WEBVTT - Trickle-down Astrology 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:15.080 Warning. The following episode contains discussion of Ronald Reagan, pro wrestlers, 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.319 Ronald Reagan talking to pro wrestlers Johnny Carson, and a 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:23.800 disastrous late night pizza party. Also, astrology. Sensitive listeners, keep 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:25.520 your TUMS handy. 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:49.120 Okay, we're gonna start this out with another slide show, 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:51.600 and this time it's about Hulk Hogan. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:00:57.836 This is Hulk Hogan's Rock ‘n’ Wrestling. As a kid, I knew everyone was supposed to like Hulk Hogan. And sometimes I even pretended to like Hulk Hogan, even though I was not a fan. But I often watched his cartoons on Saturday mornings because they were on. This is the only Rock ‘n’ Wrestling episode I remember. 0:00:57.836 --> 0:01:23.800 The President wants to speak with you. 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:23.950 Yes, Sir. 0:01:23.950 --> 0:01:28.040 Your country is depending on you, Hulkster, don't let us down. 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:33.800 In it, this cartoon Ronald Reagan asked Hulk Hogan to 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.280 go to space to rescue astronauts before a shuttle explodes. 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.520 The cartoon is seared in my brain because it aired 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:43.520 not long after the Challenger disaster. 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:47.040 Well, what was it like being on the first wrestler 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:47.680 in space? 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.880 I tell you Mean Gene it was more awesome than 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:51.720 the combat zone. 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.639 I also remember thinking, why do they think Hulk Hogan 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.000 can pry open a cargo bay door? Because I mean, 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:04.000 I know he's strong. But even in cartoon form, this 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.200 seemed dumb. And I was seven at the time. 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.680 But maybe the makers of Rock and Wrestling thought they 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:14.040 were doing something to help calm kids nerves. 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:18.919 And I want to say something to the school children 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.200 of America. I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:23.720 painful things like this happen. 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:31.320 That's the actual Ronald Reagan. The day after the Challenger exploded, 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.400 our first grade teacher wheeled a TV into our classroom 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.360 so the President could talk to us directly. 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.880 It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery. 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.760 It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons. 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.960 The future doesn't belong to the faint hearted. It belongs 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:52.480 to the brave. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:03.960 The future belongs to the brave. Those words embody America right? 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:09.440 And to preserve hope in the face of something so devastating, 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:16.360 so visible... Anyway, what does any of this have to 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:20.400 do with us? Well, the Challenger wasn't the only time 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:24.400 Reagan was thinking about the intersection of space and the future. 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.680 That's right, I'm talking about astrology. And it turns out, 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:34.120 in the 1980s there was a full on astrology scandal 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:35.280 in the Reagan White House. 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.523 I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe in it. 0:03:40.523 --> 0:03:40.564 Do you believe in it? 0:03:40.564 --> 0:03:40.579 What? 0:03:40.579 --> 0:03:40.640 Do YOU believe in it. 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:56.840 From Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts, I'm Mangesh Hattikudur. Welcome to 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:57.760 Skyline Drive 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:34.960 CHAPTER ONE: WHEN GOD'S POWERFUL WORD CAME 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.200 Let's start with the part that is the most controversial. 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.560 A few months ago, I told the American people I 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.200 did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.720 best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:57.640 and the evidence tell me it is not. 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:03.839 The weird thing about Ronald Reagan is that he was unknowable. Like, 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:08.880 frustratingly unknowable. When the famed biographer Edmund Morris got three 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.480 million dollars to do an official biography, he spent fourteen 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.120 years interviewing and shadowing Reagan. But when he turned in 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.880 his book, he switched it from a biography to fiction. 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.080 And when he was asked why he did that with 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:26.479 his manuscript on 60 Minutes, Morris said, "He was truly 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.920 one of the strangest men who ever lived. Nobody around 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:35.120 him understood him. Every person I interviewed, almost without exception, 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:39.640 eventually would say, you know, I could never really figure 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:40.080 him out." 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.160 Think about that. Fourteen years of access and Morris couldn't 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.000 figure out how to accurately write about the man and 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.440 what he stood for. And maybe that's why my mom 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.480 and dad had such different opinions of Reagan. To my dad, 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.920 a newly minted American, Reagan was proof that anyone could 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:03.600 make it in America-- an actor becoming president. I mean, 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.320 that's the optimism of an immigrant; someone who genuinely believed 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.680 his son's potential was limitless in this new land. But 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.760 to my mom, who was not a fan of his policies, 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.800 Reagan's supposed interest in astrology made her like him more, 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:23.160 because it made him more like us. And Reagan's interest 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.840 in astrology was just this thing I always knew about 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.680 growing up. But as I grew older, I began to 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.400 question it. Like it kind of seemed too outlandish to 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.040 be true. So I asked my pal Mary if she 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.400 could find anything more concrete about this whole story. 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.159 Actually, before we dive into the controversy, I just wanted 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.159 to ask you. I feel really lucky to have you 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.880 in this project, but I'm curious why you did it 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:51.840 because you don't believe in astrology. 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:54.360 Um, well, you're very persuasive. 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:59.760 I guess We're sitting in a studio in Midtown and 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.920 I'm laughing because it's true. Mary was not convinced when 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:05.382 I pitched this to her. 0:07:05.382 --> 0:07:08.360 But I can, I can learn about things without believing 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.040 in them. I figured it's an opportunity to go down 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:13.160 a path I would not ordinarily go down. 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:14.639 Do you know what your sign is? 0:07:14.639 --> 0:07:16.120 I found out, I'm a Cancer. I thought I was 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.800 a Gemini. Turns out I'm a Cancer. 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.560 So I roped you into this thing with astrology, and 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.800 then I said, hey, I really want to look into 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:25.480 Ronald Reagan. 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.600 You did, and I like Ronald Reagan about as much 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:33.240 as I like astrology. I grew up being terrified of 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.000 Ronald Reagan. I remember being like three years old and 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.760 seeing him on the TV and being genuinely frightened. Um. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.600 My parents were dragging me to defense spending protests during 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.520 the eighties, so I had a very different experience. Um, 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.920 so it didn't seem to really add up my understanding 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.880 of Ronald Reagan and my understanding of astrology. That didn't 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.280 really make any sense. And so that was why I 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.040 figured it would be really interesting to find out what 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:57.880 actually happened. 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.560 So like, what was the sort of controversy that that 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:03.720 made everyone suddenly start talking about it? 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.360 So this is really juicy. There's this guy, Don Regan 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.920 who had been chief of staff for Ronald Reagan. And 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:12.720 he had been the chairman of Meryll Lynch for a 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.080 long time. He was Treasury Secretary. He was like the 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.480 architect of Reaganomics. And then he became chief of staff 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.000 and he left the White House. He got kicked out 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.920 and he basically was thrown out in disgrace from his job. 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.600 And so he turned around and wrote a tell-all book 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.040 called For the Record. And apparently he got a million 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.160 dollar advance, which was huge money at the time. 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.480 Yeah, but he made this huge revelation that while he 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.800 was in the White House, Nancy Reagan was asking him 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:48.160 to change the president's schedule based on astrological advice from 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.200 a friend. Quote quote. He even said he had to keep a color-coded calendar of like good days, auspicious days, bad days, iffy days for the president's travel, his public appearances, all of this. And the press went crazy when they found this out. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.760 Reagan's and their stars astrologically speaking, Did Donald Regan get 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.400 his ex bosses Capricorn- that is goat? Or is it 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:12.320 all a load of Taurus? 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:14.880 With President Richard Nixon, towards the end, the claim was 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.200 "I am not a crook." With Ronald Reagan, last week it 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:18.640 was more like, "I am not a nut." 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.680 Is that like a gift from heaven for a cartoon 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:21.520 as a story like that? 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:27.120 Yeah, [laughs] it is. I consider that-- it's just it's 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.280 too good, too good to be true. 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:33.720 There's a Reagan library. They have archives, and I thought, well, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.840 maybe there's something in there about astrology. Turns out they 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.742 actually have a finding aid labeled astrology. 0:09:41.742 --> 0:09:43.000 Oh really? 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.200 Yeah, because they have files that are, you know, touch 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.080 on the scandal. I asked them if I could see them, 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.280 and they said that they would have to take some 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:54.280 time to take all the staples out, but then they 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.240 could scan them and send them to me. And a 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.679 lot of it was just newspaper clippings, you know, cartoons 0:09:58.679 --> 0:09:59.226 from when it came out. 0:09:59.226 --> 0:09:59.359 Really? 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.920 Yeah, and there were transcripts of of press conferences where 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:08.120 the White House spokespeople were just getting slammed. All the 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.960 reporters wanted to talk about was astrology. What is the deal? 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.000 What you know? Are they just deciding everything based on this? 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:15.920 You know? What can you tell us? And they didn't 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.559 want to answer. But what I thought was really fascinating 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.640 was they had saved all of this correspondence from the 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:26.179 religious right. Basically evangelical Christians who had helped elect Ronald Reagan. 0:10:26.179 --> 0:10:26.359 Mmhhh. 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:32.320 Evangelical Christians do not like astrology. This is at the 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.000 height of the controversy. From Don Regan's book, this radio 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.320 preacher named George Otis, who is a friend of the Reagans, 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:41.000 wrote directly to the White House. "Dear Mr President, You've 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:43.520 been a great chief of State. You will recall how 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.160 in October 1970, God spoke directly to you through myself 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.520 there in your Sacramento home. When God's powerful word came 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.000 you were to become president of the United States. This 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.600 may have been the most remarkable visitation from the Lord 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.680 of any president in history. You were handpicked for leadership 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:02.440 in one of our nation's most pivotal hours." 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.840 No pressure, right? And so he was saying, "I beg 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.280 you to renounce the practice of astrology in the White House. 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:11.160 To make a statement now would be an act of 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.800 courage and pleasing to God. But if you fail to 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.960 do so, you legitimize astrology and the occult and set 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.199 our nation on a collision course with God." 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.640 I don't know why, but I always sort of bristle 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.080 when I hear things like this. There is such hypocrisy 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.199 in what sort of magical thinking we're okay with as 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:37.480 a country. Like if a televangelist goes into tongues and 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.480 prophesies that Reagan has to be the next president because 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:45.679 God told him, that is totally okay. Western miracles don't 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.840 bother the base, But if an astrologer makes a prediction, 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:53.360 that's blasphemy. It just feels silly that a president should 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:55.960 be lauded for believing in one of those ideas but 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:57.920 threatened for believing in the other. 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.040 It reminds me of this feeling I had as a kid, 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.959 totally the opposite of my dad's optimism about who was 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.080 allowed to be president. The fact that I was born 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:15.120 brown and Hindu, that I had a name that was unpronounceable. 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.320 It seemingly crippled my chances from the start. I mean, 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.760 the Indian kids who were ten years older than me 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:26.160 and wanted to be politicians, the Bobby Jindal's and Nikki Haley's, 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.160 they always seemed to convert to Christianity and change their 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:31.200 names along the way. 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:32.920 You know, I wish I could tell you I had 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.120 the sun to epiphany. There was no moment on that 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.040 road to Damascus where it was that easy for me. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.679 Christianity spoke to me at a time where I needed 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.120 a connection, and so no political pressure should never change 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.559 a person. I am my parents daughter. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.800 Maybe that's why I'm so interested in Ronald Reagan. Because 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:57.360 even though he's seen as this ultimate American; this American 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:57.960 mascot 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.320 For those who have abandoned hope, we'll restore hope, and 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.079 we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:06.760 America great again. 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.200 By dabbling in astrology, he got away with something that 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:13.320 doesn't feel American at all. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.880 So, right after Don Reagan's book came out and broke 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.160 this story of astrology in the White House, Ronald Reagan 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.920 and George Bush, who was then Vice President, were walking 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:28.600 to a press conference in the in the Rose Garden. 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.000 Mr President, would you continue to allow astrology to play 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:39.396 a part in the makeup of your daily schedule, sir? 0:13:39.396 --> 0:13:39.397 [boos] Knock it off, man! 0:13:39.397 --> 0:13:39.400 You asked for it. I can’t, because I never did. 0:13:39.397 --> 0:13:46.360 This is not the man I watched in first grade 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.439 reminding us that science can be heartbreak, but it is 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:55.240 always progress. I mean, this man is struggling. Like, listen 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:56.720 to this from May seventeenth. 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:02.920 This was all once again smoke and mirrors, and we 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.600 made no decisions on it, and we're not binding our 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:11.040 lives to this. And I don't mean to offend anyone 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.400 who does believe in it. 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.000 So right there, he takes a moment to make sure 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.600 he's not offending anyone who believes in astrology. And then 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:25.413 a reporter pounces. 0:14:25.413 --> 0:14:25.460 Do you believe in it? 0:14:25.460 --> 0:14:25.473 What? 0:14:25.473 --> 0:14:25.531 Do YOU believe in it. 0:14:25.531 --> 0:14:25.957 I don’t guide my life by it, but I won’t answer the question the other way, because I don’t know enough about it to say is there something to it or not. 0:14:25.957 --> 0:14:41.360 Belief is hard to talk about. It's confusing. Sometimes belief 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.760 is just the collective sway of these tiny tendrils of influence. 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.920 Like it's not some hard and fast tenets. I mean, 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:52.680 you hear it in Reagan's words, right, like talking about 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.040 belief is so hard that one of the most gifted politicians. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.800 Stumbles through his answer, and he twists his words into 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:04.960 some think so convoluted it barely has meaning anymore. Except 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:09.840 Reagan is not being honest here because astrology had definitely 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.960 played a role in his daily and his political life. 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:15.440 And you don't have to take our word for it, 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:26.280 you can take his straight from his 1965 autobiography. So let's turn back the clocks and investigate, right after this break. 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:50.360 CHAPTER TWO: WHAT WOULD NANCY DO? 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.960 The strange thing is, for decades, Ron and Nancy's interest 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.760 in astrology was an open secret. Or at least it 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:02.200 had been. 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:32.479 Astrology was this California thing. And it was also a showbiz thing. And the Reagans and their friends, they enjoyed rubbing shoulders with people like LA Times astrologer Carroll Righter. Because, like People Magazine put it, Righter was a celebrity in his own right. Quote, “Righter was the confidant of the rich and famous, who saw him less as a backdoor soothsayer than as social equal. His zodiac parties in the fifties were highlights of every season. Fish for swimming in his pool for the Pisces party, and he rented a live lion for a Leo party.” 0:16:32.479 --> 0:17:00.280 As Ronald wrote in his 1965 autobiography, Where's The Rest Of Me?, “Every morning, Nancy and I turn to see what he has to say about people of our respective birth signs.” Horoscopes and astrology, it was no big deal, and a part of their daily morning routine. They like to check in and contemplate how the stars might affect their day, and they embraced the culture. Around that same time, Nancy started paying Righter for his astrological advice. 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:02.760 Then came the election. 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.159 In late nineteen sixty six, after Ronald Reagan won the 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.359 governor's race, he scheduled his oath to take place, specifically 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:19.159 at twelve sixteen am on January 2nd, 1967. The timing of this 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.359 did not make any sense unless you were looking at 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:26.080 the stars. It turns out that exact time corresponded to 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.160 Jupiter rising, and if you're a believer, starting your term 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:34.320 at that moment would make it blessed, prosperous. 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.920 When the outgoing governor, Edmund Brown got wind of the story, 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.400 he leaked it to the press and Reagan's team immediately 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.440 went into spin mode. Right so, Reagan had a spokesperson 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.840 tell reporters that he didn't believe in astrology. The staffer 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.840 even took it further. He said Reagan was so averse 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.840 to astrology that he had only ever seen a horoscope 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:01.680 by accident, which obviously wasn't true. But the craziest part 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.960 of all this, like the reason we're talking about this? 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.840 It means that Don Regan's book wasn't even the president's 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:10.960 first astrology-related scandal. 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:13.600 But let's talk about Nancy. 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.280 When I started looking into this, the first place I 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.280 looked was Nancy Reagan's memoir because I wanted to hear 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.480 her side of the story. It's called My Turn, and 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.760 it was very pointedly a rebuke to Don Regan's book 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:29.919 the year prior. And she basically disputed everything he said 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.960 and downplayed the role that her astrologer friend played in 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.840 the President's life, in her life, in everything. 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.800 And she said it was only minor schedule changes and 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.040 it only came about because she was so worried for 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:46.400 her husband's safety after the assassination attempt in 1981. And 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:48.199 that she was driven to do this out of a 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.359 sense of duty and guilt. If you really want to 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:54.560 trace the influence of astrology on the White House, this 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.720 is the moment that Nancy Reagan started casting about for help. 0:18:58.240 --> 0:18:59.800 And it was her friend MERV Griffin-- 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.680 Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Wheel of Fortune. I’d like to introduce Susan Stafford, our hostess.. 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:10.240 Yes game show legend MERV Griffin who introduced her to 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:11.200 Joan Quigley. 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.399 Joan Quigley was this Vassar graduate. She was very smart. 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:19.760 She came from a very wealthy Nob Hill, San Francisco family. Initially, 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:24.640 Joan really tried to downplay her role in the Reagan's 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.280 lives because Nancy had asked her to do that. As 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.520 all of this controversy was boiling over, Joan really stuck 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:32.800 to the party line that: well, no, I didn't have 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:37.119 that much influence. But when Nancy's book came out, I 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.399 think at that point Joan was like, "screw you, Nancy." 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:40.880 You know? "It's me time, now!" 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.840 She became briefly the most famous astrologer in the world, right? 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:46.840 She was going to take advantage of it. And so 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.440 she started telling the story that in fact she had 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:50.640 controlled everything. 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.000 It's true Nancy's astrologer would take credit for helping to 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.719 appoint some justices, keeping the president safe, and even thawing 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:02.120 the Cold War. But the question emerged: just how influential 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.320 was she and how much did she have the president's 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:09.160 ear on foreign policy? But before we talk about Nancy's friend... 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:23.039 CHAPTER THREE: A SHORT AND INCOMPLETE LIST OF MODERN POLITICIANS WHO USE ASTROLOGY 0:20:23.039 --> 0:20:26.840 If Joe Biden was consulting an astrologer on major American issues, 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.359 how would you feel? Would you vote for an astrology believer? 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.520 We interrupted a New York City dinner party to ask 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:36.040 that very same question. 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:45.580 It would feel more like, um, the president was just rolling the dice, if that was how he was making decisions. 0:20:45.580 --> 0:20:54.794 Yes, I would vote for a presidential candidate that used astrology to guide their decision making, and I would think that they were very wise. 0:20:54.794 --> 0:21:07.665 Absolutely not. For as much as I like the astrology and the meaning behind that, I think that there is, uh, absolutely no connection between being a great president and reading the, the stars. 0:21:07.665 --> 0:21:10.000 It's just not politically correct. 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:16.000 But the truth is, Reagan's interest in astrology does not 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:23.760 make him an outlier. Here's a list of modern politicians 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.320 who read their horoscope and checked it twice. 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.071 One! Richard Nixon 0:21:30.071 --> 0:21:33.040 Nixon was a quirky guy. Not only did he ban 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:36.480 soup in the White House and eat cottage cheese with ketchup, 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:40.880 but he also valued the advice of astrologer Jeanne Dixon, who, 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.360 to be fair, also gave advice to Franklin Roosevelt, JFK 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.919 and the Reagans. But Nixon called her his soothsayer, and 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:50.920 not only did Jeanne visit him in the White House, 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:55.040 but she sent the president copious letters on national security predictions. 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.480 In fact, in nineteen seventy two, when she warned a 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:02.240 threat on American soil after the Munich Olympics, Nixon used 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.560 her intel to alert Kissinger and to assemble a counter 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:06.639 terrorism unit. 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:09.639 Two! Boris Yeltsin. 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.399 The only thing I remember about Boris Yeltsin is that 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:18.240 one time when he was visiting Washington, he almost caused 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:21.240 this international incident because he left the White House grounds 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:25.720 drunk in just his underwear, desperate to find some late 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:30.960 night pizza. This is true, which I can respect. But 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:35.240 Yelson was also an astrology head. During his presidency, a 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.760 naval captain revealed to The Economist that Russia had a 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:43.000 secret institute that employed "military astrologers." 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:48.086 Three! Francois Mitterand 0:22:48.086 --> 0:23:30.766 When the French president's wife made accusations that Mitterand was only interested in his astrologer because he was sleeping with her, the astrologer, a former model and actress, released tapes of their conversations to show that they had a purely professional relationship. And on these tapes were incredible things, like Mitterand trying to understand the power struggles in Russia. Through astrology, he was using the stars to vet cabinet members, and most curiously, he was taking astrological advice on how to handle France's role and entry into the Gulf War. 0:23:30.766 --> 0:23:48.423 Anyway, all that's to say that a handful of astrologers have had way more sway on world events than any of us would like to think. 0:23:48.423 --> 0:23:51.080 CHAPTER FOUR: WHAT WOULD JOAN DO? 0:23:57.760 --> 0:23:58.120 If we're to believe Joan Quigley, one of the many things she helped make happen was Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's appointment. She also claims to have planned the president's debate times and delayed the timing of Reagan's cancer surgery, but perhaps most importantly, Quigley takes credit for changing the president's opinion about Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. As reported in the New York Times, Quigley battled to the mat for three hours to convince Nancy Reagan that her husband could trust Gorbachev. As Quigley said, “the placement of his ruler, Mercury, symbolizes to me that despite his Russian training and origins, Gorbachev has the instincts of the humanitarian.” Joan also convinced the president to work towards disarmament, and to extend his trip in Europe to hammer out an agreement. 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:47.840 The one thing everybody agrees on is that Joan Quigley 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:51.919 actually did help decide when the president traveled, because that 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:55.280 was Nancy's big fear after the assassination attempt. And so 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:59.520 I think everybody is, is pretty much in agreement that yes, Joan 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:02.439 Quigly helped identify days where maybe it wouldn't be a 0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:05.520 good idea to go anywhere. That, you know, for safety's sake, 0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:08.119 you might not want to fly on that day. Maybe 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:10.280 fly the next day, or fly a couple hours later, 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:12.880 and that will be safer for you. And nobody really 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.399 had a problem with that. Then it kind of shades 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:17.520 into this thing of like, well, if he's not making 0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:21.400 a public appearance for a week, that's a big deal, right? 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:24.240 Because that affects what he's able to do as president. 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:27.720 And um certainly Joan coming out and saying that she 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:33.200 literally told him that based on his chart and Gorbachev's chart, 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:35.800 that they should sit down and talk. I mean that's 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:36.840 really explosive. 0:25:37.000 --> 0:25:39.960 Well, especially at the the time, right? Like we are 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:43.320 at the height of the Cold War; there's like nuclear 0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:47.400 proliferation on both sides in a massive way, and people 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:50.240 are worried that someone will hit a button and cause 0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:53.040 the end of the earth. Like that's-- the idea of 0:25:53.119 --> 0:25:55.960 talking with your enemy at that time was pretty significant. 0:25:56.280 --> 0:26:00.439 People were very upset at the idea that this random 0:26:00.440 --> 0:26:04.119 astrologer was influencing such big decisions when there was so 0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:04.840 much at stake. 0:26:05.600 --> 0:26:08.440 Do you think Reagan was actually using this advice? Was 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:10.440 this just going to his wife? What was the deal here? 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:12.879 So that was sort of the other question. Was this 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:17.280 Nancy's fault? Because everything back then was Nancy's fault. She 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:21.240 had this image of being this evil puppeteer of her 0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:23.679 helpless husband who loved her so much he would just 0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:25.760 do whatever she wanted 0:26:25.760 --> 0:26:28.639 [static sound] Just a quick aside: Nancy Reagan was indeed 0:26:28.640 --> 0:26:33.240 ambitious for her husband; incredibly ambitious. Jimmy Stewart once said 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:36.080 that had Ronald been married to Nancy earlier, he would 0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:39.840 have won an Academy award. And Reagan's aides admit this too. 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:42.720 They say that without Nancy there would have been no 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:47.439 Governor Reagan, no President Reagan. She absolutely took a lot 0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:50.600 of heat for allegedly being the power behind the throne. 0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:53.240 And so when this came out? That it was Nancy's 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:57.159 friend making these calls? That was more evidence that she 0:26:57.400 --> 0:27:13.280 was actually controlling him. 0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:15.560 CHAPTER FIVE: SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL 0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:19.760 Earlier in the show, we skimmed over the fact that 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:24.359 there was an assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan. As he 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:26.640 was leaving a speech and walking to his limo, John 0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:30.359 Hinckley Jr, a delusional individual who was trying to impress 0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:36.120 Jodie Foster, pulled out a Rome RG 1422 caliber, and he shot it 0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:38.200 six times in less than two seconds. 0:27:47.680 --> 0:27:47.756 [News tape of the assassination attempt, shouting, gunfire] 0:27:47.756 --> 0:28:11.440 The first five shots missed their mark. One hit Reagan's press secretary Jim Brady in the head. Another hit an agent in the stomach as he put his body on the line. But as the Secret Service pushed the president into the limo, the final bullet bounced off the car, ricocheting into the president's lung and lodging just 25 millimeters from his heart. Few people would know just how close he'd come to death 0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:25.673 This is to confirm the statements made at George Washington Hospital that the president was shot once in the left side this afternoon as he left the hotel. Mrs. Reagan is currently with the president at the hospital. 0:28:25.673 --> 0:28:35.679 It happened early in his presidency on March, and the 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:40.320 truth is, in most discussions of Reagan's legacy, it's glossed over. 0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:44.360 In his obituary in the New York Times, the shooting 0:28:44.400 --> 0:28:49.520 isn't even mentioned until the 25th paragraph. So in the 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:52.640 scope of things, it just isn't thought about that much. 0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:57.760 But for Nancy Reagan, it was something entirely different. Right, 0:28:58.080 --> 0:29:09.880 This was something she could ever ever forget. As I 0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:12.720 was trying to sort through all of this and put 0:29:12.800 --> 0:29:18.960