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Speaker 1: Okay, So people to ask me, have you seen it?

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, yeah, yeah, of course, and then sometimes

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Speaker 1: they would watch it and then they'd be like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: this is such a terrible movie. Why doesn't everyone just

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Speaker 1: ignore it? Except the era made it so that we

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Speaker 1: couldn't forget it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Susie Bannacharam and I'm Jessica Bennett and.

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Speaker 3: This is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit a

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Speaker 3: cultural moment from the past that shaped.

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Speaker 2: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

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Speaker 3: Today, we're talking to best selling author Portista Cockpoor, who

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Speaker 3: is a friend and fellow Iranian.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the movie Not Without My Daughter.

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Speaker 3: When we were growing up, this was really the only

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Speaker 3: mainstream representation of Iranians and it had a.

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Speaker 2: Pretty big impact on us.

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Speaker 3: Purtista, thank you so much for joining us on in Retrospect.

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Speaker 3: I'm so happy to get to have this conversation with you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored.

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Speaker 3: Well, so you and I have been talking about this

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Speaker 3: movie Not Without My Daughter. I reached out to you

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Speaker 3: because I was like, Hey, do you have thoughts about

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Speaker 3: this movie? Because I definitely do, And you were like, Susie. Yes,

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Speaker 3: and I've written about it. Then I read the thing

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Speaker 3: you wrote about it for the Early Times many years ago.

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Speaker 3: But this is a movie that looms very large in

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Speaker 3: the Iranian experience because, as you wrote.

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Speaker 2: We were pretty invisible in culture.

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Speaker 3: I'd say we're probably still somewhat invisible in culture, but

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Speaker 3: growing up, this was the only representation I remember seeing

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Speaker 3: of Iranian people in pop culture.

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Speaker 2: Is that your memory too?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was very little, because I remember the commercial

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Speaker 1: the day that it aired on television. Our TV was

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Speaker 1: always on, you know, we had one of those households,

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Speaker 1: so the TV was always blaring, So I like vividly

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Speaker 1: remember the first commercial I saw for.

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Speaker 2: It, nineteen eighty four, betting Mamody's husband took her and

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Speaker 2: her daughter to Iran to meet his family.

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Speaker 1: I dismember in our household. We were very excited at first,

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Speaker 1: like okay, wow, this is clearly something taking place in Iran.

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Speaker 1: This is amazing, And then like halfway through the trailer

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Speaker 1: we were like, oh yeah, the trailer is dark.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how to say this to you.

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Speaker 4: We're not going back with staying here.

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Speaker 2: I want us to live in Iran.

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Speaker 1: What are you crazy? We're Americans, your daughter's an American. Mainly,

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Speaker 1: we were excited because of Sally Field, and I feel like,

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Speaker 1: there's great There's like, I don't know, she must have

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Speaker 1: been huge and Iran because my parents told me a

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Speaker 1: lot about her. I mean, she was obviously of a

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Speaker 1: different era than our era, but Sally Field just seemed

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Speaker 1: like the perfect America's darling. This was shortly after she'd

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Speaker 1: been in Steel Magnolias.

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Speaker 2: So this was just kind of like the height great movie.

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Speaker 1: Amazing movie, Like Sally Field has just had hits mainly

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Speaker 1: other than not without my daughter, so it's like she

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Speaker 1: was at the height of her power. And so of

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Speaker 1: course we were going to pay attention first and foremost

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Speaker 1: to a Sally Field movie being on television. And then

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Speaker 1: it was like, oh, whoa Iran. And I remember, for

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Speaker 1: a second we thought she was playing an Iranian woman.

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Speaker 2: Right because you didn't know the book, right.

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Speaker 3: That's so interesting because I don't think we were familiar

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Speaker 3: with the book either. And I also was a huge

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Speaker 3: Sally Field fan. I loved Gidget. And we should mention

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Speaker 3: we both grew up in California, although you grew up

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Speaker 3: in LA which is more typical of an Iranian family.

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Speaker 3: My family very consciously decided to live in northern California.

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Speaker 3: My parents were a little afraid that we would be

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Speaker 3: subsumed by the kind of I don't even know how

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Speaker 3: to describe it for people who don't know it, but

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Speaker 3: there's this Iranian culture in LA that's very focused on

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Speaker 3: like money and plastic surgery, which no shade book, I've dabbled, and.

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Speaker 2: All those things.

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Speaker 3: But they were really like afraid we would become these

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Speaker 3: stereotypical Iranian girls. And so I grew up off in

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Speaker 3: the wilderness, like northern California is not the wilderness, but

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Speaker 3: for Iranian people, it kind of felt that way. We

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Speaker 3: didn't have this huge Iranian community. We had some friends

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Speaker 3: and whatever. But as a result, when the movie came out,

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Speaker 3: I certainly was not aware of the book, and so

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Speaker 3: I don't remember the way you do when I first

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Speaker 3: became aware of.

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Speaker 2: It, or when I.

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Speaker 3: Saw it for the first time. Even I watched it

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Speaker 3: this week just to remind myself. And I don't know

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Speaker 3: that I had ever seen it from start to finish.

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Speaker 2: I think I just always caught it.

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Speaker 3: On rerun, right, But I was aware that it existed

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Speaker 3: from a pretty young age, and I was aware that

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Speaker 3: everyone was appalled by it.

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Speaker 1: And not just see ronins. We should say it was

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Speaker 1: a flop do well in the box office at all.

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Speaker 2: It did not do well.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we should describe the movie for people who don't

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Speaker 3: know what we're talking about. This movie is the story

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Speaker 3: of a woman named Betty Mamody who is married to

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Speaker 3: a man named said Ma Moody who goes by Moody.

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Speaker 3: Their last name is Mamody, but his nickname is Moody,

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Speaker 3: so just fyi. And it is based on a true story.

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Speaker 3: And we should say that because what we're talking about here.

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Speaker 2: Is not whether or not the story she told was true.

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Speaker 3: I don't have any way of knowing that, and I

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Speaker 3: think there's some evidence that in fact, the story.

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Speaker 2: She told was true.

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Speaker 3: But it's the movie that really had this cultural impact

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Speaker 3: on Iranians in a different way.

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Speaker 2: The book was really popular, it was a bestseller.

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Speaker 1: I think we were just too young, because if we

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Speaker 1: were probably in our twenties or thirties, we would have

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Speaker 1: probably noticed that it was an international bestseller, but instead,

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Speaker 1: like kids, we noticed a movie more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it was.

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Speaker 1: Huge and the book was I think pretty critically acclaimed.

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Speaker 2: Even Yeah, I mean it came out in nineteen eighty seven.

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Speaker 3: The movie doesn't come out until nineteen ninety one, so

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Speaker 3: there's a little bit of a break in between it.

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Speaker 3: And it's probably worth noting that this period in American

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Speaker 3: history was really the most anti Iranian period, Like anti

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Speaker 3: Iranian sentiment.

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Speaker 2: Was very high for people who don't know the history.

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Speaker 3: When the Iranian Revolution happens, it starts in seventy eight

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Speaker 3: and ends in seventy nine, some Iranian students barricade the

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Speaker 3: American embassy and take hostages, and this becomes a huge

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Speaker 3: national story.

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Speaker 5: The United States Marine Corps guards use tear gas to

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Speaker 5: who try to disperse the mob of Islamic students, but

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Speaker 5: that wasn't enough. They stormed the embassy, fought the Marine

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Speaker 5: guards for three hours, overpowered.

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Speaker 6: Them, and took dozens of American hostages.

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Speaker 5: The hostages, men and women, were blindfolded and heard it

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Speaker 5: into the embassy's basement.

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Speaker 3: These hostages are kept for four hundred and forty four

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Speaker 3: days while they're negotiating with American whether or not they're

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Speaker 3: going to release these American embassy workers. And it was

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Speaker 3: such a big story that I actually read that Walter

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Speaker 3: Cronkite would end every show by saying how many days

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Speaker 3: they had been in captivity.

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Speaker 7: That's the word is Tuesday February nineteenth, nineteen eighty, the

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Speaker 7: one hundred and eighth day of captivity, the two hundred

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Speaker 7: and twenty second day of captivity, the two hundred and

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Speaker 7: eighty fifth day of captivity, the three hundred and seventy

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Speaker 7: seventh day of captivity for American hostages in Iraqi.

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Speaker 3: And I think for a lot of Americans it was

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Speaker 3: the first time they'd ever really thought about Iran.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Iran was not like.

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Speaker 3: In the popular culture and the way it became after

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Speaker 3: the Access of Evil comments by George Bush. So it

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Speaker 3: was their first exposure to Iran. And the idea was

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Speaker 3: that it was this really primitive country and there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of protests in America and there was a

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Speaker 3: lot of anti Iranian racism that people experience. So this

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Speaker 3: movie arrives on the scene when Iranians have kind of

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Speaker 3: been turned into the latest boogeyman.

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Speaker 2: You know, America has to have someone yeah, yeah, the

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Speaker 2: Cold War was kind of waiting.

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Speaker 3: I feel like they needed someone new, and the Iranians

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Speaker 3: took that mantle.

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Speaker 1: The timing was. I think that's a big part of this.

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Speaker 1: I've noticed younger people don't even know so much of

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Speaker 1: your experience of the US when you're Iranian has to

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Speaker 1: do with when you arrived. Yes, there were pockets where

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Speaker 1: it was a little easier, yeah, like when I came

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Speaker 1: or things like that, and then there's pockets that it

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Speaker 1: got worse. It always ebbs and flows. It has a

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Speaker 1: lot to do with the news cycle, and it has

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Speaker 1: a lot to do with US foreign policy and who's

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Speaker 1: our president all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: I was a bit oblivious as a child.

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Speaker 3: I don't know that I even really realized people didn't

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Speaker 3: like I did arrive in this country right after the revolution,

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Speaker 3: so it would have been at this height. But you know,

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Speaker 3: we lived in this small town in northern California. There

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Speaker 3: weren't a lot of us, and our parents taught us

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Speaker 3: that it was cool that we were Iranian. Like they

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Speaker 3: were kind of like, well, you're better than these Americans

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Speaker 3: were Iranian. That's something to be proud of.

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Speaker 2: And I felt really lucky about that because it took a.

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Speaker 3: Long time for me to realize what I was was

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Speaker 3: supposed to be bad in some way, and then to

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Speaker 3: actually experience discrimination, which obviously eventually I did because I

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Speaker 3: live in America.

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Speaker 1: But I think I've had this experience with a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who lived in Northern California, and I think

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Speaker 1: Northern California really could be another state. I mean it

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Speaker 1: to me always seems way more educated, way more culturally sensitive.

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Speaker 1: Like I wish my parents had decided to go to

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Speaker 1: northern California. First, they didn't because my aunt was there.

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Speaker 1: My grandma was in Long Beach, Yeah, which I mean,

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Speaker 1: we weren't in the Tarandulus part of La so I

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Speaker 1: was still like one of very few Iranians in our community.

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Speaker 1: We were in the San Gabriel Valley, but we were

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Speaker 1: still close enough to like the real La Iranian experience.

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Speaker 1: That the reason we heard so much anti iranianness is

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Speaker 1: because people were very aware of Iranians.

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Speaker 3: We should explain, because I feel like you and I

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Speaker 3: just assume everybody knows what tarangelist is, but that's not

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Speaker 3: the case.

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Speaker 2: Will you tell people what that is? And then later

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Speaker 2: on we're.

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Speaker 3: Going to talk about your new book, which is called Tarangelis.

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Speaker 1: Which mistakenly people keep thinking I invented that word, which

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Speaker 1: is amazing.

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Speaker 2: I'm like whoa.

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Speaker 1: I can't take credit for that. It's a portmanteau for

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Speaker 1: just like Tehran and Los Angeles, and it refers to

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Speaker 1: a part of the West side of LA It's very specific.

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Speaker 1: People would probably fight over exactly what areas, but it

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Speaker 1: certainly it includes Beverly Hills, parts of bel Air, parts

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Speaker 1: of Brentwood, even parts of Santa Monica.

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Speaker 3: Westwood definitely going to say Westwood is what I always remember,

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Speaker 3: and it's where there are a lot of Iranian shops

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Speaker 3: and Iranian restaurants exactly.

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Speaker 1: There's a little Persia plaque now which wasn't there when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid. So it's very much this particular area.

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Speaker 1: And then there's a whole culture that comes with it,

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Speaker 1: and it's very much which you were describing earlier, like

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Speaker 1: it is this culture of very flashy, moneied Iranians. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's all like upper class or upper middle class, and

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Speaker 1: people are pretending to be very upper class. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: often think of it very much like this one scene

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Speaker 1: and Clueless where Alicia Silverstones share a character points out

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Speaker 1: to her friend she goes and that's the Persian mafia.

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Speaker 1: And that's the Persian mafia. You can't hang with Emlis

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Speaker 1: you own a BMW.

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Speaker 3: That, actually, by the way, is the second time I

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Speaker 3: remember Iranians being mentioned in.

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Speaker 2: A movie was in Clueless and being like, oh my god.

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Speaker 3: But it is of course that kind of thing that

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Speaker 3: eventually becomes what I think a lot of people associate

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Speaker 3: with Iranians now in pop culture. Shaws of Sunset, which

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Speaker 3: was a reality show on Bravo for a while.

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Speaker 2: This season on Shaws of Sunset.

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Speaker 3: It's like, you know, very flashy, lots of gold, very

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Speaker 3: ostentatious is the vibe, yes, And I think in Iranian

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Speaker 3: culture it's complicated because on the one hand, I don't

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Speaker 3: want to like talk shit about other Iranians. But it

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Speaker 3: is also true that when you grow up Iranian you

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Speaker 3: have a point of view about what that vibe is,

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Speaker 3: like that Persian American princess Yes sing and you and

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Speaker 3: I were both really very much not of that, And

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Speaker 3: I think that makes us kind of unusual, right, But

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Speaker 3: it makes sense that we're.

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Speaker 2: Friends totally exactly.

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Speaker 1: It also makes sense that we love New York, this

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Speaker 1: place and it's Iranians are so the antithesis of that

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Speaker 1: energy I feel like, which is still thriving. We should

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Speaker 1: mention too like there's tiktoks that are all about that.

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Speaker 1: They don't always use the word taranngulus, but they're very

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Speaker 1: much referring to like that kind of culture. And now

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Speaker 1: they're doing like the gen Z version of that.

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Speaker 8: They're Lamborghinis, and yeah, like makes so funny that that's

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Speaker 8: like what's so associated with Iranian culture because in my mind,

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Speaker 8: Iranian culture is so many other things that have nothing

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Speaker 8: to do with money, Like not everyone from Iran is rich.

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Speaker 3: That's just a wild stereotype that makes no sense to me.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back to.

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Speaker 3: The movie and what was happening. So this book comes out.

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Speaker 3: Then the movie doesn't come out un till a bit

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Speaker 3: later in ninety one, but it takes place in eighty four.

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Speaker 3: It's really soon after the revolution, right, the Iran Iraq

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Speaker 3: War is raging, and for people who don't know what

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Speaker 3: that is, that was a conflict between Iraq and Iran

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Speaker 3: that went on for many years, and the Iraqi side

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Speaker 3: was very much funded by American intervention because of the

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Speaker 3: hostage crisis, but also they just felt at that time

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Speaker 3: that Iraq was a more friendly nation that would not

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Speaker 3: go on to be the case. But when the movie

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Speaker 3: comes out, is when that is shifting a bit because

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Speaker 3: Iraq has just invaded Kuwait and there's about to be

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Speaker 3: Operation Desert Storm, which was a short lived war when

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Speaker 3: we were kids, and that is literally happening right as

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Speaker 3: the movie is coming out. The movie comes out in

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Speaker 3: January on January eleventh, and less than a week later

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Speaker 3: the invasion begins.

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Speaker 1: These guies over back then have been illuminated.

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Speaker 5: We're being right, flashes going on all over the sky.

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Speaker 3: So it's in that context that we are introduced to

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Speaker 3: the Malmoodi family. And I'm going to just walk us

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Speaker 3: through it, and you can tell me your impressions of

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Speaker 3: these scenes as well. But the way the movie starts

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Speaker 3: is that these two have the most idyllic marriage, like

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Speaker 3: the most adorable couple with the most adorable child.

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Speaker 2: Well it's my turn.

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Speaker 3: You always say this beautiful, like lush, green landscape. And

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Speaker 3: he's a doctor and she's a stay at home mom.

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Speaker 3: And there's just one little hint that not everything is paradise,

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Speaker 3: and it's that one day they show him at the

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Speaker 3: hospital and other doctors are saying nasty things about Iranians

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Speaker 3: in front of him. He prayed themselves right back, and

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Speaker 3: the Stone.

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Speaker 1: Is soldier gets wounded in the field.

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Speaker 8: Just let him die.

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Speaker 9: He's gonna go to paradise.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, right, And he gets very upset. But even in

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Speaker 3: that he's presented in this very iererdyite way, like he

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Speaker 3: goes home and listens to classical music to recover from

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Speaker 3: his discrimination, and she's like it's not okay, Like I

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Speaker 3: stand with you.

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Speaker 1: We moved here to get away from all of that. God,

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Speaker 1: he's just so awful.

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Speaker 4: Oh, they forget it.

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Speaker 3: And then there is this scene where he's with his

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Speaker 3: daughter and she tells him that she's been discriminated against.

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Speaker 2: Also says, I hate Americans because you're from Iran, and

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Speaker 2: he says to her in this infamous line.

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Speaker 4: I've lived in America for twenty years. I'm as American

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Speaker 4: as apple Pie.

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Speaker 1: Show you.

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Speaker 3: So that's the beginning of the movie. We are presented

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Speaker 3: to this family and this man. He's American like he's Iranian,

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Speaker 3: but it's almost incidental to who he is. And while

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Speaker 3: he is American, he is the perfect husband.

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Speaker 1: The one thing that struck me this time watching it

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Speaker 1: again that kind of cracked me up is the dad

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Speaker 1: is played by Alfred Molina.

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Speaker 2: Yes right, because they couldn't find an Amanian actor in La.

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Speaker 1: Apparently they do have other Iranian actress in the film,

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Speaker 1: so it's just sort of weird. It goes to Alfred Molina,

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Speaker 1: who's I think of Spanish and Italian descent. It struck

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Speaker 1: me this time. It's so funny because I think of

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Speaker 1: the name of the daughter, which is Matob. Matob is

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Speaker 1: one of the easiest names to say. Yeah, like I've

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Speaker 1: heard many many white Americans be able to say Matob

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Speaker 1: very easily. Yes, But from the beginning, it struck me

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Speaker 1: that they're just saying the daughter's name even weird like

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Speaker 1: Matabb and I's just like they couldn't get that right.

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Speaker 3: The other thing I want to say here is that

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of Farsie spoken in this movie.

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Speaker 2: My Farsi's not great, but it's better than this.

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Speaker 3: It's the worst Farsiti you've ever heard, and it is

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Speaker 3: never translated.

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Speaker 2: It is just present. It is this gobbledygook going on

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Speaker 2: in the background, but there's no captions on screen.

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Speaker 3: It's just like, oh, they speak this foreign, scary tongue.

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Speaker 1: I guess they just realized it wouldn't make a difference,

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Speaker 1: because it's not like they were conveying anything that shows

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Speaker 1: their humanity through the Persian anyway, so they just don't

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Speaker 1: do it.

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Speaker 3: They clearly had Iranian people working on the film. Someone

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Speaker 3: has to teach him the Farsi. He does speak, and

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Speaker 3: if you're going to go through the trouble of teaching

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Speaker 3: him Farsie and having him say things, I don't know

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Speaker 3: why you wouldn't translate them.

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Speaker 2: I mean that part's so weird to me, so weird.

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Speaker 3: And they're living this idyllic life. And then he says

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Speaker 3: to her, I haven't been to Iran in ten years.

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Speaker 2: I would really like to go home, honey.

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Speaker 4: I want to go more than anything. I miss them

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Speaker 4: so much. You're always talking about how important family is.

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Speaker 4: All I want to do is go for two weeks

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Speaker 4: with you and NOTAP and visit my family.

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Speaker 3: And she's horrified by the idea that they would go

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Speaker 3: to Iran.

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Speaker 2: I guess it's fair.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there was a war raging there, so that

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Speaker 3: does make sense. But it's just like the absolute horror

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Speaker 3: with which she responds that I find kind of funny.

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Speaker 2: Okay, go to Iran.

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Speaker 1: Why not.

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Speaker 3: I'm not about to take Matak to Iran. It's much

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Speaker 3: too violent.

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Speaker 4: We're not going to go sight saying to the Persian

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Speaker 4: Gulf or anything crazy. We're going to spend two weeks

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Speaker 4: on vacation with my family.

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Speaker 2: Ody.

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Speaker 1: There's too much going on over there.

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Speaker 3: And he swears to her with his hand on the

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Speaker 3: Holy Holdan that they will be back in two weeks.

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Speaker 4: I swear to you on the sacred Koran you won't

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Speaker 4: be in any danger.

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Speaker 3: Which I find also right, because if you're only going

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Speaker 3: for a two week vacation, why is there so much

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Speaker 3: a question about whether or not you're going to come back.

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Speaker 2: You own your home, you have.

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Speaker 1: A job, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: But then we get into this thing that you have

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Speaker 3: talked about, which is essentially this is a horror movie

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Speaker 3: about Iranians.

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Speaker 1: It really has that structure because Betty math Boody's nightmare

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Speaker 1: and this is that she's being told that she's gonna

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Speaker 1: go to Iran for two weeks right right shortly after

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Speaker 1: she gets there, he turns into an absolute villain.

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Speaker 4: You're in my country, now, you're my wife. You do

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Speaker 4: as I say, you understand me.

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Speaker 1: And we realize he's kidnapped her kidnapping, and so she's

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Speaker 1: not gonna be able to go back to the US

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Speaker 1: and so she's just like stuck. Now in Iran. He

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Speaker 1: becomes like a demon, he's a confuser. Suddenly, what.

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Speaker 4: You try anything like this again, I'll kill you.

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Speaker 1: There's all these scenes of her praying with her daughter,

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Speaker 1: like to the Lord, you know, because she's very Christian.

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Speaker 1: She wears a cross Lord prayer, did you look for

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Speaker 1: your prayer? Please help us leave Iran and get back

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Speaker 1: to America.

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Speaker 3: It really does follow this horror film structure like you're

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Speaker 3: talking about. It starts with this ominous music. Then there's

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Speaker 3: the calm before the storm, and now they're in Iran

400
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Speaker 3: and it is the storm, even from the moment they land.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember that scene?

402
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Speaker 3: I was blown away by rewatching the scene when they

403
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Speaker 3: get to the airport, which is represented as like a

404
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Speaker 3: dirt field, like they're never in a structure, Like I'm.

405
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Speaker 2: Like, why is there no airport?

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Speaker 3: I've been to the airport, right, And then they're just

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Speaker 3: like this huge group like a hundred people, all cloaked

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Speaker 3: in black, and they're like surrounding her, and he immediately

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Speaker 3: starts laughing maniacally like it's I'm like, what's happening in

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Speaker 3: the scene.

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Speaker 1: It's so wild that scene, because of course we know

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Speaker 1: as Iranians people often come to the airport seas some

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Speaker 1: family members, but it's not thirty family members or like

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Speaker 1: a whole village. It's so weird, and they're like screaming

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Speaker 1: and yelling. They're like mobs of family and she's like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this must be how Iranians are.

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Speaker 3: At this point, they've been married for seven years, their

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Speaker 3: daughter is four. Presumably they have met other Iranian people.

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Speaker 3: I mean, in fact, they reference that some of this

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Speaker 3: family has come to stay with them before. So it's

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Speaker 3: this bizarre moment that they're like mauling this poor child

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Speaker 3: who looks terri off the bat.

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Speaker 2: And then there is the scene.

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Speaker 3: That truly scarred me so much as a child, and

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Speaker 3: I need to know how you reacted to the scene.

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Speaker 2: But eventually they get in a car.

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Speaker 3: And they go to where they are staying I guess

428
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Speaker 3: where his sister lives. And when they get out of

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Speaker 3: the car, someone is slitting a goat's throat and like

430
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Speaker 3: blood is gushing. I'm like, I'm genuinely I remember as

431
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Speaker 3: a child being like, what is happening?

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Speaker 2: Do people slick goats' throats in the streets.

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Speaker 3: Of tarant I remember asking my parents, is this a

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Speaker 3: thing that happens? And of course Betty and her daughter

435
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Speaker 3: are horrified by this animal being slaughtered in front of them.

436
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Speaker 2: They wouldn't saying welcome, it's a great honor.

437
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Speaker 1: They give the meat to the floor.

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Speaker 5: Honey, honey, we had to step far right here.

439
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Speaker 3: Is that something you've ever heard of happening in any

440
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Speaker 3: Iranian family?

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Speaker 2: Like, it's so crazy.

442
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 1: I think they were trying so hard. There's several early

443
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 1: scenes where it seems like they're trying to really establish

444
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,119
Speaker 1: the otherness of Islam in a very concrete way, and

445
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 1: so they're really stretching. Like I kind of feel like

446
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: the filmmakers got this project and they were like, oh,

447
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 1: Iran is more westernized than we realized. Shoot, let's amplify

448
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 1: these things that will make it look really other to

449
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,919
Speaker 1: like regular Americans. So like, sure, and there's there are

450
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,679
Speaker 1: villages in Iran where they will like slaughter an animal

451
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: in a sort of sacrificial thing. But this thing exists

452
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: all over the world. I mean this the idea of

453
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,920
Speaker 1: an animal being sacrificed as a homecoming meal or something. Sure,

454
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 1: in my family, certainly not. I'm sure, nobody thought of any.

455
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 3: Notes when they I've been to Iran a number of times.

456
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 2: Have you been back since the rebels?

457
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,439
Speaker 1: I actually haven't been back. I was only there for

458
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,200
Speaker 1: the first few years of my life, but I haven't

459
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 1: been able to go back.

460
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 3: I was eighteen when I went back the first time,

461
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 3: and then I went back again after grad school, and

462
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 3: then I wasn't able to go back because once I

463
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 3: became a journalist, it became essentially impossible.

464
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 2: But my mom lived up until recently.

465
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 3: She had moved back when I was in college and

466
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 3: lived there for twenty years.

467
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: And it's not such a backwards country.

468
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 3: I mean, of course, there are pockets of it that

469
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 3: are backwards, and it is ruled by an Islamic government,

470
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 3: so there are some things that feel very backward.

471
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 2: When you're there.

472
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 3: You have to wear a headscarf and you have to

473
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 3: cover up. What's interesting is, I think, even though I

474
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 3: lived in an Iranian family and we live nothing like

475
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 3: these people to some degree, even when I went at eighteen,

476
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 3: I expected the country to be this very dark, primitive,

477
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 3: backwards place because those were the only images I had seen. Also, right,

478
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 3: that's what media had taught me about what my country was,

479
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 3: and I remember just being so shocked because a friend

480
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 3: of my mom's had a daughter about my age, and

481
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 3: she came to pick me up to drive me around,

482
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 3: and I got in her car and she had a

483
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 3: guns and Roses bumper sticker on the inside of her car,

484
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 3: and I just remember being so shocked by that, Like

485
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, these are.

486
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 2: Just kids like us, Like these are just normal people.

487
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 3: And then you would go to parties and everyone takes

488
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 3: their scarves off and everybody drinks even.

489
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: Though it's not allowed.

490
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: It's actually a pretty sophisticated country, and before the revolution

491
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 3: it was actually considered this very cool place to visit.

492
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 2: It was very urban. Like it is weird to.

493
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 3: See it depicted in this way now having been to Iran,

494
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 3: but I think the first time I saw it, I

495
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 3: had never been, so I.

496
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 2: Was like, maybe this is what happens.

497
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 5: Right.

498
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 3: So we get through this scarring scene about the goat,

499
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 3: and then it becomes clear that they're not going back.

500
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 3: He tells her that he's been fired actually from his job,

501
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 3: which now that we know he's an abusive psycho, kind

502
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: of makes sense. I'm a little curious about what his

503
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: bedside manner might have been like he takes her in

504
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 3: Matob's passports and they are not allowed to leave the apartment.

505
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 3: And there are these really weird details about the family.

506
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 2: Do you remember that they have no furniture?

507
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Like.

508
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: Why don't they have any furniture?

509
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 3: I've never been in an Iranian house with literally no

510
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 3: furniture of anything. He has sometimes to beat picnic style,

511
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 3: but you don't get rid of all the furniture.

512
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: They all sleep in the living room together, as far

513
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 2: as I can tell, Like I don't. It's very weird.

514
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: The word primitive comes up a lot, so so many times.

515
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 9: It just seems so primitive.

516
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 3: Sometimes she'd stay here.

517
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 9: This is a backward, primitive country, to.

518
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 3: Be clear, there are things about the way Iranians force

519
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 3: women to live that I also think are backwards, but.

520
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: It's not such a primitive country.

521
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 3: And we're not going to go through all the back

522
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 3: and forth with this because there's many more scenes that

523
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 3: indicate that Iranians are terrible people and this country is.

524
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: Just the cesspool.

525
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 3: And eventually she realizes that the way she's going to

526
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 3: be able to survive this is that she's going to

527
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 3: have to pretend that she's bought in and that she

528
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 3: wants to stay. And there's this whole section of the

529
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 3: film where she's essentially convincing him that she's decided she.

530
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 2: Is into it.

531
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 3: He continues to be emotionally and physically abusive. There's like

532
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 3: a particularly ugly scene where he beats her in the

533
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 3: hallway of his dog our school, and also hits the daughter.

534
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 3: And an important detail here is that part of the

535
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 3: reason she cannot leave without her daughter, not without my daughter,

536
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,360
Speaker 3: is that in Iranian culture, in a divorce, the man

537
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 3: gets custody. She has no rights to her own daughter

538
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 3: in Iran. So she starts to hatch a plan. She's

539
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 3: constantly trying to reach the Swiss embassy, where there's an

540
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 3: American interests division, and eventually she does make friends with

541
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 3: a couple Iranians. And that's also interesting because there are

542
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 3: these two Iranian men in this movie that are presented

543
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 3: as kind people, but they are both people who love America.

544
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: We love America. We're not real Iranians. We love America.

545
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 2: You are American.

546
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 9: Yes, I like America very much. My son was with

547
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 9: University of Texas.

548
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're supposed to be representing a minority. They're the

549
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 1: antithesis of all the regular Iranians who are primitive. They're

550
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: very well educated, they have librarries. They're talking about gardens

551
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: and ancient Persia.

552
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 7: Whenever I think of what's happening to my country, I

553
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 7: try to remember its gardens.

554
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: In fact, the word paradise is a Persian word.

555
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: They're very affluent and very well dressed. And it doesn't

556
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: seem like they're Muslim or else. They don't have a

557
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: good close relationship.

558
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: They're certainly not outwardly Muslim in any pay.

559
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and so they're the good westernized Iranians who

560
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: are going to rescue her.

561
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 2: And they do.

562
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 3: They rescue her and at their own expense. Right, I

563
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 3: can't really tell if he's a smuggler, but if he

564
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 3: is a smuggler, he decides to give her a free ride.

565
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: How much will it.

566
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 9: Cost when you and your daughter safely back in America?

567
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: Then if you can, perhaps you will reimburse me.

568
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 3: He arranges for her to leave the country, and then

569
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 3: she makes this really treacherous trip over the hills into Turkey,

570
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 3: which I just want to say, is actually pretty insane

571
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 3: that she does this with what is At that point,

572
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 3: I think like a five or six year old child, like,

573
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: it is remarkable that they got out of there safely.

574
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 3: That is an incredibly dangerous and it is true. You

575
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 3: know that the people who are smuggling people out of

576
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 3: Iran are not often good characters.

577
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: They're not good people, so it.

578
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 3: Is actually remarkable that they make it out safely. And

579
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: then the final scene of the movie is she is

580
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 3: in Turkey, but she sees the American embassy and there

581
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 3: is literally an American flag like waving in the wind,

582
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 3: and she's like, oh my god, Usa us like we're here,

583
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 3: We're Hoby, and that's how the movie ends.

584
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 2: I should mention here.

585
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 3: I don't think you know this about me, but my

586
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 3: dad went back to Iran in eighty five. And my

587
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 3: dad had been the president of Chase Tehran when the

588
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 3: revolution happened. He had been blacklisted and his best friend

589
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 3: had become the Minister of Economics for this short period,

590
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 3: so he was put under house arrest. And when my

591
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 3: parents left Iran, they made it out through the airport,

592
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 3: but it was because there just wasn't any organization yet.

593
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: And so when I was ten years old, he decided

594
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 3: he wanted to go.

595
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 2: Back to Iran.

596
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 3: Really in a way that's similar to this story, which

597
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 3: is he hadn't been home for a long time, he

598
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 3: missed his family, He felt some draw I mean, in

599
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 3: the end, this idea that you can leave your country behind,

600
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 3: like if I said to you, you have to leave

601
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 3: New York today and never come back, like you do

602
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 3: feel sure this poll and in the movie that poll

603
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 3: is presented as insane, but it really made sense to me.

604
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 3: I mean, my dad really wanted to go home and

605
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 3: see his mom and see his family, and I was

606
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 3: very scared as a child. I was ten when he went.

607
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 3: I was really really scared. And when it came time

608
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: to leave, he had a perfectly good experience while he

609
00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: was there, but when it came time to leave, they

610
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: wouldn't let him.

611
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: Leave through the airport.

612
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: They were basically like, you have to stay here, and

613
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 3: he ultimately decided to make the trek out of Iran

614
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 3: by foot into Pakistan.

615
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 7: Oh wow.

616
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: There have been.

617
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: Times when people have doubted her story, and I just

618
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 3: know that that is a real thing that happens pretty

619
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 3: regularly because my dad did it. And it's why I

620
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: know how dangerous it is. Like he kept notes through

621
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 3: the trip he had to sew his money into his

622
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,239
Speaker 3: clothes so that if they searched him they couldn't find it,

623
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: so that he would have some money when he arrived

624
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: in Pakistan, and he was not a citizen. We were citizens,

625
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 3: but my dad had always kept his green card because

626
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: he was concerned he wouldn't be able to go back

627
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 3: if he was a citizen. And he got to the

628
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 3: American embassy in Pakistan, and we were living in England

629
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 3: at the time, and he was not allowed to come

630
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: see us because anti Iranian sentiment was so great. They

631
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 3: were not giving visas to Iranian citizens even if they

632
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 3: had a green card because of all the hijackings.

633
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: So we actually had to meet him in Switzerland.

634
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

635
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 3: So in many ways this movie mirrors aspects of my

636
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 3: own life, but in a weird, twisted, funhouse mirror kind

637
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 3: of way, like we were on the other side of this,

638
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 3: which is he was Iranian, but he was trapped and

639
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 3: he was experiencing the anti Iranian sentiment that Moody talks

640
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 3: about in the film. And so it is so odd

641
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 3: for me to watch it. It's not that I don't

642
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 3: believe that there's truth in this version of events, it's

643
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 3: just presented in a way that's so objectionable to me. Yeah,

644
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 3: And I think wouldn't matter so much if it wasn't

645
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: the only representation, right, Like, if there was lots of

646
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 3: art about Iran, if there was lots of films and

647
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: TV shows, and then there was this one in the mix,

648
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: I'd be like, Okay, well that's one woman's experience whatever.

649
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,959
Speaker 3: But it's like for most Americans, that's the only representation

650
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: they saw of Iranians their whole life until Charles of

651
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 3: Sunset came on TV.

652
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: Yes, Tank, Yeah, I think that's the thing is no

653
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: one is questioning like the validity of the story or

654
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: or I guess some people are, but not not a

655
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: lot of people. But I'm rooting for her on some level.

656
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: To get away from your abusive husband, that's great. Like

657
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: maybe if this was made in a different era. I

658
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: always wonder it could have been good, because they've done

659
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: a good job of it. You know, I've watched it

660
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: a few times now, and every time I watch it,

661
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: I just have a lot of questions about her own

662
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: character because we don't actually learn that much about her.

663
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: It is only in the aftermath of watching it. At

664
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: some point I realized that she became like evangelical, I mean,

665
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: for Christianity is a very big part of her identity.

666
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: And so I wonder if the movie entirely from her

667
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 1: pov where she is even more fanatical than a lot

668
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: of the Iranians that she's pointing to here. And so

669
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: maybe that's why she sees them as primitive savages, perhaps

670
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: because we know that that is part of a type

671
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: of Christian rhetoric. So maybe if she had felt like

672
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: she could save these Iranians and convert them to Christianity,

673
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: could they have had potential in her eyes.

674
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 3: So there are a couple things that happen in the

675
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: aftermath of this movie that I looked into, and I

676
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: am curious if you know about.

677
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 4: So.

678
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 3: One is mattob the daughter actually wrote her own book

679
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 3: many years later. She wrote her own book in twenty fifteen,

680
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: and she is also very Christian. She talks a lot

681
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 3: about her faith. I didn't read the book, but in

682
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 3: the book and in her interviews around that time, she

683
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 3: talks a lot about how her faith saved her, how

684
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 3: it made it possible for her to forgive her father,

685
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 3: although they never had contact again. And again, I don't

686
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: want to be seen in any way, like I am

687
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 3: doubting the veracity of the events here. But one thing

688
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: that's odd is she writes about her time in Iran

689
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 3: like she remembers it clearly. Oh and she was five

690
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: years old, right, So I do find that weird. Like

691
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 3: I left Iran when I was three and then lived

692
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 3: in Paris and came to America when I.

693
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Was four or five.

694
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 3: I have very few memories of that time in my life,

695
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 3: like glimpses kind of, right. So there's a weird thing

696
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: about that book where it's like she writes again based

697
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 3: on interviews because I didn't read the book, she writes

698
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 3: sort of extensively about what happened did Iroan, like seeing

699
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 3: her dad hit her mom about intervening, very detailed descriptions

700
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 3: of their time there.

701
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: So I thought that was a bit odd.

702
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 3: But the crazier thing I have to tell you is

703
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 3: that there was a documentary made about the father, about Moody.

704
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 3: Oh I did not know this, Yes, okay, So there's

705
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: a documentary that was made in two thousand and three,

706
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: made by an Iranian finish director, and it's called Without

707
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: My Daughter. All right, So okay, perfect, And so it's

708
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 3: actually quite hard to find. But I did find some

709
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 3: links to it on YouTube, and I was like, I'll

710
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 3: just watch like a couple minutes of this, right, I'm

711
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 3: not going to watch this whole documentary that clearly has

712
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 3: some weird agenda, and I ended up watching the whole.

713
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: Thing, Like the whole thing in parts.

714
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,479
Speaker 9: In all six parts, I have been portrayed as a liar,

715
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 9: a woman beat her, and a kidnap her. I have

716
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 9: been denied the right to see my daughter for fifteen years,

717
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 9: or even to talk to her. My sin, my only sin,

718
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 9: was that I love my only child, my daughter Macadi.

719
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: It was deranged.

720
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 3: It is based on extensive interviews with him, but the

721
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 3: action of this documentary is him essentially stalking his daughter.

722
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: Oh no.

723
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: The premise of the movie is that he is trying

724
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: to get in touch with Mattob, who he has not

725
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,959
Speaker 3: seen since they left Iran, and.

726
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 2: He is calling her over and over again.

727
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: So there's multiple scenes of him being like, pick up,

728
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 3: pick up, Mattob is your father, I want to talk

729
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: to you.

730
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: Pick up.

731
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 3: There's one scene where someone answers and he gets off

732
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 3: and he's like, that was Betty.

733
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: I know that was Betty.

734
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 3: Like it is literally you're watching this very uncomfortable person.

735
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 3: I will say that this movie did not persuade me

736
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 3: of his innocence. He does not come off well in

737
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 3: this movie, and he is repeatedly like reaching out to them.

738
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: I can't even imagine how terrifying this must have been

739
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 3: for Betty and her daughter to get these messages. There's

740
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 3: a bananas scene where he screens the movie, not his

741
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 3: own movie, but not without my daughter to like a

742
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 3: class of people. And when that scene comes up of

743
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 3: him beating his wife in the hallway, he makes a

744
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 3: joke about it and laughs, again, not persuading me that

745
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: these things did not happen. You are making me feel

746
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 3: like you are a monster. Oh, it is the strangest

747
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 3: movie you will ever see.

748
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: Of course, he does not get in touch with her.

749
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: Oh there's another crazy thing I cannot fail to tell.

750
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 3: You, which is there is a scene where the filmmaker

751
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 3: goes to her university where she is currently enrolled, and

752
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 3: asks someone at that university to give her a videotape

753
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 3: of her father there, besieging her.

754
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: To make contact with him. They are literally stocking this

755
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 2: girl on camera. Oh my god, it is wil actually

756
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 2: pretty upsetting.

757
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: He was like, who made this movie and why did

758
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 3: they think this was a good idea. The only thing

759
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 3: in this movie that's actually a little bit upsetting from

760
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 3: a more normal standpoint is that they interview the judge

761
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 3: that gave Betty custody and granted her divorce with him

762
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 3: in absentia, like he was not a party to his

763
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: own divorce, And that judge turns out to be a

764
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: virulent racist and anti Semite who says that if he

765
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 3: was in charge of the country, there'd be a lot

766
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: fewer Iranians on earth, like he would basically kill them all,

767
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,959
Speaker 3: and then said something really anti semitic, So like, that's

768
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 3: not great.

769
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 2: But so I don't know that he would have gotten.

770
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 3: A fair shake even if he hadn't been a troubled person.

771
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: But I'm like, that does not actually persuade me in

772
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 3: the context of the fact that this is a movie

773
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 3: made entirely about harassing your child who's made it pretty

774
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 3: clear she doesn't want to have contact with you.

775
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: Oh my god, So that's bad. See it is the

776
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: aftermath this movie.

777
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: Would it just would have been better off that no

778
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: one talked about it. But I even remember the twenty

779
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 1: fifth anniversary of the film. There was all these articles

780
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: quoting Iranian Americans. Yea, and it might have been even

781
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: around when Mathop's book came out. But there were these

782
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: attempts to revive interest in this film, and so occasionally

783
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: people to ask me, have you seen it? I'd be like, yeah, yeah,

784
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: of course, and then sometimes they would watch it and

785
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 1: then they'd be like, wow, this is such a terrible movie.

786
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: Why doesn't everyone just ignore it? Which is a question

787
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 1: that makes sense in a way, but except what we're saying,

788
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: it's like the era made it so that we couldn't

789
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: forget it. Yeah, Like this badly made film ended up

790
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: having a much bigger position in the psyche of our

791
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: culture than people think because it was the only one.

792
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 3: Really honestly, this should have been a lifetime movie, like

793
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 3: that's what it would be now. But yes, it just

794
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 3: ended up being this significant cultural moment for Iranians. I

795
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 3: don't know that it was this larger significant cultural moment.

796
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: The movie did flop, and it was critically panned and

797
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 3: it didn't make much.

798
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: Money, thank goodness.

799
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 3: Luckily for all of us it was a flop because

800
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 3: I don't know if I would have been able to

801
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: take it if it was an Oscar movie on top

802
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 3: of everything else.

803
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: Right, Oh my god.

804
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, for Jesse, I feel like we have really

805
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 3: had a moment here about this movie.

806
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for talking to me about it.

807
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: But before you go, I want to spend some time

808
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,959
Speaker 3: talking about your new book, which I just finished reading

809
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 3: last night.

810
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 2: It is amazing. It's so funny and clever, and it's this.

811
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 3: Really sharp satire about a family of Iranian Americans living

812
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 3: in where else but Tarandelis, which is the name of

813
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 3: the book. The book comes out in June, but it's

814
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 3: available for pre order. Now, tell people a little bit

815
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: about it.

816
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I have been working on this book for

817
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: a really long time. It sort of sat with me

818
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,240
Speaker 1: for a while. When I started it, there wasn't Shaws

819
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: of Sunset. It was actually right before. Yeah, it was

820
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: in my head about an Iranian American family, the first

821
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: Iranian American reality TV family, at a time of war

822
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: with Iran, which has always been my big nightmare and

823
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: continues to be. It's just a thing that goes in

824
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: and out of our psyche every few years, with geopolitical

825
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: landscape always being so unstable in regards to Middle East,

826
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: so that was all I had at at one point,

827
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: and it was supposed to be my second novel. Actually,

828
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: I was having trouble selling my second novel, and all

829
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: these editors were like telling me what they wanted my

830
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: book to be, and they wanted it to be more

831
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: like these essays I was just churning out at a

832
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 1: rapid point at that period, like between like two thousand

833
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: and eight twenty twelve, I was writing a lot of

834
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: essays about like Iranian American experience, but the New York

835
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 1: Times and things like that.

836
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: It was like during the personal essay industrial complex.

837
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: Yes, I was just hoping it would help my first

838
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: books book sales. I was much more interested in journalism

839
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: and then fiction, but not this other thing. So I

840
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: started writing just for myself, a parody of some of

841
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: the requests the publishers were making, which was just like

842
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: we just want lots of women, just making about Iranian

843
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: American women. But I also didn't want to write the

844
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: trauma porn that is not without my daughter, you know,

845
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: I was very allergic to that. So I thought, what

846
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: about writing about something that I've never been able to

847
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: escape as an la based Iranian. I thought, why don't

848
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: I write about Taranngelis, and so I did write this

849
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: book with an all female cast and just like a

850
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: dad and like a cat and like a boyfriend that's

851
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: kind of hovers. And then I started getting interested in it,

852
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: like it became this satire, but I was kind of

853
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: approaching it like a weird experiment for myself. And so

854
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 1: then my second novel got published, and then I wrote

855
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: a was these nonfiction books, and so it's been something

856
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: I've worked on for years, but it wasn't until the

857
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: pandemic where I felt like, oh wait, this is actually

858
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: a pandemic story. If I said it during the pandemic,

859
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 1: I have a really good structure for it, especially because

860
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: just before the pandemic, Iranian's always remember this, January twenty

861
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: twenty looked very likely that we were going to go

862
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: to war with Iran, and it almost felt like the

863
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: pandemic provided a pause on that plan.

864
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 2: It did.

865
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that was like, to me, a very perfect

866
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: setting for it. And during the early pandemic, I was

867
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: also reading Kevin Kwan's Crazy Rich Asian series. Oh yeah,

868
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: I really want this to be like a Crazy Rich

869
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 1: West Asians, because what I liked about those books was

870
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: the satire, and I felt like some people would miss

871
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: the satire and just think like it's an advertisement for wild,

872
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 1: rich people.

873
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 3: No, it definitely comes through that it's satire. I want

874
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 3: to say this because I feel like some people have

875
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 3: this too. I'm not someone who's dying to read a

876
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 3: lot of pandemic stuff just because I feel like I

877
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: just lived it. But this felt very relatable to me.

878
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 3: The pandemic stuff felt very natural to the story. I

879
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,959
Speaker 3: didn't feel like I was reliving it in this terrible way.

880
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 3: It was a really important plot device. So I can't

881
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 3: recommend the book enough. I also want to say that

882
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 3: for people who haven't read your other books, your nonfiction

883
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 3: books are amazing. I think the thing that you do

884
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 3: really well in this book is that, even though it's

885
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 3: satire and the characters are in some ways awful, I

886
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 3: found myself rooting for them. I sort of loved to

887
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 3: these girls and I related to them. And a thing

888
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 3: that I think really comes out in the book is

889
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 3: that even in these families where they try so hard

890
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 3: to escape their iranian ness, yes, there is a generational

891
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 3: trauma that is just a current in the family and

892
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 3: handed down to each of them, and that is a

893
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 3: reality that I think doesn't get expressed in this way

894
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 3: because it is so often either trauma, porn or modlin

895
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 3: and to do it in this very comedic way, I.

896
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 2: Felt like it was really effective and really thank good.

897
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 2: I read this book so much.

898
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, because I had to have really

899
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: come to like the characters. That was really important for me.

900
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: So that was when I really felt like it was

901
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: finally done, like where I started to have some affection

902
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: for them, even when they did some of the most

903
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: horrible things imaginable. That was the challenge, and I feel

904
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: like it brought to me a sense of peace about

905
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: some of the aspects of a diaspora that drive me nuts. Yes,

906
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: I didn't want it to just be like another book

907
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: making fun of Iranians or hating on Iranians. I just

908
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 1: wanted it to be like, let's talk about this thing

909
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: that we all feel weird about a little bit. It

910
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: also helped me to like imagine it like a film

911
00:42:58,239 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 1: or a TV series.

912
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: I really feel like it could be by the way.

913
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 3: That's one of the things I was thinking when I

914
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 3: was reading it. It's really cinematic in the way you presented.

915
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 3: I feel like it could be a really good like

916
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:07,439
Speaker 3: HBO series, so.

917
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:08,439
Speaker 1: It would be really fun.

918
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 3: So if anyone's listening who is looking to pick up

919
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 3: a series, I really think it's great and I should

920
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 3: mention I didn't mention this at the top, that it

921
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 3: is one of the time most anticipated books, like it's

922
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 3: getting rave early attention, so everybody should go out and

923
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 3: get it. And thank you so much for doing this

924
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 3: with me today.

925
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 2: I love this so fun.

926
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 3: Any time, Jess, I want to set up our next episode,

927
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: and I must admit I learned something about you when

928
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 3: we were recording this, which is that you in fact

929
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 3: attended a Miss America had.

930
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: Yes, attended, to be clear, not competed in.

931
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 6: But this episode is actually about Vanessa Williams, who made

932
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 6: history in the nineteen eighties as the first black Miss America.

933
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: And we'll look at everything that came after that. I

934
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: hope to do the best I can.

935
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 7: You up to get every person in Mars, no matter

936
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 7: what rate is.

937
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 5: Seen, to cover all.

938
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening.

939
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 3: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking

940
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: about and want us to explore in a future episode.

941
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 3: Email us at in retropod at gmail dot com. Or

942
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 3: find us on Instagram at in Retropod.

943
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 6: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

944
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 6: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you

945
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 6: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,

946
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 6: which we may or may not delete.

947
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 3: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

948
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 3: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books

949
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 3: Feminist Fight Club and.

950
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 2: This Is eighteen.

951
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 6: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media.

952
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 6: Lauren Hansen is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our

953
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 6: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Jaran

954
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 6: Atia is our researcher and associate producer.

955
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: Our executive producer from the media is sin Levy. Our

956
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 3: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump.

957
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: And Katrina Norbel.

958
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 3: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda

959
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 3: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are

960
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 3: your hosts Susie Bannacarum.

961
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 6: And Jessica Bennett. We are also executive producers. For even

962
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 6: more check out in retropod dot com.

963
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: See you next week.