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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from house

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Holly Frying and I'm Tray C. V. Wilson. Hey, Tracy,

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Speaker 1: do you want a time travel quite a ways today

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Speaker 1: I do put on whatever outfit works for that, UM

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Speaker 1: that's comfy. So we're traveling back in time about a

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Speaker 1: thousand years or so to Viking Denmark. And we've talked

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Speaker 1: about before. It's come up kind of in passing that

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Speaker 1: the word Viking gets used to, uh kind of lump

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Speaker 1: together a lot of different things, So we're not gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about Viking things a whole lot. Just know that

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Speaker 1: this falls under that category. Well, and sometimes we will

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Speaker 1: get emails from people that's sake you do a podcast

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Speaker 1: on the history of the Vikings, And that answer is no,

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Speaker 1: because well, it would be an entirely new UM podcast brand.

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Speaker 1: That would be series, a hundred part series called the

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Speaker 1: History of the Vikings. It would be great. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff, and part of it, as well discussed today,

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Speaker 1: is that a lot of that history is still contentiously

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Speaker 1: debated among historians. Uh So, I mean it's rich and

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Speaker 1: fertile soil to do an entire podcast about but you know,

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Speaker 1: we cover all kinds of history, So today we're doing

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Speaker 1: this one little narrow bit, and we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: Yelling dynasty of Denmark. If that's something you want to

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Speaker 1: go do a search for on your own. Yelling is

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Speaker 1: spelled to the J at the beginning, so it's like

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Speaker 1: jelling if you look at it, and you're normally a

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Speaker 1: an American English speaker. So the Yelling dynasty is often

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Speaker 1: referred to as the beginning of the Danish monarchy, and

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Speaker 1: that point, just as many points that we'll talk about,

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Speaker 1: is argued by historians, and rightly so, because there were

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Speaker 1: certainly people there who had leadership of some sort before that. Uh,

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Speaker 1: But this is when it first started being called Denmark,

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Speaker 1: and this is a time and place in history where

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Speaker 1: our knowledge is really pretty fuzzy. So keep all of

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Speaker 1: that in mind as we go forward. So part of

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Speaker 1: the problem with this particular piece of history stems from

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Speaker 1: the fact that around the year twelve hundred, two different

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Speaker 1: historians wrote the first known written accounts of Denmark's early royalty.

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Speaker 1: Both been Aggisson and Saxo Grammaticus describe the people and

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Speaker 1: events evolved in great detail, but those two accounts contradicted

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Speaker 1: each other in a whole lot of instances. We don't

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Speaker 1: even know how much of the writing and He's in

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Speaker 1: each case is the recording of oral history that had

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Speaker 1: been handed down, which would automatically include some shifts in

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Speaker 1: its accuracy, versus how much could have been could have

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Speaker 1: been author embellishment and the result of viewing the information

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Speaker 1: through their own contemporary lenses. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: fuzziness there is. Uh. It's one of the reasons I'm

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Speaker 1: sometimes reluctant to do things from this period. I feel

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Speaker 1: like we have to caveat everything and go, you don't

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Speaker 1: know this for sure, so that will happen. Just brace uh,

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Speaker 1: and to start off in a nebulous place. We do

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Speaker 1: not know when God Gamle or Gorm the Old who

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Speaker 1: was often cited as the first King of Denmark was born.

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Speaker 1: As a personal side note, that is Gorm g o

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Speaker 1: r M. For my nerdy friends out there. If you

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Speaker 1: think I didn't type this g O r in every

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Speaker 1: single time, initially rest assured that I did. But there

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Speaker 1: is absolutely no Star Trek reference in the Estimates for

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Speaker 1: Gorm's birth state are all over the place from the

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Speaker 1: late eight hundreds through the early nine hundreds, and we

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Speaker 1: do not know as well who Gorm's mother was. Gorm's father,

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Speaker 1: Heart had left his son in a state of land

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Speaker 1: that he had claimed through force, and Gorm augmented the

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Speaker 1: family's property holdings. This was the time when Denmark wasn't

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Speaker 1: one united kingdom. It was just the assortment of provinces,

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Speaker 1: and each was governed by a chief who served as

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Speaker 1: its king. Eventually, Gorm had accumulated a really significant chunk

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Speaker 1: of land, and Gore married a woman named Tira or

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Speaker 1: Tira sometimes you'll hear it pronounced in both this. N

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Speaker 1: Aggisson Saxo Grammaticus accounts she came from England, although we

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Speaker 1: do not know if that is accurate. The identity of

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Speaker 1: her parents is unknown, although she may well have been

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Speaker 1: part of a powerful or wealthy family. There's certainly some

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Speaker 1: indication of that, and thus that she was strategically important

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Speaker 1: in marriage. Her father has been guessed at as any

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Speaker 1: number of historically significant figures, from Ethelred of Wessex to

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Speaker 1: the king of Jutland at the time, who was Harold Klak.

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Speaker 1: According to legend, Gorm promised to give Tira all of

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Speaker 1: Denmark as a morning gift, as a gift given by

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Speaker 1: a husband to his wife the morning after their marriage

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Speaker 1: is consummated. But according to customs of other Scandinavian cultures

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Speaker 1: at the time, the morning gift was actually inherited by

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Speaker 1: the wife only after the husband's death. So can I

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Speaker 1: keep this bit tucked away in your memory, because towards

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Speaker 1: the end of this episode we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: this establishment of lineage and inheritance. Gorm and Tira had children,

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Speaker 1: and depending on what source you look at, the number

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Speaker 1: and sexes of those children vary. You might see only

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Speaker 1: Harold Blotton Gormson listed as a son, or Harold and

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Speaker 1: his brother Canude. Donna asked, sometimes there's another son, and

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Speaker 1: on occasion there's also a sister mentioned, So somewhere between

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Speaker 1: one and four children. According to one legend if it

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Speaker 1: mentions the brother Canude, Canude was killed in a skirmish

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Speaker 1: with another power, and Tira had the entire hall of

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Speaker 1: the royal house either painted black or hung with black cloth,

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Speaker 1: and walking in and seeing that darkened hall was how

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Speaker 1: Gorm found out the news of his son's demise. As

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Speaker 1: a side note, the name Latin in Harold's name translates

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Speaker 1: to bluetooth. We don't know why exactly he had that name,

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Speaker 1: although the most common speculation is that he had a visible,

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Speaker 1: visibly damaged or rotten tooth. And yes, we're going to

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Speaker 1: come back to that name in modern technology later on.

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Speaker 1: And I should mention I should have mentioned it at

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Speaker 1: the top of the episode. Uh, this was sugested by

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Speaker 1: a listener, I believe on social and I don't have

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Speaker 1: the name attached to it. So whoever you are, thank you,

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Speaker 1: because this was lovely and he specifically mentioned it because

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Speaker 1: of the name Bluetooth. So going back in when his

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Speaker 1: queen Tira died, Gorm had a runed stone erected in

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Speaker 1: her memory. The stone is significant and that it's the

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Speaker 1: first known time a king of Denmark referenced his country

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Speaker 1: by that name. It's also the oldest known example of

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Speaker 1: a Danish king's words, and this stone refers to Tira

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Speaker 1: as the pride of Denmark. Sometimes you'll also see it

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Speaker 1: written now as the adornment of Denmark. Some histories, though,

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Speaker 1: indicate that Tira actually outlived her husband. There are also

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Speaker 1: medieval texts that are really unclear as to this whole timeline.

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Speaker 1: Tira's impact on the narrative of Denmark's early history as

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Speaker 1: a monarch is also characterized in it's a lot of

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Speaker 1: different ways. Sometimes it's credited she's credited with saving the

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Speaker 1: country from conquest. Sometimes she's credited with saving Denmark from

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Speaker 1: a famine. She's also in some writings cast as the

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Speaker 1: architect of afforda fine wall along Denmark's southern border, although

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Speaker 1: archaeologists have determined that the wall that the tail were

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Speaker 1: first he was built long before her time as queen,

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Speaker 1: in the early seven hundreds or maybe even earlier, And

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Speaker 1: so we don't know the exact year of Tira's death,

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Speaker 1: But because Gorm referred to himself as king on her

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Speaker 1: ruined stone, and again, as we said, this is all nebulous,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk a lot about the stones

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Speaker 1: in the timeline in a moment. But based on his

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Speaker 1: rude stone, it appears to have been after his reign began,

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Speaker 1: which was four and in the winter of ninety eight

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Speaker 1: nine fifty nine, Gorm the Old died and at the

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Speaker 1: time he was possibly laid to rest in the same

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Speaker 1: burial mound as Queen Tira, now known as the North Mound.

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Speaker 1: But again we do not know the exact location of

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Speaker 1: Tira's burial, So this is another one of those hazy points.

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Speaker 1: We are going to come back to Tira's resting place

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Speaker 1: and this stone. As I said in just a bit,

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Speaker 1: Harold blattin Gormson became the King of Denmark when Corn

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Speaker 1: when gorm died, and at the time the Viking kingdom

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Speaker 1: was polytheistic. But Harold perhaps knew that converting to Christianity

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Speaker 1: would open the door to trade with other European powers,

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Speaker 1: and so he decided that the Dames would be Christians.

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Speaker 1: And as with all aspects of this story, this conversion

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Speaker 1: to Christianity is characterized in multiple different ways in historical writings.

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Speaker 1: By some accounts, he was more or less forced into

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Speaker 1: transitioning the country's religion to Christianity, ever after having been

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Speaker 1: bested in battle by a Christian nation, but in other

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Speaker 1: writings he's described as coming to this decision through his

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Speaker 1: own interest and eventual spiritual conversion. His reign was one

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Speaker 1: of relative peace within Denmark, although he did meet with

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Speaker 1: a mix of success and failure in his efforts to

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Speaker 1: expand Denmark's lands through conquest. King Harold died in the

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Speaker 1: autumn of nine eighty. His sons, Finn fork Beard may

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Speaker 1: have been a rebellious upstart with eyes on the Yelling throne,

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Speaker 1: and one of his supporters, one of spinn supporters, may

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Speaker 1: have been the one to have shot and killed the

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Speaker 1: king dead with an arrow. Harold's body was interred at

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Speaker 1: a church that he had begun construction on. In eighteen twenty,

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Speaker 1: excavators working in the burial mounds at Yelling discovered an

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Speaker 1: empty tomb. The only things inside of it were a

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Speaker 1: silver cup and some other small items. Dating The beams

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Speaker 1: in the in the tomb indicated that they were cut

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Speaker 1: right around the time that Gorm the Old had died.

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Speaker 1: But if the tomb meant was meant to hold the king,

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Speaker 1: where was his body? And that question actually wasn't answered

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Speaker 1: until the early nineteen seventies. In nineteen seventy's remains were

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Speaker 1: found in the remains of a wooden church that had

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Speaker 1: been built by Harold after he was christened, and as

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Speaker 1: part of this shift to Christianity, It's believed that Harold

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Speaker 1: had his father reburied in the church rather than the mound.

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Speaker 1: After Gorm's remains were discovered, they were studied at Copenhagen's

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Speaker 1: University and National Museum for several decades. Based on the

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Speaker 1: studies of the remains, it's estimated that he was approximately

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Speaker 1: fifty years old and he died, and that would have

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Speaker 1: put his birth around the year nine oh a. He

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Speaker 1: was five ft seven or a hundred seventy two tall,

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Speaker 1: and he had rheumatism in his lower vertebrae. On August

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Speaker 1: of two thousand, Gorm was reinterred at Yelling Church and

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Speaker 1: Denmark's royal family attended the ceremony. As we alluded to earlier,

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Speaker 1: the exact location of clean Tierras burial has been lost,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk more about the significance of that in

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Speaker 1: just a few moments, and that is going to involve

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Speaker 1: a lot of rude stone talk. But before we move

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Speaker 1: on to those stones and the various interpretations around them,

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Speaker 1: let's pause for a word from one of our sponsors.

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Speaker 1: to get ten percent off your first purchase. So there

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Speaker 1: are two rude stones usually mentioned at Yelling, and that's

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Speaker 1: in the central part of the Jutland peninsula. And those

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Speaker 1: two stones have been analyzed and interpreted by historians for years.

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Speaker 1: There is not settled consensus about them. Part of their

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Speaker 1: mystery comes from the fact that the practice of erecting

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Speaker 1: commemorative rude stones appears to have been a fairly brief

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Speaker 1: trend in the big picture, so unlike some other old

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Speaker 1: cultural practices, we don't really have a particularly large sample

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Speaker 1: sets to inform interpretations. Plus, their age means that a

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Speaker 1: lot of them, having been sitting outside this whole time,

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Speaker 1: have had some degradation. So the first smaller stone and

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Speaker 1: reads King Gorm made this monument in memory of Tira,

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Speaker 1: his wife, Denmark's adornment, and the larger stone reads Harold

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Speaker 1: the King. They do the sepulchral monuments after Gorm his

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Speaker 1: father and after Tira his mother, the Harold who won

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Speaker 1: the whole of Denmark and all of Norway and made

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Speaker 1: the Danes Christians. These stones are located adjacent to one

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Speaker 1: another between two nearly identical mounds. Each of the mounds

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Speaker 1: is seventy meters or seventy six yards in diameter and

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Speaker 1: eleven ms or twelve yards high. The north mound covers

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Speaker 1: a burial chamber, but the south mound doesn't. The stone

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Speaker 1: sit just south of a nearby masonry church that's still

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Speaker 1: in use. It's not the original church, though, This is

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Speaker 1: a church that was built around the year eleven hundred

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Speaker 1: to replace a wooden church on the site that had

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Speaker 1: burned down. It was rebuilt several times over, but before

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Speaker 1: it was switched to a masonry church. And the smaller stone,

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Speaker 1: which will call the King Gorm Stone uh. The original

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Speaker 1: position of that stone is not known. Its current placement

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Speaker 1: is where it's been since approximately sixteen thirty and just

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Speaker 1: prior to that we know that it was used as

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Speaker 1: a seat outside the church for some period of time.

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Speaker 1: And this stone features three vertical lines of runes on

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Speaker 1: the front and one vertical line of ruins on the back,

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Speaker 1: and two snakes that are also on the back. A

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Speaker 1: larger Harold stone has three sides, and on one of

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Speaker 1: those there's what's believed to be the first image of

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Speaker 1: Christ in Scandinavia. For a while the image was actually

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Speaker 1: believed to have been a portrait of Harold himself, but

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Speaker 1: early in the nineteenth century it was established that it

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Speaker 1: was indeed Christ. This stone, during a restoration project in

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties, was determined to be in its

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Speaker 1: original position. And there was actually a third stone found

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Speaker 1: at Yelling in nineteen sixty four, but it appears to

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Speaker 1: be unrelated to the Gorm Harold Tira stones. There are

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Speaker 1: a couple of pretty interesting areas of disguy shin around

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Speaker 1: these two stones. Did King Gorm raise a runestone to

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Speaker 1: honor his queen? Or did Harold do it as part

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Speaker 1: of sort of a historical revision. So this is where

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Speaker 1: things get to me really fascinating and where they are

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Speaker 1: very hotly debated. So the stones honoring Tira are notable

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Speaker 1: because it was not really customary for runestones to be

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Speaker 1: raised for women. Denmark has two hundred and seventy seven

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Speaker 1: known Viking era runestones. Remember how we mentioned a little

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Speaker 1: bit ago that they don't really have a huge data

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Speaker 1: set to go on. Two hundred and seventy seven is

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Speaker 1: really not that many. But of that number, only twelve

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Speaker 1: of those stones commemorate women, and two of those referenced Tira,

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Speaker 1: so that's a significant situation. Although there has also been

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Speaker 1: a case made that the reference to Denmark's adornment could

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Speaker 1: actually be referencing Gorm, but that's not a particularly popular interpretation. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The stones to Tira are even more unusual when you

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Speaker 1: consider that these two are part of a group of

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Speaker 1: only three known runestones that were created at the command

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Speaker 1: of kings. Other runestones were raised by other people. It's

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Speaker 1: possible that more than two of those twelve stones dedicated

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Speaker 1: to women are actually in honor of Gorum's wife Tira.

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Speaker 1: At least two other rude stones from the same time

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Speaker 1: period also referenced a woman named Tira, so is it

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Speaker 1: very likely that there was another woman with the same

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Speaker 1: name who was also inspiring the commissioning of multiple runestones

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Speaker 1: who just happened to be in the same area of

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Speaker 1: Denmark at the same time. That seems a little bit coincidental, uh,

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Speaker 1: And it seems perhaps simply too coincidental for it to

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Speaker 1: not all be the same woman. But on the flip side,

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Speaker 1: even men weren't normally honored or commemorated in this way

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Speaker 1: multiple times over either. There's actually only one man that

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Speaker 1: we know of with multiple runestones, So it's just weird

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Speaker 1: in a variety of ways. And one explanation for the

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Speaker 1: multiple but allegedly unrelated mentions of a woman named Tira

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Speaker 1: is that it was a common name in Jutland at

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Speaker 1: the time. Historian Brideep Sawire makes the case though, that

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Speaker 1: the assumption of the names commonplace nature is based on

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Speaker 1: only seven or eight possible instances of its having been used.

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Speaker 1: Four or five of those are on rude stones, So

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Speaker 1: the logic of claiming the rude stones are honoring multiple

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Speaker 1: women of the same name, it's pretty circular. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: using data to support that assertion. That is the direct um,

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Speaker 1: the direct thing that they're trying to prove out. So

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Speaker 1: it gets really, really, uh, a little bit squorely at

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Speaker 1: that point and the smaller of those two yelling stones

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Speaker 1: thought to be erected by Gorm, also has some linguistic

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Speaker 1: characteristics which might give it away as being younger than

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Speaker 1: we are intended to believe. The stone credited to Harold,

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Speaker 1: the larger of the two, has words that run together,

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Speaker 1: whereas the runestones that Gorman or the rude stone that

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Speaker 1: Gorm is supposed to have erected, has dividing marks between

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Speaker 1: the words. And that's a newer linguistic practice, indicating that

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Speaker 1: the Gorm stone may actually have come Second, we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about why that may have been the case in just

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Speaker 1: a moment, but first we're going to pause for a

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Speaker 1: brief word from a sponsor. So why would Harold have

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Speaker 1: possibly erected a stone that seemed to be the work

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Speaker 1: of his father, and that it appeared he may be

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Speaker 1: trying to pass off as that. And again I'm referencing

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Speaker 1: the work of Brigitte Sawyer, but according to her, it

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Speaker 1: may have been away in which people asserted claims of inheritance.

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Speaker 1: So he mentioned early on in the episode that Denmark

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Speaker 1: was new to Unification Lord's Undergoorm likely competed with Gorm

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Speaker 1: for control of the lands that he eventually made his

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Speaker 1: Tira would have been a very appealing marriage partner because

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Speaker 1: she may have held significant power or prominence even before

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Speaker 1: becoming Gorm's queen, most likely as the daughter of someone

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Speaker 1: who had additional land holdings that would then become part

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Speaker 1: of her husband's kingdom. It's entirely possible that she outlived

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Speaker 1: her husband and remarried, and then that would have created

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Speaker 1: some question marks about who should inherit her holdings after

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Speaker 1: her death. The additional runestones that reference a woman named

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Speaker 1: Tira may have been placed by the family she married

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Speaker 1: into after Gorm died. Sawyer suggests that it's possible that

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Speaker 1: Harold not only reconstructed the past by placing a rune

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Speaker 1: stone from his father to Tira, but that the unknown

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Speaker 1: resting place of the queen is due to the fact

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Speaker 1: that she may have been buried by another family in

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Speaker 1: another place entirely after having been remarried. Harold basically had

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Speaker 1: to prove his place as son and heir, and thus

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Speaker 1: constructed the burial mounds at Yelling to establish himself as

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Speaker 1: part of Tira's true or primary family and obscure the

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Speaker 1: existence of another burial spot. Moreover, if the gorm Rune

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Speaker 1: stone was erected by Harold. It also serves as a

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Speaker 1: precedent center that Gorm was king, which literally carves in

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Speaker 1: stone something that up to that point may have still

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Speaker 1: been a matter of some dispute. And remember back to

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Speaker 1: you at the top of the show, we talked about

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Speaker 1: the Morning gift from Gorm to Tira. If she did

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Speaker 1: inherit Denmark upon his death as the culmination of this gift,

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Speaker 1: it would very very much be in Harold's interest not

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Speaker 1: to let another family then inherit literally the entire country

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Speaker 1: after his mother's death. But and I know I keep

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Speaker 1: saying this, it is important to note that these interpretations

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Speaker 1: of the history of Gorm, Harold and Tira and the

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Speaker 1: runestones are just that their interpretations. Although they're definitely based

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Speaker 1: in existing evidence, it's just viewed through different lenses. Historians

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Speaker 1: continue to argue the various possibilities and details of this

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Speaker 1: part of Denmark's history. But in any case, if the

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00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 1: runestones and mounds were part of a carefully orchestrated edit

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Speaker 1: of history on Harold's part, the plan worked because he

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Speaker 1: is recognized as an early king of Denmark, it's entirely

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Speaker 1: possible that new excavations at Yelling will reveal additional information

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Speaker 1: about warm and his family. The Yelling Mounds, Runic Stones

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Speaker 1: and church are all the UNESCO World Heritage Site and

357
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 1: since two thousand seven, excavations have unearthed evidence of massive

358
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Speaker 1: of a massive stone ship at the site, as well

359
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Speaker 1: as a number of buildings that could indicate a fortress

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Speaker 1: that was built by Harold. And I believe that those

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Speaker 1: um excavations went on until late so a lot of

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Speaker 1: those findings are still being analyzed and there could be

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Speaker 1: big changes based on that analysis. We will just have

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Speaker 1: to keep an eye on it. But we mentioned that

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Speaker 1: we would talk about how Harold's name ended up connected

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Speaker 1: to technology, and when a wireless technology being worked on

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Speaker 1: by ericson Nokia, Intel and eventually IBM needed a name,

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00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 1: that project borrowed the name of Bluetooth, and that was

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Speaker 1: because just as Harold had united Denmark in many histories,

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Speaker 1: Bluetooth was intended to unite technologies with this wireless short

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Speaker 1: range link. And while it was intended initially me as

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Speaker 1: a code name for the technology, like a development name,

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Speaker 1: Bluetooth of course stuck and that was more due to

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Speaker 1: legal issues than anything else. The original name for this

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Speaker 1: technology was PAN for Personal Area Networking, and it was

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Speaker 1: too similar to many other trademark names, and the second choice,

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00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 1: radio wire was already trademarked by someone else, so the

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00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: project's code name eventually became its official moniker. And now

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Speaker 1: when your mobile device has Bluetooth activated, you can see

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Speaker 1: a small rune on your screen and you can thank

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00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: Harold Bluetooth for that too. That logo for Bluetooth technology

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00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: is actually a combination of the runes for King Harold's initials,

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Speaker 1: so in a fun way, that history comes alive. You

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00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 1: are carrying a reference to Denmark's Viking history in your

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Speaker 1: pocket with you all the time. If you have a

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Speaker 1: smartphone with Bluetooth, that's pretty cool. Now, that's really now

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00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 1: that you mentioned it, that does look like a rune. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I almost felt foolish for never having had that thought.

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Speaker 1: Once I read about it, I was like, well, of

390
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 1: course that's what it is. Well, I I feel foolish

391
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: because I've been working at how stuff works dot com

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00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: for more than a decade talking about Bluetooth sometimes and

393
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 1: I knew, like I knew at a very basic level

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00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 1: who was named for. But the whole part where the

395
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 1: logo little icon thing is basically a rune. Did not

396
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: know that. Yeah, it's cool stuff. So that is our

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Speaker 1: our discussion of the Yelling Stones, which I really can't

398
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Speaker 1: wait to see sort of what additional analysis comes out.

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Speaker 1: We will link in our show notes to um. Denmark's

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00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 1: National Museum has kind of an ongoing site that updates

401
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Speaker 1: with the archaeological stuff. There hasn't been a lot of uh,

402
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: there haven't been a lot of updates lately. I think,

403
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: like I said, they're still doing analysis. But you can

404
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: see all of the stages of of the digs that

405
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 1: they've done and how they've been very carefully preserving the

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Speaker 1: area because it isn't a place where I mean, there's

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00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: also neighborhoods around it. It's not like just a place

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00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: out in the middle of nowhere. There's the development in

409
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 1: that area. So it's a really pretty fascinating to look

410
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: at all those pictures and see what they're doing and

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00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 1: how they're they're handling it. The stones are actually now

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00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: encased in like these glass I don't want to say cabinetry,

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00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: but that's the only word coming to mind, but they're

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00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: they're outside still, but they're encased to protect them so

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00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: you can see them. Uh, they're basically on display because

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Speaker 1: they're just sitting out there in between the mounds and

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Speaker 1: in front of the church. It's quite cool. I heard

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Speaker 1: you also have some listener mail. You heard correct. This

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Speaker 1: listener mail is from our listener Roberta. And it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a throwback to our Declaration of Sentiments podcast.

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Speaker 1: Uh and the word obey used in marriage vows. So

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Speaker 1: she says, dear Holly and Tracy. First, of course, I

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Speaker 1: love stuff you missed in history class. I've listened to

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Speaker 1: it with a great pleasure for a number of years now,

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Speaker 1: and you always delight and inform, so thank you. I

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Speaker 1: just listened to the Road to the Declaration of Sentiments

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00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: in the process of moving, and have quite a backlog

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00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 1: of pods to catch up on. However, I'm mostly current now.

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Speaker 1: As a personal aside, no one ever has to apologize

430
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: for not being current on the show. I'm not current

431
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: and on everything I watch or listen to by a

432
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: long stress. I'd take a train trip this past weekend

433
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: and I listened to literally four episodes each of Judge,

434
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: John Hodgman and Sawbones that I was behind on on

435
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: the trip. Yeah, I love a road trip for that reason.

436
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: I can let whoever else is in the car sack

437
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: out and I can just play podcast. But anyway, going

438
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,239
Speaker 1: back to riverts, note she said, you guys made some

439
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 1: comments of disbelief about people wanting the word obey in

440
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: their wedding ceremonies, or more specifically not wanting it. I

441
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: wanted to let you know why we specifically chose to

442
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 1: include it. My husband and I were married by a

443
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: justice Justice of the Peace in February and had a

444
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: big ceremony September of that year. It was a Renaissance

445
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: style ceremony in a park with a friend officiating blessing

446
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: our nondenominational wedding. I'm agnostic, my husband is now, but

447
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 1: he was still a believer at the time, and we

448
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: wanted traditional Book of Common Prayer vows for authenticity, but

449
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: also more so because it held some meaning for us.

450
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: We discussed obey and came to the conclusion that it

451
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: was important to us to include it. We each brought

452
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 1: a child and some baggage, and the idea that marriage

453
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: was for life for us was very important. We included

454
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: obey to drive home the point to each other that

455
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 1: we were in this for the long haul. The twist

456
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: is that we said it to each other. It was

457
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: a little tongue in cheek, but we tossed it at

458
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: each other every once in a while to drive home

459
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: the fact that we made promises to each other that

460
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: can't easily be broken. We're progressive people who have chosen

461
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: somewhat traditional gender roles, and we're very aware that life

462
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: is tenuous. Sometimes we need a reminder that the promises

463
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: we've made to each other is the basis for everything

464
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: else in our lives. So it is possible, though surely rare,

465
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: that people on the left of the spectrum might choose

466
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: to include it. I just thought maybe a different perspective

467
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: might be interesting. Thank you for your diligent research and

468
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: beautiful work. I look forward to many more wonderful podcasts

469
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: from you and Tracy. Congrats on your upcoming nuptials. I

470
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: can tell you that after eighteen years and five kids,

471
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: marrying each other was the best, cool, is most awesome

472
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: thing my hubs and I have ever done. I wish

473
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: both of you and Holly and Brian a lifetime of

474
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: the love and piece. We've had much love. Uh and

475
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: she actually goes by Bobby. I realized that the signature.

476
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: I was looking at her email address name when I

477
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: when I first referenced her as ROBERTA. Bobby, Thank you.

478
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 1: This was such a good email and a nice reference.

479
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: We've gotten a variety of feedback on that discussion. Well, uh,

480
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: number one, thank you, Bobby, that's very sweet. And then

481
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: number two, Uh, we got some letters that made me

482
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: think that maybe people there were some people that maybe

483
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: got really angry and started writing and then didn't get

484
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: to the part where I was like, if you want

485
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: to make a choice to include this in your vows,

486
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: make the choice. The point is that you have a

487
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: choice now, Like, it's not a thing that's thrust only

488
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: upon women as a condition of getting married. Like, that's

489
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: the thing that that That's one of two things that

490
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: blows my mind. And the other thing was that the

491
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: story I was relating was from my efficient specifically, who

492
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: is from I think probably the most progressive denomination that

493
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: exists in the United States, And so it was startling

494
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: to me that anyone would have her officiate their wedding

495
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: and then also want a unilateral vow of obedience. That

496
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: seems a little contradictory to me. To have like an

497
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: extremely progressive religious aspect of the wedding then, but then

498
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: also want unilateral obedience. Ye still throws my mind a

499
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah. Similarly, I think I relaid the story

500
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: of my best childhood friend getting married and she had said,

501
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: don't use obey. They had had a last minute switchery

502
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: and they're efficient, and he just subbed it out for

503
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: the word served, which was hilarious to all of us.

504
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: Um But again it was it was a thing that

505
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: she had specifically chosen to exclude, and she, like me,

506
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: is a little bit headstrong, and it was very humorous

507
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: in that regard to watch her react because she's one

508
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: of those people that has always been calm and cool

509
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: and collected and fairly unflappable. And it was just hilarious

510
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: to me because I maybe a jerk friend, but everybody

511
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: had a good chuckle. But anyway, I think our point

512
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: is that what feels right for you is perfect. Like

513
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: if people were offended by our are saying that it

514
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: wasn't for us, I that was not my intent, certainly,

515
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: so I apologize, And regardless of of your feelings on

516
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: the matter, I think it is a good thing for

517
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: people to have a choice in the matter now. And yeah,

518
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: and I will say, like all of the people that

519
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,959
Speaker 1: wrote us, even with very dissenting feelings about what we

520
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 1: had said, what I what really stood out to me

521
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: and was interesting and I really liked, was that all

522
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: of them had talked about it from the point of

523
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 1: view of having discussed it with their spouse, with their

524
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: partner ahead of time, and they were all like they

525
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: got to that place together. It wasn't again, as you said,

526
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: it was not forced on anyone. It was not a

527
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: situation where there was no choice. It was something that

528
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: they agreed upon and felt correct for them, where suddenly

529
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: you're making a vow in front of people and it's

530
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: not a vow you can actually hold in your heart,

531
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: right right, So hopefully this discussion cleared up any confusion. Bobby,

532
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: thank you for your lovely letter because it really was

533
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: a nice way to open that door, and and thank

534
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: you so much for your well wishes. Yes, so sweet.

535
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: I agree. Brian and I will hit our twentieth anniversary

536
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: this year, and I still say, like, the best thing

537
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: that ever happened to me. I didn't ever think I

538
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: wanted to be married, and then I met him and

539
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: everything changed like immediately, and uh, for me, that was

540
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: absolutely the correct thing. Maybe not for everybody, but only

541
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: you know your heart. It's like it's like in h

542
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: and Amy Pohler's book, Good for Her, Not for Me

543
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: is the thing that we should all think of ourselves

544
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: when we're talking about other people's decisions, correct. I mean

545
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: that comes up all the time in all walks of life,

546
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: in all decisions of life, that it's hard for some

547
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: of I mean I have struggled with that before, where

548
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's not the way you should do it,

549
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: but for that person it might be. And who am

550
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: I to say? Uh? If you would like the right

551
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: to and share your thoughts on such things or any

552
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: of the history we've talked about today, you can do

553
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: so at History Podcast at Houston Works dot com. We're

554
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash miss in history.

555
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: We're on Twitter at misst in history or at miss

556
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: in history dot tumbler dot com, or on Pinterest at

557
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: miss in history, or on Instagram and mist in history.

558
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: If you would like to research a little bit about

559
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: what we've talked about today, you can go to our

560
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: parents like Houst Works. Type in the word vikings in

561
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: the search bar, and you will get an article on

562
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: how Vikings worked. You can also visit us at mist

563
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: in history dot com for show notes, for an archive

564
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: of every episode that's ever existed, and for the occasional

565
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: other digital goodie. Uh we hope you do. Visit us

566
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: at house to works dot com and missed in history

567
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

568
00:30:49,400 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com