Speaker 1: You're listening to The Buck Sexton Show podcast, make sure
Speaker 1: you subscribe to the podcast on the iHeartRadio app or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the special edition
Speaker 1: of Holding On. I'm Buck Sexton. Independence Day weekend is here,
Speaker 1: my friends, one of my favorite holidays, right up there
Speaker 1: with Christmas, Thanksgiving definitely top three. And it's a time
Speaker 1: when we can all take a step back and just
Speaker 1: think about how America's awesome and this is the greatest
Speaker 1: country in the world, in fact, in the history of
Speaker 1: the world. And a big part of that awesome as
Speaker 1: comes from our amazing history of presidents. Not all of
Speaker 1: them have been great, obviously, but if there have been
Speaker 1: some tremendous patriots, some geniuses of governance, some titan of
Speaker 1: the polity, and we want to take a moment here
Speaker 1: before you go off for your holiday weekend and just
Speaker 1: celebrate some of the best of the best, their wisdom,
Speaker 1: their ideas, the things that brought this country together and
Speaker 1: have pushed us forward to this point in time where
Speaker 1: despite all of our challenges, all the stuff we talked
Speaker 1: about here on the show, America is still number one.
Speaker 1: And that's something that we should all be pretty darn
Speaker 1: happy about. So let's take a look. For example, George Washington.
Speaker 1: We'll start with number one. Number O oh no, George
Speaker 1: Washington from his farewell address, it is important that the
Speaker 1: habits of thinking in a free country should inspire caution
Speaker 1: in those entrusted with its administration to confine themselves within
Speaker 1: their respective constitutional spears. That's from Washington back in seventeen
Speaker 1: ninety six September of that year. George Washington was amazing,
Speaker 1: and he could have turned himself into a king, as
Speaker 1: we all know, he could have gone even further. Who
Speaker 1: knows how long we could have had presidential even King Washington.
Speaker 1: But he loved this country and he wanted a government
Speaker 1: of by and for the people, not to be replicating
Speaker 1: the monarchy that he had such a critical role in
Speaker 1: overthrowealth pushing off American shore. As I should say, and
Speaker 1: this is obviously one of the greatest presidents we've ever had.
Speaker 1: A lot of people say the greatest, tough to beat
Speaker 1: number one. Not only was he great, he was the first.
Speaker 1: And without him would we even have had this republic
Speaker 1: bestowed to bestowed to all of us. So we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk more about the greatness of George Washington. Here, just
Speaker 1: a little bit of a trip down awesome lane with
Speaker 1: our man George w not Bush, but Washington, and we'll
Speaker 1: have a conversation about him with an expert a little
Speaker 1: bit we also have, of course, you can talk about
Speaker 1: George w also gonna talk about Thomas Jefferson. Right back
Speaker 1: in March of eighteen oh one, Jefferson wrote, a wise
Speaker 1: and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another,
Speaker 1: shall leave them otherwise just free to regulate their own
Speaker 1: pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from
Speaker 1: the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. You
Speaker 1: gotta remember, folks, especially in this time when there's endless
Speaker 1: regulation and taxation and a lot of it, it it feels
Speaker 1: like without representation, at least, not worthwhile representation that the
Speaker 1: American founders, of which Jefferson was clearly a giant, they
Speaker 1: understood that the government needs to just do some basic things.
Speaker 1: Keep people from hurting each other illegally, right, keep people
Speaker 1: from injuring one another, and let them do their thing.
Speaker 1: Let the business of the American people be business. I
Speaker 1: think that's actually Calvin Coolidge quote. But nonetheless, Calvin Coolidge
Speaker 1: is a pretty good guy too, and not actually be
Speaker 1: constantly taking so much from the American people that they
Speaker 1: feel like their government is onerous and oppressive. Now that
Speaker 1: was from the founding. You think about this right now,
Speaker 1: with the inflation rate where it is, the Biden administration
Speaker 1: in this state of just termore and constant dissent in
Speaker 1: terms of the polls and just the way people feel
Speaker 1: about the country. Yeah, it feels like they're taking too
Speaker 1: much from us these days. It feels like they've made
Speaker 1: everything more expensive. Remember, inflation is just attacks on working
Speaker 1: people that hurts them more than anybody else. So we
Speaker 1: are going to talk more about Jefferson, the genius of
Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson. Also got to throw in there. James Madison,
Speaker 1: one of the authors of the Federalist Papers, of course,
Speaker 1: the primary author and Federalists number five. He wrote, if
Speaker 1: angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls
Speaker 1: on government would be necessary. In framing, a government would
Speaker 1: just to be administered by men over men. The great
Speaker 1: difficulty lies in this. You must first enable the govern
Speaker 1: to control the government, and in the next place oblige
Speaker 1: it to control itself. You've got to restrain the Leviathan,
Speaker 1: my friends, it's absolutely critical. You see, our founding fathers
Speaker 1: understood that one of the great travesties of the previous
Speaker 1: centuries in Europe was that you had these monarchs who,
Speaker 1: in different ways, would basically do whatever they want to.
Speaker 1: Right Magna Carta back in twelve fifteen in England was
Speaker 1: an attempt to at least put some rules the road
Speaker 1: in place, but they were often broken, and other countries
Speaker 1: in Europe obviously had no such restraints on the power
Speaker 1: of the monarchy. And you can't live with that level
Speaker 1: of tyranny. You're not a free people. If the government
Speaker 1: can just turn on the oppression mechanism, there's nothing that
Speaker 1: you can do about it. And that's just the way
Speaker 1: that it is. So Madison was saying, look, we want governance,
Speaker 1: but we don't want a governance that has no limitations.
Speaker 1: There have to be clear markers of what the government
Speaker 1: can and cannot do. And now, look, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of president you can throw in the mix. A
Speaker 1: lot of people think and probably gonna talk about Abraham
Speaker 1: Lincoln next. I don't know, some of you probably get
Speaker 1: really excited about Calvin Coolidge. Are other names that might
Speaker 1: come to mind or Democrat viewers maybe FDR, though I'd
Speaker 1: probably argue with them on that one. But Ronald Reagan,
Speaker 1: my friends, Ronald Reagan a guy talk about someone who
Speaker 1: loves freedom and in living memory, was president of the
Speaker 1: United States. You got to think about our man Reagan.
Speaker 1: Here he was back in nineteen eighty nine talking about
Speaker 1: how America is freedom. We've got to do a better
Speaker 1: job of getting across that America is freedom, freedom of speech,
Speaker 1: freedom of religion, freedom of enterprise, and freedom is special
Speaker 1: and rare. It's fragile, it needs production. We could say
Speaker 1: it quite like Dutch. All right, Look, it's Independence Day weekend.
Speaker 1: I know you're thinking about the holiday and everything else.
Speaker 1: Let's just do a little, as I said, trip down
Speaker 1: awesome lane here about freedom, liberty and America with some
Speaker 1: of the greatest presidents we've ever had a little bit
Speaker 1: of a refresher and fresh look at why they were
Speaker 1: so awesome. We'll get into that with some experts coming
Speaker 1: up here withhold the line. I don't know if you
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Speaker 1: dot com, hometitlelock dot com. George Washington, the hero of
Speaker 1: the Revolution, was the most admired and beloved American of
Speaker 1: his time. It is only natural that in seventeen eighty nine,
Speaker 1: the nation turned to him to serve as the first
Speaker 1: president under its new constitution. While in office, Washington was
Speaker 1: careful to adhere to the constitution he had sworn to
Speaker 1: protect and established many of the presidents that are still
Speaker 1: observed to this day. In his seventeen ninety six Farewell
Speaker 1: addressed the American people, Washington warned of the dangers of
Speaker 1: a government that acts beyond its constitution, beyond its constitutional authority,
Speaker 1: a quote that's especially relevant today. Here, If in the
Speaker 1: opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the
Speaker 1: constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be
Speaker 1: corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates.
Speaker 1: But let there be no change by usurpation. Or though
Speaker 1: this in one instance maybe the instrument of good, it
Speaker 1: is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed. Yes, Indeed,
Speaker 1: Joman out of gave more insight into America's first president.
Speaker 1: Is another president of the Heritage Foundation, Kevin Roberts. Kevin,
Speaker 1: thanks for being with us, Thanks for having me, Buck,
Speaker 1: It's pleasure. So look, there are some presidents that everybody know,
Speaker 1: every school child knows George Washington, first president, really important.
Speaker 1: You know, he's on some of our money, Our capital's
Speaker 1: named for him. How is this man such a giant?
Speaker 1: I mean, we're going to Independence Day weekend. We're having
Speaker 1: a little raw role Meerica moment here. How did he
Speaker 1: bring it all together? You know, ironically, Buck Washington is
Speaker 1: a giant two hundred and fifty years after he burst
Speaker 1: onto the scene as a young army officer because of
Speaker 1: his humility. I mean, this is a man, if you
Speaker 1: read even a short biography of him, who possessed so
Speaker 1: many human virtues, so many great attributes. You know, I
Speaker 1: could at least speak for myself. If it were me,
Speaker 1: I'd probably be a little arrogant about having all those things.
Speaker 1: He was quite the opposite, And so I think his
Speaker 1: humility actually made him appeal to people. They sort of
Speaker 1: were drawn to want to be led by him. And
Speaker 1: he understood this very important point, which is the virtue
Speaker 1: of virtues, as our founders understood, and that's magnanimity, that
Speaker 1: is aspiring to great things and impairing those two things
Speaker 1: meant that he was willing to sacrifice for the country
Speaker 1: in ways that he and his wife never anticipated doing,
Speaker 1: and for us now in the twenty first century, he
Speaker 1: remains a timeless model of what it means to adhere
Speaker 1: to American values. What do people know to this day
Speaker 1: about about George Washington to the man? You know, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's there's some legends, right, but there's also enough biographical
Speaker 1: record and from the contemporary sources that we should have
Speaker 1: some portrait of him, obviously metaphorically speaking. So what was
Speaker 1: he like? Washington was a man that you wanted to
Speaker 1: spend some time with. We would probably know even more
Speaker 1: about him had it not been that his wife burned
Speaker 1: almost all of the letters that he wrote to her,
Speaker 1: just to make sure that their relationship remained private, even
Speaker 1: for posterity's sake. But because the Washington's were so generous
Speaker 1: and hosting people at their home at Mount Vernon, we
Speaker 1: have a lot of firsthand accounts of what it was
Speaker 1: like to be in his person, and he was generous.
Speaker 1: He was not nearly as quiet as sometimes we portray
Speaker 1: him to be. It isn't that he was as gregarious
Speaker 1: as some of his peers, but he was a very
Speaker 1: good conversationalist. He was extremely well read, He was certainly
Speaker 1: much smarter. He possessed a greater intellect than sometimes the
Speaker 1: contrast with Jefferson and Hamilton might suggest. But the point was,
Speaker 1: you wanted to be at dinner with Washington. You wanted
Speaker 1: if you happen to be an aide to camp or
Speaker 1: a young officer in the Continental Army, you wanted to
Speaker 1: be in his presence. Not because he was going to
Speaker 1: give some sidewinding inspirational speech, but because he would really
Speaker 1: focus on you. He would home in on you as
Speaker 1: a person and come to know you and also inspire
Speaker 1: you in that way that sometimes these more quiet leaders.
Speaker 1: Do you know? He just as I'd sit here describing
Speaker 1: this as a historian, I think this is one of
Speaker 1: the guys I've always wanted to be able to spend
Speaker 1: some time with, if perhaps somehow time travel. We're not fiction.
Speaker 1: And what can you tell us about Washington's for Washington
Speaker 1: becoming a great military leader? I mean, we often be
Speaker 1: first president. A lot of thoughts about the early days
Speaker 1: of the Republic under his time. A lot of people
Speaker 1: think about that. But he had a long and distor
Speaker 1: He had a very distinguished, certainly and reasonably long military
Speaker 1: career as well. Yeah, Washington cut his teeth as a
Speaker 1: young military officer because he was willing to go on
Speaker 1: some pretty daring horseback raids. In fact, he got into
Speaker 1: trouble during the French and Indian War as a result
Speaker 1: of doing that. But there are a couple of attributes
Speaker 1: of Washington as a military leader that military historians have highlighted.
Speaker 1: The first is Washington is a very highly regarded tactician.
Speaker 1: You know, as it turns out, as you know, Washington
Speaker 1: had a lot of practice in the early years of
Speaker 1: the Revolution using the tactic of retreat. You know, as
Speaker 1: I say that, students might say, well, gosh, he must
Speaker 1: have been awful. No, actually it was rather brilliant because,
Speaker 1: as many people know, the Condinal Army, almost routinely, in
Speaker 1: contrast with the British Army, was underresourced. It was undermanned,
Speaker 1: and he had to be very prudent about the number
Speaker 1: of men and the amount of resources he had, and
Speaker 1: so he developed a very efficient way of abandoning a
Speaker 1: battlefield if it was not so strategically important to live
Speaker 1: to fight another day. And it leads me to the
Speaker 1: second attribute of Washington as a military leader that historians
Speaker 1: have recognized and even cell painted, and it is his
Speaker 1: understanding that what happened on the battlefield had a huge
Speaker 1: impact on the home front. This is particularly true during
Speaker 1: the British New York campaign in seventeen seventy six. In
Speaker 1: other words, he understood he had to minimize losses and
Speaker 1: he had to find those rare opportunities for his under
Speaker 1: manned army to find a tactical victory, which, of course
Speaker 1: he did enough early in the war to keep the
Speaker 1: morale at home going. This is a very underappreciated attribute
Speaker 1: of a military leader. That's particularly important in a republic
Speaker 1: where sustaining that morale, that will, that popular will for
Speaker 1: support of the cause is always difficult. And what were
Speaker 1: some of the most important things for everyone at home
Speaker 1: when it came to Washington's role in the creation of
Speaker 1: this new republic, I mean more on the political side. Now,
Speaker 1: people often think about how well Washington could have made
Speaker 1: himself king, right, but he decided that he didn't want that.
Speaker 1: To your point about humility, what should everyone know? Well,
Speaker 1: we cannot overstate that enough. I mean, it was very possible,
Speaker 1: it was politically plausible, if not likely, that if Washington
Speaker 1: wanted to be king or wanted to serve a limitless
Speaker 1: number of terms as president he could have. He was
Speaker 1: that popular. I mean, the Republic, the young Republic, owed
Speaker 1: that much debt to him for his leadership. And so
Speaker 1: once again it comes back to his humility, even as
Speaker 1: a very popular political persona. But the second thing is
Speaker 1: he was an excellent judge of character and excellent judge
Speaker 1: of talent. And so just as he assembled the right
Speaker 1: combination of generals during the war, he assembled what I
Speaker 1: think remains the greatest cabinet of all of our president
Speaker 1: presidential administrations in history. I think about the talent the
Speaker 1: virtue of those men that you know, the first secretaries
Speaker 1: of the various federal departments. Washington assembled them in a
Speaker 1: way that recognized there were some political differences among them,
Speaker 1: as we often discussed in history classes, but they also
Speaker 1: knew that they were forging a new republic. And it
Speaker 1: leads me to conclude my celebration of his political acumen
Speaker 1: by saying, he also recognized that America would be thrown
Speaker 1: into some political tension. And obviously, after he left office,
Speaker 1: and especially after he died, America did descend, I might say,
Speaker 1: into its two party political system. But what Washington was
Speaker 1: able to do for the better part of a decade
Speaker 1: was keep that those factions from developing and focused instead
Speaker 1: on the economic and political and social health of the country.
Speaker 1: Had he not done that, Buck, and had we descended
Speaker 1: into Washington being leader of one political party or another,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure America would have been able to win
Speaker 1: its next major conflict with the British, the War of
Speaker 1: eighteen twelve. Kevin, appreciate you educating us all for Independence
Speaker 1: Day weekend on Washington. We're gonna talk you a little
Speaker 1: later about another great president, So stay with us. Okay,
Speaker 1: after the break, Historian Kevin Gutzman joins us to help
Speaker 1: examine the author of the Declaration of Independence and arguably
Speaker 1: America's most radical president in some ways, Thomas Jefferson, Stay
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Speaker 1: percent off. As we've been discussing, America has had a
Speaker 1: share of presidents who were dedicated to the ideals of liberty,
Speaker 1: but few, if any, are as closely associated with that
Speaker 1: ideal as our third President, Thomas Jefferson, as the primary
Speaker 1: author of the Declaration of Independence. It was Jefferson who's
Speaker 1: credited with the immortal words that serves the bedrock of
Speaker 1: American liberty. We hold these truths to be self evident,
Speaker 1: that all men are created equal, they are endowed by
Speaker 1: their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty,
Speaker 1: and the pursuit of happiness. They're just what kind of
Speaker 1: president was Thomas Jefferson doing? To me? From We're inside
Speaker 1: as pressor of History at Western connect State University, an
Speaker 1: author of Thomas Jefferson Revolutionary A Radical Struggle to Remake America,
Speaker 1: Kevin GutsMan, Kevin, thanks for being with us. I mean
Speaker 1: to be here, Buck. So just when you first sit
Speaker 1: down and you're speaking to students and you want to
Speaker 1: give them a sense, I mean, we're going into the
Speaker 1: Independence Day weekend now people are thinking a lot about America,
Speaker 1: our history, the greatness of Jefferson. Where do you begin? Well, wow,
Speaker 1: he stood for American independence. He stood for the independence
Speaker 1: of the individual. Is guiding principle in American politics was federalism,
Speaker 1: or the idea of decentralization. He said that when it
Speaker 1: came to conflicts between the federal government of the states,
Speaker 1: he would favor the states. Within a state, he would
Speaker 1: tend to favor the counties, and within a county he
Speaker 1: would favor what he called wards, what we would think
Speaker 1: of his precincts. So he had the idea that virtually
Speaker 1: nobody would be in a position like his and which
Speaker 1: he could influence national policy directly. And so if the
Speaker 1: common men were going to help to shape his own
Speaker 1: life as much as feasible, government should be as decentralized
Speaker 1: as practicable. And that's what he argued for while he
Speaker 1: was in Congress, when he was in the cabinet, and
Speaker 1: ultimately as president. And there were many facets did Jefferson right?
Speaker 1: I mean, he obviously is known as one of the
Speaker 1: primary found fathers. He was also an autodidact on a
Speaker 1: number of issues, right he was. He was an inventor.
Speaker 1: He had I mean to tell everyone a little bit
Speaker 1: about some of his areas of exploration. Some of the
Speaker 1: things that he did that aren't you know, aren't necessarily
Speaker 1: the first things that come to mind. I mean about
Speaker 1: my understanding is he was really into plants and astronomy
Speaker 1: and why making and all kinds of things. Right well,
Speaker 1: he wanted to be o'car in every area of science.
Speaker 1: So he was a path breaking linguist. He was highly
Speaker 1: interested in anthropology. He was an ethno historian. He was
Speaker 1: the first person who conducted a scientific archaeological excavation in
Speaker 1: North America. In fact, a colleague of mine tells me
Speaker 1: that that excavation, the methods he used remained current among
Speaker 1: archaeologists for over a century after Jefferson conducted it. He
Speaker 1: wrote the most important American book of the eighteenth century,
Speaker 1: and there he was a leading architect, and in fact
Speaker 1: he's the fellow who's most responsible for the fact that
Speaker 1: American public buildings tend to be highly influenced by Greek
Speaker 1: and Roman architecture. He also had the idea that America
Speaker 1: should have a decimal based coinage system. In fact, that
Speaker 1: was ours was the first one of such in the world,
Speaker 1: and in my memory even finally the British decided they
Speaker 1: should have a decimal coinage system too. So there is
Speaker 1: Jefferson's influence basically everywhere you want to look. And now
Speaker 1: talk to me a bit about the philosophical and personal
Speaker 1: debate between what I guess you could call Jeffersonianism and Hamiltonianism.
Speaker 1: Well I mentioned Jefferson's primary political principle was this idea
Speaker 1: of decentralization, that if you wanted to elevate the role
Speaker 1: of the common man in making his community and making
Speaker 1: his life, had to ensure that the power of government
Speaker 1: was as localized as possible. Hamilton had essentially the opposite idea.
Speaker 1: He thought it was extremely important for the United States
Speaker 1: to be a powerful country on the world stage, and
Speaker 1: so worked energetically to create the US Constitution. And then
Speaker 1: once the Washington administration came and he was Treasury Secretary,
Speaker 1: he worked indefatigably to try to centralize authority, to try
Speaker 1: to make the federal authority as strong as it could be,
Speaker 1: and this of course set the stage for the epic
Speaker 1: clash between the two of them in the cabinet. Now,
Speaker 1: what can you tell us about Jefferson's thoughts on the
Speaker 1: French Revolution and perhaps some of the areas where if
Speaker 1: he had seen where things were going, he might have
Speaker 1: fought a little differently, I mean, on the cover of
Speaker 1: your book, as Jefferson, the revolutionary American Revolution ended up
Speaker 1: quite differently from the French Revolution. There's the book again,
Speaker 1: by the way, Thomas Jefferson, Revolutionary, his thoughts on the
Speaker 1: French Revolution, and did he have any regrets? Well, actually,
Speaker 1: Jefferson ended up saying that the reason that the French
Speaker 1: Revolution had been such a failure, and he was essentially
Speaker 1: the last important American to concede that it had been
Speaker 1: a failure, was that he said, they ultimately settled on
Speaker 1: the principle of and he used the French unadvisible, or
Speaker 1: we would say one nation indivisible. So he thought the
Speaker 1: problem that the French had come to was that their
Speaker 1: National Assembly at the beginning of the revolution insisted we
Speaker 1: are the nation, and so they eliminated all the internal
Speaker 1: boundaries of France and said the administrative, the local, more
Speaker 1: local levels of government are going to exist for the
Speaker 1: administrative convenience of the center. To Jefferson, looked like a
Speaker 1: reflection of Hamiltonianism, and he thought this was the reason
Speaker 1: why it had ended in the dictatorship. So, on one hand,
Speaker 1: Jefferson had been very hopeful about the French Revolution because
Speaker 1: in its early he was involved in drafting the French
Speaker 1: Declaration of Rights of Man and Citizen, and many of
Speaker 1: his acquaintances from the American Revolution, French officers who had
Speaker 1: been here and fought for the United States, ended up
Speaker 1: being leaders in the early days of the French Revolution.
Speaker 1: But again, of course it failed, and he thought the
Speaker 1: main problem was essentially that the French had not seen
Speaker 1: his own personal primary principle as being as important as
Speaker 1: it was to him. And if you're just looking at
Speaker 1: what Jefferson. Now, there's of course what he wrote as
Speaker 1: part of the American founding, American independence movement, and his
Speaker 1: role as an intellectual giant and all of that. But
Speaker 1: if you were looking more specifically at his achievements as president,
Speaker 1: what would be some of the top things that come
Speaker 1: to mind. Well, the most important thing, of course, this
Speaker 1: is Louisiana Purchase, which doubled the size of the United States.
Speaker 1: He also was responsible for the Voyage of Discovery, or
Speaker 1: what's more commonly called the Lewis and Clark Expedition, which
Speaker 1: traced a path from the Mississippi all the way to
Speaker 1: the Pacific, which nowadays we think of as you know,
Speaker 1: that's pretty pedestrian, but at the time people really had
Speaker 1: no idea what was out there. And Jefferson was the
Speaker 1: one who was responsible for the fact that Lewis and
Speaker 1: Clark made their way to what is now Oregon, staked
Speaker 1: an American claim there, and made America a transcontinental country.
Speaker 1: So these are the most important things. He also, well
Speaker 1: he might have contested my appraisal, because he also was
Speaker 1: the one responsible for the program that ultimately resulted in
Speaker 1: paying off the American federal debt completely in the eighteen
Speaker 1: thirty five people hear that Andrew Jackson paid off the debt,
Speaker 1: He's responsible for that. Actually, Andrew Jackson happened to be
Speaker 1: the president who was in office when Albert Gallatin, says,
Speaker 1: Jefferson's treasury secretaries planned for paying off the debt came
Speaker 1: to fruition. It was paid off on the day that
Speaker 1: it was scheduled to be paid off during the Jefferson administration.
Speaker 1: So that was also extremely important to Jefferson. And he
Speaker 1: would have said that the ultimate collapse of the Federalist Party,
Speaker 1: the virtual disappearance of Alexander Hamilton's party during Jefferson's lifetime,
Speaker 1: was a vindication of Jefferson's arguments that Americans were essentially
Speaker 1: all Republicans, famously set in his first inaugural address. We've
Speaker 1: called by different names brethren of the same principle, where
Speaker 1: all Republicans were all Federalists. But really he thought that
Speaker 1: Americans generally were all Jeffersonians, and of course he thought
Speaker 1: he had been vindicated by the disappearance of Hamilton's party
Speaker 1: in his lifetime. Kevin, stay right with us. We'll be
Speaker 1: back with more here. Because while Thomas Jefferson was the
Speaker 1: genius behind the Declaration of Independence. America's fourth president was
Speaker 1: argued to the most prominent proponent of the nation's other
Speaker 1: founding document, the United States Constitution. We'd come back with
Speaker 1: take a closer look at America's fourth president, James Madison,
Speaker 1: stay with us. He's called the father of the Constitution.
Speaker 1: America's fourth president, James Madison, played a key role in
Speaker 1: the adoption of the United States Constitution, contributing not only
Speaker 1: to its drafting, but authoring twenty nine to the Federalist
Speaker 1: Papers in its defense. In his later years, Madison would
Speaker 1: look back on the nation for which he'd fought and remarked,
Speaker 1: the happy union of these states is a wonder, their constitution,
Speaker 1: a miracle, their example, the hope of liberty throughout the world.
Speaker 1: Joy once again. His historian and author of James Madison
Speaker 1: and the Making of America, Kevin GutsMan, Kevin effects so
Speaker 1: much happy to be here. So you know, there's Washington,
Speaker 1: there's Jefferson. There's some presidents whose names come with so
Speaker 1: much more cultural attention. And I think you know if
Speaker 1: you ask, if you ask any third grader who George
Speaker 1: Washington is, well, they know right, you ask them who
Speaker 1: James Madison is, they'll probably get it, but they won't
Speaker 1: have that much to say about it. Maybe we can
Speaker 1: change a little bit of that. Now, what do people
Speaker 1: need to know about James Madison His role in the
Speaker 1: formation of our country are founding documents, and of course
Speaker 1: we'll talk about what he did as president. Well, the
Speaker 1: first really significant thing he did is that, as twenty
Speaker 1: five year old man and the youngest man in the room,
Speaker 1: he was responsible for including the principle of free exercise
Speaker 1: of religion in the Virginia Declaration of Rights of seventeen
Speaker 1: seventy six. So that was the first American Declaration of Rights,
Speaker 1: and Virginia, in adopting this principle, became the first officially
Speaker 1: secular government in the history of the world. If Madison,
Speaker 1: I think, had died at that point, he would still
Speaker 1: be among the couple dozen most important minimer in history
Speaker 1: twenty five years old. He also is the chief figure
Speaker 1: responsible for the fact that there ended up being the
Speaker 1: Philadelphia Convention in summer of seventeen eighty seven, in which
Speaker 1: delegates from twelve states drafted what we now know as
Speaker 1: the United States Constitution. Madison had been one of the
Speaker 1: people who had agitated for that, And then he had
Speaker 1: also persuaded his fellow Virginia delegates to the Philadelphia Convention
Speaker 1: to prepare what came to be known as the Virginia Plan,
Speaker 1: which was an outline of a constitution which they presented
Speaker 1: in the Philadelphia Convention. It became a kind of basis
Speaker 1: of debate. So it's not true that Madison drafted the constitution.
Speaker 1: About half of the proposals in his Virginia Plan were
Speaker 1: not included in the final constitution, but key ones like
Speaker 1: having proportional representation by population in one house, having population
Speaker 1: be reflected in the electoral college, having the new Congress
Speaker 1: have power to attacks, these were all Madison's ideas that
Speaker 1: ended up being in the Constitution. So he's extremely important
Speaker 1: for that reason too. And finally, or another thing that's
Speaker 1: really important about him is that because he had been
Speaker 1: chasened by division in Virginia over whether to agree to
Speaker 1: the Constitution, in the ratification campaign that followed the Philadelphia Convention,
Speaker 1: Madison was persuaded that there needed to be amendments to
Speaker 1: the Constitution. So he's the fellow who in the first
Speaker 1: Federal Congress proposed what came to be called the Bill
Speaker 1: of Rights, and ultimately, of course, Congress referred to twelve
Speaker 1: proposed amendments to the States for the ratification in seventeen
Speaker 1: eighty nine. Ten of those were ratified in seventeen ninety one.
Speaker 1: Those became the first ten amendments, and then another one
Speaker 1: of those twelve was ratified in nineteen ninety two, so
Speaker 1: it's the most recent amendment. The twenty seventh Amendment was
Speaker 1: also James Madison's handiwork. There are various other things he did,
Speaker 1: but I think those are the most important. What do
Speaker 1: we know about him as a man? I mean, what
Speaker 1: could we say about We have a good sense of
Speaker 1: his temperament. Which of the Founding fathers, whom among the
Speaker 1: Founding fathers was he close to? Was he audiologically allied to? Well?
Speaker 1: He and Thomas Jefferson were literally each other's best friends
Speaker 1: in the world. So the two of them were the
Speaker 1: closest of political allies. That tandem is the most important
Speaker 1: in American history. They had most of their leading principles
Speaker 1: in common. He also, from time to time had temporary
Speaker 1: alignments with Robert Morris, who was the Minister for Finance,
Speaker 1: the Secretary for finance during the Confederation, with President Washington
Speaker 1: both during the war and then during the first Congress
Speaker 1: under the new Constitution, and of course with Alexander Hamilton,
Speaker 1: both in having the Philadelphia Convention occur and then in
Speaker 1: arguing that the constitution it produced ought to be ratified. Madison,
Speaker 1: as far as his personality, who was a quiet fellow.
Speaker 1: He was bookish. If he found himself in a crowd,
Speaker 1: he might stand in the corner and talk to a
Speaker 1: couple of other people. He was not the kind of
Speaker 1: guy who was a hail fellow well met, although supposedly
Speaker 1: he was good at kind of friendly repartee in a
Speaker 1: small group. But he's also still today the smallest person
Speaker 1: who's ever been president. So the fact that he was
Speaker 1: kind of shy and retiring is not surprising from that
Speaker 1: point of view and just looking at his actual time
Speaker 1: in office, unless the role he played, the huge role
Speaker 1: he played in the Federalist papers, in writing the founding
Speaker 1: documents and the philosophy behind it. He's the fourth president.
Speaker 1: What did he get done? What were the biggest issues?
Speaker 1: What do people need to know? Ah? Well, I think
Speaker 1: the most important factor about Madison's presidency is that his
Speaker 1: foreign policy proved to be a failure. That is, he
Speaker 1: had argued in the Jefferson administration when he was Secretary
Speaker 1: of State that the United States should rely more on
Speaker 1: economic coercion than on traditional balance of powers military equations
Speaker 1: in foreign affairs. The United States, he insisted, didn't need
Speaker 1: to have a significant navy, didn't need to have taxes
Speaker 1: to pay for one. When the War of eighteen twelve
Speaker 1: resulted from the failure of madison'siety of economic coercion, the
Speaker 1: United States weren't really prepared and Madison did a poor
Speaker 1: job of choosing a war secretary, of Navy secretary, and
Speaker 1: so on. The result of this was that a foreign
Speaker 1: army marched into Washington, burned down the Capitol, burned down
Speaker 1: the White House, burned down the Treasury Department, war state.
Speaker 1: It was a debacle, but because of the way the
Speaker 1: war ended, because New England states were being essentially disloyal,
Speaker 1: and ultimately the American diplomats in Europe got a good
Speaker 1: piece out of the deal. The Federalist Party ended up
Speaker 1: being the one that was credited by the War of
Speaker 1: eighteen twelve. So by the time the War of eighteen
Speaker 1: twelve ended in Madison's and Jefferson's friend James Monroe, who
Speaker 1: had been Madison's Secretary of State, succeeded him as the
Speaker 1: fifth president. The Federalist Party, the opposition party, had more
Speaker 1: or less ceased to exist. It's kind of hard to
Speaker 1: imagine that a foreign army invades the country, burns the capital,
Speaker 1: and the incumbent party ends up being the beneficiary of
Speaker 1: the war. But that's really what happened. So by the
Speaker 1: time Madison kind of rides out of Washington, the Federalist
Speaker 1: Party is no longer a significant factor in American politics.
Speaker 1: The Jeffersonian Republicans control today, and they're going to continue
Speaker 1: to do so for another decade. Now. Kevin, You've got
Speaker 1: a new book coming out in December called The Jeffersonians,
Speaker 1: The Visionary Presidencies of Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe. We did
Speaker 1: not give a full segment to Monroe on our show
Speaker 1: here going into the Independence Day weekend, but I just
Speaker 1: wanted to give the man a moment, a minute or
Speaker 1: two here. What do people need to know about the
Speaker 1: Jeffersonianism and the legacy of President Monroe. Well, Monroe's a
Speaker 1: fellow who's responsible for the Transcontinental Treaty. So the fact
Speaker 1: that the United States extended officially from the Atlantic to
Speaker 1: the Pacific is achieved during the Monroe administration. Of course,
Speaker 1: what he's also most famous for today is what's called
Speaker 1: the Monroe Doctrine, which he presented in one of his
Speaker 1: State of the Union messages. And he had the idea,
Speaker 1: in fact, what had been opposition. Newspapers in New England
Speaker 1: referred to his tenure as the Era of Good Feelings
Speaker 1: because Monroe had the idea that if the Federalist Party
Speaker 1: no longer was a united opposition party, there was no
Speaker 1: reason for Monroe to try to keep the Republican Party
Speaker 1: going either. There should be just a kind of nonpartisan
Speaker 1: environment in which Americans had common principles and instead of
Speaker 1: seeing each other as political antagonists, they should try to
Speaker 1: be brethren in the American experiment. So that was the
Speaker 1: way he approached the presidents in his entire two trum tenure.
Speaker 1: He wanted not to have formal parties as a permanent factor. Yeah, Kevin,
Speaker 1: good luck to you in the book. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for bringing us back to some of the history
Speaker 1: that we might have learned a little bit of. And
Speaker 1: grammar school, high school, maybe college and had forgotten. We
Speaker 1: really appreciate you being with us. Thank you, You're welcome.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more of this special edition
Speaker 1: of Hold the Line. No list of great presidents would
Speaker 1: be complete without a discussion of America's fortieth President, Ronald
Speaker 1: Reagan Dutch. Although he would come to be remembered as
Speaker 1: a champion of conservatism, Reagan was once a Democrat, even
Speaker 1: serving as the president of the Screen Actors Guild in
Speaker 1: the nineteen forties and fifties. A fierce defender of liberty
Speaker 1: an opponent of communism, Reagan's finest moment arguably came on
Speaker 1: June twelfth, nineteen eighty seven, when he delivered a pointed
Speaker 1: message to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev. The advance of human
Speaker 1: liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There
Speaker 1: is one sign the Soviets can make that would be unmistakable,
Speaker 1: that would advance dran dramatically the cause of freedom and peace.
Speaker 1: General Secretary Gorbutchev, if you seek peace, if you seek
Speaker 1: prosperity for the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe, if you
Speaker 1: seek liberalization, come here to this gate, mister Gorbutschev, Open
Speaker 1: this gate mister Gorbutschev, tear down this wall, one of
Speaker 1: those famous lines in the history of American politics, journey
Speaker 1: once again to share his thoughts on President Reagan. The
Speaker 1: President of the Heritage Foundation, Kevin Roberts, Kevin, thanks for
Speaker 1: being back with us. My pleasure. Thanks. I gotta say,
Speaker 1: when the top line item of your legacy is brought
Speaker 1: about the defeat of an evil empire that had immiserrated
Speaker 1: people around the world for decades and had threatened the
Speaker 1: world with thousands of nuclear weapons, it's a pretty good start. Yeah,
Speaker 1: As I sit there watching that, I was a thirteen
Speaker 1: year old kid when he delivered that speech, watching it
Speaker 1: with my grandparents. Reagan was the first Republican they voted for.
Speaker 1: They were Democrats in Louisiana, which says something about his cheerfulness.
Speaker 1: I get chills many years later watching that. For this reason,
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time with former students, with
Speaker 1: younger colleagues here at the Heritage Foundation, who know that
Speaker 1: Reagan was special, that he was even a historic figure.
Speaker 1: But because they didn't live through the Cold War, and
Speaker 1: they therefore can't remember the palpable fear that those of
Speaker 1: us who did had about the Soviets. That speech for
Speaker 1: us galvanized the American spirit. For that matter, the spirit
Speaker 1: of freedom for people around the world, folks in Eastern
Speaker 1: Europe obviously timely today, folks in Africa, Latin America. All
Speaker 1: of that to say, of all of the speeches that
Speaker 1: I've studied, that I've taught to students in history, I
Speaker 1: would say in all of history, Buck that speech that
Speaker 1: moment is top five or top ten in modern history.
Speaker 1: Pretty astonishing when you think about it, and we appreciate
Speaker 1: you put it into that context. Reagan's political transformation, or
Speaker 1: perhaps a political evolution from Democrats, Green Actors, guild guy
Speaker 1: to governor California then president. What can you tell us
Speaker 1: about how that whole process came about. What pushed him,
Speaker 1: at least in my opinion, into the light of conservatism, Well,
Speaker 1: two things, sort of a push and a pull. What
Speaker 1: pushed him away from a left of center he was
Speaker 1: never hyper liberal like like we would today in the
Speaker 1: twenty first century, was nonetheless the evolution of the American
Speaker 1: left toward a much more status entity, a movement that
Speaker 1: really wanted the centralization of power in state capitals and
Speaker 1: especially in the nation's capital, and Reagan because of his
Speaker 1: middle class upbringing in the Midwest, knew that's not how
Speaker 1: Americans operated. And simultaneously what pulled him into the conservative
Speaker 1: movement was a number of episodes, not least among them
Speaker 1: very Goldwaters nineteen sixty four speech, another great speech in
Speaker 1: modern history, and Reagan understanding that in order for Americans
Speaker 1: to be self governing, that there was only one political
Speaker 1: and intellectual movement that could be home for him. He was,
Speaker 1: of course treated very poorly by people, fellow actors and
Speaker 1: others on the left coast. But the poll by the
Speaker 1: conservative movement was this recognition that the people needed to
Speaker 1: take power back from those who were centralizing it in Washington, DC.
Speaker 1: In other words, Buck, if we had not had the
Speaker 1: expansion of government through the so called Great Society, and
Speaker 1: even under the Republican president Nixon, I don't think we
Speaker 1: would have had Reagan as a conservative leader, because there
Speaker 1: needed to be some counterweight to all of that nonsense.
Speaker 1: Reagan is, like so many important historical figures, someone who
Speaker 1: also reflects the evolution of his age, and that evolution
Speaker 1: of his age that he reflected was an increasing skepticism,
Speaker 1: if not hostility, towards centralized power. Here in Washington. That
Speaker 1: really is politically one of his greatest legacies. Reagan as
Speaker 1: a communicator is often something that comes up when people
Speaker 1: reflect on his presidency. What was it? Why do you
Speaker 1: think he was so able? Obviously, we came in with
Speaker 1: perhaps his most famous, memorable line and famous speech of
Speaker 1: his entire well of his entire life, and one of
Speaker 1: the most famous of the twentieth century, especially given the
Speaker 1: impact as we discussed of what it was all about.
Speaker 1: Reagan just seemed to connect. Reagan seemed to be able
Speaker 1: to form coalitions of different folks all of the country
Speaker 1: by making the case to them. Why was he so
Speaker 1: good at that? I think because of his upbringing, you
Speaker 1: know it, had studied a lot of historical figures, especially
Speaker 1: in US history, and Reagan is one of those great
Speaker 1: leaders in our country's history, both Democrats and Republicans, who
Speaker 1: is a great communicator because he had life experiences that
Speaker 1: he not only didn't forget as an adult, but that
Speaker 1: he could relate. And the point that I'm trying to
Speaker 1: make here, Buck is Reagan was well read. He was
Speaker 1: a learned man. Even though the Left love to portray
Speaker 1: him is forgetful and dumb. Neither of which was true.
Speaker 1: But he was able to cause Americans to be inspired
Speaker 1: to talk about aspirational goals, lofty abstract ideals like freedom
Speaker 1: and self governance. But this is the key point. He
Speaker 1: was able to do that while also explaining why, from
Speaker 1: our perch on the Gulf Coast where I grew up,
Speaker 1: if you are a working class kid, or if you
Speaker 1: were someone who was well to do, why you should
Speaker 1: care about those ideals in the modern world. It was
Speaker 1: a pretty unique gift for someone in the twentieth century,
Speaker 1: and something that, as we are now a quarter of
Speaker 1: the way into the next century, you realize is pretty
Speaker 1: rare in American political leaders. If almost to look at
Speaker 1: the span of Reagan's accomplishments over the eight years that
Speaker 1: he was in office, right starting with the end of
Speaker 1: the Carter administration, a rough time in American history. Reagan
Speaker 1: comes in. What's it like when Reagan takes office and
Speaker 1: what's the country like when he's done after eight years? Well,
Speaker 1: it's sort of like what I said about folks who
Speaker 1: were not alive then not being able to appreciate the contrast.
Speaker 1: And it's not because younger folks are unlearned. Is because
Speaker 1: when you live it you realize the contrast when it
Speaker 1: comes into office, inflation is through the roof. If you
Speaker 1: wanted to go get a mortgage for your home, you're
Speaker 1: going to pay eighteen even nineteen, sometimes twenty percent. We
Speaker 1: complained today about four and a half and five percent.
Speaker 1: The country, most of all, though, even beyond those economic troubles,
Speaker 1: was in a system or a status of malaise. I mean,
Speaker 1: there was a huge ebb in the morale of the
Speaker 1: American people because at home inflation was terrible. There was
Speaker 1: a lot of discord at home. This is just years,
Speaker 1: a few years after the unsuccessful conclusion of the Vietnam conflict,
Speaker 1: and then abroad, America I have to say, not unlike
Speaker 1: we'd see today under the Biden administration was not really
Speaker 1: projecting strength. Reagan said that America's best days were ahead
Speaker 1: of it, not behind it. And even though there were
Speaker 1: people who criticized him for saying that, when you look
Speaker 1: at his policies in nineteen eighty nine, when he left
Speaker 1: office and you realize inflation was gone, he had initiated
Speaker 1: what was the longest period of uninterrupted prosperity in American
Speaker 1: history up to that point. And most of all, he
Speaker 1: had stared down the Soviets and the Berlin Wall soon
Speaker 1: would be torn down and the Soviet Union would collapse.
Speaker 1: You realize this man did a lot in a short
Speaker 1: amount of time. Kevin, thank you so much for all
Speaker 1: the inside and expertise, and have a happy Independence Day weekend, sir,
Speaker 1: do the same. Thanks for having me. All right, that's
Speaker 1: all the time we have for the special edition of
Speaker 1: Hold the Line. I'd like to thank my guest historian
Speaker 1: Kevin Goodsman and Heritage Foundation President Kevin Roberts for sharing
Speaker 1: their expertise. Build and' riley up next Field's high