Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature future production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host
Speaker 1: of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,
Speaker 1: and today on the show we are talking about animal doctors.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're not real medical doctors, but medicine and healo
Speaker 1: monsters heal thyself anyways, we're talking about medical discoveries that
Speaker 1: have been drawn from the evolutionary biology of animals. We're
Speaker 1: talking about animal research, not in the sense of the
Speaker 1: incredible sacrifice of say, mice, but actual evolutionary advantages that
Speaker 1: animals have that we learn from to directly create life saving,
Speaker 1: life changing medicines. From heala monsters who are a lot
Speaker 1: sweeter than they sound, to all sorts of deadly venom,
Speaker 1: and of course the age old question how do giraffes work?
Speaker 1: Joining me today is front of the show Real Life gastor,
Speaker 1: entrologist and host of the medical podcast House a Pod
Speaker 1: Cave Hodo.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Hey, thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 2: I have to say, though I did not come prepared
Speaker 2: when you said it was going to be about animal doctors.
Speaker 2: I thought you meant like dogs and crocodiles in lab
Speaker 2: coats helping other animals, or maybe even treating humans like
Speaker 2: doctors that were animals. And this is I'm not I
Speaker 2: didn't prepare. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: I uh, it's it's all about Doggy Houser MD. No, sadly,
Speaker 1: I would. I would definitely be interested in a giraffe
Speaker 1: doctor kind of coming in with a giant stethoscope, and
Speaker 1: that would instantly put me at ease. I meant it
Speaker 1: more of that, Yeah.
Speaker 2: It would be amazing. Also the tie question, because copper
Speaker 2: bottom not only well, clearly the bottom okay, because that's
Speaker 2: a silly question to me because it's just a really
Speaker 2: long neck. But the problem is, you know those ties,
Speaker 2: they're terrible for fomites, and I don't recommend doctors wear
Speaker 2: them if you're in the clinical setting because that tie
Speaker 2: just brushes across everything. And imagine how bad that would
Speaker 2: be with a with a giraffe. It will be like
Speaker 2: a trump level tie just sweeping across the serengetti, picking
Speaker 2: up like foumtes and transmitting it to patients. A terrible idea.
Speaker 1: You think if elephants were doctors, like would they where
Speaker 1: would you put the mask?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: The face mask? Because they've got the trunk which is
Speaker 1: what I assume they're using for all the surgeries. So
Speaker 1: do they put a mask like on the tip of
Speaker 1: the trunk, which but then the tip of their trunk
Speaker 1: is basically a hand, So then do they just wash it?
Speaker 2: Wow, that is an excellent question. I'm going to have
Speaker 2: to say, they put a sterile boy, how would they breathe? Yeah? No,
Speaker 2: I don't think they can be surgeons because their breathing
Speaker 2: apparatus is also essentially their hands, actile their hand, and
Speaker 2: we don't have the technology yet for breathable sterile gloves. So,
Speaker 2: and I'm not saying because I've tried to put a
Speaker 2: glove over my head or anything, I'm not saying I've
Speaker 2: done that. Maybe I have, maybe I haven't. But you
Speaker 2: can't breathe well in those things, so I don't recommend that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm sorry elephants out there. Yeah, I know
Speaker 2: I'm being ablest elephant. I don't think you're ready to
Speaker 2: be surgeons.
Speaker 1: There's an elephant listening to this. His dreams have been crushed.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get canceled for that.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately. No, we're not talking about adorable animals who are
Speaker 1: your doctors, but we are talking about the ways in
Speaker 1: which evolutionary changes in animals, these advantages that they have
Speaker 1: actually give inspiration to human medical researchers and help them
Speaker 1: make these fantastic discoveries, either directly from the animal or
Speaker 1: inspired by the biology of the animal. So the first
Speaker 1: one we're going to talk about, I think is it's
Speaker 1: a very relevant thing because it's it's like the medicine doujour.
Speaker 1: It is about heala monsters and the way that they
Speaker 1: led to the discovery of oziepic or semaglue tide, the
Speaker 1: more generic drug.
Speaker 2: I think it's I think that's fascinating. I think it
Speaker 2: really in and of itself is a fascinating topic. But
Speaker 2: I think, particularly in this day and age, when research
Speaker 2: is so under fire and our research systems, our healthcare systems,
Speaker 2: the whole scientific infrastructure of the United States is being
Speaker 2: sort of dismantled actively, I think it's really important to
Speaker 2: take a look at something like this and be like, Hey,
Speaker 2: this very important medication that's really commonly used and people
Speaker 2: love started from some research that probably seems silly to somebody. Rightly,
Speaker 2: somebody probably saw I'm you're probably gonna talk about this,
Speaker 2: But like I think it's so important to be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is why, like this random study that we did
Speaker 2: ten twenty years ago in the helo monster saliva, you know,
Speaker 2: is actually super important because at the time people were like,
Speaker 2: we're spending five million dollars on the the sex identity
Speaker 2: of the helo monster. Yeah, you know, like we're spending
Speaker 2: twenty million on spit of a lizard. Yeah, and like
Speaker 2: someone's getting crazy about that. But this is what can
Speaker 2: happen with research, with studies.
Speaker 1: That's exactly why we're talking about this today because it
Speaker 1: is something where we have all sorts of research going on,
Speaker 1: and a lot of it like will not make the
Speaker 1: news until there is something, as I guess sensational and
Speaker 1: revolutionary is something like semaglue tide. But meanwhile, the way
Speaker 1: that we came upon this drug, it was not just
Speaker 1: like this accidental one day, you know, you're mixing chemicals
Speaker 1: in a lab and oh, drug happens. It's from years
Speaker 1: and years, decades of rece and in this particular case,
Speaker 1: it was from decades of research done on HeLa monsters,
Speaker 1: which are a type of lizard a reptile found in
Speaker 1: the southwestern United States as well as in Sonora, Mexico,
Speaker 1: and they are like in of in themselves. They're fascinating
Speaker 1: little creatures, like I love them so much. But in
Speaker 1: addition to being amazing animals, they have revolutionized human medicine,
Speaker 1: the treatment of diabetes, the obviously with o zimbic weight loss.
Speaker 1: But like you said, it's from these studies that when
Speaker 1: you first look at them, it's like, why do we
Speaker 1: care about HeLa monster venom? It's bad for you, end
Speaker 1: of study, right, helo monster venom. Don't get bitten by
Speaker 1: a HeLa monster. It's gonna hurt. Like, why would we
Speaker 1: need to study that? That's ridiculous. But in fact, these
Speaker 1: studies that seem strange, right, Like I remember these kind
Speaker 1: of anti science people were complaining about, Oh, there's all
Speaker 1: these studies done on birds song, why don't we care?
Speaker 1: Why do we care about that? Where in reality, like
Speaker 1: studies done on birdstrong and the crystallization of learning has
Speaker 1: huge implications for say like human learning. Even things like
Speaker 1: Alzheimer's are all sorts of things that are not immediately
Speaker 1: obvious from these studies that can become revolutionary and life
Speaker 1: changing and life saving for people. And so yeah, that's
Speaker 1: exactly what we're going to talk about today is all
Speaker 1: of these discoveries, these these animals that have led to discoveries,
Speaker 1: and then the people behind them, and the laboratories and
Speaker 1: the research institutes behind them. So heal monsters. It's actually
Speaker 1: if you're googling this you want a picture of them.
Speaker 1: It is spelled gila, so it looks like it should
Speaker 1: be pronounced gel a monster, but it's actually pronounced hel
Speaker 1: a monster. They're actually really beautiful lizards. They have this
Speaker 1: black and orange coloration. They have bumpy skin, this kind
Speaker 1: of like stout, chunky body. I think they're cute. I
Speaker 1: think most things are cute, but this one just has
Speaker 1: kind of like a little stoutness to it that I
Speaker 1: think makes it cute. They store a lot, do you think?
Speaker 2: Will you be honest with me, Are there any animals
Speaker 2: that you don't think are cute? You're not going to
Speaker 2: hurt their feels?
Speaker 1: I really hate silverfish. The insect the insect uh huh.
Speaker 1: I don't like cockroaches. They gross me out. Let's see
Speaker 1: what else is not cute?
Speaker 2: Anything not insect base that you don't think is cute.
Speaker 2: I'm asking for hot take here for this show. In particular,
Speaker 2: but I'm wondering what is.
Speaker 1: Not gosh, what is a not cute non insect? And
Speaker 1: also most insects are cute. That's a really good question
Speaker 1: really to me. Most insects are cute.
Speaker 2: But you see a close up of an ant's face,
Speaker 2: it's terrifying.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, that's pretty neat. But then when you zoom out,
Speaker 1: they're cute little babies. Also, if you zoom into a
Speaker 1: tartar grade, then they become cute, and then you zoom
Speaker 1: in even more are terrifying. So there's like different levels
Speaker 1: of zoom where it's like you zoom out from a
Speaker 1: tartar grade, you can't see it, so it's nothing. It's
Speaker 1: not cute, it's not ugly, it's nothing. You zoom in
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it's like a chubby little teddy bear.
Speaker 1: And then you zoom in even more and it's like
Speaker 1: a dune sandworm.
Speaker 2: There's something about that that's really I think important for life.
Speaker 2: Like life is if you zoom to the wrong level,
Speaker 2: absolutely terrifying. If you zoom in or out to like
Speaker 2: the right level, like because if you're at the level
Speaker 2: that most of us are right now in zoom, what's
Speaker 2: happening in this country is terrifying. But you know, if
Speaker 2: I zoom way way out to where we're just like
Speaker 2: a globe that's floating in space, it's not so terrifying.
Speaker 2: I zoom way way into like this cup of coffee
Speaker 2: I'm having, then it's also good, but anywhere between is terrifying.
Speaker 1: Also, focal length, it's very important for selfies. Like if
Speaker 1: you take a selfie and you're like, ah, look awful,
Speaker 1: probably a bad focal length. Don't worry about it.
Speaker 2: So right, right, yeah.
Speaker 1: It's all no, no, it's all. It all ties in together,
Speaker 1: putting that, putting that on my corkboard of sanity over there.
Speaker 1: So yeah, they are these beautiful lizards. They're bumpy, they're
Speaker 1: they kind of have all of these little bumps, all
Speaker 1: of them, these like little uh pearl like protrusions. Uh.
Speaker 1: That's actually why their Latin name Hiloderma suspect them. The
Speaker 1: Heloderma in their name is like it stands for studded skin.
Speaker 1: Suspectum is a funny part of their name, and that
Speaker 1: is because the guy who discovered these was like, I
Speaker 1: suspect they might be venomous based on their teeth, and
Speaker 1: he was right, but sometimes scientists, Yeah, just like I
Speaker 1: suspect you're you're suspicious, So your name is Hiloderma, suspect them,
Speaker 1: but yeah it's sus It's a sus lizard. Uh yeah.
Speaker 1: But those little protrusions are called osteoderms. They're actually bony deposits,
Speaker 1: so they they're like calcium deposits. They're little. They're not
Speaker 1: really made of you know, epithelial tissue. They're made out
Speaker 1: of bony deposits, which is kind of interesting. So they're
Speaker 1: lumpy and bumpy and very cute in my opinion. Now,
Speaker 1: they are rather venomous, so they have this apisomatic coloration,
Speaker 1: meaning warning coloration, So they have the bright orange, the black,
Speaker 1: and this kind of beautiful striated pattern on their backs.
Speaker 1: But the purpose of that is to warn predators like, hey,
Speaker 1: you'd better not like, I'm pretty toxic. And they are
Speaker 1: quite venomous, so they have these sharp teeth that can
Speaker 1: inject venom. They also have very foul breath apparently that
Speaker 1: goes along with it, and pioneers thought that because their
Speaker 1: breath was kind of bad, they thought that they could
Speaker 1: kill either with their breath. Just the stinkiness of their
Speaker 1: breath or also kill with their bite with the venom.
Speaker 2: Can I ask question, am I confusing the HeLa monster
Speaker 2: with the Komodo dragon in that they bite their prey
Speaker 2: and it causes an infection that later kills their prey
Speaker 2: and when they catch up to them. Is that the
Speaker 2: Komodo dragon?
Speaker 1: That is the that is about like that idea is
Speaker 1: about the Komodo dragon. The Komodo dragon does have venom,
Speaker 1: and the idea that of the infection that's largely it's
Speaker 1: not exactly accurate because what happens is that the Komodo
Speaker 1: dragon will bite its prey and it'll try to take
Speaker 1: down its prey like right then and there, but often
Speaker 1: the prey will escape and the Komodo dragon has this
Speaker 1: amazing sense of smell, so it can just track its prey.
Speaker 1: And what prey animals often do in response to being
Speaker 1: tracked like that or being injured, as they'll go into
Speaker 1: a body of water and so they will have this
Speaker 1: big wound. They'll go into the body of water because
Speaker 1: they're trying to avoid the predator. And so that's where
Speaker 1: this idea comes from. That because then once they have
Speaker 1: that big wound and they go into the water, they
Speaker 1: can get a pretty nasty infection which could kill them
Speaker 1: even if the Komodo dragon doesn't find them. But generally speaking,
Speaker 1: the komodo dragon is an injecting it with venom with
Speaker 1: these like powerful toxins. It will track it down if
Speaker 1: it runs off, just like if a hunter shoots a
Speaker 1: deer and the deer runs off, you track it down
Speaker 1: to try to find it, but usually it is simply
Speaker 1: killed by the komodo dragon. Man, I'm not bought necessarily
Speaker 1: by an infection, but you do have these cases where
Speaker 1: even if it evades the komodo dragon and it tries
Speaker 1: to go into a body of water to sort of
Speaker 1: like hide from it, it can also die from infection.
Speaker 1: So that's where that idea comes from. Heala monsters are
Speaker 1: quite a bit smaller. They're only they weigh about two pounds.
Speaker 1: They're about a foot long, so that's about eight hundred grams,
Speaker 1: and they do they are predators, but they eat very
Speaker 1: small things, so rodents, little invertebrates, other lizards, reptiles, And
Speaker 1: it's actually thought because their prey is so small and
Speaker 1: relatively helpless, that the venom is not really necessary for
Speaker 1: their hunting, and it's mostly defensive, like so that they
Speaker 1: can bite predators, anything that would try to make a
Speaker 1: meal out of them. Because they're, you know, only only
Speaker 1: two pounds, they could possibly be eaten by something. And
Speaker 1: they also eat eggs, so they kind of they're a
Speaker 1: lot more chill, I would say, than something like a
Speaker 1: Kimodo dragon. They really just like to eat and sleep.
Speaker 1: And even though technically they are dangerous for people in
Speaker 1: the sense that if you're bitten by one, you really
Speaker 1: need to get medical attention because their venom is quite powerful,
Speaker 1: they very very rarely kill people. It's something that's easily treated.
Speaker 1: It is not generally deadly. The only cases that have
Speaker 1: resulted in fatalities for healthy adult human beings is that
Speaker 1: is when someone doesn't go to get treatment, if the
Speaker 1: treatment's mismanaged or I guess there was a couple of
Speaker 1: cases where someone was like really really drunk, uh, and so,
Speaker 1: which would explain why they're getting bitten by a heal
Speaker 1: monster probably picking it like.
Speaker 2: What was and again, yeah, so yeah, that's that is
Speaker 2: very cool. That is very neat. I also would like
Speaker 2: credit for not making and in this economy joke when
Speaker 2: you brought up eggs. I would like credit for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the main the main threat, the main threat to
Speaker 1: healo monsters right now is inflation egg inflation. Uh, their bit.
Speaker 2: It's like jazz. It's the jokes you don't make, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's it's the negative space around the jokes that make
Speaker 1: it funny. The venom is apparently extremely painful though, so
Speaker 1: you don't really want to get bitten by. Some YouTuber
Speaker 1: who got himself bitten by one of these called it
Speaker 1: like it felt like lava in his veins or something.
Speaker 1: But honestly, you know, if you're a YouTuber and you
Speaker 1: intentionally seek out these bites, I don't have a huge
Speaker 1: amount of sympathy, but yeah, so it can be very painful,
Speaker 1: but it's general. These guys generally do not kill people.
Speaker 1: It's only in very rare, very sort of freak incidents
Speaker 1: that they'll kill people. And also they just don't bite.
Speaker 1: They don't they don't want to bite you unless you
Speaker 1: really mess with them because they just want to eat
Speaker 1: a lot and sleep a lot. That is their whole
Speaker 1: life plan.
Speaker 2: You're making a good argument for their adorability and their friendliness,
Speaker 2: and I'm keeping an open mind. I mean, the cookie
Speaker 2: monster is a monster. And he's adorable wit and it's
Speaker 2: in his name, So I get it. You're you're making
Speaker 2: a good argument.
Speaker 1: They are kind of cookie monsters because they they really
Speaker 1: love snacking. So juveniles are able to eat fifty percent
Speaker 1: of their body weight in one sitting, like one meal,
Speaker 1: so that's like half half of their whole body weight
Speaker 1: in one meal. Adults can eat over thirty percent of
Speaker 1: their body weight in a single meal. So they all
Speaker 1: just eat huge meals and then they don't have to
Speaker 1: eat for weeks or months at a time. They're just
Speaker 1: napping and trying to stay out of trouble in the meantime.
Speaker 1: Not bad, yeah, sunbathing, napping and eating just huge amounts
Speaker 1: just like it's it really is the life. And it's
Speaker 1: also that whole that ability of theirs to eat a
Speaker 1: huge amount and then just kind of loaf around and
Speaker 1: digest it really slowly is the whole reason that they
Speaker 1: have led to the discovery of semaglutide o zebic, the
Speaker 1: GLP one agonist. So this comes from a hormone in
Speaker 1: heala monsters, so they can slow down their digestion, their
Speaker 1: metabolism and eat just a few meals a year, and
Speaker 1: so this Also, in addition, this very slow metabolism means
Speaker 1: that their relatively long lived lizard and captivity, they can
Speaker 1: live up to about forty years, so they have this
Speaker 1: really fantastic slow digestion, slow gastric emptying. You can probably
Speaker 1: kind of see where I'm going with this if you
Speaker 1: know anything about semaglue tide, so xendon four is a
Speaker 1: peptide derived from the heel monster venom, and it can
Speaker 1: be used as a GLP one receptor agonist. Which, don't worry,
Speaker 1: I'm going to explain these things because or maybe I'll
Speaker 1: get caved up explain them because I think he probably
Speaker 1: knows about them a little more than I do.
Speaker 2: So you're doing great, Thank you.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. But I'm also lazy, So tell tell
Speaker 1: the listeners what is the What is a GLP one
Speaker 1: receptor agonist?
Speaker 2: So some of glue tide this medication that you're taught
Speaker 2: talking about these things like ozembic with go V and
Speaker 2: I think the other one is Rebel says, I forget
Speaker 2: the actual name of it, but what it is, it's
Speaker 2: a medication that mimics the action of the GLP one hormone.
Speaker 2: And what that does is it helps regulate your blood
Speaker 2: sugar levels. It reduces the appetitis you mentioned, and a
Speaker 2: big part of that is by slowing down gastric emptying,
Speaker 2: which means the way your stomach normally works is you know,
Speaker 2: it digested things, it's smashing things up, it's putting in
Speaker 2: all the right stuff to break down with acid the
Speaker 2: food that you're eating, and then it empties into your
Speaker 2: small intestine. And this is all part of a normal process.
Speaker 2: And when your stomach's empty, that helps trigger your hunger.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that go into hunger, but
Speaker 2: that's one of them. And then if you have slow emptying,
Speaker 2: if things are just slow down in your gut, that
Speaker 2: can be a problem for some people. But it's also
Speaker 2: a way to reduce people's appetites and what's happening here.
Speaker 2: So it's actually pretty effective for helping with weight loss,
Speaker 2: it's pretty effective for controlling blood sugar. And now you know,
Speaker 2: we give it to patients as weekly injections. This other
Speaker 2: one as a tablets roybelsis but I don't it's not
Speaker 2: quite as common yet, So it's actually we're probably gonna
Speaker 2: find this isn't aside, but I think over the coming
Speaker 2: years We're probably gonna find more uses for it. I mean,
Speaker 2: there's people who are studying its use for alcohol cravings
Speaker 2: and alcohol use disorder, so we might find other things
Speaker 2: that go along with it. But the major thing it's
Speaker 2: gonna do, as you mentioned with humans here, is in
Speaker 2: terms of weight loss, to slow down the way your
Speaker 2: gut moves things through. So because of that, you can
Speaker 2: also get side effects from it. There are people who
Speaker 2: are gonna get nausea, vomiting, might even get like constantpation
Speaker 2: or even diarrhea or some alternation of the two. There's
Speaker 2: some serious risks that can happen. It's pretty rare, but
Speaker 2: problems with the thyroid, pancreatitis or inflammation of your pink risk.
Speaker 2: I've seen gall bladders that have had stones before they
Speaker 2: started the medication become inflamed because of the stones because
Speaker 2: things aren't moving the way they should. There's like a
Speaker 2: little bit more chance of infection there. So there's some
Speaker 2: serious risk too with these medications. But that is the
Speaker 2: basic overview of semiglue tides and what they're doing for
Speaker 2: you here in these medications.
Speaker 1: Right, And it's like any medication, right, you kind of
Speaker 1: have to weigh the potential benefits with the risks, right,
Speaker 1: like if you that's right, yeah, diabetes, and you need
Speaker 1: it to regulate your blood sugar. The risks of the
Speaker 1: medication may be outweighed by the benefits you get, or
Speaker 1: you know, if you really really need help with weight loss,
Speaker 1: and like nothing else has worked, and it's affecting your
Speaker 1: health as long as you tolerate it well, as long
Speaker 1: as the side effects are not so grave, like it
Speaker 1: might be something you want to take. But and it's
Speaker 1: also very individual, right, like some people will respond better
Speaker 1: to it than others. It's it's not like a mirror.
Speaker 1: There's not like a miracle pill that makes everyone better.
Speaker 2: But it's that's exactly right. And I think that's a
Speaker 2: really great point, is that every it has to be
Speaker 2: tailored for the person, and it's not for everybody, and
Speaker 2: there should always be with any medication. There should be
Speaker 2: some risk and benefit analysis that somebody is doing. And
Speaker 2: everything has some risk, there's no doubt. So and it's
Speaker 2: it's not perfect, but you know it is. It does
Speaker 2: seem to be helpful, and so far all the studies
Speaker 2: show that works, and we see it in plenty of patients,
Speaker 2: and you see it and I'm sure everyone knows somebody
Speaker 2: at this point who has lost weight on one of
Speaker 2: these medications, so that that benefit in the long run
Speaker 2: in terms of their health probably outweighs the risks for
Speaker 2: most people, but not everyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it's for sure an individual thing. I
Speaker 1: also have to emphasize, like, please don't find a heal
Speaker 1: a monster and like have it bite you. That will
Speaker 1: not work. It will not it won't be the same.
Speaker 1: I know it's tempting because of drug prices.
Speaker 2: In the US so much cheaper.
Speaker 1: Our terrible healthcare system, and it seems like it might
Speaker 1: seem like a good time, a good idea, especially if
Speaker 1: you're really drunk. But don't do that. The heal a
Speaker 1: monster doesn't want to be involved in that. And also
Speaker 1: it will just hurt a lot and cause.
Speaker 2: You problems only a matter of time, as funny as
Speaker 2: it sounds, but before like the raw milk community gets
Speaker 2: to like fresh helo, oh my.
Speaker 1: God, oh no, oh no, no, don't do it. Don't
Speaker 1: do it, guys, please don't. I I yeah, just out
Speaker 1: there milk and HeLa monsters. Anyways, another reason I wanted
Speaker 1: to bring up the healo monsters is that they there
Speaker 1: is some new research, not in terms of what the
Speaker 1: healo monsters can do for us, which is actually currently ongoing.
Speaker 1: There's all sorts of things that they're looking into heal
Speaker 1: a monster venom for, including things like Alzheimer's. So just
Speaker 1: it's just, you know, venom has so many interesting properties.
Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk about this some more at the
Speaker 1: end of the show, but there's so many different things
Speaker 1: that that these peptides that can be found in the
Speaker 1: vidim it could offer potential treatments for. And it's all
Speaker 1: this research that's happening. But there's also now some research
Speaker 1: going on in order to help the heala monsters themselves,
Speaker 1: because they are living creatures and they too are vulnerable
Speaker 1: to disease. Particularly there is this fungal parasite called cryptosporidium.
Speaker 1: It's not the kind of crypto you want to invest in.
Speaker 1: It's uh, you know, uh it is it is a
Speaker 1: kind of of fungus that can infect the HeLa monster
Speaker 1: digestive system, which is really bad for them because, like
Speaker 1: we talked about, their whole adaptation is like having this
Speaker 1: incredible digestion digestive system that works really slowly metabolizes, but
Speaker 1: it allows them to eat not that much, and so
Speaker 1: a helo monster might eat a huge meal. Digestion is
Speaker 1: going really slowly. But then if this fungal parasite takes
Speaker 1: hold of their digestion, it messes up this very delicate
Speaker 1: balance that the HeLa monster has. And so this, you know,
Speaker 1: threatens not only individuals, but if we see this continue, right, like,
Speaker 1: if infections become more common, could threaten entire populations. And
Speaker 1: fungi are as much as I am interested in fung
Speaker 1: guy in terms of evolutionary biology because they're really fascinating,
Speaker 1: they can be really devastating. It, particularly for reptiles and
Speaker 1: amphibians and specifically frogs seem to suffer the mouse from
Speaker 1: certain types of fungal infections. Like, there are species that
Speaker 1: get wiped out by fungal infections because they have so
Speaker 1: little defense against it. They're very vulnerable to it and
Speaker 1: it can spread so quickly. So sort of the last
Speaker 1: of a style apocalypses are happening all the time, just
Speaker 1: to frog species you've never heard of.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cryptospridium is a microscopic parasite that's really important for
Speaker 2: humans as well. I should mention it can cause severe diarrhea.
Speaker 2: Watery diarrhea can cause logi symptoms. It's transmitted through the
Speaker 2: fecal oral route, which is another fantastic reason again to
Speaker 2: wash your hands, and it is found in the US
Speaker 2: and throughout the rest of the world too, but it
Speaker 2: is a real problem here, particularly if someone has some
Speaker 2: immunal compromise. So it's one of these causes of severe
Speaker 2: diarrhea in patients with immuo compromise that we check for.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting that we're seeing it cause problems in
Speaker 2: these animals as well, because maybe it will help us
Speaker 2: if we research them figure out how to treat it
Speaker 2: for us. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. This is a major theme of the show, which
Speaker 1: is that we are not separate from other animals, both
Speaker 1: in terms of the ways in which we directly impact
Speaker 1: each other, the way like our sort of when we
Speaker 1: live somewhere, our human habitations will directly influence animal behaviors
Speaker 1: and that will come back to us. But also on
Speaker 1: you know, the microscopic level, right, like diseases and it's
Speaker 1: not just like zoonoses that like jump from animals to
Speaker 1: people or back and forth, but just diseases that affect
Speaker 1: both humans and animals that when we understand them better
Speaker 1: in animals or even understand them better in people. We
Speaker 1: can learn how to treat treat the issue at this
Speaker 1: more fundamental level, which like helps everything.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Ecosystems generally work because there are a lot of uh
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of different members of that ecosystem. Right,
Speaker 1: So humans are part of an ecosystem, even though we
Speaker 1: like to pretend that we're not. Right, we kind of
Speaker 1: pave over all the ecosystms, like we don't need that.
Speaker 1: All we need is like asphalt and a nice, nice Honda,
Speaker 1: and we're good. But like it's we really are part
Speaker 1: of an ecosystem, and like it is really interesting when
Speaker 1: we see that at this sort of more like scientific
Speaker 1: level where this this it's it's kind of like an
Speaker 1: information ecosystem, right, where information that animals have in their
Speaker 1: in their genome from millions of years of evolution, we
Speaker 1: can look at as humans and then find this like
Speaker 1: huge library of information of peptides, of diseases and how
Speaker 1: they respond in animals, then use that for our own medicine,
Speaker 1: in our own health, and also for the health of
Speaker 1: the environment, which again directly feeds back into our own
Speaker 1: quality of life. It's it's it's not separate at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I agree. I mean, in just to clarify Cryptospurtium,
Speaker 2: I don't believe as a fungus. I believe it's a
Speaker 2: protozoan parasite, but the way it's infecting, the way it's
Speaker 2: acting in these in the people, and the and the
Speaker 2: way it acts it's very similar in terms of the
Speaker 2: immio compromise to fungus as well. So yeah, it is
Speaker 2: knowing about them is I think it's very cool that
Speaker 2: there's so many connections between studying animals and us. There's
Speaker 2: limitations obviously between like what happens in animal and how
Speaker 2: that translates to what happens to us and how our
Speaker 2: bodies adjust, but overall, more similarities than we would expect
Speaker 2: and more than differences. And it's a great place to
Speaker 2: start studies because you don't want to have to study
Speaker 2: cryptosporidium in humans if you can help it. I mean,
Speaker 2: you're going to have to at some point for treatments.
Speaker 2: But the more we can learn about these things from
Speaker 2: other research that's out there in the animal world, the
Speaker 2: better it will be for scientists focusing on humans.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and yes, thank you so much. For the clarification,
Speaker 1: you're actually, you're absolutely right. I was confusing it. There's
Speaker 1: something called the chitrid fungus and that's the one that
Speaker 1: affects a lot of amphibians and reptiles, so that one's
Speaker 1: a fungus. But you're right, cryptospor is a microbe. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: I think it's single celled, right, right.
Speaker 1: They're they're kind of they's similar kind of in how
Speaker 1: they they operate. But you're right, distinct good and good distinction.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and so the bye. There's this recent article
Speaker 1: in The New York Times by Emily Anthees, and it's
Speaker 1: about this, like, uh, these researchers struggles to find sort
Speaker 1: of treatments for helo monsters who are infected with Cryptosporidium. Uh.
Speaker 1: There is a particular patient being study named Pebbles. She's
Speaker 1: a helo monster being treated at the Creature Conservancy in
Speaker 1: ann Arbor Mission. She's called Pebbles because she has little
Speaker 1: the characteristic bumps on her skin that and they're very
Speaker 1: like they're because they're bony deposits. They're very rough. They feel,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of bony and rough, and it's it's
Speaker 1: I've never pet a helo monster, and I really want
Speaker 1: to because I feel like that would be very tactile,
Speaker 1: the satisfying to pet.
Speaker 2: You know, a killer name, killer name for any sort
Speaker 2: of lizard. I absolutely love it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she apparently tolerates being cradled by people pretty well,
Speaker 1: just like holding her and she's like, well, all right,
Speaker 1: this is my life now, because they're very They're really
Speaker 1: not very they're very chill lizards, right like, unless you're
Speaker 1: a small prey item or they think that you're a
Speaker 1: threat to them, they're they're very chill. And so this
Speaker 1: University of Michigan pharmaceutical chemist Tim Sernak, I hope I'm
Speaker 1: pronouncing that right, is looking into potential treatments for pebbles specifically,
Speaker 1: but also the hope is that by trying to treat pebbles,
Speaker 1: he'll be able to find treatments for other heel monsters,
Speaker 1: other populations, and then maybe also for humans. Because he
Speaker 1: actually started out as a medical researcher for human diseases,
Speaker 1: right like, looking into pharmaceuticals for people, and then his
Speaker 1: focus shifted towards animals because he's he was thinking like, look,
Speaker 1: we get so much from these these animals from our
Speaker 1: environment in terms of medical research. I'm worried now about
Speaker 1: losing that and losing these precious resources not just because
Speaker 1: of what they provide us, but just because they're also
Speaker 1: because they're wonderful. And so he's kind of shifted his
Speaker 1: focus to trying to come up with ways to treat
Speaker 1: these diseases in animals, not on a sort of like
Speaker 1: specific like veterinarian level, but on a population level, right, Like, so,
Speaker 1: if you have a population of helo monsters being threatened
Speaker 1: right by cryptosporidium, how do you treat that? How do
Speaker 1: you prevent say extinction or near extinctions from these diseases
Speaker 1: in these animals that are so important for the environment
Speaker 1: and for medicine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, oh that's really neat. That's really cool.
Speaker 1: I really love that because it's like, you know, the
Speaker 1: the idea that we can exploit animals right for their
Speaker 1: this like information that they have like their in their
Speaker 1: living tissue, but then we can also use that information
Speaker 1: then to like turn around and be like, all right,
Speaker 1: helo monsters, you've greatly improved our lives and our understanding
Speaker 1: of medicine. Let's make sure that you don't die out.
Speaker 1: That would It's just it's something that to me seems
Speaker 1: really obvious, like this is an important thing. But it's
Speaker 1: also like, again, what we were kind of talking about
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the show. You could imagine someone
Speaker 1: who's trying to cut funding to research going like why
Speaker 1: do we need to treat lizards? Like why do we
Speaker 1: care about that? Who cares?
Speaker 2: Right? And also I would even go in further to
Speaker 2: be like someone might say, Okay, we learned everything we
Speaker 2: need to know about the Helo monster, but that's clearly
Speaker 2: not true either, Like I mean, there's going to be
Speaker 2: more discoveries that I mean, if we're looking at this
Speaker 2: from a completely selfish, non altruistic sort of perspective, it's
Speaker 2: still a good idea. Yes, to keep them alive, keep
Speaker 2: them around, study them. I mean, that's not the reason
Speaker 2: we should do it. We should do it just because,
Speaker 2: like we're not monsters destroying the planet. But you know,
Speaker 2: if you need to be a little bit more granular
Speaker 2: about it, they can there. Look what we've already learned
Speaker 2: in what little time we've been studying them. Give us
Speaker 2: more time. Maybe there's something else that will cure other
Speaker 2: diseases in this animal that we need to keep an
Speaker 2: eye on. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean I feel like the listeners to the
Speaker 1: show are very sort of self selecting. So they're all
Speaker 1: animal lovers, they all want good things for animals just
Speaker 1: because they think animals are cool. I'm assuming, and so
Speaker 1: I feel like I don't need to necessarily convince y'all
Speaker 1: out there to care about animals. But I feel like
Speaker 1: when you're talking to people, right, friends, family, you're senators,
Speaker 1: I don't know who are, are kind of not understanding
Speaker 1: why animals are so important and saying something like, well,
Speaker 1: because they're really cool and it's amazing to have a
Speaker 1: diversity of animals around, and that doesn't reach them. Then
Speaker 1: saying like, look, this animal could potentially lead to a
Speaker 1: cure for Alzheimer's and we just don't know it yet.
Speaker 1: It's is It is something where sometimes you do, especially
Speaker 1: for something like like policymakers or people who just are
Speaker 1: not that curious about animals and about science in general,
Speaker 1: that you have to like tell them, look like you
Speaker 1: will directly benefit from this animal. It's not just about
Speaker 1: the curiosity of it, about the sort of fascinating discoveries.
Speaker 1: Even though a lot of people, I think, especially listeners
Speaker 1: of the show, would agree that is valuable in of
Speaker 1: in itself. It doesn't have to lead to something. But yeah,
Speaker 1: like in so many cases, like I always think about
Speaker 1: like things that we lose in terms of like there's
Speaker 1: so many species we lose that we just don't know
Speaker 1: what they could have helped us with. In terms of discoveries,
Speaker 1: I think like the most famous one is the gastric
Speaker 1: brooding frog. I don't know if that's something that is
Speaker 1: well known among gaster enterology.
Speaker 2: You think I would know about it, Well, I'll tell
Speaker 2: you now.
Speaker 1: It's it is this little frog that did unfortunately go extinct,
Speaker 1: but it had this really unique brooding method. It would
Speaker 1: ingest its own babies, and the little babies would like
Speaker 1: go from eggs to tadpoles to like a little frog
Speaker 1: that's all inside of its gut, inside of its stomach,
Speaker 1: and it did the it would be able to do
Speaker 1: this without you know, digesting its own babies. So and
Speaker 1: then once the baby was big enough, it would come
Speaker 1: out of the gastric brooding frog's mouth. So basically it
Speaker 1: would like give birth from its stomach out of its mouth.
Speaker 1: It's essentially like when you're a kid and you first
Speaker 1: learn about pregnancy and babies, how you think babies are made,
Speaker 1: Like they grow them in their stomachs and their tummies
Speaker 1: and then like throw them up or something like this
Speaker 1: frog would literally do that, and it's very it's really
Speaker 1: sad that they when extinct, mostly due to habitat loss.
Speaker 2: But uh, I mean, just off the top of my head,
Speaker 2: I could think of three important like research things you
Speaker 2: could do to help us learn about gastric lining, about
Speaker 2: gastric cultures, about even like tumor growth in the stomach.
Speaker 2: There's so much there and that's that's fascinating. Ye I'm
Speaker 2: so bummed that I'm just learning about this thing now
Speaker 2: that it's already gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there is some hope that it could
Speaker 1: be potentially brought back, like by there's some samples of it,
Speaker 1: like so I think they have some like samples of
Speaker 1: the gas or brooding frog. There's this idea of like
Speaker 1: de extincting them by introducing that DNA to close relatives
Speaker 1: of it and see if they can bring it back.
Speaker 2: So there's some.
Speaker 1: Potential hope in the future. But like you said, like
Speaker 1: the loss of understanding of like how they manage to
Speaker 1: have their gut not like not burned through these very
Speaker 1: tender little froglets. Would mean a lot in terms of
Speaker 1: how to prevent your stomachs from say like burning through
Speaker 1: the lining of your stomach because your stomachs are full
Speaker 1: of acid. It's important for digestion. But then when that acid,
Speaker 1: you know, burns your own gut lining, like, then you
Speaker 1: get ulcers. And so yeah, there's so much potential research
Speaker 1: that could have happened that was lost.
Speaker 2: That's right, as you learned when you came onto the
Speaker 2: House of Pod and we discussed with an expert in
Speaker 2: peptic ulcer disease. There's so many factors that go into
Speaker 2: the creation of these ulcers. It's not really so much
Speaker 2: that there's more acid, but it's the lining of the
Speaker 2: stomach and how it's protected. And that is exactly the
Speaker 2: kind of thing that we still have a lot to
Speaker 2: learn about. Yeah, and like having something else out there
Speaker 2: to look at would have been awesome, And it is
Speaker 2: funny that we have to do this, but we do. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like from my perspective, I'm constantly trying to explain to
Speaker 2: people why it's important for us as the United States
Speaker 2: to care about infectious disease elsewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really important, but they're in another country, How
Speaker 1: could that ever possibly affect us? Like, first of all gross,
Speaker 1: Second of all planes, you guys, airplanes?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And third gross again third just gross, like yeah, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't like, I don't care about other people unless
Speaker 1: I'm personally affected or they're in my own country. Very gross.
Speaker 1: But also yes, airplanes, god, airplanes yeah, airplanes also yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I also feel personally And I encourage you
Speaker 1: to check out Kevey's show if you If you like
Speaker 1: this show, you will definitely like his podcast. I was
Speaker 1: on one about gird. I learned so much and it
Speaker 1: was for me a very cool personal experience because because
Speaker 1: I I have gourd and I learned so much, And
Speaker 1: I also feel personally victimized by the gastric brooding frog
Speaker 1: going extinct because I feel like my life would be
Speaker 1: tangibly better with this animal around. And probably everyone who
Speaker 1: has gourd or any gas reflux.
Speaker 2: Ah mean, what a cool what a cool animal?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And thank you for those kind of works.
Speaker 1: Then, oh, you're very welcome. They're well deserved. We're gonna
Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we're gonna talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about giraffes and how learning more about them
Speaker 1: could prevent anything from deep vein thrombosis to stroke. Uh,
Speaker 1: so we do. We have talked about a lot of
Speaker 1: lesser known animals, and I do like to highlight the
Speaker 1: less charismatic animals. That's what they're called, even though I
Speaker 1: think they're of course brimming with charisma. But like, it's
Speaker 1: actually really interesting that there are so many animals that
Speaker 1: are very famous, that are sort of these well known
Speaker 1: animals that we think we know everything about, but they
Speaker 1: also offer us a lot of information on medicine just
Speaker 1: by looking at their evolutionary adaptation. So giraffes are something
Speaker 1: of a evolutionary marvel because they're so weird. We're used
Speaker 1: to seeing them because we learn about them since we're
Speaker 1: you know, like since we're kids. We kind of see like, hey,
Speaker 1: that's a giraffe, and that's what it looks like. But
Speaker 1: if you were an alien and you looked at a giraffe,
Speaker 1: you would be stunned because it doesn't make any sense
Speaker 1: how this animal is alive and doesn't just pass out
Speaker 1: every time it takes a step, because it's got this
Speaker 1: enormous neck, of course, these really long legs and for
Speaker 1: blood to pump through its body. For it to be
Speaker 1: able to move without like passing out every time it
Speaker 1: tries to take a drink is kind of a genius thing.
Speaker 1: That's all happening inside of its circulatory system.
Speaker 2: Absolutely utely. I think about this not too infrequently because
Speaker 2: my kids love, you know, looking at animal specials and
Speaker 2: will watch like these the animals and the Serengetti or
Speaker 2: something like that, and you see them walking around, and
Speaker 2: I am fascinated by dirafts. I think they're awesome. But
Speaker 2: you're you're totally right. If you were to take a
Speaker 2: human with a neck that long, yeah, I mean so
Speaker 2: many reasons this doesn't make sense. But the way our valves,
Speaker 2: in our blood vessels work, it would not be able
Speaker 2: to provide enough blood to the head. And when you
Speaker 2: actually bent all the way over all that blood going
Speaker 2: to the head would probably make you pass out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it would be you wouldn't be able to tolerate it.
Speaker 2: The And I don't know the details, but I'm assuming
Speaker 2: that their vasculature, the blood vessels are First of all,
Speaker 2: their heart must be pumping like incredibly powerfully, and then
Speaker 2: there must be something very special about their blood vessels
Speaker 2: that allow the blood not only to fall back down
Speaker 2: those gravity dependent blood vessels, but somehow work their way
Speaker 2: up constantly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're exactly right about that. So giraffes are
Speaker 1: like they are, so they're not only so weird just
Speaker 1: like when you look at them, but like their entire
Speaker 1: bodies are created to solve problems that they've made for
Speaker 1: themselves by being so tall. It's really funny because it's like, well, why, guys,
Speaker 1: why do you have to be so tall? Why did
Speaker 1: you go through all this because you've created so many
Speaker 1: problems for yourself. But of course the answer is they
Speaker 1: inhabit this niche by being able to reach vegetation and
Speaker 1: then also the amazing sort of surveillance skills they have
Speaker 1: by being so tall. So whenever there's an evolutionary niche
Speaker 1: and an animal can exploit it and they can come
Speaker 1: up with solutions to solve the mechanical problems of their
Speaker 1: weird bodies, it'll happen, which is pretty amazing. And when
Speaker 1: I say they solve it, of course this is done
Speaker 1: through many iterations of natural selection. So, Kevin, you're absolutely
Speaker 1: right about the heart. They have a twenty five pound heart,
Speaker 1: so that's eleven kilograms. Wow, about how much does it
Speaker 1: I forgot, like about how much does a human heart weigh.
Speaker 1: It's like about a pound, right, It's not very heavy,
Speaker 1: I would say.
Speaker 2: I mean depending on the age and like how large
Speaker 2: and if it's an American heart with obesity and just
Speaker 2: a heart failure, I probably around two pounds right right
Speaker 2: at most?
Speaker 1: Yeah, at most, So it's like twenty five times around
Speaker 1: twenty five times as big as like a human heart. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it a giraffe has twice the amount of blood
Speaker 1: pressure as a healthy human. So it is just it
Speaker 1: it's like I'm trying to think of how far this
Speaker 1: heart could squirt blood, but it would be like a
Speaker 1: super soaker shooting blood. It's it's incredible. So yes, it
Speaker 1: has incredible like a an incredibly high blood pressure. And
Speaker 1: if a human had that high blood pressure, you'd be
Speaker 1: getting strokes, you'd be getting deep vein, thrombosis, edema, all
Speaker 1: these problems, heart attacks, things that come from high blood pressure,
Speaker 1: and the giraffes do not in general, And so there's
Speaker 1: a big question, Okay, what's going on? How is the
Speaker 1: giraffe not just getting all of these terrible effects from
Speaker 1: such a high blood pressure? And then also they're freakishly
Speaker 1: designed bodies.
Speaker 2: Right, No, that's fascinating to me. And to be clear
Speaker 2: about the heart for the humans, like you don't want
Speaker 2: it to be that big, you want the heart to
Speaker 2: be like under a pound, I would say, is, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's been a long time since I've held a human
Speaker 2: heart in my hands. But you probably don't want to.
Speaker 1: Worry cause people have it by the way, I would
Speaker 1: just say, like, don't be apologetic about it, like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's been a while since I've held a human heart
Speaker 1: in my hands. It's like for most of us, right,
Speaker 1: it's been never.
Speaker 2: And I should clarify from like medical skies studying the body,
Speaker 2: not like from extracurricular activities.
Speaker 1: Me too, for sure, yes, wink wink, sh sure.
Speaker 2: And if the heart were to be that powerful in
Speaker 2: a huge so that's fascinating because if our problem is
Speaker 2: almost the opposite, where it's like we don't want our
Speaker 2: hearts that that big. You don't want to have to
Speaker 2: be pumping that hard, you don't want your blood pressure
Speaker 2: to be that high, it is fascinating to see. You
Speaker 2: know what, when we want to really measure the pressure,
Speaker 2: one of the best ways to do that is you
Speaker 2: put uh an ivy into the arterial flow where the
Speaker 2: blood's pumping from the heart. It's it's not fun for
Speaker 2: the patient, but it's tricky for us. But sometimes you
Speaker 2: just have to do it and really tense situations in
Speaker 2: ICU cases when you really need to know the blood pressure.
Speaker 2: And I would be fascinated to see if they've done
Speaker 2: that in giraffes to see how. I don't know how,
Speaker 2: Like if there's no las that you can do this,
Speaker 2: you have to all be in the field, I guess, right,
Speaker 2: because what laboratories can you do this in a giraffe.
Speaker 2: There's not big enough. But like I would be really
Speaker 2: interested to see what that blood pressure is when they
Speaker 2: like look at the arterial blood flow of a giraffe.
Speaker 2: Is there anything that you saw that talks about like
Speaker 2: what their blood pressure would be, I mean recorded as
Speaker 2: I mean, I.
Speaker 1: Think their blood pressure is so it's like twice that
Speaker 1: of the typical blood pressure of a human. Let me
Speaker 1: see I think there was a number, and I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean I would assume a lot of this information
Speaker 1: is is based on UH based on studies that have
Speaker 1: been done in zoo giraffes. So like you have girafts
Speaker 1: in a zoo. While right, the kind of like the
Speaker 1: facilities that you do to study a giraffe, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's like say, I know that zoo
Speaker 1: MRIs are enormous, like they have giant Wow. I don't
Speaker 1: know if a giraffe could fit in one, but I.
Speaker 2: Would love to see the medical facilities in a zoo.
Speaker 2: That would be amazing.
Speaker 1: They're like they have very like special equipment, like giant scales,
Speaker 1: things that are for these enormous animals to be able
Speaker 1: to study them. So they may have, uh, they may
Speaker 1: have something I think that, yeah, for they may be
Speaker 1: able to have some kind of method of measuring giraffes
Speaker 1: blood pressure. I don't know if it's the the uh
Speaker 1: what you had mentioned for people, but they had uh
Speaker 1: I seen they sit. Yeah, this this article says it
Speaker 1: like blood pressure at the heart of about two twenty
Speaker 1: over one eighty uh and then yeah, blood pressure at
Speaker 1: the brain of about one ten over seventy, so twice
Speaker 1: of that of a human, right exactly, So about twice
Speaker 1: is what is healthy for a person. And yet they're fine.
Speaker 1: They don't they don't. They also don't have like EDMA
Speaker 1: in their legs, like these long legs where all this
Speaker 1: blood should be pooling and being forced down into because
Speaker 1: of gravity, because of that high blood pressure. So the
Speaker 1: first problem a giraffe faces is drinking water. It has
Speaker 1: to bend its like it can eat all of it,
Speaker 1: eat all it wants without ever lowering its head. Because
Speaker 1: it's feeding from acacia trees, it's getting leaves and foliage.
Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily have to bend its head to eat,
Speaker 1: but it has to bend its head to drink. And
Speaker 1: so when it lowers its head to drink, if you've
Speaker 1: ever seen it, like it has to get in position.
Speaker 1: It kind of splays its leg out and it's like,
Speaker 1: all right, everyone, I'm about to drink some water, you know,
Speaker 1: hold my hold my giraffe beer. And so what happens
Speaker 1: is so like you said, like if it lowers its head,
Speaker 1: it should just if it was a human right shaped
Speaker 1: like a giraffe, all of our blood would just rush
Speaker 1: really quickly into our head, which would be bad. It
Speaker 1: could like potentially cause like a brain hemorrhage right from
Speaker 1: that like sudden increase in pressure. But this doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: So they have this complex cluster of arteries and veins. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't know how this word is pronounced like among
Speaker 1: medical professionals in America, but because I think it's like
Speaker 1: a Italian word, I'm going to pronounce it as an
Speaker 1: Italian word. It's called a rete mirabile, which is like
Speaker 1: it's like this sort of complex bundle of blood vessels
Speaker 1: of arteries that form that's kind of like net and
Speaker 1: it's in a lot of animals. It's used for things
Speaker 1: like heat exchange to keep parts of their body warm.
Speaker 1: In birds, it can be used to keep their legs
Speaker 1: warm in the winter. So there's all sorts of interesting
Speaker 1: ways that like these complex networks of like heat exchange
Speaker 1: and of counter like flow in one direction flow in
Speaker 1: another direction that this can be used for. In it's
Speaker 1: used as kind of like a traffic jam for the blood,
Speaker 1: like a way to kind of like counteract all the
Speaker 1: blood flowing down, so it slows the blood so it
Speaker 1: goes to their head more slowly, and then it also
Speaker 1: they also have a valve in its jugular vein to
Speaker 1: prevent the blood from all rushing down from its jugular
Speaker 1: into its head, and so that slows and interrupts the
Speaker 1: blood going down to its head. Now then when it
Speaker 1: lifts its head up, it has another problem, which is
Speaker 1: that all that blood rushing back down should make it faint,
Speaker 1: and then you just have every time it would take
Speaker 1: a drink, it would just pass out. This doesn't happen
Speaker 1: because its blood vessels constrict as it's lifting its head
Speaker 1: up and force the blood upwards. So so like they
Speaker 1: go down, these blood vessels are able to sort of
Speaker 1: slow down the blood have this like counter pressure and
Speaker 1: a valve that keeps it from all rushing into its head.
Speaker 1: Then it lifts its head up and then the blood
Speaker 1: the blood vessels like squeeze that blood back up into
Speaker 1: the head so it doesn't pass out, and they get
Speaker 1: their little drink of water and go on their merry way.
Speaker 2: Wow, it's so cool. I mean rete mirabelee. It's like,
Speaker 2: first of all, it's a very elegant sounding word, right,
Speaker 2: and that I mean that sounds like the correct pronunciation
Speaker 2: to be. I know, I'm not familiar with this.
Speaker 1: I can crinch it up if anyone wants. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Or read mirrorbile in America. So it is, Uh, it's
Speaker 2: a very elegant word for a very elegant system. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just really nice that it works out so like,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so well designed. I mean it's weirdly designed,
Speaker 2: and you're almost like why did it have to be
Speaker 2: this way? I mean, aren't there other ways to survive?
Speaker 2: But that's not quite how you know, evolution works.
Speaker 1: And it's just really marvelous. And I think, like what
Speaker 1: it means is marvelous net. So like in in Italian
Speaker 1: it means marvelous net. Yeah, like a marvelous net of
Speaker 1: blood vessels and arteries that like create this sort of
Speaker 1: complex Like it's like it's it's sort of like if
Speaker 1: you're an urban planner and you're trying to either slow
Speaker 1: or speed up traffic, right, you create these these roads
Speaker 1: and stuff, and so it's like that, but on in
Speaker 1: the circulatory system to slow down or speed up blood
Speaker 1: flow when you need it.
Speaker 2: So, is this only found in mammals or is this
Speaker 2: also found in.
Speaker 1: Also found in birds? So yeah, there are other other
Speaker 1: animals not just mammals. So birds have it keeping their
Speaker 1: legs warm. I would assume that it could also be
Speaker 1: found in reptiles. I don't I do not know about fish,
Speaker 1: sorry fish. But yeah, so it has this amazing ability
Speaker 1: to prevent itself from passing out or having blood just
Speaker 1: like explode its head. So all of these things are
Speaker 1: really and you'd think that we would know everything about
Speaker 1: how a giraffe like has these adaptations, but you know,
Speaker 1: at this point, like being able to continue to study
Speaker 1: giraffes to understand how they work could have uh there
Speaker 1: could be discoveries made in terms of like things like
Speaker 1: how to uh like how to cope with like high
Speaker 1: blood pressure in human beings, like what are the kinds
Speaker 1: of things that high blood pressure could affect? Or like, say,
Speaker 1: I mean one big thing is I know that with
Speaker 1: pots pots it's this relatively poorly understood issue where some
Speaker 1: people like have this like when they stand up, they
Speaker 1: have this sudden shift in their blood pressure that essentially
Speaker 1: can cause fainting or make them feel faint. And it's
Speaker 1: just like it's a difficulty for their circulatory system to
Speaker 1: change to sort of change their posterior position, right like
Speaker 1: the like the witch, like whether they're lying down or
Speaker 1: standing up. And understanding giraffes better might help also understand
Speaker 1: these issues in people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I mean, you know, again trying to find
Speaker 2: ways to appeal to humans that may not care that
Speaker 2: much outside of it, But like, for example, varicose veins
Speaker 2: in humans, maybe there's something about this anatomy, studying diraft
Speaker 2: anatomy that might help us in regards to finding new
Speaker 2: treatments or surgical things we can do for varicos veins
Speaker 2: that people may not like or may find unsightly on
Speaker 2: their bodies. So, I mean, there's so much here in
Speaker 2: terms of studying the vascular system that would be neat
Speaker 2: to know, and there is a very real possibility of
Speaker 2: it having some benefit to us. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In fact, already, by understanding giraffes, we have, you know,
Speaker 1: an understanding of how to have treatments for people, so
Speaker 1: like giraffes in order like the other issue that I mentioned,
Speaker 1: the big one, which would be like why is all
Speaker 1: the blood not pulling in their legs? That one's really
Speaker 1: interesting because that's not just down to sort of their
Speaker 1: vascular system. They have essentially compression stockings on their legs.
Speaker 1: So they have this thick, tight skin on their legs
Speaker 1: that acts exactly as compression stockings act in human beings.
Speaker 1: So it you know, pushes, like physically pushes squeezes on
Speaker 1: their legs, which forces the blood from pulling into their extremities,
Speaker 1: and it's thought that that literally just their skin, the
Speaker 1: tightness of their skin helps prevent things like edema, deep
Speaker 1: vein thrombosis, things that should be a problem for these
Speaker 1: giraffes but simply aren't.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's that is stuff that we use every
Speaker 2: day in the hospital and every day in outpatient medicine,
Speaker 2: things to help people, you know, prevent these these blood
Speaker 2: cloths performing. It's a serious problem, becoming more and more
Speaker 2: of an issue we can see as our patients get
Speaker 2: older and more sedentary.
Speaker 1: Yeah so yeah, yeah, it would mean I feel like
Speaker 1: we should have a branding thing where with compression stockings,
Speaker 1: like make them more fun and more fashionable, so like
Speaker 1: putting maybe a giraffe print on them of like you know,
Speaker 1: the sort of draft prints, like their their their skin
Speaker 1: print as if you're wearing you know, giraffe stockings, like
Speaker 1: make make them fashion forward so that you're both benefiting
Speaker 1: from the medical device. But it's also like it's also
Speaker 1: che homage to exactly a chic homage to the giraffe. Uh.
Speaker 2: The under it's underappreciated in the fashion world. Everyone's always
Speaker 2: thinking about like the Cheetoh, the leopard, right, the leopard print.
Speaker 2: But you know, let's give the giraffe.
Speaker 1: It's it's a beautiful pattern.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do they I'm trying to think now, I feel
Speaker 2: like they're just yellow.
Speaker 1: They have they have they have a sort of blocky
Speaker 1: pattern of like sort of a more sort of tan
Speaker 1: white and then a deeper brown and then they have
Speaker 1: this sort of like it's this sort of patchwork blocky
Speaker 1: pattern all over their skin.
Speaker 2: Very beautiful, googling as we speak. Oh, they are beautiful. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: I was totally wrong about them being yellow. That's very embarrassing.
Speaker 2: So sorry. They do have that blocky pattern. I don't
Speaker 2: know why I thought they were yellow.
Speaker 1: Probably your kids are reading kids books and there's like
Speaker 1: a giraffe. The artists might be lazy and just like,
Speaker 1: oh they're yellow or something.
Speaker 2: That's that's exactly what it is. And I only see
Speaker 2: them from like a distance. Okay, Yeah, they're gorgeous. It
Speaker 2: is sort of leopardy but nice. It's it's got a
Speaker 2: little bit thicker blocks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this nice reticulated pattern.
Speaker 2: Beautiful.
Speaker 1: So you know, if you if you use compression stockings,
Speaker 1: you know, just think of it as you are you're
Speaker 1: following in the giant, strange footsteps of giraffes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the giants. How big are their feet?
Speaker 1: Their feet are quite big, so they're actually they're ungulates,
Speaker 1: which means that they have their toes are sort of
Speaker 1: these these hooves.
Speaker 2: But how big are they They're I mean, compared to
Speaker 2: their bodies. They can't be that big, which is why no, I.
Speaker 1: Actually I don't know off the top of my head, but.
Speaker 2: Because every picture I see of them they're covered by
Speaker 2: like the grass. Okay, I see one. Uh. Yeah, they
Speaker 2: look like the same basic proportion that a horses would
Speaker 2: be there.
Speaker 1: I think they are a little bit, yeah, the same proportion.
Speaker 1: They are definitely bigger. The feet are bigger than a horse,
Speaker 1: and they splay out a little more like for the
Speaker 1: weight distribution, unlike a horse. Also, a horse is actually
Speaker 1: an odd toed ungulate. Believe giraffes are an even toad ungulates.
Speaker 1: That means that they have these two two toes in
Speaker 1: the front of their foot.
Speaker 2: So smart, it's really impressive. Can they run fast?
Speaker 1: They can run surprisingly fast. Yeah, they they they can
Speaker 1: gallop pretty quickly. I let me check on that giraffe.
Speaker 1: Let's see, they can run. They can run thirty five
Speaker 1: miles per hour, so that is that is impressive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they can. They can really go get going. And when
Speaker 1: you see them run, they have to like in order
Speaker 1: for the body the weight distribution, they actually have to
Speaker 1: kind of like undulate their heads, so as they're galloping, right,
Speaker 1: they have this like undulation so that they work with
Speaker 1: this like balance of their head. Yeah, exactly. So it's
Speaker 1: I encourage you to look up a giraffe running because
Speaker 1: it's both a little bit goofy but also really interesting.
Speaker 1: But yeah, they can. They can really, they can really
Speaker 1: hoof it pretty quickly. So beautiful, beautiful animals. And even
Speaker 1: like I think people have the sense that we just
Speaker 1: know everything about sort of megafauna, about like large, large,
Speaker 1: famous animals, and we really don't, And by researching we
Speaker 1: can make these incredible discoveries. Like I think NASA is
Speaker 1: particularly interested in giraffes because I read this one thing
Speaker 1: on this NASA blog basically saying that, yeah, they've basically
Speaker 1: invented like an anti gravity space suit. So if we
Speaker 1: understand how how giraffes work and how they manage all
Speaker 1: these things, we can probably help like create things for astronauts,
Speaker 1: so like even in like our future, right, like, if
Speaker 1: we're trying to figure out how to solve problems of
Speaker 1: astronauts in space, you know, looking at something like a
Speaker 1: giraffe can help. So NASA Also, I think being targeted
Speaker 1: by by funding cuts might not.
Speaker 2: Be good, right because who else deserves to go to
Speaker 2: space but certain billionaire oligarchs.
Speaker 1: I actually, you know what, I agree. I think we
Speaker 1: should send them all into space.
Speaker 2: You know, that's actually not a bad idea.
Speaker 1: Enjoy space, guys, We'll take care of everything else down here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all of you guys go off to Mars, have have
Speaker 1: fun on your little your little Mars kingdom, and then.
Speaker 2: We'll just we'll just do we'll handle here, come back home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right. So I just wanted to bring up
Speaker 1: a In the research for this podcast, I found this
Speaker 1: lab that I thought was really cool and I wanted
Speaker 1: to kind of talk about a little bit. It's called
Speaker 1: the Manda Halford Venom Lab at Hunter College. And once
Speaker 1: you say Venom Lab, I'm sold. I'm one hundred percent in.
Speaker 1: So there's this whole and this is just one of
Speaker 1: many labs that work on this kind of stuff. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to highlight one. It's a whole laboratory dedicated
Speaker 1: to studying deadly painful venoms, not just like not to
Speaker 1: create like super villain serums, which it sounds like that's
Speaker 1: what this would be, right, like bioweapons. No, all in
Speaker 1: terms of like the what they can bring us in
Speaker 1: medicine pain management, And it is really cool. I'm also
Speaker 1: bringing it up because this is a lab that's funded
Speaker 1: by the NIH, by the National Science and also the
Speaker 1: National Science Foundation, both agencies that are getting massive cuts
Speaker 1: right now. So the NIH I think like was forced
Speaker 1: to lay off or fire thousands of employees because of
Speaker 1: the Trump administration. The NSF was forced to lay off
Speaker 1: like hundreds of employees. They've also been forced to freeze
Speaker 1: funding to all sorts of things, right due to executive
Speaker 1: orders just like saying like nope, we're just going to
Speaker 1: stop shut off any funding. And then I suppose like
Speaker 1: probably do some kind of like indiscriminate keyword search for like, hey,
Speaker 1: does your your research have the word female in it?
Speaker 2: Too? Bad?
Speaker 1: Like now you don't get funding. Ah, So this is
Speaker 1: exactly the kind of lab that would be threatened by
Speaker 1: the cuts that are being made. And yeah, so it's
Speaker 1: it is it researches conotoxin and cone snails, and cone
Speaker 1: snails are really really cool. They are these beautiful snails
Speaker 1: that you should never pick up because if you do,
Speaker 1: they could inject you with this venomous barb with one
Speaker 1: of the most painful and deadly venoms you could.
Speaker 2: Receive from the from the shell or from the bottom
Speaker 2: sticky part it's from.
Speaker 1: So these snails are they're marine snails, and they're called
Speaker 1: cone snails because they're essentially shaped like a unicorn horn.
Speaker 1: They're this sort of spiraling cone. They're beautiful and like
Speaker 1: at on the base of the shell is where the
Speaker 1: actual mollusk lives, so the living organism inside the shell,
Speaker 1: and it will shoot out from that bottom of the
Speaker 1: shell a barb like kind of like a harpoon, and
Speaker 1: that is to it'll shoot that harpoon at prey to
Speaker 1: paralyze them. But if you pick one up, it might
Speaker 1: shoot it at you as well, which is bad news.
Speaker 1: You need to seek immediate medical treatment because it can
Speaker 1: cause in addition to severe pain, can cause cardiac arrest
Speaker 1: because of these extremely powerful conotoxins. So when you hear
Speaker 1: about a lab researching these conotoxins. You might think, why,
Speaker 1: like we again, like this, this is silly, this is stupid.
Speaker 1: We're looking at something that just like all it does
Speaker 1: is hurt people or kill people. This is a dumb
Speaker 1: thing to research. Just avoid picking up cone snails and
Speaker 1: we're good. We don't need to know anything else about it.
Speaker 1: But like we talked about with the HeLa monster, researching
Speaker 1: this cone snail venom actually gives us a lot of
Speaker 1: opportunities for new medicines and medical treatments. And ironically one
Speaker 1: of the main ones is pain management, which is kind
Speaker 1: of interesting given the fact that if you are, you know,
Speaker 1: harpooned by one of these conesnails out in nature, it's
Speaker 1: definitely not going to manage your pain. Or if by
Speaker 1: pain management you mean managing to put you in a
Speaker 1: lot of pain, is what will happen.
Speaker 2: You know what I find interesting about this, and I
Speaker 2: think you're exactly right to point out, like some people
Speaker 2: might say, what's the point why study this dangerous thing?
Speaker 2: And it's similar to why it's important for researchers to
Speaker 2: when they're say studying a pathogen or a virus, to
Speaker 2: study gain of function issues, to say, like oky, what happens.
Speaker 2: If this virus is not that scary, now gains the
Speaker 2: ability to do this thing, how do we then treat it?
Speaker 2: It informs our treatments, in form on what we can
Speaker 2: do to help prevent us to be a step ahead.
Speaker 2: So it hits all part of this pandemic preparedness. And
Speaker 2: it's a similar mentality. It's like sometimes we have to
Speaker 2: look at the things that are not just ideal or
Speaker 2: fun that some of these dangerous or scarier things. We
Speaker 2: need to look at those as well so we can
Speaker 2: learn from them as well, because you can get from
Speaker 2: them as much, if not more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I mean these are things that sound like
Speaker 1: something a mad scientist would do, right, Like oh, like right,
Speaker 1: sounds like a mad evil scientist creating some kind of bioweapon. Instead,
Speaker 1: this is being used to help people, help treat people.
Speaker 1: So it's already there have been discoveries made about cone
Speaker 1: snail vinom. So there is an existing medication called zyiconotide.
Speaker 1: It's derived from conotoxins the cone snail venom and it
Speaker 1: helps relieve severe intractable pain in chronic conditions such as cancer,
Speaker 1: and it's an alternative to opiates. Uh, it's basically used
Speaker 1: when other pain management just isn't working or is contraindicated,
Speaker 1: because it's delivery method is still a little bit complex.
Speaker 1: It's it's kind of like a kind of like a
Speaker 1: spinal block it's except that it doesn't completely numb all sensation.
Speaker 1: It's uh injected into the spinal fluid and it helps
Speaker 1: block these these pain receptors. But it doesn't it doesn't
Speaker 1: numb you completely. It just helps block the pain. So
Speaker 1: uh it was originally discovered by the University of Research
Speaker 1: uh the University of Utah, which is a public research university,
Speaker 1: by Filipino immigrant Baldomero Olivera uh So. Olivera had grown
Speaker 1: up in the Philippines. He had heard all these stories
Speaker 1: about people who had been stung or killed by cone
Speaker 1: snails because he grew up in an area where conesnails
Speaker 1: could be found occasionally off off the coast, and so
Speaker 1: he used that childhood experience of like hearing about these
Speaker 1: dangerous cone snails, and he was really interested in the
Speaker 1: conotoxin in studying this toxin from the snails. So he
Speaker 1: and also another researcher, Michael McIntosh, were able to isolate
Speaker 1: peptides from this cone snail, and I'm by isolating it,
Speaker 1: it actually instead of you know, causing incredible pain in people, right,
Speaker 1: they found this part of it that is what would
Speaker 1: cause the paralysis right in the prey, but in isolation
Speaker 1: and in proper dosage, it actually blocks the pain receptors.
Speaker 1: It doesn't cause paralysis, it doesn't cause pain, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't risk cardiac arrest. So it's like from this thing
Speaker 1: that is, you know, is a pretty nasty venom, they
Speaker 1: actually find something really useful.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, that's really fascinating. That's a great example. I'm
Speaker 2: going to store that in my head next time I
Speaker 2: have to explain like how how important these seemingly esoteric
Speaker 2: research studies yeah can be?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like who who could have predicted that like
Speaker 1: cone snail venom, right, which is a very nasty thing
Speaker 1: to get stung with, would actually provide pain relief in
Speaker 1: these extremely severe cases. And again, like I think also
Speaker 1: like if this lab was doing this research today, I
Speaker 1: bet their funding would have been pulled because not only
Speaker 1: are they researching something that seems like, oh who cares
Speaker 1: about conesnail venom, but it's also an immigrant who's using
Speaker 1: his experience as an immigrant coming from a different country
Speaker 1: with different experiences right to inform his research, which is
Speaker 1: one of the whole points, right about having like diverse researchers.
Speaker 1: It's it's like people with different life experiences, from different origins,
Speaker 1: from different countries, from just like growing up differently might
Speaker 1: have different research ideas because they have, you know, all
Speaker 1: these like different things that where they come from. And
Speaker 1: so you know, it's this idea of like, oh, science
Speaker 1: should just be complete, like it should just be based
Speaker 1: on merit system where we don't really specify what those
Speaker 1: merits are. But who cares about having researchers who are
Speaker 1: you know, not all exact carbon copies of each other. Like, Well,
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that having researchers from different backgrounds
Speaker 1: is important is because then they think of different ideas,
Speaker 1: Like that's the whole Well, that's one of the entire
Speaker 1: points of having a diverse group of researchers.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's so funny that we have to defend the
Speaker 2: benefits of diversity in anything, but we still do. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's so well proven that people who are bringing
Speaker 2: in different social experiences, different economic experiences, they have ideas
Speaker 2: and thoughts and backgrounds that will lend themselves to new solutions,
Speaker 2: to new questions. In fact, I mean it's no matter
Speaker 2: how smart a person is, their subject to the limitations
Speaker 2: of their own experience and their own upbringing. And that
Speaker 2: plays a role in the questions you ask, the issues
Speaker 2: you see, the experiences you've had. So it's so that's
Speaker 2: a great example, this guy who was like I never
Speaker 2: would have even heard of that, for example, this particular
Speaker 2: type of snail. And this is someone who grew up
Speaker 2: in a different place than me and can come with
Speaker 2: that idea. So it is to be celebrated for that reason.
Speaker 2: It helps it's better, we do better.
Speaker 1: It's like again sort of appealing to the it's again
Speaker 1: sort of appealing to the selfishness, right thing, Like so
Speaker 1: like say someone doesn't care about like, oh well, I
Speaker 1: don't care about diversity or immigrants because of gross reasons, Okay,
Speaker 1: but surely you care about the tangible improvements to your
Speaker 1: life that could be made because and this is one
Speaker 1: of them, right, like having a different background leading to
Speaker 1: different research ideas because you have different experiences that may
Speaker 1: not have occurred to someone else who didn't grow up
Speaker 1: around say cone snails. And so you know that's why so, Like,
Speaker 1: and I just the venom Lab, Holford's Venom Lab at
Speaker 1: Hunter College is continuing research like this. They're cataloging a
Speaker 1: lot of cone snail toxins. They're looking at sort of
Speaker 1: the evolutionary history of cone snails, all these things that
Speaker 1: again they sound kind of esoteric, like why do we
Speaker 1: need to form a phylogeny of these cone snails and
Speaker 1: all these toxins. Well, essentially what's happening is like they're
Speaker 1: creating this huge database, this like library of information on venom,
Speaker 1: specifically conotoxins. But I think they have other research into
Speaker 1: venom as well, and that will help us understand you know,
Speaker 1: basically have like a library of different peptides, different types
Speaker 1: of venom, and that'll enable medical research. So again, like
Speaker 1: so many, it seems like animal venom is kind of
Speaker 1: interesting in that because it's so potent and it has
Speaker 1: so many different strange peptides in it, they for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: present us with these unique opportunities for medical research. We've
Speaker 1: found it in like of course, like the HeLa monsters,
Speaker 1: we talked about anti platelet drugs that can be helpful
Speaker 1: during like cardiac events come some of them come from
Speaker 1: snake venom. And there's also even leeches, which I know
Speaker 1: this sounds like regressive that we're going back to medieval time,
Speaker 1: but leech saliva not not directly slapping the leech on
Speaker 1: your skin and through blood litting isolating compound. There's this
Speaker 1: compound called hrudin in leech saliva is a direct thrombin inhibitor,
Speaker 1: so it essentially like it inhibits this enzyme which facilitates
Speaker 1: blood clotting. So it's an anticoagulant that seems to have
Speaker 1: fewer side effects as other anticoagulants like heperin.
Speaker 2: And I will also add in medical school, I remember
Speaker 2: this distinctly. There was on my surgery rotation there was
Speaker 2: a young guy who got into a bad accident motor
Speaker 2: vehicle accident and had a lot of orthopedic surgeries which
Speaker 2: predisposed him to clots and he had to be kept
Speaker 2: still and casted for a while, and because of that,
Speaker 2: literal leeches like.
Speaker 1: From alaud medical leaches.
Speaker 2: And placed on his medical leeches were used on him.
Speaker 2: I remember being blown away by that. I don't know
Speaker 2: how much of that, if I'm being honest, was because
Speaker 2: I just wasn't that privy to the case, I wasn't
Speaker 2: actually managing the patient directly. How much of that was
Speaker 2: kind of like, well, this is part of a research thing,
Speaker 2: let's see what happens or how much of that was
Speaker 2: considered standard of the care at the time. So it
Speaker 2: is interesting, But yeah, there was like real like real
Speaker 2: use to it, real palpable use to it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I actually have also heard of medical and like these
Speaker 1: compounds actually were derived from medical leeches, and there's also
Speaker 1: medical maggots. So medical leeches do I think they have
Speaker 1: been shown to have positive impacts on say blood flow
Speaker 1: in I think they're usually only used in like extreme cases. Right,
Speaker 1: So if this guy's like has to be immobilized for
Speaker 1: really long periods of time and it's really like say,
Speaker 1: really hard to have them on antic a strong antiicoagulant
Speaker 1: for that amount of time, having these leeches might be
Speaker 1: a better method, right than pumping him full of really
Speaker 1: strong anti coagulants for too long, because anti coagulants can
Speaker 1: and also have like say a risk of brain bleeds
Speaker 1: stomach bleed. Yeah, but also medical maggots can be used
Speaker 1: to do bride dead tissues, so like, yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: crazy it's like, yeah, it's like some of these medieval doctors.
Speaker 1: It's like you guys were almost onto something.
Speaker 2: But right, they're like, what about the US how about that? No, no, no,
Speaker 2: you were wrong about that. The baskets not so not
Speaker 2: so bad.
Speaker 1: There is bile. There is blood and bile you were right.
Speaker 2: About that's right. Yeah, they do exist.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so uh, these things that sound like again,
Speaker 1: like you could imagine someone going in like, why do
Speaker 1: we need to like use leeches in medicine. That's stupid.
Speaker 1: Let's cut all the funding to that and then lose
Speaker 1: out on these you know, these this kind of like medicine,
Speaker 1: which is also it also kind of bothers me that
Speaker 1: like we have weird, amazing medical discoveries and which gets
Speaker 1: kind of looked over by like but what if what
Speaker 1: about like horse dewarmer, which we don't actually find Hey
Speaker 1: if horse d warmer, if you did like look into
Speaker 1: that and actually find an effect, that would be fine.
Speaker 1: It's not the fact that it's a horse d warmer.
Speaker 1: There have been strange cases where we've had a medication
Speaker 1: that's for something completely different and then researchers find out, hey,
Speaker 1: actually this also does this, So it's not a bad
Speaker 1: idea to try it, right, like to do a study
Speaker 1: and yeah, throw whatever, throw stuff at the wall and
Speaker 1: see what sticks. That's done, yes, and research in medicine
Speaker 1: all the time. The problem is when you ignore the
Speaker 1: results of the study, like if the study.
Speaker 2: Doesn't exactly right. So it's just exactly right yeah for humans,
Speaker 2: Yeah it was. It's shown it's great for strongloids infections, yeah,
Speaker 2: and in river blindness and even scabies and maybe headline
Speaker 2: and they have studied they're like, hey, it's good for this,
Speaker 2: and they looked at it for other things like COVID
Speaker 2: and found it wasn't that useful. Yeah, and that's okay,
Speaker 2: that's part of the process. Like, I love that they
Speaker 2: looked at it. Just you have to then follow up
Speaker 2: and just like you said, listen, read and understand the
Speaker 2: results or have it at least translated by somebody who
Speaker 2: can do that for you.
Speaker 1: Right, Like, but I feel very safe now with our
Speaker 1: kind of uh the hhs what's his name?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure Bobby.
Speaker 1: More Bila virus good, good, goodness.
Speaker 2: Bobby more Billa viruses in charge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all good. I feel very safe. Break out
Speaker 1: your leeches, everyone, actually would be better. It would be
Speaker 1: better if he was like, hey, we should probably in
Speaker 1: the leeches. Why can't they do that? You know, like
Speaker 1: if he was like he was the leech guy, I'd
Speaker 1: actually be.
Speaker 2: Like, you know what, maybe why not if he left
Speaker 2: the vaccines alone and just do weird stuff like that,
Speaker 2: I'd be on.
Speaker 1: Board absolutely, just like, just like vaccines work, all right, now,
Speaker 1: let's see if we should be incorporating more leeches into medicine.
Speaker 1: I'd be fine with that as again, as long as
Speaker 1: we don't nor results.
Speaker 2: It could it could. It could also go too far
Speaker 2: and there would be like you're just walking around town
Speaker 2: just wearing leeches because fashion red hat on their neck.
Speaker 1: That reminds me of I think. I saw like a
Speaker 1: social media post of someone who had a pet leash
Speaker 1: and put like a little pink bow on it, and
Speaker 1: then it was just like time to feed my leech,
Speaker 1: and people were like, what do you feed it? It's like,
Speaker 1: what do you think, winky face? It's like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: a pet leach. Apparently, you know, I don't. I gotta
Speaker 1: say I don't recommend it. Medical leeches are love it
Speaker 1: specifically chosen to not transfer diseases. To you when they
Speaker 1: buy you. So please don't like grab a leach out
Speaker 1: of a pond and adopt it. That's they can transmit disease,
Speaker 1: and so that's not not a good not a good idea. Anyways,
Speaker 1: before we go, why don't we play a little game
Speaker 1: called guests Who's squawk? In the Mystery Animal Sound Game?
Speaker 1: Every week I play Mystery Animals in you the listener,
Speaker 1: and you the guests, try to guess who is making
Speaker 1: that sound. Last week hint was this start your engines?
Speaker 1: All right, do you have any guesses?
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say that's the kukura.
Speaker 1: That's a great guess. Actually it's pretty similar to a
Speaker 1: kugar barra, so I I don't think that's a bad
Speaker 1: guess it bad guess. It is wrong. So you don't
Speaker 1: win any prizes.
Speaker 2: Can I have a second guest go for it? No?
Speaker 1: No, you're losing points. Now you're off the board.
Speaker 2: I don't know any other animals. That's it.
Speaker 1: This is a congratulations to Anna La for guessing correctly.
Speaker 1: This is the motorbike frog aka the western bell frog.
Speaker 1: They are small, all green tree frogs who live in
Speaker 1: a region along the edge of southwestern Australia. So you
Speaker 1: know what, you were actually right about the country because
Speaker 1: you were Kuckubra and Koalas, so you kind of got
Speaker 1: the country right. And I feel like that counts for something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I could sense you could you could sense an autie vibe.
Speaker 2: To it, really elongating those values.
Speaker 1: Good day might ah.
Speaker 2: Nah my, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I love
Speaker 2: the Australian accent and I think like it. I would
Speaker 2: if I were to have an accent. That's one I
Speaker 2: would love because I think that like, no, no news
Speaker 2: would really be bad news when it's spoken with an
Speaker 2: Australian accent, like I, nah, you got cancer? Ah, it
Speaker 2: still like sounds pretty like cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah no nar oh nar uh no, I too love Australians.
Speaker 1: Uh please please continue in Your country is amazingly full
Speaker 1: of animals, most of which want to kill me. But
Speaker 1: they're still really cool.
Speaker 2: So it's still worth It's still worth it right place.
Speaker 1: So uh yeah. These these tree frogs grow to be
Speaker 1: a little under three inches that's so and a half centimeters,
Speaker 1: so they're not that big. Their tadpoles are actually slightly
Speaker 1: longer than their adult form, which is something that occasionally
Speaker 1: happens with frogs. It's just that they lose that long
Speaker 1: tail and they become more their center of mass, you know,
Speaker 1: becomes frogified. So they seem like they're shrinking in masks,
Speaker 1: but they're not not really shrinking mass. It's just that
Speaker 1: they're less long and they become more solid. Uh. And
Speaker 1: so males make this motorbike sound, as you guessed it
Speaker 1: their mating call, just like just like motorcycle riders, you know,
Speaker 1: gravving their engines. It's the same exact.
Speaker 2: Thing which I hear really works.
Speaker 1: It works so good. Whenever I hear someone's car where
Speaker 1: they're muffler is, I'm like, that sounds like a really
Speaker 1: cool person that I would I would love to get
Speaker 1: to know. On the sarcasm onto this week's mister Animal sound,
Speaker 1: the hint is this, this little baby does not want
Speaker 1: to be hung out to dry. Try to ignore the
Speaker 1: soothing music, but we're really looking at that sound.
Speaker 2: Okay, that is interesting because it sounds like a baby crying,
Speaker 2: and I don't know. The high how to dry part
Speaker 2: makes me think it's like some animal that's can an
Speaker 2: upside down like a fat But I do think of
Speaker 2: animals that have that mimic baby sounds. Cats are one
Speaker 2: of them, but that's not a cat. Foxes maybe a
Speaker 2: little bit, but it's not that either. I'm gonna say
Speaker 2: something so I know these little facts because we spent
Speaker 2: a lot of time in the San Francisco too, and
Speaker 2: all zoos have peacocks because peacocks are like good luck
Speaker 2: for user or something, and their baby sounds could sound
Speaker 2: like data crimes. So I'm gonna say peacock's and the
Speaker 2: number one guests, and I know I'm not allowed to
Speaker 2: do this, I'm gonna do it anyway. Goals would say
Speaker 2: qualis again because they can make weird sounds, So Qualas
Speaker 2: is my number two.
Speaker 1: Gain Walas can make weird sounds, and I can attest
Speaker 1: to the fact that peacocks can make really weird sounds.
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, we had a peacock just
Speaker 1: show up in our yard. I lived in San Diego,
Speaker 1: so I guess this is something that happens occasionally. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't ours, but it was just there, and so
Speaker 1: my mom started feeding it bread, which is not the
Speaker 1: is not like a good diet for a peacock. With
Speaker 1: this peacock was into it and it was like multi
Speaker 1: grain bread, so it had some seeds and stuff. So
Speaker 1: this peacock would just like continually show up and want
Speaker 1: to get bread from my mom. And occasionally it would
Speaker 1: get up on like our fa and then just like
Speaker 1: flap across the yard and scream at the top of
Speaker 1: its lungs. This is like a sound. They're beautiful birds,
Speaker 1: but the calls they make are absolutely heinous. So we
Speaker 1: would just be playing with our toys and then hear
Speaker 1: this peacock screaming outside.
Speaker 2: Like where's my bread? Scary?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And then when my mom my mom stopped
Speaker 1: feeding him bread for a couple days and it was out,
Speaker 1: it was gone. It was like, all right, if I'm
Speaker 1: not getting my bread, I'm not here anymore. There was
Speaker 1: no emotional connection to our family, just like I'm here
Speaker 1: for the bread and literally nothing.
Speaker 2: Else could not be bothered, nothing else.
Speaker 1: Well, if you think you know the answer to this
Speaker 1: week's mystery animal sound, you can write to me at
Speaker 1: Creature feature pot at gmail dot com. Uh Kevy, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. Where can the
Speaker 1: people find you?
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. You can find
Speaker 2: me on some social media like blue Sky at cave
Speaker 2: am the more importantly, listen to the podcast The House
Speaker 2: of Pod, where you can find pretty much anywhere that
Speaker 2: you get pods and get them casted. So if you
Speaker 2: like the show, I totally agree. I think you're going
Speaker 2: to enjoy our show too. We try to look at
Speaker 2: medicine and health topics and science topics from a kind
Speaker 2: of fun perspective and try to make them more relatable,
Speaker 2: and we take aim at a lot of medical grifters
Speaker 2: and medical quackery, which I think is more important than ever.
Speaker 2: So check it out. If you don't like it, you know,
Speaker 2: you didn't really pay for it, that's okay, and it's uh,
Speaker 2: and just let it play in the background. That's fine.
Speaker 1: That's a good point.
Speaker 2: That's a good point.
Speaker 1: If you don't like it, you don't pay for it,
Speaker 1: so you know, yeah, are we going to do background noise?
Speaker 1: Background noise?
Speaker 2: That's right. No.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it.
Speaker 2: I listen to it. I love it.
Speaker 1: I've been on it, so I can attest and hopefully
Speaker 1: you'll come back. I would love to absolutely take me
Speaker 1: back so I can ask all I've got so many
Speaker 1: like it's like, why does my toe do this? Which
Speaker 1: I'm gonna waste all your time asking about very specific
Speaker 1: topics that are of no interest to anyone else but me.
Speaker 2: I bet you'll be surprised.
Speaker 1: All right, guys, thank you so much for listening. Please
Speaker 1: rate and review that tangibly helps me. And thanks to
Speaker 1: the space Cossics for their super awesome song. Ex Alumina.
Speaker 1: Creature features a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like
Speaker 1: the one you just heard, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple
Speaker 1: Podcasts or I Guess what where have you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows. I'm not your mother, and I can't
Speaker 1: tell you what to do, but don't let it get
Speaker 1: he the monster bite you. It's got you gotta go
Speaker 1: to a doctor for that. You can't. He said, it's
Speaker 1: not gonna be a good time. Leave them alone, Leave
Speaker 1: them alone.
Speaker 2: Don't come to this doctor. Don't come to this doctor
Speaker 2: with a heilo by right away. I'm not gonna help you.
Speaker 1: I won't know how and you've been warned, right yeah,
Speaker 1: don't please please don't try to get yourself in envenomated
Speaker 1: and then expect cave to fix you after you're like, well,
Speaker 1: I thought I could treat myself by having a snake
Speaker 1: bite my eyeball, But do go to a doctor if
Speaker 1: you get bitten by a snake on your eyeball, and
Speaker 1: or maybe you'll have discovered some kind of amazing cure
Speaker 1: from that snake who couldn't say anyways, See next Wednesday.