1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hey Jamie. 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: Here a quick note if you're listening to this episode. 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 2: This is part two of the Dodson Siblings series on 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 2: sixteenth Minute, So if you haven't listened already, please go 5 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: back to episode one to hear the summary of the 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: story and my interview with Kevin Ampon Dodson. Thank you, 7 00:00:33,159 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: thank you, Hello, and welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the 8 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: podcast where we take a closer look at Internet characters 9 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 2: of the day and what that says about us and 10 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: the Internet and us on the Internet. My name is 11 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: Jamie Loftus, but if my mom had her way, it 12 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 2: would have been Randy. 13 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 3: With an I. 14 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: Fortunately she saw porcelain doll on QVC named Jamie, and 15 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: here we are. This is part two of sixteenth Minutes. 16 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: First story about Kelly and Antoine Dotson, who first came 17 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 2: to prominence in the summer of twenty ten after they 18 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: appeared on the news in Huntsville, Alabama. The story focused 19 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 2: on an attempted rape. Kelly Dotson and her family reported 20 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 2: that a man broke into their home in the projects 21 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night while her brother and 22 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: young daughter were home, and the rapist then escaped out 23 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: A second floor window. When Antoine came to Kelly's aid 24 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: quick refresher. Here's the original clip and mark the woman. 25 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 4: The victim tells us that a man broke into her 26 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 4: house and tried to rape her. 27 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 5: Her brother went in and he tried to help around, 28 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 5: but the man got away, leaving behind though evidence of 29 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 5: his visit. Awaine Don said, heard his sister screamed and 30 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 5: ran to help. 31 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 4: Well, obviously we have a rapist in Lincoln Park. 32 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 6: He's climbing in your windows. 33 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 7: He's snatching your people up, trying to rape them. 34 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 5: So y'all needs a had your kids, had your wife 35 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 5: and Hadjehod because they raping everybody out here. 36 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: And if you need more of a brush up than that, 37 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 2: please go back to part one of this episode. This 38 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 2: clip was famously remixed in a YouTube series called Auto 39 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: Tune the News by the Gregory Brothers and became an 40 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: international sensation, with Antoine Dotson making appearances in entertainment for 41 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: the next decade and a half, including I Guess here 42 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 2: You can hear my interview with Kevin in part one, 43 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: where he reflects on his life prior to the news 44 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: clip and what it looked like afterward and into today. 45 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: But already we're talking a lot about Antoine, and that's 46 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: what I want to discuss in part two of this series. 47 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: The bead Intruder story was very quickly pivoted to Antoine Dotson, 48 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: slowly edging Kelly Dotson out of the story altogether. In 49 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: this episode, I'd like to examine that more closely. And 50 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: just a note, in keeping with my interview with Kevin 51 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 2: Antoine Dotson where he refers to Antoine as an alter ego, 52 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 2: I'll be referring to him as Kevin for Part two. 53 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: I can't, in good faith but grudge Kevin for wanting 54 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 2: to leverage his online fame, even if, as he admits, 55 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: it wasn't always completely honest, because it's not his fault 56 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: that he was framed in the way he was, or 57 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: that he was essentially chosen as the protagonist by the 58 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: media and by the Internet. And what's more, he was 59 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 2: the sibling that seemed more interested in capitalizing on this notoriety. 60 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: While there's plenty of examples of the press being interested 61 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: in Kelly, the feeling never appeared to be very mutual. 62 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: I wasn't able to get in touch with Kelly Dotson, 63 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: But if she ever chooses to speak on the internet 64 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: cyclone that surrounded an assault on her in the future. 65 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: That's her call. If she doesn't want to revisit that time. 66 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: It makes total sense and people should respect that. But 67 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: the fact remains from the very beginning, it was Kelly 68 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: who was consistently getting lost in a story that was 69 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 2: about her, a black woman who had reported a violent 70 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: rape attempt while her daughter and brother were in the house. 71 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: I mean, she says so herself in this clip from 72 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: Judge Jerry Springer in twenty twenty one. And keep in mind, 73 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: Kevin confirmed that most of this was put on in 74 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: terms of there being any actual conflict between them, But 75 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 2: Kelly is very adamant about her part in the story 76 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: being erased, and to me it sounds very sincere. 77 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 4: I want him to like put on my shoe for once. 78 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying, Like you know what I've 79 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 4: been through these last eleven years since this attack. All 80 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 4: is business antwinas Antwina, even when I'm will we together, 81 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 4: we go out and pub but we can't even sit 82 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 4: down and enjoy our mires or not because why people 83 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 4: want to take picture's way Antoine, Antoine, It's all about 84 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 4: Antoine what about me. I'm the victim. Oh, yes, yes, 85 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 4: it is like that. I'm the victim because it's all 86 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 4: it's always about anton House, Antoine doing. He's fine, he's living, 87 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 4: He's not the victim. 88 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: He didn't get it hurt. 89 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: I don't think we should ignore it. Kelly's treatment from 90 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 2: moment one clocks is pretty straightforward massage noir and ingrained 91 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: prejudice and dismissal of black women. When this clip went 92 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 2: viral almost fifteen years ago, it was seamlessly accepted, including 93 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: by high school me, that it was okay to mock 94 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: a black woman quite literally going public with a rape 95 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: allegation and turning it into this joke. Very few people 96 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: asked if Kelly Dodson was okay at this time. I mean, 97 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: I wasn't even completely sure that the bed Intruder boxing 98 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: match was fake until I confirmed it with Kevin. And 99 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: so it's this combination of race, class, and gender discrimination 100 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 2: that leads to Kelly getting sidelined. And when it comes 101 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: to what Kevin refers to as the character of Antoine Dodson, 102 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: there's a lot of telling markers on how media from 103 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: a white lens use and commodifies blackness and in Antoine's case, 104 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,239 Speaker 2: black queerness as well, because even as years past after 105 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 2: this story, Antoine was interrogated about his sexuality consistently, as 106 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: if it had to do with anything. There's way more 107 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: to dig into here. Unfortunately, someone way smarter than me 108 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: has already written brilliantly on this very topic, so let's 109 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 2: get him in here. Professor Gabriel Peoples is an assistant 110 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 2: professor in the Gender Studies Department at Indiana University Bloomington 111 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 2: and is the author of The Forgotten Kelly Dodson, Viral 112 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: Performance and the Interplay of Excess and Erasure, and he's 113 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: currently in the process of completing his book Go in 114 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: Viral Uncontrollable Black Performance. I really loved his piece and 115 00:06:52,000 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: I was lucky to get a chance to talk with him. 116 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: Welcome back to sixteenth minute. I grew up without a 117 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 2: bedroom door and it shows in my personality. 118 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 8: Here's our talk. 119 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 5: I'm Gabriel Allen Peebles. I am a assistant professor of 120 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 5: Gender Studies at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. Also a DJ, 121 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 5: and I've been djaying longer than I have been teaching. 122 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: I did not know you're a DJ, and as a 123 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: comedian turned attempted thinker. I appreciate that narrative to you. 124 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: So I wanted to start by asking you what was 125 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: your memory of the Dodson's becoming viral stars at the 126 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: time in twenty ten. 127 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 5: You know, the memory is different than the history of 128 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 5: the event, right, Yeah. I want to say that I 129 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 5: was living in Atlanta, Georgia at the time, and no, 130 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 5: actually I was there. 131 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 6: That's all that. 132 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 5: I was in Atlanta and this thing just started moving online. 133 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 5: Like I can't really explain what was going on. I 134 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 5: received it from a friend, like just the link, and 135 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 5: I looked, and I want to say, this was when 136 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 5: it was on YouTube, and it was just. 137 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 6: The newscast, and I was curious. 138 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 5: I was just like, and I think it was a summer, 139 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 5: you know, I'm thinking it must have. 140 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 6: Been July or something like that. 141 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 5: And I'm looking and I'm like, I didn't know if 142 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 5: this was a parody or if this was like a 143 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 5: real thing. And toward the end, I felt like, I 144 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 5: think this is a real thing. But I had to 145 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 5: watch it again because and I think that there was 146 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 5: something about that. If we can, you know, return to 147 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 5: the confusion I had around if this was real or not. 148 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, but I just remember it being hot. 149 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 5: And I'm trying to maintain my ac control the bills, 150 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 5: and I get this thing and I'm like, I'm like, 151 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 5: what is this. I look at it and I'm like, okay, 152 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 5: I'm going to remember this. Like I think I just 153 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 5: set it aside. But I was just like I was disturbed, 154 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 5: you know, because I at first I couldn't tell what 155 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 5: was real. And then when I kind of figured out 156 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 5: what was real, I started to look more into it. 157 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 5: So it was like the research started. I mean, I 158 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 5: wasn't even interested in research proper like that. I just 159 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 5: had to know, right. 160 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: So this is like a ten years in the making piece. 161 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 2: I really appreciated your piece. You really carefully traced how 162 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: this story even got on YouTube in the first place, 163 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 2: because this was before any news stations were really uploading 164 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: their own broadcasts, Like you know, someone ripped it, posted 165 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: it to Reddit and then to YouTube. In the news clip, 166 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: you sort of break down a lot of what is 167 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: being done to already begin this marginalization process. Can you 168 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: talk me through that a little bit? 169 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, for me, it was the visual techniques 170 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 5: that they were using, which I thought were dangerous particularly 171 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 5: because the entire encounter was based upon the sexual assault 172 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 5: of Kelly Dotson, and one of the things that happens 173 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 5: in the news broadcast is that they zoom in to 174 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 5: the location of the assault in a way that I 175 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 5: guess is common on the news, but at the same 176 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 5: time rendered or occurred to me as being insensitive, insensitive 177 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 5: as to perhaps the insecurities that allowed this to happen 178 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 5: in the first place, and also not being aware of 179 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 5: how they are exposing this very location. So if somebody 180 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 5: wanted to maybe it was somebody different, if they wanted 181 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 5: to try something out, they knew exactly where to go 182 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 5: that you know, had the thin veil of security that 183 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 5: might allow them to get into somebody's home and violate, right. 184 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 5: And I felt like, you know, everything that I've seen, 185 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 5: it was like I've seen this before, or I understood 186 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 5: this about the people being represented already. 187 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 6: Right. 188 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 5: So these notions around kind of like public and private, 189 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 5: around even just property in and of itself, right, I 190 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 5: think has a legacy, particularly when we're thinking about black 191 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 5: people in the United States, who at one point were 192 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 5: being ensured as property. And so these kind of affordances 193 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 5: of public life private life already you know, there's a 194 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 5: there's a legacy that dictates it's not something that is 195 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 5: afforded to black people in the United States. And it 196 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 5: felt like a moment whereby it was a moment that 197 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 5: was proving the connections right to those kinds of moments. 198 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 6: And even still, right after all of that, if you 199 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 6: were to. 200 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 5: Add up the amount of time that Kelly Dotson spoke 201 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 5: and this is nothing against the family, this is all 202 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 5: about editing, this is all about while forty eight news. 203 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 5: If you added up the amount of time that Kelly 204 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 5: Dotson spoke as the person that experienced the violation, the violence, 205 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 5: and the amount of time that Antoine Dotson spoke, right, 206 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 5: it kind of begins this domino effect that I get 207 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 5: into further in the book, but that ultimately continues this 208 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 5: kind of erasure of Kelly Dotson, right, Yeah, and I 209 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 5: you know, but at the same time, right, as a 210 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 5: black performance theorist, I'm also very interested in agency, as 211 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 5: limited as it may be, and the possibilities that Kelly 212 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 5: Dotson is also very aware of what's going on, right 213 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 5: and perhaps pushing back against being kind of like centralized, 214 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 5: being made spectacular, particularly in her position as a black 215 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 5: woman in the United States. 216 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 2: Could you sort of walk me through how you define 217 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 2: viral performance. 218 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 5: I would like to say that that is not my term. 219 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 5: So viral performance is, I would say, belongs to Miriam 220 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 5: Felton Danski, who is really locating it within intentional performances 221 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 5: that artists take that then spread uncontrollably, right, either in 222 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 5: terms of people hearing about a computer virus that got out, 223 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 5: that got out of control because artists invited people to 224 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 5: interact with this computer and then like spread a rumor. 225 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 5: You know, it could be like even on that level, right, 226 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 5: but it's about intentionality and then kind of like to 227 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 5: spread that results. And my thing was to as I'm 228 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 5: writing this, I'm trying to think about, okay, like what 229 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 5: continues in that vein right when I'm looking at this moment, 230 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 5: but also what's very different And for me that came 231 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 5: back to in a large way blackness, right, And so 232 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 5: we kind of tabled something earlier in the interview, which 233 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 5: is when I first see this newscast, I'm thinking, I 234 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 5: don't know, it just feels too familiar. And I think 235 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 5: that this was because as an African American in the 236 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 5: United States, myself having been inundated with news media. I 237 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 5: was familiar with these types of depictions of black people 238 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 5: in the news, almost to the extent that I thought 239 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 5: it was a parody. You know, you have to understand that, 240 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 5: like I'm encountering it like that. So then when I'm 241 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 5: thinking about black virality, I'm thinking about how that knowledge 242 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 5: right of this representation already existed for me. Right, This 243 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 5: sets it apart to me from the ways that I 244 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 5: might think about it as merely a viral performance, because 245 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 5: it's always it's almost like they're already viral before you 246 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 5: encounter them, right, we already for some reason, I already 247 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 5: know something about this, and then the thing happens. Then 248 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 5: it spreads as a result of this particular newscast, and 249 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 5: it goes viral in the ways that you and I 250 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 5: have come to understand, right, particularly around viral videos. So 251 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 5: I think that for me, black virality really distinguishes. Going 252 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 5: viral is an ongoing phenomenon, particularly when we're talking about 253 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 5: representations of black people or literal black people, And so 254 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 5: it's about it's the way that a rapid circulation of 255 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 5: black performance happens that spreads uncontrollably afterwards, right, And then 256 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 5: it becomes commonplace as a result of that spread. So 257 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 5: in some ways, it's very similar to viral performance. Right, 258 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 5: there's a rapid ubiquity that I think both of them share. 259 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 5: But for me, viral performance doesn't exactly capture the ways 260 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 5: that Black people and representations of Black people are already 261 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 5: marked before they ever go viral. That then marks them further. Also, 262 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 5: Black virality for me is capturing the black ways that 263 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 5: performances go viral, even this particular moment. Right, Eventually it 264 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 5: gets on to World Star hip Hop. It's doing some 265 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 5: different things on World Star hip Hop than it does 266 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 5: on YouTube, and so you know, it's thinking about that. 267 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 5: It's thinking about the ways that death and birth are simultaneous, 268 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 5: and Black cultures around the world, it's an African diasporic ethos. 269 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 5: There is no birth without death. 270 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 6: Right. 271 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 5: It's almost like the newscast died at the same time 272 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 5: the remix was birthed, you know what I mean, And 273 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 5: then the remix died, and then it keeps going. This 274 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 5: particular performance, it keeps going right again, right, black ways 275 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 5: that we're experiencing rapid ubiquity when it comes to performances, right, 276 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 5: And so that's kind of how I'm arriving to that right, 277 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 5: I'm like looking at this viral performance and I'm like, Okay, 278 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 5: there's some things happening here, and how do I account 279 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 5: for the differences. 280 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 2: We'll be right back with more of my talk with 281 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 2: Professor Peoples. Welcome back to sixteenth minute. One time my 282 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: coworker at a haunted hay ride almost got struck by lightning. 283 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 3: She was fine. 284 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 2: Dangerous job though, and we are talking about the phenomenon 285 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 2: that was the Dodson siblings saga with Professor Gabriel Peoples. 286 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: Here's the rest of our talk. You unpack all of 287 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 2: the ways in which already moment one, when this airs 288 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 2: on LAT forty eight, Kelly Dotson is already being edged 289 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 2: out of the story because, like you saying, I mean, 290 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: Antoine Dotson has no way of knowing how this is 291 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: going to be edited. Who's I mean? The editor could 292 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 2: have not you know, could have included one line from him. 293 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 2: They could have included nothing and just totally centered Kelly, Like, 294 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,479 Speaker 2: there's so many different ways could have gone for you. 295 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 2: Why why does the NewsLens switch to Antoine and why 296 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: does that sort of, at least in my perspective, he 297 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 2: continued doubling down and down and down, because by the 298 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 2: time you get to the remix, Kelly is barely there, 299 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: like she it's just one sentence from her. 300 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 5: Right, And even by the time we get to that 301 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 5: Reddit meme, you don't even see her. Right, there's a 302 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 5: I mean a lot of this is about legacy, right, 303 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 5: which again, like is another way that I'm or another 304 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 5: thing that I use. 305 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 6: Right. 306 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 5: So ghetto witness right is about how particular kinds of 307 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 5: people are found to give testimony to a trauma that 308 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 5: they've witnessed or experienced, right, And the news seeks folks 309 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 5: out right, And I think that there's a way that 310 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 5: me seeing that before, right, it helps me to it 311 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 5: helps me to think about legacy in this moment. 312 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 6: Right. 313 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 5: So you have how black people, particularly how black gay 314 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 5: men have been used as comic relief. So that's happening, 315 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 5: So let's hold that in our minds. 316 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 6: And then at the same. 317 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 5: Time, you have this legacy of black women being inviolable subjects, right, 318 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 5: So folks who cannot be violated, right, which is also 319 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 5: tethered to these toxic ideas about their own sexuality and 320 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 5: the ways that they are imagined to be particularly licentious, 321 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 5: therefore a rape can't happen, and it's president in fiction 322 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 5: and nonfiction right in terms of the ways that black 323 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 5: women have been historically right noted or or recorded in 324 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 5: particular kinds of instances, the ways that they've been figuratively 325 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 5: imagined that are also linked to those real historical instances 326 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 5: of being in violable subject This is also tethered right 327 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 5: to the ways that black men are seen as particularly endowed. 328 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 5: Angela Davis really helps us to point to these connections, 329 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 5: and there's so you have all of these kind of 330 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 5: legacies happening, right. This is the knowledge, if you will, 331 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 5: that's being brought to this moment before it even goes viral. 332 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: When it truly clicked for me was when you learn 333 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: that this first kind of took off on our slash funny, 334 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 2: where you know that so clearly demonstrates how seriously a 335 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 2: good portion of the internet audience at this time was 336 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: taking Kelly and taking the allegation was it went from 337 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 2: zero to funny because of it, And a lot of 338 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 2: that does seem to have to do with how the 339 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 2: broadcast was edited. 340 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, within this, you know what it's said to be 341 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 5: a community of communities, right, one of these communities is 342 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 5: the subreddit funny, and whoever saw this wild forty eight 343 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 5: newscast somehow digitized it and put it online in this subreddit, 344 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 5: right because they thought it was funny. I just had 345 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 5: all these moments of pause where I was like, Okay, 346 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 5: slow down, let's let's slow down and look at what 347 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 5: is happening. There's so much, right, So even even kind 348 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 5: of like in terms of what was unfolding that day, 349 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 5: I came to understand, I think, just minimally, right, Antoine 350 00:22:54,640 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 5: Dotson's sister Kelly Dotson being violated in the same home 351 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 5: that they were both in. It was enough for Antoine 352 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 5: to want to respond the way that he responded. But 353 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 5: then on top of that, there were things happening around 354 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 5: the scene of the interview that even further gave him 355 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 5: this kind of like righteous indignation that he has. And 356 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 5: it comes back to something that you mentioned, right, It's 357 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 5: just like people not being believed, right, particularly black women 358 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 5: not being believed when they experienced sexual violence. 359 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 6: Right. 360 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 5: So there was another woman, I'm assuming she lived in 361 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 5: the community, who was basically saying, this never. 362 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 6: Happened in our community. 363 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 5: Okay, does that negate the reality that I experienced. Right, 364 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 5: That's what I'm thinking. I'm imagining, right, these might. 365 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 6: Be some thoughts going on. 366 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, so and then Moore, even the people in the complex, 367 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 5: in the housing complex, they didn't take it seriously either, right, 368 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 5: So they brought this to the attention of I mean, 369 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 5: it wasn't like a front desk, but it was like 370 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 5: the main adamin. I mean, they kind of they kind 371 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 5: of laughed in their faces. So by the time while 372 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 5: forty eight News, you know, is like okay, let's interview you, 373 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 5: they had spoken to the housing administration, they already filed 374 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 5: a police report. At some point this other lady pops up, Oh, 375 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 5: this is never this never happened in our community. I mean, 376 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 5: you didn't really need a lot more to make that 377 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,959 Speaker 5: more of a you know, make it more of a 378 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 5: powder keg. And so anyway, I'm thinking about the viral 379 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 5: afterlife as connected to black virality, right, because again, like 380 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 5: I said, there's this kind of like cosmographic understanding of 381 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 5: life and various religious and spiritual practic throughout the world 382 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 5: where it's kind of like you die in the terrestrial 383 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 5: and your birth and the spiritual at the same exact time, right, 384 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 5: And I'm taking I'm taking this knowledge and I'm thinking about, like, 385 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 5: how is this playing out in this realm of of virality? 386 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 6: Right? 387 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 5: And so it's kind of like I pointed to that 388 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 5: fire fraud moment, because this is a point where, like 389 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 5: with the Viral Afterlife, you're talking about the ways that 390 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 5: something goes viral, perhaps reaches a peak or a climax, 391 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 5: and then it's like we almost don't hear about it again, 392 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 5: but then we do, and it might be in a 393 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 5: different form, right, And sometimes what we hear about after 394 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 5: the climax goes beyond the climax, and sometimes it doesn't. 395 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 5: And so Viral Afterlife is taking account of that. You 396 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 5: can say, I'm giving folks language to think about, you know, 397 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 5: how can we think about like this thing that's been 398 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 5: rapidly circulated that a lot of people knew about at 399 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 5: a particular moment in time, and then that thing kind 400 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 5: of like comes back up years later. And when that 401 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 5: thing is black, it just adds, it adds to the 402 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 5: layers we have to dissect to understand what is really 403 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 5: what is really happening in front of us, Right. So, 404 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 5: and I explore this a bit more at length in 405 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 5: the in the book, even in particular relationship to this 406 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 5: moment that we're talking about on the newscast, right, So, 407 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 5: the Gregory Brothers they continued in the same vein of 408 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 5: kind of like finding these folks who are giving testimony 409 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 5: in their own sincere kind of way auto tuning them, 410 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 5: and then you know, just putting it out broadcasting themselves. 411 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 6: Right as YouTube encourages you to do. 412 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 5: And so I was shocked to see that they were 413 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 5: on the credits for The Unbreakable Kimmy Smith. I know, yeah, 414 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 5: you know if this is not the exact same thing, right, 415 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 5: but in a completely fictional sense, not to mention the 416 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 5: girl that's found underground is in this cult in Indiana, right, oh, Indiana. 417 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 2: It all connects. 418 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 5: But you know it's like when she emerges, a black 419 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 5: man sees her, right, and then the news just goes 420 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 5: to find this black man and then his vocals turned 421 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 5: from I think they're immediately auto tuned. 422 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not mistaken, especially because I didn't realize until 423 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: I was researching this episode that that theme song was 424 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 2: literally made by the Gregory Brothers. So it couldn't be 425 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 2: clearer what's happening there. 426 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 5: And you're pointing to another thing, right, which is the 427 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 5: Black ways of going viral. Right, But there's a certain 428 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 5: thing around vernacular. Not to necessarily tie it tie vernacular 429 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 5: in a very particular way to black people, because as 430 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 5: we know, that's of fiction anyway, right, Like, not only 431 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 5: can people style switch when they speak, but oftentimes this 432 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 5: stuff is cultural in terms of like how people sound. 433 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 6: Right. 434 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 5: But if he starts that thing off by saying what 435 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 5: had happened was there's a certain kind of like, I 436 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 5: mean way that we have to understand that as being 437 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 5: a black for a black vernacular phenomenon. I mean, there 438 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 5: is such a thing as ebonics, right, they teach I 439 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 5: don't know if they still teach it. But when I 440 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 5: went to the University of Michigan as an undergrad, they 441 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 5: were teaching in a bonics class and one of my 442 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 5: friends took it, and she basically told me that everybody 443 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 5: that didn't grow up around black cultures were failing that 444 00:28:54,520 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 5: class horribly, right. They couldn't understand the formula, the formulas 445 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 5: and the mathematics, the syntax. These Black ways of going 446 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 5: viral actually become less of a theory and more of 447 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 5: a reality when you start to get into the ways 448 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 5: people are commenting on these viral performances, which you will 449 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 5: often run into on comment walls. Something else I get 450 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 5: into in the book the article, though, I'm really trying 451 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 5: to just focus on before any of this travels, right, 452 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 5: because black virality is also about how black performance travels. 453 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 6: What all is happening? You know? 454 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 5: So yeah, how can we before we get there? If 455 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 5: we slow this moment down what all is happening? And 456 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 5: then once we do that, we kind of understand how 457 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 5: the rest of it can materialize. But you don't know 458 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 5: unless you slow down this moment in the beginning, right, right, 459 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 5: So slowing it down, it was like I've found some 460 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 5: stuff on Facebook right where Antoine Dotson was just like, 461 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 5: do y'all think this is a joke? And that gave 462 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 5: me pause, and it also it reinforced the feeling that 463 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 5: I was getting, like when then running across the auto 464 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 5: tuned video, I was just like, something felt very about 465 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 5: it actually to me. Yeah, and so it was reaffirming 466 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 5: to also notice that Antoine Dotson found something in that too. 467 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 6: Right. But Antoine is a businessman. 468 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, So I mean he's literally in community college taking 469 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 5: a mazuring in business. I want to say so It's 470 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 5: like I think he was wrestling with multiple things. It 471 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 5: was like recognizing the kind of moment that this could be, 472 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 5: which he wouldn't be the first. Even in that reference 473 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 5: that I gave you about leper count and Mobile, I 474 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 5: think it was Mobile, Alabama, where there's these newscasters that 475 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 5: go into this neighborhood, interviewing so many people in the neighborhood, 476 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 5: and this guy is like, this is the agency, right 477 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 5: that I'm that I'm wrestling with. Particularly when we're thinking 478 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 5: about black virality, It's like black people they know the game, right, Like, 479 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 5: you know, if they're living in subsidized housing at this 480 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 5: moment in their life, there might be a point of recognizing, hey, 481 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 5: this might be a moment where we can leverage it 482 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 5: to get out of here, right right, right, too much 483 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 5: chagrin of you know a lot of other folks that 484 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 5: get mentioned, and you know, as this thing unfolds, right, 485 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 5: the random black folks like me who are encountering this, 486 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 5: and they're like, for whatever reason, they're feeling embarrassed, right, 487 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 5: And so I'm inquiring about that, why are you? Like, 488 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 5: why are you feeling embarrassed? Like I'm thinking, I'm trying 489 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 5: to think about this, right, But it's like, when you've 490 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 5: seen this particular scenario over and over and over again, 491 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 5: there's a point where you tire of it. 492 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 6: There's a point where. 493 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 5: You recognize what it is that is attempting to be 494 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 5: done and capitalized on. It's also appropriatet of right, because 495 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 5: it's kind of like this recognition of the currency of blackness, 496 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 5: but almost at the expense of the ways that we 497 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 5: the rich ways that we can understand black people. And 498 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 5: so it's hard to wrestle with because on an individual level, 499 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 5: it's like, hey, I can use this to get out 500 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 5: of here. On a collective level, there's also that recognition that, 501 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 5: like they're taking this to be a joke, aren't they right? 502 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 5: You know, But there's always kind of like that cleverness, 503 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 5: right of like okay, well, how can I use this 504 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 5: to my advantage? This is this is the black objecthood 505 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 5: of this moment. 506 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 6: Right. 507 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 5: The ways that people go viral are going to constantly increase, Right, 508 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 5: the ways that black virality is experienced is going to 509 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 5: constantly increase or change. Right, the mechanisms there's always a 510 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 5: new mechanism being created to allow this. Yet until we 511 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 5: kind of grapple with the very things that are you 512 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 5: could say, variables if you will, in that virality in 513 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 5: our regular, everyday irl. Right, it's not going to really shift. 514 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 5: Some might say that it's gotten worse. 515 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: Is there anything I didn't ask or touch on about 516 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: Kelly Dodson and this story in particular that you would 517 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 2: like to touch on? 518 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 5: I mean, for me, I find it intriguing that, just 519 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 5: as far as everything you've come across as well, to 520 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 5: a large extent, Kelly Dotson tries to remain out of 521 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 5: the spotlight, just because that's what I was picking up 522 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 5: on myself, right, and I was, you know, I just 523 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 5: wanted to emphasize that this too is feminism, is black feminism, right, 524 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 5: the recognition of the of the camera, if you will, 525 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 5: but also the recognition of everything that's happening outside of it, 526 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 5: and the strength of that right and perhaps remaining outside 527 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 5: of the camera in order to avoid some of the 528 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 5: pitfalls of being made spectacular, right, of which there's so 529 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 5: many examples of. I think there was a moment right 530 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 5: where it was important to voice what happened. It was 531 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 5: confronting something, right, it was I mean, the ways that 532 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 5: sexual violence oftentimes is silenced and subjugated in order for 533 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 5: the collective, in terms of a particular Black community, a 534 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 5: particular Black family, in order for that collective to not 535 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 5: kind of fall into these already pre existing stereotypes whereby 536 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 5: people are already thinking they're hyper sexual in their criminal right. 537 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 5: And this is a moment where that family stood up 538 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 5: to that very tension. And I think that's important, you know, 539 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 5: because a lot of things happen as a. 540 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 6: Result, and people saw that. 541 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 5: Okay, this is a phenomenon in our community right now. 542 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 5: It tethered previous violences that were happening in Huntsville, Alabama, 543 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 5: in that particular subsidized housing complex, and it kind of 544 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 5: like gestured toward the other folks that exist out there 545 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 5: who are actually being like experiencing rape right or sexual 546 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 5: assault and can't or won't for various reasons, express that 547 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 5: violence that they encounter. And it's kind of like an 548 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 5: example of like what happens when you do right. 549 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 6: You might be able to. 550 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 5: Get extricate yourself from that moment of violence or from 551 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 5: that scene of violence, that environment that enabled the violence. 552 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 5: You might also be able to, in staying out of 553 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 5: the spotlight, suggest something about your awareness of what the 554 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 5: spotlight can do to black bodies right what it has done. 555 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 6: My book is called Going. 556 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 5: Viral Uncontrollable Black Performance, and it's going to be published 557 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 5: by the University of Illinois Press in their New Black 558 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 5: Studies series, and it essentially covers black people or representations 559 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 5: of black people that have gone viral between the eighteenth 560 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 5: century to the present, and it thinks about what they 561 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 5: do when reaching those peak levels of visibility with that visibility, right, 562 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 5: and so how they can actually leverage it for liberation 563 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 5: in different kinds of ways, on individual levels and on 564 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 5: collective levels. And I go from the conceptual photography and 565 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 5: images and and even jewelry making of Hank Willis Thomas, 566 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 5: the presence in the performance of Radio Raheem and do 567 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 5: the right thing. 568 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,479 Speaker 6: Everything we just talked about, but a lot more. 569 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 5: In reference to the newscast in twenty ten that went viral, 570 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 5: the remix video attested to that, and then kind of 571 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 5: like the viral afterlife of all of that moment. 572 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 6: I don't know. 573 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 2: Putting this episode together has been really fun and really challenging, 574 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 2: and I'm just so glad to have your voice in it. 575 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Professor Peoples for speaking with me, 576 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 2: and I cannot wait for when his book go in 577 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 2: viral Uncontrollable Black Performance releases in spring twenty twenty five. 578 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: I wanted to start with the Dodson story because it 579 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 2: marked a moment that's pretty rare on the Internet these days, 580 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 2: a genuine monocultural moment. It took these normal people and 581 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 2: thrust them into the spotlight. That happens is always telling 582 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 2: about the time and place you're in, and not just 583 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 2: how the public reacts, but how the subjects themselves react, 584 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 2: because this level of sudden notoriety is just not something 585 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 2: humans were made to be able to process. And even 586 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 2: though the stories can feel a little dated, they bring 587 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 2: out what Professor Peoples was talking about, these age old 588 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: prejudices and dismissals. Kelly's erasure from the story is not 589 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 2: something unique through the twenty first century. It's built on 590 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 2: centuries of dismissal of black women. Antoine's elevation is not 591 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 2: something unique to the twenty first century. The way black 592 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 2: queermen have been treated by the public has always been pointed, 593 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 2: and seeing him have the reins on his own narrative 594 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 2: after all these years makes a special kind of person, 595 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 2: and so long may the Dodson siblings reign, even if 596 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 2: that means different things for each of them. Dodson's your 597 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 2: sixteenth minute ends. 598 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 1: Now Le's done. Okay. 599 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 3: So at the end of every single episode of this show, 600 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,919 Speaker 3: I just want to take a moment for whatever I want, 601 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 3: whatever feels good, whatever feels right. And so for our 602 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 3: inaugural moment of whatever I want, here are my parents 603 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 3: trying to explain what they think this show is about. 604 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 3: Enjoy see you next week. 605 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: What if I asked you to describe what you think 606 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: the show is about? Can you do that? 607 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 8: I believe the sixteenth minute refers to the widely known 608 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:40,439 Speaker 8: concept of fifteen minutes of fame. But when that light 609 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 8: begins to douse, what are they doing thereafter? 610 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: Great? Great answer? Are you prepared to give an answer? Okay? 611 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: So in your mind, what is sixteenth minute the show about? 612 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 6: Again? 613 00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 7: That whole fifteen minutes? Everyone's famous fifteen minutes, or so 614 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,839 Speaker 7: said Andy war We think, but sometimes it lasts more. 615 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,760 Speaker 7: Maybe it goes into a sixteenth minute or seventeenth Maybe 616 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:09,399 Speaker 7: that's the show. 617 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 2: Well, seventeenth would be kind of someone else's business, But 618 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,880 Speaker 2: I'm trying to sixteenth feels that's the one I'm in 619 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 2: charge of. 620 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: All Right, great answers, Everybody, great answers. Okay, see you 621 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: next week. 622 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 2: Sixteenth Minute is a production of fool Zone Media and iHeartRadio. 623 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,280 Speaker 2: It is written, posted, and produced by. 624 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 3: Me Jamie Loftus. 625 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Sophie Lichtterman and Robert Evans. The 626 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 2: amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. 627 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Sad thirteen and Pet. Shout 628 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 2: outs to our dog producer Anderson, my Kat's Flee and 629 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 2: Casper and my pet rock Bird who will outlive us 630 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 2: all Bye.