1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World, there's a new invisible 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: force at work in our economic and cultural lives. It 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: affects every advertisement we see, every product we buy, from 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: our morning coffee to a new pair of shoes. Stakeholder 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: capitalism makes rosy promises of a better, more diverse, and 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: environmentally friendly world. But in reality, this ideology, championed by 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: America's business and political leaders, robs us of our money, 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 1: our voice, and our identity. The modern woke industrial complex 9 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: divises us a people by mixing morality with consumerism. America's 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 1: elites prey on our innermost insecurities about who we really are. 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: They sell us cheap social causes and skin deep identities 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: to satisfy our hunger for a cause and our search 13 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: for meaning. At a moment when we as Americans now, 14 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: a young entrepreneur makes the case that politics has no 15 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: place in business and sets out a new vision for 16 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: the future of American capitalism. V Ramaswami founded multi billion 17 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: dollar enterprises, led a biotech company as CEO, became a 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: hedge fund partner in his twenties, trained as a scientist 19 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: at Harvard and a lawyer at Yale, and grew up 20 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: the child of immigrants in a small town in Ohio. 21 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: His new book, Woke Ink begins as a critique of 22 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: stakeholder capitalism and ends with an exploration of what it 23 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: means to be an American in twenty twenty one, A 24 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: journey that begins with cynicism and ends with hope. I'm 25 00:01:46,680 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome my guest, k Ramaswami. Thank you 26 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: for joining me today. I'm curious. You have such a 27 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: remarkable background. Can you tell us a little bit about 28 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: your own upbringing and education. It's truly impressive. Well, thank you, dude, 29 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: It's an honor to be on with you. I was 30 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 1: born and raised in Cincinnati, Ohio. My dad came over 31 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, my mom in the eighties. And 32 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: I asked my dad, why would you come to Cincinnati, 33 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: Ohio from halfway around the world. And we often hear 34 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: from him that his sister had moved to Fort Wayne, Indiana, 35 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: which raised my same question about his sister. And the 36 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: joke we tell is, why would you come to Indiana? 37 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: It's the only US state with the word India contained 38 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: in the name of the state. So anyway, that's the 39 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: joke we tell and I had a good upbringing there. 40 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: We were a middle class family. They didn't come here 41 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: with much money, but they did have an education, and 42 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: I think the fact that that got them ahead in 43 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: this country was imprinted into my own upbringing as well, 44 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: in terms of the value that education played in my 45 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: own life and my own ability to live the American dream. 46 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: To public schools through eighth grade, relatively poor public school. 47 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: Switched to a private high school for high school after 48 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: let's just say getting roughed up in eighth grade, and 49 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: my parents decided we needed to make a change, so 50 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: I went to a Catholic high school. I went to 51 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 1: Harvard for college. Thought I was going to be a scientist, 52 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: was one of the nerdy guys in the lab the 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: whole time. Instead ended up in the world of biotech 54 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: investing right before the two thousand and eight financial crisis 55 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: when I graduated, And I'll tell you that shaped my 56 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: views on capitalism in a lot of ways. I love capitalism, 57 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: but I also learned to be wary of it when 58 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: it gets intermingled with politics. And that's a lesson I 59 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: saw firsthand working at a hedge fund in the pre 60 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight and two thousand and eight era, 61 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: I picked up a law degree at Yale. Along the way, 62 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: I told my boss, as I had been so science 63 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: centric that I wanted to scratch an itch I had 64 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: in law and political philosophy. So I told him I 65 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: was leaving, and they said, actually, why don't you just 66 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: keep your job and go to law school at the 67 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: same time, go manage a portfolio for us. So that 68 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: was a win win. It got me some more autonomy 69 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: on the job. I went to Yale while keeping the 70 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: job three of my best years to twenty thirteen. My 71 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: wife there probably the most tangible thing that came out 72 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: of it. And then when I came back, I think 73 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: I was done being an investor. I started a biotech company, 74 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: happy to tell you more about that story. Built that 75 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: company for seven years a CEO, but I stepped down 76 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: as CEO this year to focus not on biological cancer 77 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: as I had in my role as a biotech CEO, 78 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: but on this new cultural cancer that I felt was 79 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: going to threaten the very dream that allowed me to 80 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: live the life that I had lived and my parents 81 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: to come here a generation before. And that's what I 82 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: ended up writing about in my book, Were You surprised 83 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: to me, you're actually growing a company in the very 84 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: parallel time that the woke system is growing and putting 85 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: its tendrils into so much of American life. Did you 86 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: have this sort of sense that you were following it 87 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: in parallel of you will you know my experience if 88 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: it was different, because one of the things about building 89 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: a company is that you better have your head neck 90 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: deep in the business and you're getting it off the ground, 91 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: and so in a certain sense, for six years from 92 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen when I got started till about twenty twenty, 93 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: I felt like I was in my own tunnel. And 94 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: then when I emerged from that tunnel, I felt like 95 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: I was like Rip van Winkle or something. And when 96 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: I woke up to see what was going on in 97 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: the business world around me, it was really different than 98 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: the business world I knew in two thousand and six 99 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: or two thousand and seven when I was first getting 100 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: out of college and transferring from being a biologist and 101 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: a scientist to becoming a hedge fund investor. And the 102 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: change that I noticed was that all of a sudden, 103 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: now the very people who would have engaged in lavish 104 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: capital excess back when I was working at Goldman Sachs 105 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: or at Hedge Funds. Back in Hedge Fund Internship, my 106 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: first one in two thousand and five, with some wild 107 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: stories of capitalist excess. Are now the same people who 108 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: are dawning new clothing, new slogans, new tributes to social responsibility. 109 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: And to me, there was something really curious about that. 110 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: There's something odd about it, and I thought something likely 111 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: very hypocritical about it too. And it turned out this 112 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: had become the new form of capitalist excess, where capitalist 113 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: leaders now didn't go to strip clubs or host lavish parties, 114 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: as many stories have reported for Wall Street excesses in 115 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: the pre two thousand and eight era, but now instead 116 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: did it by imposing socially just values on the rest 117 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 1: of America. And to me, that was the modern form 118 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: of capitalist excess, and yet nobody else could recognize what 119 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: it was actually doing, which was aggregating moral power in 120 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: the hands of a small group of American elites. And 121 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: so that started to bug me quite a bit. I 122 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: thought all I was going to do about it was 123 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: right a Wall Street journal OpEd in February of twenty twenty, 124 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: which is what I did. I had emerged from the 125 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: cocoon for a little bit. The business was on its 126 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: own two feet. I found myself with some spare mental 127 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: space for the first time in six years, and so 128 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: I wrote and sent in the OpEd, and that, I 129 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: would say set off a flurry in the business world. 130 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: That actually also caused an agent to approach me and said, 131 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: you need to approach this, blow this out into a book, 132 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: and that eventually led to the journey that led me 133 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: to where I am now a year and a half later. 134 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: How did you find the process of writing the book, Well, 135 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: it was an unusually year to do it, so I 136 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: found it incredibly enriching, and the books slated to come 137 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: out in August seventeen. I'm incredibly grateful that I did 138 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: it because it helped me discover something about myself, which 139 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: was what I actually thought about a complicated issue, and 140 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: reflecting on my own tenure as the CEO of a 141 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: company that I had built and some of the conflicts 142 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: that I faced in the tail end of that tenure. 143 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: And there's something that I learned in high school, which 144 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: is a high school English teacher once told me, you 145 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: don't really know what you think unless you can write 146 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: it down. And I think that that proved true over 147 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: the course of the last year, where I had a 148 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: first draft of the book that was ready in November, 149 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: I ended up tearing the whole thing up and rewriting 150 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: the whole thing between then in February to really get 151 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: to the bottom of what I believed. And I thought 152 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: that process of introspection was something that was an exercise 153 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: and self discovery unlike any other that I had engaged in. 154 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: It's my first book, and so I'm grateful for the 155 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: exercise no matter how the book does well. And it 156 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: seems to me that you took a very courageous position. 157 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: I mean, just the subtitle inside Corporate America's Social Justice Scam. 158 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: You're not going to make yourself radically more popular with 159 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: the Harvard Yale Alumni Association and their passionate desire to 160 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: be politically correct. I haven't managed to do that, That's right. 161 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: And you know, it's been difficult too, because a lot 162 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: of people who I consider close friends, even close extended family, 163 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: former colleagues, some people who I currently consider colleagues have 164 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: looked up to me. Actually a lot of them have 165 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: seen me as a source of inspiration in building a 166 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: company and hiring their friends and family and their loved 167 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: ones and themselves, and to see their disappointment in what 168 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: they see as a betrayal of the position and the 169 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: pedigree that got me to where I am, ranging from 170 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: being a first generation any immigrant with brown skin who 171 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: maybe then committed to having certain views all the way 172 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: to having built a biotech company and having been educated 173 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: in places like Harvard and Yale and done the right 174 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: thing by developing medicines. For people to betray that to now, 175 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: in their eyes, join the other side has been just 176 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: personally painful for me insofar as you feel like you're 177 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: disappointing people who look up to you. But at the 178 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: end of the day, my biggest issue with where we 179 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: are in our country right now nude is not even 180 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: where we are with the content of the highly racialized 181 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: woke movement, which I have tons of issues with. It's 182 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: the deeper issue that we can't even engage in open 183 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 1: dialogue with one another without fear of consequence and punishment. 184 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: I think right now, majority of Americans probably are afraid 185 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: to express their true beliefs in public because of the 186 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: current political environment. Some people might be afraid of losing 187 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: their jobs. Some people may be afraid of putting food 188 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: on the dinner table, and I had gotten to a 189 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: position in my own career where I don't have to 190 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: worry about putting food on the dinner table anymore. And 191 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: I think with that came the responsibility to speak in 192 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: an unabashed and unapologetic way about issues that I think 193 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: we all ought to be talking about, at least in 194 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: the open, before we decide how we're going to move 195 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: forward after bridging the divide around those issues. One of 196 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: the points you make, which is a very strong statement, 197 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: is you call the woke culture the new secular religion 198 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 1: in America. What do you mean by that? Yeah, well, look, 199 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: I think we live in a moment where patriotism is 200 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: on the decline, faith has nearly disappeared. I don't think 201 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: we have a good answer to the question of what 202 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: it means to be an American in the year twenty 203 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: twenty one. And I think that our lack of an 204 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: answer to that question is the black hole at the 205 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: center of our nation's soul. And when you have a 206 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: vacuum that runs that deep, bad things start to fill 207 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: the void. That is what makes wokeism and postmodern traditions 208 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: like wokeism the equivalent of our modern opioid for the masses. 209 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: That we have an entire generation of people who are 210 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: my age, millennials, younger gen z, who are hungry for 211 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: a sense of purpose, who are hung grief for a cause. Really, 212 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: they're hungry for identity. We are hungry for identity. I 213 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: should say, I'm a member of this generation, and I 214 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: think that's a good thing. But when we have lost 215 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: the sources of meaning and purpose identity from generations past, faith, patriotism, 216 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: hard work, we're instead filling that moral hunger with the 217 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: equivalent of fast food the tradition, rather than more substantial fair, 218 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: which is actually what we hunger for. So that's actually 219 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: my view on the solution to the woke agenda isn't 220 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: actually to cancel it in return, which I think some 221 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: conservatives maybe want to do, and I could understand and 222 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: be sympathetic to why, But I actually think the right 223 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 1: answer is going to have to involve rebuilding a shared 224 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: vision of moral and American identity that runs so deep 225 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: that it dilutes this new religion to irrelevance. And it 226 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: is a religion in every sense of the word, legally 227 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: included for reasons that I talk about in the book, 228 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: and that has immense legal consequence. But I think the 229 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: most important point is we need to fill that religious 230 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: faith based void, that void of patriotism, that void of belief, 231 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: with something far more meaningful that dilutes wokeism to irrelevance. 232 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: So BEAUTI perspective, I'm curious. A significant part of wokeism 233 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: is about race, and particularly about skin color. Do you 234 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: think it infuriates the woke even more to have somebody 235 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: who has brown skin from India saying things that are 236 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: deviant from the depth of their new secular religion. Do 237 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: you think in a sense you get a bigger level 238 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: of anger than say, I would get because they expect 239 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: me to be hopeless. I absolutely think that because I 240 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: experienced it right, I've been racially disparaged a lot in 241 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: the last six months as I've become more vocal on 242 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: my views. People call me a coconut brown on the 243 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: outside wide and the inside, I think is the implication 244 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: there's worse than that out there too. But I do 245 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: think that that actually highlights another way in which wokeism 246 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: is actually a religion, Because in many religions, the greatest 247 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: sin is not heresy, It is apostasy. And if you're 248 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: an apostate somebody who ought to know better but still 249 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: defect from the religion, that's actually the greatest sin and 250 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: deserving of the greatest punishment of all. And I feel 251 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: like I'm in some ways treated as an apostate twice 252 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: over once from somebody who was educated in the highest 253 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: corridors of elite America and has lived the life of 254 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: elite America. And there's no denying that I have, and 255 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: in fact, that's part of what allowed me to succeed 256 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: and get to where I am, and to be able 257 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: to see what I've been seeing and writing about. But 258 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: the second is also having been a first generation children 259 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: of Indian immigrants, somebody who is not white, but speaking 260 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: on behalf of I would say racial harmony in our 261 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: country and moving towards a colorblind vision that I think, 262 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: by the way Martin Luther King shared when he spoke 263 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: sixty years ago today, that's a form of not only heresy, 264 00:13:44,679 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: but apostasy. We did a survey recently and discovered that 265 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: if we asked people, do you agree with Reverend Martin 266 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: Luther King, Jr. When he said that he wanted people 267 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: to be concerned about the content of his children's character, 268 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: not the color of their skin. I was actually very 269 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: surprised the support for the content of your character was 270 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: ninety one to six. Now, you never believe that if 271 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: you went out and looked at the various woke publications 272 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: or the woke cable news people or whatever. But the 273 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: country still has a real desire to look beyond race 274 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: and to look at you as a person and give 275 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: you a shot as a person. And that was a 276 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: surprise to us that the numbers were that big. Well, 277 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: that's optimistic, and I'm an optimist too. I think that 278 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: part of what we're seeing with the woke movement is 279 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: a distorted representation of where the country is actually on 280 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: the facts. And what's distorting it is this new culture 281 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: of fear where today there is no greater damnation in 282 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: America than to be called a racist. And so when 283 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: making the choice between being tarred with the scarlet are 284 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: and pledging allegiance to this new religion, everyday Americans are 285 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: choosing to bend the knee, even though they're not actually 286 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: committing their hearts to the new religion. Even as they 287 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: do bend the knee to its temple. See, if you 288 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: say that I'm not racist today, according to the dogmas 289 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: of anti racism, that means you are racist. If you 290 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: capitalize the wan white, or you fail to capitalize the 291 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: bing black, you are also, as of nine months ago, 292 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: a racist. If you say that all lives matter somehow, 293 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: that means you believe that black lives don't matter. And 294 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I hear from some 295 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: of my friends on the left who are sheepishly going 296 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: along but I don't think are actually authentically committed in 297 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: their hearts is that, well, you're just sort of putting 298 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: words in the mouth of the other side. And critical 299 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: race theory is really just the conservatives stirring the pot 300 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: with a manufactured controversy. And so one of the things 301 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: I really like to do is stick to facts. So 302 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: don't take it from me. Take it from Abraham Kenny, 303 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: who's one of the high priests of the New Religion, 304 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: who says that the only remedy this is his word's, 305 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: not mine. The only remedy to pass discrimination is present discrimination. 306 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination. Or 307 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: Aana Pressley, a member of the Squad who openly says 308 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: that we don't need any more black faces that don't 309 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: want to be black voices. We don't need any more 310 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: brown faces that don't want to be brown voices. As 311 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: he said, I probably don't fit her description of what 312 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: counts as a brown voice. How does it feel to 313 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: know that you're actually not brown anymore? Yeah, it's very revealing, 314 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: you know. It's interesting to know that brown has gone 315 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: from being something that you experience with your eyesight to 316 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: something that instead you experience with your ears to know 317 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: whether someone's voice was a brown voice or not. And 318 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: that's exactly the jiu jitsu style move of the woke movement, 319 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: where they have selectively, in certain contexts, transformed race from 320 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: being about something as superficial as a skin, deep characteristic 321 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: to being about your voice. And here's the rub new 322 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: is when race is then about your voice, that means 323 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 1: that disagreeing with that voice automatically makes you a racist. 324 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: And then the next step is, if you're a racist, 325 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: you're a pariah in modern American society. That's what creates 326 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: this new culture of fear that supplants our old culture 327 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: of free speech in our country. And that's exactly what 328 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: motivated me to speak out. Senator Tim Scott does this 329 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: whole riff about the fact that he ceased to be black, 330 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: and Clarence Thomas had the same experience. He couldn't be 331 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: the African American on the Supreme Court because he was 332 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: a conservative and he'd gone to a Catholic school, So 333 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: he suddenly found himself being redefined by his opponents, which 334 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: was probably a great surprise to his family. I think 335 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: it was you know, one of my law school classmates, 336 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: you know who I quote in the book. I talk 337 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: about in the book at some length. He's a guy 338 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: that the Nama Jamail Jovanni. He's half black, half Indian. 339 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: He's developing a growing following in Canada as a political 340 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: commentator there, but he was criticized for rick pressing views 341 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: that betrayed his people. And I really detest this notion 342 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: that our people ought to be defined on the basis 343 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: of something as superficial as skin color. But I think 344 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: he said at the time, nobody gets to tell me 345 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: what kind of black man I get to be. And 346 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: I thought he said it pretty well, which is why 347 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: I talk about him a little bit more in the book, 348 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: having been a former classmate of mind too. But I 349 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: think it's a struggle that a lot of us face. 350 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: To me, that's not even the most important part of it. Right, 351 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: If I'm going to be a prominent CEO, give up 352 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: my seat, go out and write about controversial issues, guess 353 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: what people are going to come after you that comes 354 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: with the territory. I'm not really here to whine about it, 355 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: but it is I think less about me that the 356 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: fact that I take that personally, and more about a 357 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: sad indictment about where we are as a culture, where 358 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: we have come full circle backwards even from where we 359 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: were as of the Civil rights movement, to say that 360 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: the color of your skin ought to dictate something about 361 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: your perspectives. And I cannot think about something more racist 362 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: in modern America in the classical, first order sense of 363 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 1: racism than to say that somebody these views are governed 364 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: by the color of their skin. Yet that's what the 365 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: woke movement posits. I'm really struck with the degree to 366 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: which we're seeing the rise of fascism in the original 367 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: meaning of the term, which is an alliance between big 368 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: business and big government. And you have all these corporations 369 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: now that curry favor with the government, and then the 370 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: government gives them advantages, and all of it's based on politics, 371 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: which is inherently corrupting in terms of a free market 372 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: system where it ought to be based on customer satisfaction 373 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: and price and efficiency and capabilities. It's really, I think 374 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: a very sobering undermining of the entire system that made 375 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: us remarkable. Well, I think you're right about that. New 376 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: This is actually one of the places where in the 377 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: book I'm actually quite critical of the Conservative movement and 378 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: particularly the Republican Party over the last number of decades, 379 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: where they are effectively duped into submission, reciting some slogan 380 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: that they memorized in nineteen eighty that the free market 381 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: can do no wrong without recognizing that the free market 382 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: that they idealize does not exist today when big business 383 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: works in concert with big government, where each one is 384 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: more powerful than either one alone because each can do 385 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: what the other cannot, and that new hybrid is far 386 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: more powerful than what Ronald Reagan fought in nineteen eighty, 387 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: which was just big government. This is the new woke 388 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: industrial complex. It is a new leviathan that is far 389 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: more powerful than what Thomas hobbs envision four hundred years ago. 390 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: It is far more powerful than what our founding fathers 391 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: envisioned a couple of centuries and a half ago. And 392 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: I think that we're going to need new solutions for 393 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: the new era. As my hero Abraham Lincoln famously said, 394 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: the dogmas of a quiet past are inadequate to the 395 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: stormy present. He said that in eighteen sixty. I think 396 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: that the dogmas of nineteen eighty are inadequate to meet 397 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: the needs of the unique challenges of twenty twenty one. 398 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: And as hypocritical as the left is, and I think 399 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: the source of a lot of the fascism that you describe, 400 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: I think the conservative movement has fallen short of meeting 401 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: the moment by simply either turning the other way and 402 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 1: pretending the problem doesn't exist in reciting some slogan from 403 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, or I think some people in the newly 404 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: nascent wing of the conservative movement that would rather burn 405 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: the whole thing down. And I think the thing that 406 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: we need to do is sterilize the castle of capitalism 407 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: without burning the whole thing down. We've guarded it through 408 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: the front door without realizing that it got invaded through 409 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: the back door by the woke movement, the Communist Party 410 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: of China, and a lot of other forces we didn't 411 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: anticipate forty years ago, but we're gonna have to do 412 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: something about that. And looking the other way and memorizing 413 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: Milton Friedman quotes from forty years ago isn't really a solution, 414 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: but neither is just saying we want to burn the 415 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: whole thing down and offer solutions that are indistinguishable from 416 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: what you might hear from Bernie Sanders. We have to 417 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: do the hard work of restoring both capitalism and democracy, 418 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry to say we live in a moment 419 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: where we have lost both when they have become commingled. 420 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: So from your perspective, what would you do about Facebook 421 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: and Twitter and Google and a really really big internet. 422 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: So the first step is tracing the government source of 423 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: their power in the first place. And I know a 424 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: lot of people bandy about the term Section two thirty, 425 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: but I think it's important to talk with precision what 426 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: we ought to do, in my opinion, with Section two thirty, 427 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: which is not to repeal it, but to amend it. Now. 428 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: To be clear, I think this was a bad law 429 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: when it was passed in nineteen ninety six. It was 430 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: passed as the only federal law that I am aware 431 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: of which explicitly says that companies are immunized from liability 432 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: for removing And this is the statute itself says this 433 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: speech that is otherwise constitutionally protected. Speaking as an American, 434 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: as a constitutionalist, that offends every one of my deepest sensibilities, 435 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: because it is Congress explicitly deputizing a private party to 436 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: do what Congress cannot directly do under the Constitution. The 437 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: statute literally says they can do things that would immunize 438 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: them from liability that are otherwise constitutionally protected in the 439 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: form of speech that they would remove. Well, I think 440 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: that what we need to do today. You know, I 441 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: think it was a bad law when it was passed. 442 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: I think it was an unconstitutional law when it was passed. 443 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: But today, if we were just a repeal section to thirty, 444 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: even as President Trump, I think you know once suggested 445 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: in passing, I think that would have the perverse effect 446 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: of actually strengthening the very titans who are enabled to 447 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: be created by Section two thirty in the first place, 448 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,959 Speaker 1: because they can withstand liability better than upstart competitors. So 449 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: what I think we need instead is a reform of 450 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: Section two thirty that says, Okay, you can't have it 451 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: both ways. Either you get this special form of federal 452 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: immunity and you abide by the same strictors as the 453 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: federal government, bound by the Constitution of the United States, 454 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: bounded by the First Amendment, or you actually operate as 455 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: a private company and we have an even playing field 456 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: that doesn't exempt you just because you're a company that 457 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: happens to have a website. But you can't have it 458 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: both ways. And I think a lot of the new 459 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: Conservative solutions new center on that really simple principle with 460 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: respect to government laws that are applied unevenly, and we 461 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: got to say you can't have it both ways. And 462 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: I can talk about more of them, but that's what 463 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: I would say on the technology front. Now, you also 464 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: mentioned in passing the growing role of the Chinese Communist Party, 465 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: and I was very struck the other day. You know, 466 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: the Russians, back in the heyday of the Cold War 467 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: used to create what we're called honey traps, which is 468 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: either a boy or girl, depending on your preference, who 469 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: would in effect entice you get you into a hotel 470 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: room that had cameras and then you would get blackmailed. 471 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: In a sense, there's a money honey trap built by 472 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party. And you see the president of 473 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: Nike explaining that Nike's really a Chinese company and how 474 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: proud they are to be part of the Chinese system. 475 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: No recognition of genocide in Western China, no recognition of 476 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: the destruction of the Tibetan Buddhists, no recognition of the 477 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: oppression of Hong Kong. What's your take on the whole 478 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: relationship between corporate America and the Chinese Communist Party. Yeah, so, look, 479 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: I think that the Chinese Communist Party has used stakehold capitalism, 480 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: this new dogma of how companies pursue social justice, to 481 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: turn American democracy on its head, because it's really this 482 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: simple note. Thirty years ago, we began with the flawed 483 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: premise of democratic capitalism, which said that by spreading capitalism 484 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: to China, by investing in China, we could use our 485 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: money to get them to be more like us. And 486 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: instead they have done the reverse. They have used their 487 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: money to get us to be more like them. We 488 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: sent big Max and Happy Meals and loaded them up 489 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: and think that would spread democracy. Instead, they have taken 490 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: Disney movies and Nike sneakers sent them back as trojan 491 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: horses that are undermining us from within. And here's how 492 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: the trojan horse plays its game is that those companies 493 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: relentlessly criticize injustice microaggressions in the United States, like systemic 494 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: racism and transphobia, but they do not say a peep 495 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: as they continue to expand in the Chinese market, including 496 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: if you're Disney filming Mulan in the Shenjang province of China, 497 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: where we have the greatest human rights atrocities committed by 498 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: major nation, in my opinion, since the Reich in nineteen 499 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: thirties Germany, and yet they don't say a people about it. 500 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: In fact, they compliment China at the end of the 501 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: movie Mulan. They thank them in the credits of the 502 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: movie for allowing the privilege of filming there. They think 503 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: the very government agencies that are committing large scale human 504 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: rights atrocities from forced sterilization to possibly genocide. And that 505 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: is how this two faced behavior works, where now the 506 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: people who have always been known for criticizing injustice aren't 507 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: criticizing China. They're praising China, which creates a false moral 508 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: equivalence on the global stage. And so if you'll listen, 509 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: really carefully listen. Every time Shi Jinping is pressed by 510 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: let's say, the European Union last year when they asked 511 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: him what happens with the leakers in the Shanjang province, 512 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: the first thing he says is that Black Lives Matter 513 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: shows the United States is no better. Their diplomat comes 514 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: to Alaska earlier this year and says that China hopes 515 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: the United States does better on human rights and stops 516 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: slaughtering black Americans. This would be laughable if it weren't 517 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: for the fact that these new international arbiters of justice 518 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: justices like Disney and Nike in the NBA, are engaging 519 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: in the sort of a two faced behavior that effectively 520 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: allows them to make the most money because it's a 521 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: condition of entry to the Chinese market, but effectively plays 522 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: America on the global stage by undermining our greatest geopolitical 523 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: asset of all that is not our nuclear arsenal, that 524 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: is our moral standing on the global stage. China is 525 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: playing chess to undermine that over the long run, and 526 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to say they have co opted capitalism like 527 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: a virus. That is the real Chinese virus that I 528 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: think we need to fight. It is one that equates 529 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: this Chinese nihilism with American idealism on the global stage, 530 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: and when that happens, nihilism wins every time. I'm gonna 531 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: take you off to a totally different topic for a second. 532 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: Because of your vast experience with pharmaceuticals and with the 533 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: way that industry is regulated, I was very struck this 534 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: week that the number of people are waiting to get 535 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: their vaccinations for the Food and Drug Administration to officially 536 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: approve them. And doctor Fauci was on making the point 537 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: to look, millions and millions of people have taken these vaccines. 538 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: We know they're safe. And it suddenly hit me, as 539 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: a guy who's not a medical expert, but just as 540 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: an observer. If you've had literally well over one hundred 541 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: million people in the US and another several hundred million 542 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: people around the world take these vaccines, what is there 543 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: about the FDA bureaucracy that they couldn't just say it's 544 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: obviously safe because you have a statistical database that's enormous. 545 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: It's a funny point you make, and it's simple as 546 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: it is. It's brilliant, and it shouldn't be brilliant because 547 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: it should be obvious. But the FDA and the source 548 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: of mistrust in public institutions in science, I think the 549 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: link between their behavior and public mistrust is probably one 550 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: of the great unexplored issues of our time. I think 551 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: that our scientific class in this country has given the 552 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: public no reason to trust them back. They mistrusted the 553 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: public with the facts about COVID nineteen in the pandemic 554 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: since day one. They thought the public couldn't handle nuance 555 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: and the facts. And in any relationship where one party 556 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: doesn't trust the other, the other party doesn't trust you back. 557 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: And that's what's happening now with the public regarding the government, 558 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: is the government didn't trust the public. Now the public 559 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: isn't trusting the government back. And there's a little bit 560 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: off topic from what you raised, but I think that 561 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: there's no example more offensive than the scientific institutional establishment's 562 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: views towards the origin of this virus. I will tell 563 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: you last year there were a lot of people who 564 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: behind closed doors mused and worried about the possibility that 565 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: this actually did originate in a lab, but felt they 566 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: could not express that in public because it would undermine 567 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: public trust in science. In fact, you then have social 568 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: media companies that went on to censor somebody even being 569 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: able to discuss the possibility that this virus came from 570 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: a lab, and now here we are a good amount 571 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: of time later where that is the predominant theory for 572 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: how this virus originated. I personally think it is almost 573 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: certainly a virus that originated in the lab based on 574 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,479 Speaker 1: what we know from the mutational characteristics of the virus. 575 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: And to me, that's how you undermine public trust in science, 576 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: not by coddling the public into trusting what you have 577 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: to say, but to be transparent, to say things that 578 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: may involve nuanced, to be open about what we know 579 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: and what we don't know. And I think the NIH 580 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: plays a big role in perpetuating this. I think the 581 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: FDA plays a big role in perpetuating this. I think 582 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: doctor Fauci has played a big role in perpetuating this, 583 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: And I think the Wilke industrial complex has played a 584 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: big role in perpetuating this, with the role of social 585 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: media companies working in concert to censor open discussion and 586 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: skeptical dialogue, when in fact that's what the true scientific 587 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: method depends upon. In the first place. Two things. One, 588 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: I have relatives who will not pay attention to any 589 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: government numbers and just say flatly that they don't believe 590 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: any of them. They don't know how to sort it out, 591 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: so they just ignore them. So the government would should 592 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: be offering guidance in their world doesn't exist. I mean, 593 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: they have zeroed it out and said these people are 594 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: either incompetent or corrupt, and we're not paying attention. I 595 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,959 Speaker 1: used to in Congress represent the Center for Disease Control 596 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: and the collapse of the CDC as a trusted institution 597 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: is astonishing. Oh, I wouldn't have thought it possible, and 598 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: yet here we are. I mean, I think we have 599 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: a crisis of institutional mistrust in our country. And it's 600 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: not the fault of the American people who don't trust 601 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: the institutions. It's the fault of our institutions who have 602 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: given them repeatedly no reason to trust them in return. 603 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: And that's a part of what I'm calling out in 604 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: the book is even the stuff with corporate wokeism. I 605 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: began writing the book with the premise and the concern 606 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: that this was going to racialize our culture was going 607 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: to divide and pit Americans against one another when Coca 608 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: Cola teaches its employees on how to be less white, 609 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: or when United Airlines implements a racial quota system for 610 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: the pilots who are in the cock pit, even if 611 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: that means getting rid of tests for pilot competence. One 612 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: of the things I worried about is that that would 613 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: pit employees against one another based on their race. And 614 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: what I discovered, having spent a year and a half 615 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: studying this with an open mind and not wanting to 616 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: come to pre specified conclusions, is that I think that's 617 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: happening a little bit, but not as much as I thought. 618 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: On a happy note, because a lot of people just 619 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: tune out of these diversity sessions. Right If somebody's going 620 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: through some of this anti racism training in their corporation, 621 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: what a majority of people are actually thinking is, Okay, 622 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: this is my time to tune out, because they're just 623 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: blabbering about what they have to say, but nobody really 624 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: means it. The good side is that means that Coca 625 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: Cola may not play a role in actually culturally racializing 626 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: tribalizing us as much as we might have worried. That's 627 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: the good news. The bad news is it is throwing 628 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: fuel on the crisis of institutional mistrust, because again, just 629 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: teaches everyday Americans, you really just don't need to listen 630 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: when either someone in the private sector or in the 631 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: public sector who's running a major institution is speaking, because 632 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: they don't even mean what they are saying. They are 633 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: just going through the motion of oral diarrhea, words coming 634 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: out of their mouth that nobody ultimately can trust or 635 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: listen to. And to me, that was one of the 636 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: unexpected discoveries over the course of writing this book is 637 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: I began thinking the problem was really a racialization of 638 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: our politics and our citizenry. And to be clear, especially 639 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: in our schools, I do think that's a problem, But 640 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: in the workplace that's actually not the biggest problem. The 641 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: biggest problem is just fueling this crisis of institutional mistrust 642 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: because everyone knows not to believe a thing that someone 643 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: else is saying, because even the person who's saying it 644 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: doesn't probably believe it either. I think you're exactly right, 645 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: and I think what you're seeing. Ironically, it's very hard 646 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: even with the news media as biased as it is, 647 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: and even with the education system as biased as it is, 648 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: it's really hard in a relatively free society to propagandize 649 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: people in believing things that they objectively in their own 650 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: lives don't believe. That's right. The only way you get 651 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: there is ultimately through open debate and dialogue and your 652 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: own skepticism. And I'll tell you this, and I talk 653 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 1: about this a lot in the book, in terms of 654 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: my personal experiences of having been educated at places like 655 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, like Harvard, Yale, etc. I got a 656 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: better education because my views were challenged in the open, 657 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: because the people who I was surrounded by disagreed with me. 658 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: That was a good thing. Where ten percent of the time, 659 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: you know what, I changed my mind. Your idea isn't 660 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: your kid. If you get a better one comes along, 661 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: you can just take it and make it your own. 662 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: That's great. But ninety percent of the time, what did 663 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: happen is I had the same conviction that I went 664 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: in with, but I came out with an even firmer 665 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: basis for believing what I did because I understood why 666 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: after it was challenged. And I think instead getting somebody 667 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: to repeat a mantra and get certain words to come 668 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: out of their mouth a certain number of times doesn't 669 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: actually change what they think. You only get to the 670 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: heart of someone's beliefs. They end up on the other 671 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: side of having open dialogue and debate and still believe 672 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 1: what they do. And I think that's what we've missed 673 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: is institutional leaders think that they can ultimately get people 674 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: to believe in science by shouting from the hilltops trust 675 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: the science, when in fact, the very thing that they're 676 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: shouting from the hilltops betrays the scientific method itself that 677 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: relies on open debate and skepticism. I'm curious about something. 678 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:21,959 Speaker 1: I hope you don't mind if I ask a sort 679 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: of personal question. But listening to you, listening to your passion, 680 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: obviously I agree very much with most of what you've said. 681 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I have to ask you 682 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: you are doing pretty well. I mean, you graduate of 683 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: Harvard and Yale ahead of a billion dollar company, really 684 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: good at making money. Was there something that your parents 685 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: taught you or where did this need to be a 686 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: citizen and to sort of step aside from making your second, third, 687 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: and fourth a billion to actually try to communicate with 688 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: and understand the country. I mean it's a remarkable thing. 689 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: You've done a great public service, but many choices with 690 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: your life, and I'm curious, what do you think was 691 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: the background that drove you into the middle of the 692 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: public arena. Yeah, well, look, that'd probably require a level 693 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: of introspection that I may not have even gotten to 694 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: quite yet. Lots happened in the last year and a half. 695 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: I became a father during that year, right at the 696 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: time that I decided to embark on this new journey, 697 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 1: So that probably had something to do with it. Well, congratulations, 698 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: thank you, I appreciate this. A year and a half now, 699 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: that had to have something to do with it. But 700 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: from a personal perspective, I can't tell you that I've 701 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: looked deep into my soul, deep enough to know exactly 702 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: how I connected those dots. But it feels to me 703 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: like the thing I just need to be doing now, 704 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: in the sense that, given my skill set, my training, 705 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: my education, all that's been invested in me, I feel 706 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 1: like there is not a more important problem I could 707 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: be working on right now than addressing this cultural cancer. 708 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: And my bar for saying that is pretty high, having 709 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: come from spent the last decade and a half in 710 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,800 Speaker 1: the last seven years, in particular focusing on biological disease. 711 00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: I would have told you when I embarked on that 712 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: mission that there was nothing else more important that I 713 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: could be doing. But I don't know that I'm going 714 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: to succeed at this one or not. But I think 715 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: working on this felt to me like the thing that 716 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: I needed to be doing, because as a citizen, there 717 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: wasn't a time in my life where I felt like 718 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: there was an opportunity for Americans like me to live 719 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: out their civic duty as simply as by speaking up 720 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: and expressing beliefs that others were too afraid to express, 721 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 1: to spawn a dialogue that we need to have as 722 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: a country. And on a more superficial level, though I 723 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: could probably tell you that I took a stand up 724 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: comedy class after I graduated from law school and I 725 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: returned to my job as full time as an investor, 726 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: and I tried my hand at being a comedian in 727 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: New York City before I started my company. The first 728 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: lesson that he taught me, and this is a kind 729 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,399 Speaker 1: of a famed guy who teaches this class, is that 730 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: every time something annoys you, you got to write it 731 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: down and in the heart of what annoys you is 732 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: a really good joke, You just have to find it. Well. 733 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 1: It turns out I was a mediocre stand up comedian 734 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: at best, but that simple insight a led me to 735 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: leave my job as an investor and start a because 736 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: one of the things that annoyed the hell out of 737 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: me was the inefficiency of big Pharma, which was in 738 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: part built in the shadow of the FDA. It changed 739 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 1: my life because the first thing it did is it 740 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: caused me to leave my day job and start a 741 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 1: company that ended up really defining my success in my career. 742 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: But I guess I followed that same principle six years 743 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: later into having built the company and coming up for 744 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: air for the first time in twenty twenty. Another thing 745 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: that annoyed the hell out of me was the inauthenticity 746 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,240 Speaker 1: with which all of America's institutional elites and business leaders 747 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: ultimately were pledging fealty to this new religion at the 748 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: same time in a way that smacked of inauthenticity. That 749 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: I followed the guy's advice. I wrote it down in 750 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: that case in the form of an OpEd and that 751 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: led me on this new career trajectory that unfolded ever 752 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: since then. So at a superficial level, it's definitely the 753 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: stand up comedy class, but at a deeper level, I'm 754 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: not sure I'm connected to that's yet. That's a great answer, 755 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: and now one I could ever have dreamed up. Because 756 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for taking the time to 757 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,720 Speaker 1: join us. I think we need more voices like yours 758 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: speaking out for patriotic Americans who loved this country and 759 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: thinks what the left is doing to pressure us all 760 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: into accepting woke culture is not the best idea in 761 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: keeping our country unified. Your new book, Woke Inc. Inside 762 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: Corporate America's Social Justice Scam is available for pre order 763 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: out It'll be out this Tuesday. We're gonna have a 764 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: link to order your book on our show page at 765 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: Newtsworld dot com. So thank you very much, Vivic. I 766 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: thought this was really a great conversation. Thank you, dude. 767 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: It was a pleasure to be on and nice to 768 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: meet you after having watched you for years. And thanks 769 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: for the interest in the book too. I appreciate it. 770 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest vivek Ramaswamy. You can get 771 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 1: a link to Woke Inc. Inside Corporate America's Social Justice 772 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: Scam on our show page at Newtsworld dot com. Newsworld 773 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: is produced by Gingwich three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 774 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: producer is Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, and 775 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 776 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 777 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: at Gingwich three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I 778 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us 779 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 780 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of 781 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: Newtsworld can sign up from my three free weekly columns 782 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: at Gingwich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 783 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld.