1 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, I am really pleased 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: to welcome to the program someone I've known for a 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: long time, Brett Beer. Brett is a New York Times 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: bestselling author, award winning chief political anchor for Fox News Channel, 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: the anchor and executive editor of a special Report with 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: Brett Baer. He's joining me today to discuss his first 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: installment in his new book series, which eliminates the life 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: and legacy of one of America's most consequential yet misunderstood leaders. 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: Ulysses asked Grant, whose actions both as general and as 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: president played an unparalleled role in preserving the United States. 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: Bret's new book, To Rescue the Republic. Ulysses asked Grant, 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: The Fragile Union and the Crisis of eighteen seventy six 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: is a significant contribution to understanding the historical record, and 14 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: I am really pleased to welcome Brett Bears my guest. 15 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me. Oh, thank you, thanks for 16 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: having mister bigger. Let's start at the beginning. I mean, 17 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: you have so many different things you've written about Eisenhower, Reagan, 18 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: and FDR. What led you to Grant and what intrigued 19 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: you about him or the time period. Well, you know, 20 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: the last series of books was a three days series 21 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: at the beginning, middle, and end of the Cold War, 22 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: and I tried to focus on some of the things 23 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: that I thought were overlooked or not focused on in history. 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: For Eisenhower's the transition to Kennedy and his farewell address 25 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: and his presidency. For Reagan, it was the final summit 26 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 1: with Gorbachoff in a speech that he gives to Moscow 27 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: State University students that was largely overlooked. And for Fdr 28 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: Churchill in Stalin, it was the Tehran Conference that was 29 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: kind of overshadowed by Yalta, but it's the place that 30 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: make D Day plans. So I was looking for that 31 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: other moment in history that may have been overlooked. And 32 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: I think Grant's presidency is that if you talk about 33 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: Grant's presidency, if anybody knows anything about it at all, 34 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: it's often painted with a broad brush, that there's petty 35 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: corruption and scandals, that he is somehow a drunk the 36 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: entire time, and that it leads to the end of reconstruction, 37 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: which has devastating consequences down the road. And I think 38 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: that that needed to get another look. And as I 39 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 1: dug into it, Knude, I really found that it was 40 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: a consequential presidency. It was a presidency where, yes, there 41 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: was some corruption, that he trusted people that took advantage 42 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: of him. But for him, the whole thing was keeping 43 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: the Union together and winning the piece, in particular making 44 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: sure the process of reconstruction in the South was successful. 45 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: The fourteenth fifteenth amendments are pushed through. He fights the 46 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: KKK with federal troops, and he really does hold the 47 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: Union together. And the climax of the book is the 48 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy six contested election where he makes a grand 49 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: bargain to make it all hold together. You know. I 50 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: think one of the things you pick up on the 51 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: people often misunderstand is that the struggle doesn't end at appomatics. 52 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't end when the overt war ends. There's still 53 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: an enormous effort that threatens the whole survival of the 54 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: Union and in which a substantial number of white Southerners 55 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: are engaged in both trying to repress African Americans but 56 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: also trying to resist the federal government. And Grant through 57 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: all this process is a union man. I mean, he's deeply, 58 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: deeply committed to the Union. What do you think drove 59 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: him to such a deep understanding of the centrality of 60 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: the American system to the whole cause of freedom and 61 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: of individual opportunity. He was not that way at the beginning, 62 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: and I think he came to it over time and 63 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: believed that he was taking Lincoln's torch of that vision 64 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: that Lincoln had of bringing the country together. And then 65 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: seeing when Lincoln is assassinated and Johnson takes over arguably 66 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: one of our worst presidents, if not the worst, in 67 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: taking the country backwards. And I think Grant is somehow 68 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: empowered with the idea that he needs to get the 69 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: country back on track, needs to get the focus back 70 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: on unity and making sure blacks are incorporated into the society. 71 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: I mean, when he is in that eight years, you 72 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: have blacks in Congress, in the US Senate, you have 73 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: them owning property and making livings as citizens. And after 74 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: his presidency it would take ninety two years for the 75 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: next African American to be in the US Senate. It's 76 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: pretty remarkable. What you have here is somebody who had 77 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 1: gone to West Point, had been a soldier, served in 78 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: the Mexican War, then gets out and is actually working 79 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: as a shopkeeper when the Civil War starts. My sense 80 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: is that there was almost no way to imagine this 81 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: guy in eighteen sixty one becoming Grant as he did, 82 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: first as general who wins in the West and then 83 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: defeatily in the East, and then second coming back as 84 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: a guy who really, as you point out, he picks 85 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: up Lincoln's banner at a point where things were really 86 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: a mess, and where Lincoln's choice for vice president, Johnson 87 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: of Tennessee, had turned out to be really much more 88 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: pro secessionist and much less willing to impose the values 89 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: of the United States on people who were still psychologically, 90 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: if not physically and rebellion. He got to know Grant, 91 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: didn't you find him to be a remarkable personality. Remarkable 92 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: I mean from his beginnings which were humble. He does 93 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: not want to be a soldier. His father says, you're 94 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: going to West Point. He kind of goes kicking and screaming, 95 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: and you know, when he goes to West Point, he's 96 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: told that the appointment is under the name Ulysses S. Grant, 97 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: and his name is High Room Ulysses Grant, and so 98 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: he becomes Ulysses S. Grant. The s doesn't stand for anything, 99 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: and he finds out he's an average student, but a 100 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: really good horseman and a great soldier. He finds that 101 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: out in the Mexican American War, is very admirably thought 102 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,559 Speaker 1: of as a soldier there and does some heroic things, 103 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: and then his life kind of takes a turn. He 104 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: goes out west to the Northwest Territory. He does start drinking. 105 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: He's a small, slight guy and he doesn't handle his 106 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: liquor well. The commander busts him and says, you're going 107 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: to either resign your post or get court martialed. He 108 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: decides to resign, goes back to Galena, Illinois, and to 109 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: your point, he starts this spiral. He's not good at farming, 110 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: he's not good at business. He ends up selling firewood 111 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: to make ends meet. In three years from that he 112 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: would be the general in charge of the Union Army. 113 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: I think what Lincoln saw in Grant was someone who 114 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: was humble, patient, kind of an internal leader, but also unshakable. 115 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: And once he starts winning these battles, it becomes evident 116 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: that he is almost a military savant in the way 117 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: that he can look at a battlefield. Sherman talks about 118 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: it a lot about how he's just blown away, and 119 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: then that popularity in that moment launches him to become 120 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: obviously the eighteenth president and on stay. You know, I 121 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: think in that sense there's an odd kind of inevitability 122 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: once he has become Grant. It's easy for us to 123 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: forget that the Civil War involved more deaths than every 124 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: other American war up through Vietnam combined, and that for 125 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: a country that size, it was an extraordinarily painful, searing moment. 126 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: And the two people who were most responsible for Northern 127 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: victory are Lincoln and Grant. And when Lincoln is killed, 128 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: Grant is sort of standing in isolation watching President Johnson. 129 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: And I think you're probably right, either Johnson or Buchanan's 130 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: the worst president of American history, and Johnson probably more 131 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: so than Buchanan, because he's trying to throw away the 132 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: victory that the North had won so painfully. And here's Grant, 133 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: who was the symbol of the victory. And it's interesting 134 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: that he doesn't exactly run for president. Describe that for 135 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: a second, because it's so classically Grant like. How he 136 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: ends up in the White House. Well, he has never 137 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: wanted to be in political office. He says to all 138 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: his friends that the only office that I really wanted 139 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: to ever run for was mayor of Galina so that 140 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: I could build a sidewalk from my house to the depot. 141 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: And his great story when he finishes as Union General 142 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: is coming back and they throw him a big parade 143 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: in Galina and he's going down the road and there's 144 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: a huge sign that says, General, the sidewalk is finished. 145 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: He didn't really have any aspirations to be president, but 146 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: he does find some standing up to Johnson that he 147 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: really feels as important and makes them stands on principle, 148 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: standing up to a couple of things that Johnson wants 149 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: to do. And Johnson wants to get rid of him 150 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: out of the picture and wants to send him to 151 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: Mexico at one point on a diplomatic mission, and Grant 152 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: fights it and says, you know, if you're going to 153 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: give me a military order, i'll go. But this is 154 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: civilian and I'm not doing it. And it was pretty 155 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: stunning at the cabinet meeting to say that he's cruded 156 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: to be president and he doesn't even vote for himself. 157 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: He's kind of run in and it is a landslide 158 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: by far because he's the most popular figure of the time. 159 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: And to your point, fast forward when he dies. You know, 160 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: at his funeral a million people line the streets of 161 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: New York City and there bring out their old uniforms 162 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: Union and Confederate. And the pall bearers of his funeral 163 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: are two Union generals and two Confederate generals. So he 164 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: had this ability to be victorious in the North but 165 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: magnanimous in the South, even though he was the defeating general. 166 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: And it's interesting he wanted out some things. Candidly, I 167 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: did not know pretty good bit about Grant as general, 168 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: but I, like most Americans, I hadn't paid much attention 169 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: to Grant as president. And one of the things that 170 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: comes through in your book that I think is fascinating 171 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: is Grant is actively pursuing protecting black rights in the South. 172 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: As you point out that on April twenty and eighteen 173 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: seventy twenty signs quote an Act to enforce the provisions 174 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: of the fourteenth Amendment, which is also known as the 175 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: ku Klux Klan Act. So here is a guy who 176 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: is willing to use the army of the United States 177 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: to protect the rights of African Americans, and to impose 178 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: change in a region, particularly like South Carolina or parts 179 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: of Tennessee, where there's really very active, hostile and at 180 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: times very violent opposition. Even though the war was over, 181 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: the skirmishing wasn't over. Did that surprise you how much 182 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: continuing opposition there was in that period? Yeah, I mean, basically, Johnson, 183 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: I think, gave the green light to some of those 184 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: Confederate holdouts that this was their time, and so there 185 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: was a rising up, a bubbling up of you know, 186 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: we say it's the KKK, but in reality, it's this 187 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: white militia, that of former Confederate soldiers who believe that 188 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: this was their time to stand up and try again, 189 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: if you will. When Grant signs that act, he does 190 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: it because in the fourteenth amendment's getting undermined. It's getting 191 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: undermined by the South not paying attention to it, number one, 192 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: and by the Supreme Court frankly undermining it a number 193 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: of different ways. So it is a battle, a constant battle, 194 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: and you can't get your head around it now that 195 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: it is the Republican Party and there are things called 196 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: radical Republicans at the time who are really really fighting 197 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: for black rights and the success of the black community. 198 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: You point out, and this really was a fascinating surprise 199 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 1: to me that on March first, eighteen seventy five, in 200 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: act the Civil Rights Act, which actually prohibited racial discrimination 201 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: in public places and facilities, something we won't revisit basically 202 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: for almost another ninety years, which is just shocking if 203 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: you think about that. I mean, here is this Act 204 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: which essentially gets unwound and undermined in a series of 205 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: different motions, but Grant is pushing for that very thing 206 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: that it'll take Lyndon Johnson to do later. The contest 207 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: of eighteen seventy six, which is pretty complicated, but it 208 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: also has a kind of bitter suite component to it, 209 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: and that in a sense, the UNUS saved unless you 210 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: were African American, and I think in that sense it 211 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: was a fairly corrupt bargain. But at the same time, 212 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: the alternative may have been a civil war. First of all, 213 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: just for the average person, including me. Can you walk 214 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: through how they stumbled into this mess and what had 215 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: happened is a practical matter, so that they're particularly given 216 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: what we just lived through in the last few months. 217 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: I mean, they really did have a problem in terms 218 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: of how they were going to get the electoral college 219 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: to work. And also the book starts on January six. 220 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: Is I'm covering that and it does give you a 221 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: perspective on where we've been before as a country, so 222 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: that we can kind of get a perspective that we 223 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: can get through the things that we are dealing with now. 224 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: In eighteen seventy six, Rutherford B. Hayes is the Republican, 225 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: Samuel Tilden is the Democrat, and it's a very close election. 226 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: But there are three states that are sending up two 227 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: sets of electors Florida, Louisiana, and South Carolina. They cannot 228 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: come to a conclusion. They send up two sets, one 229 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: for Ruther for be Hayes, one for Samuel Tilda. The 230 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: election is in doubt. It's tied. Essentially, you had one 231 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: way Hayes wins, the other way Tilden wins. And it 232 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: is on pause, locked down for weeks. And during that time, 233 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: violence star bubbling up in different cities in the South, 234 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: as well as threats on the capitol, and Grant is 235 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how he can get involved and 236 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: act without putting his finger on the scale. Obviously, he 237 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: would prefer that Rutherford B. Hayes be the winner as 238 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: a fellow Republican, but he knows that the most important 239 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: thing is that it be transparent and legitimate Congress and 240 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: that the country believe that the winner is the winner. 241 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: So he tries to structure of this electoral commission, and 242 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: it takes him a long time to get Congress to 243 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: do it. But the commission is set up with five 244 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: House members, three Republicans and two Democrats, five Senate members 245 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: three Democrats and two Republicans, and five Supreme Court justices 246 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: split up by who appointed them and one who is 247 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: supposed to be neutral, and Justice Bradley fell into that role. 248 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: They still can't get to a conclusion, and finally you 249 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: talk about smoke filled rooms in the back of Washington 250 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: that solve things. At the Wormley Hotel, there is this 251 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: get together led by the shadowy figure Edward Burke, who 252 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: is in Louisiana, who is working for the Democrat challenger 253 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: in the Louisiana governor's race, and essentially they come up 254 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: with this deal that the Democrats would win the state 255 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: houses where they're contested as well in Louisiana and South Carolina, 256 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: and federal troops would be pulled out of the South, 257 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: autonomy would be essentially given to the Southern states. However, 258 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: the South would agree to uphold equality for blacks and 259 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: black communities and sign on to protecting Southern blacks. So 260 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: Grant feels that, yes it's dangerous, yes it's tough, but 261 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: he thinks that reconstruction has run its core because it's 262 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: getting pushed back from the South so much, and the 263 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: North even that this promise is something that he agrees to. Now, 264 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: if Ronald Reagan was there in eighteen seventy six, he 265 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: would say, trust but verify. But the promise didn't work, 266 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: and the South doesn't live up to its promise of 267 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: equality for blacks and across the board. And I think 268 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: Grant in his writing suggests that he hoped that the 269 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: next presidents would take the baton that he did the 270 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: Lincoln vision, and they didn't, and so that leads to 271 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: a lot. It leads to eventually the Jim Crow laws 272 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: and civil rights atrocities, and I think a lot of 273 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: that in history then falls back to Grant, and maybe 274 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: that's why his presidency is so overlooked. Part of that 275 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: is also I noticed that as you were writing it 276 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: that the Democrat governor of New York, Samuel Children, actually 277 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: come across as a pretty honorable guy. That there's a 278 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: point where there's a real effort at particularly in South Carolina, 279 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: to bribe the outcome. And he says, no, what do 280 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: you think motivated Tilden? I think he too felt like 281 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: the country was tipping back to a civil war, and 282 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: his inclination and everything that we dug up was not 283 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: to fight, but to negotiate. And you know, arguably Tilden 284 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: really won. There's all kinds of back and forth about 285 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: who pressured who and what kind of efforts were made 286 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: to stop the vote, especially for blacks in the South 287 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: at that time, but Tilden is seen as this figure 288 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: who is willing to fall on his sword for the 289 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: betterment of the country. Yeah. I mean, I think that's 290 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: a very important part of this. You had, particularly a 291 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: group of northern Democrats who really were committed to the 292 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: preservation of the Union, even if it wasn't quite what 293 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: they wanted, and even at the cost of personal ambition. 294 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: And then Hayes I could never quite decide whether it 295 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: was a function of exhaustion that the country had just 296 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: you know, they'd been at this now since the mid 297 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: eighteen fifties, when you began to get bloody Kansas, and 298 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: you began to get violence on a sporadic basis, and 299 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: then of course a huge civil war, And so to 300 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: some extent, I just wondered if the country hadn't kind 301 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: of burned out on the ability to impose its will. 302 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: That's probably true. Hayes has seen as kind of slow 303 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: walking a lot of things, and he eventually does get 304 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: to the things that they agreed to. But I think 305 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: that's a great way to put it. There was exhaustion 306 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: from the Civil War, there was exhaustion from the eighteen 307 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: seventy six violence that came from the election, and they 308 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: really wanted just a calm period, which in the short 309 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: term was a bad thing for Blacks. I read the 310 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: memoir of Grant's personal assistant during the war just as 311 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: an example of how different the world was. He cites 312 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: Grant leaving Appomatox, having received Lee's surrender, getting on the 313 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: train to go back to Washington, and while they're riding 314 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: the train that afternoon, Grant is signing orders to disband 315 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: the Union army on the grounds that the taxpayers should 316 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: not have to pay for the troops for one day 317 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: longer than necessary. You look at that model and you 318 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: look at how we operate today. Grant was really in 319 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: a different world than ours. He really was, and you 320 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: know that military aid. Adam Badow wrote that Grant new 321 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: poverty and failure, and he learned patience, and he also 322 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: learned that you had to get things done and solve things, 323 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: and that he was a problem solver. He had this 324 00:20:53,960 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: ability to not only be unshakable and have this cold resolve, 325 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: unconditional surrender was his nickname, and other presidents took that. 326 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: FDR used that in negotiating with Churchill, saying that that's 327 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: where they needed to be, pointing back to Grant. So 328 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: there are a lot of things that come from Grant 329 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: as general, not as many that come from Grant as president. 330 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,719 Speaker 1: As you went through your research and really gave yourself 331 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: a chance to be surrounded by Grant, did you find that, 332 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: in addition to respect him, that you actually kind of 333 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: liked him more than you thought you would. One hundred 334 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: percent nude. I really did. In this process, I got 335 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: to know him a lot better, and I read the 336 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: Turnout book. I read everything about Grant but I did 337 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: not feel sort of the personal aspect to it, and 338 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: over time I did. And you know, he's really good 339 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: friends with Mark Twain. And at the end of his life, 340 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: as you know the story, he loses all of his 341 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: money and in another thing that he's trusting people and 342 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: he invests and loses all his money, and he starts 343 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: to write his Civil War recollections for magazine. Mark Twain says, 344 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: how much are they paying you? And he says five 345 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: hundred dollars and he gets livid. Twain does because he's 346 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: not making enough money for this. Gold Grant is an 347 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: amazing writer, so good that people thought Twain was writing it, 348 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: but he says he barely edited it. So he starts 349 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: writing his memoir. He gets the throat cancer to the 350 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: point where he can barely get through the day. They 351 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: spray cocaine in the back of his throat so he 352 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: can swallow. He's in blankets and he's writing because he 353 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: knows this deadline is coming and he wants to provide 354 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: for Julia and his family. And he finishes the memoir 355 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: Longhand and then dies a few days later. I actually 356 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: think it's probably the best single book on the Civil 357 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: War historian who had studied leadership said, the amazing thing 358 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: about Grant is the clarity of his orders. That he 359 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: could write in very few words exactly what he wanted 360 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: you to do. You thoroughly understood it. And it's a 361 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: little hard to know where that came from. I mean, 362 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: he doesn't do although well academically. At West Point, he's 363 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: you know, hanging out there combating a little bit of 364 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: an alcohol problem. He's running a sore. As you point out, 365 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: he ends up selling firewood, and all of a sudden 366 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: he turns around and this capacity to lead, in this 367 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,959 Speaker 1: capacity to write, just blossom in a matter of probably 368 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: five or six months. It's amazing. It really is amazing. 369 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: I think, you know, some of it comes from his 370 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: time as a soldier in the Mexican American War. He's 371 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: under Zachary Taylor and Winfield Scott and others. Roberty Lee 372 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: is down to the Mexican American War. I do think 373 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: that there's this mutual respect from the people who serve 374 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: with him that suddenly they have this sense that he's 375 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: just an internal leader, and it exudes from him even 376 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: though he looks, you know, kind of shabby. He's small, 377 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: he wears shabby uniform. The great story is when Lincoln 378 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: calls him up to get his fourth star for commanding 379 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: Union forces. He gets called to the hotel the Willard 380 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: next to the White House, which is very fancy, and 381 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: he walks in and again in a shabby uniform with 382 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: his son Fred, and he comes up to the clerk 383 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: and the clerk looks at him and says, we do 384 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: not have rooms for you. And they said, well, maybe 385 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: we have a small closet like room up on the 386 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: top floor. And Grant, being unpretentious and self effacing, says, well, 387 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: that's fine. I'm fine with that, turns to his son 388 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: and he signs the register US Grant and son Galena, Illinois. 389 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 1: And the clerk looks at it and turns white and 390 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: goes and gets to the hotel manager, and then they 391 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: are escorted to the bridal suite. As the general who 392 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: has known so well you have a similar portrait, I 393 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: guess a year earlier. The first time he actually comes 394 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: to the White House, he wanders into this reception that 395 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: Lincoln is hosting, and he's so small that he doesn't 396 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: stand out at Oh, I mean, people have no idea 397 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: who he is, and here's this guy, and he always 398 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: tended to wear a private's blouse, which I think was 399 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: partly his way of representing the common man in the 400 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: sense of the Union Army as a force of citizens. 401 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: He's got to standing in this room being quiet, unannounced, 402 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: and Lincoln finally spots him. But you have this gigantically 403 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: tall president for that era and this really short little 404 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: guy who's the guy winning the war. It's just a 405 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: great scene. Yeah, he didn't meet the image that everybody 406 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: thought of this winning victorious general, to the point where 407 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: an artist photographer literally chopped off the top of his 408 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: head and put it on a more stately sitting general 409 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: on a horse. So it's like the first photoshop of 410 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: Civil War, because they felt like the papers needed to 411 00:25:48,359 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: have a better image of the general winning. There are 412 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: two moments that I was really struck with in studying 413 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: Grant many years ago. One is he's come back. He's 414 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: in the army now because he had Congressman Washburn, who 415 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: was very close to Lincoln, has sponsored Grant and said, look, 416 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: give him a command, let's see what he can do. 417 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: So he has his first regiment, he trains them, and 418 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: they're going to go down the river on a steamboat, 419 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: and they're going to take an embankment that the Confederates 420 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: are entrenched on. And in his memoir Grant Rights, you know, 421 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: I lay awake called night. I was really worried. I 422 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: didn't know if my troops would run. I didn't know 423 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: if they would actually stay and fight. I didn't know 424 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,719 Speaker 1: what the Confederates were up to. So they go down 425 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: the river in the morning, they arrive at the site, 426 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: they get off the boat, and all of the rifle 427 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: pits are empty because the Confederate during the night decided 428 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: to leave. In Grant Rights, something which I remembered in 429 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: my entire career, he said, I suddenly realized the other 430 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: guy was scared too. He said, for the rest of 431 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: the war, when we get into a really tough fight, 432 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: I'd stop and remember, oh, yeah, however tired we are, 433 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: they're tired too. And you get this kind of phlegmatic 434 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: capacity on his part. And then the other thing which 435 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: I used to tell our people about when we were 436 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: trying to become a majority. I would walk down the 437 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: mall with him, come back up, and we'd always end 438 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: at Grant's statue looking out towards Lee's family home. And 439 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: I'd talk about what the war had meant and all that, 440 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: and the fact that at Shiloh Landing, in the first 441 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: really big fight, the Confederates have surprised the Union Army 442 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: Grant's forces and had driven them back to the river 443 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: where they're sheltering under the gunboats. And Sherman writes in 444 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: his memoir that up until then, the Union Army would 445 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: get a bloody nose and pull back. And so he 446 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: walked over to where Grant's tent was was the drizzling rain. 447 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: The ten had been taken over as the field hospital 448 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: to amputate Limb's. Grant sitting under a tree on a 449 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: little canvas tripod seat Whittling, and Sherman walks up, thinking 450 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: he's going to say, yes, we're going to pull back tomorrow. 451 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: And he says to Grant, they whipped us pretty good today. 452 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: And Grant, without even looking up, still sitting at whittling 453 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: and goes, yeah, lick him in the morning, though, and 454 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: Sherman writes, at that moment I decided I wouldn't recommend withdraw. 455 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: I think it's the most important single conversation in the 456 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: Civil War, because they talk about the fact that the 457 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: South isn't going to quit that the South, Sirius, and 458 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: that in fact, they have to assume that they will 459 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: have to destroy the South's capacity to wage war in 460 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: order to win, because the South will never negotiate the 461 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: end of the war. And from that comes the entire 462 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: strategy that ultimately with Lincoln's strong support. I think Lincoln's 463 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: the greatest strategist of the war, and I think both 464 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: Grant and Sherman felt that way. But the three of 465 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: them suddenly they now have a model. They know what 466 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: they're going to do, and they set out to do it. 467 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: And the calmness of Grant, unlike Sherman, who's very up 468 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: and down, but Grant under almost every circumstance is really calm. 469 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: And it's part of the characteristic that he had somehow acquired. 470 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: And it may have been by having to go through 471 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: the process of giving up alcohol and disciplining yourself that 472 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: he became this kind of person. Yeah, and you know, 473 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: that patience, that calm that resolved, and then he is 474 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: really considered in the South respected. You know, he's meeting 475 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: this former Confederate soldier who had fought troops at Fort 476 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: Donaldson and Champion Hill and Grant says to him, I 477 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: honor all Confederate soldiers, and they're all brave and conscientious. Man. 478 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: You're not the fault here. Basically, your leaders were. They 479 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: knew that the Southern Confederacy was impossible and not to 480 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: be and I was. He tells them, not against the South, 481 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: but for it in every battle. And I felt sympathy 482 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: for you, and I was fighting for the North end 483 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: the South. And so his writings suggest in those meetings 484 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: with Confederates suggest that his motivation even back then was 485 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: keeping the Union together and winning the piece. And I 486 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: think that that comes out in all of his actions. 487 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: That is the driving force behind what he's doing well, 488 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: and what you've done in your book to rescue the 489 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: Republic is I think recentered Grant as a person who 490 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: had a much deeper strategic vision of how do we 491 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: sustain the Union and how do we get people to 492 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: decide that they want to be Americans at a point 493 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: where there was still enormous bitterness and there were still 494 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: a tremendous frustration and the potential for the whole thing 495 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: to just break down again. And I'm not sure in 496 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: the absence of a Lincoln, I'm not sure that the 497 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: North would have had the energy and the courage to 498 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: try to militarily impose on the South. I think that 499 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: maintaining this relative peace and getting most Southerners committed back 500 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: to the Union was extraordinarily important. The best of my knowledge, 501 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: I think you've written the only book that really captures 502 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: the Grant presidency in the context of the struggle of 503 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: the country was going through with itself. Your subtitle Ulysses S. Grant, 504 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: The Fragile Union and the Crisis of eighteen seventy six 505 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: really captures here's a thing that could still have broken down, 506 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: and that Grant is very aware that he both has 507 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: to keep it together and not push so hard that 508 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: it will collapse. I think it's a very serious and 509 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: significant contribution both to understanding Grant but also to understanding 510 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: American history in a way that very few people have written. Oh. 511 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: I appreciate that, Thank you very much. I mean, it's 512 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: been a labor of love, and I think that my 513 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: takeaway from the whole thing is that, you know, to 514 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: keep our republic even today requires constant vigilance. You know, 515 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: freedoms aren't automatically given. They have to be pursued, and 516 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: one repeatedly, and each new election is kind of that 517 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: symbol of our faith in ourselves as a nation. And 518 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: that's what Grant is driving at. That's what I take 519 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: away from his actions. And I think it's a little 520 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: fun to say, what would Grant think today? What would 521 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: Lincoln think today? I think the country would be very 522 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: different if Grant had gone to for theater as he 523 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: was invited to by the Lincolns. He had a lot 524 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: of guilt about not being there. He thinks he could 525 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: have stopped booth or done something. He was likely a 526 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: target too, and we talk about that in the book 527 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: as well. But if it's not Lincoln Johnson, and if 528 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: it's Lincoln and another term of Lincoln and then a Grant, 529 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,479 Speaker 1: think about where the country is. I mean, it's a 530 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: much different different place, and we've been very dark places 531 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: in our country's history, so it helps to get perspective today. Yeah, 532 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: I can't let you go without asking, given the quality 533 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: of the work you do when I think about you 534 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: every night putting together special report and still finding a 535 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: way to do all this research and to write as 536 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: well as you do, so I just have to ask you, 537 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: if you can say it, what comes next. So first 538 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: of all, let me give credit to a team that 539 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: I've worked with for four books now. And I have 540 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: a researcher who I found in the first book. She 541 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: is a former mayor of Salina, Kansas, that is the 542 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: little town next to Abilene. And I went to look 543 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: at Eisenhower and start writing about that, and they said, well, 544 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: this is Sidney Soderberg. She's the one, and she finds 545 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: these nuggets that hadn't been discovered before I met her 546 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: a speaker and I had said, I'd love to hire 547 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: you for this book. And she said, I watch your 548 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: show and I said that's great, thank you. And she 549 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: said I like your showns. That's even better. And she said, 550 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: but I need you to know that I am a 551 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: true blue Kansas Democrat. And I said that's great. I'm 552 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: a newsman and I'm really into history, so this is 553 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: going to work great. So we started that relationship. Co 554 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: author Katherine Whitney and I work really well together, and 555 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: we bounced back and forth and we put these nuggets 556 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: that Sydney finds in this kind of quilt and then 557 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: stitch it together. I work at night a couple hours 558 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 1: a night to do it. We are in the process, 559 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: Sydney has been deployed, and I think we're going to 560 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: go backwards to rescue the Constitution. We're in the process 561 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: of digging those nuggets now, which is just a lot 562 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: of fun, a lot of fun. We're certainly going to 563 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: have the link on our show page so that they 564 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: can purchase the current nugget to rescue the Republic. But 565 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: I also want to extend to you an invitation when 566 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: the next book comes out. We'd love to have this 567 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: kind of conversation again and share with our audience the 568 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: kind of things you do, which I think are remarkable, 569 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: and particularly remarkable given the burden you carry and the 570 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: wait you have with Special Report, which is really the 571 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: remarkable show and one which in a very calm and 572 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: methodical way, brings the news every single day. So you're 573 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: obviously quite busy. I am busy, but it's a lot 574 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: of fun and it's been great. My wife says, probably 575 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: the next book, we're going to take a break after 576 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: that one, but we'll see. You know Amy, I mean, 577 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: she runs the show. She can be pretty persuasive. She 578 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: ain't close to both have this knack of somehow getting 579 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: our attention despite ourselves that's right exactly. Brett, thank you 580 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: so much for being here today, and I really look 581 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: forward to your next work. Thanks Nude, I really appreciate it. 582 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests Brett Bear. You can get 583 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book to Rescue the Republic, 584 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: Ulysses US Grant, The Fragile Union and the Crisis of 585 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy six on our show page at Newtsworld dot com. 586 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: News World is produced by Gingwige three sixty and iHeartMedia. 587 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, 588 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 589 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Pendley. Special thanks to the 590 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: team at Gingwidge three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsword, 591 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 592 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 593 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 594 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld can sign up for my three free weekly 595 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,879 Speaker 1: columns at Gingwidge three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 596 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: Newt Gangridge. This is Newtsword