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Speaker 1: In the late nineteen eighties. Randall Paget was a poultry

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Speaker 1: farmer and family man in the small town of Arab, Alabama, who,

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Speaker 1: by his own admission, made the biggest mistake of his

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Speaker 1: life when he stepped out and his wife Kathy with

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Speaker 1: a coworker.

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Speaker 2: Named Judy Smith.

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Speaker 1: The affair was on and off again over the years,

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Speaker 1: and during one of those on again times, Judy and

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Speaker 1: Randall took a road trip to Florida, only to be

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Speaker 1: awoken the first night they were there with some harrowing news.

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Speaker 1: On August seventeenth, nineteen ninety Cathy's body had been discovered

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Speaker 1: in her bed. She had endured a violent struggle and

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Speaker 1: had sustained forty six stab wounds, which ultimately killed her,

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Speaker 1: and to make matters worse, seamen was found inside of her.

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Speaker 1: Even though there was no indication that she had been raped.

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Speaker 1: The night before this Florida trip, that Paget children had

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Speaker 1: stayed with Randall in his tiny trailer, they knew that

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Speaker 1: he hadn't left in the middle of the night to

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Speaker 1: do anything, much less kill their mother. No signs of

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Speaker 1: a break in at her home, Randall became the suspect,

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Speaker 1: and he was arrested when the seamen turned.

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Speaker 3: Out to be his.

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Speaker 1: The state would commit misconduct during the trial, involving blood

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Speaker 1: found at the crime scene that didn't match Kathy or Randall.

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Speaker 1: This misconduct was one of the factors that led ultimately

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Speaker 1: to Randall being sentenced to death. The prosecutor misconduct would

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Speaker 1: result in a retrial, and a defense investigation would uncover

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Speaker 1: some of the craziest perversities, proving that Paget had been

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Speaker 1: innocent all along and rescuing Randall from death.

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Speaker 3: Row is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 2: That's me.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, and today I'm actually I kind of butterflies.

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Speaker 1: I gotta be honest because today you're going to hear

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Speaker 1: a story that I've been wanting to tell for as

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Speaker 1: long as I've known about it. And when you hear it,

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Speaker 1: you'll understand why. Because this is one of the craziest

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Speaker 1: stories I believe in the history of American jurisprudence. And

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Speaker 1: to help tell the story, we have an attorney. He's

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Speaker 1: a personal hero of mine. Richard S. Jaffy is with us.

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Speaker 1: So Richard, Welcome to Wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here, Jason, and today.

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Speaker 1: We're going to be telling the incredible saga of Randall.

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Speaker 1: Paget Randall, as I always say, I'm sorry you have

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Speaker 1: to be here, but I'm happy you're here.

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Speaker 2: I'm real happy to be here. I've been in a

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Speaker 2: lot worse places.

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Speaker 1: Well said Randall. Let's start with you, because you grew

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Speaker 1: up in a small town in Alabama, a town called Arab.

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Speaker 1: I had never heard of Arab, But can you just

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Speaker 1: give us an idea of what your life was like

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Speaker 1: before everything went so crazy?

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Speaker 2: Okay, the town has pronounced Ara. Yeah. I grew up

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Speaker 2: in the fifties. Well, a matter of fact, I was

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Speaker 2: born in nineteen fifty small town population probably about seven

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Speaker 2: thousand now. Grew up on a farm. For this simple life.

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Speaker 2: I had good parents. They worked hard, they carried me

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Speaker 2: to church, and well, I went to college. I got

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Speaker 2: a degree in business and started to work with this plant.

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Speaker 2: And I always loved outside, and so I ended up

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Speaker 2: buying a poetry farm, got married, had two children, and

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Speaker 2: had a pretty good life. Thirty two acres of land

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Speaker 2: and the house had the land paid for, the house

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Speaker 2: almost paid for, and I made probably the biggest mistake

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Speaker 2: in my life. I had an extramarital affair.

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Speaker 1: When you're referring to Judy Smith, Now you used to

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Speaker 1: work together when all that started. Was it when you

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Speaker 1: already had the poultry farm?

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Speaker 2: No, it was was eating corporation, another plant, and we

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Speaker 2: lived close together. One day here and work, she had

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Speaker 2: a swimming pool. Something was said about going skinny dipping.

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Speaker 2: So I remember when night we'd been working late and

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Speaker 2: almost at home, and I seen her car in front

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Speaker 2: of me and she pulled up in her driveway. So

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Speaker 2: I kept thinking about the skinny dipping joke, so I

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Speaker 2: put my headlights in behind her, trying to scare her.

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Speaker 2: I figured she knew it was me, and then I

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Speaker 2: went on home and didn't think anything else about it.

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Speaker 2: Or the next day at worked, she said, well did

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Speaker 2: you chicken out last night? So next night, same thing.

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Speaker 2: I got almost her place, which was just before I

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Speaker 2: got to my place, the he car is again pulled in.

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Speaker 2: I pulled in, let's go skinny. Didn't well, she starts

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Speaker 2: stripping off clothes. I thought it's all a big joke.

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Speaker 2: So we got totally naked and wanted to do the deed,

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Speaker 2: and I said no, I'm going home. Well, I did

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Speaker 2: a long weekend, and all weekend the devil got my

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Speaker 2: brain and said, you should just do it once. You

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Speaker 2: should just do it once. And then did it once,

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Speaker 2: and then it just more and more and more, and

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Speaker 2: I was I was miserable. I guess it was mainly

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Speaker 2: six and my wife and I Kathy, her name was Kathy.

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Speaker 2: We had separated and she got murdered. I stay up

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Speaker 2: numerous times, and right after she was dead, they said,

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Speaker 2: my children, I learned later, who were six and eleven

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Speaker 2: at the time, they really want that found the body

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Speaker 2: of their mother. And I'm thinking about all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I got physically ill when I first found out

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Speaker 2: about it. But it was like a nightmare, especially when

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Speaker 2: the police were kind of putting their finger at me.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't even mourn the death of my wife with

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Speaker 2: all that hanging over me. And I felt a lot

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Speaker 2: of guilt. If I had been home with my wife

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Speaker 2: where I should have been, she would probably be a lie.

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Speaker 2: And well, the police accused me of doing it, which

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Speaker 2: I can understand why. I've seen all the TV movies

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Speaker 2: about the affairs and all that stuff, But DNA was

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Speaker 2: brand new back then. It was nineteen ninety when she

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Speaker 2: was killed, and I was just learning about doing Most

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Speaker 2: people didn't know about that stuff back then, so I

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Speaker 2: willingally gave my blood sample and thought, man, I can't

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Speaker 2: wait till the UNITESK gets back, so they will start

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Speaker 2: looking at the right place, because I wanted every kill

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Speaker 2: my wife to be found.

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Speaker 1: I read about your case in Richard's amazing book. It's

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Speaker 1: called Quest for Justice Defending the Damned by Richard S. Jaffe,

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Speaker 1: and now there's a second edition out. And this case

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Speaker 1: is extraordinary in so many ways. But I can understand

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Speaker 1: why the jury voted to convict you because even though

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Speaker 1: there was significant evidence that it couldn't have been you,

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Speaker 1: but this one thing was really almost impossible for your

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Speaker 1: attorneys to overcome. And Richard, you talk about this in

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Speaker 1: your book. So this murder happened on August seventeenth of nineteen.

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Speaker 4: Ninety, Randall and his paramour, Judy Smith, went to Florida

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Speaker 4: on a scuba diving trip. It's about six or seven

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Speaker 4: hours from arab While in Florida on the evening of

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Speaker 4: August sixteenth, the early mornings of August seventeenth, nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 4: Randall's asleep. They just got there and a phone call

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Speaker 4: comes from Randall's brother saying that his wife Kathy was murdered.

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Speaker 4: Randall immediately went and threw up, and then Judy and

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Speaker 4: Randall immediately turned around and drove back, and they drove

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Speaker 4: right to the Sheriff's department. The interesting thing is that

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Speaker 4: you would think that Randall was so shook up, so distraught,

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Speaker 4: that Judy would have driven the whole way back, But

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Speaker 4: apparently Judy was up all night and couldn't keep the

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Speaker 4: car in the road on these windy rural roads in Florida,

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Speaker 4: and after about thirty or forty minutes, they were about

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Speaker 4: colliding with everything, and Randall had to drive the entire

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Speaker 4: way back and Judy went to sleep in the passenger side.

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Speaker 4: They go straight to the station and both give interviews separately.

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Speaker 4: And then the next morning Randall invited them out to

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Speaker 4: his home, the home of the murder, and he was

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Speaker 4: videotaped for forty five minutes, going through the entire house

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Speaker 4: and basically excluding himself from not being a suspect because

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Speaker 4: every time he was offered an opportunity to, I guess

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Speaker 4: put himself out of harm's way. He didn't for example,

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Speaker 4: or the scuff marks in the door, are they fresh,

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Speaker 4: meaning maybe the house of burger eyes. Randall said, no,

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Speaker 4: they were Oh when was the last time you had

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Speaker 4: sex with your wife?

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Speaker 2: Kathy?

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Speaker 4: Randall said, oh, it's been many months, three or four months,

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Speaker 4: which if he were guilty, he would have probably said

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Speaker 4: within the last few days, explaining what turned out to

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Speaker 4: be a DNA match, and on and on and on,

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Speaker 4: and then Randall gave a polygraph test, and he voluntarily

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Speaker 4: gave his blood for DNA testing, and then he thought,

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Speaker 4: as soon as it comes back, he'll be excluded as

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Speaker 4: a suspect. But it didn't happen that way.

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Speaker 1: So the circumstantial evidence starts to mount. Right, it looked

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Speaker 1: a little strange that Randall and Judy had left town

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Speaker 1: the morning after the murders, and of course, with the

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Speaker 1: affair and it being a small town and everything else,

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Speaker 1: people are going to think whatever they think. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time they put out these crazy theories, like

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Speaker 1: the idea that Randall might have been after the life insurance,

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Speaker 1: when we know that she only had ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: in life insurance anyway, which would barely cover the cost

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Speaker 1: of the funeral, and it never made any sense on

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Speaker 1: the face of it. Why would Randall want to make

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Speaker 1: his children, who nobody had anything to say other than

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Speaker 1: that he loved and they loved him. And why would

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Speaker 1: he want to make them effectively orphans or at a

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Speaker 1: minimum take even if you got away with it, take

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Speaker 1: their mother from them. Can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that, the circumstances, and then you know where ultimately

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Speaker 1: it went when the DNA test came back.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, the first suspect, of course is the spouse.

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Speaker 4: But at the same time, when authorities focus on one person,

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Speaker 4: they get myopic and the tunnel vision, and they never

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Speaker 4: look at anything else. And the investigation then is all

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Speaker 4: about finding information to confirm their suspicion or their bias

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Speaker 4: or their focus. In this case, though, nothing made sense.

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Speaker 4: As you point out initially, clearly Kathy was in a

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Speaker 4: fight for her life. She was in the bed, she

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Speaker 4: was accosted by her killer, and there was a life

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Speaker 4: and death struggle. Kathy was stabbed forty six times, almost

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Speaker 4: all of those were defensive wounds, and it took a

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Speaker 4: long time for finally a couple of stab wounds to

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Speaker 4: penetrate her organs and kill her. Randall is six two

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Speaker 4: hundred and thirty pounds. Kathy was very demure, very small.

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Speaker 4: In addition to that, the alleged rape was clearly staged.

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Speaker 4: The body was moved from a normal sleeping position to

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Speaker 4: across the bed. The left leg was propped down, the

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Speaker 4: right leg was propped up on a table where an

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Speaker 4: alarm clock was No one could be raped in that position.

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Speaker 4: All the blood was consistent to the body being moved.

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Speaker 4: The underwear was neatly cut off with scissors of Kathy.

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Speaker 4: There was zero trauma to her vaginal area, zero none, zero.

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Speaker 4: And what the pathologist testified to in both trials was

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Speaker 4: that Kathy was dead before the seaman ever entered her vagina,

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Speaker 4: meaning that if someone had raped her, that person would

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Speaker 4: have raped a corpse. So you had an extraordinary amount

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Speaker 4: of information that clearly show that someone else committed this

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Speaker 4: crime other than Randall Patchet.

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot more to that. You know, the

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Speaker 1: idea that she was allegedly raped in that position with

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Speaker 1: one leg up on the nightstand, but that the alarm

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Speaker 1: clock was undisturbed didn't make any sense. Very little of

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Speaker 1: this made any sense, But the detectives ignored the statements

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Speaker 1: of Randall's children who had been in the trailer with

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Speaker 1: him all night, including one the little one that's left

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Speaker 1: in the bed with him, and they had told the

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Speaker 1: detectives that he had never left the trailer that night

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Speaker 1: and that they would have heard it if he had,

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Speaker 1: that he hadn't showered. He had no blood on him,

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Speaker 1: of course, which we know it was a bloody struggle.

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Speaker 1: They didn't search his residence or his car, nor did

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Speaker 1: they search Judy's residence or car, and an investigator clumsily,

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Speaker 1: supposedly accidentally, let's call it, that destroyed a bloody fingerprint

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Speaker 1: on Kathy's body. So six weeks go by October fifth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety Randall, they come and rescue it, and then

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Speaker 1: you were charged with capital murderer.

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Speaker 2: I was at my in law's home, Ketty's parents. I

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Speaker 2: went over there, me, me and the kids. I guess

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Speaker 2: the police were following me or what. I don't know

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Speaker 2: how they knew I was there. It was in a

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Speaker 2: town about thirty miles away from where I live. Anyways,

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Speaker 2: there was a knock on the door and mother in

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Speaker 2: law said there was someone to see me. And I

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Speaker 2: went outside and the detective says, you're under the rest

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Speaker 2: for the murder of Katy. I said, you rested their

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Speaker 2: own person. They put the handcuffs on me and said,

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Speaker 2: let me go back in tell my children by no,

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Speaker 2: you can't do that. And man, my mind was spinning.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what was happening. And I was gravely

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Speaker 2: concerned about my kids. They don't have a mother, now

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Speaker 2: they don't have a father, and what's going to happen

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Speaker 2: to them. But I was only in jail, I think

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Speaker 2: about three days. I didn't need a thing I could eat,

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Speaker 2: but anyhows, I got bonded out after about three days.

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Speaker 2: So that part of my incarceration was kind of quick.

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Speaker 2: But the other part, when I got to prison was

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Speaker 2: kind of long.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole different story death row. We'll get to that.

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Speaker 1: But Richard, in your book, you talk about the first trial,

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Speaker 1: and unlike most of the people that we've interviewed on

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Speaker 1: the show, Randall had not just competent but highly skilled

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Speaker 1: attorneys on the first trial. But they were up against

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Speaker 1: it because the state, well they broke the rules. To

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Speaker 1: put it mildly, they withheld evidence that I think would

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Speaker 1: be deemed to be exculpatory until the very last minute.

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Speaker 1: And there was other stuff going on. So can you

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Speaker 1: walk us through to first trial and explain to us

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Speaker 1: how it ended up the way it did.

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Speaker 4: Randall did have good lawyers, and they retained an expert

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Speaker 4: in DNA, and when the expert was cross examined, the

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Speaker 4: expert had to concede that the DNA testing of the

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Speaker 4: semen was consistent with the DNA of Randall, meaning that

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Speaker 4: the expert basically confirmed the state's case. So once Randall testified,

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Speaker 4: the jury was pretty uninterested because they made up their mind.

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Speaker 1: And there's more to this than that as well, because

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Speaker 1: what I was making reference to before is the fact

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Speaker 1: that there was blood at the scene, which is typical

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Speaker 1: in a case where someone had stabbed numerous times, because

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Speaker 1: the stabber in this case, the murderer would normally cut

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Speaker 1: themselves because the knife gets slippery and done the demonstrations

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Speaker 1: so many times, we just take a pen and you

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Speaker 1: stab a book or a table or whatever, and by

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Speaker 1: the third time down, your hand's already down on what

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Speaker 1: would be the blade. So that's why we almost always

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Speaker 1: find blood from the person doing the stabbing at the

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Speaker 1: crime scene, and in this case that was also the case.

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Speaker 1: Plus it was a violent struggle, and we know that

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Speaker 1: Kathy fought for her life and she scratched the assailant

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Speaker 1: numerous times. So there was blood found at the crime

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Speaker 1: scene that was not Kathy's and it was not Randal's.

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Speaker 2: You're in the first trial. There was one point in

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Speaker 2: time when the zerologist was on the stand testifying that

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Speaker 2: my bloodtop had changed from one day to the next,

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Speaker 2: and he had never seen that happen. And here's twenty

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Speaker 2: five years of work. I thought, well, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to get on your feet. I'm going to go home today.

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Speaker 1: So the rologist is up on the stand saying Randall's

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Speaker 1: blood type changed, which we know isn't a thing. It can't,

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Speaker 1: I mean. So the conclusion is that there was blood

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Speaker 1: from the scene that they were testing that did not

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Speaker 1: belong to Randal and was also not Kathy's, so mixed

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Speaker 1: in with Kathy's blood, someone else's blood was at the

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Speaker 1: crime scene, but the prosecution did not hand over that

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Speaker 1: evidence until after the DNA experts who had come to

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Speaker 1: town to testify had already left. And then Randall's lawyer

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Speaker 1: appropriately asked for a mistrial, and the judge seemingly inappropriately

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Speaker 1: denied the motion. So this is where things start to

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Speaker 1: really stack up and where you know, you can start

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Speaker 1: to understand or I can how the jury would have

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Speaker 1: found Randall guilty because it was hard for them to

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Speaker 1: get past the idea of how could his sperm have

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Speaker 1: ended up inside of her when he said he hadn't

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Speaker 1: seen her in such and such amount of time and

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Speaker 1: that is a you know, that's a pretty big albatross.

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Speaker 1: But this other evidence was either ignored with hell, there

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Speaker 1: were searches that were not done. There was all sorts

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Speaker 1: of leads left unexplored.

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Speaker 4: The huge pink elephant in the room was Randall's ex paramore,

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Speaker 4: Judy Smith. Neither side was willing to call her to

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Speaker 4: testify in the first trial. The state would have given

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Speaker 4: her immunity if she would have implicated Randall, but she

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Speaker 4: wouldn't do it. So Judy never testified in the first trial,

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Speaker 4: and the video that we talked about earlier of Randall

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Speaker 4: going through the crime scene with the detectives was not

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Speaker 4: played either. The interesting twist in this case is that

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Speaker 4: the jury found him guilty and recommended a life without

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Speaker 4: parole sentence. In that time, Alabama had an override statue,

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Speaker 4: and the trial judge overwrote it and sentenced Randall to death.

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Speaker 1: So Randall, that's May twenty second, nineteen ninety two, us

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Speaker 1: through that awful, awful moment.

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Speaker 2: Well my twenty second, that was my birthday. Matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: the sentence, I mean that bothered me a lot. But

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Speaker 2: I could anybody think that I would do such a thing.

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Speaker 2: And then they're going to kill the wrong person. Somebody's

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Speaker 2: up there that really done this and it's not me.

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Speaker 2: The whole world is going to believe what the court says.

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Speaker 2: The court says I'm guilty and that I must be

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Speaker 2: put to death.

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Speaker 1: As a father myself, the idea of you being torn

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Speaker 1: away from your kids, who you now have even a

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Speaker 1: more intense responsibility to care for and protect after everything

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Speaker 1: they've been through and now they're effectively being orphaned, and

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Speaker 1: you're thrust into the most horrible situation imaginable and being

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Speaker 1: torn away from the people.

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Speaker 3: You love the most at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's horrible and helpless. Flect. I can't help myself.

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Speaker 2: Nothing I can do is going to help my children.

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Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by AIG, a leading global insurance company,

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Speaker 1: and Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, a leading international

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Speaker 1: law firm. The AIG pro Bono program provides free legal

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Speaker 1: services and other support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals

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Speaker 1: most in need, and recently they announced that working to

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Speaker 1: reform the criminal justice system will become a key pillar

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Speaker 1: of the program's mission. Paul Weiss has long had an

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Speaker 1: unwavering commitment to providing impactful pro bono legal assistance to

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Speaker 1: the most vulnerable members of our society and in support

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Speaker 1: of the public interest, including extensive work in the criminal

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Speaker 1: justice area.

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Speaker 2: When I got to prison, it was it was I

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Speaker 2: don't know, about ten o'clock at night and never been

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Speaker 2: in a prison. Go in and it's all loud. People

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Speaker 2: locked up there. They're screaming, and you hear the metal

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Speaker 2: doors slamming shut and open, and that strip hole you

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Speaker 2: close off, and they spread you down with some kind

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Speaker 2: of chemical handcuffs and shackle on your legs and a

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Speaker 2: chain going from your hands to your feet and then

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Speaker 2: chain around your waist and all that lot and say

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Speaker 2: little bitty stay ups back to where death throw was,

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Speaker 2: and the guard would holler, and somebody would slide a

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Speaker 2: metal door open and it'd slide behind you and the

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Speaker 2: other inmates yelling at you and all this stuff and screaming,

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Speaker 2: and get back to my little cell, which is I

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Speaker 2: think was five feet by eight or nine feet and

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Speaker 2: there's no lot in there, a lot boy but shot

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Speaker 2: and it was completely dark. And get in there. They

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Speaker 2: take the cuss off of me and slammed the door

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Speaker 2: behind me and im and I'm all alone on a

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Speaker 2: different planet. And I can remember I kept thinking, I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna get out of here. I'm gonna get out here,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna get out here. But after years went by,

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Speaker 2: I remember carried up one night in the feet of

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Speaker 2: position and just won't to give up, and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to die. I don't die in this place, and nobody don't.

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Speaker 2: The whole world don't care of world to be glad

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Speaker 2: when I do. But finally I got closer to God

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Speaker 2: than I've ever been in my life. I was confident

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Speaker 2: that God wouldn't want to let me die for something

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Speaker 2: I didn't do, and he didn't. You get me out

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Speaker 2: of there through Richard Jeffish.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Richard, to the table's turn. When you got involved?

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Speaker 1: But how did you come to be involved? And I'm

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Speaker 1: so fascinated by the process and the way you describe

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Speaker 1: it in the book, the decisions that you had to make,

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Speaker 1: which are actually literally life and death decisions because you

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Speaker 1: are the backstop. Right Have you failed, Randall would have

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Speaker 1: been put to death. So can you pick us through

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Speaker 1: that whole process.

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Speaker 4: The way that I met Brenda Massingil, who later and

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Speaker 4: currently became Randall's wife, they hardly knew each other, but

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Speaker 4: I was speaking at the sixteenth Street Baptist Church in

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety two, that's where the four young girls were

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Speaker 4: murdered in the bombing of the church, and we were

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Speaker 4: speaking on the death penalty. It was a kind of

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Speaker 4: a small rally. Brenda approached me after I spoke and

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Speaker 4: asked me if I had heard of Randall's case. I hadn't,

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Speaker 4: and I refused to intervene at that point because he

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Speaker 4: was well represented and I didn't expect ever to hear

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Speaker 4: from anyone again about that. And then a few years later,

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Speaker 4: in ninety five, Randall's family called the office through Brenda

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Speaker 4: and wanted to meet with me. Randall's case had been

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Speaker 4: reversed because the prosecution had failed to disclose the blood

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Speaker 4: typing evidence that was, as you say, exculpatory, and because

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Speaker 4: of that Randall was given a new trial. So when

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Speaker 4: I got involved, I began to learn immediately all kinds

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Speaker 4: of things about Judy, about her history, about how she

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Speaker 4: was totally obsessed with Randall to the point where she

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Speaker 4: actually constructed in her home a duplication of Randall's children's bedroom.

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Speaker 4: And Judy had actually confronted Kathy prior to the murder

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Speaker 4: in a church parking lot. Judy had a raincoat on

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Speaker 4: and sunglasses on a Wednesday night. Cathy went to church

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Speaker 4: every Wednesday night. Judy was hiding in Kathy's backseat. There

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Speaker 4: was a confrontation. A church deacon broke it up.

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Speaker 2: When Kathy told me about that, Judy came up with

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Speaker 2: you know, I just wanted to talk to her. And

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Speaker 2: I wasn't dressed up thing more than my normal dress,

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Speaker 2: and so I don't know, I guess I'll let the

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Speaker 2: devil tak me into kind of believing that Judy wasn't

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Speaker 2: anything that was no good and instead of believing it

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Speaker 2: can't be like I should have. And I can't explain it.

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Speaker 2: It was just a crazy time in my life.

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Speaker 4: The problem that Judy was having was patience. Because Randall

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Speaker 4: separated from Kathy, several times, but each time came back

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Speaker 4: to her. On this occasion, when the brutal murder happened,

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Speaker 4: it became clear to me that Judy wasn't going to

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Speaker 4: take the chance of the divorce not going through. So

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Speaker 4: apparently she took matters in her own hands. And then

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Speaker 4: now we have a gory, horrific, unimaginable crime scene that

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Speaker 4: ultimately led to Randall's arrest, conviction, and death sentence.

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Speaker 1: Randall, were there any other moments besides the church parking

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Speaker 1: lot incident that kind of made you think to yourself,

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Speaker 1: you know, Judy might just be a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Off thinking back through all the stuff. I remember one time,

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Speaker 2: when this was before Kethy got killed, when I was

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Speaker 2: at Judy's place and I saw a zip blocked bag

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Speaker 2: that had some I'm a smoker, I had some cigarette

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Speaker 2: butts in it and some fingernail clippings. What is this?

434
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 2: And Oh, I love you so much. I wanted to

435
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: save these, you know, And I said, well, what a

436
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: thing to say, is what I'm thinking. But thinking back,

437
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: you know, she might have been up to some mischief

438
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: with that, so I don't.

439
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: Know, And then, you know, then things get weirder, right,

440
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: you are investigator. I'm forgetting his name now. Who was

441
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: the investigator in this case.

442
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 4: Our investigator was Rick Blake, and he was our in

443
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 4: house investigator, and he was amazing. What was really fascinating

444
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 4: is is that after the murder, Judy took two weeks

445
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 4: off from work, two weeks off, and we developed evidence

446
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 4: that Judy had scratch marks all up and down her arms,

447
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 4: meaning that she was apparently in some type of vicious

448
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 4: life or death struggle, and so she stayed at home

449
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 4: until those scratches healed. Another thing is is that Judy's

450
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 4: blood was never tested, her DNA was never tested, her

451
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 4: home was never searched, her car was never searched. The police,

452
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, completely ignored her as I suspect.

453
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: Listen, if somebody had done this work that you did

454
00:30:54,880 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: all those years later. Initially, it's entirely possible, maybe even likely,

455
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: that the trial, the first trial, would have ended up

456
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: in an acquittal, because there's more right. There's also a

457
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: truck driver who came forward who said that he had

458
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: seen a car matching the description of Judy's car, which

459
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: was a very distinct car right a hubcap of a

460
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: certain color, leaving Kathy's home in the middle of the night.

461
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: That's pretty powerful. It's hard to come up with a

462
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: good excuse for that. But then comes the craziest part

463
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: of all of this, right and again, your investigator had

464
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: you know. I reread the chapter in your book this

465
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: morning talking about how he had gone to beauty parlors

466
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: trying to find people who knew Judy, thinking that in

467
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: the town, a small town with only a few beauty parlors,

468
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: she might have frequented one of them. And sure enough,

469
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: he found people that knew her. And what he discovered

470
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: from that point turns out to be really important evidence

471
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: and really bizarre.

472
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 4: He found three different people that told him clearly that

473
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 4: Judy had this fetish with saving her then ex husband

474
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 4: Tommy Smith Simon and putting it in milkshakes.

475
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: I can remember before Kathy was killed, usually after six,

476
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 2: we would both I'm talking about Judy would go up

477
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 2: to sleep. I don't know weeks before Kathy was killed.

478
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 2: After six, Judy she would immediately get up, go to

479
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: the bedroom. Then, while I'm sitting in there in prison,

480
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what was she doing in the bathroom? Was

481
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: she saving some stuff? I don't know, But I don't.

482
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 4: Know Rick Blake, our investigator. He found three different people.

483
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 4: We tried to get all three to court, but we

484
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 4: could only get one, the milkshake lady. She was one

485
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: of the three that Judy had discuss this whipt on

486
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 4: many occasions, and we hauled her to testify and it

487
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 4: was dynamic and powerful, and the prosecution did everything they

488
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 4: could to keep it out.

489
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I've told this story to a fair number

490
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: of people and it doesn't get crazier than that. And

491
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: that wasn't all though, Richard, the trial itself.

492
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 4: The biggest decision that I've ever had to make in

493
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 4: any trial was whether to call Judy to testify. That

494
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 4: was crucial because again the prosecution kept holding out immunity

495
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 4: if she testify against Randall. We were back in the

496
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 4: judge's chambers. Time would run out. The judge looked up

497
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 4: and said, all right, call your next witness, and I said,

498
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 4: we're going to call Judy Smith. And at that point

499
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 4: the prosecutors jaws rocked to the floor. It was stunned

500
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 4: silence because no one believed we had the I guess

501
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 4: they guts to call her, and we did, and her

502
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 4: testimony was the most both powerful and bizarre testimony anyone

503
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 4: could envision. On the one hand, she testified that she

504
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 4: prayed every night. She loved Randall so much that every

505
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 4: night she prayed that something would happen to Kathy and

506
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 4: that she would get killed in a car wreck so

507
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 4: she could be with Randall, and she still loved him.

508
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 4: When I asked her about her ability to enter the home,

509
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 4: it slipped from her mouth almost that there was a

510
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 4: and I knew she meant key that was hidden in

511
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 4: a particular place for Randall's children to get when they

512
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 4: return home from school. Well, she knew about it where

513
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 4: it was hidden, and that slipped out of her mouth almost.

514
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 4: She tried to take it back, but she couldn't. And

515
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,959
Speaker 4: Drawors remembered that during deliberations. But the most powerful thing

516
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 4: was and again you point out something very, very so crucial,

517
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 4: as every question asked of a witness in a death

518
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 4: penalty case, especially a witness like her, Judy could be

519
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 4: the bomb that destroy you. It could be the landmine

520
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 4: that blows the case up. So every question had to

521
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 4: be so measured. But I asked her, if that is

522
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 4: Randall's DNA in Kathy's vaginal canal, how do you think

523
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 4: it got there, it's an objectionable question, but the prosecution

524
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 4: didn't object because clearly they thought that she would either

525
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 4: say I have no idea, but her answer was if

526
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 4: that was Randall's DNA, and it had to have come

527
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 4: from me in that standing room only courtroom and you

528
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 4: could hear a pin drop.

529
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,439
Speaker 1: So the jury now has heard her try to walk

530
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: back her explanation of how she could have gotten into

531
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: the house, because, of course, one of the things that

532
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: the prosecution theory hinged on was the idea that there

533
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 1: was no break in. There was no signs of breaking

534
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: and entering, so it must have been somebody logically who

535
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: knew Kathy and was admitted into the house. But now

536
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: that the key and the location of the key was

537
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: known to Judy and that was out in the open,

538
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: that was one thing. And now, of course her making

539
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: this unbelievable admission in open court is a huge moment.

540
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: But even still, the jury goes to deliberate Randall, what

541
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: did you think they were gone for close to three

542
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: full days. Did you allow yourself to hope that they

543
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: would come back with a not growthy verdict or were

544
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 1: you what were you thinking?

545
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think I slipped any here those three days,

546
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: going back and forth to the jail, which was to

547
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,479
Speaker 2: cross the street in the courthouse, but I had.

548
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: Hope and Richard. So the jury's out two and a

549
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: half days and the judge is basically at his wits end,

550
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: I would say, and is on the verge of declaring

551
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: a mistrial, which would have been devastating. Did you talk

552
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: about this in the book as well? How the judge

553
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: called you and the prosecution team into his chambers, I

554
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: guess right for a conference.

555
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 4: He did, and he was very clear. He said, gentlemen,

556
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 4: I'm going to declara mistrial. I don't believe in forcing

557
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 4: drawers to give up o their feelings and beliefs. And

558
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 4: I tried to talk him out of it, and he went, no,

559
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 4: I've made up my mind. And this is a judge

560
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 4: that when he makes up his mind, he does. As

561
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 4: we filed out into the courtroom, I was the last

562
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 4: one other than he was behind me. As we began

563
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 4: to enter the courtroom, I turned around, I looked at

564
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 4: him right in the eyes, and I went, judge just

565
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 4: asked the jurors if they think they can come to

566
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 4: a verdict. He didn't say anything. We sat down, he

567
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 4: faced the jury. He said, ladies and gentlemen, I have

568
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 4: no choice but two. And then he paused just for

569
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 4: a second, and he turned to his left and looked

570
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 4: me right in the eye, and we locked. And then

571
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 4: he turned back around to the jury and he did

572
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 4: a one eighty. He said, is there anyone on the

573
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 4: jury that believes that you could come to a unanimous verdict?

574
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 4: And two or three people nodded their heads and said yes.

575
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 4: I was stunned or a reversal. The jury went back

576
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 4: to deliberate. The courthouse continued to be totally packed, standing

577
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 4: room only, and people were basically in prayer. And forty

578
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 4: five minutes later they came out and it was not guilty.

579
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: Now, I'm not gonna lie. I cried this morning when

580
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: I read the book and I knew the story, I'd

581
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: read it before. Randy, what was that moment like when

582
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: you were vindicated and you were on the verge of

583
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: being returned to your family, to your community, your good

584
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: name was given back to you. I can't imagine. Can

585
00:39:58,520 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: please explain?

586
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if I can, But like I

587
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: had been held underwater to the point of drownding, I

588
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 2: had to come up and I'm at the point where

589
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: I'm either going to drowned or not, and then the

590
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,479
Speaker 2: not guilty bird it just pulls me up into the air.

591
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: I can breathe again, and I'm going to live. It

592
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: was just total jubilation.

593
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 1: And you hadn't really slept or eating in a few days,

594
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: as you said, so.

595
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: The judge, I remember Judd saying, and you're free to go,

596
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 2: mister Paget and Jaylor came over to take me back

597
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: to the jail, would have someone to get my stuff,

598
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: and I going back to jail and could keep my stuff,

599
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 2: you know. And then my son, who had grown and

600
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: got his driver's license, got to drive his daddy home.

601
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,439
Speaker 2: Was just wonderful, wonderful, Richard, What about you?

602
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 4: It was a feeling of elation that it's really hard

603
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 4: to imagine unless you have heard not guilties on death

604
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 4: fumily cases before. This being a retrial made it all

605
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 4: that much more unimaginable.

606
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: No, you have the best job in the world, at

607
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: least on days like that. You do. Now, before we

608
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: go to the closing of the show, talk about the

609
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: juror who approached you on your way out of the courtroom.

610
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 2: Richard.

611
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: Probably the credit for the jury's correct not guilty verdict,

612
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 1: A lot of it goes to her at.

613
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 2: The end of the day.

614
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 4: That's exactly right what happens in these trials. Having tried

615
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 4: hundreds myself, you often misread drawers. We thought that the

616
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 4: older lady and a younger lady, the one you're talking of,

617
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 4: probably in her forties, we thought that they hated us,

618
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 4: But it was the opposite. The initial vote was eight

619
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 4: to four for guilty, we later learned. And when we

620
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,959
Speaker 4: walked out of the courtroom towards our car, the one

621
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 4: you allude to, the female, the forty year old forty

622
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 4: something you old, walked up to me and said, mister Jaffie,

623
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 4: can have a word with you? And I said, sure,

624
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 4: she said, and she just looked at me right in

625
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 4: the eye, was like a foot from her, and she said,

626
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 4: you know, only a woman would know you can't have

627
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 4: sex in that position. So I climbed on the table

628
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 4: and put my right leg up and my left leg down,

629
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 4: and I made it clear to the mostly male jury

630
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 4: that Randall Paget could not have had sex with Cas

631
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 4: in that position, and that flipped other jurors and ultimately

632
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 4: All twelve found Randall not guilty. The last thing she

633
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 4: said to me was you tell Randal Paga to stay

634
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 4: away from Judy Smith and go spend time with his kids.

635
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: And then we walked away.

636
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 4: And the truth is that Randall hadn't seen Judy since

637
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 4: the night at the police station when they arrived back

638
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 4: from Florida, and he of course hasn't since.

639
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: Do you know what became of Judy Smith after all

640
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: these years?

641
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, Richard.

642
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: Is it strange to you that they never prosecuted her?

643
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 4: It's not strange because the prosecution had already publicly made

644
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 4: it clear that they didn't think she was involved at

645
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 4: all and knew nothing. So the chances of them getting

646
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 4: a conviction while it existed weren't really high. And I

647
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 4: think the prosecution was just done with that case. They

648
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 4: had pretty much been embarrassed enough, I guess.

649
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: And Randall before I keep saying this, but one last

650
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: question before we get to the wrap up, how are

651
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 1: your kids doing? These poor children had to live through

652
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: a nightmare that is unimaginable, you know, losing their mom

653
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: and then almost losing their dad, losing their dad for

654
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 1: six years. How are they doing now?

655
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: Well, they're doing good, and I've got three granddaughters now

656
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: from them. My son has two little red headed girls.

657
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: He lives in Nashville and he's an architect. My daughter

658
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 2: lives in Alabama and one time was president of the

659
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:56,240
Speaker 2: company she worked for. She's since moved to a different

660
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 2: place of than go woman, and she has one little girl.

661
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of them and love them.

662
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: The basis, well, that's great, and I wish them all

663
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: the blessings in the world because they deserve. As to you,

664
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: everything good. So now we come to the wrap up

665
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: of our show, which is a segment that is my

666
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: favorite part call closing Arguments, where I first of all,

667
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: thank both of you, Richard Jaffe, criminal defense lawyer, author

668
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: and amazing advocate, Thank you for being here, and of

669
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: course Randall, thank you Randall Paget for sharing your story

670
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: so eloquently and beautifully. And this part of the show

671
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: is where I get to kick back in my chair,

672
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: switch off my microphone, and let you just share any

673
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: other thoughts that you may want to share with our audience. Randall,

674
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: we're going to save you for last. If that's okay, Richard,

675
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: You're first.

676
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 4: It has been a true privilege, honor, and joy to

677
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 4: get to know and represent Randall Paget and become close

678
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 4: with he and his now wife, Brenda Massenguel of fifteen years.

679
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 4: This is the kind of case where reality really trump's fiction,

680
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 4: because had it not been for the failure to disclose

681
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 4: the exculpatory conflicting information of blood typing, Randall would never

682
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 4: have got a chance for a new trial. And it

683
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 4: amazes me that the prosecution hid that until it was

684
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 4: too late. The only other thing I would say would

685
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 4: be that law enforcement often excludes a wider investigation once

686
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 4: they focus on one suspect, and when that happens, the

687
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 4: wrong person can easily be convicted. And a really thorough

688
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 4: investigation would have revealed the truth that Randall was innocent.

689
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 4: And I thank God that Randall is here with us

690
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 4: to share his story. He is a true salt of

691
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 4: the earth human being.

692
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: Randall. I would just like to say, I think mister

693
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: Richard Jeffy is the greatest attorney in the world. He

694
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: believed in me, He believed the truth. I want to

695
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 2: thank Richard. I will love you Richard very much. One

696
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: thing about me, I guess I was naive about the

697
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 2: justice system in America. I had heard of people getting

698
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted. I didn't pay much attention to it, but

699
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: but I thought, you know, when you go to trial

700
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: in the United States, the foremost thing in the court's

701
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 2: mind is supposed to be the truth. But I don't

702
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: think it works that way. I think if a piece

703
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 2: of truth comes up, that's bad for whichever side. I

704
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 2: think it gets twisted around or or try to cover

705
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 2: it up or something. And I guess for people listening

706
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 2: to this, if you're ever sitting on a jury, I

707
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: would ask that you don't just believe because a defendant

708
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: has been accused of something that he probably did something

709
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: or he wouldn't be there. And I would ask that

710
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 2: you would make the prosecution show you some concrete proof

711
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 2: to back up what they're saying. If I got just

712
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: one other minute, I'd like to talk about my friend

713
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: and now wife, Brenda. When I was in prison, she

714
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 2: was so nice to me. She was trying to raise

715
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 2: money for me and writing legal aid places. I think

716
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 2: she wrote the governor and I don't know who all.

717
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: I thought, well, why is this woman being so nice

718
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 2: to me? I thought she's a spy for the prosecution,

719
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: because I was pretty sure I was going to get

720
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 2: a retrial because prosecution had withheld that exculpatory evidence. And

721
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, they know it's going to be a retrial.

722
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: And she's a spy, and she kept wanting to come

723
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 2: and visit me, and I wouldn't let her. I thought,

724
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 2: if I don't let her come down here, she can't

725
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 2: say I said something. But if I do let her come,

726
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 2: she can go back and say Randal said this. Randal

727
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 2: said that I wouldn't let her come. And a couple

728
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: of years, all my letters dwindled away except hers, and

729
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 2: so finally, through her letters, got to trust and she

730
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 2: did not be a spy but a great hey yep,

731
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 2: And after I got out, we've married about five years later.

732
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 2: But he's the most wonderful person.

733
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

734
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

735
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll

736
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

737
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

738
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

739
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

740
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

741
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

742
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at.

743
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction podcast.

744
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

745
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one.

746
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: I hope you may the land of your