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Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door, open up.

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Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

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Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man.

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Speaker 3: A year later, I ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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Speaker 2: in the world is going to think as a monster

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Speaker 2: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

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Speaker 2: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

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Speaker 2: with that. Somebody was able to look at my picture

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Speaker 2: in the database and say that I was somewhere where

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Speaker 2: I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 4: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 4: might have to play in my hanging.

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Speaker 3: They had been told that.

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Speaker 4: Two prison officers would have to participate in my execution.

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Speaker 3: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,

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Speaker 3: all help broke loose.

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Speaker 5: But this is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 5: with Jason Flamm. Today we have a very special Valentine's

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Speaker 5: Day edition featuring two extraordinary people, Cedric Courtney and his

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Speaker 5: beautiful wife, Tina.

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Speaker 1: Cedric Tina, Welcome to the show. Thank you, Thank you so.

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Speaker 5: Cedric and Tina have a very unusual and beautiful love story,

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Speaker 5: which is that they met in prison, and as you're

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Speaker 5: probably now spitting out your coffee listening to this, I

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Speaker 5: can tell you that Cedric was wrongfully convicted of armed

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Speaker 5: robbery and he was incarcerated in Oklahoma and met Tina

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Speaker 5: when she was working in the prison as a guard.

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Speaker 6: Cedric Courtney was exonerated after he had already served his

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Speaker 6: time in prison fifteen years. He sued Tulsa Police o

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Speaker 6: for testimony given by a lab technician that helped to

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Speaker 6: convict him a DNA test. The evidence much later showed

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Speaker 6: it was not connected to Courtney.

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Speaker 7: Today, DNA is the gold standard for prosecutors and defense attorneys.

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Speaker 5: The lack of it helped Courtney's attorneys get his conviction

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Speaker 5: set aside. It's a great thing to see now they

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Speaker 5: have a family. But I want to go back to

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Speaker 5: sort of the beginning, Cedric, where were you from?

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Speaker 1: Originally?

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Speaker 3: I'm really from Tosa, Oklahoma, and Tina.

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Speaker 1: How about you?

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Speaker 7: We'ren and raised in the same place, dunk And, Oklahoma.

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Speaker 5: So you start off there and you grew up. Did

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Speaker 5: you have a happy childhood?

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Speaker 1: Cedric?

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Speaker 3: For most part? Yes, and you.

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Speaker 1: Too, yes? Nice?

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Speaker 5: So everything was going pretty good, I guess, I mean,

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Speaker 5: you know, life's not easy, and I know your life

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Speaker 5: wasn't easy, Cedric, But then things took a really terrible

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Speaker 5: turn back in nineteen ninety five, and to paint a picture,

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Speaker 5: on April sixth, nineteen ninety five, what happened was two

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Speaker 5: men with pistols and wearing ski masks kicked in the

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Speaker 5: door of an apartment of a woman named Shmida Greer

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Speaker 5: and they forced heart of the floor, pistol whipped her

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Speaker 5: and duct taped her eyes and mouth, and during the robbery,

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Speaker 5: which lasted less than ten minutes, they kicked her in

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Speaker 5: the head and she played dead and they left with

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Speaker 5: three hundred and ninety seven dollars in cash, four tires,

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Speaker 5: and four wheel rims.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 5: She then went on to mistakenly identify you. And we

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Speaker 5: see mistaken I with its identification all the time. It's

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Speaker 5: the number one leading cause of wrongful convictions. But in

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Speaker 5: this case it was unusual because you actually knew her

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Speaker 5: and she thought it was you for reasons that still

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Speaker 5: nobody understands. Right, So how did this happen? I mean

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Speaker 5: you had an alibi?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 4: Well, they also said in the trial that the person

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Speaker 4: who does the lab work, girl Cox, Carol Cox is

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Speaker 4: the one who does the DNA testing, and she came

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Speaker 4: back and said it was inconclusive that the matching red

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Speaker 4: hair did not match his red hair, which, as you

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Speaker 4: cannot see him, he is African American, he definitely does

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Speaker 4: not have red hair. He is black headed. And so

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Speaker 4: they have found out, now all these years later, that

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Speaker 4: she falsified evidence.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and when you say that, it's so strange, and

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Speaker 5: just to paint a picture for you, Cedric is a

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Speaker 5: very handsome African American man with a beard and black hair,

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Speaker 5: and so it's so bizarre that there would be anything

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Speaker 5: to do with any red hair.

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Speaker 1: It just doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 5: Every week we have another case, and every one of

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Speaker 5: them is crazy because you sit there and go, how

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Speaker 5: could this happen? But in this case it takes another

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Speaker 5: level of disbelief, almost or suspending this belief because you say, okay,

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Speaker 5: so she said that she identified you because one of

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Speaker 5: the two guys pulled up his mask a little bit,

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Speaker 5: and so maybe she saw the chin or something of

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Speaker 5: the guy. And then also she claimed to be able

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Speaker 5: to identify your hands, which is nuts. I mean, is

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Speaker 5: there anything particularly I mean, I'm looking at your hands

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Speaker 5: and you could be a hand model.

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Speaker 1: It's a regular hands.

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Speaker 5: There's nothing particularly unique or identifying, no scars, you're not

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Speaker 5: missing a finger, right, So how would somebody possibly be able?

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Speaker 5: And again we know that in times of stress, extreme stress,

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Speaker 5: people are even less likely to be able to identify

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Speaker 5: someone even if they see their whole face, because the

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Speaker 5: brain does not work like a tape recorder, even though

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Speaker 5: a lot of people think that it does. Must have

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Speaker 5: been very convincing a trial when you have a victim

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Speaker 5: who says I recognized him, I knew the guy. You

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Speaker 5: had her testifying that she knew you and could identify you,

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Speaker 5: and then you had this forensic analyst lying yes, basically

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Speaker 5: just lying. But let's not sugarcoat it.

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Speaker 4: She completely lied and has been proven that she has

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Speaker 4: lied on other cases as well, and has gotten in

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Speaker 4: no trouble whatsoever for falsifying evidence.

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Speaker 5: Which never ceases to amaze me, Tina, I mean how

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Speaker 5: And this is.

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Speaker 4: Also an odd case because once I found him completely innocent, obviously,

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Speaker 4: all the lawsuits and everything I went through, most cases

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Speaker 4: and most situations in most states, they say, Okay, now

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Speaker 4: we have the DNA, We're going to run it through

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Speaker 4: the data bank.

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Speaker 7: We want to know who actually did this.

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Speaker 4: They won't run it, so they're not actually out to

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Speaker 4: catch who really did this. Say their evidence say this

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Speaker 4: person has committed another crime and their DNA is in

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Speaker 4: the DNA data bank Oklahoma. Won't run it to find

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Speaker 4: out who really robbed this person. So there's no intention

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Speaker 4: on catching who really did it. It's just at the

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Speaker 4: time they wanted a conviction.

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Speaker 5: They want to save the case. Yes, and justice be damned, Cedric.

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Speaker 5: Let's go back to you. So all of a sudden,

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Speaker 5: you find yourself in sort of like a vortex like this,

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Speaker 5: everything's going crazy. Actually, your alibi, let's talk about that,

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Speaker 5: because you had a very very strong alibi.

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Speaker 1: Right, where were you on the day of the crime,

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Speaker 1: at the time.

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Speaker 2: Of the crime, the morning of the crime, island and

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Speaker 2: put flowers on my mother's grave. And after that, I

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Speaker 2: went to the unemployment office. Was there like three or

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Speaker 2: four hour was filling out paperwork for unemployment.

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Speaker 5: So there were multiple people who saw you because you

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Speaker 5: didn't go to your mother's grave alone, right, you went

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Speaker 5: with family members and then you were at the unemployment office.

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Speaker 5: It's not like your alibi was I was out walking

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Speaker 5: in the park by myself all day, which would be okay,

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Speaker 5: well that doesn't really work, you know, I mean, and

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Speaker 5: that could be an ALBI. But you were at the

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Speaker 5: uneployment office where dozens of people saw you.

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Speaker 2: I signed in and I even received two chicks, but

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Speaker 2: nobody could find traces of my paperwork. So when I

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Speaker 2: got out, I went to the building and it was

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Speaker 2: closed down. So I called the unemployment office head office,

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Speaker 2: and they said after ten years they destroyed their records,

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Speaker 2: so they had no record of me receiving or even

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Speaker 2: being in there that day.

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Speaker 1: But this is when you were appealing, right, this is.

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Speaker 3: When I was home.

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Speaker 4: I just wanted to know. But I mean, at the

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Speaker 4: time of the trial though they had no they couldn't

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Speaker 4: find the evidence that he was there. Everything was just

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Speaker 4: stacking against him.

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Speaker 5: I'm assuming because you weren't a wealthy guy. You were

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Speaker 5: represented by a public defender.

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Speaker 3: No, I retained an attorney.

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Speaker 1: He did, and was he competent?

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Speaker 4: Was it he or she was a family attorney, and

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Speaker 4: family attorney had never done criminal law, criminal felony.

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Speaker 3: He had never done any of that.

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Speaker 5: So here's another typical situation that we find in wrongful convictions,

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Speaker 5: which is that you have an attorney who is a

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Speaker 5: nice way to put it, would be underqualified and vastly overmatched,

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Speaker 5: because you're up there, you've got a witness testifying that

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Speaker 5: she knows you and can identify you and pointing at

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Speaker 5: you in the court really as soon, and then you've

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Speaker 5: got a forensic analyst who's probably talking about her fancy

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Speaker 5: degrees that she's gotten all this stuff right, and the

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Speaker 5: jury would be sitting there going obviously the guy did it?

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Speaker 5: What can you say? Do you recall did he do

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Speaker 5: any work? Did he go to the unemployment office? Did

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Speaker 5: he interview people? Did he did he interview the witness

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Speaker 5: the victim?

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Speaker 2: I mean he interviewed the victim. I don't think he

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Speaker 2: went to the unemployment office. If he did, he was

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Speaker 2: turned down for some reason. My family went to the

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Speaker 2: unemployment office, they would turn down. They wouldn't don't get

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Speaker 2: any paperwork.

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Speaker 5: That's bizarre, Like why wouldn't they allow them to have

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Speaker 5: your paperwork?

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Speaker 1: Were you bailed out? Were you held in jail?

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Speaker 3: Funding the trial held in pitting trail.

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Speaker 1: The bail, I'm assuming it was pretty high because it

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Speaker 1: was a violent crime.

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Speaker 3: Like one hundred and twenty thousand.

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Speaker 5: Right, and your family wasn't a wealthy family, you had

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Speaker 5: no ability to post that bail. So yeah, so you

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Speaker 5: otherwise you could have gone down there yourself. I'm probably reckoning.

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Speaker 5: People were recognizing you said, oh yeah, there's a guy

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Speaker 5: who was Yeah. So that's another big drawback, and we

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Speaker 5: see that again and again where your ability to defend

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Speaker 5: yourself is really badly.

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Speaker 1: Hampered when you're stuck.

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Speaker 5: In jail, not only because of things like that, but

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Speaker 5: also because it's much more difficult for your lawyer to

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Speaker 5: visit you. And many people don't even get a visit

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Speaker 5: from their lawyer when in jail. They have to go

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Speaker 5: through the whole process, they have to go to the jail,

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Speaker 5: they have to sign in. They don't make it easy

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Speaker 5: for people to visit. I know from going to jails myself.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, the odds were totally stacked against you. You

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Speaker 5: didn't have a snowball chance in hell in this situation.

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Speaker 5: So let's go to the trial. First of all, there

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Speaker 5: were two assailants, but they only caught one, not the

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Speaker 5: wrong one. So in fact we know that they never

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Speaker 5: caught anybody career that was you know, and that these

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Speaker 5: guys who were very scary guys are still out there,

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Speaker 5: probably victimizing other people. I mean, it's logical. It's not

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Speaker 5: the type of crime as like an isolated incident. If

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Speaker 5: you're doing that, that's probably way you're making your living.

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Speaker 5: So who knows how many other victims fell prey because

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Speaker 5: of the fact that, unfortunately the authorities didn't do their

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Speaker 5: job correctly.

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Speaker 1: And again that's being polite.

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Speaker 5: So your go to trial and the arguments are made,

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Speaker 5: jury goes out, how long are they.

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Speaker 3: Delivered for not Lome?

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Speaker 1: It wasn't long, open and shut case as far as

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Speaker 1: they were concerned.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and they come back in. Did you think that

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Speaker 5: they were going to find you guilty?

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Speaker 2: I thought I was going home, I asked my attorney,

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Speaker 2: So what do you think you said, we got a

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Speaker 2: fifty to fifty chance. After that, I figured it I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't going home.

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Speaker 5: I can't imagine the pressure of what that's like. I mean,

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Speaker 5: I've only been in a civil trial myself, and even

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Speaker 5: that's like when you're waiting for the jury verdict and

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Speaker 5: all this is take his money in that case, right,

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Speaker 5: not freedom, not your life. You're facing two thirty year

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Speaker 5: sentences here. I don't understand how you could even like

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Speaker 5: not collapse. In a situation like that, you have to

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Speaker 5: be a strong person.

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Speaker 7: And I've ever been in that situation before. How would

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Speaker 7: you know?

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Speaker 4: And especially back then that was say, twenty years ago.

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Speaker 4: It's not like you could just get on Google and

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Speaker 4: all of a sudden start researching best attorneys. That's that

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Speaker 4: they just had to go by what they knew, what attorney,

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Speaker 4: they knew, what family friend for this person, which they

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Speaker 4: should have at that time. You know, looking back, probably

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Speaker 4: should have just went with a public defender, somebody that

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Speaker 4: had any idea.

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Speaker 5: You know that there were no good answers here, right

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Speaker 5: the public defenders.

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Speaker 1: The odds were stacked against them.

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Speaker 5: If I could just wave a magic wand I would

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Speaker 5: put a law in that you have to be represented

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Speaker 5: by a criminal defense lawyer, that would seem logical to me.

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Speaker 5: If you have to go get surgery on your heart,

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Speaker 5: they don't say, well, we don't have a guy available

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Speaker 5: for that, but we do have a pediatrist, right, but

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Speaker 5: you know we haven't. That doesn't This is the only

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Speaker 5: profession where that kind of stuff goes on. There's a

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Speaker 5: lot of things that are unique about the legal profession

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Speaker 5: in this country, but the system is not designed right.

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Speaker 5: It's literally life or death in many cases, and your

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Speaker 5: case is not far from it. You know, it wasn't

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Speaker 5: a murder, and you weren't facing the death penalty. But

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Speaker 5: even in death penalty cases we see crazy things go on.

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Speaker 5: But in your case, they were literally playing with your life.

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Speaker 5: The stakes were total because you're facing two thirty years sentence.

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Speaker 5: So the jury comes back in and can you paint

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Speaker 5: a picture like what was the site? Sound smells with

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Speaker 5: the courtorn fold? Was your family there?

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Speaker 2: The quote womb was full, My family was there. They

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Speaker 2: came back and read a verdict. I drop my head

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Speaker 2: and I heard my family screaming, Yes, that's all I

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Speaker 2: can remember.

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Speaker 5: I can't nobody, as I think Tina was saying, nobody

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Speaker 5: that hasn't been there could ever imagine what that's like.

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Speaker 5: And then they take you away and now you're sentenced

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Speaker 5: to two thirty year terms.

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Speaker 3: Correct.

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Speaker 1: What prison were you sent to? Was the maximum security.

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Speaker 2: Cotton County Jail is where they sent me because the

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Speaker 2: prisons were so full and they would rent out small

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Speaker 2: jails for doc inmates. Actually, the place where I started

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Speaker 2: at is where I actually went home from.

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Speaker 7: Just four hours away from where I live now. Yeah,

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Speaker 7: the crime.

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Speaker 5: Happened, So you get sent to this jail, and people,

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Speaker 5: I think a lot of people think that jails are

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Speaker 5: more benign than prisons, but a lot of them are

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Speaker 5: extremely dangerous. And they also lack the facilities that prisons have, right,

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Speaker 5: because they're only just designed to basically warehouse people. There's

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Speaker 5: no there's no I mean a lot of jails you

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Speaker 5: don't get to go outside. There's no recreation of any sort,

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Speaker 5: even the most rudimentary. So you were there, and then

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Speaker 5: eventually you got transferred.

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Speaker 2: To Granted, which is a high, medium security facility.

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Speaker 5: During this time, you were seeking appeals, you were trying

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Speaker 5: to find evidence that would exonerate you. Right, how did

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Speaker 5: that process take shape? And then we're going to get

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Speaker 5: to what I really want to talk about, how you

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Speaker 5: met Tina and how this beautiful love story started. But first,

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Speaker 5: how did this thing start to turn your way? Unlike

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Speaker 5: most of the people we've had on the show, you

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Speaker 5: were not able to prove your innocence while you were

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Speaker 5: in prison because they claimed to have lost the evidence, right,

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Speaker 5: which we now know that was not the case. They

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Speaker 5: just really weren't looking for it. But okay, let's leave

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Speaker 5: that alone. For a second. You ended up serving how

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Speaker 5: much time?

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Speaker 2: I did eight on the first thirty in parole to

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Speaker 2: the second one did eight on the second thirty in

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Speaker 2: parode Home.

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Speaker 4: He contacted the Innocence Project back in nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 4: and they had contacted Tulsa County, which is the county

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Speaker 4: was out of and they had said they had lost

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Speaker 4: his evidence.

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Speaker 1: Right, so you contacted us almost immediately.

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Speaker 2: I actually contacted the Oklahoma the FITST system, and they.

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Speaker 3: Sent me to you guys, right.

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Speaker 5: What happens when someone like yourself contacts against this project

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Speaker 5: is we review the letter. We try to find out whether,

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Speaker 5: as best we can, whether there's some veracity to the

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Speaker 5: claim of innocence, because not everybody that writes to us

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Speaker 5: is innocent.

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Speaker 1: Some people just like to.

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Speaker 5: Waste our time because if you're guilty, the DNA is

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Speaker 5: just going to prove that you're guilty. But anyway, so

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Speaker 5: we review that, and then of course our next job

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Speaker 5: is to find out if there is DNA that exists

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Speaker 5: in the case. And as happens, unfortunately, in about thirty

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Speaker 5: two percent of the cases, we look for the evidence

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Speaker 5: and we get told that it's lost or destroyed or whatever.

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Speaker 5: It is, and that's what happened in your case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, first I was told it was destroyed. Then they

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Speaker 3: told me it was lost.

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Speaker 1: Right, so they changed their story. That's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a red flag there.

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Speaker 5: You serve out your sense, but before you're finished, an

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Speaker 5: interesting thing happens. Right, you're in the last year of

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Speaker 5: your sentence, and you guys end up crossing paths.

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Speaker 7: We did.

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Speaker 5: Now Tina, if you meet her, she looks more like

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Speaker 5: a pops are a movie star that a prison guard.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's sort of disarming. You were working as

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Speaker 5: a daycare worker and then you switch careers.

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Speaker 4: Yes, because the early retirement, I could retire after twenty

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Speaker 4: years and then I can do my own job. My

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Speaker 4: son would have the stability at home. We have just

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Speaker 4: had all the perks, a better pay and a better

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Speaker 4: health plan and entrance for one ks. All of our retirement.

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Speaker 4: Had everything that I needed at that time in my life.

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Speaker 5: Such an interesting transition to go from taking care of

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Speaker 5: little children working in a prison, right, sort of almost

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Speaker 5: an opposite.

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Speaker 7: I really didn't enjoy it.

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Speaker 4: After you get in and you realize it's not what

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Speaker 4: people tell you, you start meeting individuals and hearing their stories.

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Speaker 4: And you just get a little bit more compassionate towards

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Speaker 4: people and realizing everybody's story is different.

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Speaker 7: They're not just a number.

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Speaker 5: Let's go back to how did you meet Cedric? Which

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Speaker 5: part of the prison were you in?

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Speaker 7: It was a.

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Speaker 4: Minimum security, was work release. He worked for the county,

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Speaker 4: and my lieutenant had asked me to work late one evening,

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Speaker 4: and I of course.

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Speaker 7: Eager to do that.

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Speaker 4: I worked late and he came in from working at

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Speaker 4: that facility you could walk in walk out, and he

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Speaker 4: walked in the front door, and he was dirty and

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Speaker 4: him and working all day and he was really just

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Speaker 4: polite and shy. I couldn't get him to talk to

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Speaker 4: me at that time. He was trying to avoid me

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Speaker 4: at all costs because well, you.

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Speaker 1: Get in trouble that way. Yeah, well, and you're on

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Speaker 1: your way out.

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Speaker 4: You're not say the officers and his you know, for

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Speaker 4: sixteen years, officers had not been trustworthy people, not but

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Speaker 4: not trustworthy. It's just as an inmate, as an officer,

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Speaker 4: you don't become friends. You keep that distance.

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Speaker 5: So well, it would also have been you know, you

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Speaker 5: would have lost your job or worse, had anything.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was not my plan in any way,

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Speaker 4: shape or form to go in there and form any

385
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Speaker 4: friendships with anyone. I still remember it, but we really

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Speaker 4: didn't start talking until after that.

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Speaker 2: They told me they would do everything they can to

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Speaker 2: send me back to where I came from the work

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Speaker 2: release and then see comes through the door.

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Speaker 3: Hey, how you doing? Oh I'm fine.

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Speaker 5: Wait wait when you said they told you they want

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Speaker 5: to sit back we came from? What do you can

393
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Speaker 5: you elaborate on that?

394
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Speaker 2: The warden of the facility told me that they was

395
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Speaker 2: gonna try to send me back to where I came from,

396
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Speaker 2: back to high security.

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Speaker 1: Why just it was just a mean, just a bit.

398
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Speaker 5: Yeah, so you weren't trying to break any rules, as

399
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Speaker 5: you can almost see freedom at this point in time, right,

400
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Speaker 5: you you talked about how that was instant chemistry right

401
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Speaker 5: for you, and what about you said, I mean.

402
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Speaker 3: Were you trying to go home?

403
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Speaker 5: You're just trying to go home, so you weren't even

404
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Speaker 5: you weren't even picking up on those vibes yet. Oh wow,

405
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Speaker 5: that's interesting. And of course you've been disconnected from you know,

406
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Speaker 5: this this life for sixteen years at this point, right, he.

407
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Speaker 4: Still doesn't get my hints or my flirt, so I'm

408
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Speaker 4: used to it.

409
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Speaker 1: Well, something could happen. You got kids, I mean, like

410
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Speaker 1: you must have picked up on it on some point.

411
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Speaker 5: I mean, I'm not a specialist in family planning, but

412
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Speaker 5: it seems to me something good with Right, he.

413
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Speaker 4: Was out smoking a cigar in the dark, and I

414
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Speaker 4: made myself over there and told him to scoot over.

415
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Speaker 7: I wanted to sit down and have a conversation.

416
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Speaker 1: This is after he got out.

417
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Speaker 7: Oh, this was daring.

418
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Speaker 5: Wait wait wait, wait, you're smoking a cigar in the

419
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Speaker 5: prison outside outside Oh, because you're on work release. Yes, right,

420
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Speaker 5: so you see him and now you're on work release,

421
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Speaker 5: which means are you out? Not really, not really, but

422
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Speaker 5: you went up to him anyway, I did and said, what.

423
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Speaker 4: Just try to make conversation with everybody that was sitting around,

424
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Speaker 4: just trying to, you know, like try to learn something

425
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Speaker 4: about him, because obviously see that he lifts weights, he's

426
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Speaker 4: in shape, he plays basketball.

427
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Speaker 7: He just seemed like a really friendly person.

428
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Speaker 4: And I'm the type of person like I had never

429
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Speaker 4: even had a speeding ticket. I had never even known

430
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Speaker 4: anybody that had been to prison before, so this.

431
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Speaker 1: Was all very new, and so this is out of character.

432
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Speaker 7: Yeah, this was definitely audacuate because.

433
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Speaker 1: You didn't know if he was innocent.

434
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Speaker 5: You had no idea, right for all, you knew this,

435
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Speaker 5: this is a daterous guy.

436
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Speaker 7: And I asked him a bazillion questions.

437
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Speaker 4: I went through chart Actually, I would ask him questions,

438
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 4: and he was honest on everything, every single thing down

439
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 4: to when his last visit was, who it was with,

440
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,199
Speaker 4: Everything was all very honest, and at that point I

441
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Speaker 4: was I was willing to get to know him a

442
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Speaker 4: little more.

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Speaker 5: So now comes the good stuff, etc. You're released, and

444
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Speaker 5: then how long did it take for you, guys to

445
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Speaker 5: go on your first date?

446
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 3: Two weeks?

447
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,680
Speaker 4: He called me immediately as soon as he was released,

448
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 4: he called me immediately and it was yes, it was

449
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 4: that weekend, and.

450
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,000
Speaker 1: Was it was? It was just like it just clicked.

451
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 7: Like that or yeah, yeah, so definitely amazing.

452
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 1: That's so great.

453
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 5: And then a romance bloomed and you start dating and

454
00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 5: then almost like you're his lucky charm or guardian need,

455
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 5: whatever the hell it might be. Right, then things get

456
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 5: more interesting again because in an amazing twist of fate,

457
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 5: it was a student, right, a law student correct, who

458
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 5: was working at the Innocence Project, who decided for reasons

459
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 5: we can't even speculate on one day to just call

460
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 5: the Tulsa Police Department again. What we'd already been shut

461
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 5: down several times on trying to find the evidence. Because

462
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 5: now you're out, but you still got a very tough

463
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 5: road ahead as a guy with a record a FELA

464
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 5: work experience last sixteen years, nothing tough to put that

465
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 5: on your resumes. So this law student, who emerges as

466
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 5: a real hero in this story, right, decides to knock

467
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 5: on the door one more time, which would seem crazy, like,

468
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 5: why goes You've already been told it's gone.

469
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 1: They told us it's lost, they told us it's destroyed.

470
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 5: But this kid, Chris the law student, if you're out there,

471
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,639
Speaker 5: Chris the law student. So he calls up and lo

472
00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 5: and behold, the evidence is.

473
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 3: Found in Texas.

474
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,120
Speaker 1: In Texas? What the fuck was it doing in Texas?

475
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 3: Nobody has any idea.

476
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 5: How did they find it in Texas? That's a miracle. Okay,

477
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 5: So somebody steers them in the right direction. Somehow the

478
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 5: dots connect, the evidence gets found, the evidence gets tested,

479
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 5: and how did you find out the results?

480
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 1: Who called you? You must have freaked out?

481
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 2: Well, I was at work and I was on parole

482
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 2: leg monitor for six months and my parole officer called

483
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 2: and said, some people from New York wants your phone number.

484
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 3: Can I give it to him? She said? They said

485
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 3: they from the Innocence Project. I said, will you please

486
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 3: give it to him?

487
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 2: So Chris called me and told me that he was

488
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 2: the last one and if he wouldn't have found it,

489
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: I'd probably be lost.

490
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: So what was your reaction when you heard the news?

491
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: I was about astonished as I was that I went

492
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 2: to prison, DNA tested.

493
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,479
Speaker 5: Let's go and then how long did it take for

494
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 5: them to test it and came back to you.

495
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: With the results?

496
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 3: Not long? Not long?

497
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 5: A couple of weeks, A couple week and they came

498
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 5: back And then this is the moment I really want

499
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 5: to get into. So when you got the call, did

500
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 5: Chris call you again? Yes, so Chris talk about a

501
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 5: guardian angel. So Chris calls you. Where were you? Were

502
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 5: you at work?

503
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: Were you at home?

504
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 3: I think I was at work.

505
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 7: He was at work because I was at work. I

506
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 7: was driving. I can remember the phone.

507
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 5: Call because you probably got the first phone call after

508
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 5: he got the.

509
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 7: Phone call to me, and he's like, okay, well, I

510
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 7: need to tell you something.

511
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 4: I was actually innocent and they have my evidence, and

512
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 4: he just kind of finally went into the story.

513
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 7: I never asked, really, did.

514
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: You break down? Did you jump for joy? Like? Did

515
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 1: you just kind of just keep it moving? What was

516
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: your reaction?

517
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 3: Can't it moving like I did when I went to prison.

518
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: I don't know what you were like before.

519
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 5: I didn't tell you back then, but it almost seems

520
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 5: like this experience sort of made you have a very

521
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 5: almost by necessity, have a very even tempered approach to life,

522
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 5: Like you're not prone to highs and lows like it

523
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 5: might have been. I think prison can take that out

524
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 5: of you sometimes too. For people to survive, they find

525
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 5: they have to not react to situations the way people

526
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 5: do on the outside. And that's one thing I pick

527
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 5: up from hanging around and being with guys like yourself,

528
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 5: is you know, you really learn to process information differently.

529
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: And then not let the little things in life get

530
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: to you.

531
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 5: And I try to take that aproadly because I mean,

532
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 5: if someone like you can go through what you've been

533
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 5: through and then sit here and be calm and be

534
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 5: positive and be moving on with your life, then what

535
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 5: right does do we on the outside who haven't been

536
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 5: through anything like this have to react or overreact to

537
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 5: situations that are just everyday situation.

538
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 1: I appreciate that.

539
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 5: And it's one of the things I always get gratitude

540
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 5: in my attitude from being around you and the other

541
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,719
Speaker 5: ax hoonaies. So I appreciate that. So you called Tina,

542
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 5: What was your reaction.

543
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 4: I was a static. I wanted to call my mother.

544
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 4: Did you Yes, I did.

545
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 7: She was excited.

546
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 4: She didn't know either that he was. It didn't matter

547
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 4: if he was in a center, if he was guilty.

548
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 4: It was just at that point I was in love

549
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 4: with him for you know, I was just love with them.

550
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 4: It was the first straight and it was amazing. I

551
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 4: was like, oh my, he's going to get his name cleared.

552
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 3: I was.

553
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 7: I was really excited, and I was on the road.

554
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 7: I was on the ball.

555
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 4: I was like, let's get this thing going. I want

556
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 4: to meet everybody and talk to everybody and let's find out.

557
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 7: I mean I was. I had as much information.

558
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 4: I had PaperWorks and PaperWorks of just looking up his history,

559
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 4: like things that had happened during the trial, as much

560
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 4: information on present people that had just gotten out on

561
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 4: wrongful convictions, you know what to expect.

562
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 7: I was trying to just do as much research as

563
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 7: possible on.

564
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 5: So it was mitochondrial DNA testing, which is the field

565
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 5: that applies to hair, that solved this right, and that

566
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 5: put things back in the right light and proved what

567
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 5: you had been saying all along, which was that he

568
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 5: was actually innocent. I'm sure working in the prison you

569
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 5: heard a lot of people's stories that they were innocent,

570
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 5: and some are and some aren't. Yeah, And that's interesting too,

571
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 5: because we talked about how this forensic analyst falsely testified

572
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 5: about the connection with the hairs to you, which of

573
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 5: course sounds ridiculous when you talk about red hairs, but

574
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 5: it happened, and it led to a very tragic outcome.

575
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 5: And it's interesting because a study was conducted recently and.

576
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: The reports were published widely.

577
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 5: They studied hundreds of cases in which FBI analysts had

578
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 5: testified on the basis of hair analysis, and they found

579
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 5: that in ninety six percent of those cases they had

580
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 5: lied or been mistaken. And what's really terrifying is that

581
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 5: in every one of those cases they were mistaken in

582
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 5: favor of the prosecution. And I say mistaken, I mean

583
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 5: we don't know whether they were lying or they were mistaken.

584
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 5: And that evidence is so powerful, and I hope that

585
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 5: people are out there listening. When you serve on a jury,

586
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 5: if you end up on a criminal trial. Many people

587
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 5: may not end up on a criminal trials long as

588
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 5: they live, but some people will. And it's easy to

589
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 5: fall for that, right when you have somebody basically almost

590
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 5: coming up in a lab coat, like, I'm a scientist.

591
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: You know, I went to this university, I went to

592
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: that university.

593
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 8: I was credited by it. And they sit there and go,

594
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 8: oh my god, you know, like, but they make mistakes.

595
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 8: Everybody makes mistakes. Doctors make mistakes, scientists make mistakes. People

596
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 8: make mistakes.

597
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 5: The fact is you have to really dig deeper and

598
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 5: not just take a sort of an incurious approach. You

599
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 5: have to be aware somebody's life is at stake. Your

600
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 5: life was at stake. They were saying something that seemed ridiculous,

601
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 5: but they were saying it with authority and with certainty.

602
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 5: And they came with this scientific background and people jurors

603
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 5: who meant well, and nobody none of those jurors went

604
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 5: on the jury hoping to convict an innocent guy I'm

605
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 5: sure they must feel terrible if they know. I believe

606
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 5: that people when they serve on a jury, they're looking

607
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 5: for the truth. They want to help solve a crime,

608
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 5: they want to help society. Nobody goes in there thinking, oh, great,

609
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,479
Speaker 5: today I'm gonna get a chance to convict an innocent

610
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 5: guy or a woman.

611
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 4: You have, I don't want to go home feeling guilty

612
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: that they made the wrong decision either.

613
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: Oh. I mean, that would be a terrible responsibility to

614
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: have to live with. But it happens that.

615
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 5: One of the things that this show highlights is that

616
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 5: it happens much more frequently than people realize, and you

617
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 5: have to be aware, and everyone has to do their

618
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 5: part and be strong in your conviction. You know, there's

619
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 5: so many cases we've seen where there's a jury room,

620
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 5: it's ten to two or it's eleven to one, and

621
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 5: finally the pressure bills and somebody's like, I got to

622
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 5: go home too. I mean, I can't sit here any longer.

623
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 5: And you're holding somebody's life in your hands. You got

624
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 5: to dig deep, you got to look for the truth.

625
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 5: The good news is they found the DNA, You're proven innocent.

626
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 5: It was sort of a miracle that DNA magically went

627
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 5: from Oklahoma to Texas. So now you are in a

628
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 5: position to sue the state, but they ended up settling

629
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 5: with you.

630
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: Is that right?

631
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 4: Yes, and then turns around and suit him for one

632
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 4: hundred thousand dollars for back child support.

633
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 3: No one knowing the case and knowing I was innocent.

634
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 5: So they felt that you should have been paying child

635
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 5: support while you were in prison making whatever it is,

636
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 5: sixteen cents an hour.

637
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 7: It's something that he did not do.

638
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 4: They proved him innocent and then took him to court

639
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 4: and said four one hundred thousand dollars in back child sport.

640
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: Since sane.

641
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 5: The good news is you've got your settlement, which gave

642
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 5: you the ability to really start.

643
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 1: Your life again.

644
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 5: And there's no amount that's adequate, I don't think, no

645
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 5: matter what you got or what any of the guys get,

646
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 5: and unfortunately a lot of guys get terribly little, you know.

647
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 5: I mean there's some states where the most you can

648
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 5: get is twenty five thousand, some states where you get nothing, Tina.

649
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 5: So ultimately this has taken now a miraculous turn. The

650
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 5: evidence gets found, that state settles, and you start a family.

651
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 5: You did so tell me about that.

652
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 4: My husband had wanted a daughter, actually wanted a child,

653
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 4: He wanted a family whenever he got out of prison.

654
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: Obviously, once I get home, had girl.

655
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 4: We named her after Kobe Bryant because he's a Lakers fan.

656
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 4: So her name's Jacobe. And she's three and about to

657
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 4: be four. She's about to be four, and she's very spunky.

658
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 4: We get asked often if she's adopted. She has a

659
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 4: Briton accent. We don't know where it came from.

660
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty odd. Fish out of water.

661
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, she's smart. She picks up on everything.

662
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: Does she speak with an English accent all the time? Yes,

663
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: all the time.

664
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 5: Yes.

665
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

666
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 5: She has to get on television right away. And I mean,

667
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 5: is that? Do people have trouble understanding her?

668
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 4: They laugh, mostly because they just can't believe what's coming

669
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 4: out of her mouth. You know, when she starts talking,

670
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 4: she drags out certain words and she just comes up

671
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 4: with things that we have no idea where she's heard

672
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 4: them from. And I just think she's going to grow

673
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 4: into it, and she's going to have this amazing little personality,

674
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 4: be spunky, And that's all I can hope for, because

675
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 4: otherwise we're going to have to move in a therapist

676
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 4: and a preacher.

677
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 5: I'm just picturing this three year old who is named

678
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 5: after Kobe Bryant, who speaks with an English accent because

679
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 5: she's beautiful.

680
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 7: To top it off, she is I don't doubt, I

681
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 7: mean on beautiful. So she just smiled and you're like, oh,

682
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 7: she's so precious.

683
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 4: And then.

684
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 7: As far as it gets.

685
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 5: That's incredible. And then you have your son, and how's

686
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 5: he dealing with all of this?

687
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 7: He wants to be an officer when he grows up.

688
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: He laid back and he'll sit back in his room

689
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: for hours and play his games and sit on the

690
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: couch and he's laid back like me.

691
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds like he sort of know where she

692
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: came from.

693
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 5: He's got the chill factor and the other one's got

694
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 5: the wow. So before we have to wrap up, it's extraordinary.

695
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 5: I mean when I met you both, I was of

696
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 5: course taken by the story. I've since met a number

697
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 5: of other axonneries who ended up in relationships with women

698
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 5: who worked in the prisons that they were in, So

699
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 5: it's not unheard of, but it is unusual. And is

700
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 5: there anything else that you'd like to share about this

701
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 5: extraordinary journey that you're both on.

702
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 4: Everybody always says do not judge book by its cover,

703
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 4: but it literally means do not judge book bytes cover.

704
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 4: Get to know somebody, anybody, just get to know them

705
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 4: a little bit, and it may turn into something a

706
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 4: whole lot more. You may end up meeting the love

707
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 4: of your life just by a simple conversation.

708
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: Cedric, I think they add to that. That's pretty good.

709
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 3: That's pretty good.

710
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 5: So I guess the message there really is, and it's

711
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 5: something I think about a lot, is really to just

712
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 5: keep your mind open.

713
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: So judge. There's too much of that.

714
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 5: Going on right now in this country. But I think

715
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 5: there's you know, there's the other side as well. I

716
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 5: think there we're in a time where there's going to

717
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 5: be a reaction and there's going to be more, more

718
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 5: understanding and more I'm hoping, more racial tolerance, more religious tolerance,

719
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 5: more open mindedness, and you're certainly a great example of that.

720
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: And then look what happens right.

721
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 7: You know, again, just keep your eyes open. You never know,

722
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 7: he may be not what you think.

723
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 4: You're mister perfect or missus perfect, because I definitely did

724
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 4: not expect my future husband to be a tall, beautiful

725
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: black man.

726
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 7: I was expecting a country boy. I got something different,

727
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 7: and that's great.

728
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 5: I'm really thrilled for both of you. You know, I

729
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 5: believe in miracles, and there's a lot of miracles in

730
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 5: this story and I wish you all the best that

731
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 5: I can't wait to hear what happens next. Don't forget

732
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 5: to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts.

733
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 1: It really helps.

734
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Ennocence Project and

735
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

736
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

737
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 5: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

738
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

739
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

740
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

741
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,239
Speaker 5: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

742
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 5: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

743
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 5: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

744
00:33:52,280 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 5: with Signal Company Number one