1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius, the production of iHeartRadio. Guess 2 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: what Will? 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 2: What's that Mango? 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: So did you know the world's largest bee isn't as 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: extinct as we thought, not as extinct we thought. 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: I gotta feel like that's too bad. No, it's actually 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 2: a good thing. How our giant monster bees a good thing. 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: So for starters, the vs aren't exactly monsters. They're only 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 2: about an inch and a half long, and they've got 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: a two and a half inch wingspan, so it's about 11 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: the size of a thumb or I guess three times 12 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: the size of the average honeybee, not the size of 13 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: mathras like you might be imagining. I mean maybe not. 14 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: But actually just pulled up a picture one of these 15 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 2: things while you were talking, and I have to say, 16 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: this is the most terrifying bee I have seen in 17 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: my life. Like, why do they have such massive pincers 18 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: on their faces? They almost look like these stag beetles, 19 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: but just creepier. 20 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I was trying not to mention that because 21 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: it makes them look so much scarier. But they're actually 22 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: just used to scrape resin off trees to build their homes, 23 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: so it's not that scary. But here's what's really interesting. 24 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: The species was first discovered in Indonesia, and this was 25 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 1: back in eighteen fifty nine, and then nobody could find 26 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: it again after that, so it was just presumed to 27 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: have gone extinct. And then in nineteen eighty four, this 28 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: entomologist stumbled across the bees alive and well in Indonesia 29 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: and he collected the specimen. He wrote about discovery, but 30 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: he didn't get any video or photos, and then the 31 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: bees trail went cold again. 32 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 2: But it sounds like now somebody has found them again. 33 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah, so they thought they were extinct, 34 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,919 Speaker 1: but it's totally right. In January this year, this photographer 35 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: named Clay Bolt actually made history by finding the giant 36 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: bees in the wild for the very first time. And 37 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: it sounds like it was a pretty surreal experience because 38 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: apparently the female bees make this really deep thrumming sound 39 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: with their wings, so he could not only hear them, 40 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: he could actually feel the air being displaced as they 41 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: flew by. And it was amazing because it's really this 42 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: creature that he'd only ever imagined about, right, and suddenly 43 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: he has this super tangible and memorable experience with them. Anyway, 44 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: Clay's account got me thinking that this week it would 45 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: be really fun to look into creatures that had come 46 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: back to life. And so that's what we're going to 47 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: talk about, all these weird cases out there where creatures 48 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: seemingly died and then returned. So let's dive in. 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 2: Hey, the podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 50 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good 51 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: friend mangesh Hot Ticketer and on the other side of 52 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 2: that soundproof class bringing a dead fern back to life 53 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 2: at least I think that's what he's doing. That's our 54 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: friend and producer Tristan McNeil. 55 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: Oh, is that what he's doing. I thought Tristan just 56 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: brought in his neglect did the houseplant? 57 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: Actually, Tristan's trick only works with one kind of plant, 58 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: what's called a resurrection fern, which is not the fern 59 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: that he's got over there. But you know, during a 60 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 2: drought or a heat spell, the ferns will turn brown 61 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: and they shrivel up, and if you look at them, 62 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: they look completely dead. But then you just splash a 63 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: little water on them and press though it takes like 64 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: twenty four hours and the leaves unfurl, turn green again, 65 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: and the whole thing is good as new. I mean, 66 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: it's kind of like magic. 67 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, it does sound like something you'd study at Hogwarts 68 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: in the homology class or whatever. 69 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: It's pretty cool. And even though it does seem like magic, 70 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: there is of course a scientific explanation on how these 71 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: ferns come back to life. These resurrection ferns never actually 72 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: die during this dying out process. In fact, these plants 73 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: can lose up to ninety seven percent of their water content, 74 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: and once they're exposed to water again, they'll still spring 75 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: right back. So you know, as long as the fern 76 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: can hold on to at least three percent of its water, 77 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: it actually won't die. 78 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: That's pretty incredible. So those numbers can't hold up for 79 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: most plants. 80 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: Right, No, with most plants, if they lose more than 81 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: ten percent of their water, they are completely done. And 82 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: so the saving grace for resurrection ferns is, you know, 83 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: it's their ability to synthesize these special proteins called dehydrants, 84 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: and so these allow the cell walls of the plant 85 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: to kind of fold and unfold as needed, rather than 86 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 2: just cracking and crumbling like other plants do when they 87 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 2: dry out and believe it or not, that's not the 88 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 2: resurrection ferns only claim to feign because back in nineteen 89 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: ninety seven, astronauts actually took a bunch of these ferns 90 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: with them on the Space Shuttle Discovery, and this was 91 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: a feat that earned the plant the title of first 92 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 2: fern in space. Isn't that special? 93 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: I like it? But what sort of experiments were they 94 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: running on these plants in space? 95 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: Well, basically, we wanted to see if the plants could 96 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 2: still resurrect themselves in zero gravity, and apparently they could 97 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: with no problem, and as later explained, the resurrection fern 98 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: quote proved to be a hardy space traveler and exhibited 99 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: regeneration patterns unaltered by its orbital adventure. So not only 100 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 2: can they cheat death, they can do it while rocketing 101 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 2: through space at thousands of miles an hour. 102 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,559 Speaker 1: I do like that, but to be fair, resurrection ferns 103 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: aren't the only ones to master the old back from 104 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: the dead routine, and it's not just flowers and trees 105 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: getting into the act either. The animal kingdom has its 106 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: own resurrection like events, including some insects and amphibians that 107 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: can freeze themselves during winter and then thaw out in 108 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: the spring totally alive and healthy. 109 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 2: But again, like with the ferns, those animals don't technically 110 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: die though, right right, but they come pretty close. 111 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: Like you can take the wood frogs, which we've talked 112 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: about forever ago on the show. But when temperatures drop, 113 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: the wood frogs go into what's basically this state of 114 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: suspended animation and all of their processes shut down. So 115 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: there's no heartbeat, there's no breathing, nothing, but their cells 116 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: stay alive regardless, and it's thanks to this handy adaptation 117 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: they've evolved that lets them survive for long periods without oxygen. 118 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 2: So I remember talking about them, but remind me how 119 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: long they can actually stay like that, so it can vary. 120 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: I mean, most wood frogs do this extreme hibernation for 121 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: a few days at a time to cope with like 122 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: a cold snap or something like that, but they can 123 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: stay frozen for longer, even for weeks if they. 124 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 2: Need to, which is pretty amazing. And you mentioned their 125 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: cells still receive oxygen during this big sleep, and that 126 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: makes sense. But what I'm wondering is how those cells 127 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 2: survive the freezing process at all. I mean, there's water 128 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: inside those cells, and water expands as it freezes to ice, 129 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: and so it seems like those newly formed ice crystals 130 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: would just break the cells apart from within. 131 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right, and it's a big part of 132 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: why a cryopreservation isn't really an option for humans. Our 133 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: cells just aren't equipped to handle a deep freeze. And 134 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: it's actually the same for wood frogs. If their cells froze, 135 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: they would die too. But that's why whenever there's this 136 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,679 Speaker 1: sub zero temperature that sets in the frog's central organ 137 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: starts expelling moisture, and this way the water surrounding their 138 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: organs freezes into ice, but their organs them cells, and 139 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: their cells don't. And that's not the only trick either. 140 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: Before a wood frog fully freezes, its body floods the 141 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: veins with a special glucose molecule that works like an 142 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: anti freeze. So when the glucose reaches the frog cells, 143 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: it'll dissolve in the water and bond with the water molecules. 144 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: And this means that water molecules in the cell won't 145 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,239 Speaker 1: be able to bind with other water molecules to form ice. 146 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: So even if the water in a cell reaches subzero temperatures, 147 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: it still won't freeze. 148 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: Okay, I think I got it. So they really use 149 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: the same strategy on a cellular level as they do 150 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: for like their central organs, right exactly. 151 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: But the more researchers learn about the frog's approach, the 152 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: better we get it perfecting things like freezing human organs 153 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: for transport, and that technique might help us perfect cry 154 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: of preservation in the future, you know, getting humans into 155 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: this act of resurrecting themselves, which is. 156 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: A little bit creepy, and also, if you think about it, 157 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: some humans have already jumped the gun on the whole 158 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: resurrection thing. I was actually reading about this rare phenomenon 159 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: called auto resuscitation, which is when a person who is 160 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: declared dead spontaneously comes back to life spontaneously. 161 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: So this isn't like a patient who's flatline that doctors 162 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: use those Z clamps on and jolten back to life. 163 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:04,679 Speaker 1: It's someone who comes back to life on their own. 164 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 2: That's right. So according to a two thousand and seven 165 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: medical review I believe this was the Journal of the 166 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: Royal Society of Medicine, there've actually been over thirty cases 167 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: of auto resuscitation since the initial report on this condition 168 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: back in nineteen eighty two. So on average, these patients 169 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: return to life did so about seven minutes after doctors 170 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: stopped administering CPR. One patient made it all the way 171 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: to the hospital morgue before suddenly returning to life. I mean, 172 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: can you imagine what that must have been like for 173 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 2: the poor folks who had to wheel that person down 174 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 2: there and in the morgue no less, but it's just 175 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: so like, of all places to witness someone coming back 176 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,479 Speaker 2: from the dead, this would have been such a weird experience. 177 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: So these people sort of pop back up? Did they 178 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: live for a while? 179 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 2: I mean, the sad reality is that the majority of 180 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 2: these patients die shortly after their auto resuscitated it. But 181 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: I think what's amazing though, is that in a little 182 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: over a third of the reported cases, the patients make 183 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,119 Speaker 2: a full recovery with little or no neurological damage. 184 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: That is wild. So do doctors have any idea of 185 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: why this is happening? 186 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's tough to say for certain, because 187 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: there've only been, like we said, thirty something cases reported 188 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: in the last forty years, and that's not a lot 189 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: of data to go on. But that said, the reports 190 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 2: do offer some clues about what might be going on here, 191 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 2: for instance, the use of CPR, which is something that's 192 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: in all of these reported cases. So remember I said 193 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: the patients came back a few minutes after CPR was stopped. Well, 194 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: that gap and time might actually be the key to 195 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: understanding the whole phenomenon. It's a little bit complicated, So 196 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: I pulled this good breakdown from the Smithsonian and here's 197 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 2: how they explain it. One popular theory is that dynamic 198 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: hyperinflation which can occur during CPR if the lungs are 199 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 2: rapidly filled with air without adequate time to exhale. In theory, 200 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: when emergency doctors stop CPR, the lung pressure caused by 201 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: dynamic hyperinflation returns to normal and the blood begins to 202 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: circulate with greater e, producing an auto resuscitation effect. 203 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: Huh, So, how can doctor's guard against this kind of thing? Like? 204 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: Is there a said amount of time they need to wait? 205 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: I don't think there's like a hard and fast rule 206 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: around this, but doctors who've studied the subject do recommend 207 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: waiting at least ten or fifteen minutes after CPR has 208 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: ceased before declaring someone dead, you know, just to be 209 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: on the safe side here. 210 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: That is so strange, Like there's this period of time 211 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: when death isn't necessarily final, that someone might still pop 212 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: back to life. 213 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's you know, it's not super likely, 214 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 2: but it does happen. It makes you wonder about where 215 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: the cutoff is, like that point past which death is irreversible. 216 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: It might be, you know, more fluid than we had 217 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: first guessed. 218 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, I was reading 219 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: about this concept people talk about in the conservation world 220 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: called the Lazarus taxon or a Lazarus species, and it's 221 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: basically a group of plants and animals that were believed 222 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: to be extinct but were later rediscovered in the wild. 223 00:10:58,360 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: Like the giant b I mentioned at the top of 224 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: the show. It's not the same as the biological resurrections 225 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: we've been talking about, but it's another interesting case of 226 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: death not being quite as final as we first looked at. 227 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: I definitely want to hear more about this, but before 228 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 2: we get to that, let's take a quick break. You're 229 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 2: listening to Part Time Genius and we're talking about Lazarus species. 230 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: These are the extinct plants and animals that turned out 231 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 2: to be not so extinct after all. And speaking of Lazarus, 232 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: I actually forgot to mention this earlier, but auto resuscitation 233 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: actually shares some biblical inspiration. It's actually nicknamed the Lazarus phenomenon. 234 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: Have you heard of this? So in both cases the 235 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 2: name is a nod to the New Testament story where 236 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: Jesus performs a miracle by raising this man named Lazarus 237 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: from the dead. So kind of a fun, if not 238 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 2: surprising bit of overlap between religion and science here. 239 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty cool. But the term Lazarus taxon was 240 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: coined in the nineteen eighties by a couple of paleontologists, 241 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: and they were studying the fossil record. They noticed some 242 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: organisms seem to disappear during one of Earth's massive extinction 243 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: events and then miraculously reappear on the record later, and 244 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: these species taken together, form what the scientists called the 245 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: Lazarus taxon. So these days the term applies more broadly, 246 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: not just to fossilized organisms, but also to living species 247 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: that have been rediscovered after the presumed extinction. Actually, there's 248 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: a slight variation on this called the elvis taxon, which 249 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: is species that seem like they re emerge, but it's 250 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: actually an impostor. This is a true thing. But back 251 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: to the Lazarus. Like you'd think it's this small club 252 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,719 Speaker 1: of species, but there are actually about three hundred and 253 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: fifty species on that list, includes everything from plants to 254 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: insects to every kind of vertebrae. 255 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 2: Oh wow, so it really runs the gamut. But what 256 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: are some of the most famous on the list, or 257 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: maybe just a few favorites you came across. 258 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: So my favorite species are the ones that turned up 259 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: in the super unexpected places, and one of the oldest 260 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: and most famous of these is definitely the seilican, which 261 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 1: is this ancient type of fish that was believed to 262 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: have gone extinct over sixty five million years ago. It 263 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: was in the supposed to be wiped out in that 264 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: same extinction event that claimed the dinosaurs. 265 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually think I've seen these guys before. They 266 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: live like way down deep, don't they. 267 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they're bottom dwellers for sure, But that's 268 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: part of the reason it took us so long to 269 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: find one alive. That said living silicans weren't discovered thanks 270 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: to some technological breakthrough or some sort of landmark expedition. Instead, 271 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: it all happened by sheer chance, and here's how it 272 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: went down. So in December nineteen thirty eight, this Natural 273 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: History Museum curator named Marjorie Courtney Latimer was strolling the 274 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: docks in East London, South Africa. Apparently she did this 275 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: often as part of her work for the museum. She'd 276 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: just visit the local fishermen and if anyone thought they'd 277 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: caught something interesting that day, Marjorie would take a closer 278 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: look at their catch. And on that December she indeed 279 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: found something interesting in the hall of this fisherman named 280 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: Captain Hendrik Goosen. So in his pile of fish there 281 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: was this bizarre looking fin that Marjorie had never seen 282 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: at the docks before, and this is how she described it. 283 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: I picked away at a layer of slime to reveal 284 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: the most beautiful fish I had ever seen. It was 285 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: pale mauve blue with faint flecks of whitish spots. It 286 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: had an iridescent silver blue green sheen all over it. 287 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: It was covered in hard scales, and it had four 288 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: limb like fins and a strange puppy dog tail. 289 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: Wait, let me make sure I have this raight. So 290 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: she found what is basically a living fossil, and this 291 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 2: was at a South African fish market. 292 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was actually really big too, So the 293 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: silicon she found at the market weighed one hundred and 294 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: twenty seven pounds, which made it tough to transport back 295 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: to the museum. And in the end Marjorie and her 296 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: assistant they managed to get the fish into the backseat 297 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: of a taxi, but they nearly got thrown of that too, 298 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: because the fish smelled so bad. Apparently, as they pushed 299 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: it through the door and finally got in, the driver 300 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: was shouting, no stinking fish in my tax Yeah her, I. 301 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: Mean, honestly, can you really blame the guys? 302 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you can. And once they explained the 303 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: circumstance and probably how big a tip they were going 304 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: to give, the driver agreed to help. Although that wasn't 305 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: the only obstacle Marjorie face that day. So when she 306 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: got the fish back to the museum, she still wasn't 307 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: sure what she'd found. Her expertise was actually in birds, 308 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: not fish, and when she asked the chairman of the 309 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: museum board to help her, identify the specimen. He told 310 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: her it's nothing more than a rock cot and then 311 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: he left to go on his holiday. 312 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny, it almost reads like parody. But well, 313 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: obviously the museum was no help. So how did Marjorie 314 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: ultimately crack this case? 315 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: So the first thing she did was to find some 316 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: way to preserve the fish long term. She tried the 317 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: morgue at her local hospital, but they flat out refused 318 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: to store fish, no matter how ancient it was, and 319 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: in the end she had to settle for getting it 320 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: taxidermied instead. So she reached out to a fish curator 321 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: at a different South African museum. This guy at JLB. Smith, 322 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: and she sent the description and sketches of what she'd found. 323 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: Within a month or so, Smith decided to make a 324 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: trip to see the fish for himself, and he definitely 325 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: wasn't disappointed with what he found. In fact, listen to 326 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: how he later described the day he arrived at Marjorie's museum. Quote, 327 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: although I had come prepared, the first sight of the 328 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: fish hit me like a white hot blast and made 329 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: me feel shaky and queer. My body tingled, I stood 330 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: as if stricken to stone. Yes, there was not a 331 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: shadow of a doubt, scale by sale, bone by bone, 332 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: finn by thin. It was a true silicon. 333 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: It must have felt like such vindication. 334 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, but plus it must have made the museum chairman 335 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: feel like such a chomp when he got back from 336 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: his vacation. 337 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 2: I mean, I know I said this earlier, but I 338 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: still can't believe she found an extinct species at a 339 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: fish market. It just seemed like such a weird place 340 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 2: to find this. 341 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: Well, the craziest part is that it wasn't even the 342 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: only time that's happened. In fact, there are plenty of 343 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: Lazarus species that have showed up at food markets. There's 344 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: the smooth toothed black tip shark that reappeared in this 345 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: fish market in the Middle East. There's the Laotian rock rat, 346 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: which was rediscovered at a meat market, and the Erican 347 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: forest turtle, which debuted at a food market in China. 348 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: But the list just keeps going. 349 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 2: Pretty sure you made up a couple of those, and 350 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 2: I'm not sure what it says about us in the 351 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: first place that we find so many supposedly extinct animals 352 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: on our dinner tables. Just it's just so weird. 353 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of makes me wonder if any Lazarus 354 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: species have actually gone extinct for real, like that way, 355 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: like the humans just ate too many of them without 356 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: scientists walking by and stopping them from eating. But I 357 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: know we've got a few more things to tackle, but first, 358 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. Welcome back to part time Genius. So, well, 359 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: I know you wanted to talk about the extinction, which 360 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: is the ability to bring vanished species back to life. 361 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: Do you think that's something we'll be able to do 362 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: one day? And if so, how long until we're all 363 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: riding Willie Manno's to work like God intended. 364 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's gonna be a little while 365 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: on that one. But yeah, to the question of weather 366 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 2: we'll be able to bring an extinct species back, I mean, 367 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: the truth is we already have, or at least we 368 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: sort of. 369 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,239 Speaker 1: Did, so I'm curious about this sort of you speak up. 370 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 2: Well all right, well, let me back up just a 371 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 2: little bit here. So have you ever heard of Celia, 372 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 2: who happens to be the last Bucardo? 373 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: No, it sounds like a Tolkien character, though. 374 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 2: It's actually an extinct species of Ibex that used to 375 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 2: live in Spain, And I think in southern France, and 376 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 2: so basically picture a mountain goat or a ram and 377 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: you're not far off from this. But all right, so 378 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: back in two thousand, the last Bucardo on Earth was 379 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 2: sadly crushed to death by a falling tree. And her 380 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: name was Celia. 381 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 1: Sure rip Celia, right right? 382 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 2: So that wasn't the end of the story there though, 383 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 2: because scientists tried to revive her species, and they used 384 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: the nucleus of a cell extracted intact from Celia. 385 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: So you're saying they cloned her, well sort of like. 386 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 2: This wasn't like with Dolly the sheep, where her nucleus 387 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: could be implanted in the egg of a sheep from 388 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 2: the same species. I mean, remember, Celia was the last 389 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: one and there weren't any of her kind around to 390 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 2: donate an egg, so instead, scientists inserted the nucleus from 391 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 2: Celia into the unfertilized egg cell of a different kind 392 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,719 Speaker 2: of Spanish ibex. Then they took the resulting embryo and 393 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: transferred it to the womb of a living goat. It's 394 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: just a lot of connections here. And almost a year later, 395 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: in July of two thousand and three, the first baby 396 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 2: Buchardo since Celia was born. 397 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: Which is kind of amazing. It sounds like some bizarre 398 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: science traducan like a buccardo wrapped in an ibex wrapped 399 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: in a living goat. But is the Bucardo back for real? 400 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: Now it's it's de extinct. No. 401 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, the baby Buchardo was born with a lung defect 402 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 2: and only survived seven minutes, and so that means that, 403 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: depending on how you look at it, the Bucardo has 404 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: really gone extinct twice at this point. I not the 405 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: happy ending we might have looked for, But of course 406 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 2: that's only if you consider that the bucardo made from 407 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: Celia's cell to be a true Bucardo and not some 408 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: kind of hybrid, you know, like a Spanish ibex with 409 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 2: Bucardo like traits. 410 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: I guess. So, I guess any other species we try 411 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: to de extinct would also be that way, right, Like 412 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: we couldn't make one hundred percent wooly mammoth. 413 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, it would always be an animal with cells that 414 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: most certainly contain elephant DNA and just a little bit 415 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 2: of mammoth DNA like the nucleus they took from Celia, 416 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: you know, and with the long extinct creature like a 417 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: wooly mammoth, you'd be even further into hybrid territory. And 418 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 2: that's because there aren't any living mammoths to harvest intact 419 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 2: nuclei from, so scientists will be working with far less 420 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: DNA than they had with Celia the bucardo. So all 421 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: the efforts that you hear about bringing back the wooly mammoth, 422 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: those aren't attempts to clone a mammoth so much as 423 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: they are attempts to make an elephant mammoth hybrid. And 424 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: so there are new genome editing methods like Crisper, so 425 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 2: scientists could kind of cheat a little bit by changing 426 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 2: the DNA sequences of elephants to it'll look a little 427 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 2: bit more like the DNA sequences of mammoths. That's why 428 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: I started by saying that the extinction is sort of possible. 429 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're willing to accept hybrids as the 430 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 2: real thing, or close enough to it, then I guess 431 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: the extinction will definitely be something we can do within 432 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 2: the next decade or so. But on the other hand, 433 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 2: if you want a full on recreation of a vanish species, 434 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 2: the same genes, same behaviors all of that. I mean, 435 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: that's pretty much never going to happen, and in most cases, 436 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 2: there just aren't enough ancient DNA lying around to completely 437 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 2: reconstruct an animal's genome. 438 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: So for all of us Jurassic Park fans, it does 439 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: sound like dinosaur and willing mammoth hybrids are still on 440 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: the table in the not so distant future, and gene 441 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: editing could actually get them looking pretty close to how 442 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: they did originally. 443 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's actually more like the Jurassic Park dinosaurs 444 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 2: then straight up clones would be anyway. And you know, 445 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if you remember, but in the movie 446 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: they filled the gaps in the DNA sequences with frog 447 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 2: DNA and they messed with the genomes so they actually 448 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 2: all have scales instead of feathers. So we're on the 449 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: verge of being able to do something pretty similar to that. 450 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: I mean, we'd probably use chicken DNA as our gap 451 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 2: instead of frogs, but the basic idea wouldn't be too 452 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: far off from that. 453 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: And so what about extinct species that have died out 454 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: more recently, like hundreds or thousands of years ago, for instance, 455 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: instead of millions, Like would those actually be better candidates 456 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: for de extinction absolutely. 457 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 2: I mean, the passenger pigeon is one example that comes 458 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: up a lot. They went extinct in the early twentieth century, 459 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 2: so recovering their DNA wouldn't be that difficult, and there's 460 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 2: a good chance the eggs from a related species of 461 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: pigeon might be close enough of a match to create 462 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 2: a viable embryo. But funnily enough is researchers say that 463 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: the easiest species to resurrect would actually be the neanderthal, 464 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: which is just so weird to think about. So, according 465 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 2: to Scientific American quote, there appear to be just slightly 466 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: more than thirty thousand genetic mutations that differentiate us from them, 467 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 2: and Homo sapiens is the complicated organism best understood by 468 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 2: human geneticists. So of course, bringing us, you know, a 469 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 2: sentient human species back to life is a giant ethical 470 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: can of worms. So I don't imagine we'll be bringing 471 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: Neanderthals back anytime soon, or at least telling myself that. 472 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: Which is probably for the best, because you know, I 473 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: read that even though there's no ideal candidate for de extinction, 474 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: the wily mammoth would still be the best choice, just 475 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: because of how much good will it would generate in 476 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: the public. And it makes sense if you think about it, right, 477 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: Like bringing back the willy mammoth has been a collective 478 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: dream for decades now. Plus they look big, free elephants, 479 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: like it just feels so much less threatening than a 480 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: t rex. 481 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 2: I mean, still pretty threatening, but I think you're right, 482 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 2: And there's actually another reason why raising the mammoth might 483 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: be the best way to go, and it's something that 484 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: you'd probably never guess, which is climate change. 485 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: So you're gonna have to explain this one. 486 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 2: All right. Well it sounds ridiculous, but there actually is 487 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: something to this. According to that GEO, Siberia was home 488 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: to mammos and these other giant grazing mammals about twelve 489 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 2: thousand years ago, and back then the entire region was 490 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 2: a grassland, not the moss covered tundra that it is today. 491 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: So I'm having a tough time understanding this year you're 492 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: saying the landscape changed into something less productive just because 493 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: the mamm it's one extinct. 494 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 2: It is possible, yeah, I mean, the idea is that 495 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 2: the mammos and the other grazing animals used to maintain 496 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: the grassy steps by, you know, trampling moss and shrubs, 497 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: breaking up the soil, fertilizing what they're droppings. But you know, 498 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 2: once the mammis went the way of the buffalo, the 499 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 2: moss and the trees took over, and this region gradually 500 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 2: transformed into a tundra. And so some researchers think that 501 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: reintroducing mammos to the tundra could actually cause the ecosystem 502 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: to shift back again. 503 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: Which is really interesting and good news for the mammoths 504 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: and maybe for any would be farmers in the region. 505 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: But how exactly would this help with climate change? 506 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's because the frozen ground in Siberia 507 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: contains a huge amount of carbon, about twice as much 508 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: as what's in the atmosphere already, and the only thing 509 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 2: keeping those carbon stores in check are the region's Arctic temperatures. 510 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 2: So as temperatures continue to rise, the chance of that 511 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: permafrost thawing out and that carbon being released rises with them. 512 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: And that's where the mammoths would come in. Like, if 513 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: they were able to transform the region back into a grassland, 514 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 2: the carbon stores just might stay put. And Smithsonian actually 515 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: had a nice breakdown of why this is exactly and 516 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: so here's how they explained it. Because grass absorbs less 517 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: sunlight than trees, this would cause the ground to absorb 518 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 2: less heat and in turn keep the carbon pools and 519 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,239 Speaker 2: their greenhouse gases on ice for longer. Large numbers of 520 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: mammoths would also trample snow cover, stopping it from acting 521 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: like insulation for the ground and allowing the permafrost to 522 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 2: feel the effects of the bitter Arctic winters. Again, this, 523 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 2: in theory, would keep the ground colder for longer. 524 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't see how anything could go wrong with 525 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: this plan. 526 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: Now it's gonna be great. 527 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: It is funny like, on one hand, resurrecting a species 528 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: kind of feels like playing god, and that's one of 529 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: the main arguments you'll hear from opponents of de extinction. 530 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: And yet at the same time, since humans were responsible 531 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: for so many recent extinctions, it also feels like we 532 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: were playing god when we wipe these creatures out in 533 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: the first place. So maybe bringing them back as a 534 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: way to right some of the wrongs our species has 535 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: done to nature, especially in cases like a Mammo's where 536 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: the revival might also benefit the environment as a whole. 537 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, but admitute, Mago, your main motivation is just wanting 538 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 2: to ride one to work. You said it earlier. 539 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean if writing a Willie manmot to work 540 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: is wrong, then brother, I don't want to be. 541 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: Right that dollar for every time he said that. All right, Well, 542 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 2: while we're waiting on science to deliver on that promise, 543 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 2: what do you say we have ourselves a quick. 544 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: Fact off sounds great? 545 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: All right, I'll kick it off here. So remember that 546 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: Siberian permafrost that we talked about a few minutes ago, Well, 547 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: it turns out it's home to more than just carbon deposits. 548 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 2: Just last year, researchers discovered that the frigid ground had 549 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: also preserved ancient life in the form of two forty 550 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 2: thousand year old nematodes, or roundworms. So, even more incredibly, 551 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: the researchers were able to successfully quote defrost the creatures, 552 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: according to a report from the Siberian Times. Isn't that amazing? 553 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: There's something called the Siberian Times, not the fact the 554 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 2: fact that there is a Siberian Times. I just love that. 555 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 2: And if that's true, then roundworms can endure cryo preservation 556 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 2: for way way longer than we thought. The previous record 557 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 2: for anema toad was it was revived like thirty nine 558 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: years of dormancy or something like that. But not only that, 559 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 2: it would also mean that those resurrected roundworms are now 560 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 2: the oldest living animals on the planet, and by a 561 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: pretty wide margin, of course. 562 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've got a weird one for you. The 563 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: name Lazarus came up a lot this week, so I 564 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: did some digging on the name itself, and it turns 565 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: out it's going through a bit of a resurgence right now. 566 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: According to rankings on the top baby naming sites, the 567 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: name Lazarus is now more popular than it's been in 568 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 1: over a century. 569 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: And so what are these reports based on exactly? 570 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot of the data comes from the 571 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: users on these sites, but the rankings also pull from 572 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: the Social Security Administration. So things like how many babies 573 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: born in twenty eighteen were named Lazarus shows up on this. 574 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: The data goes all the way back to about nineteen hundred, 575 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: which is when the name Lazarus was at its peak 576 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: as the one hundred and fifth most popular name in 577 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: the country. 578 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 2: Wait, and that was the name at its peak popularity. Yeah, 579 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 2: but you've got to keep this in perspective. For the 580 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: rest of the twentieth century, the name hovered between the 581 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: three thousand and four thousandth most popular name, and it 582 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 2: started to rise in the early nineties and now it's 583 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 2: back in the lowand it's just like it was about 584 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 2: one hundred years ago. Oh wow, it's impressive. 585 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: Well. 586 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 2: One neat thing I read about this week is an 587 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: experiment with cryopreserve seeds, and it's called the Project Baseline 588 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: Resurrection Approach. So basically, millions of seeds from different plant 589 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 2: species are being collected and then ship to a seed 590 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 2: bank in Colorado, and then they're kept on ice for 591 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: anywhere between five and fifty years. So the idea is 592 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: that once the time is up, scientists of the future 593 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: can actually warm up the seeds, plant them, and bring 594 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: them back to life. And that way they'll be able 595 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: to compare these ancestor plants with their descendants, you know, 596 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 2: which will be the plants collected from the exact same 597 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 2: location where the ancestor seeds were first harvested. And so 598 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 2: the hope is that by looking at this side by 599 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 2: side comparison across multiple decades, it'll actually allow the scientists 600 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 2: to see how a certain plant population changed over time. 601 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: That's really cool. It's kind of like a botanical time capsule. Yeah, 602 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: but okay, here's a good one I found about Caspian horses, 603 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: which Nattio describes as having the hallmark movie stylings of 604 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: all Lazarus species. So here's what happened. In nineteen fifty seven, 605 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: an American horse breeder and researcher named Louise Lelan married 606 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: this Iranian aristocrat named Narci Ferruz and they moved to 607 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: Tehran together, and a few years later, the couple opened 608 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: a children's riding academy so that Louise could share her 609 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: love of riding with all the locals. The only problem 610 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: was that the stallions native to the region were way 611 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: too rough and bad tempered for the kids to ride safely. 612 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: So Louise asked around and she hoped to find this 613 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: alternative horse for the kids, and she started hearing these 614 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: rumors about a group of strong but friendly miniature horses 615 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: that lived tucked away in this remote mountain region near 616 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: the Caspian Sea. So, based on that hunch, Louise got 617 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: some friends and they went on this expedition and sure enough, 618 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: they actually found the group of horses that they'd heard about, 619 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: and the more time she spent with them, the more 620 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: she realized they resembled this ancient lost breed of horse 621 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: that these Persian royals had carved all over their palaces. 622 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: It was called the Caspian horse, so Louise made the 623 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: connection almost immediately, but it wasn't until the nineteen nineties 624 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: that DNA testing was finally able to confirm her suspicion. 625 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: But Louise knew the horses pedigree from the start, so 626 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: she brought them back to Tehran for students, and to 627 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: this day, Caspians are still considered the ideal starter horse 628 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: for young riders. 629 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: Oh wow, all right, So to recap, a riding instructor 630 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: turned adventurer discovered a lost colony of royal horses and 631 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 2: then marched them back to civilization so that children of 632 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 2: Iran would have had something safe to ride. I don't 633 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 2: think I can top that today, Mega, so I think 634 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: you win the trophy. Congratulations, Thank you. 635 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: So much, and that does it for today's Part Time 636 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: Genius from Gabe Tristan Willelmy. Thank you so much for listening. 637 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: Part Time Genius is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 638 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 2: podcast from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 639 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.