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Speaker 1: Okay, So it's the holiday season, and that means we're

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Speaker 1: all spending more time in stores than we'd probably like

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Speaker 1: to be spending, and inevitably that means coming face to

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Speaker 1: face with self checkout. Now, I hate self checkout, but

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Speaker 1: producer Mike kind of likes it. So today we're visiting

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Speaker 1: a conversation that we had about our very different feelings

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Speaker 1: on scanning our own groceries and what self checkout says

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Speaker 1: about convenience control and who's really doing the work. There

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Speaker 1: are no girls on the Internet. As a production of

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridge Todd, and this is

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Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. Okay. So, Mike,

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Speaker 1: as you know, in our last news roundups, you and

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Speaker 1: I got a little bit heated about our respective thoughts

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Speaker 1: on so self checkout kiosks in retail stores. I was surprised.

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Speaker 1: I thought, certainly everybody hates these things as much as

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Speaker 1: I do. I was surprised to find that was not

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Speaker 1: the case. You had a different position. So my position

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Speaker 1: was that those self checkout kiosks in Target, Walmart, grocery stores, whatever,

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Speaker 1: they generally need to involve a human to work properly

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Speaker 1: I don't think they're that much more efficient or that

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Speaker 1: much more fast. And I also didn't think the old

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Speaker 1: system of just human cashiers was that bad, although I

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Speaker 1: have come to sort of update that position since hearing

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Speaker 1: the feedback that listeners have. So that is my position.

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Speaker 1: When I sat down to do that episode, I was

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Speaker 1: surprised to find that you have a completely different position.

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Speaker 1: Would you like to articulate it?

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Speaker 2: Sure, it's not completely different because your first point that

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Speaker 2: the machines require a human to operate them, we agree

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Speaker 2: on that. I think everyone agrees that a human still

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Speaker 2: needs to be involved even if it's a self checkout.

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Speaker 3: However, we disagree.

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Speaker 2: That I think that those self checkout machines or some

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Speaker 2: sort of self checkout system have a place in polite society,

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Speaker 2: and that they are not inherently bad. They are not destroying,

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Speaker 2: you know, the fabric of what makes us who we are.

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Speaker 2: They are just a useful tool that can help us

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Speaker 2: check out with our items.

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Speaker 1: So that is something that I want to get into

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Speaker 1: today because that episode was just a you know, one

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Speaker 1: story of a larger news round up with other stories,

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Speaker 1: and so I wanted to revisit the issue and highlight

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Speaker 1: a few of the angles that we didn't have time

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Speaker 1: to get into, and also hear from some of you

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Speaker 1: listeners on your thoughts on self checkouts versus human checkouts.

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Speaker 1: The thing that you just said about whether or not

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Speaker 1: self checkout is sort of tearing at the fabric of

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Speaker 1: who we are as people. For whatever reason, I realized,

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Speaker 1: after doing some deep thought that I carry that as

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Speaker 1: like a worldview, and it's a worldview that I carried

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Speaker 1: completely unchallenged until doing this episode. Do you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? I just automatically assumed, well, certainly, this is

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Speaker 1: a sign of society and decay, And doing this episode

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Speaker 1: was the first time that I really had to step

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Speaker 1: back and challenge why that was an automatic assumption on

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Speaker 1: my part.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.

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Speaker 2: I I also brought a lot of unchallenged assumptions to

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Speaker 2: this conversation. And I really appreciate the listeners who wrote

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Speaker 2: in because some of them had some really like thoughtful

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Speaker 2: and insightful things to say that I hadn't thought about it.

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Speaker 3: I think you hadn't thought about.

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Speaker 2: And one of the other interesting things about this story is,

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Speaker 2: like you said, it was just one story of a

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Speaker 2: news roundup, like kind of a throwaway, but like it

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Speaker 2: turned out that you and I both had pretty strong

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Speaker 2: opinions about it, and listeners did as well.

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Speaker 3: And I think this might be the.

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Speaker 2: Segment that has received like the most listener feedback of

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Speaker 2: anything that we've ever done on this show, so that

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Speaker 2: it's launching it in twenty twenty, which is surprising because

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Speaker 2: it's such a I don't know, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: say a non issue, but like you know, at the

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Speaker 2: presidential debate stage, they're not talking about self checkout machines.

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Speaker 1: You know they should be.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they should, maybe they'd win some votes, but maybe

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Speaker 2: it's a dangerous issue.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: But it's not like life or death, right, There's something

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Speaker 2: sort of mundane about it, But for some reason, we

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Speaker 2: all have a lot to say about it. And I

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Speaker 2: guess I've been thinking about why that is, you know,

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Speaker 2: is it the universe and universality of it, Like every

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Speaker 2: person can relate to everybody buys groceries. The question of

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Speaker 2: which line do I get in is just one of

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Speaker 2: a thousand tiny decisions that we have to make every

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Speaker 2: day that is like sort of exhausting and like sort

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Speaker 2: of low stakes, but also like choosing wrong could mean

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Speaker 2: the difference of like ten minutes of standing in line,

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Speaker 2: which is like the worst thing that could possibly happen

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Speaker 2: to a person when they're standing in line.

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Speaker 3: So there's a lot here.

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Speaker 1: I felt so strongly about this issue that I was

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Speaker 1: willing to pull on my boots and go out into

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Speaker 1: the snow at six pm just to prove you wrong

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Speaker 1: about my self checkout feelings. And yeah, I completely agree

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Speaker 1: with you this. We've never gotten this level of passioned

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Speaker 1: feedback from folks of all the episodes that we've done.

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Speaker 1: So let's get into some of these issues that we

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Speaker 1: didn't have time for in that episod. So one big

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Speaker 1: issue that I definitely want to start with is the

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Speaker 1: fact that I didn't know this self checkout aisles are

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Speaker 1: not generally very accessible. I read a story about a

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Speaker 1: woman who was visually impaired and she was trying to

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Speaker 1: use the self checkout, couldn't see the screen well enough

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Speaker 1: to check out, asked for help from the clerk, and

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Speaker 1: the clerk ended up just moving her to the human

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Speaker 1: checkout line instead, And so it set up the system

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Speaker 1: where shoppers with disabilities basically could not use the system

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Speaker 1: at all, which became a lawsuit the National Federation of

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Speaker 1: the Blind sued Walmart, arguing that the company had violated

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Speaker 1: the Americans with Disabilities Act by excluding blind people from

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Speaker 1: using the service in the way that it was intended

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Speaker 1: independently and privately. So a federal judge in Maryland did

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Speaker 1: end up ruling in Walmart's favor. Walmart maintained that its

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Speaker 1: self checkout system is accessible because staff are trained to help,

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Speaker 1: but if disabled customers have to ask per assistance, not

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Speaker 1: only will the transaction likely take longer, they also lose

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Speaker 1: the option to keep their purchases private. Privacy is a

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Speaker 1: reason why someone might use all checkout over a human checkout.

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Speaker 1: So this benefit of self checkout being able to like

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Speaker 1: keep whatever you're buying private, is just not being offered

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Speaker 1: to all shoppers equally. This I found so interesting. So

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Speaker 1: the Food Institute spoke to Nicki Shaw, who is the

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Speaker 1: US operations manager at Storm Interface, a company that creates

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Speaker 1: assistive technology products at Taco Bell and McDonald's, and Nicky said,

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Speaker 1: having the option to check out independently is unfortunately not

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Speaker 1: available to all customers because of inaccessible point of sale,

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Speaker 1: which is like the machines that do the checking out

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Speaker 1: by denying some customers this option. What message is this

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Speaker 1: retailer sending to those customers. I think that's such a

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Speaker 1: good point, Like, it just sounds like accessibility issues can

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Speaker 1: be a big thing with self checkout if not everybody

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Speaker 1: can use them equally, which it sounds like, is what's

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Speaker 1: going on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is a good point.

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Speaker 2: We're thinking about it, and you know, I have to

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Speaker 2: wonder if the companies who make these devices and systems

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Speaker 2: were being more mindful of accessibility, would that lead to

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Speaker 2: devices that work better for everyone?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: That's often something that is seen in I know, at

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Speaker 2: least like software design, that when you really focus on

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Speaker 2: making things accessible for a particular population that has specific needs,

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Speaker 2: the benefits are much broader than those people, and you

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Speaker 2: end up with a nicer, better functioning system for everyone. Absolutely,

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Speaker 2: and also people with disabilities should be able to use them.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to think about what that might look like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I really agree with Nicki Shaw that our

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Speaker 1: retailers saying that only certain shoppers get the benefit of

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Speaker 1: privacy at self checkout, And I think that's a fair

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Speaker 1: question to ask, Like they probably wouldn't say that because

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Speaker 1: that would have to they would be admitting that they're

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Speaker 1: violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. But it's a fair

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Speaker 1: question to ask, like some shoppers get the ability to

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Speaker 1: use self checkout to privately check out and others just don't.

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Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying. So we talked in that

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Speaker 1: episode about how self checkout might increase theft. However, we

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Speaker 1: really didn't get into kind of my biggest concern around theft.

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Speaker 1: Like retailer theft is not an issue that I feel

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Speaker 1: deeply strong about. It doesn't like move me. However, when

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Speaker 1: I was talking about theft, I don't think we got

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Speaker 1: into it. One of the things I wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: about is the potential risk to shoppers being accused of

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Speaker 1: theft from using self checkout, even if they didn't actually

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Speaker 1: steal anything or just like misscanned or forgot to scan

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Speaker 1: something legitimately by mistake. Right. So the reason why I

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Speaker 1: want to bring this up, I'll say this, take this

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Speaker 1: with a massive grain of salt, because I did see

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Speaker 1: it on TikTok, and like I wasn't able to, you know,

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Speaker 1: confirm everything this TikToker said. However, I did see this

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Speaker 1: TikTok from Carrie Jerrigan, who is a criminal defense attorney

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Speaker 1: and a TikTok personality who warned that she doesn't think

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Speaker 1: that anybody should use self checkout because it is very

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Speaker 1: easy to be accused of retail theft, even if you

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Speaker 1: just made a mistake or didn't steal anything at all. Basically,

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Speaker 1: she says that because people who are intentionally stealing from

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Speaker 1: self checkout are really good at it, like they've really

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Speaker 1: sharp like honed their tactics, and I guess it's difficult

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Speaker 1: to catch at this point. Because of that, retailers have

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Speaker 1: no sympathy for anybody who makes just like a common

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Speaker 1: mistake with their self checkout. Retailers are essentially focusing on

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Speaker 1: people who maybe forgot to scan that big thing of

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Speaker 1: coke that you put the under the shopping cart or whatever,

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Speaker 1: or people who legitimately didn't steal anything, and then blaming

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Speaker 1: those people for inventory loss. So this attorney says that

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Speaker 1: retailers will later check their inventory and if they come

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Speaker 1: up short, they will go after people who made a

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Speaker 1: legit transaction of that I am, she says, so they

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Speaker 1: will begin watching hours and hours of video to see

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Speaker 1: the last person who checked out with the Mario Lego set.

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Speaker 1: Because they're two Mario Lego sets short and for some

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Speaker 1: reason they pinpoint that they think you did it. And

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Speaker 1: because of who these big box stores are, they usually

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Speaker 1: have to present very little evidence to get an affidavit

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Speaker 1: for warrant signed. The charges that could land you up

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Speaker 1: to a year in jail get filed, and then you

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Speaker 1: are fighting for your life trying to determine what day

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Speaker 1: you were at Walmart and what all you bought. I

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Speaker 1: know that, like I immediately crumple my receipt up and

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Speaker 1: put it in my pocket of my winter code, and

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Speaker 1: then like hang it up in storage forever. So if

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Speaker 1: somebody ever was like, can you provide a receipt for

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Speaker 1: what you bought at Walmart two months ago, the answer

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Speaker 1: would be absolutely not. I would not be able to

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Speaker 1: provide any proof of that transaction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely not. I would think they were joking if

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Speaker 2: they asked me, right.

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Speaker 1: And so that TikTok was probably the first time that

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Speaker 1: I ever started thinking deeply about self checkout and sort

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Speaker 1: of like what it means. I don't have any data

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Speaker 1: on this, but it wouldn't be a massive surprise to

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Speaker 1: me to find that that kind of enforcement was not

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Speaker 1: being equally applied. I would have no trouble believing that

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Speaker 1: some people are being looked at a little bit harder

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Speaker 1: when it comes to that kind of thing. I also

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Speaker 1: should say, you know, in case folks don't know, like

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Speaker 1: when you do you check out with self checkout, like

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Speaker 1: you are being video recorded the entire time, So you know,

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Speaker 1: they definitely can pull back video footage. And I'm sure

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Speaker 1: it probably wouldn't be hard for a Target or a

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Speaker 1: Walmart to be like, oh, we think this person might

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Speaker 1: have stolen something and then provide video evidence that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really show anything to get that warrant signed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I definitely assume when I'm in Target

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Speaker 2: that I'm being like videotaped all the time, especially at

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Speaker 2: self checkout. I would be so shocked if they were

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Speaker 2: to contact me like weeks or months after leaving. That

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Speaker 2: seems so surprising. I'm curious how often that happens.

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Speaker 1: So I was too you know, I just saw this

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Speaker 1: one TikTok from a lawyer. I did confirm she is

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, but you know, I was like, this is

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Speaker 1: really happening. So a deep Google search did bring up

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Speaker 1: a few posts of people on legal message boards claiming

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Speaker 1: that they were used of stealing from using self checkout

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Speaker 1: when they hadn't actually sold, and that they ended up

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Speaker 1: needing to deal with like lawyers fees, and like it

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Speaker 1: took lots of time to sort it out. So it

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Speaker 1: does kind of seem like this might be an issue

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Speaker 1: that's happening. And ultimately this kind of gets at one

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Speaker 1: of my biggest beefs with self checkout, the implication that me,

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Speaker 1: as the shopper, should be the one who is tasked

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Speaker 1: with its responsibility in making sure that everything is scanned correctly,

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Speaker 1: and like I'm paying the amount I'm supposed to pay.

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Speaker 1: Like I know that people like to shit on retail employees,

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Speaker 1: but I have better retail employee. It is important work.

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Speaker 1: Those jobs exist for a reason, and so like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know that we should be so quick to just

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Speaker 1: outsource those jobs to the very same people that we

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Speaker 1: like can't even trust to put their shopping carts away

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Speaker 1: consistently when they go grocery shopping and just trust that

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Speaker 1: the populace is going to be able to do this correctly.

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Speaker 1: Like I'm not trained at it. I might be distracted.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going in thinking, you know, listening carefully to

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Speaker 1: these beeps and what actually gets beeped and put in

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Speaker 1: the bag that is a that is something that is

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Speaker 1: that if I do incorrectly, I could wind up with

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Speaker 1: legal fees and pork costs or whatever. That does not

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Speaker 1: sound like a great sat up to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it doesn't. But you know, again, I am curious

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Speaker 2: how many cases there are like this where someone legitimately

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Speaker 2: made some sort of mistake or error where they thought

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Speaker 2: they had paid for a thing but they didn't pay

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Speaker 2: for it, and then they end up like getting charged

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Speaker 2: with theft. Maybe it is happening a lot. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: but I guess a lot of this debate again circles

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Speaker 2: back in the most low stakes way possible to like

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Speaker 2: what kind of society do we want to live in?

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Speaker 3: And it doesn't seem completely.

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Speaker 2: Far fetched to me that like adult shoppers should understand that,

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Speaker 2: like you have to pay for the things that you

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Speaker 2: want to take out of the store, and like operate

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Speaker 2: this machine in a way that makes that how it

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Speaker 2: goes down right, Like it's yeah, maybe I haven't like

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Speaker 2: had a training in this software, but like at the Giant,

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Speaker 2: I've used those shelf checkouts like hundreds, if not thousands

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Speaker 2: of times, and like any other piece of software.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it takes.

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Speaker 2: A little bit of like experience to try to figure

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Speaker 2: out how to work it, but you know it's achievable.

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Speaker 1: I don't want this to devolve into another argument.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, I hold every every statement is

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to get into it.

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Speaker 1: Well, so I agree with you on the surface, right that, like, yeah, people,

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't just go into Target and expect to just

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Speaker 1: walk out with stuff that you haven't paid for all

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Speaker 1: the like, do I really am I really crying? Like

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Speaker 1: Target has plenty of money? Am I really like crying

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Speaker 1: tears for Target?

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Speaker 2: It's not like we're talking about that CBS and Columbia Height.

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Speaker 1: That's right, the C's where everything's free.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just take what you want, everything's free.

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Speaker 1: But like, I just think that efficiently checking out you

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Speaker 1: do have to bring a level of awareness that I

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Speaker 1: don't always have when I go into a Target because

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Speaker 1: I'm not thinking of going into work, and so like

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Speaker 1: if you're not, if I often when I shop, I'm

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Speaker 1: listening to music or podcasts in my headphones, I'm not

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Speaker 1: necessarily listening for the beep beep beep of every item.

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Speaker 1: It is conceivable that you could put something in your

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Speaker 1: bag and not hear the beep if you're like a

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Speaker 1: new parent who hasn't had any sleep and you're distracted

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Speaker 1: and your phone's going off and the kid is crying. Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that this is a widespread thing, but

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Speaker 1: I do think there are scenarios where perhaps that is

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Speaker 1: a burden that a consumer who is not at work

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Speaker 1: should not have to shoulder when they go in to

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Speaker 1: like pick up some items at Target, particularly if that

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Speaker 1: burden could wind up with you having legitimate legal trouble

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Speaker 1: over it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these are two separate issues, both worthy of debate

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Speaker 2: and discussion. You know, is it ethical to ask shoppers

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Speaker 2: to scan their own items? And separately, should people be

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Speaker 2: prosecuted when they make legit mistakes? Seems like clearly the

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Speaker 2: answer to that second question is.

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Speaker 1: Is no, Oh yeah, a thousand percent. So do you

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Speaker 1: remember Andy Rooney.

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Speaker 3: All the time? Every day? I miss him so much.

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Speaker 1: So for people who don't know who Andy Rooney is,

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Speaker 1: God rest his soul. Andy Rooney used to be on

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Speaker 1: sixty Minutes. He had a segment which that was literally

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Speaker 1: just him like complaining for twenty minutes, Like I will

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Speaker 1: never forget a segment where he just walks around a

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Speaker 1: grocery store and like picks up fruits that he doesn't like,

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Speaker 1: and it's like candalopes. Who needs them? And meanwhile I'm

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Speaker 1: like riveted. I'm like, oh, this is great TV. But

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Speaker 1: there is a piece in the Washington Post that could

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Speaker 1: have been written by the spirit of Andy Rooney. It

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Speaker 1: is like, it is like one of those style pieces

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Speaker 1: called Dear grocery store owners, I don't work for you.

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Speaker 1: The whole thing is snarky as hell, but this is

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Speaker 1: the thing I wanted to sort of tease out. The

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Speaker 1: piece reads, dear grocery store owners, have you seen me

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Speaker 1: in the break room? No, there's a reason I don't

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Speaker 1: work for you. I don't want to work for you.

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Speaker 1: I was bad at it as a middle schooler, and

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Speaker 1: I'm worse now. And then he goes on to say,

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Speaker 1: a lot of stores position eight receipt checker to see

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Speaker 1: whether people actually paid for all the stuff they have.

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Speaker 1: Wait a second, you set up this system, You made

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Speaker 1: us do all of this, So now that we've slogged

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Speaker 1: our way through our temp job with zero training, they're

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Speaker 1: going to audit us. And I think that that kind

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Speaker 1: of gets at something where nobody asked your average consumer

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Speaker 1: whether or not this is a dynamic they wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: I guess you have the choice when you get into

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Speaker 1: the self checkout line or the human line. Although at

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Speaker 1: our target, oftentimes if you go in there late at night,

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Speaker 1: there is no human option, is just self checkout. You

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Speaker 1: and I both know this to be true.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't know what's going on with the human

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Speaker 2: cashier lines at that target.

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Speaker 3: They are a checkout option of last resort for me.

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Speaker 1: So you're like, I would never, rarely am I dealing

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Speaker 1: with the human line at.

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Speaker 3: That specific target unless something has gone wrong.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, But that thing that happens after you do self

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Speaker 1: checkout at some big box retailers, where then you have

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Speaker 1: to show them your receipt and they have to check

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Speaker 1: to see and maybe they have to put like a

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Speaker 1: little marker thing on it, that has been a source

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Speaker 1: of concert for the public for a while. You've probably

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Speaker 1: seen videos of people like refusing to show their receipt.

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Speaker 1: Apparently from what I have read, you know, I'm no lawyer,

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Speaker 1: this is not legal advice. But you don't actually have

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Speaker 1: to stop and have that interaction with the person who

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Speaker 1: is like, can I see your receipt. I think that

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Speaker 1: the fact that that is a moment of frustration for

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Speaker 1: so many people, I think gets at what this Washington

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Speaker 1: Post piece is talking about. That people feel like, well,

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Speaker 1: you asked me to scan out my stuff, and now

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Speaker 1: you don't even trust me to do it. Like, either

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Speaker 1: you trust me or you don't.

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Speaker 2: This is one spot where you and I see eye

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Speaker 2: to eye because I hate that, you know, I've a

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Speaker 2: I hate people like stopping me and you know, having

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Speaker 2: this interaction with a security person who is acting like

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Speaker 2: a copy even though they're not.

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Speaker 3: I hate that.

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Speaker 2: And then they want me to like take all my

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Speaker 2: stuff out of my bag. I take a lot of

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Speaker 2: care when I pack my bags. And when I'm like

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Speaker 2: done with the checkout and carrying my fully packed bags,

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Speaker 2: I'm like right to carry them home. I'm not ready

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Speaker 2: to imprompt to take all the contents out and show

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Speaker 2: them to some security goon h to check me.

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Speaker 3: So I agree with you there.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand why they can't be doing that checking

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Speaker 2: with all of the cameras that they've got showing me

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Speaker 2: from like five different angles while I'm checking out, Like

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Speaker 2: if they don't see me stealing something when you know

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Speaker 2: when I'm actually doing it, why just do like these

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Speaker 2: these random checks down the line.

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Speaker 3: Don't like it, So.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. Because retail chains are investing a

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Speaker 1: lot of money on like, very serious kind of creepy

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Speaker 1: surveillance technology, and so it does seem to wit it

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Speaker 1: if you have all of this technology to then be

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Speaker 1: like and then you have to go through this little

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Speaker 1: indignity of showing me your receipt and opening your bag

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Speaker 1: on top of it, it does seem a little much.

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Speaker 1: So Walmart uses what internally they call the mist scan detection,

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Speaker 1: which they say helps detect when an item lands in

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Speaker 1: a shopping bag without being scanned. And so they're basically

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Speaker 1: these AI powered visual scanners and cameras that are at

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Speaker 1: both the self checkout register and the registers run by

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Speaker 1: the store cashiers. There was at least at some point,

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Speaker 1: use of facial recognition technology in Walmart. In twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: Walmart faced a lawsuit that was seeking class action status

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Speaker 1: a legend that Walmart violated Illinois as Biometric Privacy Act

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Speaker 1: by improperly using cameras and advanced video surveillance systems, as

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Speaker 1: well as software and databases provided by the facial recognition

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Speaker 1: company Clearview AI. So Walmart spokesperson says that they were

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Speaker 1: just testing out facial recognition technology that they weren't actually

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Speaker 1: like rolling it out in the stores. But it does

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Speaker 1: sound like all parties agree that this facial recognition technology

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Speaker 1: was being used. We've already done so many episodes on

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Speaker 1: why that technology is janky, faulty, racist, sexist, Like it

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Speaker 1: just don't work really is what it is. And so

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Speaker 1: if that's the technology that you're kind of counting on

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Speaker 1: or flirting with to deter theft, it really presents a

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Speaker 1: whole host of issues. Is because because it's really just

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Speaker 1: not really reliable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, facial recognition, as we talked about on a bunch

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Speaker 2: of episodes, is like bad news reinforces a lot of

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Speaker 2: bad disparities, certainly in this context when it's you know,

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Speaker 2: one step away from somebody being charged with a crime. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And you know the point that it's a lot of

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Speaker 2: money in these invested in these systems, Yeah, can't argue

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Speaker 2: with that.

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Speaker 1: And that's sort of one of my questions Slash Theories

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Speaker 1: is that it just said, this sounds like a lot

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Speaker 1: of investment in surveillance technology, and I feel like if

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Speaker 1: this is the level of surveillance technology that you need

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Speaker 1: to make self checkout work, then there is a problem,

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Speaker 1: like and I can't so, first of all, logistically, I

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Speaker 1: cannot imagine that the costs of investing in that kind

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Speaker 1: of technology apparatus is not being passed down to the

439
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: consumer in some way. I don't have any inside knowledge

440
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 1: of that. I just I have to assume that's the case.

441
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: You know, how it's now becoming clear how much retailers

442
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: lied about retail theft and how much it was hurting

443
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: their stores. And I think that they did that to

444
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: justify really cracking down on surveillance, really making the shopping

445
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 1: experience worse for consumers, and being like, well, it's not

446
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 1: our fault, it's crime. I wonder if there's some aspect

447
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: of that going on here, Like part of me wonders if,

448
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, Walmart really wants to be investing in

449
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,360
Speaker 1: this kind of surveillance technology and they're using self checkout

450
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,479
Speaker 1: as a way to justify that. I's like, oh, well

451
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: we have self checkout now that increases theft or go

452
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: we have to have this very involved surveillance technology in

453
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: all of our stores. I just wonder because it's such

454
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: a huge investment in very serious surveillance technology that I

455
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 1: don't know how it makes sense to have it otherwise.

456
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really interesting thought. We were doing some

457
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: research for this follow up episode here. One of the

458
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 2: things I came across was somebody who had worked in

459
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 2: software building a bunch of this type of surveillance stuff

460
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: that grocery stores, big box retailers could use to have

461
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 2: like scanners and AI trackers following people around in the

462
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 2: store to try to reduce theft.

463
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 3: And they made the exact same point.

464
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 2: This was a person who had built those technologies who

465
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: said that like all of them didn't work, were janky,

466
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 2: and were extremely expensive and not justified by the cost.

467
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: Like not, according to them, it was not even closed.

468
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 2: So the idea that the reason retailers are pushing for

469
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 2: this stuff is to justify increased surveillance. We see examples

470
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: all the time of people in positions of power making

471
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 2: decisions that cost them money just so they can maintain control. Right,

472
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: Like just last week we were talking about Anna Wintour

473
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 2: shuddering Pitchfork, even though it was profitable because there was

474
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: like rumblings of unionization, right like killing a powerful, well

475
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 2: liked brand just to like maintain that control. And so

476
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: spending a bunch of money on surveillance equipment, even though

477
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: it doesn't pay back in money, the owner gets to

478
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: like feel that level of control.

479
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break at our back. Something about

480
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: self checkout automatically to me feels like a dystopian surveillance

481
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: situation where we're getting away from what makes us humans

482
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 1: and relying more on technology, and like part of that

483
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: for me was the assumption that self checkouts are making

484
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: us lonelier or like has something to do with the

485
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: threads of society and humanity. That was an assumption that

486
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 1: I made, not based on any kind of facts or

487
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: research or reading that I'd done about it. It just

488
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: to me stood to reason that if we are in

489
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 1: a loneliness epidemic, especially for older folks, which the Surgeon

490
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: General released a report about this, the Threat of Social

491
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: Isolation recently, and like it is a damning report. If

492
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 1: that is happening, then certainly the rise of technology like

493
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: self checkouts is making it worse. So is that actually

494
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: the case? Well, you tell me, I read this report

495
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: in the Los Angeles Times that suggests that the US

496
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: is in the middle of this loneliness and isolation epidemic,

497
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: and that self checkouts are actually worse in the situation.

498
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: The Times report talks about the value of warm, low

499
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: stakes relationships like that between a shopper and a cashier,

500
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: especially for older people. They spoke to University of Michigan

501
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: psychology professor Tony Antonusci, who said that these kinds of

502
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: connections are a critical tool for maintaining emotional wellbeing later

503
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: in life as social circle shrink. So some supermarkets have

504
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: actually taken in ten steps to use the shopping experience

505
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 1: at their store to combat loneliness through chatty lines. Jumbo,

506
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: a grocery store chain in the Netherlands, has Katskasa, or

507
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 1: the chatty checkout line for shoppers who are not in

508
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: a hurry and actually want to have a conversation with

509
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: the clerk. Jumbo's chief commercial officer explained to the Conversation saying,

510
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: many people, especially the elderly, sometimes feel lonely. As a

511
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: family business and supermarket chain, we're the heart of society.

512
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: Our shops are an important meeting place for many people,

513
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 1: and we want to play a role in identifying and

514
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: reducing loneliness. So The first of one of these lanes

515
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: was so successful that the family owned company started rolling

516
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: out these chatty slow checkout lanes in two hundred of

517
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: its stores. Not only were customers really responding positively to it,

518
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: but this situation also apparently appealed to the employees. They

519
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: are trained to recognize signs of loneliness and come up

520
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: with local initiatives to combat social isolation. The lanes weren't

521
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: just big with older folks, but all shoppers of all

522
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: ages seem to really get a kick out of them.

523
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: So this is nice, and it sounds like it's working,

524
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: and it sounds like it's a needed thing, And I

525
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: really like hats off to Jumbo for startings initiatives. But

526
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: I just don't know if a retail cashier should be

527
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: shouldering the burden of staving off what sounds like a

528
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: real crisis of loneliness for people. In this Surgeon General's

529
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: report on loneliness that I mentioned, the search in general

530
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: lays out this like six point plan for combating loneliness,

531
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: and it's things like investing more in volunteer organizations or

532
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: religious groups, or policies around public trains or education or

533
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: physical spaces like parks and green spaces and library so

534
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: like more robust public infrastructure. Yes, I love public infrastructure. However,

535
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: here in the US, I don't think that like a

536
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: polite chatty clerk can really take the place of meaningful

537
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: investment in these kinds of social goods. Like I almost

538
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: feel like I like what they're doing with these chatty lanes,

539
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: and it does seem like it's helping. So I don't

540
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: want to make it seem like I'm pooh pooing that,

541
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: but I think that it's a lot to ask of

542
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: a retail cashier who is like their job is to

543
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: ring you up and be polite. I don't know that

544
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: we should be shouldering those folks with this burden of

545
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: easing something that clearly is related to a fraying social

546
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: goods infrastructure. Yeah.

547
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: I have a lot of thoughts about this.

548
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: One of them is that that Jumbo chain sounds really cool.

549
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: I would love to go check out one of their

550
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: chatty lines next time I'm in the Netherlands. Whenever that

551
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: might happen, I'm definitely gonna do it. It sounds like

552
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: a really nice thing that that grocery store chain has

553
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: chosen to do for its community. That feels like the

554
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: sort of I don't know, Jimmy Dean movie feel good

555
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: capitalism story that if only the world were more like that,

556
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: things would be a lot better. Maybe it is like

557
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,479
Speaker 2: that in the Netherlands, I don't know, but it's not

558
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: like that here in the US, right Like, I think

559
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: there are a lot of differences. For one thing, those

560
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: cashiers in the Netherlands, they have subsidized healthcare, they have

561
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: just a bunch of other social safety net things. They

562
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: probably have a much higher salary, I have to assume

563
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: than their counterparts here in the US. I was looking

564
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: into what cashiers make in the US, and like, you know,

565
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: I used to work hourly wage jobs, but it's been

566
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: a while and people are making ten dollars an hour,

567
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: right like that, that's just like not a lot of money.

568
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 2: And then to expect those people to shoulder this burden

569
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: like you were talking about, of chatting with strangers, in

570
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: making elderly folks feel connected, like those are really virtuous

571
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: things to do. But for somebody who's working like three

572
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: jobs sixty hours a week to like scrape by, that

573
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: feels like it's really asking a lot. And that context

574
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 2: of what is the experience like for that employee, that cashier,

575
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: I feel gets left out of a lot of these

576
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: arguments that we saw about like oh it self, checkouts

577
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: are making us all isolated. We should have more like

578
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: friendly chit chats with the cashier who's checking us out.

579
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 2: You know, I've definitely had experiences in my life where

580
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: I had like a nice, warm connection with a cashier

581
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: who is checking me out, But just as often I've

582
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: had the experience of like, Wow, this person is really

583
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: tired and they're not giving me the time of day,

584
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to take it personally, but I'm

585
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: also like not getting a lot of warm fuzzies out

586
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: of this interaction.

587
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna like get my things and get out

588
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 3: of here.

589
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: Well, that's another thing is that I have definitely, with

590
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: my own eyes witnessed retail clerks take the time to

591
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: really connect with people who are shopping in a way

592
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: that I'm like amazed by. And so I don't want

593
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: to make it seem like there are no retail cashiers

594
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: who are doing that, because I know that there are.

595
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: My mom is a big shopper, and I know that

596
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: a lot of times that shopping is being done out

597
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: of a p of wanting a warm connection, and so

598
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: she's clearly getting a warm connection and that's what she's

599
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: going in force. It's really not about the item that

600
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: she's buying. But like you said, if you're a retail

601
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: cash heer, you probably have your own struggles with loneliness,

602
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: and so like a like, are weas like passing down

603
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: this burden from cashier to cash here, to cash here

604
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: to cashier And you know, if we really as a

605
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: country cared about this loneliness epidemic, which it seems like

606
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: we're saying that we do because the Surgeon General put

607
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: out a report on it, it's clear what we should

608
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: be putting our investment and energy toward, right public good

609
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: and social good stuff like parks and libraries and community

610
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: centers and all of that. Like it just feels like

611
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: under capitalism, it is like, well, we should have parks

612
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: and libraries for older folks. Best we can do is

613
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: an underpaid barista who is nice to them, Like that's

614
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: that's all we got to offer. And it's just so sad,

615
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: like we like, it doesn't have to be that way,

616
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: but that's how it is. That's how it feels to me.

617
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, an underpaid barista and half a million dollars in

618
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 2: surveillance technology.

619
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, ris Will that helped?

620
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like what if we invested in the barista?

621
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: And this also bumps up around this, like popping online

622
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: discourse around chatting and retail employees. I'm chatty by nature.

623
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: I have a podcast, so like, I love to chat

624
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: somebody up and you can give you if you were.

625
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: If we're having a face to face, I'm asking how

626
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: your day was, I want some details. When we were

627
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: in Berlin that time, they are a less chatty people

628
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: and I asked that barista how his day was going.

629
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: What I'm a fake? He looked at me like I

630
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: had just insulted his mom.

631
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: God.

632
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, they really value efficiency over there, and I loved it.

633
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: I felt like by the end of the trip, I

634
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: finally had it down where I could like perfectly execute

635
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: telling the barista my order, perceiving it, paying and leaving

636
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: in the most efficient way possible. And in that moment

637
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: I felt like a small piece of pride, I guess

638
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: for like making it work in the German retail context.

639
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: So it does sound like, you know, we're talking about

640
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: how chatting with the retail clerk is good for folks

641
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: who are experiencing social isolation. But it does sound like

642
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: not everybody wants to have a chat with retail clerks. Recently,

643
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: writer Bailey Hird, who also worked as a server, tweeted,

644
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: sorry if this is rude or whatever, but I really

645
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: hate people who refuse to endure even the tiniest bits

646
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,959
Speaker 1: of small talk. Can't tell you how many times I've

647
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: walked up to a table and said, how are you

648
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: doing today, only to be met with complete silence and

649
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: a blank stare. And that's I mean, like it kind

650
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: of gets into a thing of like people are just

651
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: trying to do their job, and certainly, you know, you

652
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: get from corporate or whatever like oh, you're meant to

653
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: be chatty in this way or chatty in that way.

654
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: I used to work for a when I was in college,

655
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: I worked for a clothing retailer. I don't want to

656
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: say which one, because I I mean, I was very young,

657
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: but I quit in a very unprofessional way. But when they,

658
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, they gave us this guidance that when

659
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: you were letting somebody into a dressing room to try

660
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: on a bra or underwear or a camousol, like some

661
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: sort of intimate item. They wanted you to share a

662
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: secret with them, And so that was like the guidance

663
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 1: that we got. And so you you were you were

664
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: meant to be like, oh, like an example they gave was, oh,

665
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: you're you're trying on this bra. I love that bra.

666
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: I'm wearing it right now. Like that would be the

667
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 1: kind of like secret they wanted you to share.

668
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: What this is wild share a secret.

669
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: I always wondered if somebody was like, oh, let me

670
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: you want to need a fitting room? Yeah, here you go.

671
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: You know, I once hit a guy while I was

672
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 1: driving and I just kept going. I didn't even stop.

673
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: And we enjoy your items. So what I'm saying is

674
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: like retail clerks and people who are working in the

675
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: service industry, they're like often given guidance from corporate to

676
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: like be chatty in a specific way. I don't know.

677
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: I do feel like we have this situation where people

678
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: are complaining about this and these people are just trying

679
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: to do their jobs, I guess is what I'm saying.

680
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: Like at Trader Joe's, which as far as I know,

681
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: Trader Joe does not do self checkout, Like none of

682
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: the Trader Jows have ever been has had self checkout, and.

683
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: I was thinking about them. I think Trader Joe's is

684
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 2: like the anti self checkout, Yes.

685
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: And they actually it sounds like maybe they want their

686
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: cashiers to be like a little more chatty with you

687
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 1: than other places. I saw this TikTok that I hated

688
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: where somebody was bemoaning the fact that to shop at

689
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: Trader Joe's they feel like they have to do emotional

690
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: labor of chatting with the cashier to buy their groceries.

691
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. If you are someone who is shopping,

692
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: you're not the one doing emotional labor in that situation.

693
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: The person who is required by corporate or their boss

694
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: to like be polite and chatty with you, even if

695
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: they don't feel like it to ring you up, that

696
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: is the person doing emotional labor, not you. You're not

697
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 1: doing that. All of this to say, I think that

698
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: the question of what we get and what we lose

699
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: through the chattiness and politeness of a retail person is

700
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 1: a whole separate thing. When technology comes into the conversation,

701
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: it was easy for me to assume, like automatically, when

702
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: you're doing self checkout, you're losing this connection and that's bad.

703
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: But from doing this research, I do think that is

704
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 1: a little more complex than that.

705
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. Should we get into the listener feedback?

706
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: Let's do it all right, Well, I'll just start reading then.

707
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 3: So this one came.

708
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: From Hey bridget here, just an FYI that this listener

709
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 1: wanted to be anonymous, So we are bleeping that listener's name.

710
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 1: In case you're wondering why there are bleeps, that's.

711
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: Why how I can bridge it. Wow, this issue just

712
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 2: evokes strong feelings. I've never felt the desire to comment

713
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: on something before. The self checkouts is what brings me

714
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: to comment. I'd be curious to see if other small

715
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: things like this get more comments. I like self checkouts

716
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: mostly because I get to do my own bagging. Cashiers

717
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: and baggers aren't paid enough to make sure my bread

718
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 2: doesn't get squished. My favorite method is what Meijer does.

719
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: That's a brand in the Midwest. The store. They have

720
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: a phone app where I can scan and bag as

721
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: I grab things. Then I just zip through the payment.

722
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 2: It would be even better if I could pay through

723
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: the app. They probably won't do that because of shoplifting. Disclaimer.

724
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: I think shoplifting is a consequence of poverty, and don't

725
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: blame shoplifters.

726
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 3: Do what you gotta do.

727
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: I'm a stickler for data interpretation, so I have some

728
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: thoughts about the stats from the last episode. Sixty seven

729
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: percent of people have experienced the failure at self checkouts?

730
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: What is the percentage failure for human checkouts? Also, sixty

731
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 2: seven percent represents the percentage of people who have experienced

732
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: an event. What's the failure rate per transaction? Given then

733
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: a majority of people like self checkouts, I would posit

734
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: that failure rate per transaction is low speculation. I think

735
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: the part that fails the most is the weight sensor

736
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: that is making sure you bag items. The stores that

737
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 2: I shop at don't use this sensor, and it's much

738
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: more smooth. I don't know why they care. You've already

739
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 2: scanned the item, so you can't steal it.

740
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: That's such a good point.

741
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 2: It is a good point. Yeah, right, you've already scanned it,

742
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: you can't steal it.

743
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 1: So, as a data practitioner, are you a data scientist

744
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: or a data practitioner? Because this is like I know,

745
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: Mike asked somebody who works at data. You probably were like,

746
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: great questions. Thank you for seeing the data like I do,

747
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: which is precisely.

748
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

749
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: I mean, is you know, quite reasonably focused on like

750
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: what is the denominator here?

751
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 3: What's the failure rate per transaction?

752
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 2: I think I made you know a similar point last time,

753
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 2: that sixty seven percent of people said they've experienced a

754
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: failure with self checkout. I've experienced a failure with like everything,

755
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 2: my computer, my phone, my car, my relationship, my cat,

756
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 2: Like everything fails at sub point or an other, right,

757
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: But I'm not gonna throw it out.

758
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: You are absolutely correct. It is the little things that

759
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: I think people feel the most strongly and passionately about.

760
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: So if folks are listening, if you're like, oh, here's

761
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: another little tech thing that we should talk about in

762
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: society that we all deal with, and what are your

763
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: thoughts on it? That would be a great segment. So

764
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: if folks have those, please write it. I want to

765
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: hear them. Who knew that these little things would be

766
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: such a sticking point for folks.

767
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also satisfying to talk about because I do

768
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 2: have strong feelings, but I don't have like identity connected

769
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: to it, So it feels possible to talk about them

770
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: and like hear new perspectives and change my mind in

771
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: a way that doesn't It doesn't always feel that way

772
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: about some other issues where there's disagreement. So it concludes

773
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: it's the small things, isn't it?

774
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: It sure is.

775
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: Okay.

776
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: So the next email is from Phil Jones high Bridget.

777
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: I've got a lot to say on this subject, but

778
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 2: first and foremost, you're right.

779
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 3: Fuck those machines.

780
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: For whatever added context this might provide. I live in Gattina, Quebec,

781
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: on the border with Ottawa, Ontario, the nation's capital. My

782
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: general stance is that those machines are worse for everyone.

783
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 2: As you stated, then we've got four bulleted items here.

784
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: Number one slows the customer down is they now have

785
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 2: to operate the checkout, a specialized job people have long

786
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 2: been hired and trained for. There are quirks to the

787
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 2: machine that only a seasoned operator knows how to maneuver around.

788
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: There are special items that need to be dealt with

789
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: differently than standard barcode items.

790
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 3: It's a mess.

791
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 2: Number two takes away a job from cashiers who now

792
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: stand around and monitor a bank of machines that took

793
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 2: their job. The cashier was promoted to managing a row

794
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: of insulting facsimiles of their former role. Number three, it

795
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: removes a bagger job entirely, as that's now on the customer.

796
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: Number four, it makes scamming the store that much easier,

797
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 2: so it's worse for loss prevention. The classics stake for

798
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 2: the price of bananas scam. Ultimately, the machines continue to

799
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 2: degrade interpersonal connections and community. We might see the same

800
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: cashiers every week at our local grocery store or pharmacy,

801
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 2: and whether we like them or not, recognize that we're

802
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: part of the same world and need to get along

803
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 2: to meet our own needs. These machines put yet another

804
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: barrier between us and our fellow humans. So let's take

805
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: a break there, because Phil has laid out a lot

806
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: for us.

807
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

808
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: First of all, Phil, keep emailing me, because you can

809
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: write an email the way that this was so eloquently

810
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: laid out. I'm like, bulleted, this is the kind of

811
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: email that I really appreciate. Please keep emailing me. Phill's

812
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: email kind of gets at that tension that I feel

813
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: right that it does feel like for whatever reason, self

814
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 1: checkout is indicative of some kind of a fraying of

815
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: a social fabric that you know, like, like one of

816
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: the concepts I was reading about when I was preparing

817
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: for this episode is this concept of a frictionless society,

818
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: that it's automatically better if you're not having to deal

819
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: with the friction that sometimes comes with navigating another human.

820
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: That you order your groceries online and do curbside pickup,

821
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: you order Uber eat and they leave it at your door,

822
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: you don't even have to like talk to them, and

823
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: questioning the assumption that this is actually a better, more

824
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: cohesive society because the point of being in a society

825
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: is navigating other humans and sometimes we don't like it,

826
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 1: but like that society. I think that Phill's email really

827
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: really gets at the tension that I feel around that

828
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: of like, well, is this better? Is this a society

829
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: where I'm dealing with humans and navigating the intricacies of

830
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: that daily, Is that automatically a better society or a

831
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: more efficient society?

832
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: Yeah?

833
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 2: I think Phil definitely has a very dystopian view of

834
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 2: the impact of these machines, Like we're all deep in

835
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,879
Speaker 2: the sub basement of Metropolis, glommily scanning our items. They

836
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: are good questions and it's if nothing else, this is

837
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: useful for us to like step back and think about,

838
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: like what does it mean to be connected to familiar

839
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 2: strangers in our community and forced transactions in the checkout

840
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: lane with the cashier? What is the value of those?

841
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 2: Like maybe they're both good and bad. So that was

842
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 2: Phil's dystopian take on why those machines should be fucked. However,

843
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: Phil goes on to list a few scenarios where he

844
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 2: does use the machines another three points. Number one at

845
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: Shopper's drug mar slash Pharma pricks think CBS. Depending on

846
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: the location, there's usually one actual cashier in a bank

847
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: of machines. If I'm only ever buying a couple of things,

848
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: it is more discreete For the more personal purchases, and

849
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: the one I frequent the most, there is usually like

850
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: uncannily often an elderly person buying multiple six packs of

851
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: Pepsi bottles. There's the Quebec context for you. I didn't

852
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 2: know they drank a lot of Pepsi and Quebec. It's

853
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 2: just faster to use the machines. Second bulleted item from

854
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: Phil at Costco, I'm basically only ever buying a handful

855
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: of things that are cheaper and used at scale. I

856
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: live with my partner, no kids. We don't need most

857
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: things in bulk. Waiting in a ten person long line

858
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: with overflowing jumbo sized carts is entirely unnecessary. At Costco,

859
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: the machines are basically the express line. It's overseen by

860
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: as many as four people for six machines, or at

861
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: least a dozen cashier lines with both a cashier and

862
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: a bagger. No jobs are being lost here. This is

863
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 2: possibly the ideal situation for the machine.

864
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: So I don't have a Costco membership. I would die

865
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: of happiness to have one. Philis just confirming my widely

866
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: held belief that Costco is my version of heaven and

867
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: I want to go there.

868
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

869
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:18,760
Speaker 2: And I think this also re emphasizes the connection between

870
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 2: how the workers are treated and the customer experience that

871
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 2: people get to have when they go to this store. Right,

872
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 2: Like we talked about that Dutch store where because it's

873
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 2: in the Netherlands, you know there is a social safety net.

874
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 2: They're providing a really good experience for the customers and

875
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 2: the management is not trying to nickel and dime every

876
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: like minute and action of the employee's time. Instead, they're

877
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: allowing the employees to, like and not just allowing, but

878
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: encouraging and facilitating the employees that spend some time like

879
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: caring for the customers. Costco is another company that treats

880
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: its workers pretty well. And then at the other end

881
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: of the spectrum, we have like Dollar General, which is

882
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 2: notorious for treating its workers about as bad as you

883
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: can legally treat a person. And they were just like

884
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 2: all in for the self checkout, where they would have

885
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: you know, one or two people in the store managing

886
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: the entire store all aspects of the operations, from like

887
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: managing to stocking the shelves, receiving deliveries, to mopping the floors,

888
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: to fixing the self checkout machines when they invariably need

889
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: to be cleared.

890
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 3: These things are super related.

891
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think there is definitely some connection between

892
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: how the like. I mean, it's just decisions being made

893
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: at the corporate level trickling down to the experience that us,

894
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: both as humans who are shopping and humans who are

895
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 1: checking people out, are having.

896
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, like what is valued? Pil goes on. I've experienced

897
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 2: failure at any and all stores i've used. The machines

898
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 2: at grocery stores are particularly bad because of the complex

899
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 2: set of items. I think the machines are optimal at

900
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: five or fewer bar coded items. Beyond that, a trained

901
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: human is far more efficient. Checking out a grocery store

902
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: is a two person operation. That's why there are baggers

903
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: at subourbon stores at least that find they're mercifully absent

904
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 2: in urban stores. I prefer to bag my own groceries,

905
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,959
Speaker 2: but I can only do that efficiently because someone else

906
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: is handling the entirely separate process of scanning items and

907
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 2: handling exceptions, the cashier and I are a team. I

908
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: used to work in the retail tech space against this

909
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 2: phil as part of an internal communication SaaS company. When

910
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: researching integrating advanced retail hardware, I found a trove of

911
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 2: dystopian tracking devices, from camera setups that heat mapware customers

912
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 2: stop in a store for optimizing product positioning, to tracking

913
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: MAC addresses of people on the street, from pinpoint advertising

914
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 2: the shelves with pressure sensors to present video advertisements. Shit,

915
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: that's not even worth implementing or having developed in the

916
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: first place, as the cost is so much higher than

917
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 2: the return automated checkout machines are the one ubiquitous piece

918
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 2: that made it to the mainstream, the most frictionless, right,

919
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: the most frictionless version of these is indeed the most dystopian.

920
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: The Amazon Go model, where you're in individually tracked throughout

921
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 2: the store, intercharge for all the items once you leave

922
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 2: the store easy, but nightmarishly removed from human interaction and

923
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 2: giving over so much personal data to Amazon.

924
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: No.

925
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 2: Thanks, sorry for the long email, Thanks for the awesome show.

926
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 3: Cheers Phil.

927
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: That is terrifying and I think that the cost of

928
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: some of this technology it must be astronomical and I

929
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 1: can't imagine it's worth it. And so if this feels

930
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: to me like it is investing in surveillance tech for

931
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: surveillance tech's sake.

932
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so thanks Phil for writing in, because that was

933
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 2: a pretty insightful email with some specialized knowledge.

934
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 3: Let me go on.

935
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,439
Speaker 2: This one comes from Susan Bridget. I think you're gonna

936
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 2: like this, Bridget, Mike, I dislike self checkout immensely and

937
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: only use it at force too. For example, if the

938
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 2: line for a person is really long and I only

939
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 2: have one item, that is maybe once every year or two.

940
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 2: My goal is to never use it. I think it's impersonal, frustrating,

941
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 2: and job stealing. When I lived in Boston, the stopping

942
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 2: shop near me had these you could take with you

943
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,959
Speaker 2: as you shopped and bag your groceries in your cart.

944
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: You just had to pay on the way out. I

945
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 2: didn't mind those, and the technology seemed more reliable than

946
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: the typical self checkout. You paid a cashier, but you

947
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 2: didn't have to put your groceries on a belt. Occasionally,

948
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 2: they would randomly flag you for a spot check of

949
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: your items. I guess to prevent theft. After they scanned

950
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: a few items, you were on your way. I actually

951
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: liked that system way better than self checkout. Susan goes

952
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 2: on to thank us for the episode about Claudine Gay.

953
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 2: She brings up some really good points about that that

954
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 2: it's not a coincidence that all of the Ivy League

955
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 2: college presidents called it testify before Congress were women. It's

956
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: not a coincidence that two of the three women are

957
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: now gone from their leadership roles. It's not a coincidence

958
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 2: that the prime target for the far rights campaign was

959
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 2: a highly qualified black woman. There are so many mediocre

960
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: white men holding positions of leadership that are never targeted. Yeah,

961
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: so thanks Susan for the nice email.

962
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for listening, Susan, And I do like this

963
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: email kind of. I like it because it affirms my

964
00:48:58,320 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: worldview surprisingly all.

965
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting that, you know, Susan is clear

966
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 2: that she dislikes them, the self checkout immensely, but then

967
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: goes on to describe this other less oppressive system of

968
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 2: checking oneself out that was less objectionable. Right, So it's

969
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: I do have to wonder how much of this people's

970
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 2: visceral reaction against self checkout is just the sort of

971
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 2: jankiness of the machines and the frustration of standing there

972
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 2: while it's like furiously beeping at you and telling you

973
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: that you've done something wrong. That like maddening, frustrating feeling.

974
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: I think I have a special sensitivity to machines beeping

975
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: at me. Part of me wonders if my feelings on

976
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: self checkout are because I am the befuddled person who

977
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: can't figure it out and the machine is beeping and

978
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: everybody's looking and I'm like having an issue.

979
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's just software, right like, and it's one

980
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 2: can master it.

981
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: I'll get there one day.

982
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 2: Okay, here's our final email from Emily. Emily brought up

983
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 2: some really good points. I've been working as a cashier

984
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 2: at a grocery store since twenty twenty and have been

985
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 2: on the front lines of the self checkout debate, mostly

986
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 2: from customers complaining to me, a person with no power

987
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 2: over the addition of self checkout machines at our store,

988
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 2: about how hated they are and that.

989
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:25,959
Speaker 3: They're taking my job.

990
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 2: While I can certainly see where they concern about my

991
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: job security comes from, at least in my personal experience,

992
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 2: the inclusion of self checkout machines has actually made my.

993
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 3: Job easier and more secure.

994
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 2: Pretty much every member of my team has suffered some

995
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: sort of checking related injury, be it bone spurs, carpal tunnel,

996
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 2: or tennis elbow from the repetitive motions of scanning items

997
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: with self checkout. Rather than having to take unpaid time

998
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: off work, since this usually starts before you've worked enough

999
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 2: hours to get paid time off, we can instead work

1000
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: the self checkout machines, which require less manual labor and

1001
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 2: therefore less stress on work related injuries. As for the

1002
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 2: machines taking our jobs, I'm a little more split on

1003
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: the truth of this. On one hand, I don't want

1004
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 2: to go to bat for any corporations looking to raise

1005
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 2: profits by cutting labor costs. But on the other as

1006
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 2: someone who was an essential worker during the initial COVID

1007
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 2: lockdown and the ensuing spikes and variations, I can tell

1008
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: you it is a thankless job, and I don't forgrudge

1009
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: anyone who quits to move on to less people facing work.

1010
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 2: The front end has the highest turnover rate of any

1011
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 2: department at my store. Since having self checkout machines, I

1012
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: at least do not have to deal with customers complaining

1013
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 2: to me about understaffing and long lines. Obviously, I'm just

1014
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: one person with one experience, but I figured i'd give

1015
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 2: my point of view since it became such a heated topic.

1016
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 2: Love the show and hope you're all doing well. Thanks

1017
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 2: for your time, Emily.

1018
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: Emily, thank you so much for this email, because I

1019
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: really wanted to get the perspective of somebody who currently

1020
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: works retail. I did not even think about the repetitive

1021
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 1: motion of scanning out people's items and what that might

1022
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: do to someone's body, and so the alternative of being like, well,

1023
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: you don't have to take time off make no money,

1024
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: you can do the self checkout, which is a lot

1025
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: less physically demanding on you. I didn't even think about

1026
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 1: that as a potential reason why self checkout might be better

1027
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 1: in retail establishments, and so I'm really thankful for that perspective. Also,

1028
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: I didn't think about this either, but it makes so

1029
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: much sense that people who have issues with self checkout

1030
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,919
Speaker 1: complaining to the retail cashier who like she's like, oh, well,

1031
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 1: I actually made the decision to put that, to put

1032
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 1: that in the store, thanks for letting me know. I'll

1033
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: take it out. Like what do people think that? Like,

1034
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: that's how the decisions get made. Like, even if you

1035
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: have issues with self checkout, like I do, you don't

1036
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: need like complaining to the retail cashier who has who

1037
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: did not make the decision to put that there is

1038
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: not the proper way to do that. Complain on your

1039
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: podcast people.

1040
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and not just complaining to this cashier who sounds

1041
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,479
Speaker 2: like didn't really want to hear it, but also frame

1042
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 2: me it as like, and I'm complaining because I really

1043
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 2: care about protecting your job, Like, get over yourself.

1044
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 3: You don't care about this person's job.

1045
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 2: If you cared, you would like say something nice to

1046
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 2: them or like tell a joke, not just like complain

1047
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,320
Speaker 2: at them about how you are inconvenienced.

1048
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: I'm complaining at you for your benefit, don't you see this?

1049
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1050
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: And also like it just I mean it also kind

1051
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: of goes back to the conversation about retail establishments and loneliness,

1052
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: Like it just confirms to me that putting the burden

1053
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: on retail cashiers to stave off the loneliness epidemic. When

1054
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: Emily is saying that the people the kind of experiences

1055
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: people are having working at the front end like this

1056
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 1: are not really that great and that people are rude

1057
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: and people, you know, maybe it's not something that people

1058
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: will want to would would have a lot of warm

1059
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: fuzzies about.

1060
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that aspect really like stuck with me. I've been

1061
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 2: thinking about that a lot since we did that episode

1062
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 2: and read these emails. How you know, I personally feel

1063
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 2: like I've you know, the experience of living in a

1064
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 2: city during twenty twenty when COVID disrupted all of our

1065
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 2: lives and we were like trapped inside. It really like

1066
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: changed a lot of things. That certainly changed me. And

1067
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 2: so one part one thing after this conversation is I've

1068
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 2: just been thinking about how has it changed me? Right, Like,

1069
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 2: maybe I should go through the cash the like human

1070
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 2: cashier line a little bit more often.

1071
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1072
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 2: I recently, you know, I think over the weekend, went

1073
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 2: to the grocery store, that same giant that we've been

1074
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 2: talking about all the time, and there was some kind

1075
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: of issue happening at the self checkout machines, and the

1076
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 2: line was just like not moving, and so I was like,

1077
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: you know what, as a little experiment, I'm going to

1078
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 2: get in the human cashier line. And I did have

1079
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 2: a perfectly nice interaction with the woman checking me out.

1080
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 2: We talked about the fennel I was buying. It was

1081
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: a nice interaction. So maybe the self checkout is like

1082
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 2: not even the thing. Maybe we just like need to

1083
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 2: treat each other a little better.

1084
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 1: Oh, I think that's right, Like the self checkout can

1085
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: be like an internal test of how we're doing, how

1086
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: well or how badly we're connecting and thinking about our

1087
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: fellow human.

1088
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true.

1089
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of time when I'm when I'm

1090
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 2: feeling particularly low or stressed or angry or something, those

1091
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:17,959
Speaker 2: are the times when I just want to head down

1092
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 2: go into the self checkout line, and yeah, maybe that

1093
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 2: can be a little like signal to me to be

1094
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:27,879
Speaker 2: a little more mindful of my mood and maybe try

1095
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: to change it by I don't know, being kind to

1096
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 2: somebody or something.

1097
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 1: Oh, I have to do that with intention when I'm

1098
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: in that place where everything is going wrong and I

1099
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: feel like I'm about to lash out. It's like a

1100
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: personal challenge with myself to like go do something nice

1101
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: for a stranger and see if that reconnects, like reconnects you,

1102
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: recalibrates you, ground you. Like it's like a personal challenge

1103
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: because otherwise I just know myself that I can really

1104
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: spin out and it's like, oh, the reason that this

1105
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: thing didn't go well, if this person had nothing to

1106
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 1: do with it, I mean, take my anger out on them.

1107
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 1: Like so it's it's like a little a little challenge

1108
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: that I have to myself to sort of reconnect and

1109
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 1: stay grounded. And then also just like stay I just

1110
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: try to stay grateful and checked in to the fact

1111
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: that we're all sharing space together, sharing this world together,

1112
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: and like it's comes with annoyances and handcuffs, but at

1113
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: the end of the day, like what a gift.

1114
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, and you know, maybe we have to

1115
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 2: have three or four mundane, draining interactions to be able

1116
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,439
Speaker 2: to have that one good one that like changes our mood,

1117
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 2: spins it more positive, and gives us those those warm

1118
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: fuzzies with the stranger at the store. All right, so

1119
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 2: thanks again for writing in getting this kind of listener

1120
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 2: feedback is amazing, feels really good, and bridget we still

1121
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 2: need to do that experiment where we go to these

1122
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 2: stores and like actually compare, although it feels a little

1123
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 2: us charged now.

1124
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: Oh, when we were queing the episode, I was like

1125
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,359
Speaker 1: getting getting my shoes on. I was like, let's do this,

1126
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 1: but we're still gonna do it. Details to come, and

1127
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:16,439
Speaker 1: as I said, I want to start really untacking other

1128
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: low stakes tech stuff. One that I might have is

1129
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: QR code menus. Maybe that'll be next because I have

1130
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: a lot of feelings about QR code menus and if

1131
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: you do too, maybe start percolating on that. But yeah,

1132
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: thanks for listening and thanks for sharing your feedback with us.

1133
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 1: And Mike, I guess I'll see you at the grocery store.

1134
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll see you there. Away from the self checkout.

1135
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. I

1136
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: just want to say hi. You can reach us at

1137
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: Hello at tengodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

1138
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

1139
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me for Ja Toad.

1140
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland

1141
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

1142
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: sound engineers. Michael Amado is our contribute producer. I'm your host,

1143
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

1144
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1145
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1146
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.