1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: hear their stories, what inspires their creations, what decisions change 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. The turn of 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: the century newspaper baron Joseph Pulitzer once remarked, quote, our 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: republic and its press will rise or fall together unquote 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: as the election looms. I, like many, am disappointed and 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: bewildered by the constant noise of twenty four hour cable 9 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: news channels, paid opinion writers, and social media feeds. But 10 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: there is a short list of writers and broadcasters that 11 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: managed to cut through the clutter, and that I listened 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: to regularly. Kurt Anderson on Studio three sixty, Brian Lair 13 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: on w n y C Radio, and my guest today 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: Bob Garfield, the co host of On the Media with 15 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: Brooke Gladstone. Garfield's trenchant interviews hold not just politicians and 16 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: newsmakers accountable, but also the journalists who cover them. He's 17 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: truly as fair and balanced as they come. Maybe that's 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: because he's always found himself in the middle. I was 19 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: the middle child in a middle of the middle class 20 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: household and where in western suburbs of Philadelphia, the affluent 21 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: Jewey suburbs of Philadelphia, and it was kind of a 22 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: upper middle class ghetto called ballet Kinwood. And my parents 23 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: were active, civically active, and they talked about the news 24 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: mainly through the prism of complaining about various political figures. 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: And as I go back and reconstruct there, they were 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: progressive because the people they were bad mouthing now that 27 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: I think about it, were Republicans. But we didn't have 28 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: We didn't sit down at the table and discuss political 29 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: issues or anything like that. What did he do for 30 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: a living, Well, obviously, he was the general manager of 31 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: a factory that made paper plates and duh. And but 32 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: what's fabulous about it is the brand of paper plates 33 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: was artist crat fantastic and you know it was not 34 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: false advertising. I mean they were the most aristocratic paper 35 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: plates so that I've ever used. They even handled baked beans. 36 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: I'm just saying. Yeah. So he was in the He 37 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: also had a kind of moon landed. He had a 38 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: creative side. He moonlighted as the vice president of a 39 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: company that made corrugated cartons, So he was a diverse man. 40 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: He certainly was her renaissance made what about her? My 41 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: mom was a housewife. He was in the plastic utensil 42 00:02:54,919 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: fortune inherited would that she had. We actually we kept 43 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: a kind of Potempkin village of affluence. But we really struggled, 44 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: uh to keep up with the you know, the mantel bounds. 45 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: And it was but it was fine. I mean, we 46 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: didn't we didn't really know. Again this I've reconstructed an 47 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: adult life how my parents struggled at the time. But um, 48 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: you know it was it was really unremarkable childhood. And 49 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't miserable, I wasn't happy. I don't 50 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: have a whole lot of fodder for writing now because 51 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: my parents didn't abuse me and my father wasn't a drunk. 52 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: And it was in the high school years. Were you 53 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: involved in any kind of media radio writing. I was 54 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: the I was the president of the tetracycling squad. My 55 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: high school was entirely defined by ACNE. It was absolutely 56 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: the defining aspect of my high school life. And it 57 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: was politically in just did I was part of an 58 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: fledgling organization called something like concerns, students for concern, and 59 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: we were for a number of things and against a 60 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: number of things. Precisely which ones I don't recall, but 61 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: it was in the middle of Watergate, and it was 62 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: at the more or less it had just followed at 63 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: the point in our history where college students were occupying 64 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: administration buildings and so forth. So I was playing at 65 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: being politically active. But when it came down to go 66 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: to college, where'd you go? Uh? Father died dropped my plans. Fortunately, 67 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: to go to an etsy bitsy little school in Vermont 68 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: called Marlborough College, which had like two hundred people on 69 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: the campus, all in I'm that students. Half it was staff. 70 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,239 Speaker 1: Half of his staff, I think, all dressed in black 71 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: leotard tops, writing a lot of poetry. I think there 72 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: were bongos involved. I'm not sure. But it was expensive 73 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: and we didn't have money. I can go there here, 74 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: So I went to Oxford. No, I'm sorry, it's Penn State. 75 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: I want to Penn State, where I got involved in 76 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: the newspaper as the world's worst nineteen year old columnist. 77 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: I found I didn't quite found a humor magazine, but 78 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: there had been a humor magazine at Penn State called 79 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: Froth that I took up and essentially ran single handed. 80 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: So I graduated. And what was the inclination in you 81 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: to do that, to want to share information with people, 82 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: opening about things. If you hadn't been doing that in 83 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: high school when you got to college, what do they 84 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: opened up for you? What I think opened up was 85 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: my genome. I came from a long line of unbelievably 86 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: opinionated people, and I'm the first one ever, you know, 87 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: to make a nickel at it. There may have been 88 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: a desert of facts in my growing up, but there 89 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: was absolutely an abundance of opinions. And when you left 90 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: Penn State, you went right into that. As a career. 91 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: I became a newspaper reporter in Reading Pennsylvania, part of Pennsylvania, 92 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: Dutch Land. I actually had an internship while I was 93 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: still in college. And it's just was one of those 94 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: epiphany moments. First day in the newsroom, slovenly dressed people 95 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: saying fuck out loud, Well, this is for me, this 96 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: is where I want to spend my life. And you know, 97 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: I did some really solid reporting on agricultural economics. I 98 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: literally there a four part series about milk marketing as 99 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: an intern and then you know, chase some real news. 100 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: How many years were you there? Intern for a few 101 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: months and then I immediately got a job out of 102 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: schools as a reporter and reading four years four years, 103 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: So you weren't reading for four years. And so we're 104 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: talking the late seventies probably correct, h correct? What is 105 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: journalism in your mind? Is it? Has that changed when 106 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: you were doing that back then? What was journalism to you? 107 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: To me, it was finding out about the ship that 108 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: happens and getting it back to the folks. It matters too, 109 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what it comes down to, I think ultimately, 110 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, and then there's plus a big part of 111 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: it that it's just looking for phenomenal, phenomenological stuff, the 112 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: stuff that's going on. It isn't necessarily news. You're not 113 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: watch dogging government figures and taxpayer dollars. You're just kind 114 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: of letters trends. Yeah, yeah, And the key for me 115 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: always has been to report it fairly neutrally. Now that 116 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: that has changed, not only in the general practice of 117 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: journalism but in my heart of hearts. But the idea was, 118 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: even if you have a point of view, just to 119 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: make damn sure that you're intellectually honest about the exercise 120 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: and that you're being fair minded. And that was by 121 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: and large the rules of the game in the world 122 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: when you began. I think so now, I was not trained. 123 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: I didn't go to j school. I was an English major. 124 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: But I happily blundered into journalism. Knew literally from the 125 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: first morning that that's just what I wanted to do. 126 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: And but I was I wasn't even trained in basic 127 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: journalism ethics. So on the one hand, that hurt you. 128 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: I did some things as a young journalist that we're 129 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: firing offenses. Nobody would ever today countenance some of the 130 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: things I did that were encouraged by my own newspapers. 131 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: Give example, you know, I would needed tires from my 132 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: car in my city editor, who was corrupt, sent me 133 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: to one of his pals and said, you know, tell 134 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: him I sent you, and you'll get a discount. I 135 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: took a discount of my tires. I mean, that's a 136 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: firing offense right there. I was doing some investigative reporting, 137 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: chasing the connections between some drug dealers and local officials, 138 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: and I went along with a county detective who was 139 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: proceeding along similar lines and went to talk to some people, 140 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: and I didn't happen to mention that I was a reporter. 141 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: I didn't say I was a policeman, but I was 142 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: with a policeman, and I certainly wouldn't have objected if 143 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: the people we were talking to thought I was a policeman. 144 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: Crossly unethical. And later I did something even worse. I 145 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: actually cooperated with the police while trying to track down 146 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: physical evidence from someone we both thought was a murderer. 147 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: This is actually a story that I'm going to body 148 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: with because it's it's horrifying. Poor woman murdered in her home. 149 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: It happens on the other papers cycle. So I'm doing 150 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: the second day story, which means knock your neighbors doors, 151 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: and getting to say that, oh, this is so horrible. 152 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: And we thought this just a safe community. Now we're afraid. 153 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: So the guy next door goes through this whole song 154 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: and dance about he's going to put up lights, and 155 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:48,599 Speaker 1: he's he's going to buy double locks, triple locks, dead bolts, barricades, 156 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: and I walked away thinking I think he was play acting. 157 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: I think he was overdoing it a little bit, you know. 158 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: So when I was talking to the cops later in 159 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: the day, I said, does the next door neighbor have 160 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: an alibi? Said, oh yeah, yeah, checks out. Okay, So 161 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: I wrote my little story and the next day the 162 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: police chief calls me. He says, why did you ask 163 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: about the neighbors alibi? I said, well, you know, I 164 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,599 Speaker 1: thought he was I thought he was just overdoing a 165 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: little I sensed play acting. I thought he was playing 166 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: to the mezzanine and uh. He said, that's that's interesting. 167 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: Because his albuy broke down. He lied to us and 168 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: they pieced together this scenario. The victim had had had 169 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: foot surgery and he was helping her out and take 170 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: her out the trash. But that he had been obsessing 171 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: over for years, decades, and came this opportunity when his 172 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: wife was out and she was home recuperating. He goes in. 173 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: He has a key because he's been helping her. She's 174 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: in the basement. She comes upstairs with a bar and 175 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: she sees, oh, it's him. She puts the bar down, 176 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: He makes an advance, she spurns it. Next thing you know, 177 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: she's raped and murdered. It sounded good to me, but 178 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: he had hired a lawyer and fantastic, and the murder 179 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: is horrendous. But the profile just totally was in sync 180 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: with my vision of what might have taken place. So 181 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: but the guy hired a lawyer. When the question got 182 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: a little more rigorous, the guy hired a lawyer, and 183 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: they wouldn't let him surrender fingerprints, hair samples, anything you 184 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: wanted to get a search warrant otherwise, leave my client alone. 185 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: So incredibly, I, you know, journalist of whatever, fourteen months 186 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: contrived to do a follow up story this guy, and 187 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: I take my the ideas. I stand there with my pen, 188 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: all right, and while I'm talking to him, I drop it. 189 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: He picks it up. We have his fingerprints, we have 190 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: his fingerprints. The police, you know, see if it matches 191 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: the one partial that they have from the crime scene, 192 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: and they get their man. Well it didn't quite play 193 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: out that way. What happened was I stood at his 194 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: or and he's angry to see me there. He's angry 195 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: to see me here. That's a guilty conscience. I dropped 196 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: the pen. It falls, He stands and stares. He stares 197 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: at the pen. I stared at the pen. I look 198 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: at him, He looks at me. I look at the pen. 199 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: I look back at him. He's not moving. I say, 200 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: I got that, then check up the pen Anyway. For 201 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: years and years and years, I thought that this guy 202 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: had dodged the bullet of justice and the police had 203 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: not done a good job, and this poor woman was dead, 204 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: and he eventually himself died. One year ago, the Pennsylvania 205 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: State Police arrested a man for the murder of this woman. 206 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: He was a serial killer. He had spent most of 207 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: the previous fifteen years in prison for other murders. For 208 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: whatever reason, he unburdened himself about this one. His DNA 209 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: matched the samples where they didn't have DNA testing in 210 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: those days, but they kept the evidence the DNA matched. 211 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: Not only did I grossly unethically cooperate with the police, 212 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: so we're supposed to be reporting about not collaborating with 213 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: I did it in the service of hounding an innocent man. 214 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: So no, I didn't go to Jay score. You seem 215 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: very burdened by that. I haven't done many really terrible 216 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 1: things in my life. I mean, I did something to 217 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: ask you to a girl in sixth grade. I was 218 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: mean to her, and I still shiver and shutter when 219 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: I think about it. But now, when you're in that 220 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: period of your life, you're in reading and you're in 221 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: the beginning of your career, what news are you consuming? 222 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: Are you an evening news network guy? Are you there 223 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: there's nothing online? You can't read the Times? What are 224 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: you consuming? Well, first of all, I was at work 225 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: when evening news was on, so I really didn't have 226 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: access to what most people were saying to find out 227 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: what was going on in the world, right, But I 228 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: did have the AP wire right by my desk, so 229 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: I read a lot of stuff in the wires. I 230 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: read the Philadelphia Inquirer. I did not read the New 231 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: York Times every day. I did not read the Washington Post. 232 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: You know. My paper of record was the Inquirer. Our 233 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: paper kind of sucked. There were a few talented people, 234 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: there were a lot of not very talented people. I 235 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: had talent, but obviously I had no idea what the 236 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: Hannenburgh's still owned the paper. I think it was Try 237 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: and Go Publications. Yeah, and what did you think of 238 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: the Inquirer was it was fantastic. They had all the 239 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: money in the world. You know, the newspaper business used 240 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: to be not only profitable, but obscenely profitable, I mean 241 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: profit margins and on the order of thirty five. And 242 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: it was, you know, it was the yes, absolutely, that's 243 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: all gone. And that is one of my current obsessions. 244 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: But put that aside for the moment. So while I 245 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: was in reading Pennsylvania covering the Sewage Treatment Authority, they 246 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: were winning Pulletzer prizes for like going to Africa and 247 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: doing four part series on the plight of the Rhino. 248 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: And I'm sitting at the school board meeting trying to 249 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: find out what part of the budget was going towards 250 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: cafeteria lunches and what changes you leave reading and go were. 251 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: Then I went to a paper in Wilmington, Delaware, the 252 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: Wilmington News Journal, which was even though it's a tiny 253 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: little state and not that big a paper, was very 254 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: professionally run and had a lot of talent. And how 255 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: long there I was there for less than a year, 256 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: and then well, Wilmington was owned by Gannette. Gannette started 257 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: USA Today. This was in one they were getting that going. 258 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: It launched on September fifteenth, two and I was kind 259 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: of a friend and drinking buddy of my boss, the 260 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: managing editor. Oh I'm an abusive drinker, and I, uh, 261 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: how could be others? And I was, you know, I 262 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: have moderated in the last thirty or forty years, but 263 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: I was an aspiring, abusive a drinker. Let me put 264 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: it through that way. And my drinking buddy was the 265 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: was the managing editor. He became the business editor at 266 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: this new paper, USA Today. He dragged me down with 267 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: him and overnight I was a business columnist. His name 268 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: is Taylor Bucklet. Who was that guy that always have 269 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: to have his picture on USA Today in the early days. Yeah, 270 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: he was the He was the chairman of Gannett and 271 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: this was his three quarters of a billion dollar vanity project. 272 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: And you know it worked for a while. They're not 273 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: making money now, nobody it's a newspaper. Of course, they're 274 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: not making money. But how does the USA? How does 275 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: someone like USA Today stay in business? Now? Who's eating 276 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: all that cost? The GETT is still making money, mainly 277 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: because of its television properties. The products themselves have been 278 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: reduced to almost nothing. I mean, it's a shame. This 279 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: is how is in des Moines is one of their papers. 280 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: And picked up the Des Moines Register and it's you know, 281 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: it's kind of like this. It's it's been physically shrunken 282 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: so much it's like opening a little dollhouse. Its Azoka show. 283 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: Comic newspapers are thin, thin, thin there. The newsrooms have 284 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: been decimated. The newspaper business is unsustainable. This is one 285 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: of the great crises of the economy, but mainly of 286 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: our democracy. We the media economy is in such a 287 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: vortex of ruins for themselves. With the online edition, they 288 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: said coming out of them, they're they're more generally profitable, 289 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: but they're still they're you know, they're looking at the 290 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: trend lines and they're still figuring out ways to cut, cut, cut, 291 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: while looking for the you know, these this magic revenue 292 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: bullet that's somehow going to solve everybody's problem. I have 293 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: spent the last twelve years in deep think and also 294 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: deep anxiety about this situation. You know, I can say, unfortunately, 295 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: pretty unequivocally, that magic bullet has not appeared. Do you 296 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: think that that this has happened? Will use the Times? 297 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: Obviously there is the best model. Do you think this 298 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: has happened because those people have gone elsewhere for their 299 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: news or they're just consuming less news, period of both. No, 300 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: it's not news consumption that's gone down. On the contrary, 301 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: there we we are a wash in news because there 302 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: we can access any news organization in the world instantaneously 303 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: on our telephones, right, so we've got no problem getting news. 304 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: We have problems locating rigorous news covering the nuts and 305 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: bolts of government. I mean, try to find some state 306 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: legislative coverage in any state in the Union. It's hard 307 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: to do because nobody can afford to have a state 308 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: house reporter anymore, much less the smaller cogs in the 309 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: wheel of government. I mean, they're just completely completely neglected 310 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: because nobody can afford to put the human beings at 311 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: the meetings with the notepads, like I said, got shut 312 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: down at CBS, Yes, exactly, they've They've cut deep into 313 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: the bone and there's there's really nothing on the horizon 314 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: to solve the problem. The problem is there's the Internet 315 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: has given us an absolute glut of content. The barriers 316 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: of entry to be a news organization used to be 317 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: a billion dollars for you know, printing presses and buildings 318 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: and employees and trucks and ink and paper, and that 319 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: kept all but a handful of oligarchs out of the business. Well, 320 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: now you can be a newspaper for the cost of 321 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: an iPhone. You get free production, free distribution, So there's 322 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: a tremendous glut of content. Like Lauren Michaels is about 323 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: do he said about YouTube, it would say broadcast yourself. 324 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: And he said, you know, sometimes we realize that having 325 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: executives who are in charge of networks and movie studios 326 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: who decide who's ready to be broadcasting, it wasn't such 327 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: a bad idea after all, And maybe broadcasting yourself isn't 328 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: the best way for us to get the best content 329 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: out there. But let me let me ask you this, 330 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: when you you when you're done withnet Ganett is how 331 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: long the USA today is? How long? I was there 332 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: for four years? And then where do you go? Well, 333 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: then I'll be a slee I became a critic of 334 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: advertising for twenty five years and made fun of TV 335 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: commercials for a living at a trade magazine called Advertising Age. 336 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: Did you make a lot of enemies doing that? I 337 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: believe I did. Yeah. I have sat at a dinner 338 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: table and a fancy restaurant in can and had an 339 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: executive come across the dinner table. A hit been overserved, 340 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: but nonetheless trying to physically assault me. I mean that 341 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: stuff happened because no human example. Why you were you 342 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: were You were literally critiquing their creative output of the 343 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: You were a column. It was a column for advertising age, 344 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: in which you just comment commented about whatever the hell 345 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: you wanted to do in the world of advertising. Yeah, 346 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: you know the commercials. It's a Pepsi commercial that's shot 347 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: and you look at it like from the security camera 348 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: of a seven eleven or whatever, and you see the 349 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: coke vendor sneak to try to get a pepsi from 350 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: the pepsi cooler instead of the coke one, and he's 351 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: looking around all furtively and he goes to take this 352 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: thing and he pulls it out and the whole every 353 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: can tumbles out of the cooler and he's totally busted. Right. 354 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: It's a pretty famous commercial directed by one of the 355 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: greatest TV commercial directors who ever lived, a guy named 356 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: Joe Pitka. And I thought that what a great commercial. 357 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: And I had a four star system. I gave it 358 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: three and a half stars. Why because for whatever reason, 359 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: they didn't record the sound of full soda cans falling 360 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: out of a cooler and then layer it over the 361 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: actual sound which we hear in the commercial, which is 362 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: of empty cans prop cans falling out. So it was 363 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: there's really you see it. It's funny, but there's this 364 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: any sound of empty cans, right, and you go, wait, 365 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: what of all details to leave out? So I knocked 366 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: him down. I didn't usually do this because I was 367 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: worried about my key issues whether it would sell goods 368 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: and services. But in this case it was an annoyance 369 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: and I gave it three and a half stars. You 370 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: would have thought that I had written that this guy 371 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: was a Nazi, that he was a pedophile. No. I 372 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: took off a half a star for sound effects, and 373 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: he wanted to kill me. Now twenty five years you 374 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: do that, and during that time, do you just have 375 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: your political gland removed? I took my shots. You know, 376 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: having a column enables you to get any range in them, 377 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: opinion in through the prism of whatever is you're nominally 378 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: writing about. So I took my shots. You know. I 379 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: wrote some op eds. You know, there were like eight 380 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: Bob Garfields, and the ad Critic was just one of them. 381 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: But I also started working at almost the same time 382 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: for NPR for all things considered as a roving feature 383 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: correspondent going around looking for weird, quirky kinds of Americana. 384 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: The guy who wanted to do a home cryonics experiment 385 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: in his backyard and got a sears shed, and there 386 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: was Grandpa on dry ice. You know, that's that sort 387 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: of thing. And I did hundreds and hundreds of these 388 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: for a DC over the same period of time. How 389 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: did you connect with npr ah Okay? I wrote an 390 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: op ed about going hunting with my in laws. I'm 391 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: a Jewish kid from the suburbs of Philadelphia. They were 392 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: cast like family, much like yours. Actually it's they were 393 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: the bald Ones, except from western Pennsylvania. And you know, 394 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: they could all build a house with their bare hands, blindfolded, 395 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: and they killed anything that moved with high powered rifles. 396 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: I remember once that Thanksgiving, my mother in law said 397 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: to me, Bobby, would you handle hand me that cast 398 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: role from the top of the refrigerator, And I said, 399 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: you mean this one next to the bullets. So it's 400 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: a different lifestyle. So I I did a piece of 401 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: a fish out of water piece about going hunting with them, 402 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: and sold us in the New York Times. It's gonna 403 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: be not bad page in the Times. They laugh, laugh, laugh, 404 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: laugh left, and then at the very last minute they 405 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: killed it because there were religion jokes in it and 406 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: they said this is our only sacred cow. Well it wasn't. 407 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: But in any event, with regret, they they said, we're 408 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: not going to run this after all. And for whatever reason, 409 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: I don't know why, I called all things considered. I 410 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: wasn't even a regular listener to the show, and talked 411 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: to the executive producer, guy named Art Silverman. He said, 412 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: we'll come in and read it. And I read it. 413 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: It was on the air that night, so we have 414 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: a great voice for radio. You never thought about that, 415 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 1: that had never been pitched to you before. Well, in fact, 416 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: thank you, but you speak so clearly. But I didn't. 417 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: I was there. Here's where I was when I was 418 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: first starting a radio and I taught myself to come 419 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: back here. This is this is pretend. I don't know, 420 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: it's maybe it's natural, but I was here. In fact, 421 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: the same guy on my second piece in the radio 422 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: I recorded, and they I wasn't there for the actual 423 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: mix of the thing, and I didn't hear it because 424 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: I was at work. And I called him and said, Hey, Art, 425 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: how did how did I sound? He said, um, sub human, 426 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: early alive. But Bob Garfield has come alive in a 427 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: major way over the last sixteen years as the co 428 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: host on the Media Coming Up. We talked about where 429 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: he gets his news today and what he thinks about 430 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: the election, Explore the Here's the Thing archives. Dick Cavitt 431 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: made a career on television by getting stars to open 432 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: up as real people, but it wasn't always that way. 433 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: I was going through old envelopes of stuff. I found 434 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: three report cards from third, fourth and fifth grade. Dick 435 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 1: has learned to control his talking is on two of them, 436 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: and Dick miss learned to let others talk occasionally. One 437 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: of the wittier ones, Uh, put down. Take a listen 438 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: at Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin 439 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: and you were listening to Here's the Thing. Bob Garfield 440 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: has been holding journalists and media makers accountable for decade, 441 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: but as sources and outlets have proliferated, it's become no 442 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: small task to keep tabs on everything that's out there. 443 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: Garfield told me he's got one ace up his sleeve. 444 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: One of the best things about being a co host 445 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: and on the media is we have a staff of 446 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: six producers who are all better educated, smarter, have more 447 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: scope and uh knowledge and understanding, and I ever had 448 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: on my best day on Earth, they called to my 449 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: attention stuff that I ordinarily Inaccadia diet wouldn't. They are 450 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: my aggregators. So I'm in this situation where I have 451 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: this most wonderful, rich inbox of stuff that has been 452 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: curated by the smartest, most curious people in the world. 453 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: But my go to it's it's the New York Times. 454 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I think it's it's a daily Mirrornic 455 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: was on our show and said, it's the weather. It 456 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: was it's the weather. And I read the Washington Post 457 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: I'm from. I live in Washington and that's my local paper. 458 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 1: They're doing the best they can with their shrinking resources. 459 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: The Times has cut way way way back on in 460 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: many areas, including most recently just playing local coverage of 461 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: stuff that happens, including fires and crimes. They're cut way back, 462 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: but they do just most remarkable reporting. It just like 463 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: seems like every week they're breaking another series about something 464 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: that you just can't believe they got the story on 465 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: and whether it's whether it's the conditions at Riker's or 466 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: the the cozy arrangements between think tanks and their funders, 467 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: horrifying a couple of stories they did about I don't know, 468 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: two or three months ago, or nail salons. They just 469 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,479 Speaker 1: blow me away all the time. Well, it's funny how 470 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: you say that, because people in my life always laugh 471 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: at me. I have two stacks, The New Yorker and 472 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: the New York Times of back issues to read the 473 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: long form articles. The New Yorker, as an institution, it 474 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: has labeled itself variously is the great magazine that that 475 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: ever was? And it is. Uh, there's not a week 476 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: goes by that there isn't something in there that is 477 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: unbelievably illuminating and sometimes validating in the way that we 478 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: shouldn't worry about. But oh yeah, that's I like this 479 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: story because it's my worldview too, and I'm glad to 480 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: see it reflected, which is one of the things that 481 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: has destroyed journalism, certainly on cable, that notion of because 482 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: there is an infinite amount of content, we can now 483 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: terry pick what we want to consume, right, So, I mean, 484 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: it's like watching porn online if your fetish is you know, 485 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: whatever amputee uh Haitian lesbians you can, you can get 486 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: the whole thing right. And that's what that's what political 487 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: journalism is. Now. If you look at the world a 488 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: certain way, there is going to be this Corney cope 489 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: of options where all you do is sit there and 490 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: you get your worldview valid. There's nothing on television for you, 491 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: no television news viewing, nothing, uh, no program Meet the Press. 492 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: I sometimes watch parts of Meet the Press to see 493 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: what happened when a newsmaker accidentally says something newsworthy, right, 494 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: and at least there's journalism taking place there. But there 495 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: is no journalism taking place on cable news unless there's 496 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: a war actually breaking out and they're showing pictures of 497 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: of tracer fire. It is nothing but talk, not only 498 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: to talk about the news, but it's talk by pundits 499 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: hired because what they're going to say is preordained. But 500 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: they certainly are, and so there's no way there to go, 501 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:44,479 Speaker 1: you know. But I, you know, I real a lot 502 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: of stuff in Slate. As it turns out another one 503 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: of my eight or Amazon partnership with five thirty eight. 504 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: My media diet is basically the New York Times, the 505 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: Post in whatever post, Washington Post, I'm sorry, the real 506 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: Post stir there. The Post is of a good sports department, 507 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: but go ahead, and their headline writers are pretty good. 508 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: And I was the Daily News. Whoever the person is 509 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: who is the editor of the Daily News front page 510 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: should get some sort of Nobel prize. I don't know 511 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: if there's a category for piff, but there should be. Um, 512 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, I went to George Washington University. I went 513 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: there for three years full time. I was in a 514 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: pre law program there. I mean, I was really really 515 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: locked in loaded that I wanted to run for office. 516 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: How have we arrived at this place where both parties 517 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: this is the best we can offer right now? What 518 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: is your opinion of that? My opinion is that this 519 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: this election represents the manifestation of the inevitable and because 520 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: of that actually very phenomenon that I was describing before, 521 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: where we can go cherry pick our media sources to 522 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: match our worldview. The political rhetoric has vastly changed in 523 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: this country, and we have we have been for the 524 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: last years or so in an ongoing campaign. I mean, 525 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: this is this is not a notion novel to me. Uh, 526 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: there is a perpetual campaign and everything that's about scoring 527 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: political points and running down the opposition and um fighting 528 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: cultural force, nullification, and it's turned out to be a 529 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: very uh solid cottage industry for Rubert Murdoch and a 530 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: few others. But the problem is nobody actually does any governing, 531 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: and governing is impossible, especially on the legislative level, because 532 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: because every bill that comes to the floor is a battle, 533 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: and you have to win the battle, and it doesn't 534 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: matter what happens to the electorate the people do. We 535 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: need to go to the mattresses over everything, over everything. 536 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: And as a consequence, particularly in the Republican Party, the 537 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: voices have gotten ever shriller, ever less tethered to reality. 538 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: I mean, for God's sakes, almost the entire roster of 539 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: candidates who were seeking the Republican nomination are in one 540 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: stage or another denial about global warming. Quite a number 541 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: of from believe in creationism, you know, they think there 542 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: was a Noah's Ark and a garden of Eden, Like, 543 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: what the fuck? How has it come to be that 544 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: this has become the mainstream. Well, it's been incremental and 545 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: as anti science as they are anti science, anti intellectual 546 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: anti fact without getting into him and shooting fish in 547 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: a barrel about Trump's demeanor, which is you know that 548 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: that that's been done to a fairly well, what's what 549 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: troubles you about her primarily, Well, what troubles me about 550 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: her is more or less the same thing that's gonna 551 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: make me for I mean, she's a technocrat wonk in 552 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: the Clinton mold, right, she's one of them, you know, 553 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: That's why I feel safe casting my ballot for her. 554 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: Let's just start what she doesn't appear to be insane. 555 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: Whatever she's done in her past that was sleazy or 556 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: had the appearance of being sleazy, it just doesn't begin 557 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: to utter compared to what she's running against. Right, But 558 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: there's you know, she's a professional politician. She has this 559 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: history of lies, of some politically opportunistic, some done in 560 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: the heat of a campaign against Obama, for example, And 561 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: the Bosnian runway is a little bit appalling. In fact, 562 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: it's a lot of polly you know, it's really she's 563 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: the best, but she's also a victim of She was, 564 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: you know, really the first the proto victim, the her 565 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: victim of the great right wing media conspiracy. They were 566 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: out for nothing less than destroying the Clintons, and they 567 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: used the Congress to do it. That was their tool. 568 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: They're they're really good. I love Tuban's book on that subject. 569 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,439 Speaker 1: I thought Tuban's book was very good. And we talked 570 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: about those Chicago law firms and the people, how much 571 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: they were out to and how the tentacles, how far 572 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: they went to that group that was out to get 573 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: the Clintons. Yeah, it's not rhetoric. I mean it was 574 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: an extremely well funded, actual conspiracy. Richard Mellon Scaife and uh, 575 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, I think I think it was a Pittsburgh 576 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: Pittsburgian Okay. Now with the thing they think about her though, 577 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: was that I mean, with what I do for a living, 578 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: were asked to look at the drama inside and the 579 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: motivation inside the person. You know, why did they do 580 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: what they do the public the membrane between the public 581 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: and the private to in order to create the character. 582 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: They're out there in the world doing this. But here's 583 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: what's really going on. And with her, I always thought, 584 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: and I don't I don't fault her for this. With her, 585 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: I always her whole life was about rewriting her repitaph. 586 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: Her whole life in the last it's like. And then 587 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: he was indicted, and he was impeached, and he was acquitted, 588 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: and they wolf went off to Chappaquay together and she 589 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: just took a pencil with not so fast. Then she 590 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: went on to become a United States Senator from New 591 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: York and the Secretary of State and the first. But 592 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: what I'm hopeful about, and this is, you know, this 593 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: is the last vestige of my my passion for or 594 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: my faith in some shard of what this country is about, 595 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: is that she will get in there and she will 596 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: help to reshape the court, and we'll get the citizens united. 597 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: They taken care of once and for all, and sort 598 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: we gotta get the money out of this game we need. 599 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: I mean, the country has been run by Ivy League men. 600 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: Half the presidents since Kennedy had an Ivy League men 601 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: have Kennedy went to Harvard, uh Johnson went to Texas 602 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: State Teachers College, uh Nixon went to Whittier College, Ford 603 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: went to Michigan, Carter was in the Naval Academy. Reagan 604 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 1: went to Eureka College. And then we have Bush, Clinton, Bush, 605 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: Obama at four Ivy leaguers in a row. You know, 606 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: the best and the brightest have been running this country 607 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: for the last since nineteen and where's it gotten us? 608 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: I mean, no worse, no better than the non ivy leaguers. 609 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,760 Speaker 1: But the problem is the royal professional politicians, the roll people. 610 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: You think any of these people lay in bed. Do 611 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: you think for one minute, Hillary Clinton, forget about Trump. 612 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: They lay in bed and their significant others saying to them, 613 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: what's the matter, baby? I hear get tossed an in 614 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: turn over. Wait, oh, I just gotta I gotta work 615 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: out this whole social security just driving me. Actually, I 616 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I do think I do think Clinton 617 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: does do that. I mean, that's what defines the Clintons, 618 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: because their overwheming ambition is equally to fly in Air 619 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: Force one and to change change public policy. They are 620 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: as ambitious as technocrats as they are politicians. And you 621 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,919 Speaker 1: know that's the deal, that's the that's the devil's deal 622 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: when you when you get one of those and and 623 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: really all politicians, I mean almost by definition, anyone who 624 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,760 Speaker 1: would seek public office and due to themselves and their family, 625 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: the many many uh indignities that goes along with it, 626 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: including the brothel that is campaign finance. You have to 627 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: assume that there's something just off there. I you know, 628 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind if my daughter came home with a 629 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: motorcycle mechanic. I would really be upset if she came 630 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 1: back with some young guy in a white shirt and 631 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: orange tire running for Congress. I'd really be upset. Where 632 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: do you think we're gonna be? Do you think that 633 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: the network news? Because they have an edict apparently from 634 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: the from the government, the fairness doctrine, and also what's 635 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: the what's the law that they required to show the 636 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: news the Well, there was there was a public service 637 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: requirement that you had to maintain in exchange for having 638 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: a broadcast license and to use the public airwaves. I 639 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: don't think that has actually been lost since the Reagan administration. 640 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: I think the fairness doctrine is history. What happened, though, 641 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: in almost exactly the same time as they no longer 642 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: had to uh run public service content, is it became 643 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: enormously profitable. And back in the seventies, run Arledge, who 644 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: had gone from ABC Sports to ABC News, figured out 645 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, there's gold in 646 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: them our hills, And all of a sudden there's backwater 647 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: that they were doing out of civic duty and certain 648 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: amount of congressional impetus was making the money hand over 649 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: fist and uh, and it was that way until you know, 650 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: about ten years ago. In the network news is in 651 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: exactly the same situation that every other news organization. It 652 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: is in this death spiral of the media economy. And 653 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: now they're you know, they're cutting back and their audience 654 00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking, and the people who watch them 655 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: are not going to be around for much longer because 656 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: the average viewer of the CBS evening News has been 657 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: clinically dead since two thousand and six. So, uh, it's 658 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, they're facing they're facing the same kind of problem. 659 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: Do you think that in the likelihood that she wins? 660 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not just saying this because I'm a 661 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: supporter of hers, but do you think that considering the 662 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: likelihood that she would win, and then he's gonna go 663 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: wherever he goes? Um? Now we're here in Trump is 664 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: the nominee? What happens in the next round, who they're 665 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: going to run against? SOB me next time? What kind 666 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,240 Speaker 1: of person? Will they learn something from this? The only 667 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: I mean I'm trying to think. I'm trying to follow 668 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,399 Speaker 1: the trajectory. Remember a little while ago, I said this 669 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: was an inevitability that we had to come to this 670 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: because the party kept getting more the mainstream became more 671 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: and more fringe, the fringe became more and more mainstream. 672 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: And I suppose that Trump is the quintessence of that, 673 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: the apotheosis of UH, of perversion of whatever it is 674 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: the GP once stood for. But the correct you know 675 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: that the trajectory presumably can only get worse. But what's worse? 676 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I don't know that that monster from Alien 677 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: that comes out of his rib cage or hers, and 678 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. I the party rents previous is. I 679 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,919 Speaker 1: don't understand what's happening. How has he kept his job? 680 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: I mystified, what are they you know, what are they 681 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: going for? I guess it's all about of the Preme Court. 682 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: And that is true because listen, with the Congress being 683 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: in the state that it is, nobody's going to be 684 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 1: passing any stairs. Nothing is going to get through the converse, 685 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: it is going to be in an absolute standstill, I suppose. 686 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: And therefore, what you know, if there's no legislation. What's 687 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: the president going to be the president of Well, she 688 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: can start a war, you know, and she can appoint 689 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: the judiciary, and probably, but not necessarily, probably the Senate 690 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: will actually have to do its job and confirm or 691 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 1: not confirmed these these candidates. You know, there's already large backups, 692 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: including the Supreme Court seat, because the Senate has not 693 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 1: wanted to act on judiciary appointments. But presuming that can't 694 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: last forever, that they got to offer their advice and consent. Uh, 695 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: that's the president's the new president's influence, and that's what 696 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: it's all about. That's why evangelicals are are going to 697 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: vote for this buffoon, this apparently immoral or immoral, childish, 698 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: sleazy and I mean, you know, how did they Gosh, 699 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: how do you how have you pulled the lever? If 700 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: you're in Iowa evangelical, how do you go in and 701 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: pull the lever for this person? He's like the worst 702 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: person ever. And I want to say to people, I 703 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: want to say, like, you're atridive her. I really don't 704 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: get it. She's not that hate herble. I mean, I 705 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: have my reservations about her too, and I'm happy to 706 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: voice those, but I don't hesitate the voice those but 707 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,959 Speaker 1: when I see people going you hate her that much 708 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: that you're going to pull the lever for him as 709 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,399 Speaker 1: a as an expression of that wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, 710 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: it's the cookies, to tell you the truth. I think 711 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: it goes back to her saying she's not going to 712 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 1: sit around baking cookies, which was an insult to a 713 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: lot of cookie baking women who really cherished their roles 714 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: in what they perceived as the traditional American family. And 715 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: it was it was a spike in the heart of 716 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: their values and they will never ever forget it. Um. 717 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: My last question for you, and I want to phase 718 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: this carefully, is um, you know Howard Stern when I 719 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: would do Howard Sterns show, and most people who know 720 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: Howard know this that off Mike, he's nothing like he 721 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: is on mil on microphone. He's blown himself up to 722 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: use Jerry Seinfeld's term for his on stage sona. And 723 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: and for you, I'm wondering you know on your show 724 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: you are wonderfully so very angry and very bitter and 725 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: very cynical inside the content of your show, almost so 726 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: much so like sometimes I'll listen to you and I 727 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: think this guy's gonna have a heart attack on the 728 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 1: air while he's reporting this. A slow motion heart attack, 729 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: but a heart attack nonetheless. Um, is that is an 730 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: an accurate depiction of you. I think it's fair to 731 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:30,959 Speaker 1: say that you and I are b I am, we're 732 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: brothers in anger management issues, and uh that you know, 733 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: what you hear is what you get. I mean, I 734 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: get angry at telemarketers, now that is that's wasted anger. 735 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: But I'm anger that they're interrupting me. I'm angry that 736 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 1: they're lying to me, that they're criminals. It just makes 737 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: me mad. And you know, you think I would have 738 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: exorcised those demons long air. That's because they're not going away. 739 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: So why do I permit myself to get piste off 740 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: a lot? Pick? Either I'm the most honorable man and 741 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: I cannot separate the daily annoyances of life from actual 742 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 1: issues of moral conduct in this world. Or I have 743 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: a defect, and I'm not sure exactly what it is. 744 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: I'm guessing it's a little bit of both. You can 745 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: hear Bob Garfield and Brook Gladstone on the media on 746 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: over four hundred radio stations nationwide and on demand and 747 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,880 Speaker 1: on the media dot org. This is Alec Baldwin and 748 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: you were listening to here's the Thing