1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristin. Today we're doing another fabulous listener 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: request talking about women in classical music, specifically conductors. And 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: what really struck me as Prison and I were reading 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: a lot about this field of work is that it 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: is such an interesting microcosm of feminist issues, women's issues 8 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: that we have touched on a million times in the podcast, 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: everything from gender discrimination to issues about whether to have 10 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: and raise children. It runs the whole gamut. Yeah, And 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why our listeners suggests that this 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: topic is because women conductors have been in the news recently. Right. 13 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: Conductor Marin Also, who's the music director of the Baltimore 14 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: and sal Paulo Symphony Orchestra, is made history in September 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: as the first woman to conduct the high profile Last 16 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: Night of the Proms. And it's nearly one and twenty 17 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: year history. And for those not in the know, I 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: was not in the know me neither. The Last Night 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,559 Speaker 1: of the Proms marks the end of London's eight week 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: summer season of classical music and it is a big deal. Yeah, 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: And so Alsop said, quote, A lot has been made 22 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: of me being the first woman to conduct the last Night, 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: and I'm incredibly honored and proud, but I have to 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: say it's amazing that there can still be a first 25 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: for women in two thousand thirteen. And that's just one 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: of many fantastic quotes that Alsop has made. Um And 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: we'll talk more about her a little bit in the podcast, 28 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: but she among women in conducting all stop is at 29 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: the top of her field, and she's very outspoken about 30 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: this issue of women in conducting. Although we should say 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: that's not the first time that Alsop was at the Proms. 32 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: Earlier in September she led the Orchestra of the Age 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: of Enlightenment, and last summer she led Essal Apollo Symphony 34 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: Orchestra at the Proms as well. And unfortunately it wasn't 35 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: just the merit of her own accomplishment that landed her 36 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: in the news. It was also the reaction that her 37 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: accomplishment garnered, mainly from Russian men. Uh So, in early September, 38 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: Vasily Patrinka, who's the principal conductor of the National Youth 39 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: Orchestra and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic said a whole bunch 40 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: of stuff, and I'm picturing him like running his mouth 41 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: and not being able to stop it. He one of 42 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: the many things he said was a cute girl on 43 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: a podium means that musicians think about other things. And 44 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: this is like an age old argument, I guess against 45 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: having women as conductors. They say that, you know, as 46 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: opposed to a mail conductor, during which you know, musicians 47 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: have less sexual energy and can actually focus on the muse. Sick. Yeah. 48 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: He also went on to say that when women have families, 49 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: it becomes difficult to be as dedicated as is demanded 50 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: in this business. Now, I will say that Petrenko obviously 51 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: was called out for these kinds of sexist comments, and 52 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: then he backtracked and said, no, you're misunderstanding what I 53 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: was saying. My wife actually is in an orchestra. I 54 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: love women in music. It's kind of like making a 55 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: racist statement and then saying, but I have a friend 56 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: who was black. Um, it does not take away actually 57 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: the heart of what you are saying. But this is 58 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: also not the first time that statements have been made 59 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: like this, because a year ago Uri Tamir Khanoff, who 60 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: was Mary and Eli STEP's predecessor at the Baltimore Symphony 61 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: was being interviewed and he said a woman should be beautiful, likable, attractive. Yeah, 62 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: you're a and then he goes on to say musicians 63 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: will look at her and be distracted from the music. 64 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: Oh come on, yeah, And I mean everybody's come up 65 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: with arguments against that, like really logical, common sense arguments 66 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: like are you are you telling me that there aren't 67 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: people in the orchestra already who would be attracted to 68 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: an attractive, good looking, handsome conductor who is male, Like 69 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: who cares? Like aren't you there in the orchestra to 70 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: play music right? Well? And I mean that statement is 71 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: also saying that that women are are merely useful when 72 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: they sit still and look pretty. Um. But this issue 73 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: of the this idea of the male conductor of the maestro. 74 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: You know, the title of this podcast is the Maestras 75 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: of Classical Music, because a lot of times when we 76 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: think of the conductor, it is a dude. And that 77 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: was something that Alex Ross wrote about um in The 78 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: New Yorker recently. Yeah, he said that the principle of 79 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: male power is so deeply ingrained in the mythology of 80 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: the conductor that sentiments such as these are still not uncommon, 81 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: and he calls it the stiflingly male atmosphere in the 82 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: upper echelons of classical music that reinforces the image of 83 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: a dim, hide bound art out of tune with modern reality. 84 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: I mean, it is kind of ikey and weird to 85 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: look at the the profession of classical music and orchestra 86 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: conducting and see just how backwards it still is. Women 87 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: have to actively, it seems like, hide their femininity to 88 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: pass as an acceptable conductor. Well, and that doesn't sound 89 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: different from a lot of other areas that we've talked 90 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: about in terms of more traditionally male dominated professions or 91 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: uh areas of academia, etcetera. So, even though classical music 92 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: might seem like an esoteric subject to talk about, one 93 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: of the things that we were so surprised about and 94 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: looking into the research for this podcast is how again 95 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: and again and again it's going to echo into other 96 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: areas that you know, spread well beyond claud psicle music. Um. 97 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: For instance, there are differences in the way that we 98 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: as the audience perceives the music and the way that 99 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: music is conducted by women. According to a study published 100 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Consumer Psychology in February of two 101 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: thousand twelve. Yeah, and a lot of how we view 102 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: women and men ourselves is reflected in how we view 103 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: an orchestra depending on who it is conducted by. So 104 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: the researchers found that those who believed they were listening 105 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: to a woman conductor, they were obviously not out of performance. 106 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: They were listening to music through headphones. Uh, they said. 107 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: Those who believe they were listening to a woman conductor 108 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: raided the performance higher in feminine qualities such as elegance 109 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: and delicacy versus more male qualities like us booming sound 110 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,239 Speaker 1: or something um. Overall, they gave the performance higher grades 111 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: than those who believe they were listening to a man 112 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: and so boiling it down. The researchers determined that if 113 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: someone can defy gender stereotypes and earn that much acclaim, 114 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: we assume she must be absolutely amazing, and we judge 115 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: her accordingly. So kind of like the mayor and alsops. 116 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: You know, this trailblazing woman who is at the top 117 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: of conducting, not just as a woman but just for 118 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: orchestras in general. She often is lauded as being so amazing, 119 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: not because she's not amazing, but also I think that 120 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: is elevated a bit because of her gender. Look, a 121 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: woman's doing it, Yes, it must be incredible. So, speaking 122 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: of Alsop, we know that in that case there's at 123 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: least one woman conducting an orchestra out there. But what 124 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: is the field like? I mean, the Guardian newspaper called 125 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: it one of the last glass ceilings in the music industry, 126 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: and that's quite a statement, and it's one that is 127 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: slowly cracking. According to Henry Fogel, who's the former president 128 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: of the League of American Orchestras, back in two thousand seven, 129 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: he pointed out that it's safe to say that until 130 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: the past fifteen or so years, there simply was no 131 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,239 Speaker 1: woman with an important international conducting career. We're not saying 132 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: that there were no women conducting, We're just saying that 133 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: major orchestras, you know, women like Mari and alstop heading up. 134 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: The kind of orchestras of that caliber just weren't around. 135 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: And we did see in the nineteen eighties. That's that's 136 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: when we see a small surgeon female conductors led by 137 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: composer conductor Victoria Bond Buffalo philharmonic conductor Joanne Filetta, and 138 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: of course Mayre and Alsop, and in conservatories or graduate 139 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: schools and music women are making up about half of 140 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: orchestral musicians, but their numbers in the actual orchestras are 141 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: pretty small, and among conductors it's really small. And that 142 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: again not to keep trying to apply this to other areas, 143 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: but that sounds a lot like the situation for Oh, 144 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, women in science, women in stem. Yeah, 145 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's what I found so interesting about 146 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: it that it does perfectly reflect other fields like that 147 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: that are traditionally male dominated. And so in two thousand nine, 148 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: The l A Times pointed out that women head up 149 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: only about twelve percent of the country's symphonies, and even 150 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: training programs are are male dominated. To you know, you 151 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: mentioned graduate schools and conservatories, but only a handful of 152 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: conducting fellowships are offered to women, giving them that leg 153 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: up in the field. And because of that, and also 154 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: because Mayor and Alsop is such an awesome woman, she 155 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: has set up a fellowship specifically to devote to women 156 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: who are interested in conducting, to train them, to fund 157 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: their education for that and mother Jones in light of 158 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: those sexist comments that were made about Alsop conducting at 159 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: the proms UH, they did a tally of orchestras in 160 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: the US and they found that about eight percent are 161 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: led by men, around are conducted by women, and that 162 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: includes assistant and substitute conductors. But then when you break 163 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: it down to high budget US orchestras are led by men, 164 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,479 Speaker 1: twelve by women. But then when you get into the elite, 165 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: the twenty two highest budget orchestras in the United States, 166 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: twenty one led by men, one led by a woman, 167 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: Marin al Sap, And I will say that um al 168 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: Sap has a makers profile over at PBS dot org 169 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: and she talks about um how when she was at Juilliard, 170 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: she told her teacher that she wanted to become a conductor, 171 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: and the teacher just responded and it was a woman too, 172 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: who said, Maren, keep playing your violin and be quiet 173 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: because women can't conduct orchestras. I mean, come on, And 174 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: she decided at that moment that she still wanted to 175 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: do it. And it was so cool because she talks 176 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: about how she went home and told her mom a 177 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: out that story and how her mom went out and 178 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: bought her a box of batons, right, so talking about 179 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 1: stuff mom did tell you, Oh my gosh, yeah, that's great. 180 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: I mean my mom, well, my mom would have gone 181 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: and beat the teacher up, but just thrown the whole 182 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: box at him. Um. But so we mentioned at the 183 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: top of the podcast just how much conducting reflects broader 184 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: society as far as gender norms and discrimination goes. And similarly, 185 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: women in conducting also grapple with a lot of the 186 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: same issues of motherhood and whether or not to have children. 187 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: This is coming from a two thousand six report called 188 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: Conducting Motherhood The Personal and Professional Experiences of Women Orchestral Conductors, 189 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: and it was written by Bertie Lee Bartley, who is 190 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: a conductor herself. She spoke with seventeen professional women conductors 191 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: across the US, UK and Australia, five of whom were mothers. 192 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: So bart Wheat found that there are a few mothers 193 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: working in the orchestral conducting profession, but for those who are, 194 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: their private concerns about child rearing haven't been seen as 195 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: relevant to their work because there's this assumption that they 196 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: should just be able to excel and we shouldn't have 197 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: to talk about it. Because you know, if you if 198 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: you can't cut it, you know, if it's too hot 199 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: in the kitchen, get out. Isn't that I was saying 200 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: coats right? Yes, if you can't conduct your orchestra in 201 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: a hot kitchen, where can you conduct it? Exactly? Something 202 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: like that someone sew on a building and this I 203 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: mean you might think, okay, well, what's wrong with that? 204 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: You know, maybe you shouldn't bring your your home life 205 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: to work, Maybe you shouldn't talk about it and make 206 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: yourself all special because you have ovaries. But this really 207 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: actually has ramifications for future conductors and the profession as 208 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: a whole. If the profession and the culture cannot be 209 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: flexible enough to accommodate moms, women, young girls who grow 210 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: up they want to be conductors, but then they hit 211 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: that wall that we've talked about in previous episodes of 212 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: like do I lean in? Do I continue to pursue 213 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 1: my career and you know, go after a mari and 214 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: all stop like level of a career who does have 215 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: a child? Who does yes, you know, or do they 216 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: take a step back and focus more on their family 217 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: because the whole thing about conducting is that it is 218 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: brutal as far as travel schedules, all of that. Yeah, 219 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: I did not realize before looking more into this. I 220 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: just hadn't dawned on me of how aggressive the schedule 221 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: is for someone who is UM at the top of 222 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,599 Speaker 1: the conducting world, because you're going to be going to 223 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: London to conduct the prompts and then you might be 224 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: going to Style Palo to. Basically I want to be 225 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: Marin also, right if that's not coming through UM. So 226 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: clearly there are issues of not just time but also 227 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: travel and being away from home a lot. And so 228 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: Bartley found in talking to these women conductors were that 229 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: was that there's this fear that any discussion of motherhood 230 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: would serve to marginalize them even more and that's not 231 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: going to help them out when they're already such a minority, right, 232 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: you know, don't don't make yourself separate, don't make yourself 233 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: any more different than you are. Just don't talk about it. 234 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: But like we said, you know, the less you talk 235 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: about it, the less it will ever get addressed. And 236 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: so pregnancy is really seen as disruptive to the profession, 237 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: not only personally to you the conductor, but some people 238 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: say that you know something that is so obviously feminine, 239 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: as being pregnant is disruptive to the whole process, you know, 240 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: And so a woman being tired during pregnancy or nauseated, 241 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: you know, that's seen as weakness, while men who are tired, 242 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: you know, and they're jets setting all over the place, 243 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: they get excuses made for them. Yeah, there was one 244 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: conductor that she talked to who conducted through her eighth 245 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: month of pregnancy and was just saying how she was 246 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: so determined to never let, for instance, symptoms of morning 247 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: sickness ever be known to anyone in the orchestra, because 248 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, she didn't want to undermine her own authority, 249 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: because that's one thing I mean, for for al stop 250 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: and for other women as well. Getting that sense of 251 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: authority from your orchestra can also be an uphill climb 252 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: for women, and so when you toss motherhood into that, unfortunately, 253 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: it often serves to erode that sense of authority, right, 254 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: and then we get into the whole argument of having 255 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: it all, which you know we talked about and our 256 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: len in episodes. You know, Uh, Bartley's conversations with these 257 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: conductors really did focus on the fact that they know 258 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: they can't have it all. They know there's no such 259 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: thing as having it all. You have to sacrifice a 260 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: whole lot if you want to quote unquote have it all. 261 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: It's more about doing it all and you can't. Well, 262 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: it was interesting too in this study to read about 263 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: how a number of these women were child free by 264 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: choice and they had no qualms about it. I mean, 265 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: like a lot of times, the conversations that we hear 266 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: about women who choose intentionally to not have kids so 267 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: that they have more time and energy to devote to 268 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: their careers, there's often a lot of guilt attached to that. 269 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: But for whatever reason, I didn't get that sense from 270 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: a lot of these women, maybe because of the determination 271 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: it already took to get to the point that they 272 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: were in their professions. Um, but it was kind of refreshing, honestly, 273 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: to where I was just like, No, I don't have kids, 274 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: and I'm an orchestra conductor, and that's what I wanted. 275 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: That's how I saw my life. Right. One of them 276 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: was talking about how, um, she would rather do something perfectly, 277 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: and she had dedicated her life to conducting, and so 278 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: she wanted to do that perfectly. And she said that 279 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: if she had a child the guilt that she would 280 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: feel about not being able to do either one right, 281 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: raise a child or be a conductor would be too 282 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: much for her. And so there are a lot of 283 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: these female conductors out there who joke about, I need 284 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: a wife because there are so many um women out 285 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: there who are married to male conductors and they dedicate 286 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: their lives completely to their husband's career, supporting him, you know, 287 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: being there to take care of the kids, take them 288 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: to school and all that. But if you are the 289 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: mom and traditionally you're expected to do all that stuff, 290 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: like it just it seems overwhelming and impossible. It's like 291 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: the clash of the traditional female private sphere versus the 292 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: more male public sphere, which comes up when you look 293 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: at the evolution of orchestras and women's place in orchestras 294 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: and conducting, going back to when orchestras first began taking 295 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: shape at the end of the seventeenth century, right and 296 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: they started out as just small ensembles. And what is 297 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: considered to be one of the biggest musical developments in 298 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: the world is the expansion of orchestras from that small 299 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: European ensemble in the seventeenth century to the present day 300 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: configuration of about a hundred players, which emerged in the 301 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: nineteenth century at the same time that the powerful conductor 302 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: emerged and his his role became so publicized and so 303 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: gradually as the popularity of orchestras and larger orchestras picked up, 304 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: the role of conductor gained popularity and prominence um But 305 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: before that, in the Baroque period, for instance, musical leadership 306 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: would sometimes come from the harpsichordist or organists, and other 307 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: times a musical director would stand somewhere random and just 308 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: conduct off the side. I kind of like that image, Yeah, 309 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: just like he's just in a closet somewhere, like they 310 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,479 Speaker 1: can sense it right exactly. But then around eighteen hundred, 311 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: the keyboard takes a backseat to stringed instruments, and composers 312 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: started combining different instruments sounds, so the first violinist would 313 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,479 Speaker 1: lead the performance from his chair, or a music director 314 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,479 Speaker 1: would lead the part of performance with gestures using a 315 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: rolled up piece of paper or a stick, which led 316 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: to today's batons. If I were a side note, if 317 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: I were to conduct in orchestra, I would like to 318 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: use pretzel sticks. That way I could snack, but I 319 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: could have also replenished and conduct I was honestly so 320 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: excited to hear what you were going to say. I 321 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: was thinking carrot, because the whole reason they use a 322 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: white stick is so that the orchestra can see it. Well, 323 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: I don't want to eat a carrot though. That's not 324 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: as delightful as maybe a chocolate, but but imagine it. 325 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: It's so much more comedic. It's like a bugs bunny thing. 326 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: Like conducting with this big orange carrot with the green 327 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: leaves hanging down. Classical music fans right now or our 328 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: musicians are cringing at the thought. I'm sure of a 329 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: conductor with a carrot, right. So then we move on 330 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: to the early eighteen hundreds, and that is when we 331 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: see the conductor composers begin to stand up on a 332 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: podium front and center as orchestras grew, because, like we said, 333 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: as those orchestras expanded to what we know today to 334 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: be about a hundred people, they kind of needed to 335 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: be up higher where they could be seen. Um. And 336 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: to give a little bit of history as far as 337 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: the development of orchestras themselves, eighteen forty two, we have 338 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: America's first and oldest existing professional orchestra, the Philharmonic Society 339 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: of New York, which later became the New York Philharmonic. 340 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: And by we had four quote unquote established orchestras in America, 341 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: which were Boston, Chicago, Cincinnati, Random I'm sorry, not your 342 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: friend anyone in Cincinnati, but like Okay, and then Pittsburgh. 343 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: There were others, of course, but they just weren't as 344 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: established and stable. Now. Women were not discouraged from playing 345 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: music at that time. No, Certainly, playing instruments was something 346 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: that would be part of a refined woman's education, but 347 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: only for the purpose of making her more into a 348 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: marriageable lady. Kind of rounds out your home bound status, 349 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,959 Speaker 1: because not only can you cook and you can clean, 350 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: and you can do your arles and corset lace up 351 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: your courset really tightly, but you can also play a harpsichord. 352 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: So many marketable skills. What can't she do? Nothing can 353 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: hold her back now, she throws her bonnet into the air. Allah, 354 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: Mary Tyler Moore. Nothing can hold her back now except 355 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: for the lack of transportation out of her own home. 356 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: That's right, because her early group participation was limited to 357 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: family ensembles. You were expected to be a classy lady 358 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: who sat on your fainting couch and played the harpsichord 359 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: as your father and mother did other instruments. Although I 360 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: will say that my dad plays the piano and my 361 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: siblings were very musical. I just sang very much off key, 362 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: and there would be times growing up when we would 363 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: gather around yield piano and it was a delight. George's 364 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: version of the Von trap that's right, the Von Congress. Well, so, uh, 365 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: you you might be wondering why, if you're a new 366 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: listener to our podcast, you might be wondering why these 367 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: women were not allowed to participate in the larger orchestra environment. 368 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: Um and Scientific American really sums it up. They describe 369 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: how women's physical incapacity to endure the strain of rehearsal 370 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: and performances prevented them from matching or surpassing male performers, 371 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: because remember those hysterical floating uteruses and tiny waists made 372 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: it hard for women to I don't know exist. Well, 373 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: I mean, if we are talking about the corset era, 374 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: where your outfit might be weighing up to twenty five pounds, 375 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: probably sitting and playing a music for a really long time. 376 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 1: Was not very easy to do, but there was a solution. 377 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: Ladies orchestras were formed. In eighteen eighty four, what is 378 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: believed to be the first all female orchestra is established 379 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: in Chelsea, Massachusetts, YEP. And that's followed by more in 380 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: Los Angeles and Philadelphia, Chicago and others. And then moving 381 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: forward through time as we hit the twentieth century, the 382 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: conductor position becomes even more prominent and influential, and he 383 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: has hailed for his public showmanship. He essentially becomes a 384 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: figurehead of overall musical culture. And it is cemented that 385 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: it is a masculine strong position, not a woman's job. 386 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: But that's not to say though, that there weren't women 387 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: conductor pioneers. Even though there they might not have been 388 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,959 Speaker 1: leading to Philharmonic, they were still leading orchestras. Uh an 389 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: Tonia Bricko is one that we need to mention. She 390 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: let her own orchestras in New York in the nineteen 391 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: thirties and devoted her life to fighting prejudice against women 392 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: in the orchestral world. Yeah, her Women's Symphony Orchestra flourished 393 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: from nineteen thirty five to thirty nine when it became 394 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: known as the Brico Symphony Orchestra, and in nineteen thirties 395 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: she became the first woman to conduct the Berlin phil Harmonic. 396 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: Seven years later she was the first woman to conduct 397 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: an opera performance by a major New York company, and 398 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: in night she became the first woman to conducted the 399 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: New York Philharmonic. That so I was wrong about them 400 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: not conducting the New York Philharmony. Well, but not totally 401 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: wrong because typically back in these days it was like 402 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: a one time guest performance. So it was like, um, 403 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: almost like a side show. Yeah, I mean a little 404 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: more classy than us, but basically it was like, look 405 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: at this woman doing this thing, isn't that fancy? Well? 406 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: I also liked that Bricko once said, I do not 407 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: call myself a woman conductor. I call myself a conductor 408 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: who happens to be a woman. Yeah, And I mean 409 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: that speaks to just the dedication that that position takes, 410 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: and the dedication and hootspah it takes to enter that 411 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: male sphere. And then we have Nadia Boullinger, who is 412 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: a composer conductor who did consider her self more a composer. 413 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: But it should be noted that in nineteen thirty seven 414 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: she was the first woman to conduct an entire program 415 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: of the Royal Philharmonic in London. She just didn't make 416 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: a one stop, you know, conduct one piece and then leave. 417 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: And the following year, in nineteen thirty eight, she appeared 418 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: as the first woman conductor of the Boston, New York 419 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: Philharmonic and Philadelphia Orchestras. And Sarah Caldwell made a lot 420 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: of in roads, not just in classical music, but also 421 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: in opera. She ran an opera company at Boston University 422 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty two, and later that decade started her 423 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: own company, and she was both the director and the 424 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: conductor in nineteen seventy four, she became the second woman 425 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: to conduct the New York Philharmonic. And I mean even then, 426 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: though the first time was in with Bullinger in nineteen 427 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: thirty eight, that's quite a gap of years there. Um 428 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: in in nineteen seventy six, so she also became the 429 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: first woman to conduct at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. 430 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: Well I thought it was interesting that in nineteen seventy four, 431 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: when she conducted the New York Philharmonic, the program was 432 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: partially sponsored by Miss magazine, and she offered only works 433 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: by women. Hey, women helping out women, tooting a horn 434 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: probably literally or many of French, so many horns, even 435 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: a tuba. And finally, on our list are very short 436 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: list of amazing conductor lady conductor trailblazers. We have Judas Emoji, 437 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: who became the first woman to conduct an opera in 438 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: the US, and in nineteen seventy four she became the 439 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: New York City Opera's first female conductor. Seventy four, that 440 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: was quite a year for women in classical I'm telling 441 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: you the seventies like and that's leading up to that 442 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: push we talked about earlier in the eighties when we 443 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: see Marin alsap So the work of these early pioneers 444 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: has a direct influence on more women getting those appointments. Yeah, 445 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: if it were not for these women, we might not 446 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: even be talking about what a terrible sexist v athelete 447 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: Patrinko is. Exactly. It all ties together, And I know 448 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: we've only cited a few names, and we've said Marin 449 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: Alstop's name so many times, but we should say that 450 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: there are a lot of women today who are conducting 451 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 1: um smaller medium and even more elite orchestras. Not just 452 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: in the United States. Actually the picture is better when 453 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: you go over to Europe. A lot of women will 454 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: get international appointments first and then come back to the 455 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: United States with that cred and be able to get 456 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,479 Speaker 1: more appointments that way. Um, so it's getting better. I 457 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: think that even though Petrenko's comments are cringe worthy, it's 458 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: certainly sparked a conversation. Yeah, and and that is the 459 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: important thing. As we said before on the podcast, Without 460 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: people uh talking about it, you know, nothing's going to change. 461 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: Just as within conducting, if you don't talk about motherhood 462 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: and the issues around family and all that stuff, that's 463 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: not going to change. On the larger scale, if if 464 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: if we didn't have a lady like Maren all Thought 465 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: conducting the last night of the proms, then maybe we 466 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: would never have had this podcast episode. Well, and before 467 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: the listeners suggested this topic, I hadn't even thought about this. 468 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm not a classical buff. I listened to classical music, 469 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: but it's not a world that I'm immersed in. But 470 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: like with a lot of other topics that we talked 471 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: about on the podcast, there's so much to these issues 472 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: that that relate to um broader women's issues. So I 473 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: hope this has been enjoyable. And we did not even 474 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: talk about composers. I know that I think you did 475 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: some preliminary research on that, Caroline, and it's a little 476 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: bit better for women in classical composition. But I really 477 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: want to hear from women who are in orchestras. If 478 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: there are any conductors listening women or men who are 479 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: in a classical let us know your thoughts. Mom Stuff 480 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is where you can send them, 481 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: or you can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast, or 482 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook and leave us a message there. 483 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: And we've got a couple of messages to share with 484 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: you right when we come back from a quick break. 485 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: And now back to our letters. Well, I've got an 486 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: email here from Dennis and the subject line is gay 487 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: Latino Males Perspective on Feminism, Womanism and Solidarity. And this 488 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: is in response to our podcast on Latina feminism and 489 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: its solidarity for white women, and he writes, I'm a 490 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: homosexual male feminist and I also am a Latino person. 491 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: I grew up in a very Americanized household, but there 492 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: were still vestiges of our deeper Mexican culture. So I 493 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: feel I have a perspective of how the American patriarchy 494 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: and Latino machies no attitude influenced the women in my 495 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: family and those of us in my family who are 496 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: LGBT people. This unique perspective has molded me into a 497 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: bit of a civil rights divis and I'm beginning to 498 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: work actively in my community to support the gender, sexual, 499 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: and romantic minorities in my largely Litino community. I hope 500 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: to help in the fight to break down some more 501 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: patriarchal views here in my town and make it a 502 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: more welcoming area for underrepresented minorities. I can see how 503 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: feminism from the past and even to the nineties was 504 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: very much centered on white middle plus women and kind 505 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: of left women of color, trans people and mail allie 506 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: to the wayside. I do think now that third way 507 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: feminism has become very intersectional and feminism will have more 508 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: inclusiveness for people of all races and genders in the 509 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: near future, thanks in part to increase exposure women of 510 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: color feminists and queer feminists on the Internet and through 511 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: the recognition of privilege by white feminists and using the 512 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: platforms that they have to open up discussion for people 513 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: of color, much like you two have done so wonderfully. 514 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: So thanks Dennis. All right, I have one here from Caitlin. 515 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,239 Speaker 1: She says, I just caught up on all of the 516 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: lean In dedicated podcasts and a few other episodes of 517 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: Yours is We again, and it was all especially helpful. 518 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: I'm being let go from my job of five years 519 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: because changes are being made on a higher level that 520 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: deem my position unnecessary. I thought I'd be here forever, 521 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: negotiating check. I need to ensure that I not only 522 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: get employed, but also that I make what I deserve. 523 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: Feeling impostor syndrome, yep, what have I been doing for 524 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: the last five years? How can I even pretend to 525 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: be worth something when my work is now unnecessary? Dealing 526 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: with anger A big fat yes, though I'm trying to 527 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: control it in positive ways, being BOSSI or assertive. I 528 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: need to be the latter, though I was also called 529 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: the former in my youth. I feel even more ready 530 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: to take on the job market and advocate for myself 531 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: on my next adventure. And then she says, if anyone's 532 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: also going through being let oh, I got some great 533 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: advice recently that I wanted to share. One It's a business, 534 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: not a family. They're not obligated to keep you, even 535 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: though they care about you too. You are not your 536 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: job title. You perform that function and you are good 537 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: at it, but it is not who you are. That's 538 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: made up of so much more, and it is how 539 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: you determine your next steps. So thank you for the 540 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: awesome advice and perspective, Pitlin, and good luck on your 541 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: job search. Yeah, I really liked how she's offering. Ad 542 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: had a different perspective on leaning in other than you 543 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: know how you do it while you are in your job, 544 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: because I'm sure a lot of women can and men 545 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: listening can relate to that situation. Unfortunately, or sessions are 546 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: the worst. So if you have any thoughts to send 547 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: our way, though, moms have a discovery dot com is 548 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: where you can do it. You can also tweet us 549 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff Podcast, find us on Facebook as well, 550 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: and follow us on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told 551 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: You for some photo fun and also what's fun is 552 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: autumbalu stuff Mom Never Told You dot tumbler dot com 553 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: where you can find episodes, blog posts and other fun 554 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: things that we find on the Internet. And finally, you 555 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: can check us out on YouTube. Head over to YouTube 556 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: dot com slash stuff, Mom Never told you, and don't 557 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: forget to subscribe. For more on this and thousands of 558 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: other topics, visit how staff works dot com.