 3: and instead it proves to be a kind of experiment

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Speaker 3: kind of free experimentation space for evolution. And so that's interesting.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I want to come back to that in a minute.

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Speaker 3: But there are also it's worth pointing out there are

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Speaker 3: a few things about the deep ocean that might be

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Speaker 3: thought of as analogous to the pressure on swimming speed

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Speaker 3: and maneuverability in the shallow ocean. One thing is the

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Speaker 3: overwhelming pressure to not miss out on a chance to eat,

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Speaker 3: and that leads to one thing that they found, a

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Speaker 3: thing that's not variable. Among deep sea fishes, they almost

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Speaker 3: all seem to have big mouths, specifically long jaws. This

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Speaker 3: goes back to your black swallower example. In that example,

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Speaker 3: it was the stomach, though I suspect it probably also

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Speaker 3: has relatively large jaws compared to fish of its size

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Speaker 3: throughout the ocean. But the thinking here is that the

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Speaker 3: big mouths, the long jaws is about resource scarcity, kind

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Speaker 3: of like the big stomachs the author's right quote befitting

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Speaker 3: rare encounters with sparsely distributed prey. So it's like when

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Speaker 3: you come across food, you just do not want to

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Speaker 3: miss the chance because you're already full, or because you

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Speaker 3: can't fit the prey in your mouth, or because maybe

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Speaker 3: you bite it but you don't have a good grip

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Speaker 3: and it gets away. You just want to make sure

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Speaker 3: that when you come in contact with the scarce spit

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Speaker 3: of food, you are keeping it and you can digest it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and this is definitely the case with angler fish

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Speaker 2: that we talked about in the last episode. Yeah, big mouths,

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Speaker 2: big stomachs, you don't want to have to turn down

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Speaker 2: a meal because you don't have room. There's plenty of room,

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Speaker 2: there's room to get in, and there's room to digest.

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Speaker 3: One more thing I was looking into is I was

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Speaker 3: trying to check out research on why you find these

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Speaker 3: more elongated body forms and fishes, like not just why

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Speaker 3: there's more safety to experiment with that kind of body form,

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Speaker 3: but actually, like what is the advantage in the deep ocean.

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Speaker 3: And it seems like maybe long slender body forms make

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Speaker 3: swimming more energetically efficient. You can swim while expending less

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Speaker 3: energy when you're kind of elongated like that. And also

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Speaker 3: I did come across one study proposing that elongated or

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Speaker 3: tapering body forms make it easier to swim backwards, which

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Speaker 3: I thought was of interesting, saying that if you have

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Speaker 3: an elongated body form like some of these fish, it's

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Speaker 3: easier to suddenly reverse direction and go back in exactly.

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Speaker 4: The way you came.

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Speaker 2: Hmm. Interesting.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, coming back to general thoughts on this idea

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Speaker 3: that these more extreme deep ocean environments allow for more

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Speaker 3: evolutionary diversity, One thing is that this dynamic does seem

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Speaker 3: to be specific to physical facts about the different things

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Speaker 3: about the ocean, like the light actually does influence influence

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Speaker 3: the predator prey interactions that force the well lit areas

436
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: to specialize for speed and maneuverability. So that is one

437
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 3: thing that's kind of specific to the ocean, but in

438
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: the more general sense, it makes me wonder if we

439
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: have a tendency to think about plentiful, abundant, easy living

440
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 3: environ min's the wrong way, you know, Like when an

441
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: environment has a lot of food and opportunity and it's

442
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 3: easier to live in, it makes you think that that's

443
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: where life can thrive more easily, and thus can you know,

444
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 3: can be anything, can it can experiment evolutionarily. But in fact,

445
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: it seems that part of what's going on in the

446
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 3: easier to live in environments is a lot of things

447
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: want to live there, so there's a lot of competition.

448
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 3: So it's putting a lot of pressure on the things

449
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 3: that do live there to you know, make it really count.

450
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: So they have to optimize and they like, you can't

451
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 3: be just a little bit slower than the other fish,

452
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 3: so you've all got to be these fast swimming fish.

453
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 3: So there's actually less room for evolutionary diversity.

454
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 2: There's probably some sort of perfect business world example of this.

455
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: But the only thing coming to my mind is like, oh,

456
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: if you open a bar in the city, you almost

457
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: have to have a television screen to play the sports

458
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 2: on another because that's just what everyone expects and that's

459
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: what all the other bars have. Yeah, like I said,

460
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: there's probably a better analogy than that.

461
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 4: I don't think.

462
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think this to whatever extent this is

463
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 3: true about nature, I don't think it is necessarily a

464
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 3: good metaphor for other types of competition. And you know,

465
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 3: evolutionary environments you might think of, like with ideas or

466
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 3: businesses or anything like that, but there might be some

467
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 3: ways in which that applies.

468
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: Business headed folks. Get back to us.

469
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: Let us know now, Rob, I know today you wanted

470
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 3: to talk about something else having to do with light

471
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 3: conditions in the different zones of the ocean, specifically bioluminescence,

472
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: and I want to get to that, but just briefly

473
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 3: before we do that, I want to mention one more

474
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 3: interesting fish I came across, and that is another predatory

475
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 3: abyssle fish known as Bathipterois gralitour, commonly known as the

476
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 3: tripod fish. Though this is a little confusing because the

477
00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: word tripodfish is also used to refer to more generally

478
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: a bunch of fish in this family, but sometimes this

479
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 3: species of fish in particular is called the tripod fish.

480
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: These are also sometimes known as spiderfish or the tripod spiderfish.

481
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 3: I actually first came across this because of its taxonomic

482
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: relation to the grideye fish that we talked about in

483
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 3: Part two. The tripod fish is also part of that

484
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 3: fish's family, the family ibnopidy.

485
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 4: Now, this fish.

486
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: Does not have neon yellow bean cup eyes, but like

487
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 3: the grideye fish, it is a bottom dwelling predator that

488
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: can be found in the abyssle planes of the deep ocean,

489
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 3: so not quite as deep swimming as like the trench

490
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 3: snailfish that we talked about in the last episode, but

491
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 3: still one of the deepest fish species.

492
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 4: In the world.

493
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: And the really amazing adaptation that makes this species sort

494
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 3: of famous is the way that it appears to stand

495
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: on stilts off the ocean floor, three of them, two

496
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: projecting out of the fish's flanks from its lower fins

497
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: on the side, and the third projecting out behind the

498
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 3: fish from the bottom of its tail fin, making this

499
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 3: fish kind of the equivalent of like the Martian tripods

500
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 3: and War of the Worlds. It's standing up on three legs,

501
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 3: towering over the other things that might crawl along the

502
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: ocean floor. The tripod fish is commonly known as a

503
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 3: demersal fish, meaning a fish that lives on or directly

504
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: above the bottom substrate of a lake or sea. And

505
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: there are organisms that you'll see gliding directly over the sediment.

506
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 3: But what I like about the tripod fish is that

507
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 3: it looks like it almost daintily does not want to

508
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 3: sully its fins in the mud, and it uses these

509
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 3: biological stilts to stand a few of its body lengths

510
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: up above the bottom. For a formal description of the species,

511
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 3: I dug up a report published in the journal Pacific

512
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 3: Science from nineteen ninety by a pair of researchers named

513
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 3: Anthony T.

514
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 4: Jones and Kenneth J. Sulak.

515
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 3: This paper was describing observations of tripod fish from a

516
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 3: submersible dive off the coast of Hawaii at depths of

517
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: greater than one thousand meters, and, in the author's words quote,

518
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 3: the fish were photographed on the fine rippled sediment at

519
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 3: depths between eleven hundred and forty and thirteen hundred and

520
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 3: twenty meters on the southern slope of Maui. The specimens

521
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: were identified by the features that characterize the species, very

522
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 3: long produced pelvic and caudal fin rays, a uniformly dark body,

523
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: an unpigmented dorsal fin, an undivided pectoral fin held upright

524
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: with the rays extended straight, and lower caudal fin base

525
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 3: canted anteriorly. So tripod fish are predators that sit up

526
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: on their stilt legs facing into the current, waiting for

527
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 3: prey to come near them. And there's something very interesting

528
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: about these ste because when you see them standing up

529
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 3: on the stilts, and it kind of suggests that these

530
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: stilts are I don't know that they're stiff, like they

531
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: look like they would have to be in order to

532
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: support your weight like that, like the legs of a stool.

533
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: But an interesting thing that Jones and Sulac note is

534
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 3: that while these rays, these things appear stiff, when the

535
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 3: fish is standing up off the bottom, suddenly the fish

536
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 3: will get disturbed. Maybe it'll get kind of disturbed by

537
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: like the arm of the of the remote vehicle, and

538
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 3: it'll suddenly swim away. And then these things like lose

539
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 3: their their rigidity and they become flexible. They just appear

540
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 3: to glide behind the fish. So it's kind of interesting

541
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: imagining how they do that. Maybe some sort of internal

542
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 3: fluid pressure mechanism or something, but interesting to wonder how

543
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 3: But instead of relying on site to catch pray, like

544
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: we were just talking about, the tripod fish seem to

545
00:32:54,640 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 3: rely on sensitive elongated pectoral fin rays. Look up pictures

546
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: of these things. They will be perching on the bottom

547
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 3: on the three legs, and then they'll have what looks

548
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 3: like two little antennae coming up off of their heads

549
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 3: like or like devil horns, and you can see these

550
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: devil horns poking up into the water like they're kind

551
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 3: of feeling around in the water for something. And it

552
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 3: seems that is what they're doing. They're detecting prey animals

553
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 3: drifting along with mechanical and perhaps gustatory sensations, and then

554
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: these these fins help guide the prey to the mouth.

555
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: Oh wow, Yes, I definitely encourage everyone to look up

556
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: images of these fish, because yeah, you have those the

557
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: tripod configuration on the bottom, but then you have those

558
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: two those two additional elongated quote unquote antennae those it

559
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: almost looks like it's intended for it to like walk

560
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 2: another way, like it's like it's kind of got it's

561
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: reaching up for a ceiling that isn't there in the

562
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: same way that it's reach down to the floor beneath

563
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: it. It also kind of looks like a coltrop.

564
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 4: Yes.

565
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 3: One more thing that makes sense if you think about

566
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 3: these organisms environment is that the deep sea tripod fish

567
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: are hermaphroditic, so they can reproduce with themselves if they

568
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: need to.

569
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: That.

570
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 3: They will of course reproduce sexually with others if they

571
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 3: get the opportunity. But you know, you're down there in

572
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: the deep sea, ships passing in the night or whatever

573
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 3: the opposite vertical version of that is submarines passing in

574
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 3: the night, you might not get the opportunity, So.

575
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: Be prepared to do everything in house. Yes, all right,

576
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: So as we begin to close out this episode, we've

577
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: discussed several different deep sea organisms thus far that make

578
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: use of bioluminescence in one form or another, and this

579
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 2: is just such a fascinating realm of consideration for for

580
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 2: deep sea fish. We were talking earlier about you know

581
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: what happens when everything is just kind of like you know,

582
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: a wide open chase, what happens when you're just bumping

583
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: into each other and so forth. The other thing is

584
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: that bioluminescence in this in this realm where light from

585
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 2: the surface either takes on this this strange, you know,

586
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: less intense form, or is just gone altogether. Bioluminescence light

587
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: created in the deep by organisms. This becomes this whole

588
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 2: place of interaction and weaponization. And I thought it might

589
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: be fitting for us to go ahead and roll through

590
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: all of the known uses for bioluminescence and fill in

591
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: some examples for categorizations that we haven't talked about already.

592
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: So the University of California at Santa Barbara has an

593
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 2: excellent website about bioluminescence called simply the Bioluminescence web Page.

594
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: I think it's been been around for a while at

595
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: this point, but it's got some just great It's has

596
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: some great visual breakdowns of the different categories of bioluminescence

597
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 2: and you know, some examples. Uh. And they break everything

598
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: down into three broad categories of function, offense, defense, and

599
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: a third category that includes a single function and that's

600
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 2: made attraction slash recognition swarming queue, and so I thought

601
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: that would be a good place to start, and then

602
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: we'll get into defense and offense, which includes some categories

603
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: that we've touched on already. So when it comes to

604
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 2: made attraction recognition and swarming queues, they mentioned several examples

605
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 2: and possible examples for this category, because the thing about bioluminescence, well,

606
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 2: first of all, I should stress that these categories tend

607
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: to not be like one hundred distinct like so many

608
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: examples will. We'll check off the box for multiple categories.

609
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: I mean, such as the power of bioluminescence down there,

610
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: there's a certain amount of drift and what it's actually

611
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 2: achieving or seems to be achieving for any given species.

612
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: And then, of course the other factor is we're still

613
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 2: figuring out exactly what role bioluminescence has in any given species,

614
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: especially when, of course, when we get into deeper species

615
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: and rare species that we just don't know much about.

616
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 2: But I'd say the most interesting example they bring up here,

617
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: and probably you know key too our discussions, are the

618
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: lantern fish of the family micto Fia day and they're

619
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 2: found in more than two hundred and forty different different species.

620
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 2: I've seen the species count as high as three hundred,

621
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: and they're found worldwide. They're very abundant. According to the

622
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 2: twenty eleven Encyclopedia of Fish Physiology, they make up sixty

623
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: percent of all deep sea fish biomass, so, as you

624
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: might imagine, that means they are very much on the

625
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: menu for anything that is eating anything that's preying on

626
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 2: fish in the deep ocean. They themselves, however, feed on zooplankton. Now,

627
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: most species practice diurnal vertical migration, in which they stick

628
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 2: to the depths of the bathoplegic zone during the day,

629
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: and then they'll venture upward into shallower waters at night

630
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 2: to feed. And as their name implies, lanternfish. They boast

631
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,720
Speaker 2: photophores that are certainly thought to help provide camouflage, breaking

632
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 2: up their silhouette against filtered sunlight from above to protect

633
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 2: against predators beneath, but some researchers hold that they may

634
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: use these lights to communicate with each other as well.

635
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: According to the Woodshole Oceanographic Institute quote, the arrangement and

636
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 2: flashing pattern of these running lights are unique to each

637
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: of the two hundred and forty five plus species of

638
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 2: lantern fish, which suggests that they're not just used to

639
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:53,760
Speaker 2: camouflage the animals, but also to communicate. However, other sources

640
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: I've looked at, such as that twenty eleven Encyclopedia of

641
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 2: Fish Physiology, kind of downplay the possibility of a community roll. Okay, Now,

642
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: there are other examples of organisms in the ocean that

643
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: use their lights or seem to use their lights for communication.

644
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: The ostracods, for example. These are tiny crustaceans noted for

645
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 2: their blue or green bioluminescence. This is thought to aid

646
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: and communication and identification as well. So again that's one

647
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: way that bioluminescence can be used to sort of like

648
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 2: say hey, I'm here, this is what I am, and

649
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 2: so forth. But getting more into these like the offensive

650
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 2: and defensive array, getting into the drama and conflict of predation,

651
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: first the offensive use of bioluminescence, rolling through the different

652
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: subfunctions that are outlined by the Bioluminescence website. First of all,

653
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: luring prey we discussed a prime example of this with

654
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 2: various deep sea angler fish create a light draw in

655
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: other fish that are drawn to that light because it

656
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: might mean a meal, or it might mean a chance

657
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 2: to breed, and then you gobble up your prey when

658
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: they get close. Now the next example, this one, This

659
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: one's really interesting lure with external light, And this is

660
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 2: one I hadn't thought as much about, but it should

661
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: be common sense to us denizens of the sun and

662
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: the moonlit world, and also a world where we've created

663
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: a lot of external illumination sources. If you don't create

664
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: your own deep sea light as a lure, might you

665
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 2: depend on other species for illumination. Sperm whales, for example,

666
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: may possibly seek out communities of bi iluminescent plankton, not

667
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: to eat them themselves, but to watch for the plankton's

668
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: defensive displays of bi iluminescence, which signals the presence of

669
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 2: a predator, and this in turn would invoke the whales

670
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: attack and Megamouth sharks may also employ this tactic. But

671
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: I'm to understand that in either case we don't know

672
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: for sure. I think this is this is still very

673
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 2: mention in the realm of a of a hypothesis. Now

674
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: here's the next categorization. Stun or confuse prey. It's thought

675
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 2: that some squid may use bioluminescence to stun or confuse

676
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 2: the prey species that they're after in addition to communication.

677
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 2: In a two thousand and seven paper published in the

678
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: Proceedings of the Royal Society, b Observations of wild hunting

679
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: behavior and Bioluminescence of a large deep sea eight arm

680
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: squid Teningia Dana, authors Kupadira at all right that the

681
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 2: squid's intense light emissions quote may work as a blinding

682
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 2: flash for the prey as well as a means of

683
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 2: illumination and measuring target distance in an otherwise dark environment.

684
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and they may also use their lights to

685
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 2: deter count competitors and adversaries of the same species. So again,

686
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: once you get into the use of this bioluminescence again

687
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: that often it's multiple things. There may be multiple purposes

688
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 2: in play here. But these are big squid, by the way,

689
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: reaching lengths of one point seven meters or five point

690
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: six feet, and their photophores, they're light emitting parts here,

691
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: are enormous, often compared to fists or lemons. They're positioned

692
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: at the ends of special arms, and they have what's

693
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 2: described as like an eyelid like membrane, like a black

694
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 2: membrane that closes over it. I included a photo here

695
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: for you, Joe. It does indeed look like a great

696
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: pale pupilis eye at the end of a squid arm.

697
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 3: Deeply unsettling, this sort of large almond shaped chunk of

698
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 3: white chocolate behind the behind the flesh. Yeah, but this

699
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 3: is funny because it's like I'm thinking about the second

700
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 3: half of the thing you mentioned here. The first item

701
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 3: you mentioned is it's possible that the squid are using

702
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 3: it to like a flash bang. It's there to stun

703
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 3: or confuse the prey. But the other thing is why

704
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 3: didn't I think of this before perhaps using it as

705
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 3: illumination or way of measuring target distance, so essentially using

706
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 3: it like a flashlight to illuminate prey so that it

707
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 3: can better be located, the same way that if you

708
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: were trying to like catch a chicken running around at night,

709
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 3: you would need like to shine a flashlight at it

710
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:18,479
Speaker 3: to chase.

711
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

712
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, this is this is an interesting example. And

713
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: the full body. I found a great photo here of

714
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 2: this particular species, and it looks kind of like a

715
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: like a fighter plane too. Like you can really I

716
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: have an easy time imagining this thing like zooming in

717
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: on its on its target and then flashing them and

718
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 2: then moving in for the kill, and then doing more

719
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 2: flashing to say, hey, I'm at work here, everybody else,

720
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: stay away, I've got yeah, all right, And that leads

721
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 2: into the fourth example here of offensive bioluminescence usage, and

722
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: that's to illuminate prey. So this particular species Tananingia dana

723
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 2: may cover this example as well, but flashlightfish and dragonfish

724
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 2: are also really good examples. So dragonfish of the Stomidae family,

725
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 2: especially barbled dragonfish, are deep sea apex predators of the

726
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: bathlevilegic zone. Absolute icon horror shows with needle teeth that

727
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: look super intimidating on a poster. I actually had a

728
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: listener write in, I think on Discord saying yes, I

729
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: had the same poster, and I think maybe it was

730
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: like a national geographic poster that had all these fish

731
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: on it, a lot of deep sea fish. But this

732
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: particular listener, also as a kid, didn't know how big

733
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 2: these were. These guys tend to be like fifteen to

734
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: twenty six centimeters in length, but there's still apex predators

735
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 2: in their deep environment. They use their bioluminescent barbeles to

736
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: attract prey as well as communication, it seems, but the

737
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 2: species of loose jaw dragonfishes can produce red light via

738
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 2: far red e midi photophorce to illuminate prey as well

739
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: as help detect the red lights of their kin. According

740
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 2: to Woodshole, they gain their red light abilities via their

741
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 2: diet of copopods, and this is the only family of

742
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: fish that can, via this method, produce red light. They're

743
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 2: kind of like, it's like they're wizards of the deep

744
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: that have a school of magic that most other fish

745
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 2: do not have. But they're also of course competing with

746
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: each other, so they want to know what the other

747
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 2: wizards are up to. Included a photo here of Specimen Joe.

748
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 2: Everyone else should look these up as well. Dragonfish as

749
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: because their jaws are crazy. They have these like big

750
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: hinge jaws that you know, it looks like some sort

751
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,479
Speaker 2: of mechanical device that might be employed here.

752
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 4: It's a hr gig or mouse trap.

753
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, all right. Now, moving into into the defensive

754
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:59,720
Speaker 2: sphere of bioluminescence, there are multiple subfunctions here. So first

755
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: they're the categorization of startling. Some squid use this, but

756
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: also various dinoflagelet. Marine plankton use this technique. So when

757
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 2: a predator moves in towards them, they begin flashing their bioluminescence,

758
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 2: which in general has a twofold purpose. First of all, indeed,

759
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 2: it startles the attacker. It's like, WHOA, what's happening? It started?

760
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 2: It's flashing throws them off at least makes them hesitate.

761
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: But also this bleeds into another defensive categorization, and that

762
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 2: is what is generally called the burglar alarm. So when

763
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: these particular marine plankton or other organisms such as some

764
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: jellies flash defensively against predators, it also illuminates them and

765
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 2: raises the profile of the attacker, So it raises the stakes.

766
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: They're essentially saying, yes, you can continue to attack me,

767
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: slash us, but you will do so in the spotlight

768
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 2: where other predators can see you.

769
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 4: Okay.

770
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 3: So in a way, it's almost kind of like a

771
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 3: small prey animal getting attacked by a medium sized predator

772
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 3: screaming in the forest, and you know, one thing might

773
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 3: be well, does that make the medium sized predator worry

774
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 3: that a larger predator will come running?

775
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: Exactly? Yeah? All right. Another category is misdirection, also referred

776
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: to as the smoke screen technique. The vampire squid is

777
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 2: a great example of this. These are smallcephalopods, actually neither

778
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: squid nor octopod, but closer to octopods of the dark ocean.

779
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 2: We have but one known species of the family vamporo Morophidia,

780
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 2: and it is the vampo Tuthus infernalis, So it is

781
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 2: the infernal vampire squid. When threatened, they'll eject not a

782
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: pseudomorph of ink, so not like like a cloud of

783
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: ink shaped like their body, but rather a cloud of

784
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: bioluminescent mucus.

785
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 4: Beautiful.

786
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 2: So, not only is this cloud of biolumine us mucus distracting,

787
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: drawing away a predator while the vamp makes its escape,

788
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 2: but it's also sticky and glowing, So it also checks

789
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 2: off the box for the burglar alarm, because if you

790
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 2: get this stuff stuck on you, now you're glowing, and

791
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 2: this is going to raise your own glowing profile in

792
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 2: a most undesirable way, potentially drawing in predators that will

793
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 2: eat you.

794
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: Smart yeah, I mean, not like they thought of it themselves, but.

795
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 2: Right right, all right. The next category, distractive body parts,

796
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: a related concept here, But if you don't have glowing

797
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 2: mucus to eject, you can always just jettison a glowing

798
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 2: part of your body. The deep sea squid octopitoothis deletron

799
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 2: may eject portions of its arm to serve as a

800
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 2: glowing distraction while it makes its escape. And the interesting

801
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 2: thing is here when you read about how it pulls

802
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 2: this off. Apparently first they grasp their predator, like they

803
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 2: sort of like go to their predator, but then they

804
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: release part of the arm that is in contact with

805
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 2: the predator it's glowing, and then they make their escape.

806
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 2: It's kind of like jump in there, grapple your attacker,

807
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 2: but then leave them your arm and make a break

808
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: for it.

809
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 3: Proactive glowing autotomy.

810
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 2: Yes, sacrificial tag is the next one. There's a lot

811
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,800
Speaker 2: of overlapped overlap here with the distractive body part example

812
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 2: we just rolled through, but the emphasis here seems to

813
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 2: be on more of a burglar alarm type feature. So

814
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 2: it's like basically they're saying, here, eat this discarded glowing

815
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: part of me, but you will probably glow as well.

816
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 2: Now because you have to remember, first of all, these

817
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,439
Speaker 2: sorts of tissues may continue to glow for hours, and

818
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: many of these creatures are largely translucent, so eating a

819
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: glowing meal could mean everyone will know you're there, they

820
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 2: see the glowing meat inside you, and predators may notice.

821
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 3: Ah yeah, So if your gut stuffed in cellophane and

822
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 3: then you eat a glow stick, that does make you vulnerable, right.

823
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: And this defense seems to have also caused the counter

824
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 2: revolution of black line stomachs in many predator organisms to

825
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: prevent the glow of bioluminescent meals from escaping, because obviously, yea,

826
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,959
Speaker 2: the more your stomach is like a dark room, there's

827
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 2: going to be an obvious survival advantage if you're going

828
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 2: around eating glowing food. And then, finally, the last categorization

829
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 2: for defensive bioluminescence that the Bioluminescence website outlines is just

830
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 2: warning colorization. This one overlaps with several examples. The glow

831
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: is a warning of all the bad things that could

832
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 2: potentially happen to the predator if they eat or try

833
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 2: to eat the prey, and it also can communicate the

834
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: old standby that we're familiar here on the surface world

835
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 2: as well, and that is the warning, Hey, I'm not

836
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: taste or maybe I'm toxic. I'm not good to eat,

837
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: so stay away from me. Look how bright I am?

838
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 4: Nice.

839
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 2: So hopefully all of that helps to sort of flesh

840
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 2: out what we've been talking about here in terms of

841
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 2: bioluminescence in these various species that there's just there's kind

842
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: of like a war of light going on in the dark,

843
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,760
Speaker 2: and it's fascinating how these different spells and counter spells

844
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 2: interact with each other. Well said, and there's so many

845
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 2: more examples, and there, of course, again there's so much

846
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 2: more that we're continuing to learn about these bioluminescent creatures

847
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 2: in the team.

848
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:37,399
Speaker 4: That's right.

849
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 3: So maybe we'll have to return to this topic in

850
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 3: the future, but I think for now that does it.

851
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,399
Speaker 2: That's right. So we're going to go ahead and close

852
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 2: out this episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. But

853
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 2: we'd love to hear from everyone out there. What's your

854
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 2: favorite deep sea organism? What are some favorites that we

855
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: didn't cover on the show here today? Write in We

856
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: would love to hear from you. Will remind you that

857
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and

858
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 2: culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On

859
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: Wednesdays we air a short form episode, and on Fridays

860
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 2: we have Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set

861
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns and just talk about a weird film.

862
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

863
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

864
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

865
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Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

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Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

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Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.