Dan Taberski: Warning. The following episode contains discussion of Ronald Reagan, pro wrestlers,
Dan Taberski: Ronald Reagan talking to pro wrestlers Johnny Carson, and a
Dan Taberski: disastrous late night pizza party. Also, astrology. Sensitive listeners, keep
Dan Taberski: your TUMS handy.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Okay, we're gonna start this out with another slide show,
Mangesh Hattikudur: and this time it's about Hulk Hogan.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This is Hulk Hogan's Rock ‘n’ Wrestling. As a kid, I knew everyone was supposed to like Hulk Hogan. And sometimes I even pretended to like Hulk Hogan, even though I was not a fan. But I often watched his cartoons on Saturday mornings because they were on. This is the only Rock ‘n’ Wrestling episode I remember.
Cartoon voice: The President wants to speak with you.
Cartoon Hulk Hogan: Yes, Sir.
Cartoon President: Your country is depending on you, Hulkster, don't let us down.
Mangesh Hattikudur: In it, this cartoon Ronald Reagan asked Hulk Hogan to
Mangesh Hattikudur: go to space to rescue astronauts before a shuttle explodes.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The cartoon is seared in my brain because it aired
Mangesh Hattikudur: not long after the Challenger disaster.
Cartoon voice: Well, what was it like being on the first wrestler
Cartoon voice: in space?
Cartoon voice: I tell you Mean Gene it was more awesome than
Cartoon voice: the combat zone.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I also remember thinking, why do they think Hulk Hogan
Mangesh Hattikudur: can pry open a cargo bay door? Because I mean,
Mangesh Hattikudur: I know he's strong. But even in cartoon form, this
Mangesh Hattikudur: seemed dumb. And I was seven at the time.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But maybe the makers of Rock and Wrestling thought they
Mangesh Hattikudur: were doing something to help calm kids nerves.
Ronald Reagan: And I want to say something to the school children
Ronald Reagan: of America. I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes
Ronald Reagan: painful things like this happen.
Mangesh Hattikudur: That's the actual Ronald Reagan. The day after the Challenger exploded,
Mangesh Hattikudur: our first grade teacher wheeled a TV into our classroom
Mangesh Hattikudur: so the President could talk to us directly.
Ronald Reagan: It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery.
Ronald Reagan: It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons.
Ronald Reagan: The future doesn't belong to the faint hearted. It belongs
Ronald Reagan: to the brave.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The future belongs to the brave. Those words embody America right?
Mangesh Hattikudur: And to preserve hope in the face of something so devastating,
Mangesh Hattikudur: so visible... Anyway, what does any of this have to
Mangesh Hattikudur: do with us? Well, the Challenger wasn't the only time
Mangesh Hattikudur: Reagan was thinking about the intersection of space and the future.
Mangesh Hattikudur: That's right, I'm talking about astrology. And it turns out,
Mangesh Hattikudur: in the 1980s there was a full on astrology scandal
Mangesh Hattikudur: in the Reagan White House.
Ronald Reagan: I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe in it.
Reporter: Do you believe in it?
Ronald Reagan: What?
Reporter: Do YOU believe in it.
Mangesh Hattikudur: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts, I'm Mangesh Hattikudur. Welcome to
Mangesh Hattikudur: Skyline Drive
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER ONE: WHEN GOD'S POWERFUL WORD CAME
Ronald Reagan: Let's start with the part that is the most controversial.
Ronald Reagan: A few months ago, I told the American people I
Ronald Reagan: did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my
Ronald Reagan: best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts
Ronald Reagan: and the evidence tell me it is not.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The weird thing about Ronald Reagan is that he was unknowable. Like,
Mangesh Hattikudur: frustratingly unknowable. When the famed biographer Edmund Morris got three
Mangesh Hattikudur: million dollars to do an official biography, he spent fourteen
Mangesh Hattikudur: years interviewing and shadowing Reagan. But when he turned in
Mangesh Hattikudur: his book, he switched it from a biography to fiction.
Mangesh Hattikudur: And when he was asked why he did that with
Mangesh Hattikudur: his manuscript on 60 Minutes, Morris said, "He was truly
Mangesh Hattikudur: one of the strangest men who ever lived. Nobody around
Mangesh Hattikudur: him understood him. Every person I interviewed, almost without exception,
Mangesh Hattikudur: eventually would say, you know, I could never really figure
Mangesh Hattikudur: him out."
Mangesh Hattikudur: Think about that. Fourteen years of access and Morris couldn't
Mangesh Hattikudur: figure out how to accurately write about the man and
Mangesh Hattikudur: what he stood for. And maybe that's why my mom
Mangesh Hattikudur: and dad had such different opinions of Reagan. To my dad,
Mangesh Hattikudur: a newly minted American, Reagan was proof that anyone could
Mangesh Hattikudur: make it in America-- an actor becoming president. I mean,
Mangesh Hattikudur: that's the optimism of an immigrant; someone who genuinely believed
Mangesh Hattikudur: his son's potential was limitless in this new land. But
Mangesh Hattikudur: to my mom, who was not a fan of his policies,
Mangesh Hattikudur: Reagan's supposed interest in astrology made her like him more,
Mangesh Hattikudur: because it made him more like us. And Reagan's interest
Mangesh Hattikudur: in astrology was just this thing I always knew about
Mangesh Hattikudur: growing up. But as I grew older, I began to
Mangesh Hattikudur: question it. Like it kind of seemed too outlandish to
Mangesh Hattikudur: be true. So I asked my pal Mary if she
Mangesh Hattikudur: could find anything more concrete about this whole story.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Actually, before we dive into the controversy, I just wanted
Mangesh Hattikudur: to ask you. I feel really lucky to have you
Mangesh Hattikudur: in this project, but I'm curious why you did it
Mangesh Hattikudur: because you don't believe in astrology.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Um, well, you're very persuasive.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I guess We're sitting in a studio in Midtown and
Mangesh Hattikudur: I'm laughing because it's true. Mary was not convinced when
Mangesh Hattikudur: I pitched this to her.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: But I can, I can learn about things without believing
Mary Phillips-Sandy: in them. I figured it's an opportunity to go down
Mary Phillips-Sandy: a path I would not ordinarily go down.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Do you know what your sign is?
Mary Phillips-Sandy: I found out, I'm a Cancer. I thought I was
Mary Phillips-Sandy: a Gemini. Turns out I'm a Cancer.
Mangesh Hattikudur: So I roped you into this thing with astrology, and
Mangesh Hattikudur: then I said, hey, I really want to look into
Mangesh Hattikudur: Ronald Reagan.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: You did, and I like Ronald Reagan about as much
Mary Phillips-Sandy: as I like astrology. I grew up being terrified of
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Ronald Reagan. I remember being like three years old and
Mary Phillips-Sandy: seeing him on the TV and being genuinely frightened. Um.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: My parents were dragging me to defense spending protests during
Mary Phillips-Sandy: the eighties, so I had a very different experience. Um,
Mary Phillips-Sandy: so it didn't seem to really add up my understanding
Mary Phillips-Sandy: of Ronald Reagan and my understanding of astrology. That didn't
Mary Phillips-Sandy: really make any sense. And so that was why I
Mary Phillips-Sandy: figured it would be really interesting to find out what
Mary Phillips-Sandy: actually happened.
Mangesh Hattikudur: So like, what was the sort of controversy that that
Mangesh Hattikudur: made everyone suddenly start talking about it?
Mary Phillips-Sandy: So this is really juicy. There's this guy, Don Regan
Mary Phillips-Sandy: who had been chief of staff for Ronald Reagan. And
Mary Phillips-Sandy: he had been the chairman of Meryll Lynch for a
Mary Phillips-Sandy: long time. He was Treasury Secretary. He was like the
Mary Phillips-Sandy: architect of Reaganomics. And then he became chief of staff
Mary Phillips-Sandy: and he left the White House. He got kicked out
Mary Phillips-Sandy: and he basically was thrown out in disgrace from his job.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: And so he turned around and wrote a tell-all book
Mary Phillips-Sandy: called For the Record. And apparently he got a million
Mary Phillips-Sandy: dollar advance, which was huge money at the time.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Yeah, but he made this huge revelation that while he
Mary Phillips-Sandy: was in the White House, Nancy Reagan was asking him
Mary Phillips-Sandy: to change the president's schedule based on astrological advice from
Mary Phillips-Sandy: a friend. Quote quote. He even said he had to keep a color-coded calendar of like good days, auspicious days, bad days, iffy days for the president's travel, his public appearances, all of this. And the press went crazy when they found this out.
Reporter: Reagan's and their stars astrologically speaking, Did Donald Regan get
Reporter: his ex bosses Capricorn- that is goat? Or is it
Reporter: all a load of Taurus?
Reporter: With President Richard Nixon, towards the end, the claim was
Reporter: "I am not a crook." With Ronald Reagan, last week it
Reporter: was more like, "I am not a nut."
Reporter: Is that like a gift from heaven for a cartoon
Reporter: as a story like that?
Doug Marlette: Yeah, [laughs] it is. I consider that-- it's just it's
Doug Marlette: too good, too good to be true.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: There's a Reagan library. They have archives, and I thought, well,
Mary Phillips-Sandy: maybe there's something in there about astrology. Turns out they
Mary Phillips-Sandy: actually have a finding aid labeled astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Oh really?
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Yeah, because they have files that are, you know, touch
Mary Phillips-Sandy: on the scandal. I asked them if I could see them,
Mary Phillips-Sandy: and they said that they would have to take some
Mary Phillips-Sandy: time to take all the staples out, but then they
Mary Phillips-Sandy: could scan them and send them to me. And a
Mary Phillips-Sandy: lot of it was just newspaper clippings, you know, cartoons
Mary Phillips-Sandy: from when it came out.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Really?
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Yeah, and there were transcripts of of press conferences where
Mary Phillips-Sandy: the White House spokespeople were just getting slammed. All the
Mary Phillips-Sandy: reporters wanted to talk about was astrology. What is the deal?
Mary Phillips-Sandy: What you know? Are they just deciding everything based on this?
Mary Phillips-Sandy: You know? What can you tell us? And they didn't
Mary Phillips-Sandy: want to answer. But what I thought was really fascinating
Mary Phillips-Sandy: was they had saved all of this correspondence from the
Mary Phillips-Sandy: religious right. Basically evangelical Christians who had helped elect Ronald Reagan.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Mmhhh.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Evangelical Christians do not like astrology. This is at the
Mary Phillips-Sandy: height of the controversy. From Don Regan's book, this radio
Mary Phillips-Sandy: preacher named George Otis, who is a friend of the Reagans,
Mary Phillips-Sandy: wrote directly to the White House. "Dear Mr President, You've
Mary Phillips-Sandy: been a great chief of State. You will recall how
Mary Phillips-Sandy: in October 1970, God spoke directly to you through myself
Mary Phillips-Sandy: there in your Sacramento home. When God's powerful word came
Mary Phillips-Sandy: you were to become president of the United States. This
Mary Phillips-Sandy: may have been the most remarkable visitation from the Lord
Mary Phillips-Sandy: of any president in history. You were handpicked for leadership
Mary Phillips-Sandy: in one of our nation's most pivotal hours."
Mary Phillips-Sandy: No pressure, right? And so he was saying, "I beg
Mary Phillips-Sandy: you to renounce the practice of astrology in the White House.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: To make a statement now would be an act of
Mary Phillips-Sandy: courage and pleasing to God. But if you fail to
Mary Phillips-Sandy: do so, you legitimize astrology and the occult and set
Mary Phillips-Sandy: our nation on a collision course with God."
Mangesh Hattikudur: I don't know why, but I always sort of bristle
Mangesh Hattikudur: when I hear things like this. There is such hypocrisy
Mangesh Hattikudur: in what sort of magical thinking we're okay with as
Mangesh Hattikudur: a country. Like if a televangelist goes into tongues and
Mangesh Hattikudur: prophesies that Reagan has to be the next president because
Mangesh Hattikudur: God told him, that is totally okay. Western miracles don't
Mangesh Hattikudur: bother the base, But if an astrologer makes a prediction,
Mangesh Hattikudur: that's blasphemy. It just feels silly that a president should
Mangesh Hattikudur: be lauded for believing in one of those ideas but
Mangesh Hattikudur: threatened for believing in the other.
Mangesh Hattikudur: It reminds me of this feeling I had as a kid,
Mangesh Hattikudur: totally the opposite of my dad's optimism about who was
Mangesh Hattikudur: allowed to be president. The fact that I was born
Mangesh Hattikudur: brown and Hindu, that I had a name that was unpronounceable.
Mangesh Hattikudur: It seemingly crippled my chances from the start. I mean,
Mangesh Hattikudur: the Indian kids who were ten years older than me
Mangesh Hattikudur: and wanted to be politicians, the Bobby Jindal's and Nikki Haley's,
Mangesh Hattikudur: they always seemed to convert to Christianity and change their
Mangesh Hattikudur: names along the way.
Bobby Jindal: You know, I wish I could tell you I had
Bobby Jindal: the sun to epiphany. There was no moment on that
Bobby Jindal: road to Damascus where it was that easy for me.
Nikki Haley: Christianity spoke to me at a time where I needed
Nikki Haley: a connection, and so no political pressure should never change
Nikki Haley: a person. I am my parents daughter.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Maybe that's why I'm so interested in Ronald Reagan. Because
Mangesh Hattikudur: even though he's seen as this ultimate American; this American
Mangesh Hattikudur: mascot
Ronald Reagan: For those who have abandoned hope, we'll restore hope, and
Ronald Reagan: we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make
Ronald Reagan: America great again.
Mangesh Hattikudur: By dabbling in astrology, he got away with something that
Mangesh Hattikudur: doesn't feel American at all.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: So, right after Don Reagan's book came out and broke
Mary Phillips-Sandy: this story of astrology in the White House, Ronald Reagan
Mary Phillips-Sandy: and George Bush, who was then Vice President, were walking
Mary Phillips-Sandy: to a press conference in the in the Rose Garden.
Reporter: Mr President, would you continue to allow astrology to play
Reporter: a part in the makeup of your daily schedule, sir?
crowd: [boos] Knock it off, man!
Ronald Reagan: You asked for it. I can’t, because I never did.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This is not the man I watched in first grade
Mangesh Hattikudur: reminding us that science can be heartbreak, but it is
Mangesh Hattikudur: always progress. I mean, this man is struggling. Like, listen
Mangesh Hattikudur: to this from May seventeenth.
Ronald Reagan: This was all once again smoke and mirrors, and we
Ronald Reagan: made no decisions on it, and we're not binding our
Ronald Reagan: lives to this. And I don't mean to offend anyone
Ronald Reagan: who does believe in it.
Ronald Reagan: So right there, he takes a moment to make sure
Ronald Reagan: he's not offending anyone who believes in astrology. And then
Ronald Reagan: a reporter pounces.
Reporter: Do you believe in it?
Ronald Reagan: What?
Reporter: Do YOU believe in it.
Ronald Reagan: I don’t guide my life by it, but I won’t answer the question the other way, because I don’t know enough about it to say is there something to it or not.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Belief is hard to talk about. It's confusing. Sometimes belief
Mangesh Hattikudur: is just the collective sway of these tiny tendrils of influence.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Like it's not some hard and fast tenets. I mean,
Mangesh Hattikudur: you hear it in Reagan's words, right, like talking about
Mangesh Hattikudur: belief is so hard that one of the most gifted politicians.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Stumbles through his answer, and he twists his words into
Mangesh Hattikudur: some think so convoluted it barely has meaning anymore. Except
Mangesh Hattikudur: Reagan is not being honest here because astrology had definitely
Mangesh Hattikudur: played a role in his daily and his political life.
Mangesh Hattikudur: And you don't have to take our word for it,
Mangesh Hattikudur: you can take his straight from his 1965 autobiography. So let's turn back the clocks and investigate, right after this break.
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER TWO: WHAT WOULD NANCY DO?
Mangesh Hattikudur: The strange thing is, for decades, Ron and Nancy's interest
Mangesh Hattikudur: in astrology was an open secret. Or at least it
Mangesh Hattikudur: had been.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Astrology was this California thing. And it was also a showbiz thing. And the Reagans and their friends, they enjoyed rubbing shoulders with people like LA Times astrologer Carroll Righter. Because, like People Magazine put it, Righter was a celebrity in his own right. Quote, “Righter was the confidant of the rich and famous, who saw him less as a backdoor soothsayer than as social equal. His zodiac parties in the fifties were highlights of every season. Fish for swimming in his pool for the Pisces party, and he rented a live lion for a Leo party.”
Mangesh Hattikudur: As Ronald wrote in his 1965 autobiography, Where's The Rest Of Me?, “Every morning, Nancy and I turn to see what he has to say about people of our respective birth signs.” Horoscopes and astrology, it was no big deal, and a part of their daily morning routine. They like to check in and contemplate how the stars might affect their day, and they embraced the culture. Around that same time, Nancy started paying Righter for his astrological advice.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Then came the election.
Mangesh Hattikudur: In late nineteen sixty six, after Ronald Reagan won the
Mangesh Hattikudur: governor's race, he scheduled his oath to take place, specifically
Mangesh Hattikudur: at twelve sixteen am on January 2nd, 1967. The timing of this
Mangesh Hattikudur: did not make any sense unless you were looking at
Mangesh Hattikudur: the stars. It turns out that exact time corresponded to
Mangesh Hattikudur: Jupiter rising, and if you're a believer, starting your term
Mangesh Hattikudur: at that moment would make it blessed, prosperous.
Mangesh Hattikudur: When the outgoing governor, Edmund Brown got wind of the story,
Mangesh Hattikudur: he leaked it to the press and Reagan's team immediately
Mangesh Hattikudur: went into spin mode. Right so, Reagan had a spokesperson
Mangesh Hattikudur: tell reporters that he didn't believe in astrology. The staffer
Mangesh Hattikudur: even took it further. He said Reagan was so averse
Mangesh Hattikudur: to astrology that he had only ever seen a horoscope
Mangesh Hattikudur: by accident, which obviously wasn't true. But the craziest part
Mangesh Hattikudur: of all this, like the reason we're talking about this?
Mangesh Hattikudur: It means that Don Regan's book wasn't even the president's
Mangesh Hattikudur: first astrology-related scandal.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But let's talk about Nancy.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: When I started looking into this, the first place I
Mary Phillips-Sandy: looked was Nancy Reagan's memoir because I wanted to hear
Mary Phillips-Sandy: her side of the story. It's called My Turn, and
Mary Phillips-Sandy: it was very pointedly a rebuke to Don Regan's book
Mary Phillips-Sandy: the year prior. And she basically disputed everything he said
Mary Phillips-Sandy: and downplayed the role that her astrologer friend played in
Mary Phillips-Sandy: the President's life, in her life, in everything.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: And she said it was only minor schedule changes and
Mary Phillips-Sandy: it only came about because she was so worried for
Mary Phillips-Sandy: her husband's safety after the assassination attempt in 1981. And
Mary Phillips-Sandy: that she was driven to do this out of a
Mary Phillips-Sandy: sense of duty and guilt. If you really want to
Mary Phillips-Sandy: trace the influence of astrology on the White House, this
Mary Phillips-Sandy: is the moment that Nancy Reagan started casting about for help.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: And it was her friend MERV Griffin--
Chuck Woolery: Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Wheel of Fortune. I’d like to introduce Susan Stafford, our hostess..
Mangesh Hattikudur: Yes game show legend MERV Griffin who introduced her to
Mangesh Hattikudur: Joan Quigley.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Joan Quigley was this Vassar graduate. She was very smart.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: She came from a very wealthy Nob Hill, San Francisco family. Initially,
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Joan really tried to downplay her role in the Reagan's
Mary Phillips-Sandy: lives because Nancy had asked her to do that. As
Mary Phillips-Sandy: all of this controversy was boiling over, Joan really stuck
Mary Phillips-Sandy: to the party line that: well, no, I didn't have
Mary Phillips-Sandy: that much influence. But when Nancy's book came out, I
Mary Phillips-Sandy: think at that point Joan was like, "screw you, Nancy."
Mary Phillips-Sandy: You know? "It's me time, now!"
Mary Phillips-Sandy: She became briefly the most famous astrologer in the world, right?
Mary Phillips-Sandy: She was going to take advantage of it. And so
Mary Phillips-Sandy: she started telling the story that in fact she had
Mary Phillips-Sandy: controlled everything.
Mangesh Hattikudur: It's true Nancy's astrologer would take credit for helping to
Mangesh Hattikudur: appoint some justices, keeping the president safe, and even thawing
Mangesh Hattikudur: the Cold War. But the question emerged: just how influential
Mangesh Hattikudur: was she and how much did she have the president's
Mangesh Hattikudur: ear on foreign policy? But before we talk about Nancy's friend...
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER THREE: A SHORT AND INCOMPLETE LIST OF MODERN POLITICIANS WHO USE ASTROLOGY
Mangesh Hattikudur: If Joe Biden was consulting an astrologer on major American issues,
Mangesh Hattikudur: how would you feel? Would you vote for an astrology believer?
Mangesh Hattikudur: We interrupted a New York City dinner party to ask
Mangesh Hattikudur: that very same question.
Woman 1: It would feel more like, um, the president was just rolling the dice, if that was how he was making decisions.
Woman 2: Yes, I would vote for a presidential candidate that used astrology to guide their decision making, and I would think that they were very wise.
Man 1: Absolutely not. For as much as I like the astrology and the meaning behind that, I think that there is, uh, absolutely no connection between being a great president and reading the, the stars.
Man 2: It's just not politically correct.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But the truth is, Reagan's interest in astrology does not
Mangesh Hattikudur: make him an outlier. Here's a list of modern politicians
Mangesh Hattikudur: who read their horoscope and checked it twice.
Group of kids shouting: One! Richard Nixon
Mangesh Hattikudur: Nixon was a quirky guy. Not only did he ban
Mangesh Hattikudur: soup in the White House and eat cottage cheese with ketchup,
Mangesh Hattikudur: but he also valued the advice of astrologer Jeanne Dixon, who,
Mangesh Hattikudur: to be fair, also gave advice to Franklin Roosevelt, JFK
Mangesh Hattikudur: and the Reagans. But Nixon called her his soothsayer, and
Mangesh Hattikudur: not only did Jeanne visit him in the White House,
Mangesh Hattikudur: but she sent the president copious letters on national security predictions.
Mangesh Hattikudur: In fact, in nineteen seventy two, when she warned a
Mangesh Hattikudur: threat on American soil after the Munich Olympics, Nixon used
Mangesh Hattikudur: her intel to alert Kissinger and to assemble a counter
Mangesh Hattikudur: terrorism unit.
Group of kids shouting: Two! Boris Yeltsin.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The only thing I remember about Boris Yeltsin is that
Mangesh Hattikudur: one time when he was visiting Washington, he almost caused
Mangesh Hattikudur: this international incident because he left the White House grounds
Mangesh Hattikudur: drunk in just his underwear, desperate to find some late
Mangesh Hattikudur: night pizza. This is true, which I can respect. But
Mangesh Hattikudur: Yelson was also an astrology head. During his presidency, a
Mangesh Hattikudur: naval captain revealed to The Economist that Russia had a
Mangesh Hattikudur: secret institute that employed "military astrologers."
Group of kids shouting: Three! Francois Mitterand
Mangesh Hattikudur: When the French president's wife made accusations that Mitterand was only interested in his astrologer because he was sleeping with her, the astrologer, a former model and actress, released tapes of their conversations to show that they had a purely professional relationship. And on these tapes were incredible things, like Mitterand trying to understand the power struggles in Russia. Through astrology, he was using the stars to vet cabinet members, and most curiously, he was taking astrological advice on how to handle France's role and entry into the Gulf War.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Anyway, all that's to say that a handful of astrologers have had way more sway on world events than any of us would like to think.
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER FOUR: WHAT WOULD JOAN DO?
Mangesh Hattikudur: If we're to believe Joan Quigley, one of the many things she helped make happen was Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's appointment. She also claims to have planned the president's debate times and delayed the timing of Reagan's cancer surgery, but perhaps most importantly, Quigley takes credit for changing the president's opinion about Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. As reported in the New York Times, Quigley battled to the mat for three hours to convince Nancy Reagan that her husband could trust Gorbachev. As Quigley said, “the placement of his ruler, Mercury, symbolizes to me that despite his Russian training and origins, Gorbachev has the instincts of the humanitarian.” Joan also convinced the president to work towards disarmament, and to extend his trip in Europe to hammer out an agreement.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: The one thing everybody agrees on is that Joan Quigley
Mary Phillips-Sandy: actually did help decide when the president traveled, because that
Mary Phillips-Sandy: was Nancy's big fear after the assassination attempt. And so
Mary Phillips-Sandy: I think everybody is, is pretty much in agreement that yes, Joan
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Quigly helped identify days where maybe it wouldn't be a
Mary Phillips-Sandy: good idea to go anywhere. That, you know, for safety's sake,
Mary Phillips-Sandy: you might not want to fly on that day. Maybe
Mary Phillips-Sandy: fly the next day, or fly a couple hours later,
Mary Phillips-Sandy: and that will be safer for you. And nobody really
Mary Phillips-Sandy: had a problem with that. Then it kind of shades
Mary Phillips-Sandy: into this thing of like, well, if he's not making
Mary Phillips-Sandy: a public appearance for a week, that's a big deal, right?
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Because that affects what he's able to do as president.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: And um certainly Joan coming out and saying that she
Mary Phillips-Sandy: literally told him that based on his chart and Gorbachev's chart,
Mary Phillips-Sandy: that they should sit down and talk. I mean that's
Mary Phillips-Sandy: really explosive.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Well, especially at the the time, right? Like we are
Mangesh Hattikudur: at the height of the Cold War; there's like nuclear
Mangesh Hattikudur: proliferation on both sides in a massive way, and people
Mangesh Hattikudur: are worried that someone will hit a button and cause
Mangesh Hattikudur: the end of the earth. Like that's-- the idea of
Mangesh Hattikudur: talking with your enemy at that time was pretty significant.
Mary Phillips-Sandy: People were very upset at the idea that this random
Mary Phillips-Sandy: astrologer was influencing such big decisions when there was so
Mary Phillips-Sandy: much at stake.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Do you think Reagan was actually using this advice? Was
Mangesh Hattikudur: this just going to his wife? What was the deal here?
Mary Phillips-Sandy: So that was sort of the other question. Was this
Mary Phillips-Sandy: Nancy's fault? Because everything back then was Nancy's fault. She
Mary Phillips-Sandy: had this image of being this evil puppeteer of her
Mary Phillips-Sandy: helpless husband who loved her so much he would just
Mary Phillips-Sandy: do whatever she wanted
Mangesh Hattikudur: [static sound] Just a quick aside: Nancy Reagan was indeed
Mangesh Hattikudur: ambitious for her husband; incredibly ambitious. Jimmy Stewart once said
Mangesh Hattikudur: that had Ronald been married to Nancy earlier, he would
Mangesh Hattikudur: have won an Academy award. And Reagan's aides admit this too.
Mangesh Hattikudur: They say that without Nancy there would have been no
Mangesh Hattikudur: Governor Reagan, no President Reagan. She absolutely took a lot
Mangesh Hattikudur: of heat for allegedly being the power behind the throne.
Mangesh Hattikudur: And so when this came out? That it was Nancy's
Mangesh Hattikudur: friend making these calls? That was more evidence that she
Mangesh Hattikudur: was actually controlling him.
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER FIVE: SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL
Mangesh Hattikudur: Earlier in the show, we skimmed over the fact that
Mangesh Hattikudur: there was an assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan. As he
Mangesh Hattikudur: was leaving a speech and walking to his limo, John
Mangesh Hattikudur: Hinckley Jr, a delusional individual who was trying to impress
Mangesh Hattikudur: Jodie Foster, pulled out a Rome RG 1422 caliber, and he shot it
Mangesh Hattikudur: six times in less than two seconds.
audio clip: [News tape of the assassination attempt, shouting, gunfire]
Mangesh Hattikudur: The first five shots missed their mark. One hit Reagan's press secretary Jim Brady in the head. Another hit an agent in the stomach as he put his body on the line. But as the Secret Service pushed the president into the limo, the final bullet bounced off the car, ricocheting into the president's lung and lodging just 25 millimeters from his heart. Few people would know just how close he'd come to death
White House spokesperson: This is to confirm the statements made at George Washington Hospital that the president was shot once in the left side this afternoon as he left the hotel. Mrs. Reagan is currently with the president at the hospital.
Mangesh Hattikudur: It happened early in his presidency on March, and the
Mangesh Hattikudur: truth is, in most discussions of Reagan's legacy, it's glossed over.
Mangesh Hattikudur: In his obituary in the New York Times, the shooting
Mangesh Hattikudur: isn't even mentioned until the 25th paragraph. So in the
Mangesh Hattikudur: scope of things, it just isn't thought about that much.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But for Nancy Reagan, it was something entirely different. Right,
Mangesh Hattikudur: This was something she could ever ever forget. As I
Mangesh Hattikudur: was trying to sort through all of this and put
Mangesh Hattikudur: Nancy in context, Mary sent me one more clip. Ye,
Mangesh Hattikudur: Nancy's appearance on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.
Johnny Carson: Can I ask you about the astrology? You get tired
Johnny Carson: of answering that question?
Nancy Reagan: No.
Johnny Carson: That's one of the things, you know that, uh, when it hit the papers, wow.
Nancy Reagan: I know.
Mangesh Hattikudur: If you're looking at the video, Nancy so clearly doesn't
Mangesh Hattikudur: want to talk about this, but she will. I know
Mangesh Hattikudur: she's a trained actor. I know she's good at playing
Mangesh Hattikudur: the role of first lady. But still hearing her say
Mangesh Hattikudur: why she put faith in astrology, why she needed to
Mangesh Hattikudur: put faith in it, Well, it breaks your heart where
Mangesh Hattikudur: it breaks mine.
Nancy Reagan: You can't, you can't really describe what you go through. Uh,
Nancy Reagan: when your husband is shot and almost dies. And most
Nancy Reagan: people didn't know that. There were... there were two times
Nancy Reagan: that they came to me and said they couldn't find
Nancy Reagan: his pulse. Um, he was very close to going in
Nancy Reagan: the shock. And if he had, then, that would have been it.
Nancy Reagan: And not everybody has their way of of handling that
Nancy Reagan: particular kind of trauma, and that particular kind of trauma is... it's,
Nancy Reagan: is very special. And I talked to my minister, I
Nancy Reagan: talked to friends. And then I had a friend called
Nancy Reagan: me and say, gee, they she he had talked to
Nancy Reagan: this girl and woman and, uh, she could have told me
Nancy Reagan: that Ronnie shouldn't have done a thing on that day.
Johnny Carson: Right.
Nancy Reagan: And I thought, my Lord, I could have prevented if
Nancy Reagan: you know, and um, so I called her. I didn't
Nancy Reagan: think I was doing anything so wrong, and I still
Nancy Reagan: don't think I did anything so wrong. It helped me
Nancy Reagan: through a very... really, a very rough time, very tough time.
Mangesh Hattikudur: There's so many things about the ways the Reagans tell
Mangesh Hattikudur: their story-- the way they talk about astrology-- that doesn't
Mangesh Hattikudur: really add up. From the governor's oath to the idea
Mangesh Hattikudur: that Ronald had never seen his horoscope except by accident,
Mangesh Hattikudur: to dozens of other inconsistencies. Quigley had met the Reagan's
Mangesh Hattikudur: before she actually worked on Ronald Reagan's governor's campaign. But
Mangesh Hattikudur: none of that stops this part from being true. Nancy
Mangesh Hattikudur: was desperately trying to keep her husband safe. That same year,
Mangesh Hattikudur: there would be an assassination attempt on Pope John Paul
Mangesh Hattikudur: II's life, Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat would be killed, and
Mangesh Hattikudur: world leaders really were under threat.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Nancy's guilt? It kicked in because of all this. Like
Mangesh Hattikudur: why wouldn't she try everything in her power to do that?
Nancy Reagan: But there's changes that were made were things like, uh, would
Nancy Reagan: be better to leave at two o'clock or two-thirty? I mean,
Nancy Reagan: you know, there wasn't any great and there were no
Nancy Reagan: political decisions ever made on astrology. I didn't hurt anybody
Nancy Reagan: except I embarrassed Ronnie. I was sorry for that.
Mangesh Hattikudur: It's not that I'm enamored with Nancy Reagan all of
Mangesh Hattikudur: a sudden, but I don't laugh at her anymore. Because
Mangesh Hattikudur: faced with the option to do nothing, or do something--
Mangesh Hattikudur: Nancy picked up the phones and worked them. She found
Mangesh Hattikudur: the best astrologer she could. She color-coated her husband's calendar.
Mangesh Hattikudur: She feuded with Reagan's chief of staff over the details
Mangesh Hattikudur: of his schedule, and she fought fiercely to keep her
Mangesh Hattikudur: husband out of harm's way. And seeing the love she
Mangesh Hattikudur: poured into protecting him, it makes me feel guilty because
Mangesh Hattikudur: I didn't do everything I could for my dad. I
Mangesh Hattikudur: really didn't. Sure, I raced to see him, I tussled
Mangesh Hattikudur: his hair, I kissed his head. I dressed and shaved him.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I walked him to him from the bathroom when he
Mangesh Hattikudur: was too weak to lift himself up from his chair.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I helped his frail body in and out of bed,
Mangesh Hattikudur: and stuffed a pillow under his knees. I pulled his
Mangesh Hattikudur: socks off his shiny, hairless legs to keep him warm
Mangesh Hattikudur: when he napped. And I fetched his pulp mystery books
Mangesh Hattikudur: and refilled his bowl of shelled pistachoes. I sat in
Mangesh Hattikudur: the hospital trying to decipher his mumbles and his moans,
Mangesh Hattikudur: and I put chips of ice into his mouth just
Mangesh Hattikudur: to watch him crunch at it and then smile. And
Mangesh Hattikudur: when he could barely respond anymore and the treatments weren't working,
Mangesh Hattikudur: I signed his life away. I ordered the morphine and
Mangesh Hattikudur: brought him home in an ambulance so he could breathe
Mangesh Hattikudur: his last breaths at home. I tried, I really did.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I didn't do enough. I didn't pray, not the way
Mangesh Hattikudur: my mom and sister did. I didn't hunt for an
Mangesh Hattikudur: Ayurvedic cure or research alternative medicines. I didn't place a
Mangesh Hattikudur: bet on the magical because my belief is limited to
Mangesh Hattikudur: what I understand. And I live with that guilt, not
Mangesh Hattikudur: that there's any logic to it. Because even if I
Mangesh Hattikudur: didn't believe, my dad did. And couldn't I have put
Mangesh Hattikudur: aside my pride to give him everything because everything is
Mangesh Hattikudur: what he gave me.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Next week on Skyline Drive, no more being sad! Next week
Mangesh Hattikudur: is 100% fun. We are talking to Moneyball statisticians who
Mangesh Hattikudur: use astrology, CNN's house astrologer. They used to have a
Mangesh Hattikudur: house astrologer, astrology and law school, and BTS. That's right!
Mangesh Hattikudur: We're going to use astrology to figure out Korean Supergroup
Mangesh Hattikudur: BTS's next steps. Maybe? I don't know. I can't see
Mangesh Hattikudur: into the future, but I can promise it will be fun.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Thank you so much for listening. This show was written
Mangesh Hattikudur: by Taffy Brodesser-Akner Executive crews Brodesser-Akner. Based on a book
Mangesh Hattikudur: by Taffy Brodesser... I'm so sorry. Thoese are credits for
Mangesh Hattikudur: Fleischman's in Trouble. I'm reading the wrong credits. That's a
Mangesh Hattikudur: fantastic show. Go stream it after this.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This show: Skyline Drive, is a production of Kaleidoscope and
Mangesh Hattikudur: iHeart Podcast. It’s hosted and written by me, Mangesh Hattikudur. But you would not have made it to the third episode if all of these lovely people: Mary Phillips-Sandy is our congee-loving Supervising Producer! And she’s now read every book in the world about the Reagans. Go quiz her! Mitra Bonshahi is our delightful Senior Producer and gets the best wild tape, seriously. Mark Lotto is our Story Editor and made me move Nancy Reagan from a single paragraph in Episode 1 to her own episode, and this show is so much better for it. This episode was mixed and mastered all the way in Bangalore by the talented Dhruv Shiva-Rao, with scoring, as always, from Botany. Check out his Soundcloud. The insane music in between is courtesy of the dopest Indian record label Azadi Records, and my pal Himanshu Suri, and so many others. If you want to hear more of all this music, we linked a mixtape in the show notes. Ahhh! The kids were so great. Numbers and politicians voiced by my Dean Street neighbors: Ries, the resident pizza expert; Liev, the resident panda expert; Miriam, who does the best Broadway showtunes in my backyard; and Yuki, who is very, very good at pointing out snails. Also my very sweet and very noisy roommates Henry and Ruby. Special thanks to my remarkable neighbor and counsel Rachel Strom for vetting this episode, and the The Reagan Library, The For Your Ears Only/Newsweek On Air collection, and Carson Entertainment Group for all of their incredible archive. Thank you so much! Additional production and research support from the wonderful Anna Rubanova, Soundboard, Lizzie “the natural QB” Jacobs, my talented aunt Suman Bakshi and notorious snooker hustler Arjun Bakshi. The show is Executive Produced from iHeart by my good pals Nikki Ettore and Katrina Norvell. Also, all my brilliant pals at Kaleidoscope: Oz Woloshyn, Kate Osborn, Costas Linos and Vahini Shori. Also, Cheezy. Feels like Cheezy needs a shout out. Special thanks to all my friends at iHeart, Shanta and Saurabh, my family everywhere. Dan Taberski, who read this episode’s warning! The day I got into podcasting I binged the first four episodes of Missing Richard Simmons, and every one of his shows—Running from Cops, Surviving Y2k, The Line—is so incredibly good. In fact, stop listening and go stream one of his shows right now. And just one last thank you as always
Mangesh Hattikudur: to my Amma and my Dad, Lalita and Umesh Hattikudur,
Mangesh Hattikudur: who I have to thank my lucky stars for. Thank
Mangesh Hattikudur: you so much for listening.