WEBVTT - #011 Jason Flom with Sedrick Courtney 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:08.920 With the police banging on the door, open up. 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:12.319 The choice to be in that lineup was the last 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:13.720 choice I made as a free man. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:16.880 A year later, I ended up writing the system. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:20.239 I'm going to be one of those people who everyone 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:21.880 in the world is going to think as a monster 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.000 or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life, 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:25.319 and I'm just going to have to come to peace 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.360 with that. Somebody was able to look at my picture 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.160 in the database and say that I was somewhere where 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:33.120 I definitely wasn't. 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.479 I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:38.720 might have to play in my hanging. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:40.639 They had been told that. 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:43.640 Two prison officers would have to participate in my execution. 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.240 Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man, 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:49.520 all help broke loose. 0:00:49.600 --> 0:01:13.520 But this is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:17.320 with Jason Flamm. Today we have a very special Valentine's 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:22.240 Day edition featuring two extraordinary people, Cedric Courtney and his 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:23.360 beautiful wife, Tina. 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.759 Cedric Tina, Welcome to the show. Thank you, Thank you so. 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:31.880 Cedric and Tina have a very unusual and beautiful love story, 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.640 which is that they met in prison, and as you're 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.840 probably now spitting out your coffee listening to this, I 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.240 can tell you that Cedric was wrongfully convicted of armed 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:45.480 robbery and he was incarcerated in Oklahoma and met Tina 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.559 when she was working in the prison as a guard. 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:52.040 Cedric Courtney was exonerated after he had already served his 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.200 time in prison fifteen years. He sued Tulsa Police o 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:57.880 for testimony given by a lab technician that helped to 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.680 convict him a DNA test. The evidence much later showed 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:03.480 it was not connected to Courtney. 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.680 Today, DNA is the gold standard for prosecutors and defense attorneys. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.200 The lack of it helped Courtney's attorneys get his conviction 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.240 set aside. It's a great thing to see now they 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.440 have a family. But I want to go back to 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.519 sort of the beginning, Cedric, where were you from? 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:19.480 Originally? 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.480 I'm really from Tosa, Oklahoma, and Tina. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:22.000 How about you? 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.120 We'ren and raised in the same place, dunk And, Oklahoma. 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.680 So you start off there and you grew up. Did 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:29.200 you have a happy childhood? 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:29.720 Cedric? 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:31.400 For most part? Yes, and you. 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:32.920 Too, yes? Nice? 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.200 So everything was going pretty good, I guess, I mean, 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:39.880 you know, life's not easy, and I know your life 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:44.240 wasn't easy, Cedric, But then things took a really terrible 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:48.079 turn back in nineteen ninety five, and to paint a picture, 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.200 on April sixth, nineteen ninety five, what happened was two 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:53.840 men with pistols and wearing ski masks kicked in the 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.239 door of an apartment of a woman named Shmida Greer 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.480 and they forced heart of the floor, pistol whipped her 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.320 and duct taped her eyes and mouth, and during the robbery, 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.320 which lasted less than ten minutes, they kicked her in 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:06.280 the head and she played dead and they left with 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.520 three hundred and ninety seven dollars in cash, four tires, 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:10.639 and four wheel rims. 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:11.000 Right. 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:15.720 She then went on to mistakenly identify you. And we 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.240 see mistaken I with its identification all the time. It's 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.760 the number one leading cause of wrongful convictions. But in 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.959 this case it was unusual because you actually knew her 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.880 and she thought it was you for reasons that still 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.639 nobody understands. Right, So how did this happen? I mean 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:31.840 you had an alibi? 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:32.480 Right? 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.680 Well, they also said in the trial that the person 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.040 who does the lab work, girl Cox, Carol Cox is 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.560 the one who does the DNA testing, and she came 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.840 back and said it was inconclusive that the matching red 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:49.000 hair did not match his red hair, which, as you 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.200 cannot see him, he is African American, he definitely does 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.800 not have red hair. He is black headed. And so 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.440 they have found out, now all these years later, that 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:59.120 she falsified evidence. 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.240 Yeah, and when you say that, it's so strange, and 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.920 just to paint a picture for you, Cedric is a 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.840 very handsome African American man with a beard and black hair, 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:11.760 and so it's so bizarre that there would be anything 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:12.920 to do with any red hair. 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:14.200 It just doesn't make any sense. 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.640 Every week we have another case, and every one of 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.320 them is crazy because you sit there and go, how 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.480 could this happen? But in this case it takes another 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:28.920 level of disbelief, almost or suspending this belief because you say, okay, 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.719 so she said that she identified you because one of 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.600 the two guys pulled up his mask a little bit, 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:37.880 and so maybe she saw the chin or something of 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.760 the guy. And then also she claimed to be able 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:44.280 to identify your hands, which is nuts. I mean, is 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.160 there anything particularly I mean, I'm looking at your hands 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:48.559 and you could be a hand model. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:50.200 It's a regular hands. 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:54.080 There's nothing particularly unique or identifying, no scars, you're not 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:58.559 missing a finger, right, So how would somebody possibly be able? 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:03.839 And again we know that in times of stress, extreme stress, 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.560 people are even less likely to be able to identify 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:09.919 someone even if they see their whole face, because the 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:12.720 brain does not work like a tape recorder, even though 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.120 a lot of people think that it does. Must have 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:17.839 been very convincing a trial when you have a victim 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.080 who says I recognized him, I knew the guy. You 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:24.680 had her testifying that she knew you and could identify you, 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.839 and then you had this forensic analyst lying yes, basically 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:29.760 just lying. But let's not sugarcoat it. 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.600 She completely lied and has been proven that she has 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.640 lied on other cases as well, and has gotten in 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.760 no trouble whatsoever for falsifying evidence. 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.960 Which never ceases to amaze me, Tina, I mean how 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:41.880 And this is. 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:46.440 Also an odd case because once I found him completely innocent, obviously, 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.320 all the lawsuits and everything I went through, most cases 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.440 and most situations in most states, they say, Okay, now 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.520 we have the DNA, We're going to run it through 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:55.160 the data bank. 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:56.800 We want to know who actually did this. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:02.120 They won't run it, so they're not actually out to 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:05.240 catch who really did this. Say their evidence say this 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.360 person has committed another crime and their DNA is in 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.920 the DNA data bank Oklahoma. Won't run it to find 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.440 out who really robbed this person. So there's no intention 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:18.240 on catching who really did it. It's just at the 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:19.520 time they wanted a conviction. 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.360 They want to save the case. Yes, and justice be damned, Cedric. 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.919 Let's go back to you. So all of a sudden, 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.480 you find yourself in sort of like a vortex like this, 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.039 everything's going crazy. Actually, your alibi, let's talk about that, 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.840 because you had a very very strong alibi. 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.599 Right, where were you on the day of the crime, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:39.279 at the time. 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.359 Of the crime, the morning of the crime, island and 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.359 put flowers on my mother's grave. And after that, I 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.000 went to the unemployment office. Was there like three or 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.120 four hour was filling out paperwork for unemployment. 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:55.560 So there were multiple people who saw you because you 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.520 didn't go to your mother's grave alone, right, you went 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.800 with family members and then you were at the unemployment office. 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:03.960 It's not like your alibi was I was out walking 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.400 in the park by myself all day, which would be okay, 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:09.520 well that doesn't really work, you know, I mean, and 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:11.880 that could be an ALBI. But you were at the 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.320 uneployment office where dozens of people saw you. 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.600 I signed in and I even received two chicks, but 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.000 nobody could find traces of my paperwork. So when I 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.840 got out, I went to the building and it was 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:29.560 closed down. So I called the unemployment office head office, 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.160 and they said after ten years they destroyed their records, 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.960 so they had no record of me receiving or even 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:38.160 being in there that day. 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.120 But this is when you were appealing, right, this is. 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:41.640 When I was home. 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:45.200 I just wanted to know. But I mean, at the 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.160 time of the trial though they had no they couldn't 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.440 find the evidence that he was there. Everything was just 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:51.760 stacking against him. 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:55.440 I'm assuming because you weren't a wealthy guy. You were 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:56.960 represented by a public defender. 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.440 No, I retained an attorney. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:01.920 He did, and was he competent? 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.360 Was it he or she was a family attorney, and 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:09.160 family attorney had never done criminal law, criminal felony. 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:11.440 He had never done any of that. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:16.840 So here's another typical situation that we find in wrongful convictions, 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.800 which is that you have an attorney who is a 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.960 nice way to put it, would be underqualified and vastly overmatched, 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.520 because you're up there, you've got a witness testifying that 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:29.800 she knows you and can identify you and pointing at 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:31.920 you in the court really as soon, and then you've 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:35.880 got a forensic analyst who's probably talking about her fancy 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.360 degrees that she's gotten all this stuff right, and the 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.360 jury would be sitting there going obviously the guy did it? 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.520 What can you say? Do you recall did he do 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.400 any work? Did he go to the unemployment office? Did 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:48.800 he interview people? Did he did he interview the witness 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:49.520 the victim? 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.240 I mean he interviewed the victim. I don't think he 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.240 went to the unemployment office. If he did, he was 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.079 turned down for some reason. My family went to the 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.480 unemployment office, they would turn down. They wouldn't don't get 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:01.160 any paperwork. 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:04.960 That's bizarre, Like why wouldn't they allow them to have 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:05.720 your paperwork? 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:07.640 Were you bailed out? Were you held in jail? 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:09.720 Funding the trial held in pitting trail. 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:11.640 The bail, I'm assuming it was pretty high because it 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:12.800 was a violent crime. 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.400 Like one hundred and twenty thousand. 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.360 Right, and your family wasn't a wealthy family, you had 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.400 no ability to post that bail. So yeah, so you 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.320 otherwise you could have gone down there yourself. I'm probably reckoning. 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:23.240 People were recognizing you said, oh yeah, there's a guy 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.680 who was Yeah. So that's another big drawback, and we 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.680 see that again and again where your ability to defend 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.320 yourself is really badly. 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.439 Hampered when you're stuck. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.160 In jail, not only because of things like that, but 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.199 also because it's much more difficult for your lawyer to 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.440 visit you. And many people don't even get a visit 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:41.679 from their lawyer when in jail. They have to go 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:43.520 through the whole process, they have to go to the jail, 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.360 they have to sign in. They don't make it easy 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.440 for people to visit. I know from going to jails myself. 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.520 So yeah, the odds were totally stacked against you. You 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:54.400 didn't have a snowball chance in hell in this situation. 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.400 So let's go to the trial. First of all, there 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.320 were two assailants, but they only caught one, not the 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.079 wrong one. So in fact we know that they never 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:06.360 caught anybody career that was you know, and that these 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.800 guys who were very scary guys are still out there, 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.880 probably victimizing other people. I mean, it's logical. It's not 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:15.760 the type of crime as like an isolated incident. If 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:17.880 you're doing that, that's probably way you're making your living. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.800 So who knows how many other victims fell prey because 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:22.960 of the fact that, unfortunately the authorities didn't do their 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:23.720 job correctly. 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:25.760 And again that's being polite. 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:30.000 So your go to trial and the arguments are made, 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:32.040 jury goes out, how long are they. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:33.679 Delivered for not Lome? 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:36.600 It wasn't long, open and shut case as far as 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:37.240 they were concerned. 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.280 Yeah, and they come back in. Did you think that 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:40.640 they were going to find you guilty? 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.360 I thought I was going home, I asked my attorney, 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:44.959 So what do you think you said, we got a 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.240 fifty to fifty chance. After that, I figured it I 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:49.200 wouldn't going home. 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:54.079 I can't imagine the pressure of what that's like. I mean, 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.240 I've only been in a civil trial myself, and even 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.480 that's like when you're waiting for the jury verdict and 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.520 all this is take his money in that case, right, 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.679 not freedom, not your life. You're facing two thirty year 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.200 sentences here. I don't understand how you could even like 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.640 not collapse. In a situation like that, you have to 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:12.559 be a strong person. 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:14.960 And I've ever been in that situation before. How would 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:15.280 you know? 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.800 And especially back then that was say, twenty years ago. 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:20.679 It's not like you could just get on Google and 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.840 all of a sudden start researching best attorneys. That's that 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.680 they just had to go by what they knew, what attorney, 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.520 they knew, what family friend for this person, which they 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:31.880 should have at that time. You know, looking back, probably 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.200 should have just went with a public defender, somebody that 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:35.360 had any idea. 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.640 You know that there were no good answers here, right 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:38.800 the public defenders. 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:40.360 The odds were stacked against them. 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.760 If I could just wave a magic wand I would 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:45.680 put a law in that you have to be represented 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.240 by a criminal defense lawyer, that would seem logical to me. 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.520 If you have to go get surgery on your heart, 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:52.920 they don't say, well, we don't have a guy available 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.040 for that, but we do have a pediatrist, right, but 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:01.920 you know we haven't. That doesn't This is the only 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.080 profession where that kind of stuff goes on. There's a 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.280 lot of things that are unique about the legal profession 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.760 in this country, but the system is not designed right. 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.680 It's literally life or death in many cases, and your 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.200 case is not far from it. You know, it wasn't 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.040 a murder, and you weren't facing the death penalty. But 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.880 even in death penalty cases we see crazy things go on. 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:25.640 But in your case, they were literally playing with your life. 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.600 The stakes were total because you're facing two thirty years sentence. 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.040 So the jury comes back in and can you paint 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.679 a picture like what was the site? Sound smells with 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:48.760 the courtorn fold? Was your family there? 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.000 The quote womb was full, My family was there. They 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.000 came back and read a verdict. I drop my head 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.600 and I heard my family screaming, Yes, that's all I 0:12:58.600 --> 0:12:59.080 can remember. 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.079 I can't nobody, as I think Tina was saying, nobody 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.280 that hasn't been there could ever imagine what that's like. 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.600 And then they take you away and now you're sentenced 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:10.440 to two thirty year terms. 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:11.400 Correct. 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.520 What prison were you sent to? Was the maximum security. 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.160 Cotton County Jail is where they sent me because the 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.600 prisons were so full and they would rent out small 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.760 jails for doc inmates. Actually, the place where I started 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.000 at is where I actually went home from. 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.360 Just four hours away from where I live now. Yeah, 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:32.000 the crime. 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.880 Happened, So you get sent to this jail, and people, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.720 I think a lot of people think that jails are 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:40.920 more benign than prisons, but a lot of them are 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:46.640 extremely dangerous. And they also lack the facilities that prisons have, right, 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.960 because they're only just designed to basically warehouse people. There's 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:51.559 no there's no I mean a lot of jails you 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.640 don't get to go outside. There's no recreation of any sort, 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.719 even the most rudimentary. So you were there, and then 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.480 eventually you got transferred. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:05.720 To Granted, which is a high, medium security facility. 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:10.200 During this time, you were seeking appeals, you were trying 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.920 to find evidence that would exonerate you. Right, how did 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.400 that process take shape? And then we're going to get 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:17.679 to what I really want to talk about, how you 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.440 met Tina and how this beautiful love story started. But first, 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.440 how did this thing start to turn your way? Unlike 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:26.520 most of the people we've had on the show, you 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.800 were not able to prove your innocence while you were 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.160 in prison because they claimed to have lost the evidence, right, 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.400 which we now know that was not the case. They 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.000 just really weren't looking for it. But okay, let's leave 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.720 that alone. For a second. You ended up serving how 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:40.320 much time? 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:42.960 I did eight on the first thirty in parole to 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:44.920 the second one did eight on the second thirty in 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:45.560 parode Home. 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.360 He contacted the Innocence Project back in nineteen ninety six, 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:51.840 and they had contacted Tulsa County, which is the county 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:53.720 was out of and they had said they had lost 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:54.320 his evidence. 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.280 Right, so you contacted us almost immediately. 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.760 I actually contacted the Oklahoma the FITST system, and they. 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:03.360 Sent me to you guys, right. 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.520 What happens when someone like yourself contacts against this project 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.680 is we review the letter. We try to find out whether, 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.520 as best we can, whether there's some veracity to the 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.600 claim of innocence, because not everybody that writes to us 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:16.040 is innocent. 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:16.960 Some people just like to. 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.040 Waste our time because if you're guilty, the DNA is 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.240 just going to prove that you're guilty. But anyway, so 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.640 we review that, and then of course our next job 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:25.840 is to find out if there is DNA that exists 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.800 in the case. And as happens, unfortunately, in about thirty 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:33.280 two percent of the cases, we look for the evidence 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.080 and we get told that it's lost or destroyed or whatever. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:37.600 It is, and that's what happened in your case. 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.000 Yeah, first I was told it was destroyed. Then they 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:42.560 told me it was lost. 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.520 Right, so they changed their story. That's a little bit 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:45.640 of a red flag there. 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.200 You serve out your sense, but before you're finished, an 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.160 interesting thing happens. Right, you're in the last year of 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.840 your sentence, and you guys end up crossing paths. 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:56.440 We did. 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.280 Now Tina, if you meet her, she looks more like 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.200 a pops are a movie star that a prison guard. 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.760 You know, it's sort of disarming. You were working as 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.800 a daycare worker and then you switch careers. 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.800 Yes, because the early retirement, I could retire after twenty 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:12.880 years and then I can do my own job. My 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.960 son would have the stability at home. We have just 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.120 had all the perks, a better pay and a better 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.920 health plan and entrance for one ks. All of our retirement. 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.560 Had everything that I needed at that time in my life. 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:28.920 Such an interesting transition to go from taking care of 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.360 little children working in a prison, right, sort of almost 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:32.920 an opposite. 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:34.840 I really didn't enjoy it. 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.240 After you get in and you realize it's not what 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:42.920 people tell you, you start meeting individuals and hearing their stories. 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.840 And you just get a little bit more compassionate towards 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:49.400 people and realizing everybody's story is different. 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:50.440 They're not just a number. 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.080 Let's go back to how did you meet Cedric? Which 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:55.600 part of the prison were you in? 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:56.960 It was a. 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.160 Minimum security, was work release. He worked for the county, 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.240 and my lieutenant had asked me to work late one evening, 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:05.240 and I of course. 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:06.080 Eager to do that. 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.440 I worked late and he came in from working at 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.760 that facility you could walk in walk out, and he 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:13.760 walked in the front door, and he was dirty and 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.479 him and working all day and he was really just 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.199 polite and shy. I couldn't get him to talk to 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.919 me at that time. He was trying to avoid me 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.040 at all costs because well, you. 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.639 Get in trouble that way. Yeah, well, and you're on 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:28.119 your way out. 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.040 You're not say the officers and his you know, for 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:35.399 sixteen years, officers had not been trustworthy people, not but 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:37.960 not trustworthy. It's just as an inmate, as an officer, 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.160 you don't become friends. You keep that distance. 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.520 So well, it would also have been you know, you 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.160 would have lost your job or worse, had anything. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.680 Yeah, and I was not my plan in any way, 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:50.440 shape or form to go in there and form any 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.119 friendships with anyone. I still remember it, but we really 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.320 didn't start talking until after that. 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:58.720 They told me they would do everything they can to 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.240 send me back to where I came from the work 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.680 release and then see comes through the door. 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.400 Hey, how you doing? Oh I'm fine. 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.120 Wait wait when you said they told you they want 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:10.640 to sit back we came from? What do you can 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:11.560 you elaborate on that? 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.159 The warden of the facility told me that they was 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.240 gonna try to send me back to where I came from, 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:18.400 back to high security. 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.000 Why just it was just a mean, just a bit. 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.479 Yeah, so you weren't trying to break any rules, as 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:26.960 you can almost see freedom at this point in time, right, 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.359 you you talked about how that was instant chemistry right 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:31.840