1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Quody Dots with Joseph Scott More. Look, I was a 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: normal kid growing up. My favorite movies when I was 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: a kid were probably, let me see, in this order, 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: it would have to be Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Immediately 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: after that, in a very close to first would have 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: to be the actual Willy Wonko movie. I'm not talking 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: about the Johnny Depp thing that was like a nightmare 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: to me. That those were my two favorites. And I 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: have to qualify that by saying I was a normal kid, 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: because I did actually like stuff like that. But I 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: got to tell you one movie that had a lasting 12 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: impact on me other than The Birds, which I saw 13 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: to drive in when I was little and scare the 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: hell out of me, was the movie The Paper Chase. 15 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: I love that movie. I don't know why it is. 16 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: I think it didn't have so much to do with 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: all the associated characters around. It had to do with 18 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: John Howse this character. Because I saw that and I thought, 19 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: even at that young age when it came out in 20 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, I thought, Wow, wouldn't it be great 21 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: to be a lawyer? And it didn't hurt that the 22 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: man in my life that I idolized the most was 23 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: my uncle, who wound up being a prosecutor in the 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: New Orleans area and eventually became a judge, a district judge, 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: and then eventually an appellate judge, and it just seemed 26 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: like a magical environment. It was harsh, it was hard, 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: but you could see within that framework of that. I 28 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: don't know that theatrical piece. I guess that there was 29 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: something to it. It had real resonance with me, even 30 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: at a very young age. You know, if it hadn't 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: been for my uncle that I idolized, I probably would 32 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: have become an attorney, because at one point in time 33 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: I told him that, and he said, if you do, 34 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: I'll never speak to you again. So with that said, 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: I'd like to take you back in time today to 36 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: talk about a first year law student. A first year 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: law student who had all of the promise in the world. 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: Her entire life was ahead of her. She had already 39 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: completed two undergraduate degrees, one in political science and one 40 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: in paralegal, which is no easy fet she was working 41 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: and going to law school. Today, we're going to spend 42 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: a little time thinking about terror. Baker law student, University 43 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: of Georgia, who died back in twenty a one. Coming 44 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: to you from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University. 45 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. I don't 46 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: know why it was David. I used to think that 47 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: I would be good at arguing before court, and I 48 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: think that we romanticize that. You don't really think about 49 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: the grind that law is. I think people see folks 50 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: come into court on television and they think that that's 51 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: all there is to it. And of course that's a 52 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,119 Speaker 1: rather simplistic view of the world because there's so much 53 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: stuff that goes on behind the scenes before you ever make. 54 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: It to court. 55 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: If you're going to be if you're going to be 56 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: that type of attorney, because there's multiple roads, kind of 57 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: like medicine. You can go down and never walk inside 58 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: of a court, and people don't, but you have to 59 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: be prepared, you know, to do this and along the way. 60 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: But I was thinking about Terra's case the other day 61 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: because it came came across my desk and I was 62 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: still when Terra was murdered. I was still with the 63 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: medical examiner in Atlanta. Now this happened in Athens, which 64 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: is I don't know, depend upon where you're going, maybe 65 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: seventy miles away from Atlanta. And it was statewide news 66 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: because it happened at the flagship university in the state 67 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: of Georgia, and stuff like this just never happened. And 68 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: you know what else, it made me reflective of Dave. 69 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: We've just come through the horror and the brutality of 70 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: what happened to lakeln Riley. Just I guess last year, 71 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: you know with it? Yeah, and it's it's weird, isn't 72 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: it weird? And I know that you've you've been involved 73 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: in media your entire life, but isn't it interesting how 74 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: it kind of rises and falls? You know? The terror 75 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: Baker case consumed everything for so long in the media, 76 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: and then I hadn't thought about it in years until 77 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: it came across my desk with some information we're going 78 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: to tell you about. But yet, you know, with Laken, 79 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: that happened, and that was in the news forever and ever, 80 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: and of course that's passed on now we still you know, 81 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: remember obviously, but it's out of the news cycle. It 82 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: and you know what, these two homicides Dave occurred within 83 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: five miles of each other. 84 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 2: Wow, yeah know that. 85 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, they did, yet I'll never forget you. I think 86 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: it's Fawn Drive is the actual name of the street 87 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: where where Tara lost her life. Let me rephrase that 88 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: she didn't lose it, where she was robbed of her 89 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: life and then of course Laken was robbed of her 90 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: life not too far away from there, Dave. 91 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know the background. If you don't know, I'm 92 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,559 Speaker 3: going to give you just the couple of line. It's okay. 93 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 3: Tara Baker, beautiful popular law student at Uga. 94 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 2: Now didn't she already have two bachelor's degree? 95 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, she'd gone to Georgia College, which I think 96 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: I think is Militiville Georgia, which is south of south 97 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: of Athens. Yeah, this is a. 98 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 3: This is somebody who actually is really on the ball, committed. 99 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 3: It's not just enough to be smart to pull off 100 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 3: this type of education. You actually have to spend a 101 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 3: lot of time. You know, there's a lot of smart 102 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: people in the world that are intellectually lazy. This that 103 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 3: was not Tara Baker. Tara Baker was smart and type 104 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 3: a personality. So hours before she turns twenty four years old, 105 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 3: and I think about this show, what I was like 106 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 3: at you know, twenty two, twenty three, twenty four, she 107 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 3: would not have given me the time of day, you know, 108 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 3: I mean. 109 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: She would have gone, you'd lose her. Get out of here. 110 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: He's discovered murdered in her off campus apartment. Yeah, or 111 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 3: killer set fire to her bedroom to try to mask 112 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 3: the crime and destroy evidence. That pretty much gives you 113 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 3: the thumbnail. And again, it happened in two thousand and one, 114 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: and we're talking about it in twenty twenty five because 115 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 3: for over twenty years it was an unsolved case. 116 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: Yep, it laid there. 117 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 3: I mean, we've got a beautiful woman murdered in the 118 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 3: one place she should feel safe, and you couldn't solve it. 119 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: Come on, there has to be a way. 120 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 3: And so when this case became national news again, it 121 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: was because got a suspect. 122 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: Yep. 123 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: And how did they get that all these years later? 124 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: Joe, I know, it's amazing to me, Dave. This case 125 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: also is I'll go ahead and use the word some 126 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: people might take exception to it, and I just don't care. Uh. 127 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: And that's the word notorious. This case was notorious. And 128 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: let me tell you why. As is our theme on bodybacks, 129 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: and shall remain our theme. As I am sitting behind 130 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: the microphone. Families are an extension of the victim, and 131 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: they are victims as well. This case was notorious, Dave 132 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: from an investigative standpoint, because they didn't give the family 133 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: any information. It was there. What's the old saying? Their 134 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: silence is deafening? Dave? Can I throw it a figure 135 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: out to you? Now? This is this is going to 136 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: blow your mind? Are you ready for this? She died 137 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: in twenty oh one. Take a wild guess when the 138 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: corner issued the death certificate? 139 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: Oh wow? Now ten wow? 140 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: Why twenty ten? 141 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: Why it takes so long to get that? 142 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: It's it? It baffles the mind, you know, and you 143 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: have this, you know, there's one thing, you know, I 144 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: know we hammer or I do, I hammer away at 145 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: the idea of closure. But there are these little benchmarks 146 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: along the way as a person is going through grief, 147 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: and you can and look, psychologists have talked about it 148 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: for years and years that these little elements along the 149 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: way where you're kind of not really benchmarks, mile post, 150 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: you know, where you're headed towards some kind of semblance 151 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: of healing. And I've always felt that that death certificate 152 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: just in and of itself. It's symbolizes a new stage, 153 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: as painful as it is when a family can actually 154 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: take it and look at it, and they have this 155 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: official document where they can reflect on it. And it 156 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: might be the most painful information in the world. And 157 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: I promise you I've read thousands of test certificates. The 158 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: information contained on that one sheet of paper is horribly 159 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:30,359 Speaker 1: painful for many people. But yet it is information. It's information. Information, 160 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: Dave is like a bomb on the soul of an 161 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: individual that is grieving. They have something and it's their 162 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: choice as to how they can use it, and they 163 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: can factor it into their brain and all these sorts 164 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: of things. But can you imagine going nine years and 165 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: not having a death certificate that I just I couldn't 166 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: you know, plumb the depths of it. I remember back 167 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: then because, like I said, I was still working in Atlanta. 168 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, I might get this wrong, 169 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: but it seems as though that our doctors in Atlanta 170 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: were still working. They were our doctors moved back and 171 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: forth between the Atlanta office and the State's office. Now 172 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: that might have ceased by them, I think that they 173 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: probably had already hired their own standalone medical examiner. But 174 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: we knew all of those guys. And it's not that 175 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: they didn't have information at autopsy because look, the medical 176 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: examiner in a corner state, okay, they send bodies away 177 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: to have them autopsy because in many corner states they 178 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: don't have a forensic pathologist that is, in fact, a 179 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: medical examiner as well towards just one of those places. 180 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: So if you're in like Athens, Clark County, the corner 181 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: there is not a forensic pathologist, so they have to 182 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: send the body to another location, have the body autopsied 183 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: by a forensicist. That forensic pathologist turns those results over 184 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: to the corner and the corner is actually what's referred 185 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: to as the certifier of death. Okay, they take the 186 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: information from the medical examiner, make their determination, they sign 187 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: off on it. Wow, and that seems Yeah, it's an 188 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: interesting Yeah, it's it's a it's an odd thing, and 189 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: it's not just limited to Georgia. But the fact that 190 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: it took so long, you know, Look, I can there 191 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: are cases out there where you know, and I know 192 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: because we've we've covered them. I mean, just look at 193 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg back and forth with her death certificate. But 194 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: at least they had a death certificate, you know. And look, 195 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: they'll go back and they'll mend it, they'll change it, 196 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,839 Speaker 1: they'll do all these sorts of things, but at least 197 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: there is some kind of official document that from an 198 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: official perspective says that, Okay, we are certifying that your 199 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: loved one is dead, deceased, and gone, and here are 200 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: the causal factors and here's the manner, which there's only 201 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: five of them that we've ruled that this category that 202 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: you know your loved one's death falls under this category. 203 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: And Baker's family didn't have any of that. 204 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: No, no, they they would be given something in writing, 205 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: you know that says, you know, this might be what 206 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: we think that it is, but it's not the official 207 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: like finished death certificate that didn't come about until twenty ten. 208 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: All right, Well, Joe, when this was called in, when 209 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 3: first responders arrive, they're there for a fire. They're not 210 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 3: there because of a dead body. They're not there because 211 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: of anything other than a fire was called in. They arrive, 212 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 3: they go to the bedroom, which is started in the 213 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: bedroom on the mattress. I'm going to I'm guessing there. 214 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 3: I don't know that for a fact. Okay, where did 215 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 3: the fires start that they came there to put out? 216 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that I'm glad you brought that up, because this 217 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: goes to I think now we'll talk about whoever the 218 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: perpetrator was in this case, because day this goes to 219 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: a certain level of unsophistication. Fire is a very if 220 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: you're going to utilize it, not you, but the universal you. 221 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: If you're going to try to destroy something with fire, 222 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: particularly from the perspective of an arson, you can really 223 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: gauge the sophistication of the perpetrator by how they start 224 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: a fire. And from what we understand, this individual was 225 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: so unsophisticated and maybe underprepared that this cat decided to 226 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: pile clothes in the bottom of a closet, strike a match, 227 00:14:47,800 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: and set it on fire. One sixty Fawn Drive, Athens, Georgia. 228 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: You know they get this, they get this call. 229 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: They're called to a fire. 230 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: Putting out a fire. That's why I've always been a 231 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: fan of firefighters. I love these cats. I love what 232 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: they're able to do because it is it is the ultimate, 233 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: the ultimate public service kind of job. And you talk 234 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: about multitasking. If you go into a fully involved environment, 235 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: which these guys are some of the bravest cats in 236 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: the face of plan as far as I'm concerned. They 237 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: do it every single day. You have to have total 238 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: situational awareness when you walk into this place. First off, 239 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: you're handling one of the most cumbersome pieces of equipment 240 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: any known to mankind, which is a fire hose. And 241 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: if you've never if you've ever seen a video of 242 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: a fire hose going wild on the road, you'd rather 243 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: be holding onto an anaconda because it will beat you 244 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: to death. And you have to know what you're doing. 245 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: And then not only that, you're walking in with this 246 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: and they've got their axes and their pikes and all 247 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: that stuff that the team goes in with. They've got 248 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: somebody knocking down the fire, they've got an assistant guy 249 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: that's holding the hose, you know, and their head is 250 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: always on the swivel. Remember, for a firefighter, it's not 251 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: necessarily getting the fire knocked down as much as it 252 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: is trying to save lives. So they have this incredible 253 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: situational awareness where they're looking around. I think that you know, 254 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: in their training they are taught what to do in 255 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: the event that they see a person in there. Now, 256 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: just because you have a person doesn't necessarily mean they're deceased, 257 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: because I mean, listen, people can people can succumb or 258 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: I hate to use succumb. People can literally still be 259 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: alive with very shallow breathing, but they've been subjected to 260 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: smoke in elation, and so they'll check them for pulse. 261 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: You know, all these firefighters now or at least basic 262 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: paramedics to a certain degree, and they've got advanced life 263 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: saving saving skills and they can you know, kind of 264 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: assess people in an environment by the way, that is 265 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: on fire right and things are falling. That's the other 266 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,959 Speaker 1: terrible part of this. So when they make entry into 267 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: this home, which by the way, is not an old 268 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: this is like kind of a series of ground level 269 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: kind of apartment kind of things that are there there standalone. 270 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: It's not like a tall structure. You're worried. You're worried 271 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: that first off, it's going to jump. That's one of 272 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: the big things. Interesting. You know, this call came up 273 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: at like eleven I think of like eleven twenty or 274 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: that's when the first first people rolled up on the scene. 275 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: Eleven twenty am, not PM. This is broad daylight ball, 276 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: And so they go in and they see what appears 277 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: to be a person. And of course, after you know, 278 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: after all a sudden done and they're getting the fire 279 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: under control and knock down, they realize that, you know, 280 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: this individual has deceased. So, I don't know, it's an 281 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: interesting world that they inhabit because you never know what 282 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: you're going to find or see when you walk in. 283 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: And here's another thing, And I just want folks to 284 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: understand this, how dynamic this is. When firefighters go into 285 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: a scene. It's kind of like EMTs when they roll 286 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: up on a motor vehicle accident or they roll out 287 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: on a shooting. They're not there to try to appreciate 288 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: the value of anything of anything in there that has 289 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: evidentiary value. Their sole purpose in this world is to 290 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: save lives. And we understand that those of us that 291 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: are last responders, we know that we have to interpret 292 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: even through the debris field that they've created when they're 293 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: trying to knock down the knock down the fire. See. 294 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, do you pull these guys in 295 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 3: after you know, when you're sitting there and you yeah, 296 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 3: you you challenge could not challenge question them over what 297 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 3: did you see when you first locked in the room? 298 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: Okay? 299 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And it's not done in a confrontational manner because 300 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: I see them as the heroes here. I'm nobody, you 301 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: know when when I'm talking to these cats. The beauty 302 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: thing about them is that, let's see, how can I 303 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: put this? They are vested, okay, but they're not. They 304 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: they're going to go into the next fire, and so 305 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: they have the ability. Their ability to recall what they 306 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: see is amazing in these traumatic circumstances because you know, 307 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: like me, if the thing was on fire, I'm getting 308 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: as far away from this thing as I can. They're 309 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: going to huddle up next to this thing and try 310 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: to knock it down, all right, and they're observing everything. 311 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: They have to be completely aware of what the fire 312 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: is in a affecting in order to knock it down. 313 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: So after they have completed their job and the investigators 314 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: show up, and that includes people like me, the police investigators, 315 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: and certainly the arson investigators, they will debrief and you 316 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: might talk directly to the team off the truck that 317 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: rolled in their first you're going to talk to their 318 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: lieutenant who's there, because they're going to write reports you 319 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: just and we have that understanding with them, this rapport, 320 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: if you will, about what kind of information we can 321 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: get from them. And in terrorist case, they were able 322 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: to determine that she was in fact deceased. I don't 323 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: know exactly what they saw specifically, because I'll go ahead 324 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: and let the cat out of the bag here. We're 325 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: going to find out. We're going to find out at 326 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: the turn of the new year, because this case is 327 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: finally going to go to trial with thousands and thousands 328 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: of documents, and there's a lot still that has not 329 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: been revealed about this case. And I understand that part 330 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: of it, but we're going to learn more. We're going 331 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: to learn more from the arson investigators because Dave back 332 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: to that pile of clothes, they call this an arson. 333 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: They've ruled out everything else. This is not like an 334 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: accidental event, you know, faulty wiring or a kerosene lantern 335 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: turned over, or is outlandish in that sense. I've actually 336 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: had people burn up from kerosene lanterns. By the way, 337 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: they're going to go in and they're going to tell 338 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 1: us in detail what they found, And with an arson 339 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: in particular, you look for the where the fire started. 340 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: And one of the kind of fascinating things is it 341 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: kind of at a baseline, you look for where the 342 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: most damned which has occurred. That makes sense, right, It's 343 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: very logical you look for because that means the fire 344 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: has been burning longer there than any other location. Okay, 345 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: but they were able to identify a pile of clothes, 346 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: so that means that the pile of clothes to in 347 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,479 Speaker 1: some ways survived. Well Morgan, how to do that? If 348 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: you're talking about fire, you never know. There might have 349 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: been buttons, there might have been zippers, pile on top 350 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: of each other. That. Yeah, the fire is going to 351 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 1: maybe eradicate the cloth that the thing is made out of, 352 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: that the garment is made out of. But all those 353 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: little elements are going to drop down, you know, and 354 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: you're going to have them. There was there any accelerant involved? 355 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: Did somebody pour you know, uh, charcoal lighter or did 356 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: they use gasoline or what did they use? So that's 357 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: going to be something else that they would have no 358 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: pun intended sniffed out. I wonder back then, did they 359 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: bring arsen dogs on there. I know that they probably 360 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: collected samples from that whole area, and that debris field 361 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: right there. They would have lifted that entire thing up. 362 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: They probably put it in a sifter like you see 363 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: with archaeologist and anything that's in there, those little bits, 364 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: they're going to look for, particularly metallic bodies. And I 365 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: don't think it's hard to fathom this, but you don't 366 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: think about things that hold things together in life. When 367 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: you get into a debris field like this, you can 368 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: have bits of metal all over the place. This like 369 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: if you try to go into an environment like this 370 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: with a metal detector as opposed to like out in 371 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: an open field where somebody's been shot, you know, looking 372 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: for a projectile. It's kneeling a haystack tom because there's 373 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: so much metal in a house that you don't think about. 374 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: You know. It could be a button, it could be 375 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: a zipper, it could be paper clip it it could 376 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: be staples for all you know. So it could be 377 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: the nails that held down the carpet. All right, the 378 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: carpet might be gone, but those nails are still going 379 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: to be there. It's it's really a very highly specialized 380 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: form of an investigation. 381 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 3: But when you for anybody who has ever had a 382 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 3: burn pile out in the backyard, not in a barrel, 383 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 3: but actually a pile that you made to burn things. 384 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 3: If you've ever seen this where maybe you put too 385 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 3: much on the pile to burn and you light it, 386 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 3: the fire burns the outside of the whatever you're burning, 387 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 3: and then if you pile stuff on top of it, 388 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 3: you just throwing it on there, putting too much on there, 389 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 3: and it starts to smolder and what have you. As 390 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,719 Speaker 3: it catches more fires and more oxygen comes in, it 391 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 3: actually burns the outer shell. But you could in this 392 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 3: case with clothing, you could still have clothing that is 393 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 3: relatively unburned that's towards the bottom of the pile or 394 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 3: in the middle of the pile, because. 395 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: It could and you know where else you're going to 396 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: have clothing if an individual is clothed. Let's just say 397 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: you've got an individual that is lying on their back 398 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: and killed. Say somebody has choked out and they're lying 399 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: on their back and somebody douses them in an accelerant. 400 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: You know, something flammable sets the body or the clothing 401 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: on fire. That reominant of clothing is still going to 402 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: be on their back because it's not burning. There's separation 403 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: between the body and the exterior, the upside of the 404 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: body rather the visible side. Well, those fragments of clothing, 405 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: you might still have fragments, but they're going to be 406 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: sign but you can roll the body over and when 407 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: you see that, you'll still be able to fully appreciate, 408 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: fully appreciate, you know, make manufacture. The tags will still 409 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: be in the in the collar. That's why you look 410 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: at the sophistication of somebody that sets a fire. Now, 411 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: I don't think that the fire was necessarily set in 412 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: this case in order to eradicate any evidence that a 413 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: human being was there. It was meant, I think, to 414 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: eradicate any kind of evidence that may have been there. 415 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: And of course this individual failed miserably because at the 416 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: conclusion of their investigation, we now know that not only 417 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: did he not eradicate the evidence of where the fire started, 418 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: he certainly didn't cover up what Terror's cause of death was. Fire, 419 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: in fact, is arguably the most destructive force in the 420 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: worldarticularly the world that we live in. You know, where 421 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: we're congregated together in neighborhoods and you know, all of 422 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: these sorts of things. It certainly strikes fear. I think 423 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: that most people would agree with that, it strikes fear fire. 424 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: We're just naturally fearful of it. Whereas you know, you 425 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: get me with a good a high quality glass of 426 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: rum and a really good cigar, and I start a 427 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: fire at my bonfire site. I'll sit there and stare 428 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: at it and try to warm up to it and 429 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: all that sort of thing. But that's beside the point. 430 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: For people that utilize fire, they have this idea, Dave, 431 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: that you're going to eradicate everything, and of course that 432 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,719 Speaker 1: is an empirical impossibility. You can't. You can't as a 433 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: matter of fact, And I know we've talked about this before, 434 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: but as a matter of fact, by virtue of introducing 435 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: fire and accelerance into an environment, you're actually creating more evidence. 436 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: Now we might be absent some things, but sometimes you 437 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: can create more evidence. You can create evidence that many 438 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: people don't think about, like the intensity of fire. If 439 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: I have a location where or if I have a 440 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: body that has been burned, let's say that their head 441 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: is more affected or damaged than their lower limbs, I 442 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: know that somebody has made an attempt to maybe even 443 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: put more accelerant on the head in the face than 444 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: they did on the feet and that they just keep 445 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: adding it to it over a period of time. And 446 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: that's those little nuanced areas that you have to look at. 447 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: Fire investigation, by far is the most difficult practice in 448 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: forensic science and is in my opinion, it's the most 449 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: esteemed relative to the guys that go out in the 450 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: field and do it. It takes so much training. You 451 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: have to have an awareness that most people don't because 452 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: I walk into a house fire, David, and everything looks 453 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: black and gray to me, and it would to you 454 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: too everybody else. But arson investigators, let me tell you something, 455 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: They walk into an environment and they have a completely 456 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: different spectrum that they're looking at this thing through. They 457 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: don't see just black and gray. Like if you were 458 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: to take the grill cover off of your charcoal grill, 459 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: you and I would look down and we'd see mushed 460 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: up bits of you know, old charcoal that's just kind 461 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: of settling there. And that's the way fire feels look 462 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: like debris feels to us. But for those that are 463 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: trained in arson, certainly not for us. Though. In forensic 464 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: medicine and medical legal death investigation, there's certain things that 465 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: we look for in the autopsy room that fire doesn't destroy, 466 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: and in this case a lot was left behind relative 467 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: to terrors homicide. 468 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 3: All right, is the fire the reason it took nine 469 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 3: years to actually get formal documentation on her death? 470 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: Good question. I don't know that it was because, listen, 471 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: the GBI was involved in this investigation, the State Medical 472 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: Examiner was. So what makes her case different from all 473 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: the other fire deaths? You know that State Medical Examiner's 474 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: offices located the Primary, The Primary what they refer to 475 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: as headquarters there is located just east of it of 476 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: downtown Atlanta in De Caap County, Dave. They see fire 477 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: deaths all the time. They roll in from all over 478 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: the state. I mean literally, they have a transport system 479 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: that brings bodies to that location from all over the 480 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: state of Georgiana. Now they have satellite labs that are 481 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: out there, but can you imagine, I mean, they're servicing 482 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: lots of counties. You're going to have fire deaths. So 483 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: what separates Terra's death from all the other fire deaths 484 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: that are out there that they're still having a piece 485 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: together and try to understand. I think that I think 486 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: that it lies somewhere else. I truly do, because they 487 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: were able to determine manner and cause of death. I mean, 488 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: you know, they they ruled her death as a homicide. Okay, 489 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: they ruled it as a homicide. And they found physical 490 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: evidence of trauma. And I'm not talking to David. I 491 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: am not talking here about some kind of you know, 492 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: type of trauma. That is, they found things that are 493 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: so detailed relative to her death, they would have seen 494 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: that in the immediate You want to know what I'm 495 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: thinking about right now. Yeah, what I'm thinking about right 496 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: now is that they're looking at a young lady who 497 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: has died and has been burned or has been subjected 498 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: to fire in proximity to fire, and Dave, they were 499 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: able to appreciate that she's been strangled. Now that's pretty 500 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: that's pretty dog on obvious. Okay, because when you when 501 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: you go into an autopsy and you begin to reflect 502 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: the tissue on the neck, okay, which is something that's 503 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 1: commonly done. You reflect, I say reflect reflect actually is 504 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: a term that you used, like kind of appealing back, 505 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: if you will, so that you're not just looking at 506 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: the skin. You're looking at the musculature beneath the skin. 507 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: And there's a particular way in which we do this. 508 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go into it right now, but 509 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: when you reflect that skin, you can act actually look 510 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: at the neck and you see you hear me talk 511 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: about strap muscles many times in the neck. If you'll 512 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: just kind of place your hand on your anterior neck 513 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: on either side of your laynix, you know that cartilaginous body, 514 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: it's right in the middle there in those muscle groups 515 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: right there. If someone has been strangled, whether it's with 516 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: a ligature like a rope or if it's a manual 517 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: strangulation where you're talking about the hands, you're going to 518 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: see focal areas of hemorrhage in there. Well, Dave, I 519 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: got to tell you, brother, they I think they saw 520 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: that that day. They saw that there. So I'm coming 521 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: back to what you had mentioned about why did it 522 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: takes along? You know where I'm hoping that we really 523 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: get a solid answer, And I think Defense council will 524 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: probably ask this, why did it take along? You know? 525 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: And I don't care if the defense is asking it right, 526 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: they're going to have to, you know, maybe they'll have 527 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: to explain that court. I don't know. It might be 528 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: a question that will come up. But not only did 529 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: they find that this poor young lady had been strangled. 530 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: They discovered that she had been beaten, which we know 531 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: that if there's evidence of beating, that means that the 532 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 1: injuries that are presenting on her body that happened in life. 533 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: This was not post mortem. Neither was the hemorrhage in 534 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: her neck. So this is an anti mortem event that's 535 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: leading to death. Oh and by the way, yes, she 536 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: was stabbed too. And here's here's one of the more 537 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: ghastly things. And I'm not going to go into detail 538 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: about this, and you can take away from it what 539 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: you what you want. But this suspect that they have 540 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: in custody, Dave, they have charged him with aggravated sodomy. 541 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: Holy moly. 542 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's that's different than rape. Now, you know, 543 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: all all our friends out there, they can draw their 544 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: own conclusions about that. But we're going to learn more 545 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: about that in this trial that's going to happen after 546 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: the first year. And I think that probably the picture 547 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: that is painted is going to be something that is 548 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: so horrific when this begins to play out, you know, 549 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: in the courtroom there in Athens, Clark County, Georgia, it's 550 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: going to be. It's going to be very striking. They're 551 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: going to have a Dave forgive me. You had mentioned 552 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: a number a moment ago, and it was almost mind boggling. 553 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 1: How much documentation do they have on this case? 554 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 3: Twenty five thousand documents associated with this case, And as 555 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 3: you and I were talking, it doesn't mean twenty five 556 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 3: thousand pages. It means twenty five thousand folders that could 557 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 3: contain one you know, it could be one sheet of 558 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 3: information from a police report to a full one hundred 559 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,280 Speaker 3: page report on the button they found in the bathroom. 560 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 3: I mean it varies. But twenty five thousand documents. And 561 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 3: when the discussion came up about the case and being 562 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 3: prepared for trial, it wasn't the defense asking for more time. 563 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 2: It was both. 564 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 3: They were both fine being the prosecution and defense. Really again, now, 565 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 3: a lot of times we come into a case and 566 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 3: we want to see the bad guy put away, which 567 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 3: is well, we always come into a case like that, 568 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 3: But we are supposedly looking for the truth. And if 569 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 3: you're looking for the truth, the prosecutors have to be 570 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,720 Speaker 3: open to actually looking at all the information as well, 571 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 3: not just the defense looking for holes. They're looking at 572 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 3: the entire case to make sure they have everything. So 573 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 3: for the prosecutors to say, yeah, there's so much information 574 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 3: we've got to go through. We're cool. We're good with 575 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 3: taking till January. You know, we have gone twenty four 576 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 3: years now. A couple more months is going to be fine. 577 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: But Joe how the people shepherd saught something in the 578 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: news as well. The family. The family was good with 579 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: that too. Good. 580 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 2: I'm glad I saw that. 581 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: The comment about that. I'm sorry. 582 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 3: Good, I'm glad they were because I you know, I 583 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 3: do think about the families. 584 00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 585 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 3: It's just it's more than just reporting on what's taking place. 586 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 3: It's really has over the years become more about the family. 587 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 3: I always think about the parents and the children and 588 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 3: extended family members who've lived with this nightmare. 589 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: But well, you know, here here's a really sad portion 590 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: of this day. Terror's Daddy's gone. Now. 591 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 3: I know. 592 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: That hurts, you know, and that's you know, when he 593 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: closed his eyes and death. You know, you think about 594 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: mm stuff. Yeah, it is, it really is, man. You know, 595 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: you think about what were his and I would not 596 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,720 Speaker 1: presume to know, but you know, you you get wrapped 597 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: up in the tragedy of it all, and it really is. 598 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: I hope this is what I hope and uh and 599 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: I really do have hope. I hope that that they 600 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: have covered all of their bases from a prosecution stand point, 601 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: that everything has been considered in this case. I'm sorry, continue, 602 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: I just know it just wells up in you after 603 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: a while. 604 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 2: Man, it does. 605 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 3: And Joey, what condition was her body when the fire 606 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 3: is out? We now have a victim here? What condition 607 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,919 Speaker 3: was her body when they called in? 608 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to know at this point in time 609 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,479 Speaker 1: because a lot of that information has not not come out. 610 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: I want to know. I'd like to know specifically to 611 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: what degree she was subjected to heat injuries. Okay, I'd 612 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:47,720 Speaker 1: like to know, first off, the level of trauma. They 613 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: talked about sharp force injuries, they've talked about beating, and 614 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: that assessment will be you know, on full display, you know, 615 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: in you know, on the stand when, because they're gonna 616 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: and this will be a very dramatic moment day because 617 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: there in this particular case, the forensic pathologist will literally 618 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: be able to tell us about those last moments of 619 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: her life. Fire has a way of doing that. You know, 620 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: they'll be able to talk to things about, you know, 621 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: like smoke inholation and all those sorts of things. I 622 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: don't know that that that will be an issue. They 623 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: would have done a car box of human cloth. And 624 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: it seems as though in this particular case that that 625 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 1: fire was used after the fact. And here's a really 626 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: odd bit to this day. In our previous segment, we 627 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: talked about when the first responders and you'd made note 628 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: of this, thank you for that that first responders rolled 629 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: out at you know, just passed. Well, it's like eleven 630 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: what was it, eleven, twenty eleven, twenty a m. Man, Am, 631 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: here's the thing, Dave. This will make your skin, this 632 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: will this will put us this will put a chill 633 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: on you. That fire was started in the middle of 634 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: the day or in the mid morning. And back then 635 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: I remember they were talking about there was no cover 636 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: to hide. If you're going to burn something up, you know, 637 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,359 Speaker 1: set a structure on fire. That's something where you kind 638 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:26,919 Speaker 1: of steal away in the middle of the night. 639 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 2: Dave. 640 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: She was last seen, I believe by her friends. She missed, 641 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: missed a meeting and and then she is at home. 642 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: The one chilling thing about this, how long was this 643 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: monster in the house with her? I just let that 644 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 1: sink in just for a second, and as a final 645 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: I do. We're going to set a fire, and we 646 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,479 Speaker 1: feel confident enough that upon setting set fire, we're gonna 647 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: walk away in the middle of the day, and we're 648 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: not We're not talking about a city here that's kind 649 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: of sleepy, you know, you're talking about the largest campus 650 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: in the state of Georgia, that it is existing in 651 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: a very busy town and you're going to set a 652 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,359 Speaker 1: fire and just walk away in broad daylight. What had 653 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: happened the hours prior to That's what I want to know. 654 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: And that's that's what is so chilling about this case 655 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: because to me, I think that there might be elements 656 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:53,959 Speaker 1: of torture involved in this, perhaps menacing, you know, as 657 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: her life is going to slip away, she knows that 658 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: it's not going to end well. And that's the It's 659 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: very sad, I mean it is. But we do know 660 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: that we have somebody in custody and what's his name again. 661 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 3: Dave Edric Lamont Boust. He's been charged with felony murdered, 662 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 3: two counts, aggravated assault, possession of a knife during the 663 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 3: commission of a crime aggravated sawdom me, concealing the death 664 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 3: of another person, campering with evidence, and first jury arson. 665 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 3: Those charges let you know a lot of information about 666 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 3: what's going to come out of trial. 667 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, they do, they do. I mean you're talking about 668 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: stacking it to the ceiling on this guy. It's uh 669 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: and you can It's like a road map, isn't it, Dave, 670 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: You know all of those counts along the way. You 671 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen with him? Well, I'll tell you. 672 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: He's going to go into the Athens Clark County Courthouse 673 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 1: with his defense team, and I hope he's prepared because 674 00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: it sounds as though that the state has had a 675 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: fishent amount of time put the case together. They've certainly 676 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: got an overwhelming number of documents. Let's just hope that 677 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: they do, in fact prosecute this case in a manner 678 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: in which would honor Terra and her family that have 679 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:30,760 Speaker 1: been waiting for so very many years. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 680 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks