WEBVTT - #150 Jason Flom with Randal Padgett 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.560 In the late nineteen eighties. Randall Paget was a poultry 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.360 farmer and family man in the small town of Arab, Alabama, who, 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.320 by his own admission, made the biggest mistake of his 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:14.240 life when he stepped out and his wife Kathy with 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:15.720 a coworker. 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:16.240 Named Judy Smith. 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:19.439 The affair was on and off again over the years, 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:21.960 and during one of those on again times, Judy and 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.840 Randall took a road trip to Florida, only to be 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.560 awoken the first night they were there with some harrowing news. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.920 On August seventeenth, nineteen ninety Cathy's body had been discovered 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.599 in her bed. She had endured a violent struggle and 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.720 had sustained forty six stab wounds, which ultimately killed her, 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.279 and to make matters worse, seamen was found inside of her. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.200 Even though there was no indication that she had been raped. 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.320 The night before this Florida trip, that Paget children had 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:55.120 stayed with Randall in his tiny trailer, they knew that 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:57.640 he hadn't left in the middle of the night to 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.920 do anything, much less kill their mother. No signs of 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.360 a break in at her home, Randall became the suspect, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.560 and he was arrested when the seamen turned. 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:07.920 Out to be his. 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:13.000 The state would commit misconduct during the trial, involving blood 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.400 found at the crime scene that didn't match Kathy or Randall. 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.120 This misconduct was one of the factors that led ultimately 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:24.200 to Randall being sentenced to death. The prosecutor misconduct would 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.959 result in a retrial, and a defense investigation would uncover 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:32.360 some of the craziest perversities, proving that Paget had been 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.360 innocent all along and rescuing Randall from death. 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:52.160 Row is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.360 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:55.800 That's me. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:02:00.480 I'm your host, and today I'm actually I kind of butterflies. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:02.400 I gotta be honest because today you're going to hear 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:07.640 a story that I've been wanting to tell for as 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.840 long as I've known about it. And when you hear it, 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.119 you'll understand why. Because this is one of the craziest 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:19.399 stories I believe in the history of American jurisprudence. And 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:21.560 to help tell the story, we have an attorney. He's 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:25.120 a personal hero of mine. Richard S. Jaffy is with us. 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.240 So Richard, Welcome to Wrongful conviction. 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.640 I'm so happy to be here, Jason, and today. 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:36.120 We're going to be telling the incredible saga of Randall. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.560 Paget Randall, as I always say, I'm sorry you have 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:41.200 to be here, but I'm happy you're here. 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:43.560 I'm real happy to be here. I've been in a 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:45.200 lot worse places. 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:51.520 Well said Randall. Let's start with you, because you grew 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.760 up in a small town in Alabama, a town called Arab. 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.840 I had never heard of Arab, But can you just 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.520 give us an idea of what your life was like 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:02.560 before everything went so crazy? 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.520 Okay, the town has pronounced Ara. Yeah. I grew up 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:09.400 in the fifties. Well, a matter of fact, I was 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:14.560 born in nineteen fifty small town population probably about seven 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:19.200 thousand now. Grew up on a farm. For this simple life. 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:22.320 I had good parents. They worked hard, they carried me 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:26.160 to church, and well, I went to college. I got 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:30.160 a degree in business and started to work with this plant. 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.400 And I always loved outside, and so I ended up 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:39.080 buying a poetry farm, got married, had two children, and 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.760 had a pretty good life. Thirty two acres of land 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.200 and the house had the land paid for, the house 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:52.520 almost paid for, and I made probably the biggest mistake 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:57.920 in my life. I had an extramarital affair. 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.800 When you're referring to Judy Smith, Now you used to 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.440 work together when all that started. Was it when you 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:07.120 already had the poultry farm? 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:13.720 No, it was was eating corporation, another plant, and we 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.880 lived close together. One day here and work, she had 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:22.080 a swimming pool. Something was said about going skinny dipping. 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.800 So I remember when night we'd been working late and 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:30.440 almost at home, and I seen her car in front 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.560 of me and she pulled up in her driveway. So 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:37.320 I kept thinking about the skinny dipping joke, so I 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.960 put my headlights in behind her, trying to scare her. 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.240 I figured she knew it was me, and then I 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.760 went on home and didn't think anything else about it. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.039 Or the next day at worked, she said, well did 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.880 you chicken out last night? So next night, same thing. 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.240 I got almost her place, which was just before I 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.880 got to my place, the he car is again pulled in. 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.960 I pulled in, let's go skinny. Didn't well, she starts 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.040 stripping off clothes. I thought it's all a big joke. 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.359 So we got totally naked and wanted to do the deed, 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:13.599 and I said no, I'm going home. Well, I did 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:18.960 a long weekend, and all weekend the devil got my 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.520 brain and said, you should just do it once. You 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.320 should just do it once. And then did it once, 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.560 and then it just more and more and more, and 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:30.440 I was I was miserable. I guess it was mainly 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:37.680 six and my wife and I Kathy, her name was Kathy. 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:45.320 We had separated and she got murdered. I stay up 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:49.960 numerous times, and right after she was dead, they said, 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:57.400 my children, I learned later, who were six and eleven 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.719 at the time, they really want that found the body 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:06.120 of their mother. And I'm thinking about all that stuff. 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.200 And I got physically ill when I first found out 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:14.840 about it. But it was like a nightmare, especially when 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.400 the police were kind of putting their finger at me. 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:23.560 I couldn't even mourn the death of my wife with 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.039 all that hanging over me. And I felt a lot 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:32.279 of guilt. If I had been home with my wife 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:37.479 where I should have been, she would probably be a lie. 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:43.440 And well, the police accused me of doing it, which 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.080 I can understand why. I've seen all the TV movies 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:52.479 about the affairs and all that stuff, But DNA was 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.359 brand new back then. It was nineteen ninety when she 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:00.640 was killed, and I was just learning about doing Most 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.920 people didn't know about that stuff back then, so I 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:08.480 willingally gave my blood sample and thought, man, I can't 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.520 wait till the UNITESK gets back, so they will start 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.480 looking at the right place, because I wanted every kill 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:16.760 my wife to be found. 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.400 I read about your case in Richard's amazing book. It's 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.840 called Quest for Justice Defending the Damned by Richard S. Jaffe, 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.520 and now there's a second edition out. And this case 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:36.320 is extraordinary in so many ways. But I can understand 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:40.200 why the jury voted to convict you because even though 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:44.400 there was significant evidence that it couldn't have been you, 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:49.720 but this one thing was really almost impossible for your 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.360 attorneys to overcome. And Richard, you talk about this in 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:58.240 your book. So this murder happened on August seventeenth of nineteen. 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:05.680 Ninety, Randall and his paramour, Judy Smith, went to Florida 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.840 on a scuba diving trip. It's about six or seven 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:15.640 hours from arab While in Florida on the evening of 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.680 August sixteenth, the early mornings of August seventeenth, nineteen ninety, 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.680 Randall's asleep. They just got there and a phone call 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:30.160 comes from Randall's brother saying that his wife Kathy was murdered. 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.640 Randall immediately went and threw up, and then Judy and 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:40.480 Randall immediately turned around and drove back, and they drove 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:45.320 right to the Sheriff's department. The interesting thing is that 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.560 you would think that Randall was so shook up, so distraught, 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.760 that Judy would have driven the whole way back, But 0:08:54.160 --> 0:09:01.440 apparently Judy was up all night and couldn't keep the 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.760 car in the road on these windy rural roads in Florida, 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.280 and after about thirty or forty minutes, they were about 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.600 colliding with everything, and Randall had to drive the entire 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.080 way back and Judy went to sleep in the passenger side. 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:20.400 They go straight to the station and both give interviews separately. 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:26.960 And then the next morning Randall invited them out to 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.760 his home, the home of the murder, and he was 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.720 videotaped for forty five minutes, going through the entire house 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:41.120 and basically excluding himself from not being a suspect because 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.560 every time he was offered an opportunity to, I guess 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:50.240 put himself out of harm's way. He didn't for example, 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.680 or the scuff marks in the door, are they fresh, 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.440 meaning maybe the house of burger eyes. Randall said, no, 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.600 they were Oh when was the last time you had 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:04.440 sex with your wife? 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:05.000 Kathy? 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:09.199 Randall said, oh, it's been many months, three or four months, 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:14.080 which if he were guilty, he would have probably said 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:19.840 within the last few days, explaining what turned out to 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.520 be a DNA match, and on and on and on, 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:29.319 and then Randall gave a polygraph test, and he voluntarily 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:33.920 gave his blood for DNA testing, and then he thought, 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.720 as soon as it comes back, he'll be excluded as 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.880 a suspect. But it didn't happen that way. 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:45.640 So the circumstantial evidence starts to mount. Right, it looked 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.319 a little strange that Randall and Judy had left town 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.520 the morning after the murders, and of course, with the 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.679 affair and it being a small town and everything else, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.080 people are going to think whatever they think. But at 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.520 the same time they put out these crazy theories, like 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.480 the idea that Randall might have been after the life insurance, 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.880 when we know that she only had ten thousand dollars 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.240 in life insurance anyway, which would barely cover the cost 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.640 of the funeral, and it never made any sense on 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.680 the face of it. Why would Randall want to make 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.960 his children, who nobody had anything to say other than 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.800 that he loved and they loved him. And why would 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.760 he want to make them effectively orphans or at a 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:28.960 minimum take even if you got away with it, take 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.000 their mother from them. Can you talk a little bit 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.199 about that, the circumstances, and then you know where ultimately 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.360 it went when the DNA test came back. 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:43.280 Well, you know, the first suspect, of course is the spouse. 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:51.040 But at the same time, when authorities focus on one person, 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:55.040 they get myopic and the tunnel vision, and they never 0:11:55.160 --> 0:12:00.640 look at anything else. And the investigation then is all 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:06.400 about finding information to confirm their suspicion or their bias 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:13.360 or their focus. In this case, though, nothing made sense. 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.760 As you point out initially, clearly Kathy was in a 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:22.400 fight for her life. She was in the bed, she 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:27.040 was accosted by her killer, and there was a life 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:35.040 and death struggle. Kathy was stabbed forty six times, almost 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:39.760 all of those were defensive wounds, and it took a 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:44.679 long time for finally a couple of stab wounds to 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:49.800 penetrate her organs and kill her. Randall is six two 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:54.760 hundred and thirty pounds. Kathy was very demure, very small. 0:12:55.160 --> 0:13:00.559 In addition to that, the alleged rape was clearly staged. 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.920 The body was moved from a normal sleeping position to 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:11.720 across the bed. The left leg was propped down, the 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.080 right leg was propped up on a table where an 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:19.040 alarm clock was No one could be raped in that position. 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.559 All the blood was consistent to the body being moved. 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:28.720 The underwear was neatly cut off with scissors of Kathy. 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:36.240 There was zero trauma to her vaginal area, zero none, zero. 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:43.880 And what the pathologist testified to in both trials was 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:49.520 that Kathy was dead before the seaman ever entered her vagina, 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.120 meaning that if someone had raped her, that person would 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.960 have raped a corpse. So you had an extraordinary amount 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:02.720 of information that clearly show that someone else committed this 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:05.000 crime other than Randall Patchet. 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.600 And there's a lot more to that. You know, the 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.440 idea that she was allegedly raped in that position with 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:13.880 one leg up on the nightstand, but that the alarm 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.880 clock was undisturbed didn't make any sense. Very little of 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.440 this made any sense, But the detectives ignored the statements 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.800 of Randall's children who had been in the trailer with 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.480 him all night, including one the little one that's left 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.320 in the bed with him, and they had told the 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.920 detectives that he had never left the trailer that night 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:34.640 and that they would have heard it if he had, 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.400 that he hadn't showered. He had no blood on him, 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:39.760 of course, which we know it was a bloody struggle. 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.320 They didn't search his residence or his car, nor did 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:48.560 they search Judy's residence or car, and an investigator clumsily, 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.560 supposedly accidentally, let's call it, that destroyed a bloody fingerprint 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:57.960 on Kathy's body. So six weeks go by October fifth, 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:03.000 nineteen ninety Randall, they come and rescue it, and then 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:04.840 you were charged with capital murderer. 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.680 I was at my in law's home, Ketty's parents. I 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.120 went over there, me, me and the kids. I guess 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.520 the police were following me or what. I don't know 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.320 how they knew I was there. It was in a 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.800 town about thirty miles away from where I live. Anyways, 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.840 there was a knock on the door and mother in 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.440 law said there was someone to see me. And I 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.040 went outside and the detective says, you're under the rest 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:37.600 for the murder of Katy. I said, you rested their 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.200 own person. They put the handcuffs on me and said, 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.600 let me go back in tell my children by no, 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:50.840 you can't do that. And man, my mind was spinning. 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.680 I didn't know what was happening. And I was gravely 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.800 concerned about my kids. They don't have a mother, now 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.360 they don't have a father, and what's going to happen 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.960 to them. But I was only in jail, I think 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:11.040 about three days. I didn't need a thing I could eat, 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.840 but anyhows, I got bonded out after about three days. 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:20.840 So that part of my incarceration was kind of quick. 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.040 But the other part, when I got to prison was 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:25.200 kind of long. 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.320 That's a whole different story death row. We'll get to that. 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:32.280 But Richard, in your book, you talk about the first trial, 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.320 and unlike most of the people that we've interviewed on 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.880 the show, Randall had not just competent but highly skilled 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.280 attorneys on the first trial. But they were up against 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:47.800 it because the state, well they broke the rules. To 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.640 put it mildly, they withheld evidence that I think would 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:55.520 be deemed to be exculpatory until the very last minute. 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.920 And there was other stuff going on. So can you 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.640 walk us through to first trial and explain to us 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:04.720 how it ended up the way it did. 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.800 Randall did have good lawyers, and they retained an expert 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:16.160 in DNA, and when the expert was cross examined, the 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:21.639 expert had to concede that the DNA testing of the 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:27.360 semen was consistent with the DNA of Randall, meaning that 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:32.920 the expert basically confirmed the state's case. So once Randall testified, 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:38.119 the jury was pretty uninterested because they made up their mind. 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.440 And there's more to this than that as well, because 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.000 what I was making reference to before is the fact 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.080 that there was blood at the scene, which is typical 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.000 in a case where someone had stabbed numerous times, because 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:55.280 the stabber in this case, the murderer would normally cut 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:59.199 themselves because the knife gets slippery and done the demonstrations 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:00.920 so many times, we just take a pen and you 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.360 stab a book or a table or whatever, and by 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.560 the third time down, your hand's already down on what 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.320 would be the blade. So that's why we almost always 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.720 find blood from the person doing the stabbing at the 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.560 crime scene, and in this case that was also the case. 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.200 Plus it was a violent struggle, and we know that 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.720 Kathy fought for her life and she scratched the assailant 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:25.480 numerous times. So there was blood found at the crime 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:29.600 scene that was not Kathy's and it was not Randal's. 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.320 You're in the first trial. There was one point in 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:36.520 time when the zerologist was on the stand testifying that 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:40.280 my bloodtop had changed from one day to the next, 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.119 and he had never seen that happen. And here's twenty 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.760 five years of work. I thought, well, I'm not going 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:48.359 to get on your feet. I'm going to go home today. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.920 So the rologist is up on the stand saying Randall's 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:56.240 blood type changed, which we know isn't a thing. It can't, 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:00.719 I mean. So the conclusion is that there was blood 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.399 from the scene that they were testing that did not 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.919 belong to Randal and was also not Kathy's, so mixed 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.000 in with Kathy's blood, someone else's blood was at the 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:15.879 crime scene, but the prosecution did not hand over that 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.840 evidence until after the DNA experts who had come to 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.359 town to testify had already left. And then Randall's lawyer 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.080 appropriately asked for a mistrial, and the judge seemingly inappropriately 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.760 denied the motion. So this is where things start to 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.600 really stack up and where you know, you can start 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.919 to understand or I can how the jury would have 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.840 found Randall guilty because it was hard for them to 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.439 get past the idea of how could his sperm have 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.639 ended up inside of her when he said he hadn't 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.400 seen her in such and such amount of time and 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.360 that is a you know, that's a pretty big albatross. 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.920 But this other evidence was either ignored with hell, there 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.560 were searches that were not done. There was all sorts 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.800 of leads left unexplored. 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:06.760 The huge pink elephant in the room was Randall's ex paramore, 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:11.320 Judy Smith. Neither side was willing to call her to 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:16.000 testify in the first trial. The state would have given 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.639 her immunity if she would have implicated Randall, but she 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:25.760 wouldn't do it. So Judy never testified in the first trial, 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.560 and the video that we talked about earlier of Randall 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.040 going through the crime scene with the detectives was not 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:37.359 played either. The interesting twist in this case is that 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:42.840 the jury found him guilty and recommended a life without 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:48.760 parole sentence. In that time, Alabama had an override statue, 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:53.480 and the trial judge overwrote it and sentenced Randall to death. 0:20:54.119 --> 0:21:00.359 So Randall, that's May twenty second, nineteen ninety two, us 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.439 through that awful, awful moment. 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:08.600 Well my twenty second, that was my birthday. Matter of fact, 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.679 the sentence, I mean that bothered me a lot. But 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:17.120 I could anybody think that I would do such a thing. 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.480 And then they're going to kill the wrong person. Somebody's 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.840 up there that really done this and it's not me. 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.720 The whole world is going to believe what the court says. 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.480 The court says I'm guilty and that I must be 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:36.320 put to death. 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:42.560 As a father myself, the idea of you being torn 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.119 away from your kids, who you now have even a 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:51.199 more intense responsibility to care for and protect after everything 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:54.520 they've been through and now they're effectively being orphaned, and 0:21:54.680 --> 0:22:00.800 you're thrust into the most horrible situation imaginable and being 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:02.399 torn away from the people. 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:03.680 You love the most at the same time. 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:08.359 Yeah, it's horrible and helpless. Flect. I can't help myself. 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:13.320 Nothing I can do is going to help my children. 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:25.280 This episode is sponsored by AIG, a leading global insurance company, 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:29.320 and Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, a leading international 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.920 law firm. The AIG pro Bono program provides free legal 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:37.800 services and other support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.840 most in need, and recently they announced that working to 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:43.600 reform the criminal justice system will become a key pillar 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:47.160 of the program's mission. Paul Weiss has long had an 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.439 unwavering commitment to providing impactful pro bono legal assistance to 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.520 the most vulnerable members of our society and in support 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:58.200 of the public interest, including extensive work in the criminal 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:06.600 justice area. 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:14.119 When I got to prison, it was it was I 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:18.160 don't know, about ten o'clock at night and never been 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:22.840 in a prison. Go in and it's all loud. People 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:25.760 locked up there. They're screaming, and you hear the metal 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:30.879 doors slamming shut and open, and that strip hole you 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:33.520 close off, and they spread you down with some kind 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:38.840 of chemical handcuffs and shackle on your legs and a 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:42.760 chain going from your hands to your feet and then 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:46.960 chain around your waist and all that lot and say 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:50.719 little bitty stay ups back to where death throw was, 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:55.240 and the guard would holler, and somebody would slide a 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.760 metal door open and it'd slide behind you and the 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:03.000 other inmates yelling at you and all this stuff and screaming, 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:09.520 and get back to my little cell, which is I 0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:15.679 think was five feet by eight or nine feet and 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:20.200 there's no lot in there, a lot boy but shot 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:27.320 and it was completely dark. And get in there. They 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:29.880 take the cuss off of me and slammed the door 0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:34.359 behind me and im and I'm all alone on a 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:41.400 different planet. And I can remember I kept thinking, I'm 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:43.120 gonna get out of here. I'm gonna get out here, 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:46.200 I'm gonna get out here. But after years went by, 0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:50.359 I remember carried up one night in the feet of 0:24:50.480 --> 0:24:55.239 position and just won't to give up, and I'm going 0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:58.240 to die. I don't die in this place, and nobody don't. 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:00.959 The whole world don't care of world to be glad 0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:07.880 when I do. But finally I got closer to God 0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:11.119 than I've ever been in my life. I was confident 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.600 that God wouldn't want to let me die for something 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:19.120 I didn't do, and he didn't. You get me out 0:25:19.119 --> 0:25:24.480 of there through Richard Jeffish. 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:29.840 Wow, Richard, to the table's turn. When you got involved? 0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:34.359 But how did you come to be involved? And I'm 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:37.880 so fascinated by the process and the way you describe 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:40.720 it in the book, the decisions that you had to make, 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:44.359 which are actually literally life and death decisions because you 0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:48.280 are the backstop. Right Have you failed, Randall would have 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:51.240 been put to death. So can you pick us through 0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:52.160 that whole process. 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:58.480 The way that I met Brenda Massingil, who later and 0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:02.439 currently became Randall's wife, they hardly knew each other, but 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:06.440 I was speaking at the sixteenth Street Baptist Church in 0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:10.920 nineteen ninety two, that's where the four young girls were 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:14.600 murdered in the bombing of the church, and we were 0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:18.240 speaking on the death penalty. It was a kind of 0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:22.239 a small rally. Brenda approached me after I spoke and 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:24.959 asked me if I had heard of Randall's case. I hadn't, 0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:30.200 and I refused to intervene at that point because he 0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:33.920 was well represented and I didn't expect ever to hear 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:37.320 from anyone again about that. And then a few years later, 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:41.760 in ninety five, Randall's family called the office through Brenda 0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:44.320 and wanted to meet with me. Randall's case had been 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:51.280 reversed because the prosecution had failed to disclose the blood 0:26:51.400 --> 0:26:57.399 typing evidence that was, as you say, exculpatory, and because 0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:00.960 of that Randall was given a new trial. So when 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:06.480