WEBVTT - Lying

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, I'm Dessa, and this is deeply human why you

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<v Speaker 1>do the things you do? So let me ask you

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<v Speaker 1>a question. Have you been on any of these online

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<v Speaker 1>dating sites? Yes? And have you been on one of

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<v Speaker 1>those that you have to enter your age and wait? Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>And how how honest I would say? I would say,

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<v Speaker 1>you're right? Mostly I probably I probably shaved off three

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<v Speaker 1>pounds on that day. Yeah, And you probably said, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I used to be three pounds less, like just a

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<v Speaker 1>few months ago. It just so happened that now when

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<v Speaker 1>I'm filling it up is after the holidays. So you're

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<v Speaker 1>in my head, Dan, You're in my head. That's Dan Arielli,

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<v Speaker 1>a professor of psychology and behavioral economics at Duke University

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<v Speaker 1>in North Carolina, calling me out in a lie. High

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<v Speaker 1>stakes lies have all sorts of consequences. Perjurors are imprisoned,

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<v Speaker 1>slanderers are sued. In the eighteen hundreds, liars and gossips

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<v Speaker 1>in Scotland could be punished by being forced to wear

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<v Speaker 1>a scolds bridle, a middle cage worn over the head

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<v Speaker 1>with a painful bit to stop the tone from moving.

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<v Speaker 1>But little lies they sometimes feel almost obligatory, like if

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<v Speaker 1>your coworker Andy asks do you like my haircut? And

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<v Speaker 1>you say yes, It adds a new shortness to the

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<v Speaker 1>ends of it. Un Lying to children can be a

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<v Speaker 1>joyful community activity. Good news, little Maxie. There's someone who

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<v Speaker 1>would like to buy your old teeth. She's nocturnal, she

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<v Speaker 1>could fly, but she deals exclusively with unconscious clientele, So

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<v Speaker 1>you will just have to trust that you are receiving

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<v Speaker 1>market rate, b Lie detector tests, child psychology, moral vigilance,

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<v Speaker 1>bad haircuts. We're here to explore why lying is a

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<v Speaker 1>developmental milestone for toddlers, but maybe a slippery slope for you.

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<v Speaker 1>Honestly is a really good thing, and most people acknowledge

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<v Speaker 1>it and they want to be honest. But in the

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<v Speaker 1>day to day basis, we have lots of other motivation

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<v Speaker 1>that play out as well. So motivation to be honest

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<v Speaker 1>is one of them. Motivation to gain money is an

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<v Speaker 1>under one. Motivation to have our political party be successful,

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<v Speaker 1>motivation to decrease global warming, motivation to whatever whatever I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>There's lots of them. Dan is the author of a

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<v Speaker 1>book called The Honest Truth About Dishonesty. How we lie

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<v Speaker 1>to everyone, especially ourselves. Most of us want to be honest,

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<v Speaker 1>but we also want to find love, we want financial security,

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<v Speaker 1>we want the best for our kids, and not all

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<v Speaker 1>of these desires are compatible all of the time. The

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<v Speaker 1>team here at deeply human. So let's they did some

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<v Speaker 1>lives from friends and colleagues and strangers on the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>And here's one that I found very clever. So my

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<v Speaker 1>senior year of college, I had a truly all consuming

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<v Speaker 1>crush on the teaching assistant for the photography seminar that

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<v Speaker 1>I was taking, and near the end of the year

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<v Speaker 1>I was applying for jobs. I got a bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>professors to write me letters of recommendation, and once I

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<v Speaker 1>had them all, I was like, you know, this is

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<v Speaker 1>a really easy way to get people to give me

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<v Speaker 1>a bunch of compliments. So I told the t A

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<v Speaker 1>that I needed an additional letter of recommendation from him,

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<v Speaker 1>even though I did not. Our liar Allison found a

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<v Speaker 1>way to extract two full written pages of compliments from

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<v Speaker 1>her crush. If you could somehow force a letter of

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<v Speaker 1>wreck out of someone in your life now, in the

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<v Speaker 1>same circumstances, who would it be? Oh my god, um

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<v Speaker 1>Curtis sit and felt maybe me too. She's the best

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<v Speaker 1>God is my favorite mort how did you get so smart?

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<v Speaker 1>And just one life? I have absolutely idea, but every

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<v Speaker 1>time I read one of her books, I'm just like,

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<v Speaker 1>every sentence is perfect. How listener if you're unfamiliar. Curtis

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<v Speaker 1>Sittenfeld is the name of a best selling fiction writer.

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<v Speaker 1>Highly recommend her short stories. All right back to Dan

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<v Speaker 1>Arielli are lying expert on how we conceptualize dishonesty. So

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<v Speaker 1>in general, when we think about this honesty, we think

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<v Speaker 1>about people as being either good open. We tend to

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<v Speaker 1>consider honesty as a character trait, a fixed feature, like

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<v Speaker 1>I am good at languages and bad at directions. I

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<v Speaker 1>prefer cheap milk chocolate to the fancy dark stuff, and

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<v Speaker 1>I am honest. But this kind of thinking can cause

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<v Speaker 1>problems because if we consider our honesty as intrinsic and constant,

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<v Speaker 1>then it's like a tattoo. It's permanently part of who

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<v Speaker 1>we are. And with that attitude, we might get lax

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<v Speaker 1>in policing our actual behavior. And we're really good at

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<v Speaker 1>preserving the idea of our ourselves as honest people even

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<v Speaker 1>while we're telling a lie. Imagine that you're late for

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<v Speaker 1>meeting some friends, right, you could say, oh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I left too late, or I didn't check my watch

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<v Speaker 1>or something like that, or you could say the subway

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<v Speaker 1>was too busy. You have a motivation to lie, and

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<v Speaker 1>what our amazing brain can do is to allow us

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<v Speaker 1>to rationalize things that are not exactly perfect. So you

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<v Speaker 1>can go to your friends and say, oh, yes, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the traffic was terrible. Now the traffic is thats not

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<v Speaker 1>really the traffic that is terrible, but the traffic was

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<v Speaker 1>not great. So you basically add this up and in

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<v Speaker 1>your mind the moment you finished telling this lie, you're

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<v Speaker 1>not a liar. You just slightly exaggerated. As we tell

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<v Speaker 1>more and more lies of a certain type, we get

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<v Speaker 1>more and more used to it, and by the end

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<v Speaker 1>our brain stopped reacting. Dan and several colleagues put research

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<v Speaker 1>subjects into an fMRI machine to watch their brain activity

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<v Speaker 1>when they behaved it dishonestly, and they found that usually

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<v Speaker 1>when someone first lied for personal gain, they felt bad

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<v Speaker 1>about it, and there was this big bloom of activity

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<v Speaker 1>in the amygdala, a region of the brain associated with

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<v Speaker 1>fear and emotion. But as people continued to lie, that

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<v Speaker 1>brain activity declined, and this may be evidence that lying

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<v Speaker 1>is a slippery slope. We're telling little lies can desensitize

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<v Speaker 1>us and make it easier to tell bigger ones in

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<v Speaker 1>the future. But the news from Dan's research isn't all bad.

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<v Speaker 1>He also found ways to promote honest behavior by priming

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<v Speaker 1>people with cues that put morality a top of mind.

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<v Speaker 1>We asked people to do things like try to recall

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<v Speaker 1>the Ten Commandments or right down an owner code, and

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<v Speaker 1>we saw that those things increased honesty. This might have

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<v Speaker 1>implications for how our important documents are designed. A small

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<v Speaker 1>change in the layout of our forms might get us

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<v Speaker 1>to fill them out more honestly. Will you tell me

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<v Speaker 1>about where the signature line should be on a form?

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<v Speaker 1>So the signature line should be in the beginning of

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<v Speaker 1>the form? Why okay? So think about what what do

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<v Speaker 1>we usually do when we write a form? We write

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<v Speaker 1>and you fill it up, and then at the end

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<v Speaker 1>I said, please sign You know the line has been

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<v Speaker 1>done already, it's over. You did it. You rationalize that

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<v Speaker 1>you forgot about it. Instead, what priming tells us is

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<v Speaker 1>that we should start by getting people to be at

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<v Speaker 1>the higher level of thinking about their morality. Right, So

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<v Speaker 1>what we want is to get people to be aware

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<v Speaker 1>of their own honesty, so we want people to do

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<v Speaker 1>it first. At this point, if you're feeling pangs of

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<v Speaker 1>guilt about having been dishonest in the past, well it's

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<v Speaker 1>another thing. You might be able to blame my mom

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<v Speaker 1>or dad. We teach our kids to be dishonest in

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<v Speaker 1>the social politeness world. It's the first time that you

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<v Speaker 1>tell a kid don't always tell the truth. For example,

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<v Speaker 1>you don't want to offend somebody else's feeling, you don't

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<v Speaker 1>like this kid, don't tell it to them. Other things

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<v Speaker 1>are more important. So I'm wondering whether this is kind

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<v Speaker 1>of the beginning of the way that we teach kids

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<v Speaker 1>this very very delicate calculus about how much to care

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<v Speaker 1>about the truth, how much to care about themselves, and

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<v Speaker 1>how much to care about other people, and how to

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<v Speaker 1>make this very delicate trade of you don't want your

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<v Speaker 1>kid at the mall announcing who's old and who's smelling

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<v Speaker 1>in a fit of unchecked honesty. On the other hand,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of parents actually talk to us about how

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<v Speaker 1>they are so worried that kids are lying at such

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<v Speaker 1>a young age, and they're worried they're going to turn

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<v Speaker 1>into some kind of psychopaths. When they grow up. My

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<v Speaker 1>name is Candy. I'm a professor at the University of Toronto.

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<v Speaker 1>I've been studying how children learned to tell lies for

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<v Speaker 1>the last twenty five years, calling himself was not a

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<v Speaker 1>master of deception as a boy, or was a terrible

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<v Speaker 1>liar as a child. So my sister always could figure

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<v Speaker 1>out one I lied and she always say, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when you lie, your eyes turned the red. So I

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<v Speaker 1>don't that's true or not, but thoughts. That's how she

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<v Speaker 1>cut meat. And a lab outfitted with hidden cameras coming

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<v Speaker 1>and his team tried to discover why some kids start

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<v Speaker 1>lying earlier than others. We wanted to find out, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>who are these two yold's who already lie at this

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<v Speaker 1>tender age, you know, but the majority of them actually

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<v Speaker 1>were very honest. So then we measure their i Q.

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<v Speaker 1>There's no difference between those kids who lied and those

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<v Speaker 1>kids who did not lie. And then we look at

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<v Speaker 1>the onion moral and standing line. You know, there's no difference.

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<v Speaker 1>So and then well maybe just gender, you know, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>boys are more likely to lie then girls, or vice versa.

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<v Speaker 1>And turned out that there's no difference between boys and girls.

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<v Speaker 1>So then we looked closely at two very important count

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<v Speaker 1>if skills. Tiny kids don't fully grasp that other people

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<v Speaker 1>are having their own, unique, subjective experiences. They just presume

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<v Speaker 1>that you know their grandma, that you're also caught up

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<v Speaker 1>on the most recent episodes of pat Patrol, that you, too,

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<v Speaker 1>my enjoy a bite of room temperature period pumpkin. But

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<v Speaker 1>to lie, they've got to develop what's called theory of mind.

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<v Speaker 1>They have to realize that each of us has different

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<v Speaker 1>motives and thoughts and perceptions. They have to understand that

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<v Speaker 1>the thoughts in their heads aren't the thoughts in moms

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<v Speaker 1>or yours or mine. They've also got to develop executive

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<v Speaker 1>function that allows them to strategize and inhibit any impulse

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<v Speaker 1>to just blurt out the truth. Both theory of mind

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<v Speaker 1>and executive function take time to develop. We know that

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<v Speaker 1>kids begin to tell lies around two and a half

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<v Speaker 1>years of age, but at that time only about two

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<v Speaker 1>and a half year olds would lie. But when the

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<v Speaker 1>child reaches three years of age, about kids will lie.

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<v Speaker 1>By the time the kids reach four years of age,

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<v Speaker 1>about the eight percent of kids will lie, and by

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<v Speaker 1>seven years of age, almost kids would like Basically, the

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<v Speaker 1>story is almost all kids at some point in their

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<v Speaker 1>life and then seemed to be this kind of very

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<v Speaker 1>universal developmental trajectory. And turn out, these young two year

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<v Speaker 1>olds who lied how much better exactly functioning abilities than

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<v Speaker 1>those kids who are honest. So it's almost like there's

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<v Speaker 1>a precociousness that's indicated by lying early. It's not like

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<v Speaker 1>these two year olds are all smoking cigarettes behind the

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<v Speaker 1>schoolyard a little other jackets, Like they're developing theory of

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<v Speaker 1>mind early. Yeah, exactly, So am I correct in thinking

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<v Speaker 1>your father? So when I hang around my friends who

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<v Speaker 1>have young kids, it's easy for them to to brag

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about like my kids recognizing shapes and

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<v Speaker 1>letters and she's only nine months old, and my kid

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<v Speaker 1>is walking and my kid is reading, and we're beating

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<v Speaker 1>all the milestones. Were you like hoping that your kid

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<v Speaker 1>was gonna lie really early? So, because I have a

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<v Speaker 1>lab for testing kids, line when Nathan turns, that's his name.

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<v Speaker 1>So when he turned three exactly on his third year birthday,

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<v Speaker 1>I brought him to my lap and I had my

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<v Speaker 1>students testing him, and I watched with anxiety. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I thought, is he going to be honest? So he

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<v Speaker 1>is going to tell a lie, and he lied, so

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<v Speaker 1>I was very happy. So so he figured out, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the theory of mind and figure out the exactive functioning

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<v Speaker 1>at three years of age exactly. I have for a

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<v Speaker 1>video recording of that. So you throw a hell of

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<v Speaker 1>a birthday party. Indeed, when my son was little, I

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<v Speaker 1>told him that when the ice cream van drove down

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<v Speaker 1>our street playing its music, that meant it had run

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<v Speaker 1>out of ice cream. Meal times are a classic setting

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<v Speaker 1>for parental lies. No, that is clearly not an airplane.

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<v Speaker 1>That is a rubberized spoon. Dad, if that is your

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<v Speaker 1>real name, I like to my daughter all day long. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>how old is your daughter? Two? And like, what are

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of wies that you're telling your daughter? Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>This tastes great. Yeah, you could definitely have some vetchables. Oh.

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<v Speaker 1>The woman gleefully deceiving her daughter is Sophie Vanderzi of

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<v Speaker 1>the Erasmus School of Economics in the Netherlands. She runs

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<v Speaker 1>experiments to study how we lie to one another. I

0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.760
<v Speaker 1>remember my mom lying to me when I was given

0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:35.640
<v Speaker 1>a jump rope as a present as a little girl.

0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 1>She was worried that her muscular, not very coordinator daughter

0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.040
<v Speaker 1>was going to spin herself upside down and knock her

0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.280
<v Speaker 1>teeth out with it. And so she lied to me

0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:46.560
<v Speaker 1>and told me that the way to use the toy

0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:48.720
<v Speaker 1>it was to lay it gently on the ground and

0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.360
<v Speaker 1>then jump all around it. And so when my dad

0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:53.720
<v Speaker 1>came home, he found me playing with my jump rope

0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.600
<v Speaker 1>as one would stamp out of fire. But I could

0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.200
<v Speaker 1>never tell when my mom was lying. And if she

0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.800
<v Speaker 1>still lies, then I still can't. Well, we're basically terrible

0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.240
<v Speaker 1>allied dettection, and we're quite good at lying, and that's

0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.960
<v Speaker 1>quite problematic. Experiments suggest that humans suck at spotting lies,

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:14.679
<v Speaker 1>like genuinely suck. When research participants were asked to identify

0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.120
<v Speaker 1>the liars among a group of people half of whom

0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.160
<v Speaker 1>we're telling the truth and half of whom we're lying,

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 1>they were right only fifty percent of the time, which

0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 1>is an abysmal success rate. It's just barely better than chance.

0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.240
<v Speaker 1>And as for all that stuff on forensic TV shows,

0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.400
<v Speaker 1>forget about it. One of the first comments you usually

0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.200
<v Speaker 1>cantus that liars look away. Something you often hear is

0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.920
<v Speaker 1>that they look to the top left corner. They behave

0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.400
<v Speaker 1>a bit sort of shiftly, But those are not actually

0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.920
<v Speaker 1>cutes to the seats, as we know from research and

0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.320
<v Speaker 1>from metal analysis, but that does mean that because people

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.440
<v Speaker 1>think it's acute. One of the cues that we did

0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.200
<v Speaker 1>find is that looking someone like really in the eye,

0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.000
<v Speaker 1>like sort of uncomfortable eye contact, can be acute to

0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:57.960
<v Speaker 1>the seats. So that makes it really complicated. And one

0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:00.200
<v Speaker 1>of the other problems is that lying is that through

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.280
<v Speaker 1>something you get better at with practice, So the more

0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.200
<v Speaker 1>you lie, the emotional responses to the line become less

0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:12.880
<v Speaker 1>and less severe. YEA, when I was five or six,

0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.560
<v Speaker 1>and my uncle took me aside and he had a

0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.360
<v Speaker 1>chalkboard and he did all these drawings of all the

0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.200
<v Speaker 1>trees that we could see around where he lived, and

0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:22.760
<v Speaker 1>he said, have you ever seen the trees at night?

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.920
<v Speaker 1>And I said, well, well no, because I'm asleep. And

0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.120
<v Speaker 1>he said, well you know what happens to trees at night?

0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:30.240
<v Speaker 1>And I said no, and he said, well, they turned

0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:35.400
<v Speaker 1>upside down and they're actually rockets and they fly into

0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:40.480
<v Speaker 1>space and then they come back before the morning and

0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:47.360
<v Speaker 1>get him planted, and that's what trees do. Polygraph machines,

0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:51.280
<v Speaker 1>the favorite lie detection devices of TV dramas, are legitimately

0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 1>better than humans. It's spotting to see, but they're not

0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:58.560
<v Speaker 1>perfectly reliable either. A polygraph doesn't directly test the truthfulness

0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.800
<v Speaker 1>of a statement. It measures our physical arousal through blood

0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:06.000
<v Speaker 1>pressure and breathing patterns and perspiration. The idea is that

0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.000
<v Speaker 1>lying usually stresses us out, and we can measure stress.

0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.000
<v Speaker 1>But sometimes, of course, we can be stressed out for

0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.000
<v Speaker 1>other reasons as well, so it's not a perfect indicator,

0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:21.040
<v Speaker 1>and polygraph examination involves some interpretation. Two different examiners given

0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 1>the exact same polygraph output might come back with conflicting results.

0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.000
<v Speaker 1>As a kid, I designed my own lie detector test

0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:34.560
<v Speaker 1>to be used exclusively on my little brother Max. I

0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.160
<v Speaker 1>drew a series of buttons and dials onto an index card,

0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:39.880
<v Speaker 1>added a bright red circle where the suspected liar was

0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.880
<v Speaker 1>to place his thumb, and my tiny brown eyed brother

0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.320
<v Speaker 1>dutifully submitted pressing his thumb on the circle, at which

0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:48.920
<v Speaker 1>point I whisked the index card into my room, shut

0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.840
<v Speaker 1>the door, and turned on my lie detector machine, which

0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 1>ran with a horrible roar. In truth, I was really

0:16:55.520 --> 0:17:02.680
<v Speaker 1>running the vacuum cleaner listener. I cannot tell you how

0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:06.240
<v Speaker 1>guilty I am in recalling this story Maxie, I am

0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.080
<v Speaker 1>so sorry. Next time we hang out, I am buying

0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:14.160
<v Speaker 1>every round. As Professor Conley pointed out, children's first lives

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.919
<v Speaker 1>should be celebrated as a milestone, not interrogated with the hoover.

0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.120
<v Speaker 1>But by the time you grow up, you might lie

0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.359
<v Speaker 1>more than you realize. In an experimental setting where people

0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.480
<v Speaker 1>have to talk for ten minutes to someone they didn't

0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.879
<v Speaker 1>know in a waiting room that was secretly recorded, that

0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.160
<v Speaker 1>people already lied twice on average in this ten minutes

0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.040
<v Speaker 1>conversation with a stranger. So we all lie much more

0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.680
<v Speaker 1>than we think we do. So there was an experimental

0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.000
<v Speaker 1>design that put people in a room with a stranger

0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:42.959
<v Speaker 1>for ten minutes, and even in the course of that

0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.639
<v Speaker 1>ten minute conversation, they collocked two lies on average. And

0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.080
<v Speaker 1>what's interesting is they didn't have to impress. They were

0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:51.879
<v Speaker 1>just in the waiting room waiting to take part in

0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.119
<v Speaker 1>an experiment, not realizing that was already the experiments that

0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.359
<v Speaker 1>they were secretly being filmed. So to your point, you're saying,

0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.439
<v Speaker 1>there's nothing to be gained, right, like, this isn't your boss,

0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.399
<v Speaker 1>this isn't your mom, this isn't your lover, there's no

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.560
<v Speaker 1>real social stakes here, and we still do benefits, and

0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.280
<v Speaker 1>we still lie. Remember Allison, the liar that we met

0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:13.800
<v Speaker 1>at the very beginning of this episode, the one who

0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.399
<v Speaker 1>got the letter of rec from a crush. We dragged

0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.920
<v Speaker 1>her back into the studio to present a little gift

0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.840
<v Speaker 1>for serving as the liar laureate of this episode of

0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:27.320
<v Speaker 1>Deeply Human. Okay, well, thanks so much Allison for coming

0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.080
<v Speaker 1>in again. No problem, Why am I back? Actually? I

0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:36.120
<v Speaker 1>had just wanted to play you some audio. Oh all right,

0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:43.520
<v Speaker 1>To whomsoever it may concern, I hereby commend Alison Cherry

0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.919
<v Speaker 1>on the slide design and flawless execution of her elegant

0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:52.080
<v Speaker 1>con May her work serve as an inspiration for future

0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:58.840
<v Speaker 1>generations of scheming love sick co eds. Sincerely, Curtis Sittenfeld,

0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:09.840
<v Speaker 1>Are you kidding me? What? How did you make that happen?

0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:14.160
<v Speaker 1>I wish you could see my face right now. Thank

0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:18.080
<v Speaker 1>you so much for that, Curtis Sittenfeld. In addition to

0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.760
<v Speaker 1>being a best selling fiction writer, you are a total boss.

0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.840
<v Speaker 1>And next time we meet, I am buying every round. Allison,

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.919
<v Speaker 1>for her part, has zero regrets about lying to obtain

0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.399
<v Speaker 1>her letter from her crush worthy t A, and she

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:34.880
<v Speaker 1>rereads it every few years. Come, our expert on children's lives,

0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.879
<v Speaker 1>thinks that lying can actually be an important part of

0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:41.960
<v Speaker 1>a happy life. The fact that the lies exists in

0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:47.359
<v Speaker 1>our society is because sometimes they serve as lubricant of

0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:52.040
<v Speaker 1>social interaction and it makes our lives better. But you

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:56.480
<v Speaker 1>put yourself in this situation. Just think about this. If

0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:02.359
<v Speaker 1>you are honest all the time, all minute, think about

0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:04.720
<v Speaker 1>what kind of person you're going to be. Just try

0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.240
<v Speaker 1>it the full warm day. I can't guarantee you you're

0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:13.080
<v Speaker 1>going to be friendless, spouseless, and then it may be jobless.

0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.480
<v Speaker 1>You know, you just nobody would like you if you're

0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.520
<v Speaker 1>always very, very honest. You know you mentioned that you

0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.560
<v Speaker 1>were a lousy liar when you were a kid. Are

0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.800
<v Speaker 1>you any better now? No? I'm not. You know what's

0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:26.359
<v Speaker 1>funny is I don't know if I should believe you

0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:31.960
<v Speaker 1>or not. There's no way, there's no way. Embarrassingly, I'm

0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.040
<v Speaker 1>pretty sure that I lied during the course of this podcast.

0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.680
<v Speaker 1>Remember when Dan Ariali, the Duke Professor, asked me about

0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.639
<v Speaker 1>dating sites and I admitted to shaving off a few pounds.

0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:46.080
<v Speaker 1>After we spoke, I thought to myself, Wait, which dating

0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.040
<v Speaker 1>site asks for an exact weight. I mean, I know

0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.080
<v Speaker 1>I fibbed on that stuff before, but I think it

0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.720
<v Speaker 1>was like on my driver's license. I just I didn't

0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.720
<v Speaker 1>want to interrupt the flow of the conversation, and I

0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.240
<v Speaker 1>didn't stop to really make sure I had my facts rate.

0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.640
<v Speaker 1>And just like that, I'm sucked up in this metavortex

0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:06.400
<v Speaker 1>lying to a lying expert about lying. It's not all intentional,

0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:13.280
<v Speaker 1>it's not all perfectly calculated. The temptations to be dishonest, right,

0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.280
<v Speaker 1>they just shop all the time, and net means we

0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:21.640
<v Speaker 1>need to be very careful. That asks for vigilance, tremendous vigilance. Dan,

0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.399
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry about the fib If we ever meet in person,

0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:28.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm buying every round. Man, this is becoming like the

0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:32.560
<v Speaker 1>most expensive podcast ever. Learning about Dan's research on how

0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.800
<v Speaker 1>little transgressions can pave the way for bigger ones, it's

0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.600
<v Speaker 1>changed the way I behave just a little bit. I'm

0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:40.680
<v Speaker 1>more likely to pause during an anecdote to get the

0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:44.120
<v Speaker 1>names right, even if it dampens the comic timing. And

0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:46.840
<v Speaker 1>when declining an invitation to hang out, I'm trying to

0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.360
<v Speaker 1>lean less on the old excuse of having work to do,

0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.720
<v Speaker 1>which is always sort of true, but rarely the whole story.

0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:55.119
<v Speaker 1>And if you'd like to lie less, it might be

0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:59.119
<v Speaker 1>that honest answers about the daily, unimportant stuff can serve

0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:01.439
<v Speaker 1>as cross train for the muscles that we need to

0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.479
<v Speaker 1>answer the hard questions truthfully. If lying is a slippery slope,

0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.399
<v Speaker 1>we can at least work cleats. So to co worker Andy,

0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't love the haircut, but you are awesome and

0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:16.280
<v Speaker 1>I like you no matter what is on or near

0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:20.280
<v Speaker 1>your head. To the Minnesota Department of Motor Vehicles on

0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.000
<v Speaker 1>last way in, I was one d and forty six

0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:26.880
<v Speaker 1>and a half pounds to my mom, so you totally

0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.200
<v Speaker 1>made the right call about the jump rope. I would

0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.960
<v Speaker 1>have knocked my theory of mind right out the back

0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:37.240
<v Speaker 1>of my little head. On the next Deeply Human, we'll

0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:39.560
<v Speaker 1>ask why do humans have sex at times that our

0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:45.480
<v Speaker 1>fellow mammals don't. So for most female ammost it's two

0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:48.000
<v Speaker 1>or three days out of a cycle that they have sex,

0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:51.919
<v Speaker 1>and otherwise they're not willing to have sex with males

0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.919
<v Speaker 1>that initiate it. And there really are that attractive to

0:22:55.960 --> 0:23:00.359
<v Speaker 1>males either. Males seem to know. Deeply Human is a

0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:05.040
<v Speaker 1>BBC World Service and American public Media co production with iHeartMedia,

0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:07.240
<v Speaker 1>and it's hosted by me Dessa