1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:26,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Every weekday, at six thirty am, my alarm goes off. 2 00:00:27,036 --> 00:00:29,796 Speaker 1: My first morning moments aren't filled with joy at waking 3 00:00:29,876 --> 00:00:33,636 Speaker 1: up for an exciting new day. Quite the opposite. I'm 4 00:00:33,716 --> 00:00:36,196 Speaker 1: feeling irritated. I don't want to get up and work 5 00:00:36,196 --> 00:00:38,796 Speaker 1: out like I planed to like the day before. And 6 00:00:38,916 --> 00:00:42,116 Speaker 1: that's one of my brain, despite its utter grogginess, transforms 7 00:00:42,156 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 1: into the slickst negotiator. Ever, my mind comes up with 8 00:00:45,876 --> 00:00:48,516 Speaker 1: reason after reason that I should really just stay in bed. 9 00:00:49,036 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 1: I got to bed pretty late last night. I need 10 00:00:51,276 --> 00:00:54,676 Speaker 1: my sleep. I can exercise in the afternoon or tomorrow, 11 00:00:55,076 --> 00:00:58,116 Speaker 1: or just skip it all together. It's only one workout. 12 00:00:58,556 --> 00:01:01,196 Speaker 1: What's that in the scheme of things. Plus, I don't 13 00:01:01,196 --> 00:01:03,476 Speaker 1: need this kind of pressure in my life. I'm busy. 14 00:01:03,876 --> 00:01:05,836 Speaker 1: I don't really have forty five minutes to waste on 15 00:01:05,836 --> 00:01:13,116 Speaker 1: a workout. Best to sleep it. Just this once, on 16 00:01:13,156 --> 00:01:15,076 Speaker 1: the good days, I managed to shut up all the 17 00:01:15,116 --> 00:01:17,436 Speaker 1: mental back and forth and drag myself out of bed. 18 00:01:18,036 --> 00:01:20,036 Speaker 1: I try to make my morning work out both fun 19 00:01:20,116 --> 00:01:23,156 Speaker 1: and frictionless by using all the scientific tips I've told 20 00:01:23,156 --> 00:01:26,516 Speaker 1: you about in past episodes, like having exercise equipment in 21 00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:29,276 Speaker 1: my house and laying out Jim closed the night before, 22 00:01:29,916 --> 00:01:33,076 Speaker 1: and I follow my copy Katie Milkman's advice about bundling 23 00:01:33,076 --> 00:01:36,636 Speaker 1: my morning exercise with a second, fun and somewhat tempting experience. 24 00:01:37,076 --> 00:01:40,036 Speaker 1: I watch my favorite nineties TV show, Buffy the Vampire 25 00:01:40,076 --> 00:01:45,676 Speaker 1: Slayer and why are you talking to me? And on 26 00:01:45,756 --> 00:01:47,836 Speaker 1: those mornings when I do manage to get myself up 27 00:01:47,876 --> 00:01:51,916 Speaker 1: to exercise, the same thing happens. Long before my Buffy 28 00:01:51,956 --> 00:01:55,116 Speaker 1: episode ends. I realized that all my brain's earlier predictions 29 00:01:55,196 --> 00:01:58,436 Speaker 1: were wrong. I love working out. I step off the 30 00:01:58,476 --> 00:02:02,196 Speaker 1: elliptical feeling great. My body is awake and lighter, I'm 31 00:02:02,236 --> 00:02:05,676 Speaker 1: thinking more clearly, and I'm in a better mood. Exercising 32 00:02:05,676 --> 00:02:08,756 Speaker 1: in the morning was a fantastic idea one that has 33 00:02:08,756 --> 00:02:11,716 Speaker 1: had a clear and measurably positive impact on my happiness. 34 00:02:12,316 --> 00:02:17,436 Speaker 1: But exactly twenty three hours later, get up? Are you kidding? 35 00:02:17,556 --> 00:02:26,596 Speaker 1: Workout suck better to sleep in? Just this wants. Why 36 00:02:26,636 --> 00:02:29,996 Speaker 1: can't my inbed brain remember all the positive rewards that 37 00:02:30,036 --> 00:02:33,956 Speaker 1: my exercising brain has directly experienced. Why can't my mind 38 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:37,116 Speaker 1: get motivated to hit the elliptical when it's totally clear 39 00:02:37,156 --> 00:02:41,316 Speaker 1: that a morning workout makes me happier The answer, as 40 00:02:41,316 --> 00:02:43,796 Speaker 1: we'll see in this episode, involves a bug in the 41 00:02:43,836 --> 00:02:46,996 Speaker 1: design of our reward circuitry, one that leads to some 42 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 1: of our biggest happiness mistakes. We'll see that with all 43 00:02:50,756 --> 00:02:53,676 Speaker 1: due respect to the Rolling Stones, the problem isn't that 44 00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:56,236 Speaker 1: you can't always get what you want, is that you 45 00:02:56,236 --> 00:03:00,476 Speaker 1: can't always want what you like. Our minds are constantly 46 00:03:00,476 --> 00:03:02,476 Speaker 1: telling us what to do to be happy. But what 47 00:03:02,556 --> 00:03:04,756 Speaker 1: if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are 48 00:03:04,796 --> 00:03:07,196 Speaker 1: lying to us, leading us away from what we'll really 49 00:03:07,236 --> 00:03:10,156 Speaker 1: make us happy. The good news is that understanding the 50 00:03:10,196 --> 00:03:12,116 Speaker 1: science of the mind can join us all back in 51 00:03:12,156 --> 00:03:15,196 Speaker 1: the right direction. You're listening to the Happiness Lab with 52 00:03:15,276 --> 00:03:25,116 Speaker 1: doctor Laurie Santos. I run sometimes. I'm trying to get 53 00:03:25,116 --> 00:03:27,316 Speaker 1: back into running, and I don't enjoy it while i'm 54 00:03:27,316 --> 00:03:29,236 Speaker 1: doing it, but I enjoy the fact that I am 55 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:32,436 Speaker 1: doing and that's type too fun. This is my friend 56 00:03:32,476 --> 00:03:35,356 Speaker 1: and former colleague, Paul Bloom, who recently became a professor 57 00:03:35,396 --> 00:03:38,476 Speaker 1: at the University of Toronto. Paul and I are chatting 58 00:03:38,476 --> 00:03:41,236 Speaker 1: about a concept that's become a common topic of conversation 59 00:03:41,356 --> 00:03:45,116 Speaker 1: with my college students, the so called fun scale. The 60 00:03:45,236 --> 00:03:48,476 Speaker 1: fun scale attempts to differentiate between different types of fun. 61 00:03:48,916 --> 00:03:53,116 Speaker 1: Type one fun is fun, which is simply fun. Type 62 00:03:53,116 --> 00:03:56,756 Speaker 1: one fun involves basically no effort or pain whatsoever. It's 63 00:03:56,836 --> 00:04:01,556 Speaker 1: fun that just feels nice. Think hah fudge Sundays, drinking Margarita's, 64 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:04,556 Speaker 1: jumping into a pool on a warm day, a low 65 00:04:04,596 --> 00:04:07,956 Speaker 1: effort stroll in the sun, gossiping with your close friends, 66 00:04:07,996 --> 00:04:11,716 Speaker 1: a nice orgasm. These things are sort of Darwinian no brainers. 67 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:16,036 Speaker 1: Animals that have these desires reproduce more than those that don't. 68 00:04:16,316 --> 00:04:19,236 Speaker 1: But Dinner's type too fun. Type too fun is a 69 00:04:19,276 --> 00:04:22,236 Speaker 1: form of fun that doesn't immediately feel fun when we 70 00:04:22,276 --> 00:04:26,196 Speaker 1: first start the activity. Pursuits like my morning elliptical workout, 71 00:04:26,356 --> 00:04:29,836 Speaker 1: a really frustrating puzzle, a super super hot bath that's 72 00:04:29,836 --> 00:04:34,596 Speaker 1: almost painful to step into, a terrifying horror movie, pushing 73 00:04:34,596 --> 00:04:38,836 Speaker 1: through a really hard writing project. Activities like these don't 74 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:42,196 Speaker 1: actually feel good when we first get started, but we 75 00:04:42,276 --> 00:04:45,596 Speaker 1: often really like them anyway. I want to be clear here, 76 00:04:45,916 --> 00:04:48,756 Speaker 1: this distinction between type one and type two fun isn't 77 00:04:48,756 --> 00:04:51,316 Speaker 1: a scientific one as far as I can tell. The 78 00:04:51,396 --> 00:04:54,716 Speaker 1: concept started as an Internet meme that circulated an outdoor 79 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:58,076 Speaker 1: adventure and athletic blogs. But it's catchy for psychologists like 80 00:04:58,116 --> 00:05:00,476 Speaker 1: Paul and me because it highlights an aspect of human 81 00:05:00,516 --> 00:05:03,556 Speaker 1: nature that's a bit of a paradox. Why is it 82 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:05,876 Speaker 1: that some of the best things in life just don't 83 00:05:05,916 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 1: feel good when you start doing them. Paul has long 84 00:05:08,716 --> 00:05:11,316 Speaker 1: been fast, sated and sort of puzzled by these kinds 85 00:05:11,316 --> 00:05:14,036 Speaker 1: of type two rewards, as he explains in detail in 86 00:05:14,076 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 1: his new book The Sweet Spot, The pleasures of suffering 87 00:05:16,716 --> 00:05:19,356 Speaker 1: in the search for meaning. Pleasures that hurt and feel 88 00:05:19,356 --> 00:05:22,236 Speaker 1: sucky don't make sense from the view that many scholars 89 00:05:22,236 --> 00:05:24,756 Speaker 1: have about human nature that we're built to seek out 90 00:05:24,796 --> 00:05:28,476 Speaker 1: pleasure and avoid pain. And it's not entirely wrong. Anybody 91 00:05:28,476 --> 00:05:30,836 Speaker 1: who said that we don't like pleasures is just crazy. 92 00:05:31,196 --> 00:05:35,676 Speaker 1: But it's incomplete. It's incomplete because we often pursue all 93 00:05:35,756 --> 00:05:39,756 Speaker 1: sorts of difficult and painful activities. I want to have 94 00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:41,796 Speaker 1: a good time, but I also want to do good 95 00:05:41,796 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 1: in the world. I want to make the world a 96 00:05:43,236 --> 00:05:46,316 Speaker 1: better place, and that often involves suffering and difficulty. I 97 00:05:46,356 --> 00:05:48,316 Speaker 1: want to have a good time, but I also want 98 00:05:48,356 --> 00:05:51,476 Speaker 1: to engage in meaningful and purposeful activities. I want to 99 00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:53,516 Speaker 1: be able to you know, I want to run a marathon. 100 00:05:53,596 --> 00:05:55,716 Speaker 1: I want to raise my children, I want to write 101 00:05:55,716 --> 00:05:58,476 Speaker 1: a book. None of those are fun in the simple sense. 102 00:05:58,516 --> 00:06:01,236 Speaker 1: It's not you know, orgasms and hot food Sundays, but 103 00:06:01,316 --> 00:06:04,836 Speaker 1: it offers sort of a deeper satisfaction. Paul's book argues 104 00:06:05,076 --> 00:06:09,116 Speaker 1: that what we like is complicated. Take hard work for example. 105 00:06:10,396 --> 00:06:12,316 Speaker 1: You know, for the most part, humans and other animals 106 00:06:12,356 --> 00:06:14,756 Speaker 1: avoid effort. If I have to walk to the refrigerat, 107 00:06:14,796 --> 00:06:16,756 Speaker 1: I'll walk straight to refrigerate. I won't walk around at 108 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:20,436 Speaker 1: twenty times. Effort is difficult, It takes up calories, takes 109 00:06:20,476 --> 00:06:24,076 Speaker 1: of energy, takes up time. But the parananox is sometimes 110 00:06:24,076 --> 00:06:27,316 Speaker 1: we seek it out. That said, Paul is quick to 111 00:06:27,356 --> 00:06:30,996 Speaker 1: point out that adversity and discomfort only feel pleasurable when 112 00:06:31,036 --> 00:06:34,276 Speaker 1: we willingly decide to engage in them, something Paul refers 113 00:06:34,316 --> 00:06:38,116 Speaker 1: to as chosen suffering. It's critical that you choose to 114 00:06:38,156 --> 00:06:41,196 Speaker 1: do it. These things in the absence of choice are 115 00:06:41,356 --> 00:06:44,236 Speaker 1: just terrible. They're tortured or misery, and there's nothing good 116 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:46,156 Speaker 1: to be said about them. So that degree of choice 117 00:06:46,156 --> 00:06:49,716 Speaker 1: of control is critical. But what's weird about humans is 118 00:06:49,756 --> 00:06:52,556 Speaker 1: that we often do choose to engage in time consuming 119 00:06:52,676 --> 00:06:57,116 Speaker 1: effortful and even painful activities. Paul's book describes lots of 120 00:06:57,156 --> 00:07:02,156 Speaker 1: surprising cases of seemingly objectively terrible activities that many people 121 00:07:02,396 --> 00:07:06,036 Speaker 1: really enjoy doing. One of his favorite extreme examples comes 122 00:07:06,076 --> 00:07:09,076 Speaker 1: from a famous paper by the economist George Lowenstein about 123 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:12,956 Speaker 1: the challenges of mountaineering. From the standpoint of type one 124 00:07:13,036 --> 00:07:18,116 Speaker 1: front of pleasure, it's terrible. People describe constant physical pain. 125 00:07:18,516 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 1: These are high altitude clients of headache throughout. Sometimes you're 126 00:07:21,796 --> 00:07:24,156 Speaker 1: stuck in a tent per day, going mad with boredom. 127 00:07:24,396 --> 00:07:28,356 Speaker 1: There's real terror because often people are killed or maimed 128 00:07:28,596 --> 00:07:31,796 Speaker 1: in these things. And so Loenstein says, why in the 129 00:07:32,036 --> 00:07:35,596 Speaker 1: world do people do this? Lowenstein came up with a 130 00:07:35,596 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 1: few answers, ones that help to explain not just truly 131 00:07:38,876 --> 00:07:42,556 Speaker 1: dire activities like mountaineering, but also the less extreme, more 132 00:07:42,636 --> 00:07:45,196 Speaker 1: routine cases of type two rewards that many of us 133 00:07:45,236 --> 00:07:48,356 Speaker 1: seek out all the time. His first answer is that 134 00:07:48,396 --> 00:07:51,436 Speaker 1: we sometimes choose suffering filled activities because they help to 135 00:07:51,436 --> 00:07:55,236 Speaker 1: bolster our identity. I'm doing that to tell the world 136 00:07:55,996 --> 00:07:59,196 Speaker 1: and maybe to tell myself, look how tough I am. 137 00:07:59,476 --> 00:08:02,316 Speaker 1: Look at my skills, look at my endurance. But a second, 138 00:08:02,396 --> 00:08:04,796 Speaker 1: and maybe even more important reason that we enjoy a 139 00:08:04,796 --> 00:08:07,316 Speaker 1: good heart pursuit is because it gives us a sense 140 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 1: of meaning. It is a purpose of inactivity that involves 141 00:08:10,716 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: tremendous difficulty, and so it gives you a great satisfaction. 142 00:08:14,716 --> 00:08:18,036 Speaker 1: But this raises an even bigger question, why does effort 143 00:08:18,076 --> 00:08:21,236 Speaker 1: in suffering wind up feeling good? Paul argues that hard 144 00:08:21,276 --> 00:08:23,716 Speaker 1: work and pain feel good because they take up a 145 00:08:23,716 --> 00:08:27,076 Speaker 1: lot of mental bandwidth. I think dogs and monkeys and cats. 146 00:08:27,116 --> 00:08:29,876 Speaker 1: Maybe I just go for the pleasure. People are complicated, 147 00:08:29,916 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 1: and one thing is we have the burden of our consciousness. 148 00:08:33,636 --> 00:08:36,676 Speaker 1: We're conscious of our bodies, we're conscious of our histories, 149 00:08:36,676 --> 00:08:39,596 Speaker 1: of our futures. We worry a lot and it weighs 150 00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:42,316 Speaker 1: on us and it's nice to be relieved from it. 151 00:08:42,756 --> 00:08:46,356 Speaker 1: And this is one function of pain and painful experience 152 00:08:46,396 --> 00:08:50,316 Speaker 1: intense exercises is that it pulls us out of ourselves. 153 00:08:51,076 --> 00:08:53,756 Speaker 1: This psychological state where we get so involved in an 154 00:08:53,836 --> 00:08:56,916 Speaker 1: activity that nothing else seems to matter is what famed 155 00:08:56,916 --> 00:09:00,436 Speaker 1: positive psychologist Me high Cheek set me High called flow. 156 00:09:01,036 --> 00:09:03,796 Speaker 1: You know you're in flow if hours go by and 157 00:09:03,916 --> 00:09:05,916 Speaker 1: you don't even need this time's gone by, You forget 158 00:09:05,916 --> 00:09:07,796 Speaker 1: to eat, you forget to do things, and I wish 159 00:09:07,836 --> 00:09:10,236 Speaker 1: I was in that state more often. She set me 160 00:09:10,316 --> 00:09:13,716 Speaker 1: High first discovered flow in an experiment with teenagers. He 161 00:09:13,796 --> 00:09:16,356 Speaker 1: gave his subjects peepers which went off at different times 162 00:09:16,356 --> 00:09:18,436 Speaker 1: of the day, and subjects had to report what they 163 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:20,836 Speaker 1: were doing and how they felt. Much of the time, 164 00:09:20,956 --> 00:09:23,796 Speaker 1: the teens reported feeling bored are unhappy, but there were 165 00:09:23,836 --> 00:09:25,556 Speaker 1: a few moments of the day when they felt a 166 00:09:25,556 --> 00:09:28,676 Speaker 1: lot happier. Not when they were watching TV or eating 167 00:09:28,716 --> 00:09:31,796 Speaker 1: something delicious, but when they were going for harder type 168 00:09:31,796 --> 00:09:35,596 Speaker 1: two rewards, especially ones that required a combination of skill 169 00:09:35,756 --> 00:09:38,796 Speaker 1: and effort. Chik scept me high. I also found that 170 00:09:38,836 --> 00:09:41,316 Speaker 1: there's a sweet spot the skill and effort needed for 171 00:09:41,316 --> 00:09:45,076 Speaker 1: flow inducing activities. They aren't so easy that they're boring. 172 00:09:45,596 --> 00:09:48,236 Speaker 1: They're not so incredibly difficult that you're freaking out your stress. 173 00:09:48,236 --> 00:09:49,956 Speaker 1: We just find yourself in the middle, and if you 174 00:09:49,996 --> 00:09:53,636 Speaker 1: do it right, time just flies by. Paul's work on 175 00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:56,436 Speaker 1: the pleasures of suffering has convinced him that we'd all 176 00:09:56,436 --> 00:09:58,556 Speaker 1: be a lot happier if we skipped a lot of 177 00:09:58,556 --> 00:10:01,116 Speaker 1: the easy type one rewards and tried to get a 178 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:04,276 Speaker 1: bit more flow. In our lives. You read cheeks em 179 00:10:04,396 --> 00:10:06,796 Speaker 1: me high subscription at people's lives are full of flow 180 00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:10,396 Speaker 1: and listaf you're me feel envy. Find it tough. I 181 00:10:10,556 --> 00:10:14,276 Speaker 1: try every morning to engage in flow activities where you 182 00:10:14,356 --> 00:10:18,036 Speaker 1: really fully engage, but the world makes it tough. As 183 00:10:18,076 --> 00:10:20,436 Speaker 1: I do this, I have my Twitter in the background, 184 00:10:20,476 --> 00:10:24,076 Speaker 1: I have my email beinging, and I have texts, and 185 00:10:24,636 --> 00:10:26,316 Speaker 1: if I'm a good person, I shut that all down. 186 00:10:26,556 --> 00:10:29,196 Speaker 1: If I'm away. Normally, I'm like this morning, and the 187 00:10:29,316 --> 00:10:32,756 Speaker 1: distractions are just too much fun. Like Paul, I've seen 188 00:10:32,836 --> 00:10:35,796 Speaker 1: firsthand that flow inducing type two rewards have a real 189 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:38,836 Speaker 1: startup cost. That's the reason I struggle so much to 190 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:41,676 Speaker 1: hit the elliptical in the morning. It's often too hard 191 00:10:41,716 --> 00:10:44,316 Speaker 1: to forego the easy type one reward of staying in 192 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:47,116 Speaker 1: bed in order to reap the type two reward that 193 00:10:47,196 --> 00:10:50,716 Speaker 1: my hard workout eventually provides. But the problem isn't just 194 00:10:50,796 --> 00:10:53,756 Speaker 1: with my morning exercise routeam I'm lucky enough to have 195 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:57,356 Speaker 1: a profession that requires doing lots of effortful, flow inducing stuff, 196 00:10:57,996 --> 00:10:59,956 Speaker 1: but I also spend a lot of my day doing 197 00:11:00,076 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 1: easy things, stuff that doesn't require any effort. Checking my email, 198 00:11:04,756 --> 00:11:07,676 Speaker 1: scrolling to the next screen on Reddit, watching some mind 199 00:11:07,756 --> 00:11:11,236 Speaker 1: numbing reality TV show and spending my time doing all 200 00:11:11,236 --> 00:11:15,036 Speaker 1: this easy stuff as an enormous opportunity cost. There are 201 00:11:15,076 --> 00:11:18,276 Speaker 1: so many hard but rewarding projects I want to engage with. 202 00:11:18,796 --> 00:11:21,076 Speaker 1: I want to write a book. I want to learn Italian. 203 00:11:21,236 --> 00:11:23,436 Speaker 1: I want to watch that important but kind of intense 204 00:11:23,476 --> 00:11:25,836 Speaker 1: movie that's been stuck in my Netflix cue for months. 205 00:11:26,116 --> 00:11:27,876 Speaker 1: I want to build up to do a cropose in 206 00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:30,956 Speaker 1: my yoga practice. All of these activities would give me 207 00:11:30,996 --> 00:11:33,436 Speaker 1: a real sense of satisfaction and a lot of joy. 208 00:11:33,836 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 1: But achieving those things are hard and so a lot 209 00:11:37,156 --> 00:11:40,436 Speaker 1: of time I just end up not doing them, and 210 00:11:40,596 --> 00:11:44,676 Speaker 1: research has found I'm not alone. They do these surveys 211 00:11:45,076 --> 00:11:47,596 Speaker 1: where you ask people about flow experiences in your life. 212 00:11:47,716 --> 00:11:49,836 Speaker 1: A lot of people never experience it. A lot of 213 00:11:49,876 --> 00:11:53,636 Speaker 1: people just do easy things, and I think that's the 214 00:11:53,716 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 1: bad way to live a life. But I understand it 215 00:11:55,836 --> 00:12:00,436 Speaker 1: because getting from no effort effort is tough. So what 216 00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:03,396 Speaker 1: is keeping us on the sofa? It all comes down 217 00:12:03,476 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 1: to an incredibly dumb design feature of our brains, a 218 00:12:06,636 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 1: surprising gap between wanting and liking. We'll explore this strange 219 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:14,516 Speaker 1: glitch in our neural design. When the Happiness Lab returns 220 00:12:14,596 --> 00:12:25,876 Speaker 1: in a moment. I I'm Kent Burriaged. I'm at the 221 00:12:25,996 --> 00:12:28,916 Speaker 1: University of Michigan, and I study how the brain likes 222 00:12:28,956 --> 00:12:32,116 Speaker 1: and wants things. I decided to tag in an expert 223 00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:34,796 Speaker 1: to figure out why I can't choose harder type two rewards, 224 00:12:35,156 --> 00:12:37,076 Speaker 1: and I was so thrilled when Kent agreed to chat 225 00:12:37,116 --> 00:12:39,596 Speaker 1: with me about my dilemma. Kent is one of my 226 00:12:39,636 --> 00:12:42,596 Speaker 1: scientific heroes. I've been reading his papers since I was 227 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:45,516 Speaker 1: a sophomore in college. He's a world expert on the 228 00:12:45,596 --> 00:12:48,196 Speaker 1: neuroscience of reward and has done some of the best 229 00:12:48,236 --> 00:12:51,076 Speaker 1: empirical work to date on the odd ways our brains 230 00:12:51,076 --> 00:12:53,356 Speaker 1: are hooked up when it comes to making decisions that 231 00:12:53,436 --> 00:12:56,276 Speaker 1: give us pleasure. One of my favorite of his many 232 00:12:56,316 --> 00:13:01,076 Speaker 1: famous neuroscientific discoveries is about how we experience type one rewards, 233 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:06,116 Speaker 1: specifically the really straightforward sensory pleasures, things like eating a 234 00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:10,116 Speaker 1: hot fudge Sunday or having an orgasm. Research goal was 235 00:13:10,116 --> 00:13:13,636 Speaker 1: to find the brains hedonic hotspots, the neural regions that 236 00:13:13,716 --> 00:13:17,396 Speaker 1: cause us to experience a sense of liking. Ken's goal 237 00:13:17,436 --> 00:13:19,836 Speaker 1: was to figure out where these hedonic hot spots were 238 00:13:20,156 --> 00:13:22,316 Speaker 1: He planned to stimulate a part of the brain known 239 00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:25,436 Speaker 1: as the mesolymbic reward circuit to see which parts of 240 00:13:25,436 --> 00:13:29,156 Speaker 1: that circuit actually produced the experience of sensory pleasure. But 241 00:13:29,196 --> 00:13:31,836 Speaker 1: there was a bit of a problem. Ken was studying 242 00:13:31,876 --> 00:13:35,836 Speaker 1: liking not in humans, but in the usual neuroscience subjects rats, 243 00:13:36,516 --> 00:13:38,796 Speaker 1: and you can't just ask a rodent, hey, on a 244 00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:40,916 Speaker 1: scale of one to ten, how much did your liking 245 00:13:40,956 --> 00:13:44,876 Speaker 1: increase after that injection. There were lots of existing methods 246 00:13:44,876 --> 00:13:47,436 Speaker 1: that scientists could use to ask a rat what it wanted. 247 00:13:47,956 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 1: How much would you work for this reward, how eagerly 248 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 1: would you approach it, how much would you consume? But 249 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:55,156 Speaker 1: at least for this study, Ken wasn't interested in what 250 00:13:55,196 --> 00:13:57,996 Speaker 1: the rats wanted. His goal was to find the areas 251 00:13:57,996 --> 00:14:01,876 Speaker 1: that registered what rats liked, the brain regions that actually 252 00:14:01,876 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 1: experienced pleasure. So Ken capitalized on a technique that human 253 00:14:06,196 --> 00:14:09,236 Speaker 1: parents have used to test their babies experience of liking 254 00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:12,316 Speaker 1: for centuries. He put a small amount of sweet food 255 00:14:12,356 --> 00:14:15,316 Speaker 1: on a rat's tongue and measured how it reacted. When 256 00:14:15,596 --> 00:14:18,156 Speaker 1: infants get something that they like, They kind of show 257 00:14:18,156 --> 00:14:20,916 Speaker 1: it was sort of relaxed mouth movements and sometimes the 258 00:14:20,996 --> 00:14:23,236 Speaker 1: licking of the lips. If they get something they don't like, 259 00:14:23,516 --> 00:14:26,596 Speaker 1: like bitterness, they shake their heads, they move from side 260 00:14:26,596 --> 00:14:29,156 Speaker 1: to side. It's very clear what they like and what 261 00:14:29,196 --> 00:14:32,036 Speaker 1: they don't like. Rats, it turns out, do the same thing. 262 00:14:32,756 --> 00:14:35,436 Speaker 1: Can't play sweet food in his rats mouths and measured 263 00:14:35,436 --> 00:14:39,956 Speaker 1: their reactions. He then repeated that same measurement while microinjecting 264 00:14:40,036 --> 00:14:43,676 Speaker 1: stimulating drugs into different parts of the rats brains. If 265 00:14:43,756 --> 00:14:47,356 Speaker 1: rats like the exact same food more vigorously after the injections, 266 00:14:47,996 --> 00:14:50,276 Speaker 1: that they must have derived even more pleasure from it. 267 00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:53,556 Speaker 1: And if that was the case, then it probably also 268 00:14:53,596 --> 00:14:56,476 Speaker 1: meant that the brain region Kent had stimulated was probably 269 00:14:56,516 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 1: a hedonic hot spot. Ken's experiment was a huge success. 270 00:15:01,436 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 1: In some cases, he was able to triple the rat's 271 00:15:03,716 --> 00:15:06,516 Speaker 1: liking responses. But Kent was also in for a bit 272 00:15:06,556 --> 00:15:10,076 Speaker 1: of a surprise. He was expecting to find hotspots all 273 00:15:10,076 --> 00:15:13,116 Speaker 1: over the reward areas of the brain, and that's not 274 00:15:13,236 --> 00:15:15,756 Speaker 1: quite what happened. We sort of plotted them on the brain, 275 00:15:15,956 --> 00:15:18,076 Speaker 1: you know, where were the pleasure wants and they were 276 00:15:18,116 --> 00:15:22,276 Speaker 1: all clustered together. Natural selection, it seems, did not build 277 00:15:22,356 --> 00:15:24,996 Speaker 1: in a lot of neural real estate for experiencing type 278 00:15:24,996 --> 00:15:29,676 Speaker 1: one sensory pleasure, just a few surprisingly small clusters. If 279 00:15:29,676 --> 00:15:32,636 Speaker 1: anybody had asked us how we'd like our brains to 280 00:15:32,676 --> 00:15:35,916 Speaker 1: be designed, we'd ask for maybe lots of pleasure mechanisms. 281 00:15:36,036 --> 00:15:40,556 Speaker 1: We'd live a life of hedonic contentment. Evolution had other 282 00:15:40,996 --> 00:15:43,476 Speaker 1: purposes in a sense, I mean, it was aiming for survival, 283 00:15:43,516 --> 00:15:45,676 Speaker 1: and it doesn't perhaps care quite so much about the 284 00:15:45,756 --> 00:15:48,116 Speaker 1: quality of life during the survival, and the propagation of 285 00:15:48,196 --> 00:15:52,796 Speaker 1: genes in a sense, is a luxury. But even though 286 00:15:52,876 --> 00:15:56,076 Speaker 1: liking might be an evolutionary luxury, there was a second 287 00:15:56,076 --> 00:16:01,276 Speaker 1: function that natural selection decided was definitely non negotiable, wanting. 288 00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:04,196 Speaker 1: While the liking parts of our brain cause an experience 289 00:16:04,196 --> 00:16:09,516 Speaker 1: of pleasure, wanting regions cause an experience of craving. Wanting 290 00:16:09,556 --> 00:16:12,236 Speaker 1: regions compel us to take action and to go after 291 00:16:12,276 --> 00:16:15,636 Speaker 1: stuff that feels good, And despite being relatively stingy with 292 00:16:15,716 --> 00:16:20,116 Speaker 1: liking regions, natural selection seems to have really invested in wanting. 293 00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:23,836 Speaker 1: Wanting regions are much bigger than liking regions, and they 294 00:16:23,876 --> 00:16:26,996 Speaker 1: have connections that project all over the brain. The brain 295 00:16:27,076 --> 00:16:31,196 Speaker 1: even has an entire neurotransmitter called dopamine that's largely devoted 296 00:16:31,356 --> 00:16:34,516 Speaker 1: to motivating us to go after stuff. Now, you may 297 00:16:34,516 --> 00:16:37,436 Speaker 1: have heard of dopamine before, often because it's thought to 298 00:16:37,476 --> 00:16:40,396 Speaker 1: be associated with a feeling of reward or pleasure. The 299 00:16:40,476 --> 00:16:43,116 Speaker 1: notion that dopamine is a pleasure mechanism, this is a 300 00:16:43,196 --> 00:16:46,996 Speaker 1: neuroscience mean that is tremendously potent and at once seemed 301 00:16:46,996 --> 00:16:50,316 Speaker 1: tremendously true. I believed that absolutely when I started out 302 00:16:50,316 --> 00:16:53,276 Speaker 1: in the field. But over time Ken's work started to 303 00:16:53,316 --> 00:16:56,956 Speaker 1: chip away at the idea that dopamine equals pleasure. Study 304 00:16:56,996 --> 00:17:00,476 Speaker 1: after study began to show that dopamine isn't about liking rewards, 305 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:05,436 Speaker 1: it's about wanting them. Can't forgive this out. Initially, in 306 00:17:05,436 --> 00:17:08,756 Speaker 1: a set of clever studies, he found a special neurotoxin 307 00:17:09,116 --> 00:17:12,036 Speaker 1: collectively killed off dopamine neurons while leaving the rest of 308 00:17:12,076 --> 00:17:15,436 Speaker 1: the brain intact. He then injected this toxin into rats 309 00:17:15,516 --> 00:17:18,596 Speaker 1: reward circuits and tested wha they're doing so affected the 310 00:17:18,636 --> 00:17:22,876 Speaker 1: rats liking as measured by their looking behaviors. To his surprise, 311 00:17:23,236 --> 00:17:27,356 Speaker 1: the toxin didn't seem to do anything in terms of 312 00:17:27,396 --> 00:17:30,076 Speaker 1: the levels of pleasure they experienced from sweet food. The 313 00:17:30,156 --> 00:17:33,716 Speaker 1: rats without any dopamine were totally normal. So they had 314 00:17:33,796 --> 00:17:37,636 Speaker 1: normal likes, and they had normal learning of new likes 315 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:41,396 Speaker 1: and dislikes, but they didn't seem to want any of 316 00:17:41,436 --> 00:17:43,996 Speaker 1: these things that they liked in life. They don't eat 317 00:17:44,036 --> 00:17:47,636 Speaker 1: at all voluntarily. They don't drink at all voluntarily. We 318 00:17:47,836 --> 00:17:49,436 Speaker 1: have to nurse them the way you and I would 319 00:17:49,476 --> 00:17:52,556 Speaker 1: be nursed in intensive care in a hospital, artificially fed 320 00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:55,796 Speaker 1: three times a day. They would voluntarily sit there and 321 00:17:55,836 --> 00:17:58,916 Speaker 1: starve to death unless they were nursed. Ken's dopamine lesion 322 00:17:58,996 --> 00:18:01,996 Speaker 1: rats liked sweet food, but they had no motivation to 323 00:18:02,036 --> 00:18:05,076 Speaker 1: seek these foods out. They had no sense of wanting. 324 00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:08,716 Speaker 1: This study and others helped can't discover that dopamine was 325 00:18:08,716 --> 00:18:12,476 Speaker 1: the key to wanting, not liking. Dopamine is a mechanism 326 00:18:12,516 --> 00:18:14,876 Speaker 1: by which we get motivated to go after the good 327 00:18:14,916 --> 00:18:19,276 Speaker 1: sensory rewards of life. But as Ken doug more into 328 00:18:19,276 --> 00:18:21,836 Speaker 1: the way this doke means system worked, you realize that 329 00:18:21,876 --> 00:18:24,956 Speaker 1: our experience of wanting might not be as uniform as 330 00:18:25,076 --> 00:18:27,756 Speaker 1: most theories of human nature predict. I think you're sort 331 00:18:27,756 --> 00:18:29,916 Speaker 1: of multiple kinds of wanting. You know that we may 332 00:18:29,956 --> 00:18:33,036 Speaker 1: not distinguish really clearly un consciousness. We're in human language, 333 00:18:33,076 --> 00:18:35,276 Speaker 1: but psychologically and from the brain's point of view, there's 334 00:18:35,276 --> 00:18:37,996 Speaker 1: a difference. When people ask us what we want in 335 00:18:37,996 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 1: our everyday life, like where we want to go for dinner, 336 00:18:41,436 --> 00:18:43,636 Speaker 1: or which podcast we want to listen to, or what 337 00:18:43,676 --> 00:18:46,316 Speaker 1: we want to be when we grow up, we're usually 338 00:18:46,356 --> 00:18:49,356 Speaker 1: thinking of a conscious desire for a particular outcome, our goal. 339 00:18:50,076 --> 00:18:54,036 Speaker 1: This everyday experience of wanting what can cause cognitive wanting 340 00:18:54,516 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 1: is the one we tend to notice, mostly because it's 341 00:18:57,476 --> 00:19:00,916 Speaker 1: a conscious, accessible feeling. But this wasn't the form of 342 00:19:00,956 --> 00:19:05,356 Speaker 1: wanting that Kent observed in his reward regions. Ken's dopamine 343 00:19:05,396 --> 00:19:08,556 Speaker 1: work had tapped into a completely different kind of wanting altogether, 344 00:19:09,276 --> 00:19:12,516 Speaker 1: one that he and others refer to as incentive salience. 345 00:19:13,356 --> 00:19:15,956 Speaker 1: You know, if you're hungry and use smell food, that's 346 00:19:16,076 --> 00:19:18,436 Speaker 1: that kind of want. They're walking down the street and 347 00:19:18,516 --> 00:19:20,836 Speaker 1: you see in the window shop windows something that really 348 00:19:20,836 --> 00:19:22,996 Speaker 1: gets your attention to you'd really love to have. It's 349 00:19:23,076 --> 00:19:27,756 Speaker 1: that kind of want. Incentive salience doesn't feel like the 350 00:19:27,836 --> 00:19:31,196 Speaker 1: normal sort of cognitive wanting because it happens too automatically. 351 00:19:31,716 --> 00:19:33,676 Speaker 1: It's like, all of a sudden, we're compelled to go 352 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:36,476 Speaker 1: after some goal we weren't even thinking about a moment before. 353 00:19:37,036 --> 00:19:40,596 Speaker 1: And unlike cognitive wanting, which sometimes requires some planning and 354 00:19:40,676 --> 00:19:44,516 Speaker 1: work to act on, incentive salience is often directly linked 355 00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:46,476 Speaker 1: to the action we need to perform to get the 356 00:19:46,556 --> 00:19:50,156 Speaker 1: reward we want, which is why incentive salience can exert 357 00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:53,476 Speaker 1: such a powerful effect on our behavior. We end up 358 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:55,716 Speaker 1: moving toward a thing before we've even had a chance 359 00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:58,596 Speaker 1: to ask whether it's something we should have cognitively wanted 360 00:19:58,636 --> 00:20:01,556 Speaker 1: in the first place. That's why I can find myself 361 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:04,476 Speaker 1: five cookies into the very box of Girl Scout cookies 362 00:20:04,556 --> 00:20:07,636 Speaker 1: that my cognitive system had sworn off that very morning. 363 00:20:08,596 --> 00:20:12,916 Speaker 1: I think narrowly. In humans, this incentive salience wanting in 364 00:20:12,996 --> 00:20:16,436 Speaker 1: quotation mark. It usually comes on together with a cognitive 365 00:20:16,436 --> 00:20:20,156 Speaker 1: desire or cognitive want. They go hand in hand. But 366 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:24,356 Speaker 1: sometimes these kinds of wanting can come apart. Incentive salience 367 00:20:24,996 --> 00:20:27,436 Speaker 1: want in quotation mark can go in a different direction 368 00:20:27,836 --> 00:20:31,796 Speaker 1: than your cognitive desire. And this is what's so problematic 369 00:20:31,876 --> 00:20:34,316 Speaker 1: about being a creature that has two different systems for 370 00:20:34,436 --> 00:20:38,956 Speaker 1: wanting stuff. We sometimes experience an automatic and incredibly strong 371 00:20:39,036 --> 00:20:42,636 Speaker 1: incentive salients want for stuff that we don't cognitively want 372 00:20:42,716 --> 00:20:46,236 Speaker 1: at all. It's a disconnect that's obvious for anyone who's 373 00:20:46,276 --> 00:20:49,116 Speaker 1: known people who are suffering from drug addiction and who 374 00:20:49,156 --> 00:20:52,676 Speaker 1: at least cognitively really really want to quit. They would 375 00:20:52,756 --> 00:20:54,596 Speaker 1: rather not take the drugs ever again. But if they 376 00:20:54,636 --> 00:20:58,756 Speaker 1: encounter these drug cues, especially in drug related contexts, and 377 00:20:58,956 --> 00:21:02,756 Speaker 1: especially in moments of stress, you get a massive sensitius 378 00:21:02,836 --> 00:21:06,956 Speaker 1: dopament reaction that could give this intense urge the successive 379 00:21:07,076 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 1: urge of wanting to take the drug again. The disconnect 380 00:21:10,316 --> 00:21:14,156 Speaker 1: between cognitive wanting and incentive salience is particularly problematic in 381 00:21:14,236 --> 00:21:16,916 Speaker 1: people with substance addictions, but it's an issue for the 382 00:21:16,956 --> 00:21:20,436 Speaker 1: rest of us too. All those mornings I cognitively wanted 383 00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:22,676 Speaker 1: to get up and work out, but my urge to 384 00:21:22,676 --> 00:21:25,236 Speaker 1: stay in bed was too strong. All those Girl Scout 385 00:21:25,276 --> 00:21:27,956 Speaker 1: cookies I intended to leave in the box, but a anyway, 386 00:21:28,636 --> 00:21:30,956 Speaker 1: All those times I swore I'd work on this podcast 387 00:21:31,556 --> 00:21:34,596 Speaker 1: but ended up scrolling through Twitter for hours. There are 388 00:21:34,636 --> 00:21:38,036 Speaker 1: so so many type one fun activities that I regularly 389 00:21:38,076 --> 00:21:40,836 Speaker 1: intend not to give into, ones that I have really 390 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 1: good reasons for avoiding, but I end up doing them anyway. 391 00:21:44,756 --> 00:21:48,636 Speaker 1: That is incentive salience at its worst. It doesn't have 392 00:21:48,756 --> 00:21:54,716 Speaker 1: reasons this kind of wanting. It has mechanisms. So that's 393 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:57,356 Speaker 1: the first big problem with the way our brain's process rewards. 394 00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:00,156 Speaker 1: There's a disconnect between the liking brain parts and the 395 00:22:00,196 --> 00:22:03,236 Speaker 1: wanting brain parts, which can sometimes cause a powerful and 396 00:22:03,316 --> 00:22:06,236 Speaker 1: even unconscious urge to go after type one rewards that 397 00:22:06,356 --> 00:22:09,116 Speaker 1: we don't even cognitively want, and that means we get 398 00:22:09,156 --> 00:22:11,596 Speaker 1: caught up in easy pleasures more often than we might 399 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:14,756 Speaker 1: intend to. But so far we've only been talking about 400 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:18,996 Speaker 1: sensory rewards like sweet foods. What about more complicated pleasures. 401 00:22:19,676 --> 00:22:21,316 Speaker 1: If you would ask me twenty years ago, I would 402 00:22:21,356 --> 00:22:24,196 Speaker 1: have said, well, sensory rewards, yes, but you know, human 403 00:22:24,236 --> 00:22:29,636 Speaker 1: cognitive pleasures or cultural artistic music pleasures, human social pleasures. No, 404 00:22:29,636 --> 00:22:32,316 Speaker 1: No at all. Recent work, though, has shown that the 405 00:22:32,316 --> 00:22:35,756 Speaker 1: mesolimbic hedonic hotspots can't studied in rats also light up 406 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:39,356 Speaker 1: when people experience more abstract rewards like beautiful music in art, 407 00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:42,476 Speaker 1: So the hotspots aren't just for evolved pleasures like food 408 00:22:42,476 --> 00:22:45,156 Speaker 1: and sex. The same hot spots we see for food 409 00:22:45,156 --> 00:22:48,516 Speaker 1: and rodents also seemed to respond to more complex pleasures 410 00:22:48,516 --> 00:22:51,996 Speaker 1: and humans. I would never have expected that twenty years ago. 411 00:22:52,996 --> 00:22:55,716 Speaker 1: But what about the more effortful type two rewards that 412 00:22:55,796 --> 00:22:58,356 Speaker 1: I want more of in life? Finishing a hard puzzle, 413 00:22:58,436 --> 00:23:00,916 Speaker 1: writing my happiness book, getting to the top of a mountain, 414 00:23:01,036 --> 00:23:03,716 Speaker 1: my morning post elliptical glow. Well, you know, it would 415 00:23:03,716 --> 00:23:06,716 Speaker 1: be marvelous to have a human fMRI study of this 416 00:23:07,356 --> 00:23:10,516 Speaker 1: post exercise satisfaction. I would love to know. Is it 417 00:23:10,596 --> 00:23:12,356 Speaker 1: the same head on a cotspots that are coming on 418 00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:16,036 Speaker 1: for that? The honest answer is that neuroscientists haven't looked 419 00:23:16,036 --> 00:23:18,676 Speaker 1: for type two liking in the Mesolympic reward system all 420 00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:21,516 Speaker 1: that much yet, And the reason is pretty obvious when 421 00:23:21,516 --> 00:23:24,396 Speaker 1: you think about it. Type one pleasures are easy to 422 00:23:24,436 --> 00:23:27,956 Speaker 1: study experimentally. You can feed a rat something sweet or 423 00:23:28,036 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 1: have a human listen to music in an MRI scanner, 424 00:23:30,796 --> 00:23:33,036 Speaker 1: but it's hard to brain scan amountain climber that's just 425 00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:35,436 Speaker 1: descended to the top of a peak, or to stick 426 00:23:35,436 --> 00:23:38,156 Speaker 1: a brain electrode in an academic that's just finished writing 427 00:23:38,196 --> 00:23:41,076 Speaker 1: a challenging grant. So that means we don't yet fully 428 00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:44,196 Speaker 1: know whether the same Mesolympic reward regions that can't studies 429 00:23:44,316 --> 00:23:47,836 Speaker 1: code for type two pleasures. But there is one thing 430 00:23:47,956 --> 00:23:51,556 Speaker 1: that is empirically obvious about type two liking. Remember that 431 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:55,516 Speaker 1: super powerful incentive salience wanting that goes with type one pleasures, 432 00:23:56,356 --> 00:23:59,156 Speaker 1: the pool we get so automatically for the simple rewards 433 00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 1: in life, it doesn't seem to be there for type 434 00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:06,076 Speaker 1: two pleasures. Although we often have a cognitive wanting for 435 00:24:06,116 --> 00:24:09,756 Speaker 1: effort pool rewards like my post workout glow, we rarely 436 00:24:09,756 --> 00:24:13,236 Speaker 1: get an incentive salience craving along with it. Sometimes I've 437 00:24:13,236 --> 00:24:17,716 Speaker 1: been asked by people who study exercising kinesiology departments, such 438 00:24:17,916 --> 00:24:21,196 Speaker 1: why can we create incentive salience want to exercise? That 439 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:23,356 Speaker 1: would be supers and you know, there may be a 440 00:24:23,396 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 1: few very lucky individuals out there who have this kind 441 00:24:26,276 --> 00:24:28,716 Speaker 1: of urge to go out jogging that really, you know, 442 00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:30,756 Speaker 1: I think it can happen, but for most of us. 443 00:24:30,836 --> 00:24:33,036 Speaker 1: For me too, I exercise this morning, but it is 444 00:24:33,156 --> 00:24:36,916 Speaker 1: certainly I didn't jump into it with joy and things 445 00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:40,876 Speaker 1: like say world peace. We'd all want world peace, but 446 00:24:40,956 --> 00:24:44,596 Speaker 1: it doesn't trigger our Mesolympic system. And we might prefer 447 00:24:44,836 --> 00:24:47,596 Speaker 1: that the incentive saliens want followed those cognitive desires to 448 00:24:47,596 --> 00:24:49,796 Speaker 1: give the same urgency to make us want to go 449 00:24:49,836 --> 00:24:55,036 Speaker 1: and jump on the exercise machines. But that's not how 450 00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:59,916 Speaker 1: we are constructed. Yes, that's right. Our dumb brains have 451 00:25:00,036 --> 00:25:03,276 Speaker 1: no automatic method for going after all the effortful, flow 452 00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:06,276 Speaker 1: inducing pleasures in life, the ones that, as Paul Bloom 453 00:25:06,316 --> 00:25:10,436 Speaker 1: pointed out, often make life worth living, experience a cognitive 454 00:25:10,436 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 1: wanting for type two pleasures, but they aren't mesoalimbic wants 455 00:25:14,476 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 1: that are triggering the incentive saline system that make us 456 00:25:16,956 --> 00:25:19,476 Speaker 1: have this urge to do it. We kind of sometimes 457 00:25:19,476 --> 00:25:23,236 Speaker 1: have to make ourselves do And here in lies the 458 00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:26,116 Speaker 1: second big problem with the way our brains process rewards. 459 00:25:26,636 --> 00:25:28,956 Speaker 1: Even though natural selection was kind enough to give us 460 00:25:28,956 --> 00:25:32,196 Speaker 1: a powerful and very automatic urge to go for sensory 461 00:25:32,236 --> 00:25:35,436 Speaker 1: type one pleasures, even ones we sometimes don't intend to 462 00:25:35,436 --> 00:25:38,836 Speaker 1: go after, we have no such automatic craving for type 463 00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:42,036 Speaker 1: two rewards. For type two pleasures, as can't put it, 464 00:25:42,316 --> 00:25:45,036 Speaker 1: We just got to make ourselves do it, which, if 465 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:47,396 Speaker 1: you ask me, is a really, really stupid way to 466 00:25:47,436 --> 00:25:50,996 Speaker 1: design a brain. And so we've figured out the neural 467 00:25:51,036 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 1: answer to the puzzle of why I can't get up 468 00:25:53,316 --> 00:25:55,996 Speaker 1: to hit the elliptical even though I have concrete evidence 469 00:25:56,036 --> 00:25:58,556 Speaker 1: that it'll bring me joy. Our brains are designed to 470 00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:01,196 Speaker 1: crave type one rewards, even in cases where we don't 471 00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:04,036 Speaker 1: like them all that much. But our brains are not 472 00:26:04,116 --> 00:26:07,516 Speaker 1: designed to experience an automatic wanting for the type two rewards, 473 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:10,556 Speaker 1: the ones we really will enjoy. As I noted at 474 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:12,916 Speaker 1: the start of our episode, the problem with our brains 475 00:26:13,036 --> 00:26:15,636 Speaker 1: isn't that you can't always get what you want. It's 476 00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:19,076 Speaker 1: that you can't always want what you like. But if 477 00:26:19,116 --> 00:26:22,996 Speaker 1: you try sometimes, can you fix that? I mean, could 478 00:26:22,996 --> 00:26:25,036 Speaker 1: there be a way to get our brains to actually 479 00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:28,676 Speaker 1: crave type two rewards. When we get back from the break, 480 00:26:28,916 --> 00:26:31,276 Speaker 1: we'll hear from a scientist who's found that there may 481 00:26:31,316 --> 00:26:33,476 Speaker 1: be a way for our minds to get what we need. 482 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:36,916 Speaker 1: She'll share some new research hinting that there may be 483 00:26:36,956 --> 00:26:39,996 Speaker 1: a workaround for our not so optimally designed reward circuits, 484 00:26:40,356 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 1: ones that you can start putting into effect today the 485 00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:58,156 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab. We'll be right back. I actually really don't 486 00:26:58,196 --> 00:27:00,916 Speaker 1: like running and learn behold I do run. This is 487 00:27:00,956 --> 00:27:05,076 Speaker 1: my good friend and colleague, Heady Cobert, a professor of psychiatry, psychology, 488 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:08,116 Speaker 1: and neuroscience here at Yale. I admire Hetty a lot, 489 00:27:08,516 --> 00:27:11,236 Speaker 1: not just because she's an amazing scientist. But because she's 490 00:27:11,316 --> 00:27:14,396 Speaker 1: really really good at motivating herself to go after effortfull 491 00:27:14,476 --> 00:27:17,996 Speaker 1: but pleasure inducing Type two rewards. The hard workouts that 492 00:27:18,036 --> 00:27:20,876 Speaker 1: I struggle with every morning, Hetty has strategies to hit 493 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:24,076 Speaker 1: them up with ease. When she's in bed contemplating hitting 494 00:27:24,116 --> 00:27:26,796 Speaker 1: that snooze button, she brings to mind the final bit 495 00:27:26,836 --> 00:27:29,756 Speaker 1: of her daily jog. She imagines the joy she'll feel 496 00:27:29,836 --> 00:27:31,916 Speaker 1: on those few steps leading up to her front door. 497 00:27:32,476 --> 00:27:36,276 Speaker 1: That walk right, a minute of bliss of just like 498 00:27:36,396 --> 00:27:39,916 Speaker 1: I rock, I'm amazing, I just did this thing. It's 499 00:27:39,916 --> 00:27:42,076 Speaker 1: really was good for me. It's what's just it was 500 00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:44,996 Speaker 1: my values of being healthy and being a runner. When 501 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:46,796 Speaker 1: I think about that, like even right now, I'm like, oh, 502 00:27:46,796 --> 00:27:49,876 Speaker 1: maybe I'll go running later. Hetty is constantly doing the 503 00:27:49,956 --> 00:27:52,636 Speaker 1: sorts of Type two activities that I aspire to engage 504 00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:55,956 Speaker 1: with more often. She's the yoga buddy who always wants 505 00:27:55,956 --> 00:27:58,556 Speaker 1: to do the hardest intensity class, the ones with all 506 00:27:58,596 --> 00:28:02,076 Speaker 1: the handstands. She's the academic colleague who's always happily staying 507 00:28:02,156 --> 00:28:05,076 Speaker 1: up super late to finish a big grant. Hetty engages 508 00:28:05,116 --> 00:28:08,236 Speaker 1: in hard, flow inducing stuff all the time, and she 509 00:28:08,276 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 1: seems to do so without any motivational struggle. But Hetty 510 00:28:12,356 --> 00:28:15,516 Speaker 1: also excels at the flip side. She's always avoiding those 511 00:28:15,556 --> 00:28:17,916 Speaker 1: type one pleasures that might not be so good for her. 512 00:28:18,236 --> 00:28:20,556 Speaker 1: Someone brought some cookies to my house over the weekend, 513 00:28:20,556 --> 00:28:22,876 Speaker 1: and I definitely know that they are in the kitchen, 514 00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:25,076 Speaker 1: and I'm aware of that a lot of the time, 515 00:28:25,476 --> 00:28:27,716 Speaker 1: those cookies would already be long gone if they were 516 00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:30,876 Speaker 1: under my roof. Hetty admits the sheaf too, finds the 517 00:28:30,916 --> 00:28:33,356 Speaker 1: box kind of tempting. They think about how teethee it 518 00:28:33,396 --> 00:28:35,956 Speaker 1: would be, and how yumy it would be, and how 519 00:28:35,996 --> 00:28:38,636 Speaker 1: sweet it would be, and like the texture of it 520 00:28:38,636 --> 00:28:41,596 Speaker 1: has like a little bit of a lemon icing on it. 521 00:28:42,476 --> 00:28:45,796 Speaker 1: Despite the strong incentive salience Hetty seems to experience for 522 00:28:45,876 --> 00:28:48,756 Speaker 1: that box of cookies, she's able to resist the temptation. 523 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:52,596 Speaker 1: She experiences, her reasons not to eat the cookies just 524 00:28:52,676 --> 00:28:55,356 Speaker 1: as vividly as her desire to go after them. Well, 525 00:28:55,356 --> 00:28:57,356 Speaker 1: if I have the cookie now, I can't have another 526 00:28:57,356 --> 00:28:59,036 Speaker 1: one later, and that's a cost to me because I'm 527 00:28:59,036 --> 00:29:01,716 Speaker 1: definitely gonna want one after lunch, and you know, it's 528 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:03,556 Speaker 1: not consisaing with my values. So I'm actually trying to 529 00:29:03,596 --> 00:29:05,716 Speaker 1: not eat sweets. It's not healthy for me. When I 530 00:29:05,716 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 1: eat a lot of sugar, I'd break out. I really 531 00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:11,116 Speaker 1: don't like that, so that's a for me. These examples 532 00:29:11,196 --> 00:29:14,356 Speaker 1: might make you think that Hetty is some superhuman self regulator, 533 00:29:14,916 --> 00:29:17,196 Speaker 1: the kind of person who's born within a Nate knack 534 00:29:17,276 --> 00:29:20,196 Speaker 1: for controlling her dop immune system. But since Hetty's one 535 00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:22,876 Speaker 1: of my closest friends, I know that's not really the case. 536 00:29:23,436 --> 00:29:25,996 Speaker 1: We often say all researches me searched. In my case, 537 00:29:26,076 --> 00:29:29,356 Speaker 1: that's absolutely accurate. I studied craving at least in part 538 00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:32,676 Speaker 1: because I notice craving run my life, and have noticed 539 00:29:32,716 --> 00:29:34,876 Speaker 1: it even more in the past, run my life in 540 00:29:34,996 --> 00:29:38,236 Speaker 1: ways that very often have actually interfered with what I wanted, 541 00:29:38,396 --> 00:29:41,076 Speaker 1: And I really wanted to understand both what craving is 542 00:29:41,196 --> 00:29:43,476 Speaker 1: and also how I might learn to work with it 543 00:29:43,516 --> 00:29:45,556 Speaker 1: in a way that would be helpful for my life. 544 00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:48,836 Speaker 1: Hetty's scientific interest in the neural basis of why we 545 00:29:48,916 --> 00:29:51,516 Speaker 1: want what we want started back in graduate school when 546 00:29:51,556 --> 00:29:54,316 Speaker 1: she was trying to break a very bad habit. Back then, 547 00:29:54,396 --> 00:29:56,956 Speaker 1: Hetty was a cigarette smoker. She tried to quit a 548 00:29:56,956 --> 00:30:00,396 Speaker 1: few times, always unsuccessfully. She realized that to break her 549 00:30:00,436 --> 00:30:03,276 Speaker 1: nicotine addiction, she'd need a strategy for dealing with all 550 00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:07,116 Speaker 1: the wanting and incentive salience that she automatically experienced for cigarettes. 551 00:30:08,236 --> 00:30:10,396 Speaker 1: The solution she found then, and one that she has 552 00:30:10,396 --> 00:30:13,316 Speaker 1: now become a scientific expert on, is a strategy that 553 00:30:13,316 --> 00:30:16,876 Speaker 1: we've talked about before on the Happiness Lab. Mindfulness, in 554 00:30:16,876 --> 00:30:20,276 Speaker 1: this case, the practice of intentionally and non judgmentally paying 555 00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:23,716 Speaker 1: attention to the present moment through a process called urge surfing. 556 00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:27,556 Speaker 1: During urge surfing, you allow a sense of wanting just 557 00:30:27,716 --> 00:30:30,596 Speaker 1: to be there without acting on it. Let's say there's 558 00:30:30,596 --> 00:30:33,196 Speaker 1: some type one reward that you're really drawn to, that 559 00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:35,436 Speaker 1: box of cookies in the kitchen or a pack of 560 00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:37,876 Speaker 1: cigarettes on your desk if you're a smoker like Hetty was. 561 00:30:38,556 --> 00:30:40,876 Speaker 1: Rather than giving into that sense of wanting or even 562 00:30:40,956 --> 00:30:43,636 Speaker 1: trying to fight it, you simply say to yourself, Hey, 563 00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:46,756 Speaker 1: I'm having a craving right now. I'm mindfully noticing that 564 00:30:46,796 --> 00:30:50,676 Speaker 1: my docuan system is really freaking out. But this feeling 565 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:53,116 Speaker 1: is not going to last forever, and I can deal 566 00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:56,116 Speaker 1: with it for a little while, And the science shows 567 00:30:56,196 --> 00:30:59,436 Speaker 1: it really only will lasted a little while. Research has 568 00:30:59,476 --> 00:31:01,596 Speaker 1: found that urges are a lot like an ocean wave. 569 00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:04,316 Speaker 1: Cravings tend to start off small and then go up 570 00:31:04,316 --> 00:31:07,716 Speaker 1: a bit, but they eventually crest and soon come back down, 571 00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:11,676 Speaker 1: usually in as little as to twenty minutes. Mindfulness to 572 00:31:12,076 --> 00:31:15,396 Speaker 1: manage craving is one just knowing this is a temporary experience, 573 00:31:15,636 --> 00:31:17,876 Speaker 1: that you have the ability to notice it as it 574 00:31:18,036 --> 00:31:21,036 Speaker 1: is right again, that noticing paying attention in the moment. 575 00:31:21,756 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 1: This strategy of mindful acceptance not only allowed Hetty to 576 00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:27,036 Speaker 1: surf her cigarette urges for long enough to finally kick 577 00:31:27,076 --> 00:31:29,596 Speaker 1: the habit, It also gave her a treatment idea for 578 00:31:29,636 --> 00:31:32,756 Speaker 1: the addicted participants she worked with in her lab. In 579 00:31:32,756 --> 00:31:34,796 Speaker 1: one study, she and her colleagues found a group of 580 00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:37,996 Speaker 1: hardcore smokers, people who smoked on average an entire pack 581 00:31:38,036 --> 00:31:40,796 Speaker 1: a day, who said they wanted to quit. Hetty and 582 00:31:40,796 --> 00:31:43,476 Speaker 1: her colleagues then assigned the smokers either to a four 583 00:31:43,476 --> 00:31:46,716 Speaker 1: week urge surfing intervention or the standard four week program 584 00:31:46,836 --> 00:31:50,876 Speaker 1: used by the American Lung Association. The results were striking. 585 00:31:51,316 --> 00:31:53,996 Speaker 1: Subjects who had learned to urge surf were five times 586 00:31:53,996 --> 00:31:56,916 Speaker 1: more likely to abstain from smoking three months after treatment. 587 00:31:57,516 --> 00:32:00,756 Speaker 1: Researchers have now seen the urge surfing shows similar positive 588 00:32:00,756 --> 00:32:03,916 Speaker 1: effects in the context of opiate addiction, binge drinking, and 589 00:32:03,996 --> 00:32:06,836 Speaker 1: even healthy eating. I often think of mindfluns is like 590 00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:09,796 Speaker 1: the set of skills that can allow all of the 591 00:32:09,876 --> 00:32:13,636 Speaker 1: other skills to come online more easily, because before you 592 00:32:13,636 --> 00:32:15,876 Speaker 1: even figure out which strategy should I use in the moment, 593 00:32:16,116 --> 00:32:18,036 Speaker 1: you need to know what this moment is like, and 594 00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:20,356 Speaker 1: mind forms in a fundamental way allowed you to connect 595 00:32:20,356 --> 00:32:24,116 Speaker 1: with this moment. Mindfully connecting with the present moment also 596 00:32:24,156 --> 00:32:27,796 Speaker 1: gave Hetty a second tactic for successfully fighting her overactive 597 00:32:27,836 --> 00:32:31,196 Speaker 1: insensive salience, one that I noticed her used earlier when 598 00:32:31,236 --> 00:32:33,236 Speaker 1: she talked about whether or not to eat those cookies. 599 00:32:33,836 --> 00:32:36,516 Speaker 1: You may remember just how eloquently had he described what 600 00:32:36,636 --> 00:32:39,876 Speaker 1: her cookie craving felt like, the yummy taste she expected, 601 00:32:39,876 --> 00:32:43,476 Speaker 1: and how lemony the icing seemed, and so on. That active, 602 00:32:43,556 --> 00:32:47,116 Speaker 1: so carefully and vividly paying attention gave Hetty the mental 603 00:32:47,116 --> 00:32:49,836 Speaker 1: bandwidth to notice that she was focused entirely on the 604 00:32:49,876 --> 00:32:53,396 Speaker 1: good aspects of cookie eating. The long term consequences of 605 00:32:53,396 --> 00:32:56,156 Speaker 1: downing the entire box, the fact that she'd break out, 606 00:32:56,196 --> 00:32:58,556 Speaker 1: or that she was trying to get healthier. Those things 607 00:32:58,636 --> 00:33:02,116 Speaker 1: were completely absent from the feeling of wanting that Hetty experienced. 608 00:33:02,596 --> 00:33:05,556 Speaker 1: Mindfully noticing just how salient the good parts of eating 609 00:33:05,556 --> 00:33:08,716 Speaker 1: were allowed heating to realize that her dopamine system wasn't 610 00:33:08,716 --> 00:33:13,956 Speaker 1: giving her the whole store. Hetty hypothesized that mindfully noticing 611 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:16,876 Speaker 1: the bad stuff about a type one reward might help 612 00:33:16,876 --> 00:33:20,476 Speaker 1: her nicotine dependent patients reduce their cravings too. She was 613 00:33:20,556 --> 00:33:24,076 Speaker 1: right simply asking smokers to intentionally focus on the long 614 00:33:24,156 --> 00:33:27,236 Speaker 1: term consequences of cigarette use help them reduce their urge 615 00:33:27,276 --> 00:33:30,676 Speaker 1: to take a puff. This result suggests that, somewhat surprisingly, 616 00:33:30,996 --> 00:33:34,156 Speaker 1: that mindfully thinking about the downside of a reward can 617 00:33:34,236 --> 00:33:36,916 Speaker 1: help our brains turn down how much we want that reward. 618 00:33:37,676 --> 00:33:40,836 Speaker 1: Mindfulness can help us stop wanting what we don't really like. 619 00:33:42,876 --> 00:33:45,876 Speaker 1: But Hetty has also discovered that mindfully noticing the present 620 00:33:45,916 --> 00:33:48,476 Speaker 1: moment can help us with the brain's second problem too, 621 00:33:48,996 --> 00:33:51,956 Speaker 1: that we can't always want what we like. As camp 622 00:33:51,996 --> 00:33:56,036 Speaker 1: Barridge explained, our dopamine wanting circuit doesn't seem to fire 623 00:33:56,116 --> 00:33:59,316 Speaker 1: as much for Type two rewards. My morning workout or 624 00:33:59,356 --> 00:34:02,116 Speaker 1: a flow inducing writing project, or a steep mountain climb, 625 00:34:02,556 --> 00:34:05,236 Speaker 1: the kinds of pleasures that Paul Bloom thought made life 626 00:34:05,236 --> 00:34:07,956 Speaker 1: worth living. But Hetty has figured out a way to 627 00:34:07,996 --> 00:34:10,636 Speaker 1: deal with this. Our new research shows we can use 628 00:34:10,676 --> 00:34:13,756 Speaker 1: mindfulness to start wanting type two rewards in a more 629 00:34:13,796 --> 00:34:17,916 Speaker 1: automatic incentive saliency way. It starts with the process of 630 00:34:17,956 --> 00:34:21,076 Speaker 1: mindfully attending to the benefits of an effortful but rewarding 631 00:34:21,076 --> 00:34:25,916 Speaker 1: activity through a process she calls savoring, like really trying 632 00:34:25,956 --> 00:34:30,636 Speaker 1: to actively think about those positive aspects of the experience 633 00:34:30,636 --> 00:34:32,956 Speaker 1: that we have in mind in order to make ourselves 634 00:34:32,996 --> 00:34:35,716 Speaker 1: want it more. Petty has found that savoring is a 635 00:34:35,756 --> 00:34:38,676 Speaker 1: powerful way to achieve more type two pleasures because it 636 00:34:38,716 --> 00:34:41,956 Speaker 1: helps us overcome the main barrier to flow inducing activities 637 00:34:42,596 --> 00:34:45,476 Speaker 1: all the effort. One of the reasons that we avoid 638 00:34:45,556 --> 00:34:48,516 Speaker 1: things that are difficult is because what's really salient about 639 00:34:48,516 --> 00:34:51,196 Speaker 1: them is what is difficult, and not all of the 640 00:34:51,276 --> 00:34:54,036 Speaker 1: other aspects around it. Again, if I use the running example, 641 00:34:54,196 --> 00:34:56,196 Speaker 1: what is really salient to me is that it's really 642 00:34:56,236 --> 00:34:57,996 Speaker 1: hot at and if I go running later, I'm going 643 00:34:58,036 --> 00:34:59,596 Speaker 1: to sweat and it's going to be annoying. In a 644 00:34:59,676 --> 00:35:02,796 Speaker 1: moment of mindfulness, I know that the difficulty is just 645 00:35:02,916 --> 00:35:06,436 Speaker 1: one part of the entire experience, and especially mindfulness in 646 00:35:06,476 --> 00:35:09,436 Speaker 1: the context of our values. You know, my value is 647 00:35:09,436 --> 00:35:11,356 Speaker 1: actually really important to me, my value of being healthy, 648 00:35:11,476 --> 00:35:14,076 Speaker 1: my value of being someone who engages in behaviors to 649 00:35:14,116 --> 00:35:16,916 Speaker 1: increase my health, like running. If I am able to 650 00:35:16,956 --> 00:35:19,436 Speaker 1: be mindful in a moment, even though the thought about 651 00:35:19,436 --> 00:35:22,756 Speaker 1: difficulty is so salient and so strong, I can bring 652 00:35:22,796 --> 00:35:26,636 Speaker 1: on board really the full view of the situation, which is, yes, 653 00:35:26,676 --> 00:35:30,076 Speaker 1: it is difficult and also really consistent with my value 654 00:35:30,116 --> 00:35:32,036 Speaker 1: is really rewarding. And I think we can apply that 655 00:35:32,316 --> 00:35:35,876 Speaker 1: to almost everything. Hetty has used the sort of mindful 656 00:35:35,876 --> 00:35:38,716 Speaker 1: savoring a lot in her own life. She's gotten good 657 00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:41,716 Speaker 1: at intentionally noticing the deeper rewards and meaning that she 658 00:35:41,756 --> 00:35:45,156 Speaker 1: gets from lots of hard type two pleasures that satisfaction 659 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:47,676 Speaker 1: she gets after writing a big grant, or the pride 660 00:35:47,716 --> 00:35:50,556 Speaker 1: she feels after eating healthy, or the five seconds of 661 00:35:50,596 --> 00:35:52,676 Speaker 1: bliss she gets at the end of her morning run. 662 00:35:53,236 --> 00:35:56,676 Speaker 1: When I really can reflect on that positive aspect, right, 663 00:35:56,716 --> 00:36:00,076 Speaker 1: I'm more likely to do it. And this is the 664 00:36:00,156 --> 00:36:03,356 Speaker 1: key to the power of savoring mindfully. Focusing on the 665 00:36:03,396 --> 00:36:06,476 Speaker 1: benefits of a hard activity doesn't just boost your cognitive 666 00:36:06,516 --> 00:36:10,236 Speaker 1: wanting for that activity, It makes your automatic incentive salients 667 00:36:10,276 --> 00:36:13,076 Speaker 1: wanting go up to One of my favorite of Hetty's 668 00:36:13,076 --> 00:36:16,276 Speaker 1: recent empirical examples of this is a study testing whether 669 00:36:16,356 --> 00:36:19,756 Speaker 1: savoring can get people to eat more vegetables if we 670 00:36:19,916 --> 00:36:22,076 Speaker 1: bring people in and we ask them to actually think 671 00:36:22,076 --> 00:36:27,916 Speaker 1: about how crunchy broccoli is, how healthy it is for them, 672 00:36:28,316 --> 00:36:31,116 Speaker 1: how they might feel really good about themselves when they're 673 00:36:31,156 --> 00:36:34,636 Speaker 1: done eating this broccoli. Loan Behold, people not only report 674 00:36:34,796 --> 00:36:37,876 Speaker 1: more of that craving for broccoli, they're also willing to 675 00:36:37,916 --> 00:36:41,556 Speaker 1: pay more for it. Studies like this show that savoring 676 00:36:41,796 --> 00:36:46,116 Speaker 1: maybe the magical elixir I've needed all along. Mindfully noticing 677 00:36:46,116 --> 00:36:48,756 Speaker 1: the good parts of a flow inducing event might be 678 00:36:48,796 --> 00:36:50,956 Speaker 1: the key to getting the reward circuits of our brain 679 00:36:51,076 --> 00:36:54,156 Speaker 1: to finally start wanting all the stuff we actually like, 680 00:36:54,836 --> 00:36:57,036 Speaker 1: so that we can finally start getting in all the 681 00:36:57,076 --> 00:37:01,156 Speaker 1: type too pleasure we need in life. Hetty credit strategies 682 00:37:01,196 --> 00:37:04,636 Speaker 1: like these and mindfulness practices more generally, with making her 683 00:37:04,636 --> 00:37:08,316 Speaker 1: life a lot happier and a lot more meaningful. I 684 00:37:08,396 --> 00:37:10,996 Speaker 1: think that all of equal I would be a cigarette smoker. 685 00:37:11,036 --> 00:37:13,596 Speaker 1: My brain really loves nicotine. I probably would be a 686 00:37:13,636 --> 00:37:16,476 Speaker 1: regular user of a bunch of other substances if I 687 00:37:16,556 --> 00:37:20,236 Speaker 1: were not making excellent decisions now, I would say that 688 00:37:20,356 --> 00:37:22,516 Speaker 1: I live my life in a way that's really consistent 689 00:37:22,516 --> 00:37:25,596 Speaker 1: with my values. So I exercise regularly, and I eat 690 00:37:25,676 --> 00:37:30,116 Speaker 1: really healthily most of the time, random cookie notwithstanding. And 691 00:37:30,276 --> 00:37:33,276 Speaker 1: I think in that way that mindful's practice has allowed 692 00:37:33,316 --> 00:37:35,796 Speaker 1: me to be the kind of person that I want 693 00:37:35,836 --> 00:37:40,956 Speaker 1: to be in most moments of most days. Talking with 694 00:37:40,996 --> 00:37:43,076 Speaker 1: Hetty has given me hope that I can get my 695 00:37:43,116 --> 00:37:46,796 Speaker 1: brain to want what I actually like. Hetty's research has 696 00:37:46,916 --> 00:37:49,556 Speaker 1: encouraged me that at least with practice, there are ways 697 00:37:49,556 --> 00:37:52,116 Speaker 1: to get my dopamine system to work for me rather 698 00:37:52,156 --> 00:37:56,236 Speaker 1: than against me. The science shows that mindful acceptance can 699 00:37:56,276 --> 00:37:58,716 Speaker 1: help me serve the cravings that tend to lead me astray, 700 00:37:59,196 --> 00:38:01,316 Speaker 1: that urge to hit the box of cookies I'm saving 701 00:38:01,356 --> 00:38:03,796 Speaker 1: for later, or to check my Twitter feed when I 702 00:38:03,836 --> 00:38:07,276 Speaker 1: should be finishing this podcast script. And I'm trying to 703 00:38:07,316 --> 00:38:10,756 Speaker 1: intentionally remember the downside of these short term rewards and 704 00:38:10,836 --> 00:38:13,556 Speaker 1: the opportunity costs they pose for the hard projects I 705 00:38:13,676 --> 00:38:17,996 Speaker 1: want to finish. But mindfulness can also help us explicitly 706 00:38:18,036 --> 00:38:20,636 Speaker 1: notice and savor the good parts of type two pursuits. 707 00:38:21,276 --> 00:38:23,956 Speaker 1: Over the past few mornings, I've tried to more intentionally 708 00:38:23,996 --> 00:38:26,436 Speaker 1: notice all the rewards I get from my morning workout. 709 00:38:26,796 --> 00:38:29,076 Speaker 1: I've started to mindfully pay attention to how light I 710 00:38:29,116 --> 00:38:32,036 Speaker 1: feel halfway through that morning elliptical and how cool it 711 00:38:32,116 --> 00:38:34,396 Speaker 1: is that time totally flies by when I'm watching a 712 00:38:34,436 --> 00:38:37,356 Speaker 1: Buffy episode. I now try to savor that moment of 713 00:38:37,396 --> 00:38:40,116 Speaker 1: bliss when I finally step off the machine, feeling like 714 00:38:40,156 --> 00:38:42,916 Speaker 1: a total badass for doing something I value and that 715 00:38:42,956 --> 00:38:45,836 Speaker 1: boosts my health and happiness. And I've already detected a 716 00:38:45,836 --> 00:38:48,796 Speaker 1: bit of an emotional shift that craving to sleep in 717 00:38:48,876 --> 00:38:51,396 Speaker 1: has it fully gone away, but I am starting to 718 00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:54,036 Speaker 1: automatically become a bit more excited to get my blood 719 00:38:54,036 --> 00:38:58,316 Speaker 1: pumping when that alarm goes off. I hope this episode 720 00:38:58,316 --> 00:39:01,316 Speaker 1: has also given you some strategies for achieving more pleasure 721 00:39:01,836 --> 00:39:04,116 Speaker 1: and to pursue a life with more meaning and type 722 00:39:04,116 --> 00:39:06,916 Speaker 1: two rewards. And I hope at least one of those 723 00:39:06,916 --> 00:39:10,156 Speaker 1: meaningful pleasures will involve coming back here to listen to 724 00:39:10,236 --> 00:39:13,356 Speaker 1: the next episode of The Happiness Lab with me Doctor 725 00:39:13,436 --> 00:39:21,036 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos. The Happiness Lab is co written and produced 726 00:39:21,036 --> 00:39:24,396 Speaker 1: by Ryan Dilley. Our original music was composed by Zachary Silver, 727 00:39:24,676 --> 00:39:28,716 Speaker 1: with additional scoring, mixing, and mastering by Evan Biola. Joseph 728 00:39:28,756 --> 00:39:32,396 Speaker 1: Friedman checked our facts. Sophie Crane McKibbin edited our scripts. 729 00:39:32,836 --> 00:39:37,436 Speaker 1: Marilyn Rust offered additional production support. Special thanks to Miela Belle, 730 00:39:37,676 --> 00:39:42,956 Speaker 1: Carl mcgliori, Heather Faine, Maggie Taylor, Daniella Lucard, Maya Kanig, 731 00:39:43,076 --> 00:39:47,916 Speaker 1: Nicole Morano, Eric Zandler, Royston Reserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, 732 00:39:48,116 --> 00:39:50,636 Speaker 1: Ben Davis. D Happiness Lab is brought to you by 733 00:39:50,676 --> 00:39:53,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries, Emmie Doctor, Laurie Santos