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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast for another casual Friday chat. I'm Holly

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Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. So our first episode

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Speaker 1: this week was about uh, the much adored by me

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Speaker 1: George Psalm I had song also just so fabulous, I

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Speaker 1: just as I just love the whole idea of her. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting she's one of those ones where um, because

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Speaker 1: she was so connected to so many other really important

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Speaker 1: people in in history, Like she's one of those nexus

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Speaker 1: point people. UM. And I even mentioned in the episode that,

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Speaker 1: you know, my time travel dream would be to go

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Speaker 1: back to her house at Noan when Delacroix was there

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Speaker 1: and hang out. Um. But it is we we talked

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Speaker 1: about it on the show several times that her life

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Speaker 1: was very all and rich one. She did not shy

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Speaker 1: away from adventure. She was very um, very much a

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Speaker 1: social butterfly. So like it was shockingly difficult to kind

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Speaker 1: of pick through and be like, Okay, these are the

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Speaker 1: key things we have to discuss and then figure out,

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Speaker 1: like what other things you can include that flesh that

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Speaker 1: out without it getting overly complicated. It's tricky, Yeah, it's tricky.

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Speaker 1: I always worried, particularly about the her falling out with

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Speaker 1: Chopin and like how that played out with her daughter's Solange.

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Speaker 1: And we didn't get into it much in in the episode,

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Speaker 1: but we mentioned that Chopin had come to think of

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Speaker 1: her children as his own in many ways. And I

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Speaker 1: mean when you consider they were together nine years and

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Speaker 1: lived as a family, and like during that time, Solange

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Speaker 1: in particular was a little kid, not a little little kid,

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Speaker 1: but you know, a young girl when he met her

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Speaker 1: and then she had He was really there for her

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Speaker 1: very formative years and her becoming a young and and

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Speaker 1: eventually getting married, And so I can understand why he

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Speaker 1: would have felt the closeness with her and the desire

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Speaker 1: to not just cut her out of out of his

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Speaker 1: life because of this financial argument that was going on.

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Speaker 1: And then I think about how's your song felt so

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Speaker 1: completely betrayed by all of that, which is fascinating. Well,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like that's um a scenario that that

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Speaker 1: has been played out throughout history, including today. Like I

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Speaker 1: for sure no people who like maybe they had been

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Speaker 1: divorced but had a child and UH had a relationship

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Speaker 1: with someone else afterward that became like a parent for

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Speaker 1: their child. And then when that relationship ended, like what

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Speaker 1: that meant for their relationships with each other and their

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Speaker 1: family unit that had existed. Like, yeah, it's a complicated thing, right.

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Speaker 1: The mix, the blending and separation of families creates some

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Speaker 1: very very specifically odd tensions that are are different because

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Speaker 1: everybody involved has loved one another at some point, presumably

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Speaker 1: if they have reached a point of argument where they

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Speaker 1: feel that they don't want to be around that person anymore.

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Speaker 1: There is so much depth of hurt feeling that like,

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Speaker 1: I think it's impossible to untangle any logic out of it,

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Speaker 1: Like you can't figure it out. So I I think

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Speaker 1: probably there is a tendency on some people's part to

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Speaker 1: sort of vilify your somb in all of that and

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Speaker 1: be like, what a terrible mother. But clearly she and

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Speaker 1: her daughter had a very volatile relationship anyway, Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: they butted heads now and again, and she probably felt

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Speaker 1: very hurt by the whole thing. And it's worth remembering

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Speaker 1: that her son in law did pull a gun on her,

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Speaker 1: Like they're they're there are factors in there, Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: The other thing that I we talked about a good

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Speaker 1: bit in the episode, but I just feel bears repeating

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Speaker 1: is the role of my and so in George Son's life,

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Speaker 1: he kind of gets eclipsed by Chopin because he was

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Speaker 1: not famous, But she couldn't have done all that she

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Speaker 1: did in her later years without him. There's just no

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Speaker 1: way she could have accomplished as much writing and and

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Speaker 1: managed her life as well as she did without this

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Speaker 1: person who kind of just silently took care of her

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Speaker 1: and and did everything she needed so that she could

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Speaker 1: just pursue her artistic endeavors. Yeah. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that's interesting to me about that is that a lot

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Speaker 1: of in a lot of cases when there is a

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Speaker 1: male author or musician or artist or whatever who has

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Speaker 1: a wife or a girlfriend or some other woman who

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Speaker 1: is making it possible for him to do that work. Um,

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Speaker 1: a lot of times that just sort of passes without comment.

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Speaker 1: But like not so much the case was George Son

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Speaker 1: because the gender was different. Yeah, And it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things I think it's easy for people will to

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Speaker 1: forget that, uh, in a relationship like that where one

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Speaker 1: person is is pursuing creative endeavors, or or just you know,

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Speaker 1: leads a very demanding life and the other person is

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, running house and home like that is

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Speaker 1: serious labor to manage all of the day to day

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Speaker 1: affairs of a person who is like that. Uh So

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Speaker 1: I hate that it goes unsung for anybody. Yeah. It

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Speaker 1: is also unique and like you said, in the cases

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Speaker 1: are song because probably at her in the eight hundreds

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Speaker 1: there were not a lot of cases like that where

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Speaker 1: not as many now where the man would be like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I will, I will just take care of you and

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Speaker 1: be your be your I don't know that he could

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Speaker 1: be categorized as her muse, but uh, you know, be

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Speaker 1: the be your support system. I got you. Yeah. You

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Speaker 1: you hear a lot more about, um like prolific women writers.

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Speaker 1: You hear a lot more about ones who were single

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Speaker 1: for most of their lives. Um Like, that's that's been

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Speaker 1: a common theme in previous episodes. You don't hear as

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Speaker 1: many historical stories about supportive male partners who made their work. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that made their work possible. Yeah, I mean it's very

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Speaker 1: telling that when her son was like he's got to leave,

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Speaker 1: She's like, all right, going with him. Um. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: to me that that was the choice they went with

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Speaker 1: rather than like digging in and fighting over no al.

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Speaker 1: I was just like, all, write that one both leaves Yeah, yesh,

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Speaker 1: who doesn't want to wear frock coats? So I just

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Speaker 1: don't even know. Yeah, it's um. There was a meme

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Speaker 1: floating around I think Twitter at some point recently that

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Speaker 1: was like, what is your very specific fiction trope? And

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Speaker 1: mine was like woman writer who lives in defiance of

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Speaker 1: the norms expected because of her gender, which has just

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Speaker 1: been like I've researched several episodes for the show that

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Speaker 1: have been along that theme, but this one was yours. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and because she did live so large, she's just a

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Speaker 1: fascinating creature. Yeah. I suspect she would be great fun

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Speaker 1: to hang out with. And I just man, I have

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Speaker 1: to admire her hustle, like the fact that she would

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Speaker 1: be entertaining people, finish a party at like three or

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Speaker 1: four in the morning and be like, well, I gotta

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Speaker 1: go write my twenty pages for the day. What. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can't. As someone who has done National Novel Writing Month,

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Speaker 1: I think five times. The idea of man maintaining like

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Speaker 1: that level of productivity just forever decades yeah, yeah, not

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Speaker 1: even reality. I get exhausted writing an episode of this

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Speaker 1: show every week. I can't imagine doing twenty pages a

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Speaker 1: day every day. And as a consequence, she in some

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Speaker 1: ways felt like while other people lauded her as being

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Speaker 1: a genius, I mean, Balzac talked about like she is

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Speaker 1: the best writer living in anybody that doesn't recognize that

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Speaker 1: as an idiot um, but she kind of just thought, like,

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Speaker 1: I'm just grinding, man, I'm not even She didn't think

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Speaker 1: she was making ours. She just thought she was making

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Speaker 1: commercially accessible content for people because she had to keep

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Speaker 1: supporting all of the people in her life that that

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Speaker 1: she was paying for their support, and so she didn't

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Speaker 1: She wasn't precious about her writing at all. It seems

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Speaker 1: she was just churning it out. So she didn't think

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Speaker 1: of herself in that that way of like I'm a

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Speaker 1: I'm a genius, I'm making this amas like I'm just

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Speaker 1: making stuff that I gotta sell, I gotta make money.

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Speaker 1: She was all hustle. So our other episode this week

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Speaker 1: a bit of a gearshift, a total gear shift from that,

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Speaker 1: because it was a six impossible episodes. Folks who really

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Speaker 1: have been listening to the show for a long time

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Speaker 1: and love those. UM had remarked that it had been

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Speaker 1: a while since we had done a six Impossible episodes,

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Speaker 1: but our Lives show in Gettysburg last summer was like

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Speaker 1: six impossible episodes in disguise. It was a researched and

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Speaker 1: written in the same way as six impossible episodes are.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't call it that because I didn't think

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Speaker 1: people walking down the street in Gettysburg who saw it

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Speaker 1: on the like the poster, would know what I understand.

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Speaker 1: So I just didn't call it that. UM. The way

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Speaker 1: this one came about two things happened. One is because

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Speaker 1: I cannot add I had thought that this year was

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Speaker 1: the fiftieth anniversary of the Greensboro Lunch Counter sit ins

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Speaker 1: it's the sixty But I had flagged that as an episode,

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Speaker 1: like with it in my calendar and big capital letters,

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Speaker 1: like by February, do this thing. And then I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's actually the sixties. That's still fine, that it's but

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Speaker 1: like I had had that written like penciled in for

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Speaker 1: months and months UM. And we were in UM Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. Last year UM for a show at the

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Speaker 1: National Gallery of Art, and whenever I'm in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: If I have time, I try to get to a museum. UM,

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Speaker 1: usually one of the Smithsonian museums, because that's usually convenience

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Speaker 1: where we are, but it depends. UM. This time, UM,

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Speaker 1: I went to the Museum of the American Indian and

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I saw was a brief

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Speaker 1: thing about the fishings, and when I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: we should totally do an episode about that. And when

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Speaker 1: I got back to my desk UM, as I was

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Speaker 1: doing my preliminary search on things, I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this will be enough for a

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Speaker 1: whole episode. And my was like, oh, what if it

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Speaker 1: were a companion piece to the Greensboro lunch Counter thing, um,

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Speaker 1: And so we could have the Greensboro lunch Counter other

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Speaker 1: sit in movement episode and then this six Impossible episodes.

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Speaker 1: I very easily found the other five things to go

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Speaker 1: in the six Impossible episodes, and then when I got

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Speaker 1: into more thorough research about it, I was like, okay, a,

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Speaker 1: this fishing movement could have been a whole episode by

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Speaker 1: itself easily, but at that point I was too far

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Speaker 1: into it to be able to walk it back, especially

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Speaker 1: the legal angles of all of it, Like there were

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Speaker 1: so many court cases and so much going on in

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Speaker 1: terms of legal arguments of taking things to court, Like

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Speaker 1: that could have been UM an episode on his own,

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, we've got it somewhat covered

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Speaker 1: in the Six Impossible Episodes. Now, that particular segment of

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Speaker 1: that episode was delightful to me only in that um

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Speaker 1: the subject matter is difficult because it really always sucks

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Speaker 1: to talk about and that examine the ways that indigenous

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Speaker 1: peoples have been just treated so poorly. But because it

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Speaker 1: happened in the Pacific Northwest where I lived as a kid,

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Speaker 1: I did not struggle with all of the native names

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Speaker 1: like I would normally, right, Like I could say pe

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Speaker 1: all up because I lived there, and Snohomish very very

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Speaker 1: natural to me. Uh, that was that part of it

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Speaker 1: was nice? Yeah, yeah, I Um, I said this in

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Speaker 1: the episode, but like I really did, just I got

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Speaker 1: so angry, and I know there are still people living

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Speaker 1: in the area who feel like there is an unearned

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Speaker 1: level of privilege going on rather than it being these

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Speaker 1: are literally fishing rights that were guaranteed by treaty all

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Speaker 1: the way back in the nineteenth century. Like I know

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Speaker 1: there are still people who are who are angry about it,

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Speaker 1: and they may write to us. I don't have a lot.

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Speaker 1: I was so frustrated by so many of the arguments

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Speaker 1: that were made by the sport fishing community during all

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Speaker 1: of that. It made me really, really angry. I don't think.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I have anything else to add

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Speaker 1: about this particular six impossible episodes. I mean, I will

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Speaker 1: say we UM, we have had many many requests over

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Speaker 1: the years for us to talk about various things UM

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Speaker 1: related to AIDS epidemic, and we have both been a little,

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Speaker 1: a little trepidacious about it because we have both lost people. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I remember you had talked about how upsetting this was,

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Speaker 1: and I remember reading through it and I was like,

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Speaker 1: but I can handle it. I could not handle it. No,

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Speaker 1: we we had. We had a lot of stops. I

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Speaker 1: had an acquaintance and this has been recently like I

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Speaker 1: had an acquaintance who had survived the height of the

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Speaker 1: eighties UM. And then in much more recent years, UM

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Speaker 1: lost his job, lost his insurance, lost access to his

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Speaker 1: HIV medication, and was so ashamed about being HIV positive

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Speaker 1: that he didn't tell anyone, and nobody knew that anything

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Speaker 1: was the matter until he was in the hospital with

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Speaker 1: opportunistic infections. And I'm still so angry that he died

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Speaker 1: that anytime I try to talk about it, it's like

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Speaker 1: just viscerally infuriates me, which makes it really difficult to

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Speaker 1: record even like a one sixth of an episode on

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Speaker 1: the subject. Yeah, I mean, um, I lost a very

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Speaker 1: beloved dance teacher. Uh, several friends when I was in college,

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Speaker 1: you know, having been on the theater and art scene

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Speaker 1: a lot. They were definitely coming up in the late eighties,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I would get in my car and

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Speaker 1: drive to grown up places and make grown up friends.

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Speaker 1: So I kind of had a lot of friends that

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Speaker 1: were just older enough than me that I saw probably

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Speaker 1: more than the average teenager in the late eighties um

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Speaker 1: of people who were struggling and dying as a consequence

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Speaker 1: of some of these these slowdowns that were being protested

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Speaker 1: in in the Act Up movement and continue to be.

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Speaker 1: And it's one of those things too that like, I

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that you specifically called out that this is

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Speaker 1: something that is ongoing and that Act Up is doing

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Speaker 1: these these protests even today, to be like this is

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Speaker 1: not history. There are still people living with AIDS today

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Speaker 1: that need supportive assistance, that need additional education. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've done so much in the medical community in some ways,

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Speaker 1: but in other ways there is still this Now there's

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Speaker 1: almost like a weird second wave of stigma of like

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Speaker 1: I thought, I thought we fixed that, like among people

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Speaker 1: particularly that did not grow up in in the eighties. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean I do AIDS walk every single year and

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Speaker 1: have for I don't even know how many years, and

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Speaker 1: it's like there are still people telling their stories about

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Speaker 1: how they you know, uh, contracted HIV through a variety

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Speaker 1: of ways that they weren't even aware of. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're possible at the time because there is a gap

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Speaker 1: in education in some ways because people think it's a

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Speaker 1: historical event and not an ongoing thing. But also there

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Speaker 1: are still people that are are thriving and living with

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Speaker 1: HIV and but they still need support in some ways.

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Speaker 1: So I it is a cause very near and dear

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Speaker 1: to my heart. Consequently, very hard to talk about this ugly,

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Speaker 1: ugly part of our history. Yeah. We Um, we stopped

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Speaker 1: more times in that one sixth of this episode then

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Speaker 1: I think we've had to stop for anything else in

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Speaker 1: recent memory. Yeah. Uh, so anyway, that's also why when

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Speaker 1: I I didn't do the episode in strictly chronological order, um,

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Speaker 1: because I didn't want that to be the note that

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Speaker 1: we ended on, even though it was really a really

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Speaker 1: important note. I didn't want it to be too early

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Speaker 1: in the episode because I didn't want it to be overshadowed.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't want it to be the last thing

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Speaker 1: that we talked about, because I wanted to end on

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Speaker 1: a note that did not feel quite as devastating as

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Speaker 1: that one. Anyway, Uh, I think that's that's what we

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Speaker 1: had to talk about today. So if you'd like to

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Speaker 1: write to us about this or any other podcast or

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Speaker 1: a history podcast that I heart radio dot com, if

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Speaker 1: you have sent us something to the other old email

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Speaker 1: address recently, we probably got that too. We just aren't

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Speaker 1: able to reply to everyone, um frequently, So that's our

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Speaker 1: email address. We're also all over social media at miss

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Speaker 1: in History, which is our Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and Instagram,

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Speaker 1: and you can subscribe to our show on Apple, podcast,

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Speaker 1: I heart radio app anywhere else to get podcasts. Stuff

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Speaker 1: you Missed in History Class is a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.