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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time to

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Speaker 2: go into the vault for an older episode of the show.

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Speaker 2: This one originally published October nineteenth, twenty twenty three, and

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Speaker 2: it is about the strange and supernatural cats of Japanese tradition.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's dive right in.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 2: And it is October on Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

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Speaker 2: which means the Uncanny Pods continue. And today we're back

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Speaker 2: with part two in a series we started on Tuesday

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Speaker 2: about the monster cats of Japanese legend the cat yo kai.

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Speaker 2: So brief of what we talked about last time. We

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Speaker 2: covered a bit about the general role of cats in

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Speaker 2: Japanese history in Japanese culture, and then we discussed a

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Speaker 2: couple of famous cat yokai altered cats in monster form,

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Speaker 2: including the neko mata, which may be a sort of

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Speaker 2: giant monster cat or general large predator of the mountain forests,

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Speaker 2: or maybe a cat that reaches a certain age, like

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Speaker 2: a domestic house cat that reaches a certain age, maybe

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Speaker 2: the age of one hundred, and then transforms into a monster.

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Speaker 2: We also talked about the bakean eko, a sort of

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Speaker 2: a moral shape shifting cat that may play pranks, may

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Speaker 2: drink blood, may exact deadly revenge, etc. Does that about

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Speaker 2: cover it.

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Speaker 1: Rob, Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And an important thing to

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Speaker 1: keep in mind, this is something we were talking about

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Speaker 1: off mic before we came in here, is that there's

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Speaker 1: a certain amount of overlap between these different classifications. I mean,

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Speaker 1: more generally, as we've often discussed with folklore and legends

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Speaker 1: and mythology and even religion, that there's not often like

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Speaker 1: a strong canonizing, codifying force that is coming in and

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Speaker 1: saying like, Okay, this is this creature and this is

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Speaker 1: this other creature. You know, things shift over time, ideas merge,

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Speaker 1: ideas influence one another, And I mean really, if you

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Speaker 1: want to look outside of folklore and mythology and legend

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Speaker 1: to find examples of this, I mean look no further

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Speaker 1: than say like comic book characters, where like a character

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Speaker 1: like Lex Luthor or the Riddler you know, have changed

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Speaker 1: multiple times over the years to reflect different ideas in

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Speaker 1: popular culture, with like Lex Luthor becoming less of a

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Speaker 1: mad scientist in a mecha suit and becoming like a

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Speaker 1: corporate businessman and so forth. The Riddler suddenly is the

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Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer in recent films, you know that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh. I think that's a great comparison. But even

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Speaker 2: in that case, at least, the things you're talking about

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Speaker 2: are fixed media documents like you know, comic books and films,

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Speaker 2: which continue to exist in a fixed form. When something

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Speaker 2: is sort of oral legend and part of a culture,

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Speaker 2: there's almost a limitless kind of free flow of the

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Speaker 2: boundaries of the concept.

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Speaker 1: Right right, there's no like central publication that is to

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Speaker 1: some extent controlling the form. And you can argue just

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Speaker 1: how much even something like The Riddler is controlled by it,

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Speaker 1: say DC comics, because ultimately have fan fiction, fan art,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. But yeah, outside of that, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with situations where things are just growing organically, often

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Speaker 1: in oral storytelling traditions, and then it gets influenced by

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Speaker 1: various artistic renditions and so forth.

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Speaker 2: So today we're going to be talking about some more

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Speaker 2: Japanese stories of magical cats. Not all monster cats, but

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Speaker 2: some of them are monster cats. But before we get

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Speaker 2: into that, I wanted to look at something more broadly

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Speaker 2: about the perception of cats as powerful beings. So in

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Speaker 2: multiple sources I was reading for the series, there would

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Speaker 2: be little comments and asides that were variations on the

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Speaker 2: perception that cats just seem to have some kind of obscure,

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Speaker 2: hidden power, that something about the nature of the cat

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Speaker 2: suggests there's more than meets the eye. And I find

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Speaker 2: myself intuitively very much in agreement with that. But I

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Speaker 2: would back up and say, even before you get to

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Speaker 2: the assumption about magical powers, I think there is just

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Speaker 2: something about a cat that suggests power of some sort.

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Speaker 2: Like despite the fact that cats are Internet famous for

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Speaker 2: being you know, goofy goobers, cute, goofy goobers, no doubt

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Speaker 2: they often are just as often when, especially when I'm

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Speaker 2: in the physical presence of a cat, I often feel

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Speaker 2: that a house cat is commanding a strange, mysterious power

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Speaker 2: and respect. And I was talking to my wife Rachel

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Speaker 2: about this, and she said, basically she had the same feeling.

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Speaker 2: She said, when in the presence of a cat, it's

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Speaker 2: this kind of a creature that's holding something over you. Specifically,

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Speaker 2: in her case, she talks about the feeling of the

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Speaker 2: need to impress a cat like this is an animal

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Speaker 2: that is passing judgment on you, and you are failing,

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Speaker 2: and there might be some kind of bad consequence to

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Speaker 2: the fact that you are not standing up in the

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Speaker 2: eyes of the cat. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you go over to a friend's house

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Speaker 1: and they have a dog, the dog may initially bark

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Speaker 1: at you, but you know, as is often the case

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Speaker 1: in my experience, then the owner will say no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: Hugo or whatever the dog's name is. This person is fine,

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Speaker 1: this person's fine, And eventually, in my experience, the dog

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Speaker 1: tends to listen to this and it's like, okay, all right,

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Speaker 1: he's fine the cat. You know, the best you can

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Speaker 1: do when someone comes over is say like, look, I

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Speaker 1: have nothing to do with how this cat is going

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Speaker 1: to receive you. I can give you advice, I can

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Speaker 1: tell you what not to do, but ultimately it's out

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Speaker 1: of my.

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Speaker 2: Hands, that's right. Yeah, you know, I'm not the boss

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Speaker 2: here in a way. Ye, So I can sense why

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Speaker 2: people in various cultures throughout history might start to wonder

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Speaker 2: if the domestic cat is brimming with bloodthirsty sorcery, and

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Speaker 2: all it would take is that same feeling. I have

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Speaker 2: that intuitive sense that the cat is powerful for some reason,

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Speaker 2: but paired with the observation that that sense of power

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Speaker 2: is incongruous with a cat's actual physical size and strength.

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Speaker 2: Like you know, that sense of power cannot be justified

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Speaker 2: through what a cat can literally actually do, So the

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Speaker 2: mind fills with magic. And I will add that, of course,

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Speaker 2: the comparison to dogs is unavoidable. I love dogs. I

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Speaker 2: am more of a dog person than a cat person,

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Speaker 2: and I would not say this about dogs at all.

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Speaker 2: This seems totally unique to cats. Dogs do not seem

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Speaker 2: to have hidden power or magic in this way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as a cat person, I find that when I

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Speaker 1: encounter a new dog, it's like things often push to

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Speaker 1: one extreme or another. You know, a dog is either

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Speaker 1: suspicious or hostile towards you, or they are just instantly

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Speaker 1: already your friend and want to, you know, get all

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Speaker 1: up in your business and see if you have treats

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Speaker 1: and so forth, And of course you know, on the

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Speaker 1: thread end of the spectrum. Obviously, as in my first example,

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Speaker 1: a lot of times it's like yeah, the initial barking

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Speaker 1: at a stranger, but then they're like, oh, okay, they're fine.

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Speaker 1: But with the cat, there's often there often seems to

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Speaker 1: be and again this is general, this is generality. Then

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Speaker 1: they're going to be individual exceptions with the cats, as

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Speaker 1: there are with the dogs. But they seem to occupy

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Speaker 1: this middle ground, you know, where it's like a no friends,

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Speaker 1: no enemies approach to relations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's good. But anyways, so this got me wondering, like,

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Speaker 2: why is it that cats seem powerful in this way?

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Speaker 2: I don't know if they seem this way to everyone,

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Speaker 2: but I think at least a lot of people must

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Speaker 2: share this feeling I have. And this turned out to

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Speaker 2: be a difficult question question to answer in a way

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Speaker 2: that felt really solid and empirically justified. I don't think

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Speaker 2: I have a great answer to this question, but I've

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Speaker 2: turned up a few possible interesting ideas. So the first

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Speaker 2: place I look to try to get some empirically justified

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Speaker 2: threads on this is I was wondering, well, what are

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Speaker 2: the behavioral markers of power in humans that we might

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Speaker 2: just be sort of mapping on to the behavior of cats.

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Speaker 2: And this is great because you know, the whatever government

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Speaker 2: agencies or whatever are tracking my internet behavior must now

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Speaker 2: think I'm about to start a second career as one

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Speaker 2: of those psychopath dating advice coaches, because I'm here searching

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Speaker 2: for studies on what makes humans seem powerful? How do

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Speaker 2: humans signal dominance in high status? So TikTok, masculinity, priesthood

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Speaker 2: here I come.

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Speaker 1: I imagine there's a lot out there that equates dog ownership

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Speaker 1: with strength and cat ownership with sensitivity. These are, of

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Speaker 1: course both ridiculous stereotypes, but you do see this sort

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Speaker 1: of thing reflected, like, look at this guy. He's got

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Speaker 1: a big dog. Must be must be a really powerful fellow.

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Speaker 1: Look this, this creature is clearly physically powerful, and it

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Speaker 1: just works for him. You know, it's observient to him.

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Speaker 2: Where is the boss?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Whereas the cat ownership, you know, is often interpreted

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Speaker 1: in the opposite direction.

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Speaker 2: I guess.

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Speaker 1: One of the seasonally appropriate examples is, of course, when

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Speaker 1: when people realized or I mean, I think this was

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Speaker 1: always kind of out in the open, but when people

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Speaker 1: realize that that metal musician Glenn Danzig is a cat

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Speaker 1: person and has cats and buys cat letter, right, people

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Speaker 1: had a lot of fun with that concept because he

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Speaker 1: pushes this hyper masculine identity out there, right, and so

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Speaker 1: it just dealing with like those really like outrageous gender stereotypes.

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Speaker 1: It was like, it seemed counterintuitive that this individual would

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Speaker 1: have a cat, But then again, when you get into

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Speaker 1: all the spooky stuff, right, it seems perfectly logical that

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Speaker 1: he would have multiple black cats.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I could have told you Danzig was

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Speaker 2: a cat person. I don't know how I knew, but

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Speaker 2: I knew. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think there are old photos of them with with

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Speaker 1: with cats, long before the kitty or shopping photo went viral.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, what did I come up with here? Okay?

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Speaker 2: I think about two ideas that are potentially interesting and

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Speaker 2: one that was kind of a failed rabbit trail. We'll

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Speaker 2: do the failed one first. This idea is about eye contact.

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Speaker 2: I have the impression that something about the way a

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Speaker 2: cat looks at you can feel intimidating, and that there's

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Speaker 2: something about the gaze of a cat that has to

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Speaker 2: do with this feeling of power that I impute to them.

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Speaker 2: And I wondered if this had something to do with

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Speaker 2: our instincts about eye contact. I think it's absolutely clear

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Speaker 2: that eye contact is one of the most potent and

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Speaker 2: complicated elements of human body language. How much you do

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Speaker 2: or don't connect with somebody's gaze, who engages and breaks

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Speaker 2: off eye contact, and when they do it. These gestures

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Speaker 2: that we make with our eyes are interpreted as containing

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Speaker 2: lots of socially relevant information. And if you doubt this,

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Speaker 2: just like, try to have a conversation with somebody, but

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Speaker 2: don't do what feels natural with eye contact, like force

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Speaker 2: yourself to maintain eye contact longer than you naturally would

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Speaker 2: or something. It will I guarantee you immediately become extremely

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable and you will both get freaked out. For whatever reason.

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Speaker 2: Humans just read a lot into how they manage eye

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Speaker 2: contact with each other. There are a bunch of studies

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Speaker 2: about this, and while there might be a lot of

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Speaker 2: different kinds of information encoded in patterns of eye contact,

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Speaker 2: it's clear that one of the important types of social

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Speaker 2: information that we interpret in patterns of eye contact has

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Speaker 2: to do with power, status and dominance. For example, there

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Speaker 2: are studies showing that at least in some human on

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Speaker 2: human scenarios, people perceive to be powerful or in leadership

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Speaker 2: roles are more likely to maintain eye contact once it

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Speaker 2: is initiated, so you meet the powerful person's gaze and

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Speaker 2: the powerful person will stare you down. Conversely, people who

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Speaker 2: are perceived in social interactions as subservient or less powerful

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Speaker 2: are more likely to break off eye contact and avert

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Speaker 2: their gaze from that of a person they perceive as

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Speaker 2: more powerful or higher status than them. So I was

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Speaker 2: thinking about this, and I was thinking, what this does

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Speaker 2: feel like? It squares with experiences I've had with cats

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Speaker 2: where they will just like stare into my eyes until

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Speaker 2: I feel uncomfortable and feel like I have to look away.

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Speaker 2: And this does appear to be a true dynamic for humans.

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Speaker 2: But I couldn't really connect this to any empirical evidence

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Speaker 2: that cats are especially prone to this, that cats are

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Speaker 2: more likely than any other animal to like hit you

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Speaker 2: with a laser beam of unbroken eye contact. Like I said,

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've had this experience before, but I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's generally true of cats. In fact, a

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Speaker 2: lot of veterinary sources I was reading claim exactly the opposite.

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Speaker 2: They say that cats tend to find sustained eye contact

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Speaker 2: threatening and stressful, and that you should not stare right

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Speaker 2: into their eyes because it will bother them, the reasoning

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Speaker 2: being that the cats only whole eye contact with each

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Speaker 2: other when they are preparing to fight, which would mirror

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Speaker 2: the idea that eye contact has something to do with

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Speaker 2: sort of like a you know, dominance and competition in mammals.

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Speaker 2: So if vets and other experts say that cats generally

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Speaker 2: avoid prolonged eye contact with humans, that's sort of the

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Speaker 2: opposite of what I was wondering about. So I don't know,

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Speaker 2: maybe there's something I'm missing, but I think my intuition

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Speaker 2: about cats was just wrong in this case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard that cats favor a narrowing of the

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Speaker 1: eyes and a head nod, though I've never investigated it

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Speaker 1: to see if there's anything substantial backing it up. But

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Speaker 1: in my limited experience, it kind of sort of seems

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Speaker 1: to work. You know, like if I find myself staring

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Speaker 1: at my cats, sometimes I'll do that, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it seems like we have a cool moment. But in general, though,

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Speaker 1: I would say, in my experience is all very subjective, obviously,

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Speaker 1: but cats have very captivating eyes, very large eyes. They're

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Speaker 1: the eyes of a predator, you know, an obligate predator.

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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 1: They also are are eyes that are finely tuned for

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Speaker 1: work in low light environments. They will appear to gleam,

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Speaker 1: you know, in low light environments, which often has an

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Speaker 1: impact on various supernatural interpretations, you know, eyes gleaming in

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Speaker 1: the night, glowing in the night, and so forth. Whereas

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Speaker 1: with dogs, I don't know. Sometimes I encounter dogs and

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Speaker 1: it's like their eyes feel like they're completely dark, you know,

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Speaker 1: like they're like a doll's eyes, but not in like

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Speaker 1: a threatening Jaws fashion, but in a like this is

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Speaker 1: a stuffed animal fashion, like there's no agency here, this,

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Speaker 1: this animal is just just dumb, as I'll get out.

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Speaker 2: I don't feel that about dogs. But yeah, not.

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Speaker 1: All dogs, just some dogs I have encountered. Their eyes

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Speaker 1: feel very dark and like I don't read them as well.

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Speaker 1: Whereas cat eyes are are if they're wide open, certainly

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Speaker 1: they're very intense.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think with some dogs you don't really get

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Speaker 2: to see much other than the pupil, you know, like

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Speaker 2: you're not seeing a lot of the whites of a

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Speaker 2: dog's eye usually, which is something we use to interpret

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Speaker 2: the theory of mind and other humans because, like you know,

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Speaker 2: when we're trying to understand what other humans are thinking,

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Speaker 2: we look at where they're looking with their eyes, and

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Speaker 2: that necessarily involves being able to see the relative proportion

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Speaker 2: of the whites of the eyes on you know, Like

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Speaker 2: so we look at where their pupils are pointed with

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Speaker 2: a dog, Yeah, a lot of times, like the darker

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Speaker 2: part of the eyeball like fills up most of what

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Speaker 2: you can see. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And a theory of mind, of course, is central to

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Speaker 1: all of this. Anybody who's familiar with animals will tell

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Speaker 1: you that, depending on the animal, it may not be

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Speaker 1: the eyes that are the prime indicator of mood and

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Speaker 1: so forth. I mean, ears are especially important in a

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Speaker 1: number of animals, like what are their ears doing, how

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Speaker 1: are their ears positioned? And so forth.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, Okay, so I think my thing about eye contact

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Speaker 2: that's not really going anywhere, But a couple of other

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Speaker 2: ideas I think might be onto something. One is about elevation.

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Speaker 2: It seems to me that cats often seek to occupy

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Speaker 2: high places in the room, on top of shelves and

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Speaker 2: tall furniture in lofted areas, looking down on others, And

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Speaker 2: unlike dogs, cats are climbers. They can actually get up

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Speaker 2: to the high places. So I think even if a

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Speaker 2: dog wanted to be up on top of the shelf.

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Speaker 2: It probably can't get there, but a cat can. Once again,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know if this was a real trend with

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Speaker 2: cats or just my personal, idiosyncratic experience. While I looked

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Speaker 2: it up to see if there are any studies on this,

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Speaker 2: and there are. So I was reading in a book

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Speaker 2: called the Domestic Cat, The Biology of Its Behavior from

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Speaker 2: Cambridge University Press, two thousand, edited by Turner and Bateson,

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Speaker 2: and they're summarizing some research on this, and they say,

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Speaker 2: quote Smith at All nineteen ninety four examined the behavior

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Speaker 2: of cats in shelters with specific reference to their space

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Speaker 2: distribution and object preferences. The cats used structures more often

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Speaker 2: than the floor of their pins, and high structures, which

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Speaker 2: provided vantage points, were used more frequently than low ones.

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Speaker 2: Other studies have confirmed that cats prefer high shelves and

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Speaker 2: enclosed areas. So this is not just my gut feeling.

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Speaker 2: Researchers have investigated this and they found that yes, cats do,

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Speaker 2: on average actually prefer to get up high and look

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Speaker 2: down on everyone else. Now pair that with the fact

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Speaker 2: that I think it's totally clear that humans frequently use

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Speaker 2: physical elevation to signal power. Think of the elevation of

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Speaker 2: the king or the queen's throne over the throne room,

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Speaker 2: the elevation of the judge's bench over the courtroom, the

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Speaker 2: elevation of the preacher's pulpit, etc. It seems like a

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Speaker 2: common cross cultural reality that when we went to signal

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Speaker 2: that a person is powerful and they must be respected

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Speaker 2: and even feared, we put them up on an elevated

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Speaker 2: piece of furniture. So related to this cultural convention, which

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Speaker 2: in turn might proceed from some biological realities, we regard

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Speaker 2: the entity up in a high place looking down on

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Speaker 2: us as a being with power over us. Cats, on

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Speaker 2: average do selectively seek out elevated perches and high vantage points.

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Speaker 2: So I guess that's one possible contributing factor to our

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Speaker 2: perceptions of the strange power of a cat. And by

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Speaker 2: the way, I was thinking, I can't think of any

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Speaker 2: other common domestic animal that is able to do this,

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Speaker 2: Like you know, dogs and all the common farm animals

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Speaker 2: and so forth don't climb up on shelves to peer

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Speaker 2: down at us. The only other one I was thinking

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Speaker 2: of was maybe like the goat, which does like to

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Speaker 2: get up on top of the roofs, of the pins

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Speaker 2: and so forth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was about to ask you if you had

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Speaker 1: forgotten our friend the goat, because the goat seems like

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Speaker 1: the most striking example of animals that like. You go

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Speaker 1: out and you'll see you'll see goats in a field

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Speaker 1: and they have access to a hay baal or some

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Speaker 1: other elevated structure. You'll often find multiple goats enjoying that

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Speaker 1: heightened perspective. Whereas cats, I don't know, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't doubt the research here, but you'll find cats enjoying

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Speaker 1: elevated positions, but also shelving and other locations that are

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Speaker 1: maybe less high, that are maybe picked out more because

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Speaker 1: they are enclosed. You know, they're they're boxy, they're like

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Speaker 1: little caves. Likewise, I mean, you'll you'll find cats sleeping

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Speaker 1: on shoes and so forth with ground level. So, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it seems less pronounced in cats than with goats.

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Speaker 1: For sure, goats would seem to be the superstars uh

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Speaker 1: here when it comes to elevated positions, I think the

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Speaker 1: we do often put out like little pedestals and throne

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Speaker 1: like structures for them to use. Even and of course

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Speaker 1: climbing towers and so forth. So we do facilitate uh,

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Speaker 1: their their you know, their their desire to have some

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Speaker 1: sort of an elevated position, and and also you know,

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Speaker 1: that'll end up looking like we have provided a special

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Speaker 1: place for them, a throne for them to rule over

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Speaker 1: the household. Though at the same time, as we've discussed

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Speaker 1: in the show before, they'll also favor say a discarded

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Speaker 1: ikea instruction manual that's left on a bed. Oh, they'll

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Speaker 1: they'll they'll lay in an empty box. So it's I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I feel like they they do.

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Speaker 2: What they want.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can't you can't entirely expect them to

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Speaker 1: just go to the highest place. They're gonna also find

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Speaker 1: a comfy place and on that. On that count, I

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Speaker 1: would also add that one of the things about cats

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Speaker 1: that may make them seem more powerful is the way

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Speaker 1: they will recline in sudden some circumstances, especially if they're

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Speaker 1: say on a couch where they have something to lean

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Speaker 1: their bodies back against. They'll sometimes have this body position

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Speaker 1: that makes them look like a reclining bipedal humanoid, and

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Speaker 1: you know, their belly will perhaps be a little exaggerated

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Speaker 1: since they may be an indoor cat that eats plenty,

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Speaker 1: and this will sort of add to this feeling of

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Speaker 1: a rotun ruler on.

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Speaker 2: Their throne jab of the cat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but at the very least to your point, Yes,

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Speaker 1: cats will take advantage of various surface levels on which

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Speaker 1: to rest and to you know, view their domain, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of times that will put them at a

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Speaker 1: certainly at a at a higher vantage point, perhaps one

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Speaker 1: that is more on the level with human beings as

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Speaker 1: opposed to just being on the floor.

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Speaker 2: All right, Another idea I had about cats in the

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Speaker 2: perception of power, what if cats seem powerful because they

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Speaker 2: are non compliant or non conforming. There are multiple studies

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Speaker 2: on this dynamic and human. Just to refer to one

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Speaker 2: that seems to be cited a lot, there is a

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Speaker 2: study by Sylvia Ballesa, Francesca Gino, and a not Keenan

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Speaker 2: called the Red Sneakers Effect Inferring status and competence from

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Speaker 2: signals of non conformity. This is from the Journal of

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Speaker 2: Consumer Research from twenty fourteen. What seems to have incited

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Speaker 2: this research is just some anecdotal observations that run counter

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Speaker 2: to the conventional wisdom that if you want to be respected.

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Speaker 2: You need to dress sharp. You know. I've heard variations

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Speaker 2: on this my whole life. Dress for the job you want,

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Speaker 2: not the job you have, and they don't actually include,

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Speaker 2: like in that statement, what you're supposed to wear, But

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Speaker 2: the unspoken assumption is that this means dress up, not

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Speaker 2: dressed down. You know where in my case, the this

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Speaker 2: is interpreted as wear a tie, shine your shoes, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: But the authors here point out that counter to this

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Speaker 2: conventional wisdom in certain sectors of business and culture, they

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Speaker 2: cite observations in Silica Valley, there seems to be a

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Speaker 2: principle operating in exactly the opposite direction. People in these

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Speaker 2: contexts seem to try to signal their power, competence, and

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Speaker 2: high status by dressing down relative to their peers. So like,

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Speaker 2: you know, the CEO, because they will not tuck their

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Speaker 2: shirt in, they're showing up at the board meeting in

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Speaker 2: flip flops. So that's just an anecdotal observation. But the

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Speaker 2: authors here wanted to put together experiments to investigate empirically whether,

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Speaker 2: in some contexts, non conforming behaviors or non compliance with

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Speaker 2: social expectations, whether that does on average confer the appearance

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Speaker 2: of power, competence, and high status, and generally in their

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Speaker 2: experiments which involve different kinds of you know, like staged

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Speaker 2: encounters you might imagine in a university or business setting

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Speaker 2: or whatever. They did indeed find that sometimes non compliance

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Speaker 2: and non conformity are interpreted by others as signs of power,

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Speaker 2: and they compare non conformity and non compliance with social

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Speaker 2: expectations to a form of conspicuous consumption. Conspicuous consumption is

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Speaker 2: a classic concept where people try to show off their

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Speaker 2: high status by showing off that they can afford luxury goods, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, having like expensive jewelry on or wearing you know,

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Speaker 2: something that is impractically expensive and expensive car or something

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Speaker 2: like that to make people think that you are powerful

434
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: and important. In their discussion section, the authors write, quote,

435
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 2: we demonstrate that non conforming behavior as a costly, invisible signal,

436
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 2: can operate similarly to conspicuous consumption and compared to conforming behavior,

437
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 2: lead to inferences of enhanced status and competence in the

438
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 2: eyes of others. Across a series of lab and field studies,

439
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: we explore observer's reactions to a variety of non conforming

440
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 2: behaviors in different settings and find that observers can for

441
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 2: higher status and competence to non conforming individuals compared to

442
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: conforming ones. At a process level, our investigation reveals that

443
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: the positive inferences from signals of non conformity are driven

444
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: by perceived autonomy and moderated by observer's need for uniqueness.

445
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 2: So the theory here seems to be that people interpret

446
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 2: non conformity as an honest display of autonomy. Somebody who

447
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 2: is not complying with social expectations is sort of conveying

448
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 2: I will be fine without your approval, I don't need it,

449
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 2: which ironically in some cases makes some people seem more competent,

450
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: more powerful, and more worthy of respect. So what are

451
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: the boundaries of this effect? Because it obviously does not

452
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: apply in every scenario, the authors in this paper, across

453
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: their multiple studies think that. Well, they say, they find

454
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 2: that this effect only appears when the observer is familiar

455
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: with the environment and social expectations within it. So you know,

456
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: when there are quote established norms of formal conduct in

457
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: the given context, and when the observer knows what they are.

458
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: So like, there have to be implied social rules in

459
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 2: a place, and the observer has to know what they are.

460
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 2: They also find that the perception of status and competence

461
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: associated with nonconformity only appears if the observer believes that

462
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 2: the person in question, the non conforming person, is violating

463
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 2: the norms on purpose. If it seems like they're simply

464
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: not aware that they're dressing or speaking inappropriately, that doesn't

465
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 2: confer any sense of power. The power comes from willful

466
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: flaunting of social expectations. So how does this connect to cats?

467
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: Obviously cats don't dress themselves or use language, so it

468
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: wouldn't make sense to talk about them intentionally flaunting expected

469
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 2: dress codes or ways of speaking. But I think basically

470
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: anybody would have to agree that cats exude an air

471
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: of non compliance in nonconformitypecially victually when contrasted with other

472
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 2: domestic animals like the dog. The dog, of course, you know,

473
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: highly social and usually quite eager to please. The dog

474
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: will put on a tie for you if it can,

475
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: by God, But there is something about the way that

476
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 2: like if you try to train a cat, I mean,

477
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 2: it's it's not true that you can't train a cat.

478
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 2: Sometimes people do do it, but it is notoriously difficult,

479
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: and often when people try it on their own. The

480
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: cat just ignores you, often not just ignoring you, but

481
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 2: like staring right in your face while it ignores what

482
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 2: you want it to do. And I think that does

483
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 2: maybe convey a sense of willful flaunting of social expectations

484
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: that could map on to these intuitions we have about

485
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: human behavior that when somebody is just like, no, I'm

486
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: just not going to comply with the social norms, that

487
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: makes them seem like, oh wow, this is a powerful

488
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: person and I have maybe I should respect them.

489
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: Well, it is true that cat are quite ungovernable, the

490
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: notoriously so. It's also one of their their charms too,

491
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: but one of the frustrations of keeping them as well.

492
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: There's a sticker design out there. I don't know. I

493
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: get served ads for it all the time on like Instagram,

494
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: I guess because I look at cat videos and it's

495
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: like a cartoon cat with two middle fingers up and

496
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: it says you can't stop me, which I love because

497
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: it does perfectly capture the spirit of the cat. They

498
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: will do what they want. And yeah, like I imagine

499
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: it's different like if a dog, say, were to poop

500
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: on your bed, you know, this would what would that

501
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: be like Joe, what is a dog owner? How does

502
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: that go down?

503
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: You get the sense that when a dog, I mean,

504
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 2: all dogs are different, of course, so we're speaking in generalizations,

505
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: but I think on average dog owners will probably say

506
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: that a dog can be made to feel ashamed about

507
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: like that. You show the dog that they pooped on

508
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: the bed, there's a sense that like, the dog couldn't

509
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 2: help it. It just got caught up in the moment,

510
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 2: or it really needed to go and it pooped on

511
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: the bed. And then it looks at the poop and

512
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: it's like, I'm sorry. A cat, you don't get that

513
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: at all.

514
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: That's right with a cat. The first part may still

515
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: obviously be true. The cat could various circumstances just made

516
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: it to where the cat ended up leaving its poop

517
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: on the bed. But there is this feeling that the

518
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: cat is saying, actually, this is where my poop goes. Now,

519
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: this is just how it is. I have made this decision,

520
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: and what.

521
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: Are you going to do about it? I don't need

522
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: your approval.

523
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: Yeah you don't like it, there move it. You're the

524
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: one who handles my poop for me. But yeah, I

525
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: mean that you encountered this all the time with cats,

526
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: Like you attempt to get them a new litter that

527
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: will be better for them and better for the whole household,

528
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: and they reject it, or you get them a comfany

529
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: new bed, but instead they're going to go sweep on

530
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: the instructions for putting together the fancy cat bed that

531
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: you just bought. You know, they're gonna do what they want.

532
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: They're not necessarily They may do what you want in time,

533
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: but they're not going to do it on your schedule.

534
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: They have their own agenda in place.

535
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 2: So to summarize, I don't think I have a comprehensive

536
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: theory about why cats seem powerful, but I think we

537
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: got a few interesting ideas there. I think the non

538
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: compliance and nonconformity thing maybe a big part of it.

539
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,479
Speaker 2: I think the elevation might possibly be a part of it.

540
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: I don't think the eye contact thing really goes anywhere,

541
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: but I'd be interested what listeners think, especially if you

542
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: have a I don't know if you're like a vet

543
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: you work with cats or anything, or even if you

544
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 2: know you just got a lot of cats and you

545
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: want to tell us about them, Like, where do you

546
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: think the sense that cats have a hidden power comes

547
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: from I think.

548
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: Another area that comes to mind is this sort of

549
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: idea that there is a vanity, like like a king

550
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: Lee or queenly vanity to the cat. And I was

551
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: thinking about this specifically last night because my son and

552
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: I are I'm slowly reading Watership Down to him when

553
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: we still do some story time. He does lots of

554
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: reading on his own, but I was like, Watership, you're

555
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: into all these animal books. Let's do Watership Down. And

556
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: we were just reading a part in this in which

557
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: the rabbits encounter a cat. A cat in Watership Down

558
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: is a deadly illegal in one of the thousand enemies

559
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: of the rabbit people, but in this encounter they managed

560
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: to outrun the cat. And one of the rabbit's comments

561
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: that the cats quote hate to look foolish, and this

562
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: matches up with a lot of the things that one

563
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: sees in cat behavior. They will often seemingly walk off

564
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: stumbles and mistakes with a kind of nonchalant that didn't

565
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: happen vibe. This is, of course all theory of mind

566
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: and personification on our part, but that's how we often

567
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: end up interpreting it. So the cat may seem prideful

568
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: and powerful in a way, you know, kind of like

569
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: eager to cover up a stumble it made, when of course,

570
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: in reality, the cat is just doing some mix of

571
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: just recovering from whatever they did wrong and moving on

572
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: or conserving energy instead of wasting you know, time focusing

573
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: on it. It's also coming back a little bit to

574
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: the subjects that we discussed in the last episode, this

575
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: idea of cats catching on early in Japan, with with royalty,

576
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: with nobility, and you have this, this this clear mental

577
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: picture of a Japanese emperor, someone who is in a

578
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: position where I'm you know, I'm imagining there's a lot

579
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: of a lot of yes men surrounding them, there's a

580
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of power, there's a lot of

581
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: things being done in such a way as to please

582
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: the emperor, and then into their life strolls a cat,

583
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: which which you know is adorable and interesting, but also

584
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: is not going to do what an emperor wants the

585
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: cat to do. Like again, they are ungovernable to the

586
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: last of them, to a fault. Even so, I think

587
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to imagine that scenario and being part

588
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: of there, and it's almost like they occupy would have

589
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: occupied like this gesture's place, uh, in the presence of

590
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: the emperor. Like here is here is a creature that

591
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: will not do whatever I want, And in a way

592
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: there's something liberating about that.

593
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: I think that's a really good comparison. Yeah, like the

594
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: power of the jester, like the one who can criticize

595
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: the king because they're a goober. Yeah.

596
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: All right, Now, coming back a bit to Japanese lore

597
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: and legend and tradition concerning cats. I want to get

598
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: into a few other ideas here. I want to mention

599
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: again that two of my primary sources here are kaid

600
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: Yo The Supernatural Cats of Japan by Zach Davison, and

601
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: then also a book titled the Japanese Myths The Guide

602
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: to God's Heroes and Spirits by Joshua Friedman. The first

603
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: cat I want to touch on, I think I may

604
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: have mentioned this one in passing, but is the cat

605
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 1: is the Meneki Neko, the inviting cat. This is a

606
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: cat that I think everyone a cat statue if you will,

607
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: that I think everyone has seen, probably in person, probably

608
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: in multitudes at times. If you haven't seen one in person,

609
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: surely you've seen an image of this. This is a

610
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: little statue of a cat gesturing with it, with it

611
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,959
Speaker 1: with a face down paw, welcoming good luck into a space.

612
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: A lot of times these are like solar and or

613
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: battery powered as well, and so you get that little

614
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: motion of the inviting paw.

615
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 2: I don't think I knew what this was called, but

616
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: I thought of this as the lucky cat, and it

617
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 2: kind of has a in some forms. It has a

618
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 2: paw that waves like the lever of an old school

619
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: cash register.

620
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. It's its origins are in the Edo period,

621
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: when it was apparently observed that cats sometimes manipulate their

622
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: paw in this way that resembles the Japanese traditional hand

623
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: gesture to come inside. I think in Western traditions it's

624
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: often easy to look at that and think of like

625
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: waving or like you say, pulling a lever, But in

626
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: Japanese tradition, I believe this would be more like yeah,

627
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 1: come inside. And the cat then is welcoming good luck.

628
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: Generally inside a home or business, they are not, and

629
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: I can't stress this enough, not welcoming in vampires. So

630
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: if you were a vampire out there, do not misinterpret

631
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: a lut cat as being an open invitation to come

632
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: inside because it's not gonna work.

633
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 2: I can't believe this has never come up before. Does

634
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: when a vampire has to be invited in? Does that

635
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: apply to places of business or only to homes? And

636
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 2: if it applies to places of business, is the open

637
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: sign welcome enough or does it have to come out

638
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: of a person's mouth?

639
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. It depends on the interpretation. Yeah, if

640
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 1: it's by appointment only, I think the vampire cannot come

641
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: inside all right. Now, As for the luck cats, though

642
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: Davison shares several more tidbits, I wasn't familiar with any

643
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: of this. I'm gonna stress though, that there's no real

644
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: canon here regarding what any of these details mean. And

645
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: some he'll apparently find traditions that are the opposite of

646
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: some of the standards here, But in general, you look

647
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: at one of these lut cats, you may see a

648
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: red bib or collar. This is a symbol of Buddhist vinage.

649
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: Oftentimes you'll see it holding a coin, a gold coin.

650
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: This is from the Edo period as well. It's called

651
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: a cobine. It represents like vast wealth. And I think

652
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: there's also this idea too, that is kind of like,

653
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: as Davidson points out, like pearls before swine. You know,

654
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: it's like a coin for a cat is something that

655
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 1: a cat cannot actually appreciate, but it's kind of fun

656
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: that it has it.

657
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: The cat would rather have a lot of aluminum foil.

658
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, the colors mean a lot. Apparently you often see

659
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: white ones. A white luck cat typically means happiness. It's

660
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: inviting in happiness, red color real it's inviting in relationship

661
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 1: success or and or protection from illness. The black color

662
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: is protection from evil spirits. Gold cats obviously mean money.

663
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: But then there are all sorts of newer colors that

664
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: have apparently been introduced just in general popular culture, like

665
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: blue for academic success, green for health, pink for love,

666
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: and then Kaliko apparently is considered the luckiest of all,

667
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: I guess because you get a combination of colors and

668
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: calicos of like luck associations like traditionally in Japan, also

669
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: depending on which hand is doing the waving, Some traditions

670
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 1: say left hand invites in money, right brings in customers,

671
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: though sometimes apparently this is reversed so it depends who

672
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: you're asking about it. Some say right is for home

673
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: left is for business left hand. It also apparently has

674
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: a connotation with holding one's liquor, which apparently ties into

675
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 1: the idea, particularly with a luck cat in a restaurant,

676
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: of keeping clients drinking so that they're ordering more food.

677
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: But again that nothing is there's no strict canon re

678
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: coat here. You'll find various interpretations of this. Again, origins

679
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: go back to the Edo period. You would have these

680
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: motionless clay models, and there are a number of stories

681
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: that lay out how these clay statues.

682
00:37:59,320 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 2: Came to be.

683
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: There are some stories apparently in which you have a

684
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: situation where a hero is saved from ill, luck or

685
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: attack by a becketting cat in the night, and therefore

686
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: after the fact they're like, oh, well this cat saved

687
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 1: my life, I will now honor it. There's one story

688
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: that Davison relates in which there's like a samurai protecting

689
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: this woman. They're going through the dark streets at night.

690
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: This cat jumps out, he thinks it's a threat, He

691
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: slays the cat and then realizes, oh, this cat was

692
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: protecting us or warning us, and then he feels vast

693
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,919
Speaker 1: guilt and a shrine is built to the cats. There's

694
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: also a cat temple origin story of sorts. There's an

695
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: actual cat temple in Japan, Gotukuji, I believe, is what

696
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: it is called. So the cat is apparently, in some

697
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: traditions said to be one of only two animals that

698
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 1: did not weep upon the death of the Buddha. I've

699
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: seen it also put other ways that the cat does

700
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: not accept the Buddha's teaching. Whatever the details, you know,

701
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: it matches up with the spirit of the cat. The

702
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: cat does not seem likely to be greatly emotionally disturbed

703
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: by the death of even the Buddha, and also is

704
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: going to be rather neutral on Buddhist teachings.

705
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 2: The cat is like, I will keep my attachments, thank

706
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 2: you very much.

707
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: Yes, But the story goes that, okay, cats are not

708
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: really lined up with the spirit of Buddhist teachings. Therefore

709
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: they're not a great animal to have at a holy site.

710
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: But the story is that a monk kept one anyway

711
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: because it was cute, adorable, et cetera, et cetera, so

712
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: he hides it from the abbot there. But then one

713
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: night during a storm, the cat invites a powerful lord

714
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: to the temple for refuge, and that temple Kotukuji becomes

715
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: the Cat Temple and today hosts thousands of luck cats.

716
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: You can find various pictures of this place online and

717
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: just yeah, tons and tons of white luck cats.

718
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: Wow. I'm looking at a picture you included in the

719
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 2: outline and it looks like drifts of snow with strawberry. Yeah.

720
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a bunch of them. Now, again we

721
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: discuss that there's a lot of overlap with these different

722
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: stories about the cats, supernatural cats of Japan, and this

723
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: general idea that there's kind of an evolution. A cat

724
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 1: becomes old enough, a cat becomes one hundred years old,

725
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: and then the tail splits, it becomes something else. More

726
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: tails mean more power, even to change its shape and

727
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: take on human form and manipulate aid or hunt humans

728
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: for sport, that sort of thing.

729
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 2: Oh and when you said this, I just realized I

730
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: forgot to mention when I did the recap at the

731
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: beginning that yes, the nekomata has a forked taiale or

732
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: two tails. That's like primary characteristic. I left out apologies

733
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: about that.

734
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: Now, while a lot of these ideas with supernatural cats

735
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: are or they become the idea that this is something

736
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: that a normal cat can and will turn into one.

737
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: Exception to this is the idea of the neko musumi.

738
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: This is the cat daughter. Zach Davison discusses this in

739
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: the book The Cat Daughter in Question. Here is a

740
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: cat human hybrid, but her origin isn't situated in the

741
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: domestic cat at all. She's not a former domestic cat

742
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: that is transformed into this state. She's also attributed with

743
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 1: certain acts that are feline in nature, like cat bathing

744
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: and killing of rodents in line with her feline qualities. Now,

745
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: as Davison lays out the origins of this one and

746
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: the path of his evolution, kind of walks through a

747
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: couple of centuries of weird tales and oddities in Japanese culture.

748
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: The earliest version of the tail stems from the Missy

749
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: Momo or Seeing Things shows in the seventeen hundreds. These,

750
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 1: he writes, were quote a combination of American freak shows,

751
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: haunted houses, and the believe it or Not style of

752
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: exhibitions still popular today. So amid so this would this

753
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: would be a situation for you to encounter various Jokai artifacts,

754
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 1: including the original Fiji mermaid, which originated here in this setting,

755
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: and then you know, ended up traveling into the west,

756
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: but this is where the original Cat Daughter is said

757
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: to have existed. It's unknown, however, if this was somebody

758
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: that had a birth defect, if it was somebody who

759
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: had been made up with special makeup or lighting, or

760
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: if it's with some combination of different elements. But there

761
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: was supposedly an individual that was the Cat Daughter, and

762
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 1: you would pay to see them.

763
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 2: Are there even any physical descriptions other than that, in

764
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: some sense, some vague sense, she looks like a cat.

765
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think we don't have a

766
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: lot to go on here, based on my reading of Davidson.

767
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: So the misimomo shows they die out, maybe they're no

768
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: longer popular. But the story here of the Cat Daughter

769
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: comes back during the Edo period in the Kaiden or

770
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: ghost story collections. Sometimes she's called the Licking Girl again

771
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 1: because she's half cat half human and she does things

772
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 1: that a cat will do, like bathe herself by licking

773
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 1: or fur, and of course killing various rodents. That's also huge.

774
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: But again, her origins in these cases are still mysterious.

775
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: Nobody's saying that she was a domestic cat at one point.

776
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: She's just this anomaly, and apparently accounts during the Edo

777
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: period also sometimes present her again as a historical fact.

778
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: Davidson points out that there's like one particular work that's

779
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: primarily a historical and political diary, and they just refer

780
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: to the cat daughter as a fact, like this is

781
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: a person that exists or existed, which I guess makes

782
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: sense if its origins are in this Missy Momo seeing

783
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: things show. But then things continue to evolve, and finally,

784
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, the story takes on this form

785
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: of a Buddhist morality lesson. So in this story, you

786
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: have a father who makes his living producing cat skin

787
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: shamasin's this is a stringed instrument that was sometimes traditionally

788
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: made with cat or dog skin. And so in this story,

789
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: the father has killed something like five hundred cats in

790
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: his trade to make these these nice musical instruments that

791
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: he sells. But this ends up cursing his bloodline, causing

792
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: his daughter to be born as park cat.

793
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 2: So this is something kind of like a karmic punishment.

794
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Now I want to point out there are

795
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: also illustrations of the Niko mata from the seventeen hundreds.

796
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: We talked about the Nikomada in the last episode, which

797
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: depicts this creature in sort of like a cat humanoid

798
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 1: form playing a shamasen, and this was, I guess apparently

799
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: amusing because the shamasin might have been made out of

800
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: cat skin. All Right, the next one I want to

801
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: discuss very briefly. I don't think I'm gonna go into

802
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: this one much, but if you happen to be on

803
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 1: any of our social media profiles, you may have seen

804
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: an image selected to promote this episode, and it consists

805
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: of what appears to be just a giant chonker of

806
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: a cat, maybe not even leaping, but just sort of

807
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: reaching out of the of the high bushes and small

808
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: trees to swat at a human or a pair of

809
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: humans and cause them great agony and fear.

810
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: Elephant sized cat rising like steam out of the weeds.

811
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the cat I love his, this very sort

812
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: of neutral look on its face. Like it it doesn't

813
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 1: look fearsome. And there are plenty of depictions of cats

814
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: taking on you know, sort of evil and terrifying facial features,

815
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: but this one, this cat looks very neutral as he

816
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 1: as he sort of you know, emerges from the bushes,

817
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: and yeah, he's a total chonker. Very much reminds me

818
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: of the cat meme of Oh laud he come in.

819
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen this one. This is

820
00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: the highest level on the chalk spectrum for how chunky

821
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 1: a cat.

822
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm not familiar, but I understand the concept. Okay,

823
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: This picture is a nineteenth century image from Kawanabi Kyoshi.

824
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: This is supposed to be a giant cat attacking people

825
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: in the forest. Now, this is supposed to be a

826
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 2: depiction of the aeromote o ya maneko or the aeromote

827
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 2: great mountain cat. So this is a remote island of Japan,

828
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 2: and it is indeed home to a small aeromote cat,

829
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: a subspecies of leopard cat that is only found there.

830
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: It's critically endangered. It is not giant, but there are

831
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 2: legends of a much bigger cat with shining eyes that

832
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 2: lives in the mountain. So I guess you could say

833
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: it's kind of a cryptid of Japan. And you know,

834
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: who knows if there's anything to this. Again, cats when

835
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 2: they're they may have that appearance.

836
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: Of glowing eyes in the dark, and you can image

837
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: and how just just sighting one of these normal small

838
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: wildcats could have led to this idea that there's something

839
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 1: bigger lurking in the wilds.

840
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: I was thinking about this after we recorded part one

841
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 2: the other day, because of course, the world is full

842
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 2: of actual big cat predators, lions, tigers, leopards, you know,

843
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: these are large predatory felines that can could really mess

844
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 2: you up. But it seems that the idea of taking

845
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: like even if you live in a place where there

846
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 2: are no large predatory cats, you could almost like invent

847
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: the idea yourself just by looking at a house cat

848
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: and thinking, wow, this we're bigger and stronger, I'd really

849
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 2: be in trouble.

850
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's obviously always a concern

851
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: with cats. You know, there's always the joke about like

852
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: if a cat we're larger than a human, you know,

853
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 1: you would just eat you that sort of thing. Yeah,

854
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 1: but yeah, I guess it's it's always you never want

855
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: to air just entirely on the side of oh, well,

856
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: there's a tradition in this culture of a giant animal

857
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,439
Speaker 1: that animals certainly existed, because obviously that's not always the case.

858
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: I mean, because the human imagination is powerful enough to

859
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: imagine large and small versions of any animals. There are

860
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: no giant man sized spiders in Japan, but there are

861
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: still stories about them exactly.

862
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we make this point a lot on the show.

863
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 2: Sometimes weird stories and myths and legends do go back

864
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: to some kind of historical event that maybe is getting

865
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 2: altered through retelling. But it doesn't have to be that way.

866
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 2: You don't have to assume that every crazy story goes

867
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 2: back to something that really happened. People just are creative

868
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 2: people make things up.

869
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's really a disservice at times

870
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: to the human imagination and to and also to the

871
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: traditions of various peoples to say like, oh, well, they

872
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 1: clearly didn't think of this on their own. It must

873
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: have been encrypted or Another version of this, of course,

874
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: is the idea like, oh, look at this weird thing

875
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 1: in their art. It has to be ancient aliens. Like

876
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: when you do that, there are a number of problems

877
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: with the aliens. I bought this, as we've touched on

878
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: many times before, but a big one too, is like

879
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: you're you're doing a disservice to whatever traditional society you're

880
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: commenting on by saying that this thing that they that

881
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: they imagined, interpreted, that you know, has this important role

882
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: in their belief system. When you just say, oh, that's

883
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: that's people from another planet. That's not nothing they did.

884
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: This is nothing that is a part of them. This

885
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: is something external to.

886
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 2: Them, right, And of course that applies to like real

887
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 2: human accomplishments, you know, buildings and structures. Saying like, oh,

888
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 2: people couldn't have done that without without alien help. That

889
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 2: is wrong, misguided, not an appropriate reaction to the evidence,

890
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,439
Speaker 2: and it is insulting to you know, people who worked

891
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 2: hard and we're clever. But also it applies to stories.

892
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: You know, stories were say like, oh, you know, this

893
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 2: being came out of the water and it had these

894
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: physical features and all those things. There's no reason you

895
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 2: have to assume that that's based on people actually encountering

896
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 2: some being they didn't understand. People were creative in the past,

897
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 2: just like they're creative now. People today make up stories

898
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: about fantastical beings and beasts. They did then too, right,

899
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 2: But then again, you know, we are creatures that live

900
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: in the natural world, and we are often inspired by

901
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 2: the natural world, and we kind of get back into that.

902
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 2: In the final example, I want to highlight here this

903
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: may be one of my favorites. It is the idea

904
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 2: of the kasha. This one's interesting because in its origin

905
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: it is not a cat at all, but a terrifying

906
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 2: flaming cart with or without only attendants, so terrifying, you know,

907
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 2: troll like demon beings attending it or sometimes not attending it.

908
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: It comes down from the sky to drag away the

909
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 2: souls of sinners who are living in the end times,

910
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,240
Speaker 2: drag them down to Hell and its many torments because

911
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 2: the cycle of reincarnation has run its course. Oh you know,

912
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 2: there's everything is broken, so it's time for the hell

913
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: cart to come and just drag people away. Or at

914
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 2: least that's how Kamakura Buddhists of the twelfth through fourteenth

915
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 2: centuries apparently viewed matters. But much later, during the eighteen hundreds,

916
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 2: you have influential yokai chronicler Tori Yama Sekan coming around.

917
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 2: We've talked about him before because a very influential figure

918
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 2: in sort of laying out what various yo kai looked

919
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: like and also just straight up making things up, like

920
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: very much like creating things on his own. I think

921
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 2: we've touched on some of these before where when you

922
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 2: many yokai have you know, very you know, cultural origins

923
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 2: within the larger culture and in traditional folk beliefs, and

924
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: particularly in rural areas, but also in many in urban

925
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 2: areas as well. But sometimes Sekan just sort of made

926
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 2: something up because it was clever, or you know, it

927
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 2: commented on some social or political element of the time, that.

928
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: Sort of thing. So he comes along and he reinterprets

929
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: the kasha as a cat creature covered in flames, a

930
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 1: fearsome cat creature. And Joe, I've included an image.

931
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 2: Of the kasha here as a yokai for you that

932
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 2: is brutal. The flames are coming off of its sideways.

933
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's these wonderful like Japanese flames that kind

934
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: of feel like tendrils or tentacles, you know, like they're

935
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: reaching out to grab you. There's also this kind of

936
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: like spiral motif behind it, like it has just come

937
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: out of a warp from the hell domains. So, yeah,

938
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: a fearsome creature come to get your soul.

939
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: I guess the sideways flames suggests like a whipping wind

940
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 2: or a storm or something.

941
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, so a very chaotic entity. And according to Davison,

942
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: this is purely a product of Sakan's creativity, but his

943
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: work was again highly influential, so it stuck. The kasha

944
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 1: was now a flesh eating animal spirit, and especially for

945
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: the wicked, the idea is that during your funeral possession,

946
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: a great wind may blow everything over. Knock over your casket,

947
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: open up the cask, your body comes rolling out, and

948
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: then in swoops the kasha to consume your corpse.

949
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: Wow.

950
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: Now, eventually those Nikomata stories we talked about in the

951
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: first episode, they end up influencing this kasha legend, making

952
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 1: it a normal house cat that has been transformed due

953
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: to its proximity to the human dead. So allow a

954
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: normal cat to access a dead human body and they

955
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: will transform into a kasha and drag it away, you know,

956
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: and you know it may its tail may split, and

957
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: all the other motifs that we've discussed. But something about

958
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 1: being near the dead body, or drinking blood of the dead,

959
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 1: or you know, licking the body of the dead as

960
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: something of this nature will cause this transformation. Now, in

961
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: the last episode we mentioned that stories concerning the bacan

962
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: eko in the dead, how these were probably linked on

963
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:03,439
Speaker 1: various levels. To observations of post mortem predation of human

964
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 1: corpses by cats. Now it's not just cats, Dogs and

965
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: other pets have also been observed to do this, to

966
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: have a little to eat off of a dead human body.

967
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 1: Apparently dogs wait a while and are a little more

968
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: concerned about it in regards to cats. I think cats

969
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: do it. I didn't look up any hard data on this,

970
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: but Davidson alludes to this, but at any rate, cats

971
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 1: will get in there and have a little to eat

972
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:31,439
Speaker 1: off of the dead.

973
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 2: One of the probably disturbing realities to humans coming on

974
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 2: the scene is that I've read when this happens, the animals,

975
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 2: including cats, often go for the face first.

976
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not personal, it's just nature. Cats are meteors.

977
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 1: But this is a case where the Kasha legend seems

978
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: to be linked to these observations as well. So you

979
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 1: get this idea that like, look, keep the cats away

980
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: from the dead or they will interfere with them, which

981
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: on one level, yes, absolutely true. They will. They will

982
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: probably have a little bite, they will investigate the meat.

983
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: And you can imagine how this takes on fantastic exaggerated proportions.

984
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: The idea that the cat is not just going to

985
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 1: eat of the dead. The cat may do something more

986
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 1: directly that impacts the soul of the deceased. They may

987
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 1: drag them to hell, they may take on the form

988
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: of the deceased, or as pops up in stories concerning

989
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: both the Kasha and the Nikomata, they may leap over

990
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 1: the body, and in doing so they kind of unleash

991
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,399
Speaker 1: invisible strings that then reanimate the dead.

992
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 2: They raise the dead through invisible strings. Wow, I love that.

993
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So here we have a very you know,

994
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: necromantic view of the powers of the cat, you know,

995
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: and and again it's it's fascinating because yes it is fantastic,

996
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: and it ties into all these other ideas in the

997
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: given culture here. But also a lot of it is

998
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: that did in just our experiences of living with cats,

999
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,879
Speaker 1: that cats do seem to have this this secrecy, this neutrality,

1000
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: and they do things at times that seem to imply

1001
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 1: some some darker agenda, some some hidden system of rules

1002
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: and laws that govern their behavior, you know, either in

1003
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: this world or the next. Uh. They're they're they're they're

1004
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: constantly fascinating and constantly forcing us to wonder, like, what

1005
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: are they up to? What are they on about? What's

1006
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: their whole deal?

1007
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: Well, Rob, I have greatly enjoyed this exploration of the

1008
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 2: various magical cat morphs and altered cats of Japan.

1009
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. And next week

1010
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 1: we'll have an all new exploration for the Halloween season.

1011
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: I don't think we've entirely decided what it is yet,

1012
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: but it'll it'll be awesome, trust us. Now. On another note,

1013
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: I mentioned social media earlier. Go check out our various

1014
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 1: social media presences if you haven't had a chance, because

1015
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: they're all back up and running. You can find them

1016
00:56:57,680 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: all linked on stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1017
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 1: We are STBYM podcast on Instagram. If you use any

1018
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: of these things, go check them out. If you don't

1019
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: use any of these things, hey, don't go sign up

1020
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: for them because we said we were using them.

1021
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 2: It's not worth it. But if you're already there.

1022
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: If you're already there, it's a way to keep up

1023
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: with what we're doing on the show. You may notice

1024
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: that we have some new host photos. You can see

1025
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: new photos of Joe and myself. These were taken at

1026
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: the Museum of Illusions, Atlanta, a delightful and educational attraction

1027
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: located in Atlantic Station here in Atlanta. This facility features

1028
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: a whole host of visual illusions, including illusion rooms you

1029
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: can walk into and interact with. They also have cameras

1030
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 1: there and also you can bring in your own devices,

1031
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: take your own selfies, and enjoy all sorts of strange illusions, mirror,

1032
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: unreal reflections, that sort of thing. Joe, we had a

1033
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 1: really good time looking into various infinity mirrors. There's even

1034
00:57:57,880 --> 00:57:59,439
Speaker 1: an upside down room.

1035
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 2: You remember this one. Yes, I really enjoyed the hatch

1036
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 2: that goes down forever. It gave me evocations of the

1037
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 2: House of Leaves.

1038
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that was a really fun one. We tried

1039
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: to get some photo We got a few photos there,

1040
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: but it was really hard to capture that infinity feeling.

1041
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, Museum Evolutions Atlanta. It's fun for all ages.

1042
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: You can learn more about it at m OI Atlanta

1043
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: dot com. Oh and while we're at it, hey, it's

1044
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: Halloween season. We have a new logo design for the

1045
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: Halloween season. You can get it on various merch if

1046
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: you go to our merch store go to stuff to

1047
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: Blow Yourmind dot com and click the store tab. You

1048
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: can also find images of this on our various social

1049
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: media accounts. But it's the Stuff to Blow your Mind logo,

1050
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: but with some various occult images added to it, and

1051
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: you can get that on any shirt color.

1052
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 2: Get one in time for Halloween.

1053
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, get a sticker, get of whatever else they make.

1054
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want one, don't let us pressure you.

1055
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 2: Come on.

1056
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: It's there for fun. It's there for fun if you want,

1057
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: how do you as well?

1058
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 2: What's the most non coercive way to encourage people to buy?

1059
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,439
Speaker 2: Go buy, but you don't have to, but go buy.

1060
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: We made something that we think is fun, but it's

1061
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: totally optional.

1062
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 2: It's not required.

1063
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Hey, if you want to check out

1064
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, you know

1065
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: where to find us anywhere you get your podcasts. On

1066
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays we have a core episode. On Mondays

1067
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we usually do a

1068
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: short form artifact or a monster Fact episode. There will

1069
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 1: be a Monster Fact episode next week. And then on

1070
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 1: Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just talk

1071
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

1072
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1073
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us

1074
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1075
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1076
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1077
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Speaker 2: your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of Heart Radio.

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Speaker 3: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.