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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust that's.

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Speaker 2: Three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, trust me, trust me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 2: I've never lived.

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Speaker 3: To you, I've never had a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me.

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Speaker 4: The podcast about colds.

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Speaker 2: Extreme belief and manipulation from two definitely not doctors who've

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Speaker 2: actually experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And today is part two of our interview with Ian Rafalco.

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Speaker 2: He is a former scientologist from a high ranking family

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Speaker 2: whose dad also happens to be a YouTube star who

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Speaker 2: makes medical videos and sells supplements. Last week, he told

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Speaker 2: us about his experiences in scientology, and this week we're

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Speaker 2: going to go deeper into how Ian ultimately left, what

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Speaker 2: that meant for his family life, and how his dad's

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Speaker 2: lucrative online presence and supplement company toes the line of

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Speaker 2: multi level marketing.

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Speaker 1: He'll talk to us about the viral TikTok video he

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Speaker 1: posted and what she said he was going to end

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Speaker 1: his own life, why he decided not to, how his

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Speaker 1: family reacted, and the paranoia he fell after going public.

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Speaker 2: Obviously content warning when we will be discussing suicide in

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Speaker 2: this episode. So that's your heads up for that, Megan,

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Speaker 2: before you talk to Ian, can I kindly know your

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Speaker 2: cult use thing?

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Speaker 4: This week?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this week Hulu released a documentary on the two

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Speaker 1: by Twos. It's called Impact Times, Night Life, The Secrets

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Speaker 1: of the Two by two Church. It's fifty minutes. Just

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Speaker 1: type in two by Twos on Hulu and you'll get

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Speaker 1: a broad overview of what this church is all about.

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Speaker 2: I have not watched it yet. What are your thoughts?

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Speaker 2: I mean, how I thought it was.

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Speaker 1: Right on point. There's still so much more to be discussed.

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Speaker 1: This should be like twelve parts and you're still barely

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Speaker 1: scratching the surface. But please watch because I guess they said,

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Speaker 1: of it stays at the top, they'll do more episodes

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Speaker 1: on it.

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Speaker 4: Oh okay, it's.

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Speaker 1: Been in their top ten. It's been doing good.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing. That's like the first real, like mainstream doc.

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Speaker 4: About the two w I twos.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, in America at least, like I know, sixty

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Speaker 1: minutes Australia has done something.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, it's weird to have it on us soil.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, I can't wait

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Speaker 2: to watch it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what about you? The cultiest thing that happened to.

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Speaker 1: You this week?

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Speaker 2: Well, mostly this week I've been inundated with a music

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Speaker 2: video preparation because I'm doing it in a video. But

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Speaker 2: otherwise I read this article about a property for sale,

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Speaker 2: which I please would love for someone to buy this

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Speaker 2: for me. It's only four million dollars.

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Speaker 4: Oh and this count. It's so affordable.

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Speaker 2: It was a cult settlement, It was a cult compound

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Speaker 2: in the fifties, and the history actually it's four point

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Speaker 2: eight million dollars. Who cares, no biggie, So this was

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Speaker 2: the home of this cult where there wasn't actually a

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Speaker 2: suicide bombing in nineteen fifty eight that killed the leader.

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Speaker 2: It was a suicide bombing, so the two bombers also died.

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Speaker 2: This is not why I want to buy this property.

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Speaker 2: If you heard about this, it's his name was Krishna

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Speaker 2: Vena and it's this West Hills compound in Box Canyon

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Speaker 2: in the Los Angeles area. And the group was called WKFL,

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Speaker 2: which stands for Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith Love. It was founded

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Speaker 2: in nineteen forty nine, and it had all your classic

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Speaker 2: cult characteristics. He was sleeping with everybody's wives, he was

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Speaker 2: making everybody dress the same, people were working kind of NonStop.

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Speaker 2: He likened himself to people like Joseph Smith and some

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Speaker 2: other religious leader I can't remember which one it was,

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Speaker 2: basically saying, you know, like he's he's got all of

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Speaker 2: this ancient spiritual knowledge, so very very classic cult stuff.

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Speaker 2: Oh and Charles Manson and his people would visit because

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Speaker 2: you know, there were so many communes at that time

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Speaker 2: in LA so they would all like hang out with

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Speaker 2: each other and they would come there. But what happened was,

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Speaker 2: I guess two of the husbands of some of the

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Speaker 2: women in the group kind of figured out what was

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Speaker 2: going on and started to rebel, and they tried to

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Speaker 2: go to the authorities, and the authorities didn't care. So

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Speaker 2: then they just bombed the place and they killed the leader,

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Speaker 2: also killed two children in the process, and I think

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Speaker 2: some other people as well, and that was the end

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Speaker 2: off that car. Okay, I don't want to live there

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Speaker 2: because of that, But this was nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Ghosts don't care about time passage, Lola, it.

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Speaker 4: Was nineteen fifty eight.

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Speaker 2: Well, fortunately I don't believe in ghost but if I

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Speaker 2: did see them, I'd be very excited. I've been wanting

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Speaker 2: to see my whole life. But now, obviously that was

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Speaker 2: a long time ago. Now there's just this giant property

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Speaker 2: that's available for sale. There's a tunnel from the pulpit

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Speaker 2: but anyway, there's a natural amphitheater, there's a waterfall, there

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Speaker 2: are caves, and like I said, the tunnel very important.

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Speaker 2: Somebody wants to spend four point eight million dollars to

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Speaker 2: buy this property.

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Speaker 4: For me, I would accept let.

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Speaker 1: Us know you know where to find us, or just

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Speaker 1: rat us five stars either or.

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Speaker 4: I guess I'll take that too, almost as good. Should

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Speaker 4: we talk to Ian, Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: So you were kind of questioning this whole time, but

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Speaker 2: when you're eighteen, this was the only world that you knew,

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Speaker 2: so you were like, I'm going to just go along

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Speaker 2: with what everyone does in this community.

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Speaker 3: It had a lot to do with the reaction to

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Speaker 3: my behavior, So like, where is my whole life? Everything

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do was like either a waste of

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Speaker 3: time or dumb or you know, stupid or off purpose.

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Speaker 3: Is something Scientology would say. Or they'd also say contrast

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Speaker 3: survival is a fun that means, well, if you're doing

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Speaker 3: pro survival activities, you are contributing to this ben net

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Speaker 3: positive right too. And scientology is always because it's the

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Speaker 3: only group that helps people, is included in that. But

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Speaker 3: anything contras survival would just be the other side of

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Speaker 3: that coin. So I'm not actually doing anything that matters.

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Speaker 3: I'm not doing anything helpful. I'm actually limiting my freedom

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Speaker 3: spiritually by like do like fucking around or whatever.

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Speaker 1: So I having a normal life right.

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Speaker 3: Right by trying to just be like a normal person.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was very socially awkward, but I wanted

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Speaker 3: nothing more when I was a kid than to be like, like,

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Speaker 3: I want to go to public school. I want to

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Speaker 3: see what these people are doing. But that's where they

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Speaker 3: that's where they give kids psych drugs, That's where they

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Speaker 3: give kids. You know, you could talk to a therapist

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Speaker 3: while you're at school, they could report you for abuse

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Speaker 3: at home, they could like look into you like there

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Speaker 3: was all these risks. I found out later the most

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Speaker 3: likely reason was because my parents didn't vaccinate me when

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Speaker 3: I was a kid, when I was a baby, So

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Speaker 3: that was probably the more direct reason why, which I

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Speaker 3: still think is insane. So with all this life like

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Speaker 3: prior being like everyone treating me like shit and like

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Speaker 3: we'll just hang in there. But once I started dipping

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Speaker 3: my toe into scientology, the more I did, the more

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Speaker 3: my parents. Like I remember very vividly my dad like

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Speaker 3: I was on this really important service, this really super

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Speaker 3: secret auditing thing. I was living in clear Water, and

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Speaker 3: my dad just pops by and he's like nice to me,

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Speaker 3: and he's like encouraging my personal goals and like it's

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Speaker 3: not about scientific it's just like it was really random,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, whoa, this is is like the

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Speaker 3: first time I think he's ever like not been against

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Speaker 3: like what I'm doing in my life.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And so it just kind of, you know, it fucks

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Speaker 3: with you. It really drills its way in your head.

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Speaker 3: And just something as simple as being appreciated or being

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Speaker 3: valued by someone. I felt very invisible growing up, and

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Speaker 3: I think it's very hard to not get hooked on

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Speaker 3: that feeling. When you get this affirmation and you get

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Speaker 3: inscientology was called altitude, which is just higher position, higher respect,

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Speaker 3: you know, over trauma, bonding exactly well.

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Speaker 2: Especially when you're someone who was like hoping you'd have

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Speaker 2: a real family who actually loved you somewhere else, and

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Speaker 2: then suddenly your dad's paying attention to you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah for the first time. I mean, yeah, I'd been

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Speaker 3: moved out. So my I think right around the turn

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Speaker 3: of where like the YouTuber economy kind of boomed, was

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Speaker 3: when my dad started making a lot more money and

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Speaker 3: he started the algorithm was was now favoring partners, and

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Speaker 3: he started just making like literally millions of more dollars,

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Speaker 3: and so I was getting flown back and forth. It

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Speaker 3: was super easy to be like to be like, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm just going to go to flag and get this done,

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Speaker 3: or if something needed to happen, I would just be

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Speaker 3: flown out somewhere. I've been onto a lot of places,

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Speaker 3: mostly was for the purposes of scientology. Even when I

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Speaker 3: went to Aruba for the first time, the first time

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Speaker 3: I ever left country was to go to the Free Winds,

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Speaker 3: which is the boat they have the ship. Oh, it

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Speaker 3: was a twenty five hundred dollars course called competence in leadership,

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Speaker 3: and I did nothing but clean the ship and exercise

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Speaker 3: whoa for two weeks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah leadership to me.

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Speaker 3: Wow, you know I learned a lot about how to

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Speaker 3: scrub the decks of a boat.

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Speaker 4: That's crazy.

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Speaker 2: This is all tracks Like you dip your toe in,

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Speaker 2: you get validated for it. Of course you would go

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Speaker 2: further down this path. So what starts planting? Like maybe

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Speaker 2: actually this is bad and I should leave.

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Speaker 3: What I mentioned about the lies, Like I found out

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Speaker 3: they were actually lying to me, and that like like

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Speaker 3: once I took a step back and I was like,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to take a break from this because this

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Speaker 3: is just like so heavy. Like the whole five month

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Speaker 3: situation was really just a blur, a confusing fuck the blur.

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Speaker 3: I was getting threatened all the time. Every other day

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Speaker 3: while I was there, I was getting security checked, which

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Speaker 3: means you get on an e meter with an ethics

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Speaker 3: officer and they ask you what your crimes are and

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Speaker 3: like what you've done wrong in the past two days,

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Speaker 3: like keeping you fresh and up to date on all

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Speaker 3: of your but literally with like a piece of hardware

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Speaker 3: that you are conditioned to believe will read your mind,

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Speaker 3: like they can tell, like you can tell when you

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Speaker 3: have a thought and you're like, what's that thought right there? Yeah? No,

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Speaker 3: right right there? No, not that what is that right there?

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Speaker 3: And then you're like you give them something many people

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Speaker 3: give just like false. I mean, I'm sure I can

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Speaker 3: remember probably a dozen times I've had to just like

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Speaker 3: alter the narrative of something to like make it sound more, like,

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Speaker 3: make it worse so that the person would be except

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Speaker 3: what I said and it like uh, and they would

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Speaker 3: let me leave because you can't leave.

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Speaker 1: In it's so cos I mean, this is so illegal,

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Speaker 1: it's insane.

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Speaker 4: It should be yeah.

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Speaker 3: Which is the point of advocacy for it and like

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Speaker 3: sharing and you know, getting these people's voices out there.

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Speaker 2: But when you said you couldn't leave during that five

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Speaker 2: month period, what does that mean?

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Speaker 3: It means I was in the middle of an ethics cycle,

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Speaker 3: which all cycles have a start, change and a stop,

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Speaker 3: so you cannot leave mid anything. I think I left

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Speaker 3: once and it was because I got like advanced approval

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Speaker 3: to like go home for Christmas for like two days,

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Speaker 3: but I had to come right back. And they're like,

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Speaker 3: if you leave, if you want to go somewhere else,

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Speaker 3: we will consider that it's called a blow or an

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Speaker 3: unexpected departure, and you will be declared a suppressive person,

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Speaker 3: which is like a piece of paper that like literally says,

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Speaker 3: no scientologist is permitted to talk to this person, associate

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Speaker 3: with this person. This is a bad person. They're disconnected.

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Speaker 3: Disfellowship meant is a similar aspect. So you have this threat,

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Speaker 3: all your family's gone, all your friends are gone, this

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Speaker 3: looming sort of thing, so you do what you do.

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Speaker 3: But once I left and I pulled back, it was

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Speaker 3: like everyone is really careful, and everyone was really careful

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Speaker 3: around me, and they didn't want to say anything specific,

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Speaker 3: and I could tell that there was this weird, like

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Speaker 3: overly nonchalant aspect to it. And my dad and my

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Speaker 3: brother would take me on these long walks randomly where

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Speaker 3: we would talk about all that they've been able to

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Speaker 3: improve about themselves through scientology specialists who they could who

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Speaker 3: if I was interested, they could, you know, they could.

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Speaker 3: These people are really you know, intelligent people. They could

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Speaker 3: they could help me figure out all my problems, you know,

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Speaker 3: get me fixed up. And I was like, what I

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Speaker 3: want is I want the senior case supervisor of Flag,

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Speaker 3: which is like the top tech guy there almost in

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Speaker 3: all of scientology. I want him to directly say that

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Speaker 3: they fucked up, and I want an apology from the

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Speaker 3: people who are threatening to declare me. And my dad

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Speaker 3: was like, well, obviously that's not going to happen, and

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Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, that's kind of my point. That's kind

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Speaker 3: of why these walks are pointless. So I just they

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Speaker 3: kept giving me reasons basically to back away. And it

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Speaker 3: wasn't until I was going through the situations with my

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Speaker 3: ex that I was like, I have no one who

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Speaker 3: will take my side, no one who has my back.

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Speaker 3: So I separated, eventually got divorced, and then I got further.

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Speaker 3: I sort of stopped talking to my parents as much,

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Speaker 3: kind of just fed them whatever they wanted to so

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Speaker 3: they wouldn't be like really overly concerned with like possessing me.

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Speaker 3: And that was sort of I was just like, I'm

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Speaker 3: out of here. This is all I've ever known, and

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Speaker 3: I kind of it kind of was like a slow

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Speaker 3: to it was a pretty quick decline from there.

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Speaker 2: I just want to note that even though you are

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Speaker 2: you were physically not being restrained during those five months

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Speaker 2: to threaten to lose everyone in your life is a

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Speaker 2: form of coercion and keeping you there psychologically, even if

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Speaker 2: not physically, it still amounts to.

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Speaker 3: A tragic Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, if all you

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Speaker 3: know is like is this very specific life, it's very

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Speaker 3: different than I thought it would be to leave scientology.

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Speaker 3: It's it is nothing like it's described when you're in scientology,

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Speaker 3: So like you really have this fear, Like I had

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Speaker 3: fear about seeing a therapist when I got out, just

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Speaker 3: because of how often that was like drilled into my brain,

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Speaker 3: like therapy is bad. The only alternative to psychiatry is

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Speaker 3: like what paying tens of thousands, you know, one hundred

288
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Speaker 3: thousand dollars to go up this bridge to total freedom

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Speaker 3: that maybe at some point years down the road you'll

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Speaker 3: go free. It's just so ambiguous and just a.

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Speaker 1: Quick note on that, not to harken back to South

292
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Speaker 1: Park again, but one of the things that interests me

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Speaker 1: about scientology is that there's so many people who don't

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Speaker 1: know what the end of that road actually looks like, right,

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Speaker 1: Like I remember watching a documentary where the guy finally

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Speaker 1: reaches the end of the road and they hand him

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Speaker 1: a piece of paper and it's like a drawing that

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Speaker 1: He's like, what the fuck, So, like, you know, did.

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Speaker 2: You ever get that information or did it come to

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Speaker 2: you after?

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Speaker 3: Mostly after I mean I'd heard the information, but you

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Speaker 3: kind of just it's kind of like the difference between

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Speaker 3: watching the Star Wars, the first three Star Wars and

304
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Speaker 3: then learning the extended trilogy, like the lore and like

305
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 3: trying to really you know, you kind of understand the

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00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,560
Speaker 3: force to somewhatever extent, and it is it is almost

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Speaker 3: the same. It's like there's a gradual build and a

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Speaker 3: certain point where the end result and the information contained

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Speaker 3: in these actions is strictly confidential. And they run drills

310
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Speaker 3: on like like they practice these people to be like

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Speaker 3: no one can leave the building with these materials. Very

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Speaker 3: strict security training. They got like mag locked doors everywhere,

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Speaker 3: security clearances. You have to be prepared to even be

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Speaker 3: allowed to like be invited to even look at these materials.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, when you get there, you learn, I mean,

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Speaker 3: especially on these they're called operating theton levels or OT levels,

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Speaker 3: you know, up towards the top, you just it gets

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Speaker 3: more and more unhinged. And on these plates stop there

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Speaker 3: are etched or scribbled on I guess al Ron Hubbard's

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Speaker 3: writings and descriptions of Xenu and galactic tax audits that

321
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Speaker 3: were actually lies to funnel people into cryo chambers that

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Speaker 3: were then flown to Earth that were then dropped in volcanoes.

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Speaker 4: Fi author.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and it makes sense that they're like keeping

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Speaker 1: you away from this information.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I knew someone

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Speaker 2: once upon a time who was quite rich and had

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Speaker 2: joined Scientology and had put a fuck ton of money

329
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Speaker 2: in so he was able to get to that level,

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Speaker 2: I think more quickly than most people. And he got

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Speaker 2: to that level and saw it and was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's this.

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Speaker 4: And he left and he gave them half a million dollars.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, breaks my heart.

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Speaker 1: I just remember a guy, he was like a famous director,

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00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,400
Speaker 1: being like it was like a drawing with crown or something.

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Speaker 4: Is that who it is? And he was just like,

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Speaker 4: what the hell.

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Speaker 1: It's so crazy that they're hiding the true purpose of it.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that's so common and cult The inner circle

341
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Speaker 2: has the craziest information that you really have to be

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Speaker 2: so invested to be trusted with such bunkers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah or true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one that you can only do on the

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Speaker 3: Freuins on this ship that my dad assured me, Well this,

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Speaker 3: you know, of all all the stuff you may have heard,

347
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,000
Speaker 3: like OT eight, this has never been leaked very much.

348
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Speaker 3: A lot it has later I learned this, but like

349
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Speaker 3: you know, uh, and and there are fifteen OT levels

350
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Speaker 3: supposedly on this chart, but it's kind of becoming common

351
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,040
Speaker 3: knowledge now that Elon Hubbard actually never was able to

352
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Speaker 3: finish this. So he he himself, I think didn't even

353
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Speaker 3: get through OT seven. So there's one, there's like there's

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Speaker 3: one through eight and those are those are all there.

355
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Speaker 3: But like even now there there's like this little carrot

356
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Speaker 3: on a on a string where OT nine and ten

357
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,760
Speaker 3: are coming out any year now, once we reach a

358
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Speaker 3: certain number of ots, once a certain number of people

359
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Speaker 3: have finished this, we're just gonna release nine and ten

360
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,719
Speaker 3: and they'll accept your money to prepare for nine and ten.

361
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Speaker 4: That's just magically going to appear.

362
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Speaker 3: They don't exist.

363
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Speaker 4: Oh wow, yeah wow.

364
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 3: They literally have to either write them, which it puts

365
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Speaker 3: a a shitload of complication in their whole like excuse

366
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,199
Speaker 3: structure for why they're doing things in general, Like you

367
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,480
Speaker 3: really have to like be like I'm a bad scientologist

368
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Speaker 3: for allowing us to just make stuff up. But also

369
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Speaker 3: you're like, I'm in this super big position, David, and

370
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Speaker 3: Scavage is going to beat the shit out of me

371
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Speaker 3: if I don't do this right. So like they're in

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Speaker 3: this weird like limbo where they either have to release

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Speaker 3: something or they can just string people along forever and

374
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Speaker 3: then blame it on the I thought, I.

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Speaker 1: Bet they'll find something hidden in the ground. Oh yeah, yes, exactly, exactly.

376
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Speaker 3: You know, I'm sorry it's funny that you say that,

377
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,800
Speaker 3: because very recently David Askavitch has been taken to correcting

378
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Speaker 3: Laron Hubbard's works by conveniently finding in x staff's homes

379
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 3: and in shelves and in storage storage compartments from people

380
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,360
Speaker 3: who you know, took home policies and stuff and old

381
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 3: secretaries where they'd be like, oh, well, this is actually

382
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Speaker 3: what he said, and they have like the video of

383
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Speaker 3: someone with these white gloves opening a drawer and an

384
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Speaker 3: attic checking out like wow.

385
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 4: So he does make it whatever he wants. Fuck wow.

386
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Speaker 1: I mean, is there is it correct that there's like

387
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 1: no scientologists left. It's just a few people that are

388
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 1: like funding this whole thing, like thirty thousand people.

389
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean, yeah, the last estimates were even

390
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,840
Speaker 3: from Scientology's numbers or somewhere around like twenty to twenty

391
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Speaker 3: five thousand, like give or take a couple hundred like,

392
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Speaker 3: and even that isn't an enormous number. It's still a

393
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Speaker 3: lot of people. And I think most of the inner

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Speaker 3: most of the most praised people and who keep it

395
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Speaker 3: going are the donors. The financial you know, uh supply

396
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,280
Speaker 3: lines directly to Scientology, where they can almost infinitely extend

397
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,640
Speaker 3: their campaign of you should be afraid to fuck with Scientology. Basically,

398
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Speaker 3: even though they haven't really suit anyone or won anything

399
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 3: in like almost two decades, they keep that going because

400
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,239
Speaker 3: they have like billions of dollars in their reserves right

401
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 3: for legal shit.

402
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403
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,280
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404
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,560
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408
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409
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410
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Speaker 2: So when you left, you said it was like kind

412
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Speaker 2: of a slow fade out.

413
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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Were you labeled a suppressive person at that point or

415
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 2: it was just slow enough that kind of no one

416
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Speaker 2: really didn't rock the boat.

417
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 3: Slow enough to where it didn't really rock the boat.

418
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Speaker 3: I kept things pretty close to my closely guarded I

419
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Speaker 3: didn't talk to people about it. I didn't explain to anyone.

420
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Speaker 3: Maybe some people I said, I'm leaving this group. It's

421
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 3: very fucked up. I don't really want to talk about it.

422
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,160
Speaker 3: I knew. I was like telling people like, don't get

423
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 3: your hopes up for me being like super social because

424
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 3: I am kind of working through some stuff. But then

425
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 3: there was a very certain point that I think we're

426
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 3: going to get to where it was obvious that I

427
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 3: was done, and I really didn't have any other place

428
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Speaker 3: to go with it because it was just me to myself.

429
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Speaker 3: I can either a jump into this public whatever the hell,

430
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Speaker 3: you know, talking out against scientology was going to be,

431
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 3: or I could sit quietly with all this information and

432
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,239
Speaker 3: just you know, age and die in obscurity. And that

433
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 3: was like that was like the pinnacle I think of

434
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Speaker 3: the pressure for me.

435
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Speaker 4: And when was that hold re you?

436
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 3: That was twenty twenty, so I was I think twenty four.

437
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Speaker 4: So this was the TikTok video.

438
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Speaker 3: This was the TikTok video. Yeah. So I got to

439
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 3: a point where I was basically like, I don't want

440
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 3: to be alive anymore. And this is sort of something

441
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 3: that I've carried with me from a very young age.

442
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 3: But like in scientology, when you do when you kill yourself,

443
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 3: you don't The only thing that happens is you come

444
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 3: back and it's worse for you and you invite this

445
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 3: like worse existence in the next life, and so you

446
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,199
Speaker 3: can't like there's in my state at that time, I

447
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 3: was just like I just had to carry it, you know,

448
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 3: and I thought about it all the time, but in

449
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 3: my head, I was like, well, but I can't do

450
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 3: anything about it. So, you know, it got to a

451
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 3: point where I was like, well, it doesn't matter now

452
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 3: because I'm not doing scientology. I hate everyone who's trying

453
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 3: to get me back into scientology. Nobody wants to help

454
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 3: me with anything that doesn't have to do with scientology

455
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 3: or as working for my dad at the time, and

456
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 3: I kind of fizzled out of doing that because it

457
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 3: was just torture working for that guy. I just kind

458
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 3: of had nothing left, and so I was like, you

459
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 3: know what, fuck it, I'll I'll share his little you

460
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 3: know secret. He should be fine with it. If he's

461
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 3: so fucking confident about like how much it's helped him,

462
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 3: it should be no issue at all, you know, but

463
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 3: people should know. People should have informed decisions about who

464
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 3: they're contributing to, because he at that point was giving

465
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 3: millions of dollars to Scientology.

466
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: So for context, he has like an MLM vitamins store

467
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: online where he's selling all these vitamins and he kind

468
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: of has a Christian tent to it where he's like, God,

469
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 1: bless y'all. And so all of these subscribers are like

470
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: kind of thinking he's a like Christian dude that's selling

471
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 1: them vitamins and they have no idea that Scientology is

472
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: any part of his story.

473
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, he was raised Christian, but I think

474
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 3: he would say because he doesn't believe in Christianity. I

475
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 3: think he gets that it's a positive thing for people

476
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 3: to say, oh God bless you, oh Jesus is on

477
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 3: your shoulder darling. So he just kind of goes along

478
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: with that to disarm the people. He's he's quasi MLM.

479
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 3: He hasn't. He's like an inch away, but he does.

480
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 3: He's like a health uru type who just basically googles

481
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: everything and relays that information.

482
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: To give us a little bit more background for how

483
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 2: we get to the TikTok your dad doctor in quotation.

484
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 4: Marks doctor Eric eric Berg, millions.

485
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 2: Of subscribers, millions of views on all of these like

486
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: health videos on YouTube. Can you explain exactly what this

487
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: business is that he's running. So you say he's just

488
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,719
Speaker 2: kind of regurgitating googled information.

489
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say ninety percent of what my father

490
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 3: would describe as work is watching YouTube videos and like

491
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 3: reading and shift, you know, googling things and rifling through

492
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 3: decades old textbooks, you know, outdated medical journals anything. Like

493
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 3: he's super clingy to confirmation bias like he's which is

494
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 3: also always very susceptible to salesmen, like people who are like, oh,

495
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 3: I can help fix your business. You know, I got this.

496
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 3: If it's good enough pitch, he'll hire you on the spot. Hey,

497
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 3: you forty thousand dollars a month, almost nothing, and I've

498
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 3: seen a few of those people come through the visits. Yeah,

499
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 3: I'll send it to you. I knew my dad wasn't

500
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 3: like the smartest guy because up until I was, like,

501
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 3: you know, sixteen, he needed my help to turn on

502
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 3: the DVD player. He didn't under he could. He just

503
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 3: for the life of him, could not understand how the

504
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 3: remote were.

505
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 4: Some dads just aren't great with technology, but his.

506
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: Dad believes that he like helped create the universe, so

507
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: he was.

508
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 3: He would always say dumb stuff and like act dumb,

509
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: but everyone was telling him that he was so smart.

510
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 3: So in my head, I'm like, I guess he's the

511
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 3: smartest dumb guy I've ever met in my life. So

512
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 3: he'll he'll google stuff, he'll confirm his biases. He'll come

513
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,199
Speaker 3: up with something that you know, vaguely works or is

514
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 3: like a fad at the time. He just makes it

515
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 3: part of his videos. I think one of the reasons

516
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 3: that people like him is that he doesn't use a

517
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 3: lot of medical terminology. He has a whiteboard and he

518
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 3: and he like tries to break things down from his

519
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 3: understanding visually, which like the lowest common denominator of person.

520
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 3: I guess finds appealing and they don't find it too complicated.

521
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 3: He only makes videos like five minutes long. A lot

522
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 3: of his information is debunked by actual practical science, but

523
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 3: that doesn't stop him from having a whole entire vitamin

524
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 3: line and a product line where he sells things. And

525
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 3: he has a YouTube channel where he where where he

526
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 3: very mysteriously got six million subscribers in two years, whereas

527
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 3: the previous like eight he had only slowly crawled up

528
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 3: to five million. Now that's I mean that happens.

529
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: It does happen once you gain on YouTube. It can

530
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: it can happen quickly.

531
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 4: But but it was.

532
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: Was it convenient enough that it happened right after I

533
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 3: outed him as being a scientologist?

534
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 4: Interesting, that's a question that I ask all the time.

535
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 3: Look at his I just I looked at his I

536
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 3: was just looking at his analytics quite often after, just

537
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 3: out of curiosity, and noticed a lot of bizarre stuff. So,

538
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 3: but I'm going to keep that to speculation because I'm

539
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 3: not a I don't know how accurate social platee is.

540
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 2: But he's a chiropractor, barely a chiropractor. He calls himself

541
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: doctor Eric Berg. And if you I'm reading his YouTube

542
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: page right now, it says discusses the truth about getting

543
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: healthy and losing weight. He's the director of Doctor Berg's

544
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: Nutritionals and the best selling Amazon author. It just reminds

545
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: me of my friend David Robert Grimes, who's sort of

546
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: an online skeptic. He posted a list of red flags

547
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: to look out for when looking at like YouTube medical gurus,

548
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: and one of them is they are trying to sell

549
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: you their own supplements. That is what your dad is doing.

550
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: To what extent, how bad is it? What is the

551
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 2: similarity to MLM so?

552
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I believe his products are very overpriced, and

553
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: I think that will be reflected because he's very possessive

554
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 3: of what he thinks is his opinion. He thinks anyone

555
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 3: who does something similar to him is like copying him

556
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 3: in some malicious way, when that's only just how capitalism works.

557
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 3: Like he comes out with an electrolyte powder that he

558
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: thinks is great, and then he has no patents on

559
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 3: these things, or he has or it wasn't even something

560
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: he could patent because it was owned by somebody else,

561
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 3: or it couldn't be patented or whatever, and he'll he'll

562
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 3: sue anyone who like seems to be infringing on his

563
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 3: on his aspects. So it's always very cult like from

564
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: the get going. When you work for him, it is

565
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: exactly I mean, he's a very important figure in scientology. Socially,

566
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 3: everyone listens to his vice. They'd say he's probably like

567
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 3: the l Ron Hubbard of health in scientology. So you

568
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: see his book everywhere. People reference him, even behind the scenes.

569
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: They use his products, they buy his products, so he

570
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 3: is enriched a lot by scientologists. He had a Sea

571
00:28:58,440 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 3: Org discount.

572
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: Oh wow, it's like defeeding each other financially.

573
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: And there are laws against that, but he they they

574
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 3: have some special way that they do it that makes it.

575
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 4: Not Oh isn't that convenient?

576
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: I have to ask me for you go on, what

577
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: are the similarities between chiropractic and scientology.

578
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 3: I actually did a video. I was interviewed by this guy.

579
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 3: He was doing a whole deep dive into the background

580
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: of chiropractic, and he reached out to talk about my

581
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: dad and he like, there's this weird overlap where I

582
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 3: guess chiropractic started. This guy received like a message from

583
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: God where he they said that like life force, energy

584
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 3: is like stuck within the whoa pinched points of like

585
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 3: bones and your spine and all these things, so like

586
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: you release this life force energy and it heals your

587
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 3: whole body.

588
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: This kind of acupuncture, I kind of believe it well.

589
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 4: And you know my.

590
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: Position on the devils in the details, Okay, yeah, yeah, no,

591
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: I'm kiro.

592
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 4: I feel like that general people.

593
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, for sure, but there are some there

594
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: are more magic fun stuff going on in your dad's

595
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: brain that aligned with.

596
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: Him, Yeah, initially, which is sort of what I think

597
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 3: sprung him right into scientology. Apparently he has. He talked

598
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 3: about how he entered scientology and it had to do

599
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 3: with like everyone was telling him it was a scam

600
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 3: and everyone was telling him that it took their money

601
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 3: and that it ruined their marriage. And he was like, hmm,

602
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 3: people telling me to stay away from something, I should

603
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 3: go directly head first and look into that. And you know,

604
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 3: that kind of shows his mindset, how he's how his

605
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: mind is like framed. But you know, so there's that

606
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: big overlap. And then he also does sort of on

607
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 3: the side, doesn't really advertise this as much, but he

608
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 3: does health coach training. So there's a course you can

609
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 3: buy or over from last time I checked, it was

610
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 3: over one thousand dollars. And it basically is like a

611
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 3: collection of YouTube videos that are unlisted that you can

612
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: get access to where he just teaches you, like a

613
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 3: general set.

614
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 4: Of uh you put a qutes on teaching.

615
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 3: I did put it, yeah, because it's mainly just like

616
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 3: it is so difficult because so many people, so many

617
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 3: like actual credible medical doctors and people who actually went

618
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 3: to school for this stuff, have debunked a lot of

619
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: his a lot of my dad's work, And I think

620
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 3: his inability to kind of reconcile with being wrong or

621
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: or like to be wrong at all, he's just very

622
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: hard to argue with because he kind of just shuts

623
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 3: down a little bit. You know, there's like a I

624
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 3: can't be wrong, I'm not going to listen to you.

625
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 3: You're an idiot, you're dumb, You're like just very childish

626
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 3: kind of shuts off. So he thinks everything he touches

627
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 3: turns to goal a lot of his practices. I mean,

628
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 3: I would be hard pressed to find a person who

629
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 3: isn't totally a fan of his to get him out

630
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 3: in the public to talk about anything somebody recently did.

631
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: And he just asked him for an open invitation to

632
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 3: discuss some things, and I think he knew scientology was involved. Sorry,

633
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 3: the conversation would bring up the subject of scientology. So

634
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,479
Speaker 3: he like blocked this guy and then had his people

635
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 3: like try to take down videos on his channel. So

636
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 3: he's just not interested at all.

637
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: So he's selling access to these unlisted videos to teach

638
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: people the courses.

639
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so what you can do once you've completed

640
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:59,239
Speaker 3: the course as it were, and you've been approved to

641
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: receive a certific you get not only this like weird

642
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 3: status of doctor Berg health coach, not only, but then

643
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 3: you get a discount on his supplements and you get

644
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 3: the authority to sell his supplements and profit based on

645
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 3: his Like you have to pay, you have to buy

646
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: his his supplements at a marked down rate, and then

647
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 3: you can sell them for what roughly they're worth.

648
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 4: Oh, you have to buy them first. So it really

649
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 4: is like an MLM.

650
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: There's not like you have a link that people use

651
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 2: to buy it independently.

652
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: They have to buy it from you.

653
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, basically I used to sell them. I used to

654
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 3: I used to talk to I used to like talk

655
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: to people on the phone when I worked for him.

656
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 3: I would One I would train the the coaches, and

657
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: two I would apply access to the videos and I

658
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: would help them clarify if they needed help on anything,

659
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: or if they needed help on the course or help

660
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 3: selling things. It's not very well advertised. I'll just say that.

661
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: So whereas other MLM is like want you to want

662
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: you to get in the funnel, and they're very aggressive

663
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 3: about it, and they're very you know, he understood. He

664
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 3: understands that it is multi level marketing. It is it

665
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 3: would be multi level marketing to market this to people,

666
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 3: whereas now it's and he doesn't want to look obviously

667
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 3: like a scammer, so I think he he keeps that

668
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: more as like, oh, well you can if you want,

669
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 3: you can join my down line.

670
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 4: If it's your dad's voice, that's what you want. Doctor

671
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 4: Eric Burke.

672
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 3: Now his this is a lot of his is more

673
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 3: like bored and uh weird, intermittent coughing through every every

674
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: sentence he says, Can I ask you a question?

675
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: This is your dad we're talking about. How does it

676
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 2: feel roasting your dad publicly like this?

677
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 3: Well, if I had any respect for my dad, I

678
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 3: understand that a lot of people don't don't get it

679
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 3: like that. A lot of people just haven't had that

680
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 3: kind of relationship with their parents, and many people just

681
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 3: don't have that experience, so they're not gonna you know,

682
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 3: life is perspective. Your understanding of life is totally based

683
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 3: on like the things you've seen and learned. So I allow,

684
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 3: you know, the conversation of you know, you shouldn't talk

685
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: to your dad that way, It's like, yeah, I mean,

686
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 3: obviously you're going to say that because you weren't raised

687
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 3: by him, and people think they know him, you know,

688
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 3: because they watch him on YouTube, which I think is funny,

689
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 3: but it's it's a very nuanced situation. It feels I mean,

690
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 3: what does it feel like to talk about someone who

691
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: you know isn't listening? You know, It's like it is

692
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 3: what it is. It's like, I know, I personally believe

693
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: what he's doing is wrong. I believe what he's done

694
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 3: in the past and the way he behaves is horrendous.

695
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 3: He treated me and my siblings like shit, gaslighting, just

696
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 3: super like, socially inept and pretty toxic masculinity, a lot

697
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 3: of that. For all these reasons and more, I feel

698
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: like he he's unable to understand his mind when he

699
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 3: does actions that are like actually wrong, He's is like

700
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 3: reality is so skewed. I feel like, and I'm sure

701
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 3: he's so deep in his bubble right now, like he's

702
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 3: he doesn't interact with anyone in the community. The people

703
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 3: in between like him and the community that he claims

704
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: to bolster are like some of them are scientologists that

705
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 3: I know personally or new, I should say, so they

706
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 3: know what they're looking for, and they moderate. He has

707
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: a whole team of moderators who are likewise either scientologists

708
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: or their train they know to like look out for

709
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 3: anything having to do with scientology. They block they you know,

710
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 3: I have a video I posted on my on my

711
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 3: channel where I talk about I very briefly show like

712
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 3: this recording from ah when I worked for him, and

713
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 3: it's basically just him calling all the people who write

714
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 3: who leave like critical reviews or like questioning reviews, like

715
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 3: oh yeah, this guy's in. The guy's a suppressive you know,

716
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 3: you can block him and this she's just says that

717
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 3: he all he wants to do is sell his products,

718
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 3: which is all he wants to do because that's his

719
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 3: income source and that shouldn't be you'd think that I

720
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 3: want to make money, so I'm going to sell a

721
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 3: product to make money. Like he's not doing it out

722
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 3: of the kindness of his own heart. He is like

723
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 3: grossly profiting off of this. So like you think that

724
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 3: would just be like maybe something allowable to him, But

725
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 3: like anything that makes him look more honest is like

726
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 3: that because he does not have Yeah, he doesn't have

727
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: great opinions on things, and I think he knows that.

728
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 3: So he just kind of plays the role of helpful

729
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 3: doctor guy doctor in quotes right.

730
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: Like anything that exposes is true sort of world, including

731
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 2: like being a scientologist.

732
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like on these videos like that's kind of

733
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,479
Speaker 1: not like he's not trying to spread the good word

734
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: of scientology.

735
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 4: He's trying to sell vitamins.

736
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: Which which is interesting because I would have expected opposite,

737
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: just given what we know about Tom Cruise and the

738
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: more prominent scientologists. I would have imagined it'd be like

739
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: he'd be a spokesperson.

740
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 3: You would think that happened, that would happen more. But

741
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: you have to be really naive or direct I am,

742
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: but well not even you. You'd have to be naive

743
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 3: as a scientologist to think that you can promote it

744
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 3: without being like directly trained by sea ORG members. A

745
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 3: lot of people are naive about scientology and that's something

746
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 3: I just had to come to terms with because it's

747
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 3: as complicated as fuck. It's like impossible to it's a

748
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 3: different boil down differently. Yeah, there's like there are like

749
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 3: their own terms, their their own like procedures. You have

750
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 3: to like literally change the definitions of many words just

751
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 3: to fit your brain into this, into this perceptible understanding

752
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 3: of it. But if you're if.

753
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: You're not famous, you're not gonna promote it.

754
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: If you're well now, I mean Tom Cruise kind of

755
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 3: proved that it's not a good look to publicly go

756
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 3: out of your way to promote scientology because you and

757
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 3: what you invite in, especially in the age of the Internet,

758
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 3: which has h you know, overwhelmed scientology with bad publicity,

759
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 3: is you put you stick your neck out for this thing,

760
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 3: this group that you might personally think is doing good,

761
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 3: and then you just get a laundry list of all

762
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: of these like confirmed things that they've done, like hey,

763
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 3: what about that time when they infiltrated the government, or

764
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 3: like what about that time that they like tortured people

765
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: you know, or what about that time that David Misscavage,

766
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: you know, uh, beat the shit out of like all

767
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: of the people underneath him. You know, people have gone

768
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 3: on to testify against Scientology to such a degree that

769
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 3: like they can't even do trial courts anymore. They just

770
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 3: pay people off. They just do settlements because they they

771
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 3: literally cannot they can't defend it. My dad actually very

772
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 3: recently was sued for forcing Scientology on one of his

773
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 3: employees and this stories about that are insane, and I

774
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 3: made a whole video about that also. But he was

775
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 3: pushing this very He's pushing this woman into participating more

776
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 3: in like these courses and into auditing, and he brought

777
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 3: an E. Meeter into work to like ask her a

778
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 3: bunch of personal questions, and there's a whole there's a

779
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: whole lawsuit. I can send you the favorites. Crazy And

780
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 3: basically it went on for like two years because they

781
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 3: brought on this quote unquote expert who's essentially a cult

782
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 3: apologist famous for protecting Scientology, and it was it was

783
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 3: going on for a while, and it wasn't until I

784
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 3: stepped in after I had left Scientology. So like they

785
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 3: had been doing this thing for a while, and then

786
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: like somewhere in between I left. A little while later,

787
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: I was asked if there was anything I could say

788
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: regarding this case by his ex employers lawyer, and I

789
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 3: just said, very simply, I had because I had reports

790
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 3: that detailed this that he does, in fact recruit like

791
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 3: recruit scientologists, he converts scientologists from his employee base. He's

792
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 3: done that historically, he's tried to do that. He's gone

793
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 3: out of his way to do that, he's personally told me.

794
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 3: But that doesn't really hold up in court. So I

795
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 3: sent him. I sent this guy whatever I had, and

796
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 3: I just also said like, hey, by the way, I

797
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 3: was hired because of my understanding of scientology to train

798
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 3: people in the same sort of methods that I was

799
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 3: trained in scientology, Like he wanted that just duplicated for

800
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 3: his business. Within a week, I think a week and

801
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,479
Speaker 3: a half, he had settled outright and the whole case

802
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 3: was sealed like totally. So yeah, that only knows, you know.

803
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 2: One of the things I was going to ask you

804
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: was like, what would you say to someone who's like, so,

805
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: he practices a bad religion and he has a YouTube

806
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 2: page that's like a little sketchy. But who doesn't what's

807
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: the harm? But who does coercing? I don't know in

808
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: the modern age. Yeah, but coercing your employees to join

809
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 2: your religion that also costs.

810
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 4: Money, costs a lot of money, a lot is a

811
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 4: pretty harmful practice.

812
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 2: Objectively, I would say, what is the biggest thing that

813
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: you would hope to get out of speaking out about him?

814
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 3: He is in a gray area because I don't like

815
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 3: to look down on people who are in a position

816
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 3: of subjugation or like simply I don't like bullying cult

817
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 3: victims because the average person in scientology does not understand

818
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 3: what is happening to them on like a rational level.

819
00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 3: They've been like Scientology's main export is manipulation. It is

820
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 3: like coercively manipulating a person to accomplish tasks on the

821
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 3: behalf of this group, you know, taking orders very well.

822
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: You know, you're very rigorously trained to tolerate this kind

823
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 3: of thing. So the gray area there is people who

824
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 3: have a certain level of wealth or access or monetary

825
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 3: benefit to the cult itself, So people who fund it,

826
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 3: people who give money to it, and who attend these

827
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 3: I mean, I've been to these these fundraisers for these

828
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 3: wealthy donors, and let me tell you they are. They

829
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 3: pull out all the stops, you know, this fancy dinners,

830
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 3: and they'll bring out the celebrities and they'll have these

831
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 3: like really cliche motivational speeches. And you know when you're

832
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 3: sitting in a when you're sitting in a room with

833
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 3: like John Travolta, Grant Cardone and you know, Nancy Cartwright

834
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 3: at these other tables and they're all donating, and then

835
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 3: they they point to you and you're like, whoa. You

836
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: know you can either you can't really freeze up there.

837
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 3: You have to kind of go along with it. But

838
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: that's how that was. How was you know, it's intended.

839
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 3: It's like literally designed to be the pressure is designed

840
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 3: to be there. However, my dad knows very well what

841
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 3: goes on in scientology, and he knows like, oh, people

842
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 3: call it human trafficking. But but they're just doing what

843
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 3: you know, they're what they want, you know. I yeah, sure,

844
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 3: they flew a family from Czechoslovakia to Atlanta just to

845
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 3: work at a at an org and for almost no pay,

846
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 3: very sketchy visas, and we'll still treat them like posentially

847
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 3: free labor because they signed the contract. Well, that's just

848
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 3: something they did on their own volition. They signed the contract,

849
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. It's like there's that cognitive

850
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 3: dissonance about that, and I think, I mean, I make

851
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 3: the exception for these people because they are when you

852
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 3: consider it as a whole funding human trafficking. I mean,

853
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 3: how he trafficked me a couple of times. And I

854
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: think I want him to prove it. I want him

855
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 3: to put his shit on the line. I want him

856
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 3: to to come out of his little cave and I

857
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 3: want him to be a big boy and prove that

858
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 3: he is, in fact not funding human trafficking, Like, put

859
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 3: his ass on the line if he if he's willing

860
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 3: to donate millions of dollars to this thing, this super

861
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 3: secret important thing, you'd think it would work for once

862
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 3: in his life. But I just find it pathetic, And

863
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 3: I think it would work for scientology, like when.

864
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: You're sorry, yeah, like what does scientology working look like?

865
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, And that's such a crazy concept. Ellern

866
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 3: Hubbard says that scientology is the most workable technology in

867
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 3: the history of all mankind. It's a culmination of twenty

868
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: of twenty thousand years of human evolution and understanding and

869
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 3: thought and principle, and it has yet to work.

870
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 4: What does that mean.

871
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: We're like a fully enlightened being, like.

872
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 3: Going by, right, Yeah, well so here's here's here's the

873
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 3: way I can explain it. Scientology's promotion has mostly to

874
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 3: do with uh, improving conditions, which is like making people

875
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 3: learn better, uh, you know, fixing people's mental health. It

876
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 3: is very expressly stated in many Scientology publications, although they

877
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 3: do they legally deny it, but you can read it

878
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 3: on the page that they cure diseases, that they can

879
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: cure cancer by auditing, that they make all these sort

880
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 3: of inflated claims. There's also you know, the PTS stuff

881
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 3: that I was talking about, like the suppressive person. There's

882
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 3: a whole technology around around that, and it's guaranteed to

883
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: shatter suppression. And it's like, how do you handle these

884
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 3: suppressive people? And I'm going to say, I've never seen

885
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 3: someone shatter suppression once. Like the best you get is like, well,

886
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 3: I've kind of personally reconciled like why someone would like

887
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 3: be mean, right, But I'm going to block them instead

888
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 3: because it's easier, Like I won't hear about it if

889
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 3: I block and that's how you handle suppression, is you

890
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 3: just you just block them on everything and you turn

891
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 3: it off, turn it off.

892
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: So you're basically like, yo, dad, if you're going to

893
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 2: donate all of this money to this organization, like prove

894
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 2: that they're not one not harming people into actually doing

895
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: anything that they say they're going to do.

896
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that that yeah, pretty pretty basically Yeah.

897
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 3: And also like maybe change your outlook. Maybe you're a

898
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 3: toxic asshole who you know has been hurting people more

899
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 3: than you've been helping people. I mean, that's just I

900
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 3: don't expect anything out of that. I mean I understand

901
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 3: what I'm looking for. You can't actually change what people

902
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 3: believe by force, and I don't think that's helpful. I think,

903
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 3: if anything, for me, it's more about, you know, the

904
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 3: bare minimum level of integrity. And I also it's a

905
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 3: complicated feeling to like know that there are other people

906
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 3: who are currently going through what I went through in

907
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 3: scientology who are just as cut off. Maybe they have

908
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 3: like a limited access to the Internet and they can

909
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 3: like you know, watch you know, gaming videos on whatever.

910
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 3: But like when I saw those those things, like those

911
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 3: little like throughout my life, when I saw like a

912
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 3: video or I saw like a about scientology, or like

913
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 3: an l Ron Hubbard interview that I was I hadn't

914
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 3: seen prior, and it said a lot of really weird things.

915
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 3: It kind of just stuck with me, and I just

916
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 3: hope that if I, if I can describe these things

917
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 3: to someone who wasn't who was in a similar position

918
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 3: that I was, it can kind of catch them up

919
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 3: to the level of critical thinking that I wish I

920
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,439
Speaker 3: had at that time.

921
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you brought up something that is always interesting,

922
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 2: I think to us, which is that like someone who

923
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: is in a cult is being lied to, they're being manipulated,

924
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,919
Speaker 2: they're most likely being coerced in some way. And then

925
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: also at the same time, while they are victims, people

926
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 2: who are generally it's people who are higher up can

927
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: be perpetrating the same thing to others. And you can

928
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 2: be both a victim and a perpetrator at the same time.

929
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 2: And that's a really I mean, you use the term

930
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: gray area. I think that that is exactly what that is,

931
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 2: because you want to honor when someone's victim, but also

932
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: people should be responsible when they're victimizing others at the

933
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: same time, and not to say, your dad is literally

934
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: physically taking people and bringing that you know, yeah.

935
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 3: And it is so confusing. And I was also like,

936
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not a judge. I'm not in charge

937
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 3: of the courts. I don't know what he deserves right,

938
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 3: but I know that what he's doing is wrong. I

939
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 3: all I have to do is express that. And I

940
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 3: mean the amount of uh, what appears to be like

941
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 3: tremendous fear that from as a reaction to me just

942
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 3: saying something as simple as, yeah, my dad's this guy

943
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 3: and he donates millions of dollars to Scientology like it was?

944
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 3: It was. It was honestly very what's the word validate?

945
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 3: Because I was like, oh, the rest of the modern

946
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 3: world agrees that Scientology as a cult.

947
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 4: Can you walk.

948
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 2: Us through how you got to the point where you

949
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 2: uploaded that TikTok video.

950
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 3: I can say that when I uploaded that that initial

951
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 3: TikTok that I made, and over the next like month

952
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 3: or so, it got up to like seven and a

953
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 3: half million views or something, I was like, really, I was,

954
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 3: I was. It was this very bizarre feeling. I'd never

955
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 3: gotten that much attention in my life. I kind of

956
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 3: I had conversations. I was on like a TikTok live

957
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 3: at one point, and then my dad like came to

958
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 3: my house and started hanging on my door for like

959
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 3: forty minutes and up to the point where my neighbors

960
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 3: had to call the police. I didn't even hear him

961
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 3: because I was upstairs and I was like, I was

962
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 3: banging on my door. And then I checked my phone

963
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 3: and I got a text from my dad be like

964
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: I'm here, come outside.

965
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 4: What was he going to do, like want to touch

966
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 4: you or something?

967
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I have all I know. He was going

968
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 3: to do what I knew at that point, And I

969
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 3: was sitting there and he's on the other side of

970
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 3: this door, and I'm like, he's going to do whatever

971
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 3: he could. Because the text that proceed like that was

972
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 3: before that was please take it down, let's talk, let's

973
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 3: take it on the video, let's just have it, let's

974
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 3: just talk about it. All I knew is that he

975
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 3: was going to do whatever he could, whether you know,

976
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 3: whatever kind of conversation or manipulation or tactic he was

977
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 3: going to use to shut me up. Basically. I mean,

978
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 3: that's what happens. You spiral, and then you have these

979
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 3: people just like come towards you and kind of like

980
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 3: love bomb you, or they like say something they put you.

981
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 3: Let's put you in a new situation.

982
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 4: They put you out of.

983
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: Your misery, of your like scary news or clumstance.

984
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 4: They're like, no, no, no, it's okay, it's okay. Have you

985
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 4: seen him since this?

986
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: I mean, like, what would happen if you passed him

987
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: in the airport tomorrow.

988
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,479
Speaker 3: He'd probably ignore me, He'd probably, I mean, he would

989
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 3: probably make efforts to not be visible, but he would

990
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 3: he would do the very childish like I don't see you,

991
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 3: I'm not listening. Wow, that's what I think would happen.

992
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 4: I mean, when he came to your door. That was

993
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 4: not after the first one, or was it was after

994
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 4: the first one.

995
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 3: He was not close by when I posted the first TikTok,

996
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 3: so it took him like I posted a second video,

997
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,720
Speaker 3: a second TikTok, I think, and then I went live

998
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: because it was like blowing up, and I was like,

999
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 3: I didn't I didn't really know what to do. I

1000
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 3: wasn't used to TikTok live, so I was just talking

1001
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 3: about it. I was just answering questions. People had a

1002
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 3: lot of questions and it even then it was like

1003
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 3: really hard to do. But I think it was either

1004
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 3: the day after, you know that the day after he

1005
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 3: came over, he had to drive like four hours oh

1006
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 3: to my house and then he was like banging on

1007
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 3: my door and the police told him to leave, And yeah,

1008
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 3: I just didn't want to risk opening that door. And

1009
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 3: I knew that, like I should, at least for myself,

1010
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 3: have a grace period where I don't talk to my

1011
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 3: family because I'm very I'm I felt very vulnerable. I was,

1012
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 3: I was very confused. I didn't know what was happening,

1013
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 3: and I knew that, like any one of them were

1014
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 3: going to try to make me feel like shit or

1015
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 3: make me or like kind of you know, do that

1016
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 3: kind of coddling change of environment to like fix me

1017
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 3: or whatever they thought they were going to do. And

1018
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,439
Speaker 3: it wasn't until I was ready to talk that they

1019
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 3: had decided that I was going to be declared to

1020
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 3: suppress the person. Then they couldn't physically talk to me

1021
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 3: at all. They're not permitted by their masters.

1022
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 2: I think one of the things about that first video

1023
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 2: that also drew so many people to it was that

1024
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,280
Speaker 2: you said it was going to be your last video.

1025
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was in this condition where I was working

1026
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 3: for my dad was horrible. It was just really draining

1027
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 3: and unproductive, and you know, I wasn't really getting anywhere,

1028
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 3: and I was depressed. I mean I was like severely

1029
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 3: depressed to a point where I saw, now, Okay, now

1030
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 3: I know scientology can't help me, and now I know

1031
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 3: that I have no one to rely on. And now

1032
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 3: I know that even my you know, like the woman

1033
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 3: I married, I can't trust. So I'm really kind of

1034
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 3: I felt cornered, and I felt like, you know, it

1035
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 3: felt like how I felt. I I I had recently

1036
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 3: come to some epiphanies about like the way my parents

1037
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 3: were behaving with me, and I realized, like they never

1038
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 3: really showed me. I'd never really felt like loved by

1039
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 3: my parents more than when they were like reciprocating based

1040
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 3: on like what I did specifically for scientology. And also

1041
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 3: like I didn't really have a lot I had, Like

1042
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 3: I had the necessities, I guess, but like I didn't

1043
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 3: really have a lot growing up, and I was always

1044
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 3: made to know that like, well, you could just be

1045
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 3: starving on the streets, but you should be happy that

1046
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 3: I should be happy that my mom is following the

1047
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 3: law and raising the child she decided to have. I

1048
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 3: don't know how that was. You know, in hindsight, it's

1049
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,919
Speaker 3: a very bizarre concept to have your mom be like, well,

1050
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 3: I could have just neglected you until you were dead, right.

1051
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, that's that's your problem.

1052
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 4: And it's a talking point. I feel like some parents

1053
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 4: adopt and it's like, yeah, yeah, you got like an.

1054
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 2: Impressive thing that you didn't starve from child.

1055
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 3: You're lucky I have food to give you. You're lucky

1056
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 3: you have food.

1057
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 2: So at this point you'd like kind of left side

1058
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 2: held you slowly and not necessarily publicly, right, and you

1059
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: were like, I have nothing, I have no one.

1060
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 4: Why live basically.

1061
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 3: Yeah and yeah, And I kind of got to that

1062
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,879
Speaker 3: point and I was like I'm going to I kind

1063
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 3: of decided that I wanted to do it, and I

1064
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 3: didn't really know how. I didn't know when, but I

1065
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 3: knew essentially that I wanted to just I wanted to

1066
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 3: get I didn't want to do it anymore, you know. There,

1067
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 3: I can't be it being life killing myself. I can't

1068
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 3: say whether definitively I had I had ever had like

1069
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,439
Speaker 3: a good reason to be alive. But that's a more

1070
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 3: like I guess personal philosophy, but like wanting to go.

1071
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 3: I was. I was about there. So I was like,

1072
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 3: you know, fuck this, fuck it all. Fuck that asshole

1073
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 3: who thinks that he like owns me. Let me very

1074
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 3: just explicitly describe who he is and where he gives

1075
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 3: his money and gives some sort of like just giving

1076
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 3: the consumer the option to decide who to support with

1077
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 3: their money. And yeah, and I laid I was. I.

1078
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 3: I was like very close for a very long time.

1079
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 3: I was like laying in bed just kind of I

1080
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 3: don't have to go into details about it, but like

1081
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 3: I couldn't do it. I couldn't end it. And I

1082
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 3: felt like a coward. I felt like I was just

1083
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 3: I have my own I've evolved since then, I have

1084
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 3: different mindsets about the situation, but at the time I was,

1085
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 3: I just was. I felt like the biggest like coward

1086
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 3: basically I had I you know, I ran away from

1087
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 3: my family, I ran away from all these other things,

1088
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 3: and I can't even I can't even die easily.

1089
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 2: So I'm glad you were a coward that day. I mean,

1090
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 2: I think it's the right kind of cowardice, to be honest, I.

1091
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 3: Think many would agree, yeah, I. And so from there

1092
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 3: I kind of just was like, all right, a lot

1093
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 3: of now that I'm here, I have all these people

1094
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 3: were asking me for context. So I made like an

1095
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 3: hour long video describing sort of what I was going through,

1096
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 3: and looking back on that video, I was still very

1097
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 3: fragile and uneducated and even very like quicker than I

1098
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 3: probably should have. I I did a podcast about it,

1099
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 3: and it was the podcast with Mike Render and Lea Rumini,

1100
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 3: who are very notable in the scientology community for being

1101
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 3: like the worst people in the world from a scientologist perspective,

1102
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 3: because you know, they're both outspoken ex members and they're

1103
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 3: incredibly nice to me. Mike is a really nice guy.

1104
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 3: I think that sort of cemented my family's position, because

1105
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 3: not only were we like a prominent family in the cult,

1106
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 3: but like I just like met the Antichrist or whatever.

1107
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 3: And you know, I mean, I think you can do

1108
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 3: a lot worse things than just say someone else did

1109
00:58:54,800 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 3: you wrong personally, But these are irreconcilable facts, right, irreconcilable

1110
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 3: like situations. And I think when I when my family

1111
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 3: knew that, that's what I had done. I mean, I'm

1112
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 3: somebody told them for sure. They I'm sure had to

1113
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 3: go off to some scientology specialist basically to get patched

1114
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 3: up spiritually after my Yeah, I.

1115
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 2: Just want to just go back a couple of minutes

1116
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 2: here because I want to reframe your decision to stay

1117
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 2: alive is actually very brave, because you were in a

1118
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 2: situation where, you know, we're just having conversation about this,

1119
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 2: leaving your entire life, your entire community, everything you've ever known,

1120
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: and not having a new one ready to go, it

1121
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 2: can feel like death and be incredibly like. It's incredibly isolating.

1122
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 2: It's a people have lost their identity. They feel like

1123
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 2: no one will ever you know, they'll never have love,

1124
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 2: and that is a terrifying situation to be in and

1125
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 2: a terrifying situation to stay alive for. So I'm reframing

1126
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 2: your cowardice because I actually think it was far far

1127
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 2: braver just to stay alive and face that.

1128
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 3: The In hindsight, I understand why I thought I was cowardice. Yeah,

1129
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 3: but I was also very emotional at the time. I

1130
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 3: had no therapy my whole life, and I had no

1131
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 3: real introspection on you know, when I was in the

1132
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 3: cult because I had already been in the cult my

1133
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 3: whole life, like I hadn't left. Really it's hard. It's

1134
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 3: like there's leaving and then there's like handling yourself after

1135
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 3: you've left.

1136
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 4: You just jumped in the deep end.

1137
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't know what I'm like, right, I have

1138
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: splits into a like die.

1139
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 3: I have this incredible ability to not know when to

1140
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 3: shut the fuck up, always like to always know I

1141
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 3: always have something to say that it's just going to

1142
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 3: piss off somebody, Like I don't try. I try to

1143
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 3: reel it back, you know, and it's not all about me.

1144
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 3: Uh and and I'm fine with that. I just I ramble.

1145
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 3: So sometimes when I'm rambling to people, uh, they'll be like, oh, man,

1146
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 3: you seem you seem like you want to say some stuff.

1147
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,439
Speaker 3: If you want, I can put you. I can put

1148
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 3: you in contact with somebody who can talk to uh,

1149
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 3: or we can do it on a podcasting to talk

1150
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 3: about it. Like it feels like you know what you

1151
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 3: want to say, and then you get on a podcast

1152
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 3: and you're like, we to relate.

1153
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this was my question and I don't

1154
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: want to sounds to me and my brain like very stereotypically.

1155
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want it to sound stupid,

1156
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 1: but did you feel that your life was in danger

1157
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: from scientologists at all?

1158
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,919
Speaker 3: You The paranoia is real. The paranoia, like especially when

1159
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 3: you're a someone who spent their life like seeing scientologists

1160
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 3: come and go. You know what the consequences are pretty explicitly,

1161
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 3: and I think, I mean paranoia is there's a certain

1162
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 3: level of paranoia for for people like me that's like rational, right,

1163
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 3: But you really gotta you really gotta watch out because

1164
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 3: like I was, you can't feed it, you can't give

1165
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 3: into it. You just have to be like reasonably suspicious.

1166
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 3: But like everyone everyone, like you know, I didn't leave

1167
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 3: my house for a while. Every time I did leave

1168
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 3: the house, I had to make sure cars weren't following me.

1169
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 3: I mean, it bucks with your head to just know that,

1170
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 3: like especially even just the layering of like like I

1171
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 3: knew as a scientologist that like we were like management

1172
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 3: had made websites about layer a mini to like trash

1173
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 3: her life, and that they were like getting these candid

1174
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 3: photos of Mike Rinder from his fucking mailbox, and like

1175
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 3: they were searching through people's trash and uh, which you know,

1176
01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 3: you're thinking, oh, they're gonna find out what their crimes

1177
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 3: are when you leave, and you're kind of over all

1178
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 3: that and it's you You're like, well, I don't have

1179
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 3: like why I don't know crimes. I'm you know, like

1180
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 3: I just don't want to, you know, take it to

1181
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 3: my grave and I just.

1182
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 4: Don't want people looking at my trash.

1183
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah, So there's like a

1184
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 3: reasonable level. It does hit you really hard first. It's

1185
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 3: like you feel like you're in this big conspiracy rush.

1186
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 3: So I and a part of my content, especially on YouTube,

1187
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 3: is like when I'm talking to people I'm live streaming

1188
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 3: and I try to talk to people who might be

1189
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 3: on the fence about leaving or who might think about it,

1190
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 3: it's like they have so they have bigger fish to

1191
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 3: fry than you. If you want to leave, and not

1192
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 3: everyone who leaves has to come out and say this,

1193
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 3: you know, has to start a YouTube channel or do

1194
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 3: all this crazy activism right away or at all. I mean,

1195
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 3: if you want to be safe, that's your prerogative. I

1196
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 3: can't tell you what to do. But you know, for

1197
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 3: as many people who leave just to be safe, they

1198
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 3: are going to be people who leave to speak out

1199
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 3: about it, and that's all that really, you know, but yeah,

1200
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 3: you're like the after effects. You really got to watch out.

1201
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 3: And even with the attention, like I felt for a

1202
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 3: majority of my life that I had sort of been ignored,

1203
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 3: I tried. I tried to put myself out there a lot.

1204
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 3: I was I was making contraction on Vine for a while.

1205
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:21,439
Speaker 3: It's a little bit I love I loved Vine.

1206
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 4: I thought you were hilarious.

1207
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 3: I think I think a lot of a handful of

1208
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 3: them were actually really funny. But there's also like mostly

1209
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 3: Cranch a different time. Twenty sixteen was a different time,

1210
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 3: and uh, anyway, like so I just felt like mostly

1211
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 3: kind of like I'm never actually going to be this

1212
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 3: this guy who makes all these good screenplays or movies

1213
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 3: or whatever or books or whatever I wanted to do.

1214
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna be guy in obscurity. So like when

1215
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 3: I came out of the TikTok and I got all

1216
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 3: this attention, there was a point, I think like a

1217
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 3: couple of weeks in to maybe a month in where

1218
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 3: I was like, this is weird, this feels this feels

1219
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 3: weird to have all these people at and the questions

1220
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 3: I was asked, and it all sort of like amassed.

1221
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 3: At a certain point, I was like, I actually don't

1222
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 3: like this. I don't like this kind of influencer aspect

1223
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 3: to it. I like, uh, some some pieces are are

1224
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 3: are kind of entertaining, and some pieces are kind of fun,

1225
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 3: and but for the most part, the attention just like

1226
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 3: fucked me up kind of. So I stepped back for

1227
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:34,919
Speaker 3: a while. I started having panic attacks. I started, uh,

1228
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 3: you know, as then I like doubled down into therapy

1229
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 3: and I kind of took step back and I and

1230
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 3: I kind of gave myself a lot of room to

1231
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 3: heal mentally and to figure my shit out. And so

1232
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:49,919
Speaker 3: now I'm kind of, you know, trying to come back

1233
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 3: and dabble in just educational stuff and you know, whatever

1234
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 3: whatever I want. Basically, Yeah, I have.

1235
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 4: Two questions in response to that.

1236
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 2: One is, you know, in the media immediate aftermath of

1237
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 2: you posting this video that made a lot of people

1238
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 2: worried about you. I think, and I'm assuming maybe also

1239
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 2: your dad, Devil's advocate, maybe that was part of why

1240
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:11,919
Speaker 2: he showed up at your door.

1241
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: Hmm, I am I mean interesting, I haven't even thought

1242
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 1: of it that way. I don't know, but but you know,

1243
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: they're like a lot of people were like, oh no,

1244
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 1: like is this is this guy?

1245
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:25,959
Speaker 4: Okay? And so I'm.

1246
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 2: Wondering, like, did you feel before before the panic attack

1247
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 2: set in all and the attention became overwhelming? Did you

1248
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 2: feel relieved that there were people who were hearing you?

1249
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 2: Did you feel connected?

1250
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 4: Did it?

1251
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 2: Did it kind of help with the transition from from

1252
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 2: this out of this lifestyle.

1253
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 3: In a sense, the acknowledgement that I had, like a

1254
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 3: I had people who were willing to listen, you know,

1255
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 3: who are going to come back. I now understand that

1256
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 3: I was in this like wave, Like I kind of

1257
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 3: had this like moment where like if I had expanded

1258
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 3: upon that, I could have done a lot more, but

1259
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:05,919
Speaker 3: I sort of prioritize other things like mental health. Yeah,

1260
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 3: I mean it's not really who I am, you know,

1261
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 3: I'm not like sure, I'd like to make things that

1262
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 3: people enjoy, but I don't want to be the center

1263
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 3: of all of this, you know, attention, especially when like

1264
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 3: later on I kind of realized, Okay, well I'm telling

1265
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 3: my story a lot and I'm not I know people

1266
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 3: who had it way worse than I did in Scent

1267
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 3: help and comparing yourself to others is not you know,

1268
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 3: uh productive, I guess, but highlighting like the I think

1269
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 3: I became kind of insincere about my own story because

1270
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 3: I kind of it kind of you get numb after

1271
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 3: having to say, like, oh so tell just as a

1272
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 3: little backstory, tell us a little bit about you. And

1273
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 3: then I'm like, it's essentially like a trauma dump every

1274
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 3: time I do that, and I can't.

1275
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 4: Relate at all.

1276
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, whatever, bro, And I was at least happy that

1277
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 3: I was self aware enough to like separate what I

1278
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 3: felt was wrong and what was actually wrong, and like

1279
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:12,680
Speaker 3: I knew that no one was telling me all these

1280
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 3: things that I was thinking about myself. But and then

1281
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 3: like people were worried about me. I think the only

1282
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:20,760
Speaker 3: people that the only person that my dad is worried

1283
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 3: about is him, like personally, because not only did he

1284
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 3: come to my house to get me to take down

1285
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 3: the video, and that's what it's said in the.

1286
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 2: Texts, it said take down the video, not are you okay?

1287
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh? He said what did I do? What did

1288
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:35,600
Speaker 3: I do? What did I do?

1289
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 1: Man?

1290
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 3: What did I do? And so his last voicemail ever

1291
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 3: to me is on a video I recently posted on

1292
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:48,799
Speaker 3: my channel. If he actually gave a shit, his interest

1293
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:53,679
Speaker 3: in my well being, I believe would have outlived this

1294
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 3: issue of my video. It would have perhaps gone like

1295
01:08:57,439 --> 01:08:59,639
Speaker 3: and beside the video, like I want to make sure

1296
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 3: my is doing okay, but I know very much how

1297
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 3: my dad operates and what his values are. My mom

1298
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 3: called me and then hung up before I was able

1299
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 3: to pick up the phone or do anything with it,

1300
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 3: so I think she like thought she was going to

1301
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 3: do something.

1302
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:16,960
Speaker 4: I was like, No, that's so sad.

1303
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:21,800
Speaker 2: I like basic fundamental parenting. You'd think, no matter what

1304
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:24,680
Speaker 2: your child is saying, if they're threatening to take their

1305
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 2: own life, like that's that's the urgent priority in that moment.

1306
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, but TikTok bad about scientology. You know, that's bad PR.

1307
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 3: Bad PR is one of the worst things that you

1308
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:37,600
Speaker 3: know your kids can do to you.

1309
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: I mean, even if you weren't on TikTok, just being

1310
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:43,679
Speaker 1: a suppressive person, even if you feel suicidal, you get

1311
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 1: cut off, you know, Like.

1312
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 2: It's it's just it causes people call before cult before.

1313
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 4: Family, right.

1314
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:53,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was very ingrained in my own upbringing. Like

1315
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: there was a verse in the Bible that was always

1316
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: quoted father will fight against son, mother will fight against daughter,

1317
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 1: like an this war when Jesus returns, and it was

1318
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: just like its family does not, is not it like

1319
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:09,679
Speaker 1: you have to fight for the right the religion.

1320
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 4: Yeah wow, yeah, so that's just an evening.

1321
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 3: I mean fundamentally, when you start scientology, you're in these

1322
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 3: like basic courses, the life improvement courses they're called. You

1323
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:23,759
Speaker 3: you know, it's like, oh, how to have a happy family,

1324
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,840
Speaker 3: how to you know, keep a stable relationship, how to

1325
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:31,040
Speaker 3: raise a happy baby, none of which I think have

1326
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,599
Speaker 3: a lot of good advice in them. But later on

1327
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:40,080
Speaker 3: you you you come to understand in the realm of scientology, uh,

1328
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 3: that you are you don't have a you don't have

1329
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 3: sons and daughters, you don't have brothers and sisters. You

1330
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 3: are a spiritual being who has had many bodies and

1331
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 3: many mothers and many fathers. So like you disconnect from

1332
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 3: the from the from the familial buffer, and you're able

1333
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 3: to just be like that dumbass who got into a

1334
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 3: you know, a body that I made, like he's making

1335
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 3: a lot of problems for me.

1336
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 4: It's like religion disassociates you in that way.

1337
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:09,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1338
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just gonna say, there's a lot of

1339
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 3: examples of like religious psychosis, spiritual psychosis that in that

1340
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:16,719
Speaker 3: same vein.

1341
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:22,360
Speaker 2: Right, I was I was gonna mention once again, Jenna,

1342
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 2: because that was one of the notable things. I mean,

1343
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 2: I think various scientologist is. One of the notable things

1344
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 2: I feel like I hear is the lack of warmth

1345
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:36,640
Speaker 2: in the childhood, the lack of parental connection, and how

1346
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 2: much the organization is really like driving wedges in between families,

1347
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:46,679
Speaker 2: both not just after disconnection, which we all know about,

1348
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 2: but also while actively in the organization. And that's one

1349
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 2: of the saddest things that kids are not allowed to

1350
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:54,680
Speaker 2: be kids. Kids are not you know, nurtured in the

1351
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 2: way that children are supposed to be nurtured. And yeah,

1352
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 2: that was something I didn't quite fully understand. I think

1353
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 2: I sort of assumed, like, well, scientologist kids are, they're

1354
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 2: loved because they're scientologist kids.

1355
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:07,280
Speaker 4: But they're not.

1356
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 2: They're a little they're tiny adults from past lives and

1357
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:14,640
Speaker 2: child's a child's body, so you know, they're.

1358
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 3: Not even that. Yeah, even the even the like the

1359
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 3: way they blur the line between like evolutionary science and

1360
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:26,800
Speaker 3: scientology is very like nebulous and hard to describe, like

1361
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 3: you don't really know where science ends or where scientology

1362
01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:32,479
Speaker 3: ends and science begins. You know, it's the same thing

1363
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 3: and the right Yeah, exactly, Yeah, if you just throw

1364
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:42,400
Speaker 3: it all again. But there's so many contradicting pseudoscience in scientology.

1365
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 3: When you try to add it with science, you sound

1366
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:48,960
Speaker 3: very confusing. You think is a very confused. I've seen

1367
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 3: people like stumble over people take weeks to understand a

1368
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:56,280
Speaker 3: simple like a simple concept. So once I removed it

1369
01:12:56,760 --> 01:13:00,240
Speaker 3: from science entirely, that made a lot easier to understand.

1370
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 3: Because it's just a guy, a science fiction writer who

1371
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 3: like invented his own system of belief and then called

1372
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 3: it scientology. Uh you know, uh essentially like skio and

1373
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:20,519
Speaker 3: logos meaning you know, knowing the meaning of the word

1374
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 3: or something some whatever whatever he made up to sound like,

1375
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 3: uh smart. A lot of scientology forces you to be

1376
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 3: as dumb as possible, and in like the very that's

1377
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 3: a very casual way. I'm I'm reducing it to a

1378
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 3: large degree, but you have to like dumb yourself down

1379
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:41,680
Speaker 3: to to make it work in your brain. And it's

1380
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:44,800
Speaker 3: always these weird, you know, very predictable in a lot

1381
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 3: of cults, like this euphoric state of like I finally

1382
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:51,559
Speaker 3: feel good or I finally feel there's like a lack

1383
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 3: of darkness inside and it's like so vague, and this

1384
01:13:55,680 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 3: arbit this arbitrary like anecdotal release becomes like proof to

1385
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 3: them that like, oh this is this happens and it's real.

1386
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter what doesn't work, because those tiny things

1387
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:11,040
Speaker 3: that do work you can cling to and you can say,

1388
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:12,560
Speaker 3: I'm just going to chase that. Like for me, it

1389
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 3: was always I'm gonna solve my problem on this next,

1390
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 3: on the next, like somewhere down the line, I'm going

1391
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 3: to solve this problem I have with myself that everybody

1392
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 3: and my family seems to disdain. But I you know,

1393
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,439
Speaker 3: if you have, if that's what you're looking for, you

1394
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:33,519
Speaker 3: very clearly, at some point in my opinion, would see

1395
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 3: you know, you're you already are that aware about yourself.

1396
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:39,200
Speaker 3: You're not going to You're gonna see that like they're

1397
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:42,040
Speaker 3: not going to accept you at any level. Like by

1398
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 3: the time you reach a certain level of expectation, they're

1399
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 3: already you know, mad that you're not at the next level.

1400
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 2: Right, It's a constant avingle post and cults, and that's

1401
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,479
Speaker 2: the point is to make it unattainable so that you

1402
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 2: remain devoted.

1403
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 4: You mentioned earlier that you maybe did that podcast too soon.

1404
01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 2: We've talked a bit on here about the idea of

1405
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 2: maybe not rushing to tell your story and letting yourself

1406
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:11,439
Speaker 2: process it and understand it a little better before going

1407
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:12,040
Speaker 2: public with it.

1408
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 4: What are your thoughts on that.

1409
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:16,400
Speaker 3: I think it depends on how how you came to

1410
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 3: make the decision to leave, and like you know, everybody's different.

1411
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:22,920
Speaker 3: Not everybody has the same level of education. A lot

1412
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:25,640
Speaker 3: of people have been with hells from education and like

1413
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 3: understanding nuances. I was always interested in certain things, so

1414
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:31,960
Speaker 3: like I looked into mental health and I had my

1415
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 3: own sort of compartmentalization about what I could learn and

1416
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:40,000
Speaker 3: what I couldn't learn. But I think it's important if

1417
01:15:40,280 --> 01:15:42,600
Speaker 3: like when you know you're gonna leave, when you know

1418
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:46,719
Speaker 3: you're leaving, in general, there's this sort of like fire inside.

1419
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:52,200
Speaker 3: There's this like fear excitement. This is a movie to me,

1420
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:57,600
Speaker 3: like what is happening? Like you know that's that is

1421
01:15:57,600 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 3: is a kind of trauma and it's a blow. It's

1422
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:04,080
Speaker 3: like a physical impact to your nervous system. Yeah, yeah,

1423
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 3: it is shocked and it can last longer than you

1424
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:12,360
Speaker 3: feel it and it can cause some disruption. It can

1425
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 3: really mess with your you know, personal space and your

1426
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:21,200
Speaker 3: your concept of boundaries and like you don't know what

1427
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:25,519
Speaker 3: you want and that's normal, but you're not gonna like,

1428
01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:28,680
Speaker 3: you know, looking past just to telling your story. I

1429
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 3: think finding yourself in a safe place first. You know,

1430
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 3: if you're separating yourself from the physical location of your abusers,

1431
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:40,240
Speaker 3: or you know, if you don't live with your family,

1432
01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 3: that's great, or if you don't live with these people

1433
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 3: here involved with that's good. You know, making sure you

1434
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:51,280
Speaker 3: know they don't have like easy access to you sometimes.

1435
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 3: I mean that for me this was sort of what

1436
01:16:54,560 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 3: was important and like seeing someone seeing a professional to uh,

1437
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:05,000
Speaker 3: just understand where you're at, ideally someone who has experienced

1438
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 3: in this kind of thing. I found writing down a

1439
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:12,400
Speaker 3: lot of like writing things down is like super important,

1440
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:15,520
Speaker 3: you know. I kind of had to write a timeline

1441
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,640
Speaker 3: for myself to kind of and it's not easy. So

1442
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 3: people say, oh, I can't do that, I can't do

1443
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 3: a time. It's just even thinking about it, it's just terrible.

1444
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:26,320
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's always going to be terrible what happened? Uh,

1445
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 3: And you know you don't have to send yourself to

1446
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 3: a to a mental hospital if it's if it's that bad.

1447
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:38,240
Speaker 3: I mean, I it's just such a unique experience for people.

1448
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:40,240
Speaker 3: I can't really evaluate what it's going to be like

1449
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:41,920
Speaker 3: for people. It's just why I'm saying that.

1450
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:46,120
Speaker 2: Which is why having a professional help with the pre important.

1451
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And that's kind of like because once you

1452
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:51,679
Speaker 3: know what your story is, you can kind of step

1453
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 3: back and you can look at it and you can

1454
01:17:53,680 --> 01:17:56,200
Speaker 3: you can decide how you want to talk about it,

1455
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 3: and you'll have a better, stronger standpoint. Like I knew

1456
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 3: I was going to answer questions, but I also didn't

1457
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:07,519
Speaker 3: know that I was still in this excitement. I was

1458
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:09,520
Speaker 3: in this You know, you feel a lot of emotions

1459
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 3: and you think that you're they're very right. You think

1460
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 3: you're very certain at very at a lot of points.

1461
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:18,479
Speaker 3: But and you're gonna change. You're gonna make mistakes, You're

1462
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:21,680
Speaker 3: gonna people make mistakes. It's human to make mistakes. So

1463
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 3: I think, like, I don't beat myself up for doing

1464
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 3: the the podcast because it happened, and it's like, literally

1465
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 3: can't change it and where I've come from there is

1466
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:36,520
Speaker 3: like night and day like it is. I can effectively

1467
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:39,799
Speaker 3: say that, like, regardless of what I did or didn't

1468
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 3: do after I posted that TikTok, the old me is

1469
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:49,360
Speaker 3: certainly dead. Uh. You know in the past, I do

1470
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:53,600
Speaker 3: not recognize myself when I like watch old videos or

1471
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:56,280
Speaker 3: I it's just it's always going to be for the better.

1472
01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 3: If it is a toxic situation to leave. I just

1473
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:03,040
Speaker 3: it's hard to say how hard you're going to be

1474
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:05,280
Speaker 3: hit or like, you know, how intense the shock is

1475
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:08,320
Speaker 3: going to be. So just like exercising caution, talking to

1476
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:10,720
Speaker 3: people who have been through it before and who have

1477
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 3: your best interested heart, like professionals for sure. Like I

1478
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:16,680
Speaker 3: think there should be a lot more professionals in the

1479
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 3: space in like the ex cult space, who you know,

1480
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:24,719
Speaker 3: not to lead, but to like provide more tools for people.

1481
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 3: And I know, you know there are there are people

1482
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:31,160
Speaker 3: out there who are doing that, and that's uh, I

1483
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:35,400
Speaker 3: think that's going to help these kinds of people the most.

1484
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:38,960
Speaker 4: In which we all are these kinds of people.

1485
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:42,360
Speaker 3: Try to be.

1486
01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:45,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the people from cults.

1487
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:50,599
Speaker 2: That's three right, Yeah, Well, is there anything else you

1488
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:53,679
Speaker 2: want to add? Anything else do you feel should be said.

1489
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:59,120
Speaker 1: You know, we have to get your YouTube information as well.

1490
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:04,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I can. I can talk forever, so I

1491
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:08,519
Speaker 3: will just say you can check me out on YouTube

1492
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 3: at Ian rafalco uh Ian all on all my socials

1493
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 3: mostly Twitter and YouTube, Instagram. Is kind of just like

1494
01:20:18,040 --> 01:20:19,680
Speaker 3: if people need to reach out to me or if

1495
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:24,160
Speaker 3: they want to you know, I'm I'm checking around. I

1496
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 3: see people's messages, I see all of it. So check

1497
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:28,400
Speaker 3: me out.

1498
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:31,559
Speaker 4: Well, thank you, thank you so much.

1499
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 3: As really, it is fantastic to be here. I I

1500
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:38,320
Speaker 3: really appreciate the kinds of questions that you asked. It's

1501
01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:41,400
Speaker 3: very different than than other podcasts I've been on.

1502
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:43,599
Speaker 4: Oh thanks, that's nice.

1503
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:48,479
Speaker 2: All right, and that concludes our interview with Ian Meghan.

1504
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:51,880
Speaker 2: We've talked about scientology obviously in a number of episodes here,

1505
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,439
Speaker 2: so I'm not going to ask you about that. I do, however,

1506
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:57,760
Speaker 2: want to just take a second to note that I

1507
01:20:57,800 --> 01:21:02,280
Speaker 2: did not know about the history of chiropractic, which I

1508
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:04,680
Speaker 2: guess we can. There are different ways to say it,

1509
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 2: but well, let's just say chiropractic, like what Ian brought

1510
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:13,920
Speaker 2: up in this episode, its founder Daniel David Palmer was

1511
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:18,160
Speaker 2: a practicing mesmerist and spiritualist who attributed his quote discovery

1512
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:21,920
Speaker 2: of chiropractic in eighteen ninety five to communications from the

1513
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:27,160
Speaker 2: disembodied spirit of a deceased physician. And in two thousand

1514
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:30,280
Speaker 2: and three there was a survey that confirmed that most

1515
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:34,240
Speaker 2: chiropractors still hold a lot of the same views that

1516
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:39,479
Speaker 2: that initial founder held, which is very interesting. Not to

1517
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 2: say everybody who's interested in this field is a total

1518
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:47,760
Speaker 2: quack and scammer, but there, I would imagine would be

1519
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:51,599
Speaker 2: a higher number of them in this field, especially because

1520
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:53,680
Speaker 2: I know a bunch of people who go to chiropractors

1521
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 2: who claim to have cures for absolutely everything that are

1522
01:21:57,080 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 2: not evidence based.

1523
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 1: Listen. I love like a chiropractor who's just like, let

1524
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 1: me crack your neck and back, nothing's better, But yeah,

1525
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 1: I don't go to ones that are like and then

1526
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:09,520
Speaker 1: you'll be healed from everything.

1527
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1528
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:13,200
Speaker 2: I think there are definitely people who kind of tout it.

1529
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 4: As as like a cure all.

1530
01:22:16,439 --> 01:22:20,720
Speaker 2: And that obviously is a major red flag. Also, there's

1531
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:24,120
Speaker 2: a lot of like pseudoscience language that's used by some people,

1532
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:26,479
Speaker 2: and I know people who've been scanned by chiropractors who

1533
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:30,839
Speaker 2: were selling them supplements that made them more sick. But anyway,

1534
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 2: so just to clarify his father, who calls himself doctor

1535
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:38,280
Speaker 2: eric Berg, if you are a chiropractor, you cannot just

1536
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:41,400
Speaker 2: call yourself doctor. You have to put DC or chiropractor

1537
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:44,720
Speaker 2: after some people understand. In some places he has this.

1538
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:47,160
Speaker 2: In other places he does not. On his YouTube page

1539
01:22:47,600 --> 01:22:48,080
Speaker 2: he has it.

1540
01:22:48,120 --> 01:22:50,520
Speaker 4: But his website is doctor Ericberg dot com.

1541
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:53,360
Speaker 2: His at the top it just says doctor eric Berg

1542
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:57,280
Speaker 2: and then like a little trademark logo or whatever. And

1543
01:22:57,320 --> 01:23:00,000
Speaker 2: then on his father's website, the first thing you see

1544
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:01,920
Speaker 2: is a photo of him with tape over his mouth

1545
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:04,479
Speaker 2: and a sentence that says, some of my biggest health

1546
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:10,040
Speaker 2: topics have been silenced. Oh so anyway, just be you know,

1547
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:13,200
Speaker 2: be careful at there, folks. I guess that's what I am.

1548
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:14,920
Speaker 2: I guess that's my takeaway here.

1549
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:18,679
Speaker 1: The world just never seeses to come up with new

1550
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 1: ways to scam us. I know. Keep safe out there, y'all,

1551
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:27,720
Speaker 1: and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1552
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:29,000
Speaker 1: for red flags.

1553
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 4: And never ever trusts me.

1554
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:38,720
Speaker 2: Bye trust me. As produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp

1555
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:40,320
Speaker 2: and Steve Delemator.

1556
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:41,839
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1557
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:44,160
Speaker 4: And her theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1558
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:47,280
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1559
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:50,800
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1560
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:52,520
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1561
01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:56,080
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1562
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:59,440
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1563
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:00,559
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1564
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:03,080
Speaker 4: Remember to rate and review and spread the words

1565
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:09,040
Speaker 1: M