Speaker 1: Today. It's great to chat with Nedra Glover Towab. Nedra
Speaker 1: is a licensed therapist and sought after relationship expert. She
Speaker 1: has practiced relationship therapy for thirteen years and is the
Speaker 1: founder and owner of the group therapy practice Kaleidoscope Counseling.
Speaker 1: Nedra has been featured recently in The New York Times,
Speaker 1: The Guardian, Psychology Today, Self and Vice, and has appeared
Speaker 1: on numerous podcasts, including Today's podcast. She runs a popular
Speaker 1: Instagram account where she shares practices, tools and reflections for
Speaker 1: mental health and hosts weekly Q and a's. And I
Speaker 1: can honestly say I love her Instagram account. It makes
Speaker 1: my day almost every day. So thanks so much for
Speaker 1: being on the podcast today, Nedra, You're so welcome. Thank
Speaker 1: you for the warm introduction of course, well well deserved,
Speaker 1: well deserved. So now I just want to just have
Speaker 1: our listeners a little do you know, know a little
Speaker 1: bit more about you before we dive into the topic
Speaker 1: of your latest book. So you've been a therapist or
Speaker 1: relationship counselor for thirteen years, a long time. You've You've
Speaker 1: seen a lot, right, You've seen a lot. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: seen things go from in person to virtual. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a lot of people hurting right now. Huh. You know,
Speaker 1: I would say that they are adjusting. I've been surprised
Speaker 1: at the amount of people who've adjusted to what this
Speaker 1: time has called for. In March, I got really really
Speaker 1: busy just with a lot of old folks coming back
Speaker 1: and with new people. So I think everyone has adjusted.
Speaker 1: There are still some folks who prefer in person, but
Speaker 1: they are doing what they need to in this pandemic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: people are doing what they need to do, and it
Speaker 1: kind of shows the deep reservoirs of resiliency that we have.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of people of telling
Speaker 1: me and my own clients are saying, well, I didn't
Speaker 1: know that I could get through such such solitude, you know. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think we need to give people a little
Speaker 1: bit pat on the back. Yeah. So, well, why do
Speaker 1: you write this book? It's a topic I know you've
Speaker 1: written about for a while and it's super super important.
Speaker 1: At what point were you like, you know what, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna turn this to a book. You know,
Speaker 1: I noticed that there isn't a ton of information about boundaries,
Speaker 1: and there are some questions that I constantly asked about boundaries,
Speaker 1: Where are they? How do you set them? What do
Speaker 1: you exactly say how to deal with the guilt around
Speaker 1: setting boundaries? So this book is an answer to so
Speaker 1: many questions that people have about boundaries because there's not
Speaker 1: any current piece of material that people can go to
Speaker 1: and say this is everything I need to know about boundaries.
Speaker 1: Is very piecemeal and it's a little bit of boundaries
Speaker 1: in this book and a little bit of boundaries here,
Speaker 1: or you know, and this is like all about boundaries,
Speaker 1: and so it was just necessary for the times. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it really is. Well, first of all, I just want
Speaker 1: to ask, what is a boundary? You know, can do
Speaker 1: you have a proper definition of that? Yeah? I think
Speaker 1: a boundary is a verbal or behavioral statement that you
Speaker 1: make to feel comfortable, safe, and protected in your relationships
Speaker 1: with others. Typically, we think of boundaries as just verbal
Speaker 1: and really, when I say verbal, telling people what to do, right,
Speaker 1: So we think of that as boundaries, but it's so
Speaker 1: much more than that. It can also be changing our
Speaker 1: behaviors in relationships, and sometimes it is asking other people
Speaker 1: to change their behaviors, and it's also saying no. So
Speaker 1: it's so many things, And I think when we think
Speaker 1: of that word, we think of these tough walls and
Speaker 1: always saying no, and that is just a midget of
Speaker 1: what a boundary is and not the totality of what
Speaker 1: healthy boundaries are. I think there's some like related concepts here.
Speaker 1: I was super interested when you talked about enmeshment as well,
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, I thought, could you explain
Speaker 1: a little bit what that means? And also what is
Speaker 1: the difference between How can you tell when it's just
Speaker 1: you're just close with someone versus you're messed with someone?
Speaker 1: I would love to know the difference. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: of enmeshment as walking alongside someone. I meant walking intertwined
Speaker 1: with someone and being separate as walking alongside them so
Speaker 1: we can go our separate ways, we can come back together.
Speaker 1: But when we are intertwined with people, what we do
Speaker 1: is dependent on what they do. How we feel is
Speaker 1: dependent on how they feel, and so there is no
Speaker 1: separateness in each other. It's really we are the same person,
Speaker 1: and if we are not being the same, there is
Speaker 1: a problem when in relationships we are different. We have
Speaker 1: you know, different TV preferences from our partners. Sometimes with
Speaker 1: our friends. We don't all have the same friend group.
Speaker 1: We have different jobs from people, so there are so
Speaker 1: many things about us that are different. And it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that we need to be divided because of those differences,
Speaker 1: but maybe it's a part of the conversation. So if
Speaker 1: all of those things can be different, and okay, so
Speaker 1: can some of our needs, so can some of our
Speaker 1: desires in relationships. I love that well. I mean, do
Speaker 1: you have a sort of checklist on like we's signs
Speaker 1: that you need to set down, Like what are some
Speaker 1: like when when should a warm bell start going off?
Speaker 1: One big alarm bell is your feelings. And I know
Speaker 1: sometimes it's really hard to think about how you feel
Speaker 1: because we're taught so often to question what we feel.
Speaker 1: I don't or talk yourself out of what you feel.
Speaker 1: But when you're invited to a party and it's not
Speaker 1: a yes and you start to feel maybe anxious or
Speaker 1: upset about it, that might be an indication of a
Speaker 1: boundary needed. And that boundary could be no, it could
Speaker 1: be clarifying with the other person the expectations of a party.
Speaker 1: But it's certainly something there because you are feeling something,
Speaker 1: and so what could that something be? So so often
Speaker 1: the indicator that we need boundaries the first thing is
Speaker 1: how we're feeling about something, and so teaching people not
Speaker 1: to bypass their feelings is a huge part of my work,
Speaker 1: and we do the basics of what does it mean
Speaker 1: to feel angry? What does it mean to feel sad?
Speaker 1: When you're what's the last thing that made you said?
Speaker 1: When you're sad? What do you do? What happens to
Speaker 1: your body? Because so often we bypass it and we
Speaker 1: don't think about, like, oh my gosh, like this is
Speaker 1: an indicator that this thing really makes me upset. We
Speaker 1: just say, I don't know why I'm feeling like this.
Speaker 1: I should want to go to this thing. But wanting
Speaker 1: to go to something is not the same as actually
Speaker 1: wanting to go right, So we have to really tune
Speaker 1: into how we're feeling about the things we're caught to do,
Speaker 1: the things we're called to be in relationships, that is
Speaker 1: the number one way. Number two is if there is
Speaker 1: a pattern of resentment in the relationship or frustration, if
Speaker 1: you chronically feel like you're being put upon, So really
Speaker 1: evaluating the patterns and dynamics in the relationship can help
Speaker 1: you understand what the boundaries are, And then you know,
Speaker 1: number three, I would say being attuned to what your
Speaker 1: desires are, because sometimes people may want something that we
Speaker 1: can't offer them or that we're unwilling to offer, and
Speaker 1: in those cases it's okay to say no or yes
Speaker 1: or really figure that out. But being in tuned with
Speaker 1: who you are and your needs for yourself and your
Speaker 1: space certainly helps with that. Well, what's you say, there's
Speaker 1: like a number one reason why people are scared of
Speaker 1: setting boundaries, and can you talk a little about that?
Speaker 1: Is because I kind of resonated with that one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the number one reason is the fear of what other
Speaker 1: people will think about the boundaries. So we really get
Speaker 1: trapped in this idea that we will be rejected, that
Speaker 1: they won't listen to us, and the and the worst
Speaker 1: case scenario is the only option for this situation, and
Speaker 1: you know, many times that's not true. And really to
Speaker 1: combat that idea, we have to do a lot of
Speaker 1: work around what has happened in the past when we've
Speaker 1: asked someone, you know, maybe, hey, don't eat my carages,
Speaker 1: have my car detailed? Did they explode or did they
Speaker 1: say okay? Most of the time they just said okay,
Speaker 1: But for some reason we really think about it to
Speaker 1: the point of exhaustion and being paralyzed and being able
Speaker 1: to implement this boundary. People have boundaries and we can too.
Speaker 1: Lots of people have boundaries in relationships. Lots of things
Speaker 1: are boundaries and we respect them and we don't make
Speaker 1: a big deal about it, and so perhaps other people
Speaker 1: can do that too. Really, so there's hope here. There is, absolutely,
Speaker 1: there is so much hope, and setting boundaries with other
Speaker 1: people is not a hopeless process. I think we talk
Speaker 1: ourselves out of it. The most troubling piece is the
Speaker 1: long term relationships where we haven't had any boundaries and
Speaker 1: we're having to go in and slowly bring the relationship
Speaker 1: up to a healthy pace. So that is pretty daunting
Speaker 1: to you know, go in with your parents, and go
Speaker 1: in with your siblings, and go in with your in
Speaker 1: laws and extended family on all of these sort of relationships,
Speaker 1: because now you're doing the really hard work of repairing
Speaker 1: something that was never there. And so those people they
Speaker 1: may be shocked by it, but they can just you know,
Speaker 1: they may still just say okay, I can do that
Speaker 1: for you. So giving people the opportunity to tell you
Speaker 1: no before deciding that they will say no is really
Speaker 1: important when you're setting boundaries. I really really like that.
Speaker 1: You know, think a common problem with a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are chronic people pleasers we'll call them, is
Speaker 1: that that they're new to them feels like they're an asshole,
Speaker 1: so that there's like there's nothing in between. You're either,
Speaker 1: you know, you're either a good person or you're an asshole.
Speaker 1: And if you say no, you're a nasshole. You know,
Speaker 1: what do you say to chronic people pleasers? Is there
Speaker 1: hope for them too? Yeah? I think that you know,
Speaker 1: at some point you have to be uncomfortable enough that
Speaker 1: you push past to put people pleasing, because if you
Speaker 1: continue to people please, you will continue to have those
Speaker 1: unhealthy relationships. And really the discomfort is a guide for
Speaker 1: the people who say, oh my gosh, I hate going
Speaker 1: over my parents' house on Sundays. You know there's a
Speaker 1: way out of this. So I guess you have to
Speaker 1: get tired enough of doing this thing that you really
Speaker 1: don't like to do. Because we have options, and the
Speaker 1: option may not be something that you want to do,
Speaker 1: but it could be something that you could do and
Speaker 1: feel better. Well, let's talk about if you're okay comfortable
Speaker 1: talking about your own personal journey to setting boundaries. You you,
Speaker 1: you come across to me as a really strong woman,
Speaker 1: a really strong you know, powerful, you know, like like
Speaker 1: you would tell me in a second if I said
Speaker 1: something you didn't want to answer, you'd be like, Scott,
Speaker 1: move on. I could just tell that already, Like I
Speaker 1: just I just met you, and all I'm getting that,
Speaker 1: you know, like I get it. It's like it's like
Speaker 1: you you almost like you you have a presence about
Speaker 1: you kind of commands respect and and and and I'm
Speaker 1: just wondering if you've always been like that? It has
Speaker 1: it been a real process for you? Did you ever
Speaker 1: used to be a people pleaser? I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: some of your own personal journey, if you don't mind
Speaker 1: telling me. Yeah, I think it certainly has been a process.
Speaker 1: And I think when you come across as assertive, you know,
Speaker 1: it is that fear of appearing mean, because sometimes, like
Speaker 1: let's say, if somebody mispronounces my name, which happens all
Speaker 1: the time, right, so if I say, oh, it's it's
Speaker 1: actually Nedra to Wap, some people will be like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, how can you correct me? And some people
Speaker 1: will just say, oh, okay, but you know, is that
Speaker 1: mean to correct someone when they're calling you, you know,
Speaker 1: Scootie instead of Scott, like do you all the time? Yeah?
Speaker 1: It's like, who's being mean here? How do we determine
Speaker 1: what's right in this situation? I think whoever says that
Speaker 1: it's me is the person who feels like it's being mean,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. And it's
Speaker 1: that same way with boundaries that sometimes you can say
Speaker 1: something very clearly, concisely, without any attitude, but just very straightforward,
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh my gosh, that was so cold,
Speaker 1: and I think you do have to develop some comfort
Speaker 1: around your boundaries. Are not going to be appealing to everyone.
Speaker 1: You know, me saying things to people like hey, my
Speaker 1: deadline for this is March fifteenth, that's not going to
Speaker 1: be appealing to the person who doesn't want to meet
Speaker 1: the deadline. That's going to sound very mean. So I
Speaker 1: can say it with a smile, I can, you know,
Speaker 1: I can send it an email at whatever, But if
Speaker 1: they want to perceive that as me, it will be
Speaker 1: mean and there's nothing I can do about that. I
Speaker 1: just know what needs to happen on this particular day.
Speaker 1: And so a lot of the work that I personally
Speaker 1: had to do with boundaries is really being less concerned
Speaker 1: with the reaction of others, because that is the part
Speaker 1: that used to get me like, oh my gosh, am
Speaker 1: I mean? And then I would go through this whole
Speaker 1: list of all of the nice things I've done for
Speaker 1: this person and all of the ways that I'm nice
Speaker 1: and all of these things, and then it would be like, well,
Speaker 1: doing this one thing that they really wanted to, you know,
Speaker 1: push back one. And sometimes, you know, it was something
Speaker 1: as simple as you know, I use an example in
Speaker 1: the book of in College, Like, you know, when you're
Speaker 1: in college and you're around your peers, you're sharing a
Speaker 1: lot of resources, so it's like your car is my car,
Speaker 1: my hat is your hat, like all of this sort
Speaker 1: of stuff. You're sharing resources. And sometimes I wasn't in
Speaker 1: a position to share resources, so I would say like, no,
Speaker 1: you can't borrow my car to dare or something like that,
Speaker 1: and people, oh my gosh, you're being mean, and it's
Speaker 1: like I have to go to class like is this
Speaker 1: mean or is this one of those things where it's
Speaker 1: like you don't like the boundary, and so just the
Speaker 1: confusion of what's mean what's nice? That part can really
Speaker 1: catch you up because now my criteria for me is,
Speaker 1: am I harming someone? Did I say something in a
Speaker 1: tone that was aggress I said? Did I make any
Speaker 1: derogatory comments? Did I use profanity? Did I tell them
Speaker 1: in a place that was in approach? So all of
Speaker 1: these things. So if I'm making a statement and someone
Speaker 1: doesn't like it, that is not necessarily mean. That is
Speaker 1: just them not liking the statement. When new laws come about,
Speaker 1: hey everybody has to wear a mask, or some are
Speaker 1: we oh my gosh, this is so mean. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: are people who think that's mean. But it's like is
Speaker 1: that mean or is that a boundary of safety? So
Speaker 1: it's like what are we arguing about here? Like, this
Speaker 1: is still what I need to tell you, and you
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to listen to it, but it would
Speaker 1: be really helpful if you did it. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: some of this is I know, at an intellectual level,
Speaker 1: is true, but it can be really hard sometimes when people,
Speaker 1: you know, I get a lot of like fan mail,
Speaker 1: you know, as I know you do of mail people
Speaker 1: just saying and the email starts off hey, we should
Speaker 1: be friends, you know, that's how it starts off, or like,
Speaker 1: you know, hey, we you know, we have so much
Speaker 1: in common, let's put something on the calendar. And now
Speaker 1: those are trigger words for me because it feels like
Speaker 1: they want my time, you know, without asking me, without
Speaker 1: asking me if I want to consent to it. It's
Speaker 1: you know, the way that that's worded is like, hey,
Speaker 1: we should be friends, or when can we put it
Speaker 1: on the calendar, as opposed to, hey, do you have time?
Speaker 1: Are you do you even want to talk to me?
Speaker 1: You know, do I have any choice in the matter.
Speaker 1: So I've been trying to learn how to respond to
Speaker 1: those kinds of re quests because I know that there
Speaker 1: they don't they mean well, I don't think they're you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think they're bad people, and and I'm and
Speaker 1: it's flattering, you know that someone thinks, you know, we
Speaker 1: should be friends, is you know, okay, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: not a bad thing. But I'm trying to learn how
Speaker 1: to respond at in a way that respects me and boundary,
Speaker 1: which is, well, no, no one's entitled to my time,
Speaker 1: you know, And even almost saying that sentence makes me
Speaker 1: feel like a little guilty, you know, so, so how
Speaker 1: does one kind of get past that that guilt? I
Speaker 1: think in the in the case of emails, what I
Speaker 1: found helpful is to have a template for different ways
Speaker 1: of saying no per request. So if it's for a
Speaker 1: meeting that you can't do, having that template, if it's
Speaker 1: for a pick your brain session that you can't have,
Speaker 1: Oh yes, hey, I have a quick question, but the
Speaker 1: question is really like an hour of your time, you know,
Speaker 1: just those sort of things. I think it makes sense
Speaker 1: to just have a template that says, you know, thank
Speaker 1: you for contacting me. I saw your request. It was
Speaker 1: really nice. However, I'm not taking meetings at this time
Speaker 1: because of other engage that I have, but thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Continue to follow my journey and listen to
Speaker 1: the podcast right well, you know whatever that is because
Speaker 1: other people don't know what we have going on. And
Speaker 1: that's something I've had to realize. Like I used to
Speaker 1: be like, why are all these people doing? And it's like,
Speaker 1: you know what, they don't know what I'm doing. That's true,
Speaker 1: they have no clue what by you know, what my
Speaker 1: family life is, like, what my work schedule is. Sometimes
Speaker 1: they're not even in the same country on the same
Speaker 1: time zone when they're sending me these emails that I
Speaker 1: might say, Oh my god, it's like, this is all
Speaker 1: my responsibility to really manage this boundary, and sometimes depending
Speaker 1: on what those things are, I just can't respond. I
Speaker 1: have some boundaries that I put up on Instagram. It's
Speaker 1: about twelve things, and you know, I kind of go through,
Speaker 1: you know, like you know what you might see on
Speaker 1: this page age, and what to expect, what I can do,
Speaker 1: what I can't do, and all of that stuff. People
Speaker 1: still request those things of me, but I've already put
Speaker 1: it out there that you know, if you're sending me
Speaker 1: a DM message and it's very detailed about your life
Speaker 1: and it sounds like something that would be best talked
Speaker 1: about with your own therapists, I cannot respond to that
Speaker 1: one Instagram. It's not me being me. It is me
Speaker 1: saying that this is a clinical issue, and I am
Speaker 1: a licensed therapist and I cannot interact with you in
Speaker 1: this sort of way because this is not the setting.
Speaker 1: I am not your therapist. If I were, I still
Speaker 1: couldn't interact with you based on my licensing. So there
Speaker 1: are so many things, so just being you know, really
Speaker 1: clear with people about you know, these are my boundaries.
Speaker 1: Like I get a lot of emails, and you know,
Speaker 1: I kind of funnel my emails and if I have time,
Speaker 1: I'll look at them. But you know, I like to read,
Speaker 1: and I like to watch TV, and I like to
Speaker 1: record my podcasts and see clients, and sometimes in doing
Speaker 1: all of those things, I may not have time to have,
Speaker 1: you know, meetings and pick your brain sessions and that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. One thing I found helpful, though, especially
Speaker 1: for the pick your brains, is to refer people to
Speaker 1: someone because what I've noticed, people will continuously send me
Speaker 1: the same email. Hey I reached out to you last week.
Speaker 1: Hey it's two days later, I haven't heard. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: here's a person who does this for a living, because
Speaker 1: that's I feel like coaching is separate from what I do.
Speaker 1: But here is a coach who loves to talk about
Speaker 1: helping people build practices or helping people establish an Instagram presence. Well,
Speaker 1: you know that's wonderful, and I've been doing I've been
Speaker 1: doing that as well. I have an assistant finally after
Speaker 1: many years, who helps me. I trust me, I needed one.
Speaker 1: She really helps me. I'll like forward the email to
Speaker 1: my assistant and say, please kindly respond and give them
Speaker 1: help them however you can. But you know, just like,
Speaker 1: do you ever, like in your own head, like ever
Speaker 1: think things that like you would never say to someone,
Speaker 1: but like, you know, I'll be honest. Sometimes some people
Speaker 1: like like a day later, if I don't respond, I'm like, hey,
Speaker 1: why don't you respond to my email yesterday? In my head,
Speaker 1: I curse at them. I'm being I'm being straight up
Speaker 1: on I'm being straight up honest because I believe vulnerability
Speaker 1: is really important. But in my head, I'm like mother,
Speaker 1: like like really like really like one day you you're
Speaker 1: that entitled in my time that like only one day
Speaker 1: has passed in't haven't responded. And they said, you know
Speaker 1: that's not cool. You didn't respond my email yesterday. And
Speaker 1: my initial reaction I was like I want to respond
Speaker 1: like okay you mother, blah blah blah blah. You know,
Speaker 1: go beat yourself now. But that's all in my head. Now,
Speaker 1: I would never say that to someone because I believe
Speaker 1: in kindness. I believe in kindness. But do you ever
Speaker 1: do you ever like immediately kind of is that normal?
Speaker 1: Is that a normal? Sort of like reaction in mine
Speaker 1: assholes for such thoughts. No, you're not an asshole. I
Speaker 1: think the same thoughts. I do get some emails that
Speaker 1: or dms. I would say dms that sometimes I have
Speaker 1: to process. I've gotten a few emails, but for me,
Speaker 1: it's mostly dms where I'm like, WHOA the level of
Speaker 1: audacity that this person has taken where it's just like,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes when people people will send me a
Speaker 1: mess say hey, I DMD you last week and you
Speaker 1: didn't respond? Are you too busy to pay attention to people?
Speaker 1: It's like, can you please look at how many dms
Speaker 1: I get? First off? Can I have some social media
Speaker 1: boundaries where I don't want to be on this platform
Speaker 1: all day answering dms. I do respond to some of them,
Speaker 1: but you know, it could have been a topic that
Speaker 1: I'm not at liberty to discuss with you because I'm
Speaker 1: not your therapist. And I think sometimes people may feel
Speaker 1: like because I am a therapist, that there is this
Speaker 1: open like I could ask anything at any time and
Speaker 1: this person has to give me an answer, and so right,
Speaker 1: it's not my job to fulfill that request for people,
Speaker 1: because I know that you know my role on Instagram
Speaker 1: is to give information to a vast amount of people
Speaker 1: and not to focus on five people. Right, So it's
Speaker 1: like I'm not trying to create like some situation where
Speaker 1: my time is spent like on these five people daily.
Speaker 1: It's like, no, I want to be able to create
Speaker 1: information for people in masses. Yeah. And the hardest one
Speaker 1: is when people say do play the guilt, Like they
Speaker 1: intentionally try to make you feel guilty, so they'll say, like,
Speaker 1: you know, it activates my Jewish my mother's Jewish guilt,
Speaker 1: you know in my head, you know, whenever someone says
Speaker 1: to me like, oh, you say in public, you come
Speaker 1: across as such a nice guy in public. Now I
Speaker 1: see what you're now, I see what you're really like,
Speaker 1: you know, like that that's the work that triggers me,
Speaker 1: Like I'm triggered trigger trick, you know what I'm saying. Like,
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to like get over that and just
Speaker 1: remind myself, look, Scott, like to be you can be
Speaker 1: a nice person and not give yourself up so much
Speaker 1: that you could get burnout and then you no longer
Speaker 1: have any will to live? Are you? Aren't you allowed
Speaker 1: to like enjoy your life a little bit? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I saw this weird movie once and I didn't really
Speaker 1: understand it while I was watching it, but after it
Speaker 1: I understood it as kind of a parallel to what
Speaker 1: therapists and influencers probably feel on Instagram, and they can
Speaker 1: give it to it or not. It's a movie and
Speaker 1: I cannot think of this guy's name, but it's with
Speaker 1: Jennifer from I can't even remember the whole thing, but
Speaker 1: this guy, he becomes popular, and the more popular he becomes,
Speaker 1: the less of himself that his girlfriend knew of. As
Speaker 1: you know, he becomes like this big figure and all
Speaker 1: of these people start to worship him, and he just
Speaker 1: becomes mean and they have to give him like their souls,
Speaker 1: and it just was a weird movie. And I was like,
Speaker 1: what is this movie about? And then I got home
Speaker 1: and I was like, this is the beast that we
Speaker 1: can feed if we want to. Like this, it became
Speaker 1: his whole life. He was consumed by this concept of
Speaker 1: what people created for him. And she was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know what you're doing here, Like this is too much.
Speaker 1: This is not what we signed up for. And I
Speaker 1: thought of it, like, if you really give yourself to
Speaker 1: social media, that's what it will be for you. You
Speaker 1: will have no life outside of that. And I realized
Speaker 1: that that's just not healthy. It's not healthy to answer
Speaker 1: every message that you It's not healthy to pick my
Speaker 1: brain sessions in all of those things. Like you have
Speaker 1: to figure out what's healthy for you because sometimes other
Speaker 1: people do not know that line you do. Yeah, so true. Now,
Speaker 1: was this the movie where he's like a poet and
Speaker 1: all these people like make their way into his house
Speaker 1: and then there's like there's like a fire. There's like
Speaker 1: a fire again. Yeah, you know, I saw that movie,
Speaker 1: and that movie that like gave me nightmares for like
Speaker 1: two weeks. I'm still so weird. Yeah, it was. It
Speaker 1: was one of it was literally it was one of
Speaker 1: the weirdest movies I think I've ever seen in my
Speaker 1: entire life. Yeah, I agree, And I kept thinking what
Speaker 1: could this mean? And the only thing I could I
Speaker 1: could liken it too, was like he really gave into
Speaker 1: his art, like he became the art. Yes, and it
Speaker 1: was like it was dangerous to him, it was dangerous
Speaker 1: to all the people around him. It was dangerous to
Speaker 1: the people who were worshiping him, like he has zero boundaries. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they started coming to his house and then he has
Speaker 1: like a bit, then he has like a baby or something.
Speaker 1: He has like a baby, and then his wife people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he gets the baby people and the wife like gets
Speaker 1: killed or goes away or something. It was so weird
Speaker 1: thinking about the scene where he is the babila and
Speaker 1: it's like, I need to not think about that right now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was like he gave them everything. That was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like, is this movie about like unhealthy boundaries.
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think you're right. I think
Speaker 1: it's a really brilliant insight. I think it's a really
Speaker 1: brilliant insight. Yeah, because I didn't know what to make
Speaker 1: of that movie and now I do, so thank you.
Speaker 1: Maybe that'll stop the nightmare. But yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: what happens, Like you give everything to it, and it's
Speaker 1: like that is not healthy. It's possible, and it's like
Speaker 1: you don't want anybody to like take your baby. That's right,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. Was well, you know, you talk in
Speaker 1: the book about the costs. I mean, have a whole
Speaker 1: chapter on the cost of not having healthy boundaries, and
Speaker 1: that what we're talking about. You know, and you also
Speaker 1: burnout being a big cost being a big one. But
Speaker 1: then you also to talk about the benefits of setting boundaries,
Speaker 1: and I like those. I'd rather talk about the benefits.
Speaker 1: You say, sleep better, experience, less burnout, healthy relationships, less stress.
Speaker 1: I was like, sign me up, sign me up, feel
Speaker 1: more joyful, benefit from the short and long term value
Speaker 1: of setting them. I mean Devil's advocate for a second.
Speaker 1: Someone who's like a chronic people pleaser might read that
Speaker 1: and be like, well, that all seems so selfish. You know,
Speaker 1: what do you say to someone like that? You know
Speaker 1: says that, Yeah, I get that. Sometimes, you know again
Speaker 1: on Instagram, the comments will be like this is the
Speaker 1: meanest thing I've ever heard. It's like, you know, tell
Speaker 1: your friend that you're you know, not able to talk
Speaker 1: right now, but you'll call them back later. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure it's like the people please are saying like this
Speaker 1: is the worst thing you could say to a person,
Speaker 1: and it's like that you'll call them back like that's
Speaker 1: the worst thing you could say. You know, like I've
Speaker 1: been cussed out by a stranger before. I used to
Speaker 1: work in a detox facility. I U should have seen
Speaker 1: the way I was cussed out over cigarette brakes that
Speaker 1: I think was pretty mean. I don't think saying to someone, hey,
Speaker 1: I'll call you back later is the worst thing ever.
Speaker 1: But when you are a chronic people please or saying
Speaker 1: anything to anyone just seems like, oh my gosh. And
Speaker 1: I used to be there. I used to be a
Speaker 1: people pleaser where it was like what would they do?
Speaker 1: What will they say? Maybe I should lower the boundary?
Speaker 1: How do I say this in a whisper so they
Speaker 1: don't really hear me and have to, you know, really
Speaker 1: do what I'm asking, like all of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: But it did leave me burnt out. It left me
Speaker 1: very frustrated, It left me resentful, and a host of
Speaker 1: other things. You know, we know that mental health impacts
Speaker 1: your physical health. We know that mental health impacts so
Speaker 1: many things in our lives. I mean just so many
Speaker 1: somatic things, like you know, if your mental health is
Speaker 1: not in the right place, you get sicker, easier, you
Speaker 1: get you know, like all of these things. But yet
Speaker 1: when it comes to really advocating for ourselves, it's like
Speaker 1: there must be some easier way other than setting a boundary.
Speaker 1: It's like, what's the easier alternative? It's like, build a
Speaker 1: new person. I don't know, like, there really isn't an
Speaker 1: alternative to hey, I cannot babysit your kids today. The
Speaker 1: alternative is to do it and to be frustrated that
Speaker 1: this person has asked you this in the middle of
Speaker 1: you having to do something else. That's the alternative frustration.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, this really hits home. You know. You wrote
Speaker 1: like you know signs that you need to start saying boundaries,
Speaker 1: and one was that one was like you you dream
Speaker 1: of just getting away and just quitting everything. I have
Speaker 1: that fantasy all the time. Can I admit that? Allow
Speaker 1: to admit that I have that fantasy all like just
Speaker 1: like being like, you know what I'm I changed? Hey,
Speaker 1: everyone Scott changed careers. He's done, He's done. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's not health beach. Oh that sounds nice. Oh
Speaker 1: that sounds don't don't don't put ideas in my head.
Speaker 1: Don't put ideas in my head. Well, I think a
Speaker 1: little bit of fantasy is okay. But I think if
Speaker 1: your go to is just to not be here daily,
Speaker 1: you wake up dreading your life and dreading your day,
Speaker 1: dreading in our acting with people. Yeah, getting I mean,
Speaker 1: just like, oh my gosh, if I just disappeared today
Speaker 1: like that like living in that fantasy of life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not healthy because you can create a new reality
Speaker 1: and it does have to be one that you want
Speaker 1: to escape from and one that you want to leave.
Speaker 1: It can be one that you actually enjoy. And a
Speaker 1: lot of that word is you figuring out in which
Speaker 1: areas do you need the boundaries? Like you know, when
Speaker 1: you mentioned email, is it like I'm going to stop
Speaker 1: checking my email because people keep emailing these things? Or
Speaker 1: is it I need an assistant to check my emails
Speaker 1: or I need to delete these types of emails when
Speaker 1: they come. Like what are what are the boundaries that
Speaker 1: you can put in place without saying I can never
Speaker 1: look at my email again. Well, I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's a solution, but perhaps there are some other things
Speaker 1: that could be done. So this process is less chaotic
Speaker 1: and frustrating for you because you know, I think it's
Speaker 1: something that has to be done. But do you have
Speaker 1: to do it? No, you have an assistant now you
Speaker 1: know you don't have to do it. Absolutely, So do
Speaker 1: you want to be my first guest on the Coconut podcast?
Speaker 1: Since I'm changing my career, you don't have to dance
Speaker 1: that you don't have to dance that, right, what are
Speaker 1: the no, absolutely agree with you, And I mean I
Speaker 1: still I still love helping people. And that's the dilemma,
Speaker 1: that's the real dilemmas, because I love helping people. But
Speaker 1: I have to come to terms with the fact that
Speaker 1: I can't save the world. And that's it. That's just
Speaker 1: what I have to realize. It's a it's and just
Speaker 1: accepting that, you know. Like I'm looking out the window
Speaker 1: right now, I'm seeing a homeless person dancing and screaming
Speaker 1: and they're clearly not in contact with the reality right now,
Speaker 1: and my heart, like I just want to run out
Speaker 1: there and save this person's life, you know, and I
Speaker 1: need to, Like I'm trying to learn how to like
Speaker 1: overcook because I'm such a sensitive person, you know, Like
Speaker 1: how can I like not take on everyone's pain, you know?
Speaker 1: And I can't be alone in this, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that is the the heart of the helper,
Speaker 1: right to want to help every everything and everybody that
Speaker 1: we do feel like I can do it all. I
Speaker 1: can help everyone, and I you know, I dealt with that.
Speaker 1: I have a private practice, and I certainly used to
Speaker 1: have Oh my gosh, so many clients, like I used
Speaker 1: to see clients at six eight m to five pm,
Speaker 1: like so many people, and it just got to a
Speaker 1: point where I'm like, I can't do this, Like there
Speaker 1: has to be other therapists in the world who can
Speaker 1: help people. It can't it can't be me, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to wake up with a headache, Like
Speaker 1: this is not a healthy way of existing. I can't
Speaker 1: help people with every single issue. And I've had people
Speaker 1: get upset with me, like you know, I've had people
Speaker 1: who say, you know, I'm you know, I'm coming off
Speaker 1: whatever drug and I really want to work with you,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm not a substance abuse counselor. I
Speaker 1: don't feel comfortable helping people who are coming off certain
Speaker 1: drugs because there is a medical thing that I would
Speaker 1: need to know it. I don't know that. And so
Speaker 1: it's not about us being you know, like intertwined, you know, like,
Speaker 1: oh we think the same and this sort of thing.
Speaker 1: It's like to me, it's like a health thing, and
Speaker 1: so I can't you know, I literally cannot help you
Speaker 1: in good conscience because I'm not sure if I will
Speaker 1: actually be helpful, Like you need to find somebody who
Speaker 1: could be really helpful for you. And that's where, you know,
Speaker 1: it makes me more comfortable knowing that there are just
Speaker 1: certain things I can't do, even with the you know,
Speaker 1: the people who say can you mentor me? Can you pick?
Speaker 1: You know, there are certain capacities that I don't have.
Speaker 1: Like I think, if you're going to step into those things,
Speaker 1: you should be serious about it and you should have
Speaker 1: some protocol and experience, and it's like I don't. So
Speaker 1: I feel really comfortable saying I cannot help you here
Speaker 1: because I literally don't have the tools. This is my
Speaker 1: lane right here, and that is what I'm operating in.
Speaker 1: I love that. And also just sometimes even if you
Speaker 1: are the right person for the job, there's just so
Speaker 1: much of you, you know, Like I had just such
Speaker 1: a law I took basically, I took on too many
Speaker 1: clients and last week, you know, I just was wiped
Speaker 1: out like I've never been in my entire life. There
Speaker 1: was just too many. It was. It was that six
Speaker 1: am to five pm for four street days, you know.
Speaker 1: And I'm learning about myself that well, I I have limits.
Speaker 1: I need I mean, I need to kind of I'm
Speaker 1: not super Man, you know. Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: more Spider Man without the without the hand web thing.
Speaker 1: So I want to try to press the thing and
Speaker 1: it doesn't come out anyway. That was a bad analogy.
Speaker 1: But the point is I'm grasping to help everyone. But
Speaker 1: it's just I have I have limits, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think therapists, Uh, can we just give some love
Speaker 1: to therapists right now? Can we just do that? Can
Speaker 1: we just do that? You know a lot of people
Speaker 1: are suffering now. But you know, God bless therapists for
Speaker 1: taking on so much, so many people are suffering right
Speaker 1: now and giving so much of their time, you know,
Speaker 1: to that during this global pandemic. You know, but they're
Speaker 1: human too, you know, they're human too. Yeah. I had
Speaker 1: to make a decision, you know, about a year or
Speaker 1: so to go to not take any more clients because
Speaker 1: things where I started writing a book, I started you know,
Speaker 1: doing some content creator like doing a bunch of stuff,
Speaker 1: and I was just like, I don't have the space
Speaker 1: to have the clients that I already have, which is
Speaker 1: fool and take new people. Like when you get to
Speaker 1: a point where you can't even see people regularly. I
Speaker 1: think I'm doing a disservice, So like I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't know when I can see you again. That's what
Speaker 1: my schedule looks like because I'm already committed to these things,
Speaker 1: and so for me, it's just a matter of like
Speaker 1: that is the boundary. My schedule is the boundary. Like
Speaker 1: if I add you somewhere else, that's taken away from
Speaker 1: my family time, and that's not fair. If I add
Speaker 1: you on this schedule, that's taken from taken away from
Speaker 1: a client who already needs my services. So just being
Speaker 1: really aware of what I'm already doing before adding more. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think before it was just like people want to
Speaker 1: see you keep taking them, you keep taking them, And
Speaker 1: then it got to a point where it's like I
Speaker 1: my clients couldn't get an appointment. It's like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I've been trying to get on your schedule for a month.
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is not you need weekly therapy. So
Speaker 1: I need to have some limits so that I can
Speaker 1: serve you properly and that you know that is what's
Speaker 1: fair to you. Like you need weekly therapy, you don't
Speaker 1: need monthly therapy. And so that is an indicator for
Speaker 1: me that I need to cut back. Yeah, I'm so
Speaker 1: glad that you did that fear on self care and
Speaker 1: as well as helping others better. Do you you still
Speaker 1: take your you still take clients, not new clients, but
Speaker 1: you still see your older clients, you know, your regular Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I still see some of my older clients and people
Speaker 1: who come back. So if you see me anytime in
Speaker 1: the past, people, you know, people show up five years later.
Speaker 1: So I still see some of those people. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I'm like with clients, I'm full. So like I you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's really no space for more clients. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think the beautiful thing is I have a group
Speaker 1: practice and so there are eight are the therapists who
Speaker 1: these people can see. And that was really important for
Speaker 1: me to create a space that I know these other
Speaker 1: people and how they practice, and so I am turning
Speaker 1: them over to you know, great people to say, you know,
Speaker 1: this person is able to help you in this way,
Speaker 1: and I trust that they can do that because I
Speaker 1: realize that I can't be the person seeing everyone just
Speaker 1: because I discover other things that I like to do,
Speaker 1: and so to have room for those things, I do
Speaker 1: have to cut back in some areas. I love that
Speaker 1: so what are the six types of Are there six
Speaker 1: types of boundaries? Is that true? Yes? Are you're gonna?
Speaker 1: I don't know them by heart? Let me think. I
Speaker 1: love that people do that too, they ask me questions
Speaker 1: for my book. Intellectual, physical? What are the other three?
Speaker 1: I don't I don't remember off the top of my
Speaker 1: head either. Yes, I mean, look, I feel better that
Speaker 1: I don't have no he the top head if you
Speaker 1: don't know the top. But look, we got three out there,
Speaker 1: we have three. Gosh, let's see here. We'll come back
Speaker 1: to this question. Okay, Yes, So I feel like with
Speaker 1: that chapter, what I was doing is kind of breaking
Speaker 1: out the different areas in which we can have boundaries,
Speaker 1: because so often we only think of like one type
Speaker 1: of boundaries. So here we go, sexual, intellectual, physical, emotional, time,
Speaker 1: and material. Yes, those are the six, and so I
Speaker 1: think those are the key areas where we need boundaries.
Speaker 1: And so often we forget that there is more than
Speaker 1: one way to have a boundary. We think like the
Speaker 1: only way to have a boundary is to say no
Speaker 1: to someone, and that's just one way to have a boundary.
Speaker 1: And it's important to remember that in multiple areas of
Speaker 1: your life. You can have boundaries. You can have boundaries
Speaker 1: with your physical space. You can have like you mentioned
Speaker 1: with the email, boundaries with your time, boundaries with your possessions,
Speaker 1: those material things, so when people are, you know, taking
Speaker 1: your things and not returning them, like, those are all
Speaker 1: boundaries you can have. And what I really love about
Speaker 1: the book is for all of those I have examples
Speaker 1: of all of those things, and I have these very
Speaker 1: clear scripts of what to say when a boundary is violated,
Speaker 1: how to you know what to say or what to
Speaker 1: do when a boundary is violated. But I think it's
Speaker 1: important that people have as much information possible. I feel
Speaker 1: like there was so much information putting into the book.
Speaker 1: And it's so funny because I think the chapter you
Speaker 1: mentioned is the first first three. I think that's like
Speaker 1: chapter three maybe, And it's so interesting because that is
Speaker 1: the first part that I wrote, and I feel like
Speaker 1: those later chapters I read a bit more of. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you felt like that when you when
Speaker 1: you wrote your book, but that wasn't in the proposal,
Speaker 1: so it was like, oh, I wrote that like two
Speaker 1: years ago, and the rest of the stuff is like
Speaker 1: newer and fresher. It's like, oh, yeah, oh definitely, But
Speaker 1: still like the whole book once it comes out is
Speaker 1: not fresh anymore. Like people don't know that. People don't
Speaker 1: know that. They stick you on like a thousand podcasts,
Speaker 1: and then you're like supposed to still like be excited
Speaker 1: about your book. So in chapter four when you said
Speaker 1: the sentences of so, it's like I said that, what
Speaker 1: did it say? I don't know what I meant? Can
Speaker 1: you give me context? It's true, it's true. The boundary
Speaker 1: is give me context. Yeah, yeah, it's so true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so true. Is it? Because you put your heart
Speaker 1: and soul into something for years and then it's like
Speaker 1: a year production process, you know, til it finally comes
Speaker 1: out and then you're like, oh, oh, yeah, I wrote
Speaker 1: that book. That's right. I will say that it was
Speaker 1: really helpful about a month ago to do the audio book.
Speaker 1: But again, I feel like those later chapters are fresher
Speaker 1: in my head at the the beginning chapter. So ask
Speaker 1: me about chapter fourteen. No, I know, I know. I'm like,
Speaker 1: that's the last part I've met I mean Iria. And
Speaker 1: it's always interesting because I think of this with like singers,
Speaker 1: I'm like, how do they remember all of these songs.
Speaker 1: How do they remember like the lyrics to all of
Speaker 1: these things, like and can sing it over and over,
Speaker 1: Like I would just be like, I am not singing
Speaker 1: this song anymore, I know. I mean, I can't even
Speaker 1: I can't like yeah, I mean I've gone to many
Speaker 1: concerts where like people like sing the you know, blah blah,
Speaker 1: and the people they'll be like, I'm not gonna sing
Speaker 1: that anymore. I'm done. I'm done with that song. I've
Speaker 1: seen that in concerts before, where the singer was like,
Speaker 1: no more, hey Jude, no more hate Jude. It's like
Speaker 1: I don't ever want to sing it again. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's a that's an interesting reaction to writing
Speaker 1: a book, Like you wrote it and you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm done. You're not done, you're just starting. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you have to continue to talk about it and it's
Speaker 1: very like I wrote it yesterday sort of way. So yeah,
Speaker 1: So it's become a whole thing, the whole tour, and
Speaker 1: you know everything, well, you've you know, you've really built
Speaker 1: up such an amazing following. I think you've over perhaps
Speaker 1: over eighty thousand Instagram followers. Am I making that up?
Speaker 1: I feel like something eight hundred, eight hundred thousand, eight
Speaker 1: hundred thousand, Is that right? I mean, yes, Holy mother, Like, okay,
Speaker 1: now that's that's like I've got six thousand. Okay, you know,
Speaker 1: but look, I mean that is just amazing and and
Speaker 1: it's quality content. You know. So there's some other people
Speaker 1: I see with eight hundred thousand where I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't know about that person's what those fans are seeing
Speaker 1: in that person. But with you, I see what they're
Speaker 1: seeing in you. So it's it's so, I mean, I
Speaker 1: have my ideas of why it's it's it strikes such
Speaker 1: a nerve, But but what do you think it is? Like,
Speaker 1: what do you think it is? You know? I part
Speaker 1: of it is I don't think I sugarcoat stuff. I
Speaker 1: just kind of like put it out there, like you know,
Speaker 1: if your parents weren't here for you, you you probably feel
Speaker 1: this and that this is based off of you know,
Speaker 1: of course, my professional work. Things I've experienced, things I've
Speaker 1: you know, witnessed other people experience, and I think the
Speaker 1: the this it's it's so real and it's like a
Speaker 1: gut punch that people are like, you know, I always
Speaker 1: get the comment of are you in my head? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, but I am in mind. I am
Speaker 1: constantly in the heads of you know, twenty people a week,
Speaker 1: you know, So I'm like, yeah, I get it. I
Speaker 1: hear that. And so often as therapists, we don't do
Speaker 1: as much talking as we do listening, and so I'm
Speaker 1: you know, I have some ideas about what's happening and
Speaker 1: why it's happening, and some of that is just for
Speaker 1: me to keep to myself, and some of it is
Speaker 1: for me to share. And this is just a really
Speaker 1: big way of me being able to share it because
Speaker 1: everybody won't go to therapy, whether it's you know, a
Speaker 1: financial barrier or just you know, some stigma attached to
Speaker 1: it availability, all these sorts of reasons. But I think
Speaker 1: a lot of the tools are still very helpful and
Speaker 1: when people see things in a certain way, especially you know,
Speaker 1: I post a lot about family relationships, and we don't
Speaker 1: get that much information on dysfunctional families, to the point
Speaker 1: where people feel like they are the only person in
Speaker 1: the world with an alcoholic parent, they are the only
Speaker 1: person in the world who experience emotional neglect because nobody
Speaker 1: talks about it. When in actuality is probably fifty percent
Speaker 1: of your classroom, right, it's like no one's talking about it.
Speaker 1: And so because I'm putting words to that and people
Speaker 1: are seeing it, it's like, oh my gosh, like there's
Speaker 1: more than one of us, like you're one. And then
Speaker 1: you see these likes and it's like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: like all of these people identify. It's like yes, yes,
Speaker 1: there's so many people with you know, these these very
Speaker 1: common things that we don't talk about. So so true.
Speaker 1: That's you know, that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 1: You're you're kind of so relatable to common human uh,
Speaker 1: common human needs that are that a lot of us
Speaker 1: that's going unfulfilled in a lot of us. I want
Speaker 1: to just return to your book a second. With this
Speaker 1: particular point, you talk about the terms between porous boundaries
Speaker 1: and rigid boundaries. Can you elaborate what the difference is there?
Speaker 1: So porest boundaries are basically passive boundaries, meaning you don't
Speaker 1: really have any right. So people are doing all of
Speaker 1: these things and it's just happening. Maybe you have an
Speaker 1: idea of what could or should happen, but you're not
Speaker 1: clearly stating anything, so people are having their way with you.
Speaker 1: Rigid boundaries are building walls and being really aggressive in
Speaker 1: our attempt to set boundaries. So it could be I
Speaker 1: never let people come over my house. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I bet never ever, or do you want people to
Speaker 1: come over that you enjoy spending time with, Like that
Speaker 1: would be the healthy boundary, and then you know, the
Speaker 1: poorest boundary would be having no boundaries on who can
Speaker 1: come over when and how they use your stuff and
Speaker 1: those sorts of things, and so right in the middle
Speaker 1: there is healthy and with rigid it's just the extreme
Speaker 1: of never ever people can't be trusted, and with poors
Speaker 1: it is the other extreme of always do whatever you like. Yes,
Speaker 1: because you could see someone going from like a people
Speaker 1: pleaser to like no more mister nice guy and become
Speaker 1: like an just like go to extreme extreme opposite. And
Speaker 1: I don't think you advocate for any extremes. You advocate
Speaker 1: for healthy balance, is what I'm mean. Yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 1: I think our boundaries are going to be different in
Speaker 1: relationships with different people because all the relationships don't require
Speaker 1: the same level of boundaries. Like you may come over
Speaker 1: my house and naturally take your shoes off. It's nothing
Speaker 1: I have to say to you, But for this other
Speaker 1: person I have to say to them, Hey, when you
Speaker 1: come in, can you take your shoes off? So these
Speaker 1: are going to be different boundaries. But maybe the boundary
Speaker 1: I have with you is, hey, can you stop yelling
Speaker 1: at my ear? I don't know, but have I been
Speaker 1: doing that for No? No, not at all? No no, no, no,
Speaker 1: not at all. But I think it's going to be
Speaker 1: different for everyone. And so sometimes with rigid boundaries, we
Speaker 1: like to place the boundaries across the board. I never
Speaker 1: give people battle water, and it's like, not even not
Speaker 1: even your grandmother who's appeared like, come on, have some
Speaker 1: flexibility here. So it's it's not an ever, it's not always,
Speaker 1: it's more of a sometimes depending on the person, I
Speaker 1: could see what could happen sort of thing. Good good,
Speaker 1: I like that. But but something that you argue is
Speaker 1: very important is to uh, not only communicate your boundary,
Speaker 1: but you enforce it. You enforce it through action. Can
Speaker 1: you give our listeners an example of what that would
Speaker 1: look like and why that action piece is so important? Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if you say to someone I will be able
Speaker 1: to help you plan your party, I think you have
Speaker 1: to really not help them plan their party, Like if
Speaker 1: you jump in and start planning. You didn't really set
Speaker 1: a boundary. You just said something and then you renegno
Speaker 1: what you actually said. So in the future, if this
Speaker 1: person has a request, they can continue to ask this
Speaker 1: thing and expect that you'll do it. I meant my kid,
Speaker 1: my daughter did that this morning. I mean, she was like,
Speaker 1: can I have a lollipop? Can I have a lollipop?
Speaker 1: Can I have a lollipop? If you give me a lollipop,
Speaker 1: I'll stop asking for a lollipop? And I said, okay, here,
Speaker 1: here's a lot of play, you know, so she knows
Speaker 1: that I really don't have a boundary on this lollipop,
Speaker 1: which has been proven thousands of times with these lollipops.
Speaker 1: But today I got rid of the lollipops, so she
Speaker 1: can't ask me. I was gonna I was going to
Speaker 1: ask for yeah. But I think it's the same way
Speaker 1: with adults. They know that if they continue to ask
Speaker 1: that you'll give the in and so if you really
Speaker 1: want it to be a no, you have to say
Speaker 1: no and like really stop. And sometimes we have to
Speaker 1: deal with the consequence of the other person's behavior, Like
Speaker 1: with a kid, they're likely have a tantrum, like so
Speaker 1: their manipulation strategy is like, oh, I can't have it.
Speaker 1: I'll fall out right here. And most you know, most
Speaker 1: of the time you're like, oh my gosh, let me
Speaker 1: just do it. But you know, there are those occasions
Speaker 1: when you're like, you know what, hey, your tantrum, I'm
Speaker 1: still not going to do it. And adults have tantrums too,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's they hang up on you, they
Speaker 1: don't call you back, they yell, they you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: they cry and kick, just like you know, just like
Speaker 1: kids sometimes. So you know, you have to decide how
Speaker 1: to deal with the consequence of you know, their behavior.
Speaker 1: Do you give into it. Do you give them the
Speaker 1: lollipop or say yes to the thing they're requesting, or
Speaker 1: do you say no, I'm gonna hold to my boundary.
Speaker 1: I really don't want to do this. Good. Good, you
Speaker 1: were really you're you're really like outlining all the steps here,
Speaker 1: and there's one final step I'd like to talk about
Speaker 1: because I thought it was so valuable when I was
Speaker 1: reading your book, and that was depersonalization. You know, it's
Speaker 1: so easy to take to take it personally and think
Speaker 1: you're responsible, you know, when you say no, and then
Speaker 1: let's say, something bad happens to that person, right, How
Speaker 1: do you not think to yourself that you were somehow like, oh,
Speaker 1: I could have done different, you know, I could have
Speaker 1: said yes and be in their life better. Instead I
Speaker 1: said no, and then they went off and they did
Speaker 1: this and that, and then that happened, and that happened,
Speaker 1: chain of events. How can you depersonalize some of this
Speaker 1: not own other people outcomes? I think sometimes we feel
Speaker 1: like we have this med magical power to dictate how
Speaker 1: things will turn out, and we really don't. We can't
Speaker 1: determine what will happen to a person. If we say no,
Speaker 1: what will happen to a person? We're not able to
Speaker 1: do things for them. And I find that the most
Speaker 1: personalizing people are the people who are codependent, the people
Speaker 1: who are enmeshed, and people who come from abusive backgrounds.
Speaker 1: Because you have been taught that if you don't say
Speaker 1: yes to this, this person will not be able to
Speaker 1: do it without you. If you don't say yes to this,
Speaker 1: this person will you know, they'll go and you know,
Speaker 1: maybe use drugs or hurt somebody else or do all
Speaker 1: these other things because you didn't save them. And really,
Speaker 1: we don't have that power over people. And our no
Speaker 1: should not determine if somebody is willing to save their
Speaker 1: own life. Our no should not determine if they become
Speaker 1: destructive or not. Right. Yeah, these are not things that
Speaker 1: we are responsible for, even when we feel like we are.
Speaker 1: It's not true. This is a that's a hard pill
Speaker 1: for a lot of people to swallow if they're so
Speaker 1: used to thinking differently about it. So this book, uh,
Speaker 1: this book can really change a lot of people's lives. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: thank you, Nedra. And I also want to point out
Speaker 1: that I pronounced her name correctly on the first tray.
Speaker 1: Yes you did, Yes, you did. Great job. Funny story
Speaker 1: when I lived with my mom and I would give
Speaker 1: my phone number out to people. If someone called and
Speaker 1: mispronounced my name, she'd be like, oh, she doesn't live here.
Speaker 1: And I would be like this so and so called
Speaker 1: and so and so called. She's like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: And then I see the person he's like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: called your house. Who did you ask for I asked
Speaker 1: for Nedrum turn it. My mother would tell me if
Speaker 1: you call, because she would say, you didn't ask for me.
Speaker 1: She's like nope, no, no her, that's her boundary. That's
Speaker 1: that's her boundary, right, she's like, pronounce my baby name
Speaker 1: correctly or okay, girl, like please give them a few chances.
Speaker 1: That's a rigid that's a rigid boundary. Yeah. Oh man, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for this wonderful interview today. And
Speaker 1: let's let's give a you know, a shout out to
Speaker 1: to uh, to both of our mutual editors, Mary Anne.
Speaker 1: Let's see. Yes, she's a wonderful editor and I know that,
Speaker 1: like she would be giddy to hear that we both
Speaker 1: gave her a shout out on the podcast. So let's
Speaker 1: let's do that for a second. Yeah, she is. She
Speaker 1: is amazing and nice and really enthused about the work.
Speaker 1: Like she really likes the work of what we're doing.
Speaker 1: Like she was right away like, oh, you should be
Speaker 1: on this podcast, like his work is, Like she really
Speaker 1: likes what we're doing. It's not just a job. It
Speaker 1: is certainly a passion. Agreed. Agreed, sy'all in this interview
Speaker 1: like I do with lots of guests, with reading one
Speaker 1: of my favorite quotes from their book, so you said,
Speaker 1: set your boundaries knowing that you are improving your life,
Speaker 1: not harming others. Thank you so much. For coming on
Speaker 1: my podcast today and I wish you all the best
Speaker 1: with the rest of your book tour. Thank you, thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. If
Speaker 1: you'd like to react in some way to something you heard,
Speaker 1: I encourage you to join in on the discussion at
Speaker 1: the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: Thanks for being such a great supporter of the show,
Speaker 1: and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity.