1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:32,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. When I think of influence, I think of any 2 00:00:33,036 --> 00:00:39,156 Speaker 1: time one person changes another person's attitude or behavior. That's 3 00:00:39,236 --> 00:00:43,276 Speaker 1: Vanessa Vans, a professor of social psychology at Cornell, an 4 00:00:43,316 --> 00:00:45,996 Speaker 1: author of the book You Have More Influence Than You Think. 5 00:00:46,836 --> 00:00:49,316 Speaker 1: When I hear a title with the word influence in it, 6 00:00:49,676 --> 00:00:53,236 Speaker 1: I immediately think of Dale Carnegie. In nineteen thirty six, 7 00:00:53,356 --> 00:00:56,156 Speaker 1: he published the book How to Win Friends and Influence People, 8 00:00:56,476 --> 00:00:59,916 Speaker 1: and it's still a bestseller today. Dale makes the case 9 00:00:59,956 --> 00:01:02,836 Speaker 1: that influence is a skill we need to actively cultivate, 10 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:07,396 Speaker 1: but Vanessa makes the opposite argument. I am very purposely 11 00:01:07,516 --> 00:01:10,716 Speaker 1: not the modern day Dale Arnegie, because I think there's 12 00:01:10,716 --> 00:01:13,876 Speaker 1: so many resources out there that are trying to be that, 13 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:16,596 Speaker 1: you know, like here's how to win friends and influence people, 14 00:01:16,676 --> 00:01:20,876 Speaker 1: just in these other thousand different ways. And I think 15 00:01:20,916 --> 00:01:25,316 Speaker 1: my take is really that we already are influencing people, 16 00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:32,156 Speaker 1: we just don't see it. On today's episode, what science 17 00:01:32,196 --> 00:01:38,196 Speaker 1: teaches us about the influence we already have. I'm Maya Shunker, 18 00:01:38,356 --> 00:01:40,796 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show 19 00:01:40,796 --> 00:01:43,116 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 20 00:01:43,156 --> 00:01:56,836 Speaker 1: face of a big change. I love when I come 21 00:01:56,876 --> 00:01:59,636 Speaker 1: across research that shows we can improve our lives with 22 00:01:59,796 --> 00:02:03,596 Speaker 1: just a small shift and perspective. Vanessa says, we don't 23 00:02:03,636 --> 00:02:06,676 Speaker 1: need to follow a rigid set of principles or completely 24 00:02:06,716 --> 00:02:11,436 Speaker 1: overhaul our personalities to be influential. There's a much simpler approach, 25 00:02:11,756 --> 00:02:14,876 Speaker 1: and it starts with recognizing what even counts is influence. 26 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:18,596 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people think of influence in 27 00:02:18,676 --> 00:02:21,676 Speaker 1: a very formal sort of way. They think of those 28 00:02:21,756 --> 00:02:26,516 Speaker 1: times when you're actively trying to persuade someone to completely 29 00:02:26,596 --> 00:02:29,836 Speaker 1: change their minds, or you're standing in front of a 30 00:02:29,916 --> 00:02:33,116 Speaker 1: room with your presentation trying to win over a set 31 00:02:33,156 --> 00:02:39,436 Speaker 1: of clients. My definition of influence captures those kinds of instances, 32 00:02:39,476 --> 00:02:42,876 Speaker 1: but it's also broader than that. It's also the times 33 00:02:42,916 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 1: we just make a throwaway comment and suddenly that changes 34 00:02:46,316 --> 00:02:49,316 Speaker 1: the way someone feels about something. It's just army or 35 00:02:49,436 --> 00:02:53,556 Speaker 1: presence in a room that changes how people talk about 36 00:02:53,596 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 1: a particular topic. And so I think of influence is 37 00:02:56,996 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 1: so much more broad than a lot of people tend 38 00:02:59,556 --> 00:03:02,916 Speaker 1: to think of influence. Yeah, and one reason your approach 39 00:03:02,916 --> 00:03:05,836 Speaker 1: really resonates with me is that the know how to 40 00:03:06,476 --> 00:03:10,156 Speaker 1: win over people strategically, it's always felt so ichy to 41 00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:13,516 Speaker 1: me like a person needs to depart from who they 42 00:03:13,556 --> 00:03:16,156 Speaker 1: are in order to have an impact on the world. 43 00:03:16,236 --> 00:03:19,436 Speaker 1: And I think, as listeners will hear over the course 44 00:03:19,436 --> 00:03:22,756 Speaker 1: of our conversation, this is about just staying true to 45 00:03:22,756 --> 00:03:25,076 Speaker 1: who you are and what you already are made up of, 46 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:27,796 Speaker 1: and that can be enough. You don't have to engage 47 00:03:27,836 --> 00:03:33,316 Speaker 1: in these huge strategic changes in order to affect people. Yeah. Absolutely, 48 00:03:33,396 --> 00:03:35,756 Speaker 1: we think we need to try so hard and get 49 00:03:35,796 --> 00:03:39,316 Speaker 1: the wording exactly right to impact another person. But often 50 00:03:39,476 --> 00:03:43,796 Speaker 1: just saying what we think, no matter how inarticulately, no 51 00:03:43,796 --> 00:03:48,356 Speaker 1: matter how softly, at times people hear it and they 52 00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:50,196 Speaker 1: think about it later, and we don't always see that. 53 00:03:50,316 --> 00:03:53,116 Speaker 1: We think that if we had influenced someone will turn 54 00:03:53,156 --> 00:03:55,316 Speaker 1: to us and say, right there, oh, you've totally changed 55 00:03:55,316 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 1: my perspective on that. But think about all the times 56 00:03:58,276 --> 00:04:01,276 Speaker 1: that you change your opinion, right, It often happens a 57 00:04:01,356 --> 00:04:04,076 Speaker 1: week later, when you're still thinking about something somebody said. 58 00:04:04,196 --> 00:04:06,876 Speaker 1: It happens after somebody else said the same thing. It's 59 00:04:06,916 --> 00:04:10,716 Speaker 1: got this cumulative sort of nature, and we have a 60 00:04:10,716 --> 00:04:13,116 Speaker 1: lot more influence that we don't see through these more 61 00:04:13,156 --> 00:04:18,116 Speaker 1: subtle sorts of things. Yeah, as we're moving about in 62 00:04:18,156 --> 00:04:21,836 Speaker 1: this world, we sometimes believe that we are wearing what 63 00:04:21,876 --> 00:04:24,876 Speaker 1: you call an invisibility cloak. When we're sitting on the subway, 64 00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:27,956 Speaker 1: listening to a podcast, or eating lunch at a cafe. 65 00:04:28,316 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 1: It just feels like we're in our own little worlds 66 00:04:31,396 --> 00:04:34,236 Speaker 1: and that no one's noticing us. I certainly feel this way, 67 00:04:34,596 --> 00:04:38,316 Speaker 1: but research shows that isn't true, right, do you mind 68 00:04:38,396 --> 00:04:42,516 Speaker 1: Vanessa sharing an example from the research. Sure. So. This 69 00:04:42,596 --> 00:04:46,716 Speaker 1: is researched by my colleague Erica Boothby and her collaborators, 70 00:04:46,716 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 1: and they show that we tend to think that we 71 00:04:50,076 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 1: are observing other people more than other people are observing us. So, 72 00:04:55,916 --> 00:05:00,596 Speaker 1: for example, and one study, researchers surveyed people who were 73 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:04,556 Speaker 1: eating lunch in a cafeteria and they asked them how 74 00:05:04,636 --> 00:05:07,756 Speaker 1: much they thought other people were noticing them and curious 75 00:05:07,796 --> 00:05:11,956 Speaker 1: about them. It turns out they underestimated how much people 76 00:05:11,996 --> 00:05:15,676 Speaker 1: were noticing and curious about them by about sixty seven percent, 77 00:05:15,716 --> 00:05:18,236 Speaker 1: which is a huge amount. You know, when I take 78 00:05:18,236 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 1: a step back, it makes a lot of sense why 79 00:05:20,476 --> 00:05:24,316 Speaker 1: we would reliably underestimate how much other people are observing us. 80 00:05:24,436 --> 00:05:28,316 Speaker 1: We're rarely confronted with positive evidence that people are observing us, right, 81 00:05:28,516 --> 00:05:32,556 Speaker 1: because it's really uncomfortable to sustain eye contact with someone 82 00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:34,756 Speaker 1: on the subway who's just looked at you and you're 83 00:05:34,796 --> 00:05:36,876 Speaker 1: looking at them. And you talk about the fact that 84 00:05:36,996 --> 00:05:40,876 Speaker 1: humans tend to engage in what's called gaze deflection. So 85 00:05:41,236 --> 00:05:43,476 Speaker 1: what this refers to is that when we look at someone, 86 00:05:44,116 --> 00:05:47,116 Speaker 1: they have a tendency to deflect our gaze and to 87 00:05:47,156 --> 00:05:49,956 Speaker 1: look away from us, even if they were just looking 88 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:53,316 Speaker 1: at us moments before. So we are absolutely left thinking 89 00:05:53,356 --> 00:05:55,476 Speaker 1: that we are the only ones out there in the 90 00:05:55,516 --> 00:05:58,836 Speaker 1: world who are observing others. That's right. And you could 91 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:01,356 Speaker 1: totally imagine the times that you know, you looked over 92 00:06:01,396 --> 00:06:04,316 Speaker 1: at someone and caught eyes and you quickly looked away, 93 00:06:04,756 --> 00:06:07,836 Speaker 1: and your assumption was probably that they caught you looking 94 00:06:07,836 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 1: at them, right, when it's just as likely that you 95 00:06:10,436 --> 00:06:14,276 Speaker 1: caught them looking at you. Okay, So, Vanessa, we've just 96 00:06:14,396 --> 00:06:18,556 Speaker 1: established that generally speaking, we tend to underestimate how much 97 00:06:18,556 --> 00:06:21,716 Speaker 1: people notice us. But you say that there's no need 98 00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:24,516 Speaker 1: to get paranoid. Why should I not feel paranoid in 99 00:06:24,556 --> 00:06:27,556 Speaker 1: this moment? Usually the first thing people think when I 100 00:06:27,596 --> 00:06:29,556 Speaker 1: say that other people are paying attention to you more 101 00:06:29,596 --> 00:06:32,916 Speaker 1: than you realize. Is that everybody's paying attention to the 102 00:06:32,916 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 1: exact things that we wish that they weren't paying attention 103 00:06:35,636 --> 00:06:39,076 Speaker 1: to our bad hair days or the times we misspoke 104 00:06:39,316 --> 00:06:42,876 Speaker 1: or the times we tripped and fell, when in fact 105 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:45,756 Speaker 1: that's also not true, so it's actually kind of happy 106 00:06:45,756 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 1: news all around. This is based on a finding called 107 00:06:48,996 --> 00:06:53,276 Speaker 1: the spotlight effect. This fear that we have a spotlight 108 00:06:53,316 --> 00:06:58,556 Speaker 1: shining on our most self conscious flaws or concerns, and 109 00:06:58,596 --> 00:07:01,876 Speaker 1: that everybody else is looking at them, when in fact 110 00:07:01,956 --> 00:07:04,596 Speaker 1: they aren't. They're seeing us as a whole person, and 111 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:08,236 Speaker 1: whatever embarrassing thing we have going on, they really aren't 112 00:07:08,236 --> 00:07:12,796 Speaker 1: even noticing. So, to summarize, we tend to underestimate how 113 00:07:12,876 --> 00:07:15,436 Speaker 1: much other people notice us, except when it has to 114 00:07:15,476 --> 00:07:18,276 Speaker 1: do with something that we're very self conscious about or 115 00:07:18,276 --> 00:07:21,636 Speaker 1: we're really embarrassed by. And one reason that this is 116 00:07:21,676 --> 00:07:26,996 Speaker 1: so important is because of the connection between observation and influence. 117 00:07:27,156 --> 00:07:30,916 Speaker 1: Right when others are observing us, we have the potential 118 00:07:30,956 --> 00:07:33,596 Speaker 1: to influence them. When we're observing others, they have the 119 00:07:33,596 --> 00:07:36,356 Speaker 1: potential to influence us. And so it's really important to 120 00:07:36,396 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 1: realize that there is a really strong connection between these 121 00:07:38,956 --> 00:07:44,276 Speaker 1: two concepts. That's right, So our mere presence with another 122 00:07:44,316 --> 00:07:48,116 Speaker 1: person can impact so many things. Let's talk about a 123 00:07:48,156 --> 00:07:51,676 Speaker 1: few situations in which we might be influencing people without 124 00:07:51,716 --> 00:07:56,796 Speaker 1: realizing it, what I might call passive influence. Research shows 125 00:07:56,836 --> 00:08:00,876 Speaker 1: that just sharing in an experience with someone can influence 126 00:08:01,276 --> 00:08:04,636 Speaker 1: how they experience that thing. So this is work on 127 00:08:04,676 --> 00:08:10,356 Speaker 1: this idea that shared experiences tend to be amplified or intensified. 128 00:08:10,916 --> 00:08:13,996 Speaker 1: And some of my favorite work on this was done 129 00:08:14,156 --> 00:08:19,396 Speaker 1: using chocolate, where they had a participant come in and 130 00:08:19,596 --> 00:08:22,116 Speaker 1: eat a piece of chocolate and they either did it 131 00:08:22,156 --> 00:08:25,636 Speaker 1: by themselves or they did it with another person in 132 00:08:25,676 --> 00:08:28,756 Speaker 1: the room who ate the exact same kind of chocolate. 133 00:08:28,956 --> 00:08:31,476 Speaker 1: And they weren't allowed to speak, and they couldn't even 134 00:08:31,516 --> 00:08:33,956 Speaker 1: look at each other and make guys and decide that 135 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 1: this is good or this is bad. All they could 136 00:08:36,556 --> 00:08:40,276 Speaker 1: do was be present in the same room together, and 137 00:08:40,316 --> 00:08:43,116 Speaker 1: the fact that they were eating this chocolate in the 138 00:08:43,156 --> 00:08:48,116 Speaker 1: same space as another person actually amplified the experience of 139 00:08:48,116 --> 00:08:52,076 Speaker 1: eating that chocolate. So when the chocolate was sweet and delicious, 140 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:55,636 Speaker 1: they said that it was even more sweet and delicious 141 00:08:55,636 --> 00:08:57,996 Speaker 1: if they were eating it with another person than if 142 00:08:57,996 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 1: they were eating it by themselves. But the most interesting 143 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:04,356 Speaker 1: thing to me is that it's not just that the 144 00:09:04,396 --> 00:09:08,676 Speaker 1: presence of another person made the experience better or more positive. 145 00:09:09,156 --> 00:09:11,796 Speaker 1: It turns out that when they gave them bitter chocolate, 146 00:09:11,876 --> 00:09:14,796 Speaker 1: which didn't taste great, and they ate it with another person, 147 00:09:14,956 --> 00:09:18,756 Speaker 1: they thought it tasted worse and more bitter. So even 148 00:09:18,916 --> 00:09:21,196 Speaker 1: in the case where you were doing something negative, the 149 00:09:21,236 --> 00:09:23,676 Speaker 1: experience was amplified. It wasn't made better by the presence 150 00:09:23,716 --> 00:09:27,756 Speaker 1: of another person. It was actually just intensified intensified. Yeah. 151 00:09:27,756 --> 00:09:31,876 Speaker 1: And what do you think the mechanism at play here is? Yeah. 152 00:09:31,876 --> 00:09:35,396 Speaker 1: So the researchers explain this finding by something that they 153 00:09:35,436 --> 00:09:39,516 Speaker 1: call mentalization. So basically what this is is that while 154 00:09:39,556 --> 00:09:42,516 Speaker 1: you're having an experience and reflecting on how you feel 155 00:09:42,556 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 1: about that experience, you're simultaneously wondering how that other person 156 00:09:47,676 --> 00:09:51,716 Speaker 1: is experiencing that thing and what they think of this chocolate, 157 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 1: for example, And because you're seeing it through two minds, 158 00:09:55,036 --> 00:09:59,476 Speaker 1: your own and another person's, it amplifies that experience. It's 159 00:09:59,516 --> 00:10:05,596 Speaker 1: that experience squared, deliciousness squared deliciousness squared. Yeah. And you 160 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:08,716 Speaker 1: also say in your book that when we read books 161 00:10:08,756 --> 00:10:11,036 Speaker 1: that we other people are reading. When we watch shows 162 00:10:11,116 --> 00:10:14,396 Speaker 1: that other people are watching, we tend to pay more 163 00:10:14,396 --> 00:10:17,036 Speaker 1: attention to those shows. We remember them better, Right, So 164 00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:19,556 Speaker 1: it just feels like we're having a more immersive experience. 165 00:10:19,916 --> 00:10:21,916 Speaker 1: That's right. When you have a book club and you 166 00:10:21,956 --> 00:10:24,516 Speaker 1: know all your friends are reading the same book, you're 167 00:10:24,596 --> 00:10:27,796 Speaker 1: reading the book with those other people in mind. I 168 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:29,996 Speaker 1: wonder how so and so is going to react to 169 00:10:30,036 --> 00:10:32,436 Speaker 1: this plot turn, I wonder what this person's going to 170 00:10:32,516 --> 00:10:35,596 Speaker 1: think of this particular character. My friends and I do 171 00:10:35,636 --> 00:10:38,756 Speaker 1: this thing we call music Taste Test, where we all 172 00:10:38,796 --> 00:10:41,636 Speaker 1: submit a set of songs and then it gets downloaded 173 00:10:41,636 --> 00:10:43,716 Speaker 1: to a playlist that we all listen to, and then 174 00:10:43,716 --> 00:10:46,036 Speaker 1: we rank them all after a couple weeks of listening 175 00:10:46,116 --> 00:10:49,396 Speaker 1: to this playlist. It just makes listening to a playlist 176 00:10:49,516 --> 00:10:52,756 Speaker 1: so much more interesting because the whole time I'm thinking like, 177 00:10:52,796 --> 00:10:54,636 Speaker 1: oh my god, I know that this person is going 178 00:10:54,676 --> 00:10:56,556 Speaker 1: to hate this song or this person's going to love 179 00:10:56,596 --> 00:10:59,276 Speaker 1: this song, and it just amplifies the whole experience and 180 00:10:59,356 --> 00:11:02,836 Speaker 1: makes it so much more pleasant. Yeah. I love the 181 00:11:02,876 --> 00:11:06,676 Speaker 1: research showing that even when we're just an audience member, 182 00:11:06,916 --> 00:11:09,676 Speaker 1: we can have influence on the person or people who 183 00:11:09,716 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 1: are at the front of the room. And the reason 184 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:15,516 Speaker 1: that this is so surprising is because it's definitely a 185 00:11:15,516 --> 00:11:19,436 Speaker 1: context in which we think influence flows in just one direction, 186 00:11:19,596 --> 00:11:22,836 Speaker 1: right from say the speaker to the crowd, but it's 187 00:11:22,876 --> 00:11:25,996 Speaker 1: actually flowing in two directions. Yeah, this is one of 188 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:29,516 Speaker 1: my favorite findings. Just like we think of influence in 189 00:11:29,516 --> 00:11:32,956 Speaker 1: this formal way, right, we think that it's that person 190 00:11:32,996 --> 00:11:35,116 Speaker 1: in the front of the room on the podium with 191 00:11:35,156 --> 00:11:37,956 Speaker 1: the microphone, that's the person doing all the influencing in 192 00:11:37,996 --> 00:11:40,556 Speaker 1: the room. But in fact, for anybody who stood in 193 00:11:40,596 --> 00:11:43,476 Speaker 1: front of a room of people, you are looking out 194 00:11:43,556 --> 00:11:46,196 Speaker 1: at that crowd of people and wondering what they think 195 00:11:46,196 --> 00:11:49,356 Speaker 1: of you. Right, You're trying to get a response from them. 196 00:11:49,436 --> 00:11:52,596 Speaker 1: You're trying to get them to like you, to agree 197 00:11:52,636 --> 00:11:54,756 Speaker 1: with what you have to say, and so you're looking 198 00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:57,156 Speaker 1: out for any kind of cue that they may or 199 00:11:57,196 --> 00:11:59,596 Speaker 1: may not be agreeing with what you have to say, 200 00:11:59,916 --> 00:12:03,196 Speaker 1: and so you're altering your behavior based on what you see. 201 00:12:03,596 --> 00:12:06,716 Speaker 1: You also are altering the things you say based on 202 00:12:06,756 --> 00:12:10,836 Speaker 1: what you presume that audience is going to respond to. So, 203 00:12:10,916 --> 00:12:13,796 Speaker 1: in a classic study on how much we tend to 204 00:12:13,796 --> 00:12:16,516 Speaker 1: tune our messages to the audience, that we're talking to. 205 00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:20,276 Speaker 1: The experimenters brought participants into the lab and they had 206 00:12:20,316 --> 00:12:23,396 Speaker 1: them listen to this speech. It was a neutral speech 207 00:12:23,676 --> 00:12:27,756 Speaker 1: about legalizing marijuana, so there were pros, there were cons. 208 00:12:27,796 --> 00:12:32,556 Speaker 1: It didn't make any particular conclusion. And then these participants 209 00:12:32,556 --> 00:12:35,956 Speaker 1: were told, we'd like you to summarize this speech to 210 00:12:35,996 --> 00:12:39,356 Speaker 1: this other person. They were either told, this other person 211 00:12:39,676 --> 00:12:45,436 Speaker 1: is already pro legalization, or this other person is against legalization. 212 00:12:46,196 --> 00:12:49,636 Speaker 1: The participants gave the summary of this neutral speech, but 213 00:12:49,836 --> 00:12:53,236 Speaker 1: when they gave it to the person who was pro legalization, 214 00:12:53,916 --> 00:12:55,836 Speaker 1: it took on a little bit more of a pro 215 00:12:56,076 --> 00:12:59,316 Speaker 1: legalization bent. When they gave it to the person who 216 00:12:59,356 --> 00:13:03,676 Speaker 1: was against legalization, it came across as much more against legalization. 217 00:13:04,636 --> 00:13:08,836 Speaker 1: The most fascinating part about this is that the person 218 00:13:09,196 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 1: who was receiving the summary knew that that person giving 219 00:13:13,356 --> 00:13:16,196 Speaker 1: the summary didn't actually have this belief. They were just 220 00:13:16,236 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: summarizing someone else's belief. So, for example, imagine I was 221 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:25,276 Speaker 1: summarizing this particular speech for you maya. I know that 222 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:28,156 Speaker 1: you know that it's not my opinion. I'm just doing 223 00:13:28,156 --> 00:13:30,436 Speaker 1: this for the experiment, or I'm just summarizing this speech, 224 00:13:30,796 --> 00:13:34,676 Speaker 1: and yet I'm somehow tailoring it to your viewpoint, because 225 00:13:34,716 --> 00:13:38,836 Speaker 1: that desire to tune to your audience is so strong. 226 00:13:40,676 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 1: I mean, that is so interesting. I don't know, it 227 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:47,236 Speaker 1: just feels like this very primitive desire to be liked, 228 00:13:47,716 --> 00:13:51,596 Speaker 1: for people to like us. And so even when we 229 00:13:51,676 --> 00:13:53,836 Speaker 1: know that person's not going to describe what I'm saying 230 00:13:53,836 --> 00:13:56,116 Speaker 1: to my own values or beliefs, you just know in 231 00:13:56,156 --> 00:13:59,676 Speaker 1: that moment, they're still, through some sort of association, going 232 00:13:59,716 --> 00:14:01,756 Speaker 1: to like me a little more if I err on 233 00:14:01,796 --> 00:14:04,476 Speaker 1: their side of the debate. Absolutely, we just don't want 234 00:14:04,476 --> 00:14:07,396 Speaker 1: to be associated with that position that we know this 235 00:14:07,436 --> 00:14:09,836 Speaker 1: person isn't going to like, even if we kind of 236 00:14:10,036 --> 00:14:13,036 Speaker 1: say no, no, no, no, it's not mine. I'd love 237 00:14:13,076 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 1: to also talk about situations where we make decisions that 238 00:14:17,636 --> 00:14:20,316 Speaker 1: we think are just for us or just for ourselves, 239 00:14:20,756 --> 00:14:23,036 Speaker 1: that they can have a really strong influence on those 240 00:14:23,076 --> 00:14:27,716 Speaker 1: around us. Yeah, So this is another aspect of how 241 00:14:27,756 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 1: we can impact people simply by them seeing what we do, 242 00:14:31,636 --> 00:14:35,596 Speaker 1: simply by them observing our behaviors and our decisions. So 243 00:14:35,636 --> 00:14:38,156 Speaker 1: you can imagine, you know, we see somebody else litter 244 00:14:38,476 --> 00:14:41,076 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we think, okay, that's normative around here. 245 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:42,796 Speaker 1: Maybe it's not a big deal if I'd throw my 246 00:14:42,876 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 1: banan appeal on the ground. If we see somebody else 247 00:14:45,836 --> 00:14:49,316 Speaker 1: put some trash in the correct receptacle, you know, we're 248 00:14:49,356 --> 00:14:52,716 Speaker 1: more likely to follow suit. So one of the things 249 00:14:52,716 --> 00:14:55,716 Speaker 1: that comes out of this tendency for people to observe 250 00:14:55,716 --> 00:14:58,636 Speaker 1: our behaviors more than we realize and then follow suit 251 00:14:58,956 --> 00:15:02,356 Speaker 1: with our behaviors more than we realize is that every 252 00:15:02,356 --> 00:15:05,836 Speaker 1: time we make a decision or engage in a behavior, 253 00:15:06,356 --> 00:15:09,756 Speaker 1: that decision or behavior actually has too a fact. We 254 00:15:09,916 --> 00:15:13,716 Speaker 1: have a direct effect on our environment that particular decision 255 00:15:13,956 --> 00:15:17,876 Speaker 1: that we've taken, but there's also this secondary indirect effect 256 00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:20,716 Speaker 1: that could be even bigger, and that indirect effect is 257 00:15:20,836 --> 00:15:23,596 Speaker 1: all the people who observed us do that thing who 258 00:15:23,636 --> 00:15:27,116 Speaker 1: are now impacted by it. And this is something called 259 00:15:27,156 --> 00:15:31,236 Speaker 1: behavior contagion, where basically, when we see somebody else do something, 260 00:15:31,636 --> 00:15:35,916 Speaker 1: we're more likely to do it ourselves. So one example is, 261 00:15:36,236 --> 00:15:41,436 Speaker 1: say I schedule a destination wedding. I'm not just responsible 262 00:15:41,476 --> 00:15:45,676 Speaker 1: for the carbon footprint of my own wedding, but also 263 00:15:45,876 --> 00:15:47,876 Speaker 1: for the fact that everybody who comes to my wedding 264 00:15:48,116 --> 00:15:50,796 Speaker 1: and has an amazing time wants to have their own 265 00:15:50,836 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 1: destination wedding, and now there are all these other destination 266 00:15:54,676 --> 00:15:57,996 Speaker 1: weddings who are producing their own carbon footprint, and then 267 00:15:58,196 --> 00:16:01,956 Speaker 1: those weddings spawn more people having destination weddings, and so 268 00:16:01,996 --> 00:16:05,076 Speaker 1: there isn't just the one decision of my wedding, but 269 00:16:05,156 --> 00:16:08,316 Speaker 1: in fact there is this effect where it continues on 270 00:16:08,436 --> 00:16:13,476 Speaker 1: and on. After the break, Vanessa teaches us how to 271 00:16:13,516 --> 00:16:17,916 Speaker 1: navigate situations when we're intentionally trying to influence others. She 272 00:16:17,996 --> 00:16:20,836 Speaker 1: also shares a cautionary note about how we can wield 273 00:16:20,836 --> 00:16:24,036 Speaker 1: our influence more carefully. We'll be back in a moment 274 00:16:24,116 --> 00:16:35,396 Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. So far, we've talked 275 00:16:35,396 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 1: about ways in which we have what I was calling 276 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:42,876 Speaker 1: before more passive forms of influence, the way that we 277 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:46,436 Speaker 1: can influence people literally just by showing up. But of 278 00:16:46,476 --> 00:16:50,396 Speaker 1: course there are times when we're more actively trying to 279 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:54,756 Speaker 1: influence people. So, for example, sometimes we need people to 280 00:16:54,796 --> 00:16:59,156 Speaker 1: do things for us, and it can be extremely uncomfortable 281 00:16:59,276 --> 00:17:03,236 Speaker 1: and nerve racking to make these kinds of requests. What 282 00:17:03,316 --> 00:17:07,196 Speaker 1: does the research say about how we should be navigating 283 00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:11,516 Speaker 1: these kinds of situations. This is such a fascinating topic 284 00:17:11,756 --> 00:17:15,036 Speaker 1: because it seems like such a simple thing to ask 285 00:17:15,036 --> 00:17:18,476 Speaker 1: someone for something. If I want something, you know, be 286 00:17:18,796 --> 00:17:21,556 Speaker 1: a raise, or I just need a favor from a friend, 287 00:17:21,916 --> 00:17:24,436 Speaker 1: I should be able to just go ask. And yet 288 00:17:24,716 --> 00:17:27,316 Speaker 1: we all know that it's just not that simple, that 289 00:17:27,476 --> 00:17:32,196 Speaker 1: asking can be so painful and awkward. But what we 290 00:17:32,316 --> 00:17:36,596 Speaker 1: found in our research is that, in fact, people are 291 00:17:36,676 --> 00:17:39,676 Speaker 1: much more likely to agree to do things for us 292 00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:43,076 Speaker 1: when we ask for them than we expect. So this 293 00:17:43,276 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 1: idea that people are disagreeable and when we ask for something, 294 00:17:47,876 --> 00:17:50,716 Speaker 1: what we're trying to do is to get to yes 295 00:17:50,876 --> 00:17:53,756 Speaker 1: or even get past no. Right, it's just not true. 296 00:17:54,236 --> 00:17:58,356 Speaker 1: In fact, people tend to default to being agreeable, but 297 00:17:58,396 --> 00:18:01,676 Speaker 1: we don't realize that until we start asking more and 298 00:18:01,756 --> 00:18:04,076 Speaker 1: suddenly we realize that people are actually much more likely 299 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:07,276 Speaker 1: to agree than we expect. And you found this during 300 00:18:07,316 --> 00:18:10,676 Speaker 1: your early years as a right. Yeah, When I was 301 00:18:10,716 --> 00:18:15,116 Speaker 1: a graduate student at Columbia, Frank Flynn a professor at Columbia, 302 00:18:15,156 --> 00:18:18,076 Speaker 1: and I we're running a study where we wanted a 303 00:18:18,116 --> 00:18:22,076 Speaker 1: diverse adult participant sample, and so I left the Columbia 304 00:18:22,116 --> 00:18:24,476 Speaker 1: campus and went down to Penn Station every day and 305 00:18:24,596 --> 00:18:26,956 Speaker 1: asked people to fill out my survey for the study. 306 00:18:27,476 --> 00:18:32,556 Speaker 1: And it was so painful going up to people. Yes, 307 00:18:32,636 --> 00:18:36,956 Speaker 1: I can understand. It was just torturous going up to 308 00:18:36,996 --> 00:18:39,036 Speaker 1: people over and over and being like, will you fill 309 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:42,076 Speaker 1: out my survey? Will you fill out my survey? And 310 00:18:42,156 --> 00:18:46,116 Speaker 1: so when the study was completed and Frank Flynn and 311 00:18:46,236 --> 00:18:49,596 Speaker 1: I started looking at the data, it didn't work out, 312 00:18:49,836 --> 00:18:52,476 Speaker 1: and I was particularly devastated because it had been so 313 00:18:52,556 --> 00:18:55,596 Speaker 1: painful to collect that data. Yeah, And so I was 314 00:18:55,636 --> 00:18:58,036 Speaker 1: describing this to Frank and saying, oh my god, I 315 00:18:58,116 --> 00:19:01,036 Speaker 1: just I can't believe it after all that, and he 316 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:03,276 Speaker 1: kind of looked at the data and was like, can 317 00:19:03,316 --> 00:19:05,756 Speaker 1: you say more about what all that is because I'm 318 00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:08,676 Speaker 1: looking and in fact, it looks like most people were 319 00:19:08,676 --> 00:19:12,076 Speaker 1: saying yeah to you where the nose particularly bad? And 320 00:19:12,156 --> 00:19:14,716 Speaker 1: I was like, no, actually, people were pretty polite when 321 00:19:14,716 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 1: they said no. Most people were pretty happy to help. 322 00:19:18,436 --> 00:19:21,396 Speaker 1: And so we realized that maybe that was the big 323 00:19:21,476 --> 00:19:26,116 Speaker 1: finding that in fact, the way influence was in my head, 324 00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:29,876 Speaker 1: the way it was to ask someone for something so painful, 325 00:19:29,996 --> 00:19:35,756 Speaker 1: so awkward, actually wasn't as awful in reality. Yeah, I'm 326 00:19:35,836 --> 00:19:38,916 Speaker 1: just thinking back to when I was an undergrad doing research, 327 00:19:39,036 --> 00:19:41,516 Speaker 1: and that was during the period of my life where 328 00:19:41,516 --> 00:19:43,636 Speaker 1: I studied non human primates, and so we'd end up 329 00:19:43,676 --> 00:19:46,876 Speaker 1: going to this island where the monkey to human ratio 330 00:19:46,996 --> 00:19:49,676 Speaker 1: is five hundred to one, and you can't like ask 331 00:19:49,756 --> 00:19:52,716 Speaker 1: a monkey, hey, hey, monkey, do you want to participated 332 00:19:52,756 --> 00:19:54,796 Speaker 1: by experiment? And so what we do is like we 333 00:19:54,916 --> 00:19:57,756 Speaker 1: walk around with little fruits like coconuts and apples and 334 00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:00,436 Speaker 1: stuff to try to lure them into the experiment, which 335 00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:03,356 Speaker 1: was a whole different kind of asking. And I thought 336 00:20:03,396 --> 00:20:07,836 Speaker 1: that was already a fairly painful experience, but it still 337 00:20:07,876 --> 00:20:10,316 Speaker 1: fell short of how uncomfortable it was to ask adults 338 00:20:10,396 --> 00:20:14,396 Speaker 1: a year later in my visual perception lab to fill 339 00:20:14,396 --> 00:20:16,356 Speaker 1: out a survey for me in exchange for candy or 340 00:20:16,356 --> 00:20:19,036 Speaker 1: whatever it was that I was asking of them. So, yeah, 341 00:20:19,196 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 1: that's amazing. It's hard. It's hard for us humans. That 342 00:20:22,636 --> 00:20:24,916 Speaker 1: needs to be my next study where I just have 343 00:20:24,996 --> 00:20:28,476 Speaker 1: people either ask a person or some sort of non 344 00:20:28,556 --> 00:20:32,396 Speaker 1: humans a recess of a caste exactly bring me back. 345 00:20:32,956 --> 00:20:38,116 Speaker 1: Lots of screeching on that island. So backtracking a little bit, 346 00:20:38,156 --> 00:20:42,956 Speaker 1: when it comes to people's willingness to say yes to 347 00:20:43,156 --> 00:20:45,956 Speaker 1: things more than we think you said, that can also 348 00:20:46,356 --> 00:20:49,356 Speaker 1: change our approach to asking people for things. I think 349 00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:53,756 Speaker 1: the two main risks of underestimating our influence and others 350 00:20:54,036 --> 00:20:57,996 Speaker 1: willingness to do things for us. Is one that we 351 00:20:58,116 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 1: might be overly assertive, right if I think that you're 352 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:03,476 Speaker 1: not going to be open to my influence attempt, if 353 00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:05,516 Speaker 1: you're going to say no, then I'm going to come 354 00:21:05,556 --> 00:21:07,956 Speaker 1: in guns blazing trying to push for what I want. 355 00:21:09,236 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 1: Other risk is that I assume that you're just going 356 00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:14,316 Speaker 1: to say no, and so I don't even bother asking, 357 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:18,636 Speaker 1: or I ask for too little, or I ask indirectly 358 00:21:18,676 --> 00:21:20,796 Speaker 1: by sort of hinting, so I don't really run the 359 00:21:20,876 --> 00:21:23,716 Speaker 1: risk that you're actually going to reject me. And of 360 00:21:23,756 --> 00:21:27,516 Speaker 1: course all those are also in effective ways of influencing 361 00:21:27,516 --> 00:21:30,276 Speaker 1: other people. So it really keeps you from hitting that 362 00:21:30,316 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 1: sort of perfect middle ground where you ask directly, you 363 00:21:34,516 --> 00:21:37,476 Speaker 1: ask for what you think you deserve, but you don't 364 00:21:37,556 --> 00:21:39,836 Speaker 1: do it in this overly assertive way that people don't 365 00:21:39,836 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: respond well too. So there are studies showing that people 366 00:21:45,196 --> 00:21:47,556 Speaker 1: are twice as likely to agree to things they're being 367 00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 1: asked then we think they are, and so we just 368 00:21:50,716 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 1: overestimate in a lot of cases the likelihood of rejection. 369 00:21:54,916 --> 00:21:57,236 Speaker 1: And you and your research team just ran such a 370 00:21:57,276 --> 00:22:00,156 Speaker 1: clever study where you got people quite outside their comfort zone, 371 00:22:00,196 --> 00:22:03,196 Speaker 1: I would say yeah. So one day we came up 372 00:22:03,236 --> 00:22:07,116 Speaker 1: with the idea of sending our participants into libraries with 373 00:22:07,156 --> 00:22:08,996 Speaker 1: a book that we made to look like a live 374 00:22:09,396 --> 00:22:13,956 Speaker 1: book and asking people to vandalize the book. So they 375 00:22:13,956 --> 00:22:17,196 Speaker 1: would go up to people in libraries and say, Hey, 376 00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:19,956 Speaker 1: I'm playing a prank of my friend. Will you please 377 00:22:19,996 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 1: just write the word pickle and pan in this library book. 378 00:22:22,876 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 1: Of course, they thought most people would say no, yeah, 379 00:22:25,316 --> 00:22:29,276 Speaker 1: but when they actually made the request, most people said yes. 380 00:22:29,916 --> 00:22:31,316 Speaker 1: We didn't even think it was going to work. We 381 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:34,636 Speaker 1: were a surprise as our research participants. This is crazy, 382 00:22:34,756 --> 00:22:36,996 Speaker 1: there's no way the study is going to work. And 383 00:22:37,116 --> 00:22:40,796 Speaker 1: yet the majority of people ended up saying yes, yeah. 384 00:22:40,796 --> 00:22:43,796 Speaker 1: And there's an interesting mechanism at play that's leading people 385 00:22:43,796 --> 00:22:47,116 Speaker 1: to say yes that we might not fully appreciate. Do 386 00:22:47,156 --> 00:22:52,916 Speaker 1: you mind talking about what researchers call insinuation anxiety? Sure? So. 387 00:22:53,156 --> 00:22:58,716 Speaker 1: Insinuation anxiety is this fear we have of insinuating something 388 00:22:58,796 --> 00:23:04,036 Speaker 1: negative about another person. So, for example, if someone were 389 00:23:04,076 --> 00:23:06,916 Speaker 1: to ask me to borrow my cell phone and I 390 00:23:06,956 --> 00:23:09,996 Speaker 1: said no, what does that say about what I think 391 00:23:10,036 --> 00:23:12,636 Speaker 1: of them? That I don't trust them to give my 392 00:23:12,676 --> 00:23:15,316 Speaker 1: phone back, that I think they might do something weird 393 00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:18,116 Speaker 1: with it, that I don't think that they look like 394 00:23:18,156 --> 00:23:21,156 Speaker 1: a nice person that I want to help out. There's 395 00:23:21,196 --> 00:23:24,916 Speaker 1: so many worries there about what saying no might insinuate, 396 00:23:25,516 --> 00:23:30,076 Speaker 1: and we're really averse to doing things that are socially risky, 397 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:35,516 Speaker 1: potentially making someone feel bad or awkward, or suggesting that 398 00:23:35,556 --> 00:23:38,556 Speaker 1: we're not a helpful person. And you can see how 399 00:23:38,596 --> 00:23:41,476 Speaker 1: powerful this effective is because even in a case where 400 00:23:41,516 --> 00:23:44,396 Speaker 1: people are being asked to do what most of society 401 00:23:44,436 --> 00:23:47,476 Speaker 1: would agree is an immoral act, which is vandalizing a 402 00:23:47,556 --> 00:23:51,276 Speaker 1: public library book, their fear of insinuating that they don't 403 00:23:51,276 --> 00:23:54,036 Speaker 1: trust this person is so strong that a lot more 404 00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:56,356 Speaker 1: people than we would think are actually willing to go ahead. 405 00:23:56,916 --> 00:23:58,796 Speaker 1: I think that this shows up in a lot of 406 00:23:58,836 --> 00:24:03,276 Speaker 1: really consequential situations. If I'm not willing to insinuate that 407 00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:06,036 Speaker 1: you're a bad, untrustworthy person, if you're asking me to 408 00:24:06,076 --> 00:24:09,716 Speaker 1: vandalize a library book, if there's any ambiguity about some 409 00:24:09,836 --> 00:24:12,996 Speaker 1: comment that you make that's inappropriate, then what am I insinuating? 410 00:24:13,036 --> 00:24:16,156 Speaker 1: If I speak up in that situation so that fear 411 00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:18,676 Speaker 1: can cause us to hold back from saying all sorts 412 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:21,796 Speaker 1: of things that we maybe should say. Yeah. So, I 413 00:24:21,796 --> 00:24:24,556 Speaker 1: think this is such an important mechanism to talk about 414 00:24:24,636 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 1: insinuation anxiety, because we might have all this influence that 415 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:30,956 Speaker 1: we don't realize we have, but we never want to 416 00:24:30,996 --> 00:24:34,676 Speaker 1: misuse that influence. And so given that we know people 417 00:24:34,716 --> 00:24:37,556 Speaker 1: are sometimes saying yes to us simply to allay their 418 00:24:37,596 --> 00:24:41,756 Speaker 1: own anxieties, their own social anxieties, we should be quite 419 00:24:41,796 --> 00:24:44,396 Speaker 1: careful of what we ask of people, right, because they 420 00:24:44,436 --> 00:24:47,236 Speaker 1: might be inclined to say yes, but not always for 421 00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:50,036 Speaker 1: the right reasons. That's right. I think a lot of 422 00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:52,596 Speaker 1: people assume the takeaway from my research is that we 423 00:24:52,636 --> 00:24:55,356 Speaker 1: should just ask all the time for anything we want 424 00:24:55,796 --> 00:24:58,676 Speaker 1: because people are more likely to give it than we think, 425 00:24:59,076 --> 00:25:01,996 Speaker 1: when in fact, if part of the mechanism there is 426 00:25:02,036 --> 00:25:05,636 Speaker 1: that people are often saying yes because it's so hard 427 00:25:05,676 --> 00:25:09,436 Speaker 1: to say no because they have anxiety about I know, 428 00:25:09,516 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 1: to us, then really it's not about just asking for 429 00:25:13,316 --> 00:25:16,236 Speaker 1: anything we want. It's about being more mindful about what 430 00:25:16,276 --> 00:25:21,076 Speaker 1: we ask for. Yeah, being judicious. Yeah, All of this 431 00:25:21,196 --> 00:25:24,516 Speaker 1: research is just about increasing our awareness of our influence. 432 00:25:24,556 --> 00:25:27,236 Speaker 1: It's not saying use it more, use it less. It's saying, 433 00:25:27,796 --> 00:25:30,836 Speaker 1: be aware of all the spaces in which that influence exists, 434 00:25:30,876 --> 00:25:33,396 Speaker 1: and then use your moral judgment to figure out what's 435 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:38,436 Speaker 1: appropriate in any given situation. Exactly another finding that I 436 00:25:38,476 --> 00:25:40,796 Speaker 1: loved reading about in your book. This is such a 437 00:25:40,796 --> 00:25:44,956 Speaker 1: hopeful message, Vanessa, that we regularly make better and less 438 00:25:44,996 --> 00:25:48,836 Speaker 1: awkward impressions on people than we think, and on the 439 00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:53,236 Speaker 1: whole people feel more positively towards us, which is powerful 440 00:25:53,276 --> 00:25:56,156 Speaker 1: because we know from research that when someone likes us more, 441 00:25:56,356 --> 00:25:59,316 Speaker 1: we do have a greater ability to influence them. You 442 00:25:59,396 --> 00:26:03,236 Speaker 1: call this the liking gap, right, the difference between our 443 00:26:03,276 --> 00:26:05,076 Speaker 1: perception of how much people like us and how much 444 00:26:05,076 --> 00:26:07,636 Speaker 1: they actually do like us. That's right. This is more 445 00:26:07,716 --> 00:26:10,916 Speaker 1: research by Erica booth Be on this finding called the 446 00:26:10,996 --> 00:26:14,956 Speaker 1: liking gap. And what she does is she brings people 447 00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:19,316 Speaker 1: together and has them just have a simple conversation. Then 448 00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:21,756 Speaker 1: she lets them go their separate ways and gives them 449 00:26:21,836 --> 00:26:24,156 Speaker 1: some questionnaires and ask them how much do you think 450 00:26:24,156 --> 00:26:27,956 Speaker 1: that other person liked you and enjoyed that conversation? How 451 00:26:28,036 --> 00:26:29,956 Speaker 1: much do you think that they'd want to hang out 452 00:26:29,956 --> 00:26:32,516 Speaker 1: with you again in the future. But she also asked 453 00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:34,876 Speaker 1: them how much did you like that other person, and 454 00:26:34,916 --> 00:26:38,516 Speaker 1: what she finds is this gap in our perceptions, and 455 00:26:38,676 --> 00:26:42,676 Speaker 1: that gap between our perceptions of how much we think 456 00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:45,636 Speaker 1: the other person liked us and how much they report 457 00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:49,236 Speaker 1: having liked us is twelve percent. So people like us 458 00:26:49,396 --> 00:26:52,956 Speaker 1: twelve percent more than we think that they did. And 459 00:26:52,996 --> 00:26:57,036 Speaker 1: this is consistent across the board, but it's especially true 460 00:26:57,116 --> 00:27:01,116 Speaker 1: for introverts. So people who are particularly shy and worried 461 00:27:01,116 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 1: about how they come across in a conversation are actually 462 00:27:03,956 --> 00:27:07,436 Speaker 1: doing much better than they tend to think. You know, 463 00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:10,676 Speaker 1: I'm sure your book has empowered so many people by 464 00:27:10,676 --> 00:27:13,876 Speaker 1: helping them realize the influence they already have. And as 465 00:27:13,876 --> 00:27:15,676 Speaker 1: we've talked about, it's a double edged sword. You want 466 00:27:15,676 --> 00:27:18,156 Speaker 1: to moderate your behaviors in certain cases, and you want 467 00:27:18,156 --> 00:27:21,276 Speaker 1: to lean in to your behaviors in other cases. Any 468 00:27:21,316 --> 00:27:24,396 Speaker 1: personal stories, Vanessa, of ways that it's changed your approach 469 00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:27,636 Speaker 1: to try and influence people or not try every being 470 00:27:27,636 --> 00:27:29,316 Speaker 1: aware that you might be influencing them in ways you 471 00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:30,876 Speaker 1: didn't want to. I'm just curious to how this has 472 00:27:30,876 --> 00:27:33,916 Speaker 1: affected your personal life. One of the things I talk 473 00:27:33,956 --> 00:27:37,956 Speaker 1: about in the book is how much more expressing gratitude 474 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:41,356 Speaker 1: means to other people than we tend to think or realize, 475 00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:44,316 Speaker 1: and so I'd say, if there's one thing that's really 476 00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:47,836 Speaker 1: impacted my life, it's that I try to express gratitude more. 477 00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:51,716 Speaker 1: And even this happened just last week. So I am 478 00:27:51,916 --> 00:27:54,476 Speaker 1: writing a new syllabus for a new course I'm teaching, 479 00:27:55,116 --> 00:27:58,196 Speaker 1: and I was thinking about how when I was a 480 00:27:58,316 --> 00:28:01,876 Speaker 1: first year in college, so twenty five years ago, I 481 00:28:01,956 --> 00:28:04,476 Speaker 1: took this amazing course, and I want this course to 482 00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:08,676 Speaker 1: feel like that course. And I was thinking about someone's class, 483 00:28:08,716 --> 00:28:12,476 Speaker 1: another person's class from twenty five years ago that was 484 00:28:12,516 --> 00:28:15,996 Speaker 1: still impacting me today. And because I know that gratitude 485 00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:18,516 Speaker 1: means so much, I sent him a thank you note. 486 00:28:18,676 --> 00:28:20,476 Speaker 1: I tracked down his email. He had already moved to 487 00:28:20,476 --> 00:28:23,236 Speaker 1: another school. I said, thank you so much. Your course 488 00:28:23,276 --> 00:28:25,076 Speaker 1: meant so much. I'm thinking about it twenty five years 489 00:28:25,116 --> 00:28:27,916 Speaker 1: later and trying to incorporate it into my syllabus. He 490 00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:31,036 Speaker 1: wrote back this lovely email. We had a back and 491 00:28:31,076 --> 00:28:33,556 Speaker 1: forth kind of just updating each other on our lives. 492 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:35,396 Speaker 1: It was like, let's stay in touch. And it was 493 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:39,596 Speaker 1: just such an amazing experience that went from I learned 494 00:28:39,636 --> 00:28:42,236 Speaker 1: something from someone, which is awesome, but not just that 495 00:28:42,596 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 1: I appreciated how longstanding that impact was and got to 496 00:28:47,396 --> 00:28:49,636 Speaker 1: give something to him in the form of their gratitude 497 00:28:49,636 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 1: and received something back and the fact that I felt 498 00:28:51,956 --> 00:28:53,636 Speaker 1: so good about it. So it became such a more 499 00:28:53,956 --> 00:28:58,156 Speaker 1: wonderful situation. And we hold back so often because we 500 00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:00,876 Speaker 1: worry about saying the right thing. We think that we're 501 00:29:00,876 --> 00:29:03,156 Speaker 1: going to write this awkward email and the other person's 502 00:29:03,156 --> 00:29:05,996 Speaker 1: going to feel weird, But in fact, the other person 503 00:29:06,036 --> 00:29:08,156 Speaker 1: doesn't really care how you say. It gets back to 504 00:29:08,356 --> 00:29:11,676 Speaker 1: not worrying about in articulate right. No one cares how 505 00:29:11,716 --> 00:29:14,356 Speaker 1: you express gratitude. If you're expressing gratitude to them, it 506 00:29:14,356 --> 00:29:50,556 Speaker 1: just feels good. Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join 507 00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:53,836 Speaker 1: me next week when I talk with science writer Florence Williams. 508 00:29:54,556 --> 00:29:57,356 Speaker 1: After her twenty five year marriage came to a sudden end, 509 00:29:57,796 --> 00:30:00,636 Speaker 1: Florence went on a quest to understand how heartbreak was 510 00:30:00,676 --> 00:30:04,636 Speaker 1: affecting her mind and body. Heartbreak is one of the 511 00:30:04,716 --> 00:30:08,556 Speaker 1: hidden landmines of human existence, and we don't really take 512 00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:12,316 Speaker 1: it seriously enough. It's so disorienting in a way that's 513 00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:14,956 Speaker 1: kind of like a deep freak out, and you feel 514 00:30:14,956 --> 00:30:17,756 Speaker 1: it emotionally. And it turns out our immune systems and 515 00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:20,596 Speaker 1: our bodies are really paying very close attention to that 516 00:30:20,716 --> 00:30:23,556 Speaker 1: sense of freak out, so I had this tremendous urgency 517 00:30:23,556 --> 00:30:35,876 Speaker 1: to try to understand it. A Slight Change of Plans 518 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:39,116 Speaker 1: is created, written an executive produced by me Maya Schunker. 519 00:30:39,716 --> 00:30:43,316 Speaker 1: The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our 520 00:30:43,356 --> 00:30:48,036 Speaker 1: senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer Andrew Vestola, 521 00:30:48,116 --> 00:30:52,316 Speaker 1: and our associate producer Sarah McCrae. Louis Skara wrote our 522 00:30:52,356 --> 00:30:55,596 Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 523 00:30:56,436 --> 00:30:59,356 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industry, 524 00:30:59,556 --> 00:31:02,876 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 525 00:31:03,156 --> 00:31:07,396 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 526 00:31:07,436 --> 00:31:10,556 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker.