1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Oh Man, Matt, Noel, Uh, this is one of my 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: favorite interviews we've ever done. It's not even really an interview. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: I would argue, this is where we talked to a 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: techno occultist. Yeah, and you know what, correct me if 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: I'm wrong here. I don't think I was in these discussions. 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: I I don't think I was able to make it 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: for these and it makes you really sad after I 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: listened to them. I just wanted to be deep in 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: the mix with y'all. I was talking to Damien earlier 10 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: today before he went into records. He's doing quite well. Uh, 11 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: he's on the way to successfully complete his dissertation. Would 12 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: love to have him back, Matt, you would love to 13 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: talk with this guy if you didn't get a chance 14 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,919 Speaker 1: to before. Uh. It's it's just eye opening explorations of 15 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: what Arthur C. Clark talked about pretty often, the line 16 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: between magic and technology, from UFOs to psychic powers and 17 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want 19 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: you to know. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the show. 20 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: My name is Noel, and you are you Hopefully listeners. 21 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: My name is been, our colleague and confidante, h our, 22 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: our close associate, our what some might call ride or die. 23 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: Be at that shore. Matt Frederick is on on a 24 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: mission that he mentioned earlier, not so much a secret mission, 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: but a mission nonetheless, and he will be returning very soon. 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: You may be able to catch him on a live 27 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: show here and there, but you didn't hear it from us. However, 28 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: this does not mean that it's just Noel and I 29 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: in the studio today, No, we are. We are thrilled 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: to have a special guest with us. Is a friend 31 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: of the show and a friend of mine. Um, we've 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: known each other for a while. Uh. This is an 33 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: instructor at Kenna saw State University, also pretty well known 34 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: writer on religious studies, on the intersection of technology and 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: the occult, which we'll get to spoiler alert, uh, as 36 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: well as philosophy. And as a matter of fact, when 37 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: we were talking about this off the air, we were like, 38 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: how do I how do we encapsulate the stuff we're 39 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: gonna talk to today? A lot a lot of man 40 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: wears a lot of hats, A lot of hats, ladies 41 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: and gentlemen. Damian Patrick Williams gonna be with you guys today. 42 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Hey, yeah, thank you so much 43 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: for agreeing to go down a couple of crazy rabbit 44 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: holes with us. The rabbit holes are the best kind 45 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: of rabbit holes. Yes, as far as we're considered on 46 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: this show, they are the only kind of rabbit holes. 47 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: Before we get to today's episode, Damien, Um, there's a 48 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: thing that Nolan, Matt and I do where we introduce 49 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: listeners to each other. It's something we like to call 50 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: shout at corners. That's right, ladies and gentlemen, it is 51 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: the return of the shout out Corner and we have 52 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: a few people who have requested a shout out. Mr Brown, 53 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: do you want to do the honors? Oh? Why not? Uh, 54 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 1: here's one for Tony Hernandez. Shout out to Tony because 55 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: he was listening to the Superbugs episode while fighting an 56 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: ongoing infection. Hopefully it wasn't a super infection. Best of 57 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: luck to you, sir. And shout out to Gwendolen, who 58 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: said it was a life goal of hers to receive 59 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: a shout out on the show. Check that off the 60 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: bucket list, Gwendolin, no doubt, doubt we've got We've got 61 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: one more here for today, and that would be Staff 62 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: Sergeant Adam Denshar, who wanted to know our thoughts on 63 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: simulated reality, which is something that Damien, you and I 64 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: and Nolan going to get into in a future episode. Right, Yes, 65 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: very much, and that's our shout out corner for today. 66 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: So I am so excited that we're we're going to 67 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: take a look at today's topic because it's something that 68 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: we have talked about at times in our video series. 69 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: We've touched on it a little bit. UM alchemy, alchemy? 70 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: So what what? What? What is alchemy? Um? I think 71 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: the best way to think about alchemy is to think 72 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: about the historical position it tends to occupy. UM. You 73 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: look back at like the Dark and Middle Ages in 74 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: both Europe and in a corresponding time frame, but even 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: earlier than that, back in China, and you can see 76 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: this drive to try to change one thing into another, 77 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: and the European alchemical set. You've got this thing where 78 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: everybody was trying to find a way to turn lead 79 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: into gold, which is like the the the tip top 80 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: thing that pretty much everybody knows about alchemy, right right, Chrystopia, 81 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: I think yes, And so this idea of being able 82 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: to transmute, and that's the big word an alchemical processes, transmutation, 83 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: being able to transmute one thing to another thing, taking 84 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: various minerals, various metals, various substances and solutions, and turning 85 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: things into other things. I guess when I think about 86 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: alchemy as it's portrayed, you know, in popular culture and such, 87 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: there always seems to be a mystical element to it. 88 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: But then a lot of times when I hear it 89 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: describes as the way you've done, it sounds much more 90 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: like a precise science. But in reality, isn't it kind 91 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: of somewhere in between exactly what I was about to say. 92 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: It's like you can't separate the one from the other. 93 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: If you look at the the hermetic well hermetic philosophers, 94 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: practitioners of what were known as the her medic cards. 95 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: These people were they were very very precise about what 96 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: it was that they thought they were doing. There were 97 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: specifical formulations, specific formulations, um specific uh combinations and operations 98 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: that needed to be undergone, processes that needed to be 99 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: very very carefully maintained. For instance, in some of the 100 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: some of the things that would now in the modern 101 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: age perhaps seem like spells or rituals were considered something 102 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: like a scientific and experiments that must be reproducible exactly. 103 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: And if it's not reproducible, then it it fails. It's 104 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: not it's not alchemy. It's like if it's not reproducible, 105 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: if you can't put this down in a text for 106 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: a further alchemical student, a further alchemists beyond yourself to 107 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: engage in, then then it's a failure. It needs further study. 108 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: You you've obviously missed something if it can't be reproduced, right, 109 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: and we it's spoken about this before off air. I 110 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: believe it was John D who had some that we 111 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: have been discussing, who had some incredibly specific rules in 112 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: terms of both process and materials for his alchemical rituals. Yes, 113 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: and D was at a time he was perhaps the 114 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: best known alchemist. And you know the popular imagination um 115 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: John D was the spy master for Queen Elizabeth the First. 116 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: He was her secret agent, he was her advisor, he 117 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: was her her chief scientists, she was he was master 118 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: magician to the Queen. Um. There was a rumor that 119 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: went around that for a while there that he used 120 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: to sign his letters double O seven um. That has 121 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: been in no way, shape or form ever fully substantiated. 122 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: But it's a cool rumor. It's a really cool rumor. 123 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: Like that's where Ian f mean got it. So overall, 124 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: I mean like a skill set that definitely lends itself 125 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: to subterfuge, you know, pulling the wool over people's eyes exactly, 126 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: being able to, if at all possible, misdirect, being able 127 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: to alter the perceptions of the people that you have 128 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: directly in front of you, or perhaps not directly in 129 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: front of you, but to build up an aura, to 130 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: build up a sense of mystery, a sense of power 131 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: that others might not be able to adequately match. So 132 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: how does that tie into the results that we're talking about, 133 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: Because I think he had some pretty extensive journals that 134 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: one might consider to be scientific notes of sorts when 135 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: it comes to this alchemy that he did absolutely so 136 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: d in his processes as he was doing the work. 137 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: John d is famous amongst the cult circles anyway, famous 138 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: for his work on the Enochian texts. Um. He does 139 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: this work wherein he communes with angels. There's no really 140 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: there's no other way that he that you can put 141 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: what he describes here. He performs rituals, performs uh magical 142 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: and alchemical operations to put himself in a state of 143 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: mind and a state of physical and metaphysical being where 144 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: he can talk to angels and receive transmissions of their language, 145 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: and then he transcribes it down the languages Chian text exactly. 146 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: And so the like the the Enoch or the Enochian 147 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: is it takes its name from the biblical character of Enoch. 148 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: The Book of Enoch is an apocryphal text in Um Christianity. 149 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: It's it's providence is dubious, but it tells the story 150 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: of a man Uh named Enoch, who, at the time 151 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: of his death Um does not die and does not 152 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: then you know, spiritually transform into then a spiritual being 153 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: that goes to heaven to live with God. Instead, Enoch 154 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: is raised up, he is turned into Uh, an angel 155 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: at the time of his death, and so he becomes 156 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: the voice of God. He becomes the bridge for humanity 157 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: and divinity. And so the Enochian language, as D describes it, 158 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: is that bridge language. It is that that moment, that 159 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: way of communicating between humans and the divine And this 160 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: is a fascinating concept, and it's one that we see 161 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: bandied about to some degree or another in a lot 162 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: of popular fiction, almost in a in like a referential way. 163 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: This transformative work. Um, you know, there's it's like the 164 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: whole Joseph Campbell of Frasier's work, you know, with the 165 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: dying and reborn God. Um. And it's as we see 166 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: so many of the same stories echoing through the halls 167 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: of time. But there's one question that I have to ask, 168 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: did anyone successfully reproduce these work that we know of? 169 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: Not in the kind of publicly claimed reproductions of you know, 170 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: here some huge, big results that d claim to have gotten, 171 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: like because of these work. You've got an entire tradition 172 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: of Western magicians and alchemists that come along, Hermetic philosophers, 173 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: as many of them styled themselves, that came along afterwards. 174 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: And what they did was, you know, they said they've 175 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: managed to reproduce the results. They also said that if 176 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: you didn't yourself see the results, it was because you 177 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: had not undergone the processes to be able to see 178 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: the results. That in order to directly experience this you 179 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: have to go through the transformative process. You have to 180 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: perform the process yourself in order to actually be able 181 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: to recognize what's happening, in order to be able to 182 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: hear it, see it, feel it yourself. Now, that's that's 183 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: the fascinating point. I want to I want to go 184 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: back just for um, just for uh, some background painting 185 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: here for the audience. Uh, ladies and gentlemen. When we're 186 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: talking about the origin stuff. Here, Noel and Damian pointing 187 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: out the we're pointing out that alchemy, as this ancient 188 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: art involving into a science, took place in more than 189 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: just Western Europe. Most Western alchemy I traces back I 190 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: believed to Hellenistic Egypt, and the the completely separate branch, 191 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: one could argue, would be more Eastern. But in both cases, 192 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: what we're seeing is the the origin of attempting to 193 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: logically categorize, quantify somehow and explore the universe in a 194 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: in a rational way other than just saying, oh crap, 195 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: the sun's here again. I hope it's not angry with 196 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: me today. You know. Chinese alchemy, for instance, is deeply 197 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: tied to daois um um and the Taoist what's oftentimes 198 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: considered dallast magical practice. Um, but what that looks like 199 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: today when we look at what they were doing in 200 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: the operations that they were undergoing in that process, we 201 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: would call that, in a very real sense medicine. Yeah, 202 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: we would call that if we wanted to make a 203 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: kind of linear progression story out of it. And the 204 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: story that you know, because it's a narrative, is about 205 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: making choices and might or might not have merit to 206 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: somebody else who hears it. But if we wanted to 207 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: tell a story about it, we could tell a story 208 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: about Chinese alchemy becoming modern day pharmacology. It's about balancing 209 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: various energies within yourself. It's about using potions to extend life. 210 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:01,359 Speaker 1: It's about engaging in the balancing of various elements and energies. 211 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: And one of the terms that got used in the 212 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: old days was humorous. That's really interesting because I mean 213 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: a lot of that is still very much alive today. 214 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: And you know, massage therapy and reflexology and you know, 215 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: essential oils and all that kind of stuff. And I mean, 216 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, certainly there are those that would you know, 217 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: poo poo it, but I mean the people practice it, 218 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: and people swear on it about I would argue perhaps 219 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: that that is more alive today than maybe some of 220 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: the more transmutational forms of alchemy. Well, this is getting 221 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: ahead of ourselves a little bit perhaps, But like a 222 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: lot of the people that I talked to and when 223 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: we talk about, you know, the history of alchemy, and 224 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: we talked about, you know, alchemy finds its footing in 225 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: the modern era in twenty one century as a material science. 226 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: So you've got let's let's put a pin in that. 227 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: This is this is this is a good this is 228 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: a great point. I want to draw a parallel here 229 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: as well. So if we are, if we are telling 230 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: this story right, if what we would consider alchemy in 231 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: China ultimately becomes pharmacology, we have seen that there is 232 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: substance to the use of herbal medicine in in this 233 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: in this sphere, right, this is not a placebo effect 234 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: in all cases. But I also I wonder if the 235 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: Western branch of alchemy leads to well, as you as 236 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: you said, uh, meta materials, which we'll get to, but 237 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: also some of the origins of chemistry are found in alchemy. 238 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: Is that correct? That is absolutely correct, because we're talking 239 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: as we previously noted about you know, people who are 240 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: trying to reproduce results. They're talking about building and working 241 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: with elements that they are beginning in this way to 242 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: understand and what we consider a more fundamental way. The 243 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: way that we look at elements and chemistry now, the 244 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: way that we think about the atomic structure of things 245 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: was known at that point in time. There was vague 246 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: hints if we look back at like Democratus and Epicurus 247 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: back in the Greeks of you know, quote unquote atomic theory, 248 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: but that was not the kind of robust, you know, 249 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: electron shells and protons and neutrons kind of chemical theory 250 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: that we have today. Um. It was instead at that 251 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: point in time about well, there are base elements, there 252 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: are elements of the earth. There are elements that are 253 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: more solid, and then there are more rarefied elements. There 254 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: are more refined elements, elements like gold, like silver, like platinum, 255 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: and those elements. If you leave elements of the earth 256 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: alone for long enough, they'll become there's kind of more 257 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: rarefied element. They will evolve into it on their own. 258 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: So our job as alchemists is to figure out the 259 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: process by which those base elements turn into the more 260 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: rarefied elements, and to then replicate that process, to control 261 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: that process, to manipulate that process for ourselves. Ah, and 262 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: this gets into gets into something fascinating. So there is 263 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: a bit of an occultation, a bit of a conspiratorial 264 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: aspect to alchemy. There is a bit of stuff they 265 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: don't want you to know, because all of these works 266 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: moving a base element to something more rarefied, more pure, 267 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: are a microcosmic example of something else, which is the big, 268 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: the big elephant in the room, the great work. Yes, 269 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: and we'll get to that after a word from our sponsor. 270 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: The morning after the party. I'm up. It's the second 271 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: time I've mopped since I moved in four months ago, 272 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: the first being yesterday morning before the party. I've reached 273 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: the point in my life where I know how comfortable 274 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: I am being a slub, but I really don't want 275 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: my friends to know. Mostly not mac Her music lays 276 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: down the rhythm for my swipes and slashes, as it 277 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: did for dishwashing before this and living room recombobulation before that. Yes, 278 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that it's my third time today 279 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: through the album she gave me but don't judge. It's 280 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: sad and brash and perfect, and every thrumb placed through 281 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: me like the reverberation of a laugh half an inch 282 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: above hot skin, like the stubs of her hair sopped 283 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: through my fingers. It's in the third chorus of my 284 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: favorite song, the ones she covered least showcase that something disjoints. 285 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: I've gotten the breath ahead of the lyrics, my mop 286 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: sweeping to the down beat instead of the back, and 287 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 1: that creek, not a cat on the floorboards. That both 288 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: are in their own sunbeams, slat on the couch. It 289 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: came from the album Mop, Back and Bucket. I moved 290 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: to my phone and skipped the song back to the beginning. 291 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: It's all normal, and the cats have adjusted their antennadish 292 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: ears in the way that means they're ignoring me on purpose. Now, 293 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: So I wring out the wet yarns again and I'm 294 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: daydreaming about backup vocals when there it is an extra word, 295 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: lilting through that third line and almost off key and 296 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: emphasized by its own tact on beat, and a moment later, 297 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 1: that noise nothing like the hardwoods. Now that I hear it, 298 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: it's a guttering grind, a warped door against warped frame, 299 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: muffled behind the rest of the track. Weird that I 300 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: didn't notice it before, but I figure it for low 301 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: fi charms. Some studio flots them, the mandolin player bringing 302 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: back another couple of beers before the next song, or whatever. 303 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: I should keep cleaning, Max said, should text me later, 304 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: maybe come back over. But something in my mind keeps 305 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: fluttering over that misstep, the mathematical probability of the pattern 306 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: mop in bucket. I pick up my phone and wind 307 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: the song back, finger dragging over a smooth screen, and 308 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: this time it's expected, and I sing along, punctuate the 309 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: beat with a slap on my thigh, and suddenly it's sensical, satisfying, 310 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: even like picking a scab or popping a z it. 311 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: Even the stuttering scrape that comes after is a strange comfort. 312 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: Then I register heat on my nape and turn, blinking 313 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: into brightness. The door that never was is open, and 314 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: the eyes beyond are burning, burning, burning, burning. Cleanse the 315 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: clutter of this old world, and open the door that 316 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: never was. With the hermes MOP find them wherever ancient 317 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: hidden doorways may lead us. Only is directed, and only 318 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: in conjunction with Hermes Approve the buckets and other Hermi's 319 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: Household products. Hemi Household pducts are not responsible for any 320 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: of the the following side of facts of necromantic capitler aspeciation, 321 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: canary wing, birdeye, left the court stone, poisoned wells, moveless transportation, transubstantiation, 322 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: unintended resurrection, gall dropsy, stroke, broken string, missing order, and 323 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: cosmic Hermi's Household is a subsidiary of Illumination Global Unlimited. 324 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. So, Damien, what is this 325 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: great work? Well, well, we're talking about the idea of 326 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: the great work. We're usually referencing a kind of formulation, 327 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: a kind of conceptualization about the magical process of refining oneself. 328 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: So rather than taking a metal like lead and creating 329 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: a metal like gold from it, we're taking a base 330 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: human right and based soul, the bay nature of ourselves. 331 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,719 Speaker 1: Base meaning animal like, base meaning you know, in the 332 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: sense of we have our drives that are for food 333 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: and for sex, and for comfort and for shelter. But 334 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: those drives are there, they're base, They're basic. They are 335 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: not refined drives. Those are not the drives that we 336 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: ought to be shooting for they are, if need be 337 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: yes present, but they're not which should drive our lives. 338 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: They're not what should make us who we are. Right, 339 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: So this base nature that we have needs to be 340 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: refined through the process of the Great Work into something pure, 341 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: and in many cases it's seen as something pure again, 342 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: that is back to what we used to be. So 343 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: there becomes this kind of um Abrahamic Judea Christian Islamic 344 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: kind of sense of the fall, the the imperfection of 345 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: humans as being the result of the work of humans 346 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: or the doings of humans. And so if we can 347 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 1: do what we can to recapture that kind of preden 348 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: i fall moment, If we can recapture that and turn 349 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: ourselves back into that through an integration with nature, through 350 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: understanding the processes of nature as nature works, through imbuing 351 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: ourselves with the same transmutational processes, the same willing control 352 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: that nature has, then we can turn ourselves again. We 353 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: can make ourselves again into that kind of perfect, rarefied 354 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: golden state. So the Great Work is ultimately a redemptive act. 355 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: Many see it that way In many ways, Yeah, many 356 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: see it that way. Um. Some see it as an 357 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: apotheosis some see the culmination of the Great Work as 358 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: not becoming again like we used to be, but to 359 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: read a level as with God, that is, to put ourselves. 360 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: We had to come down from this quote unquote pure state. 361 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 1: We had to fall, We had to be in this 362 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: kind of process of being in the mud and trying 363 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: to survive and scrounge and scrape, and then move through 364 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: that and become more than that, and then become more 365 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: than we even ever were before that, and to become 366 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: finally like God. And that's the process of the Great Work. 367 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: And that's the point of it. Many see, and some 368 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: see not just that, but that that's you for putting 369 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: God in this mix here, that that's what God wants 370 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: us to do. That's the purpose that we're supposed to do. 371 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: So would you say that being a successful alchemist is 372 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: sort of a physical personification of having successfully performed this 373 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: great work on yourself. Yes, Um, that was the idea 374 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: of being a ultimately a successful alchemist. And I should 375 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: take a step back and say that a lot of 376 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: what we know, a lot of what we think we 377 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: know about alchemy, and a lot of our perspective on 378 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: alchemy is reconstruction. Right, So we're looking backward at a 379 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: group of people who been, as you noted, we're very 380 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: secretive about this work. There they were in fact occulting 381 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: it in many ways UM off air. Previously we discussed 382 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: this idea of alchemical text being written in code. Yes, yes, okay, 383 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: this is this is a fantastic and bedeviling things. So listeners, 384 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of us have written back 385 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: and forth with each other via maybe Twitter, email or 386 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: Facebook about UM mysterious texts. We We've talked about both 387 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: legitimately undeciphered text like the Vantage manuscripts. We've talked about 388 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: UM things that were recreations of that that come from 389 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: completely mundane sources like the Kodek Seraphenius. However, UM this 390 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: this is a fascinating thing because there are both practical 391 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: and philosophical reasons for writing in code. One of the 392 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: big questions that I'd like to explore will be the 393 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: relationship of alchemists to the established churches of the time. 394 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: UH and did that play any role in this use 395 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: of code UM To an extent, some alchemists were in 396 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: fact working to hide their processes, UM and their actual 397 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: activities from the church at the time. Because this was 398 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: a point at which the understanding of magic for the 399 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: sake of the Church was beginning to be seen as 400 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: um kind of taboo. Uh, there was a point in 401 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: church history in which magic that gets done. There is 402 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: there's biblical magic, like there is a history of Jewish magic, 403 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,479 Speaker 1: of Christian jake, of Islamic magic. There are traditions of 404 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: magical processes being built out of certain understandings and certain 405 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: decipher ngs of the text. The entire history of jim 406 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: Atria and the Kabbalah is about deciphering coded messages from 407 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: out of the Torah, from by using numerical transformations on 408 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: words and texts to then find hidden messages in the text. 409 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: And the same was applied to the New Testament by 410 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: Gnostic thinkers, building these kinds of perspectives out of um 411 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: what is hidden? What is the hidden meaning within the text? 412 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the Gnostics came before the first really attested 413 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: cabalists obviously, But like Um in all of this that 414 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: keep thinking, wasn't Jesus kind of an alchemist? Actually, some 415 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: of the alchemists and magicians, the hermetic magicians working later 416 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: down the line, made that exact argument that what Jesus 417 00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: specifically was doing, was working to teach people how to 418 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: perfect and to refine themselves. And in the process, by 419 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: the way, here so you can change one thing into another, right, people, 420 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: that's five loaves of fish or five blows of bread 421 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: and some fish. Here you go, bamp done. I don't know, guys, 422 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,959 Speaker 1: but not in a mood for water today. I'm just 423 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: not feeling it. It's a nice sunny day out or 424 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: at a wedding. Shazam, here's the best wine you've ever tasted. Um. Yeah, 425 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: that's that's a really good point, I think. And it's 426 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: and I mean that's that is that is a line 427 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,479 Speaker 1: of thought that gets deployed, like I said, by various 428 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: or medicists that what we see in Jesus as that 429 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: kind of figure is the ideal of the alchemist. You know, 430 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: There's something in all of this that keeps kind of 431 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: bothering me is that the end product of a lot 432 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: of this alchemy is usually some incredibly sought after material. 433 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: So there's certain element of like titilation and like peeking 434 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: people's sort of baser instincts like greed or like you know, 435 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: wanting to be wealthy, and that's sort of It's almost like, um, 436 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: it would cause you to be more likely to believe 437 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: it if you think it could benefit you in some way. 438 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: Are you accusing alchemy of being a prosperity theology. I'm 439 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: not making this is what it's really good. Yeah, that's 440 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: really good point. Rather than prosperity theology, I might actually 441 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: suggest that you think of it in terms of like marketing. 442 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: You want to sell a line of thinking. You want 443 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: to sell people on this process that's going to ultimately 444 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: change and benefit them if they follow through with it. 445 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: But people don't like to hear that. People people, especially 446 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: if it's like a long, complex, involved process, nobody wants 447 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: to hear that. It's like telling people to work out. Yeah, 448 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: go eat, go eat like vegetables and stuff and like 449 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: exercise and like don't smoke and eat red meat. And 450 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: I'm like, can I just like sit on the couch 451 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: with like an absis er and have some gold? Yeah? 452 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: And then that's a good point. Yeah. So there's there's 453 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,479 Speaker 1: a there's another thing there that when when you were 454 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: saying that, Noel, it makes me. It makes me think 455 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: of these pursuits and I don't know how we got 456 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: this far into the podcast without talking about it. But 457 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: if you ladies and gentlemen think of alchemy, then you 458 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: probably think at least once of the philosopher's stone, right um, 459 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: which is sometimes a misunderstood thing. It's not necessarily this 460 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: one guy's magic rock, right right Um. The philosopher's stone 461 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: is variously described uh in many alchemical texts. It's sometimes 462 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: a stone like a literal gem. It's sometimes and a 463 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: lixer that one takes. Um. It's sometimes a uh particular 464 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: it's like a chalice in some it's like at one 465 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: point in one text um uh. Mercia Eliotti, the sociologist 466 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: of religion um looking and anthropologist of religion, looks at 467 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: like the overlap between the philosopher's stone and the Holy 468 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:12,959 Speaker 1: Grail as these transformative relics, these ideas of creation and refinement. Um. 469 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: But like all of these things are very very like. 470 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: They're these things that you can take and then you 471 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: can hold them, or you can have them, or you 472 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: can move them, and you can work them into yourself. 473 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: But the process is um. Most researchers into alchemy have 474 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: come to understand the process is about making yourself into 475 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: a philosopher's stone. Yes, about you becoming this thing that 476 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: can transform, because the the mythos of the Philosopher's Stone 477 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: is that you can with the Philosopher's Stone transmute anything 478 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: into anything else without any kind of process, without any 479 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: kind of like hard work, other than will, other than will, 480 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: you just will it to be. You want this, you 481 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: want transform, transform that gut into a raging six you know, 482 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: you know in the matrix and neo in the matrix. 483 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: You want to have, you know, the knowledge of everything 484 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: in the Library of Congress. You hold on the Philosopher's Stone, 485 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: you think about it real hard boom, there you go, 486 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: like you want a pile of gold where this table 487 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: used to be. Then there it is, and you can 488 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: make anything out of anything without having to do the 489 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: hard work. And it seems like a devil's bargain to 490 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: me though. But that's the thing, is that you get 491 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: this thing supposedly. But in the Philosopher's Stone, what you're 492 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: actually getting isn't this object, this item that allows you 493 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 1: to turn something into something else. It's this way of 494 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: existing that lets you recognized the interconnection between all things. 495 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: And even if that's all right, even if this word 496 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,239 Speaker 1: you exist, the one of the implicit arguments is that 497 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: by nature of the process of creating this sort of 498 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: thing or discovering this sort of thing, the person who 499 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: wills it becomes themselves so changed by that experience that 500 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: they're not the same person who would they would. It 501 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: is like a quest for like the Holy Grail or something. 502 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: It's not the object itself, it's the process of getting 503 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: to the object. And then once you're at the object, 504 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: you realize, well, I'm not gonna do what I initially 505 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,719 Speaker 1: thought I was gonna do with this thing was inside 506 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: you all the time at the time, Joe Bush stalks 507 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: with it. Sorry, I just anytime you can make a 508 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: reference to the last persade, I'm fine with it, which 509 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: is still Oh man, I was surprised. That holds up 510 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,719 Speaker 1: solid movie, It holds up, and then in some ways, 511 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: you know, uh, what's interesting there? And I love that 512 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: we're talking about this Holy Grail combination. Um oh, I'm 513 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: getting a sidetracked. That might be an episode for a 514 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: different day. How about the next thing that we often hear, 515 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: which is the cure all the panacea? Yes, yes, And 516 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: that actually comes back around to a lot of what 517 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: we hear in terms of Chinese alchemy. Um, we have 518 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: the goal of in Chinese alchemy, and your goal is 519 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: to balance, as I said, the energies inside of yourself, 520 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: to overcome poison, to be able to be healthier, to 521 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: live longer, and in some ultimate cases become immortal and 522 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: possibly learned how to like fly and stuff and not 523 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: not like a lich king, actually healthy, immortal forever can 524 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: still go out in the day like um. Like. There's 525 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: stories of the like the ancient you know, the ancient 526 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: master who has somehow mastered immortality, who has mastered and 527 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: balanced all of their energies and recognizes that all things 528 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: are an eternal dance of energies, and they exist within 529 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: that dance themselves, and so if they just exist within it, 530 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: they never have to die. But also in those we 531 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: see competing ideologies is one way to say it. Narratives 532 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: would be another. We see these competing ideas because some 533 00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: of the same mythical figures or legendary figures U who 534 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: are seen by alchemists as trafficking with other worldly powers 535 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: of the divine, are seeing those powers, while depicted as 536 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: angelic and alchemy are depicted as nefarious or infernal in 537 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: some other I mean I'll say it in a lot 538 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: of organized religions. Yes, it's very true. It's very true. 539 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean, so before we get back into the Panacey, 540 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: I let's track it back a second to talk about 541 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: John Deal a little bit more, a little bit about 542 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,959 Speaker 1: Enoch and the Anochian language in the Book of Enoch 543 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: and the Metatron. In the same apocryphal text of the 544 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: Book of Enoch, we're talking about a story in which 545 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: Enoch is given and has made privy to the fall 546 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: of the angels that fought on the side of Lucifer 547 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: in the battle against Heaven. He's made privy to what 548 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: happened to them, And what happened to them is that 549 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 1: they came down to Earth and they had, as they say, 550 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: congress and the knowledge of human women nephelum are born 551 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: out of this union of angelic and human. This kind 552 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: of unholy abomination is usually how it's categorized, is like 553 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: the the outcome of you know, angelic powers and human powers. Uh, 554 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: making the various feature figure with two backs. It's it's 555 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: a thing that comes about as a result of the 556 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: divine and the human meeting in a way that they're 557 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: not supposed to too. Great things that don't go great together. 558 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: But also in that before we get to the Nephelum 559 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 1: or actually while that's happening, because the angels in question 560 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 1: that fall, they're not just like, oh, we're gonna come down, 561 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: Oh hey, hot person, and like then that's over. It's 562 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 1: like there's they live with humans, they exchange with humans, 563 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: they form, they give knowledge and wisdom of things that 564 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: humans were never supposed to have. Um Azazel. Uh. For 565 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 1: anybody out there familiar with the uh the movie Fallen 566 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: with Denzel Washington, Uh, that character doesn't just come out 567 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: of nothing. The character of Asazel is actually first reference 568 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: in the Book of Enoch, and he is originally an 569 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: angel of death. His job is to you know, to 570 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: make death and two shepherd souls in death, oftentimes connected 571 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: with the figure of Samuel and which is the in 572 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: many categorizations the pre fall name of lucifer Um. But 573 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: Asazel becomes this minister of war to human beings. Asazel 574 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: teaches humans how to make war, how to make weapons, 575 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: how to make you know, metal weapons, and so we 576 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: see the story about the Bronze Age read cast as well, 577 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: and some angels fell down and talk to some humans 578 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: about some stuff. And now we knew how to make 579 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: swords out of metal, right right, Let's let's let's follow 580 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: this the curve of this rabbit hole just just a 581 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: little bit further down. This um a tangent. I have 582 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: a tangent for you guys, all right, So for our listeners, 583 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: you know, we have to be conscious this. This might 584 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: sound like what we're describing would be a bunch of imaginative, 585 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 1: somewhat deluded people who are spinning fanciful of engaging stories 586 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: about the world. But this is still there's still science 587 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: at work here, which is the strangest part. I read recently, 588 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: and I don't know if you guys heard about this 589 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 1: um that ancient Babylonian astronomers were tracking Jupiter with calculus, 590 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 1: with like actual and in fact calculus. Yeah, and there 591 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: several thousand years before we ever thought that that was invented, right, 592 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: And because of this, what's so strange is that in 593 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: what's so strange is that the reason they were tracking, 594 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: the reason that they had this um amazingly complex math, 595 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: which was well done, and it's you know, let's keep 596 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: in mind, this concerns a planet that no one in 597 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: our species, at least officially has been to yet, uh 598 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: and so, and they're not working with technology remotely close 599 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: to what is here in the modern day. They were 600 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: tracking this, they were doing this amazing job because they 601 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: wanted to know the religious implications, right, and they were 602 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: ultimately looking for um even though they were doing solid work, 603 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 1: they were ultimately looking for explanations on the acts and 604 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: the moods of the gods. And so ultimately, yeah, as 605 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: a result of that, they ended up inventing calculus. You know, 606 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: about ten tho years before we thought it. It's like 607 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: when you stop and think about what is actually present 608 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: in our capabilities, what we what we can learn to do, 609 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: and what motivates us to do it. As you said, right, So, 610 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: one of the things that I tend to tell my 611 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: students when we learn about philosophy of religion and we 612 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: talk about atheism and agnosticism and belief, one of the 613 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: things I talked about is Okay, so let's talk about 614 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: Islam for a little bit. Right. In Islam, it's a 615 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: commandment to know the works of God, to understand the world. 616 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: It's a responsibility that you dig down via science and 617 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: math and art and figure out the world however you can. 618 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: Because from that perspective, God made this, and God put 619 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: humans here to enjoy it, to experience it, and to 620 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,399 Speaker 1: take care of it, so you better figure it out 621 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 1: pretty fast so that you can and we get mathematical 622 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: like we get mathematical advancements from Islamic cultures around the 623 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: world down through human history. As a result of this, 624 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: we get architectural advancements, we get geometric advances that we 625 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 1: never would have seen if people hadn't been trying to 626 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: accurately reproduce religious experience because God said so. So it's 627 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 1: that's such a great way to put it. Because what 628 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: we're finding is that um Nolan, you and I were 629 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: doing the flat Earth episode earlier with Matt. One thing 630 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: that we found was this whole myth about this entire 631 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 1: myth about people thinking the Earth was flat until what 632 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:50,399 Speaker 1: was its yeah, and that that entire time, um, people 633 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: knew for the the whole time people knew the Earth 634 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: was round. The big argument was like how big is it? 635 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: Not what shape is it? But because there were um 636 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: because there were books that attempted to make science and 637 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: faith seem um ah. I think the phrase we use 638 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: his logger heads, which is an awkward word I was 639 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 1: trying to bring back, but I think I'm gonna have 640 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,359 Speaker 1: to give up on that one. Like logger heads, it's 641 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: it's hard to deploy, but it's a good word. I 642 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: kind of like dropped it and then just kept running 643 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,800 Speaker 1: in the podcast and hoped that no one called called 644 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: me out on it. The best one we had was 645 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: UM in that episode was where no, I think you 646 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: invented it horse wash right, not bad. It's hard to say. 647 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,280 Speaker 1: It could have been used before, but it just occurred 648 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: to me. I'm gonna gets poetic. So what what we're 649 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: learning is that UM not only is it not the 650 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: case that science and faith would be UM mortal enemies 651 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: or irreconcilable, and instead it is the case that for 652 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: much of human civilization the two have been one and 653 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: the same. And that's precisely like when we think and 654 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: talk about alchemy. That's precisely what we're seeing. We're seeing 655 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: this unification of scientific faith and well scientific faith, that's 656 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 1: what we're seeing. We're seeing this scientific exploration what would 657 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 1: later come to be called scientific exploration of faith, of 658 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,800 Speaker 1: the workings of nature, of the operations of God. Because 659 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 1: that's what her medicists alchemists magicians at this time are 660 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,800 Speaker 1: looking for They're looking for, how does God work through nature? 661 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: How is nature this perfect plan that God created that 662 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: you know, works and functions and ticks along perfectly. How 663 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: does that happen? And can we do it? Ah? Yes, 664 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: the million dollar question, the million philosophers still in question, 665 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: and the question we're still trying to answer many levels today. 666 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: So let's end on this note. What is modern alchemy? 667 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: Does the future of alchemy the current this position of 668 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: alchemy as it's understood in the world today. Um, it's 669 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,839 Speaker 1: kind of dichotomists. On the one hand, people look at 670 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: alchemy and look at the processes of alchemy and they 671 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: scoff and they say, um, how could anybody have ever 672 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: been so naive as to think that you could transmute 673 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: lead into gold, when at the same time we have 674 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: a large hadron collider that could do you just that, 675 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: that's true. Like, we have the ability to turn energy 676 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: into matter. We have the ability to do that on 677 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: a very large scale, and we can do it in 678 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: a very small scale. I know a physicist working at 679 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: Agnes Scott right now who could do that in her 680 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: lab when she goes in like later today like she could. 681 00:44:54,160 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: We can make protons and neutrons out of photon. All 682 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,280 Speaker 1: you gotta do is slam them together hard. We can. 683 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 1: We can do this. We can change the atomic weight 684 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,439 Speaker 1: of things. We know how to manipulate things and turn 685 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: them into or give them the properties of other things. 686 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: Now we I think if we brought John d or 687 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: Isaac Newton. Oh yes, also Isaac Newton was a practicing 688 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,799 Speaker 1: alchemist for those of you still unaware about that, Sorry, 689 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: just drop that on you. But like an apple, like 690 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 1: an apple on your head, Isaac Newton alchemists. It is 691 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: interesting though, because I mean, you know, you think about 692 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 1: just the very idea that these processes would be possible 693 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: is pretty innovative in and of itself. You know, the 694 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 1: fact that we're now getting around to catching up with 695 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 1: these ideas. You know, I don't want to speak about 696 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 1: whether or not I believe these things to be true 697 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: or not. The results were reproducible at the time, But 698 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: the idea itself is fascinating, that you can turn one 699 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: material into another, or you know, change these fundamental aspects 700 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 1: of matter, And the fact that we're now getting around 701 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,800 Speaker 1: to it and hundreds of years later is pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, 702 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 1: is if we weren't already doing it in secret, I 703 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: just have to pose that part. Yeah, if it's let's 704 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,280 Speaker 1: put it this way. We mentioned the hidden history of alchemy, 705 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,839 Speaker 1: We mentioned the work being transcribed into coded texts, and 706 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: if there are people out there who have been, you know, 707 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: in the process of reproducing these results, turning themselves into 708 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,479 Speaker 1: philosophers stones being able to understand the energetic processes that 709 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: alter everything, they're probably not just gonna, like, you know, 710 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,359 Speaker 1: tell everybody. That's a very good point, absolutely, I mean, 711 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: beyond the fact that actually being able to turn any 712 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: material into gold would at a fundamental level on upset 713 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:58,400 Speaker 1: the entire world market. Um, if these philosophers were correct 714 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,720 Speaker 1: in their belief that it's about the process that learning 715 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 1: and becoming more that figuring this stuff out and the 716 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 1: change that we undergo as a process of it as 717 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: a result of the process, I mean, then they're not 718 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: gonna want to just tell you right how to do that. 719 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: That's a that's not only it's worse than a cheat 720 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 1: code because it invalidates what you could have done exactly, 721 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: so it cannot be done it it must or it 722 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: cannot be done by reading like the reader's digest or 723 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: the wiki with the cliff notes. You have to go 724 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,799 Speaker 1: through the process. And so imagine, as I said, like 725 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 1: if you bring Isaac Newton or John d today and 726 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,440 Speaker 1: they see what we can do, they see what we've learned, 727 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,399 Speaker 1: they see what we've become as a result of maybe 728 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: not following al chemical processes and spiritual engagement exactly, but 729 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 1: by saying, okay, what works, what can we know, what 730 00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,399 Speaker 1: can we understand? What do we know about nature? And 731 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,319 Speaker 1: then what we have as a species, and what those 732 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: of us who followed those operations directly, who undergo those 733 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 1: operations directly in that search look like today, I think 734 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 1: they'd say that alchemy it was still doing pretty well. 735 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: And on that note, we are going to end our 736 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,040 Speaker 1: first episode together. Damian, thank you so much for coming 737 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:27,240 Speaker 1: on the show. Where can people find more of your work? 738 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: Where can they uh read about you? Maybe talk to 739 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 1: you on the internet, Uh, talk to me on the 740 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: internet on Twitter, that's at wolven that's w O l 741 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 1: v e N. And you can read my work at 742 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:46,000 Speaker 1: a future worth thinking about dot com and technocult dot net. 743 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,160 Speaker 1: All right, and uh we are going to be returning 744 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: next week to Uh no, Damian, I was really happy 745 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 1: with our ability to not talk about the other stuff 746 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: that were super excited talk. Yeah, we showed some very 747 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: good restraint there. I was. I was impressed with I 748 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 1: was impressed with this. Uh. We hope you enjoyed this episode. 749 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: We hope you tune in next week when we cover 750 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:17,160 Speaker 1: technology and the occult, uh, the future of science and magic. 751 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,960 Speaker 1: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you 752 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 1: have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can 753 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: get into contact with us in a number of different ways. 754 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:29,479 Speaker 1: One of the best is to give us a call. 755 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,800 Speaker 1: Our number is one eight three three st d w 756 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 1: y t K. If you don't want to do that, 757 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 1: you can send us a good old fashioned email. We 758 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:42,440 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they 759 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,360 Speaker 1: don't want you to know is a production of I 760 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,600 Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit 761 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,400 Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 762 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.