Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drill. This is a special
Speaker 1: bonus episode brought to you by the CBCS The Outlaw Ocean.
Speaker 1: It's a riveting anthology podcast hosted by Pulitzer Prize winning
Speaker 1: journalist Ian Urbina, and it brings us urgent stories from
Speaker 1: the vast, beautiful, and largely lawless open seas.
Speaker 2: You're about to hear the first episode of The Outlaw
Speaker 2: Ocean Season two. It's about the migration crisis currently unfolding
Speaker 2: in the Mediterranean Sea. In today's episode, you'll hear about
Speaker 2: an investigation that follows one rural farmer from Guinea Bissau.
Speaker 2: Take a listen, does.
Speaker 3: He have a ballpark?
Speaker 4: Sons of how many shots he's heard fired during the
Speaker 4: whole incident?
Speaker 5: Comien de tira thank step, please, thank you ple the
Speaker 5: sing but minimum five more than five?
Speaker 4: And which the shooting did it occur over the course
Speaker 4: of one minute, ten minutes.
Speaker 3: More than two.
Speaker 4: In twenty twenty one, over thirty thousand migrants arrived in
Speaker 4: Italy after crossing the Mediterranean Sea. Many of these migrants
Speaker 4: came from Sub Saharan Africa and when they try to
Speaker 4: head to Europe, they often go to Libya. Libya is
Speaker 4: a popular place for them to launch across the Mediterranean
Speaker 4: because the trip is relatively short and the traffickers there
Speaker 4: in Libya simple charged less than they do in places
Speaker 4: like Morocco or Tunisia. But this crossing is also one
Speaker 4: of the most dangerous, and that number of thirty thousand
Speaker 4: people doesn't take into account those who don't make it.
Speaker 3: Does he remember the date of the launch.
Speaker 4: Mohammad David is one of those migrants who never landed
Speaker 4: in Italy. I'm talking to him through Pierre Qatar, a
Speaker 4: photographer and translator from my team. Mohammed David in about
Speaker 4: one hundred and thirty others tried to make the crossing
Speaker 4: in a small inflatable boat called a zodiac. Almost one
Speaker 4: of the others in the boat was a man from
Speaker 4: Guinea Bissau named Aliu Kande, and.
Speaker 3: He remembers seeing Aliu in the boat and did he
Speaker 3: talk to him? And I saw.
Speaker 4: In May of twenty twenty one, I traveled to Libya.
Speaker 4: I wanted to learn why so many migrants were trying
Speaker 4: to make this incredibly dangerous journey from Libya Italy and
Speaker 4: to investigate the human rights abuses that were happening on
Speaker 4: the Mediterranean. I also wanted to know the EU's role
Speaker 4: in orchestrating these abuses and how that was connected to
Speaker 4: the thousands of migrants being held in Libyan prisons. All right,
Speaker 4: so then how long would it take between the bullet
Speaker 4: in his neck and he's dead?
Speaker 3: How long? About an hour? An hour? Around an hour?
Speaker 3: So he was bleeding out for an hour.
Speaker 4: Aliu Conde died from a bullet wound to the neck
Speaker 4: inside a secret Libyan prison called Al Mabani. His death
Speaker 4: is just one of many. Every year, tens of thousands
Speaker 4: of migrants take the same risks and face the same
Speaker 4: profound dangers in their quest to reach a better life
Speaker 4: in Europe. Those that die are casualties in a proxy
Speaker 4: war that's being funded by the European Union and carried
Speaker 4: out by Libyan forces. My team and I spent months
Speaker 4: tracing Aliu's path from a small village in Sub Saharan
Speaker 4: Africa to his death in Tripoli. I've been covering stories
Speaker 4: like this for decades, and that reporting has taken me
Speaker 4: all over the planet. This investigation turned out to be
Speaker 4: one of the most dangerous of my career. I'm Ian Urbina,
Speaker 4: and this is the outlaw Ocean. Aliu Conde's story starts
Speaker 4: in a small village in Guinea Bissau, one of the
Speaker 4: poorest countries in Africa. Ali's mother told us he was
Speaker 4: born on a Monday. He lived in the village in
Speaker 4: a small clay house with his wife, Hava, and two children.
Speaker 4: His father told us that he worked the fields and
Speaker 4: herded cattle on the family farm, where they grew cassava, mangoes,
Speaker 4: and cashews. Over the past few years, weather patterns had
Speaker 4: started to shift. The dry seasons were too hot, the
Speaker 4: rainy seasons were too wet, and the yields from their
Speaker 4: crops were getting steadily smaller. Their four skinny cows were
Speaker 4: hardly able to produce milk. Life on the farm was hard,
Speaker 4: and every season it seemed to be getting harder. Ali's wife, Hava,
Speaker 4: said that he was tired of living in poverty. Hava
Speaker 4: was eight months pregnant with their third child at the time,
Speaker 4: and Aliu was worried that he was failing before God
Speaker 4: to provide for his family. Aliu had two older brothers
Speaker 4: who had left Guinea Basau for Europe and had been
Speaker 4: sending money back home. He decided it was his turn
Speaker 4: to leave the village. Hava and the rest of his
Speaker 4: family supported the decision. Aliu's father told him whoever goes
Speaker 4: abroad brings fortune at home. Before leaving his village, Aliu
Speaker 4: called his brother Denbas and asked for advice. Denbas had
Speaker 4: left Guinea Bissau and made it to Italy, where he
Speaker 4: still lives. We asked Denbas about that phone call. He
Speaker 4: warned Aliu against trying to follow him there. Getting to
Speaker 4: Italy would mean crossing the Mediterranean from Libya. Denbas said
Speaker 4: the trip was much too dangerous. He told Aliu that
Speaker 4: the safest route to Europe would be from Morocco to Spain,
Speaker 4: where their other brother lived. The trip would be more expensive,
Speaker 4: but at only fourteen kilometers, it would also be the
Speaker 4: fastest way, and in September twenty nineteen, Aliu Conde decided
Speaker 4: that the risk was worth taking and he began his journey.
Speaker 4: He carried a koran, a leather diary, two pairs of pants,
Speaker 4: two t shirts, and six hundred euros. He was twenty
Speaker 4: eight years old. It took Aliu a month across Mali
Speaker 4: in Algeria before landing in Morocco. When he arrived, he
Speaker 4: discovered that the price to get to Spain was triple
Speaker 4: what he could pay. He called his family and asked
Speaker 4: for help. There was no way they could afford it either.
Speaker 4: Aliu's only option was Libya. One of my overarching missions
Speaker 4: with the outlo Ocean Project is to chronicle the weird
Speaker 4: and wild world that exists offshore in all its different forms.
Speaker 4: And if that's our goal, then you have to cover
Speaker 4: the Mediterranean crisis, specifically the tens of thousands of people
Speaker 4: that are trying desperately to cross the Mediterranean and get
Speaker 4: to Europe. I think it's important point out that in
Speaker 4: some places, at least, the criminalization of migration is a
Speaker 4: pretty new phenomena. If you go back even ten years,
Speaker 4: there are plenty of places, including in Africa, where it
Speaker 4: used to be normal, legal, and sometimes even encouraged for
Speaker 4: people to migrate between countries that might be for seasonal
Speaker 4: work or for permanent moves by folks like Aliu who
Speaker 4: hope to improve a family's fortunes. And now that kind
Speaker 4: of movement across borders is illegal.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 4: So couple the illegality of migration with the reality of
Speaker 4: climate change, which is a massive driver of migration, and
Speaker 4: you have a very scary situation. Academics estimate that over
Speaker 4: the next fifty years, one hundred and fifty million people
Speaker 4: are likely to migrate, and that movement will largely be
Speaker 4: driven by climate change. And most of this climate migration
Speaker 4: will involve folks from poorer nations moving to richer nations.
Speaker 4: If you look to the the Mediterranean, you can already
Speaker 4: see this happening right. A lot of these migrants are
Speaker 4: headed for Italy. In particular, according to the UN, thirty
Speaker 4: one thousand, six hundred migrants crossed from North Africa to
Speaker 4: Italy in twenty twenty one. In twenty twenty two, that
Speaker 4: number was about one hundred and five thousand. The most
Speaker 4: recent figures for twenty twenty three put the number at
Speaker 4: around one hundred and fifty three thousand. Those are massive
Speaker 4: numbers of people coming from places like Bangladesh, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Gambia, Sudan.
Speaker 4: They're migrating north to countries like Libya and trying to
Speaker 4: find their way across the Mediterranean to Europe from there.
Speaker 4: The Italian government has said that it believes there are
Speaker 4: upwards of seven hundred thousand migrants currently in Libya hoping
Speaker 4: to make the trip. So how has the EU and
Speaker 4: Italy responded. Well, what they've done has been to try
Speaker 4: their best to prevent these migrants from ever touching European soil,
Speaker 4: and one of the ways that they've done this is
Speaker 4: to outsourced border enforcement to places like Libya. Nearly two
Speaker 4: hundred migrants were brought to the Italian port of Pozzallo
Speaker 4: early Monday of bordered the Italian Coast Guard ships sailing
Speaker 4: under the front Tex.
Speaker 1: Frontext, the European Border Agency, has described its concern about
Speaker 1: what it calls a steady increase in irregular migration.
Speaker 4: Across to pay more money to have to use external
Speaker 4: border safeguard, it meaning more money for fron.
Speaker 6: Text accused donor funded charity rescue ships of colluding with traffickers.
Speaker 7: Frontext is the EU Coast Guarden border agency and its
Speaker 7: mission is to defend the sovereignty of EU external borders.
Speaker 4: That's Judith Sunderland. She's the Associate director in the Europe
Speaker 4: and Central Asia Division at Human Rights Watch. She's been
Speaker 4: researching human rights abuses against migrants and refugees for more
Speaker 4: than a decade.
Speaker 7: The whole point of the agency is to defend the
Speaker 7: sovereignty of EU external borders. It now has a much
Speaker 7: larger role in that than ever before. Its budget has
Speaker 7: massively increased. I can tell you that in twenty fifteen,
Speaker 7: for example, Frontech's had a budget around one hundred and
Speaker 7: forty three million euros, and in twenty twenty two its
Speaker 7: budget was over seven hundred and fifty million euros. So
Speaker 7: it has massively expanded its powers, its mandate and its budget.
Speaker 7: While it uses at times a humanitarian rhetoric to justify
Speaker 7: its operations, it is also quite unabashedly clear in its
Speaker 7: in its main mission, which is which is really to
Speaker 7: detect what it calls illegal crossings of external borders and
Speaker 7: prevent and deter those crossings.
Speaker 4: The blocking of other national analities before they even reach
Speaker 4: EU soil is a bit of a reach, and yet
Speaker 4: that's what Frontechs is doing over the Mediterranean.
Speaker 6: Frontechs will often say that its aerial surveillance saves lives
Speaker 6: and that by alerting relevant authorities it is ensuring that
Speaker 6: people in distress at sea are rescued.
Speaker 7: But it's quite clear that the goal of this excessive
Speaker 7: network of aerial surveillance is not rescue but rather interception.
Speaker 4: When they see the migrant vessels, they call in the coordinates.
Speaker 4: They know that they would get in legal trouble if
Speaker 4: the coordinates were called directly to the Libyans. Instead, FRONTECHS
Speaker 4: calls it into a national partner, typically the coastal nations Malta, Spain, Italy,
Speaker 4: Greece and those EU players on land then hand off
Speaker 4: the coordinates to the Libyans. Thebbeians dispatch the Libyan Coastguard
Speaker 4: vessel to the coordinates and they arrive to the scene
Speaker 4: where the migrant vessel is. On the other side, you
Speaker 4: have players like doctors without borders, and they're coming at
Speaker 4: it from the exact opposite direction literally geographically and politically,
Speaker 4: and you know, in terms of their goal, they're trying
Speaker 4: to rescue the migrants, get to the vessel, bring those
Speaker 4: migrants quickly on board, and then head further out into
Speaker 4: international waters where the Libyans have less jurisdiction.
Speaker 7: FUNTECHS has a very clear policy of not informing non
Speaker 7: governmental organizations when they detect a boat of migrants and refugees.
Speaker 4: Under international law, you are never allowed to return migrants
Speaker 4: or refugees to a place that has been deemed not
Speaker 4: a place of safety, and Libya has been ruled not
Speaker 4: a place of safety. It's a war zone.
Speaker 3: So it is a.
Speaker 4: Crime for ships, whether they're merchant vessels or the doctors
Speaker 4: out borders folks to take those folks to Libya, but
Speaker 4: Libya can bring them back there. They get captured within
Speaker 4: ninety miles from Libyan shores and brought back to Libyan gulags.
Speaker 4: It's worth thinking of the Libyan Coast Guard as a
Speaker 4: shadow immigration system for the EU. It's a proxy force.
Speaker 4: It's an outsourced force that the EU uses to do
Speaker 4: its dirty work when it comes to migration control.
Speaker 7: Their interest is in intercepting the boats. It's not in
Speaker 7: rescuing people. It's not in ensuring that people are safe
Speaker 7: or treated as humanely or with dignity. They have threatened
Speaker 7: non governmental rescue organizations who are out in the Mediterranean.
Speaker 7: See there is ample evidence of collusion between various Libbying
Speaker 7: Coast Guard units trafficking and smuggling networks. So they have
Speaker 7: a very strong interest in intercepting people that see and
Speaker 7: taking them back to almost certain detention in nightmarish detention
Speaker 7: centers in Libya where they are subjected to further extortion
Speaker 7: and forced labor and any you know, all manner of violence.
Speaker 4: Let me remind this is in international waters. The Libyans
Speaker 4: actually do not have the jurisdiction to do this legally,
Speaker 4: and yet they do. They've got the guns and they've
Speaker 4: got the power, and the EU is willfully looking the
Speaker 4: other way when they make these threats or they open
Speaker 4: fire on vessels over which they have no jurisdiction to
Speaker 4: demand that those migrants climb on board their ship.
Speaker 8: You know, we've seen the Libyan Coast Guard use live
Speaker 8: bullets on people while they're trying to perform an interception,
Speaker 8: which they will try to cast as a rescue.
Speaker 3: We dine Basava.
Speaker 4: When Aliu arrived in Libya on December tenth, twenty twenty,
Speaker 4: he found a cheap place to stay with some other
Speaker 4: migrants in a slum called Gargoresch. Gargresh is a kind
Speaker 4: of parallel universe in Tripoli that's home to tens of
Speaker 4: thousands of dark skinned African migrants. Most of them, like Aliu,
Speaker 4: are from Sub Saharan countries. Aliu had a great uncle,
Speaker 4: Demba Balday, who had been living in Gargresh for years.
Speaker 4: When Aliu arrived in Tripoli, Demba helped him find work.
Speaker 4: My colleague Pierre spoke to him on the phone. For
Speaker 4: the next few months, Aliu worked as a house painter,
Speaker 4: trying to save up the money he'd need to pay
Speaker 4: a trafficker to ferry him to Italy. Just like his
Speaker 4: two older brothers, Aliu's uncle, Demba discouraged him from making
Speaker 4: the trip across the Mediterranean. No no, no, no, no no,
Speaker 4: we Dema told him that's the root of death. I
Speaker 4: wanted to see what was really going on in Libya
Speaker 4: and what the situation was like for ali U Kande
Speaker 4: and all the other migrants forced to make these same
Speaker 4: life or death choices, and that meant going to Tripleli.
Speaker 4: My team landed in TRIPLEI in May twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4: I was joined by Pierre Qatar, the translator you heard earlier,
Speaker 4: my editor Joe Sexton, and another filmmaker named Maya Doles.
Speaker 4: We arrive at the airport and security is there to
Speaker 4: greet us, and immediately things are a little shady. Our
Speaker 4: passports are taken away. We're not allowed to stay with
Speaker 4: them and see what's being discussed. That already gave me pause.
Speaker 4: We get in the car. We had to not the
Speaker 4: hotel that we had chosen, but this other hotel that
Speaker 4: they insist we stay at, and you know, the next
Speaker 4: week is a series of, you know, a dozen similar
Speaker 4: sort of surprises of that that just become this escalating
Speaker 4: situation where it's very obvious that the intention here is
Speaker 4: for us to not do our job, not to talk
Speaker 4: to people, not to report. But from my view, our
Speaker 4: mission remained, you know, our job was to investigate this murder,
Speaker 4: investigate this wider problem, and if we had to slalom
Speaker 4: around their hurdles, we were going to slalom around their hurdles.
Speaker 4: But we were not going to stop, you know, and
Speaker 4: not do the job. If we were, we were going
Speaker 4: to leave the country. But there was no reason to
Speaker 4: stay and sit in a hotel for two weeks. Gargresh
Speaker 4: historically is a thriving section of the city with brick
Speaker 4: and mortar shops and the like, but in the last
Speaker 4: couple decades at least, it has become also this other thing,
Speaker 4: which is the shanty town that houses tens of thousands
Speaker 4: of migrants who end up there. The sense I got
Speaker 4: from a dozen migrants, most of whom live in Gargresh
Speaker 4: is that as dirty and dark a place as it is,
Speaker 4: is actually the one place they feel safe because there
Speaker 4: are lots of them and they can disappear. The larger
Speaker 4: experience when you talk to the migrants about Tripoli is
Speaker 4: the overwhelming sense of fear that at any moment, anywhere
Speaker 4: outside of Gargresh especially, they can be grabbed by anyone.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of different motivations for kidnapping, and if
Speaker 4: you're a migrant, you walk around the city knowing that
Speaker 4: can occur.
Speaker 9: Because he wants to go closer to where he's lived,
Speaker 9: so he doesn't feel comfortable around here.
Speaker 4: So Mohammed David is the migrant you heard at the
Speaker 4: beginning of this episode, and his story isn't much different
Speaker 4: from Aliu's. He's originally from the Ivory Coast. After his
Speaker 4: wife gave birth to a son, it became harder and
Speaker 4: harder for Muhammad David to provide for his family, so
Speaker 4: he made the same decision ali did to leave home
Speaker 4: and try to find a better life in Europe. He
Speaker 4: traveled to Burkina Fasso and landed in Tripoli, where he
Speaker 4: saved up some money and paid a trafficker to bring
Speaker 4: him to Italy.
Speaker 9: They were in the same boat, and how they're in
Speaker 9: the same boat. They what kind of person was all?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 3: That's he said. Aliu was someone who was called he was.
Speaker 8: Just like you, the same thing.
Speaker 9: Okay, and he was from Guinea Bissau.
Speaker 3: Yes, so you speak.
Speaker 4: Once we met Muhammed David, it didn't take long for
Speaker 4: us to realize that he was going to be an
Speaker 4: incredibly valuable source. But he knew that talking to foreign
Speaker 4: journalists in public was a quick way of attracting the
Speaker 4: wrong kind of attention. He knew that undercover security was
Speaker 4: everywhere and that migrants were always at risk. My team
Speaker 4: had been assigned to security detail by the Libyan government,
Speaker 4: and Muhammad David didn't trust them. He insisted that if
Speaker 4: we were going to talk with him, we needed to
Speaker 4: come to his home in Gargash.
Speaker 9: Fifteen winning one.
Speaker 4: So we set up one of the early meetings with
Speaker 4: him in Gargrash and we brought food and one of
Speaker 4: his terms was, look, you got to lose the security.
Speaker 4: You can't come into Gargrash with your security detail, and
Speaker 4: you certainly can't come near where I'm staying. If you've
Speaker 4: got those guys in tow the security guys had said,
Speaker 4: you're not allowed to leave our line of sight. So
Speaker 4: this put me in a bit of a bind. Obviously
Speaker 4: I was going to lean towards Mohammed David, but ultimately
Speaker 4: what I said to the security guys was, look, you're
Speaker 4: going to take me into this location. I'm going to
Speaker 4: meet someone, and then he's going to walk me into
Speaker 4: where he's staying and we're going to have dinner with him.
Speaker 4: I will never be further than five hundred meters from you,
Speaker 4: but you will not see where I am exactly, because
Speaker 4: that's the term I struck with the migrant And if
Speaker 4: you're not okay with that, then I'm sorry, but that's
Speaker 4: what I need to do so as to make him
Speaker 4: safe and make him feel safe. And that's what we did.
Speaker 4: We met Mohammed David on a street corner a couple
Speaker 4: of blocks away from Gargresh. We walked through some alleys,
Speaker 4: winding our way through the night into the depths of Gargresh.
Speaker 4: The security detail was maybe a block away, and then
Speaker 4: once we got into Gargresh, we did a couple of
Speaker 4: blind turns to shake them and then went with Muhammad
Speaker 4: David sat down and.
Speaker 3: From the boat and then took us to their prison.
Speaker 4: Any the more we talked to Mohammed David and other
Speaker 4: people who knew Ali you, the more a really clear
Speaker 4: picture of him started to come together. The impression I
Speaker 4: got of him was that he was quiet, kind of introverted,
Speaker 4: and watchful, maybe a bit shy. He was a gentle
Speaker 4: young man who was quick to smile. He like soccer
Speaker 4: and rap music. Don't forget he was a whiral kid
Speaker 4: who lived most of his life on a farm in
Speaker 4: a remote village, so he didn't have that kind of
Speaker 4: hardened street sensibility to him. He was also less mature
Speaker 4: than say Muhammed David or some of the others who
Speaker 4: were trying to undertake a similar journey to Europe. We'd
Speaker 4: been set up and filming for about twenty minutes and
Speaker 4: that's when my phone started ringing and things very quickly
Speaker 4: started going sideways.
Speaker 3: You hear me, So they kept beating you. I figure,
Speaker 3: if you didn't want to give money, we will walk
Speaker 3: back in one hour give and then he would need
Speaker 3: to tell leave us an our community, the police just
Speaker 3: to tell are you to leave us? Get we are
Speaker 3: talking and were any get understand, but you gotta walk away,
Speaker 3: Can you walk away a little bit?
Speaker 4: The security detail had called the bosses of the security company.
Speaker 4: The bosses had called local close and playing closed police
Speaker 4: around Gargresh, who spy on these guys. And there was
Speaker 4: this sort of growing fury around me and these Westerners
Speaker 4: who were in the depths of Gargresh talking to migrants,
Speaker 4: and so over the next twenty minutes, you know, I
Speaker 4: got increasingly angry, screaming calls from various folks saying where
Speaker 4: are you. We're going to storm Gargresh to come get you.
Speaker 4: You're not allowed to be talking with them without us present,
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. And I was saying, you know,
Speaker 4: we are only five hundred meters.
Speaker 3: Away, we know where you are.
Speaker 4: If there's a problem, we will contact you. We can
Speaker 4: get out easily, don't worry, We're fine, and you need
Speaker 4: to just calm down and back off. And after about
Speaker 4: thirty minutes, when the threats escalated to a pretty high degree,
Speaker 4: I told my career, look, we got to pull out
Speaker 4: of here because this is going to make Mohammed David unsafe.
Speaker 3: For their sake. Get out of here because they're setting
Speaker 3: the police.
Speaker 4: And we pulled out and that's when, you know, I
Speaker 4: got scolded on the street and yelled at by the
Speaker 4: police chief, and he said he was going to recommend
Speaker 4: having us thrown out of the country for talking to migrants.
Speaker 4: And we went back to the hotel, and that's when
Speaker 4: I got calls from the head of the security company
Speaker 4: that had been put on us by the government, and
Speaker 4: was further told that we had broken their rules. From
Speaker 4: there forward, we were officially put on house arrest. We
Speaker 4: were not supposed to talk further with migrants without permission.
Speaker 4: We were not supposed to talk with ambassadors or foreign officials.
Speaker 4: We were not allowed to go to certain parts of
Speaker 4: the city, including Gargresh. You know, we were not allowed
Speaker 4: to leave the hotel. Bottom line, the very people that
Speaker 4: were supposed to protect us were now sort of incarcerating us.
Speaker 4: And the very people that were meaning the government officials
Speaker 4: who were supposed to be welcoming us into the country
Speaker 4: and kind of facilitating our reporting or doing just the opposite,
Speaker 4: they were throwing up every obstacle in our way. So
Speaker 4: it was really pretty clear that this was going to
Speaker 4: be a tough reporting trip from there forward. Next time
Speaker 4: on the Outlaw Ocean, my team and I continue investigating
Speaker 4: the murder of al U Conde inside a migrant prison,
Speaker 4: and that investigation puts us directly in the crosshairs of
Speaker 4: a Libyan militia. This series is created and produced by
Speaker 4: The Outlaw Ocean Project. It's reported and hosted by me
Speaker 4: Ian Urbina, written and produced by Michael Katano. Our associate
Speaker 4: producer is Craig Ferguson. Mix sound design and original music
Speaker 4: by Alex Edkins and Graham Walsh. Additional sound recording by
Speaker 4: Tony Fowler. For CBC Podcasts are Coordinating producers Fabiola Carletti,
Speaker 4: Senior producer Damon Ferless. The executive producers are Cecil Fernandez
Speaker 4: and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager and
Speaker 4: r If Narani is the director of CBC Podcasts Special
Speaker 4: Thanks to Pierre Qatar, Joe Sexton and May Adults.
Speaker 2: That was an episode from season two of The Outlaw Ocean.
Speaker 2: If you liked what you heard, you can find the
Speaker 2: show wherever you get your podcasts.