1 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:15,080 Dan Taberski: Warning. The following episode contains discussion of Ronald Reagan, pro wrestlers, 2 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,319 Dan Taberski: Ronald Reagan talking to pro wrestlers Johnny Carson, and a 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:23,800 Dan Taberski: disastrous late night pizza party. Also, astrology. Sensitive listeners, keep 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,520 Dan Taberski: your TUMS handy. 5 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:49,120 Mangesh Hattikudur: Okay, we're gonna start this out with another slide show, 6 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,600 Mangesh Hattikudur: and this time it's about Hulk Hogan. 7 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:57,836 Mangesh Hattikudur: This is Hulk Hogan's Rock ‘n’ Wrestling. As a kid, I knew everyone was supposed to like Hulk Hogan. And sometimes I even pretended to like Hulk Hogan, even though I was not a fan. But I often watched his cartoons on Saturday mornings because they were on. This is the only Rock ‘n’ Wrestling episode I remember. 8 00:00:57,836 --> 00:01:23,800 Cartoon voice: The President wants to speak with you. 9 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:23,950 Cartoon Hulk Hogan: Yes, Sir. 10 00:01:23,950 --> 00:01:28,040 Cartoon President: Your country is depending on you, Hulkster, don't let us down. 11 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,800 Mangesh Hattikudur: In it, this cartoon Ronald Reagan asked Hulk Hogan to 12 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,280 Mangesh Hattikudur: go to space to rescue astronauts before a shuttle explodes. 13 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,520 Mangesh Hattikudur: The cartoon is seared in my brain because it aired 14 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,520 Mangesh Hattikudur: not long after the Challenger disaster. 15 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,040 Cartoon voice: Well, what was it like being on the first wrestler 16 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:47,680 Cartoon voice: in space? 17 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,880 Cartoon voice: I tell you Mean Gene it was more awesome than 18 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:51,720 Cartoon voice: the combat zone. 19 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,639 Mangesh Hattikudur: I also remember thinking, why do they think Hulk Hogan 20 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: can pry open a cargo bay door? Because I mean, 21 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:04,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: I know he's strong. But even in cartoon form, this 22 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,200 Mangesh Hattikudur: seemed dumb. And I was seven at the time. 23 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,680 Mangesh Hattikudur: But maybe the makers of Rock and Wrestling thought they 24 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: were doing something to help calm kids nerves. 25 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:18,919 Ronald Reagan: And I want to say something to the school children 26 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,200 Ronald Reagan: of America. I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes 27 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:23,720 Ronald Reagan: painful things like this happen. 28 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: That's the actual Ronald Reagan. The day after the Challenger exploded, 29 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: our first grade teacher wheeled a TV into our classroom 30 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,360 Mangesh Hattikudur: so the President could talk to us directly. 31 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,880 Ronald Reagan: It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery. 32 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,760 Ronald Reagan: It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons. 33 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,960 Ronald Reagan: The future doesn't belong to the faint hearted. It belongs 34 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:52,480 Ronald Reagan: to the brave. 35 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:03,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: The future belongs to the brave. Those words embody America right? 36 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:09,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: And to preserve hope in the face of something so devastating, 37 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:16,360 Mangesh Hattikudur: so visible... Anyway, what does any of this have to 38 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: do with us? Well, the Challenger wasn't the only time 39 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: Reagan was thinking about the intersection of space and the future. 40 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,680 Mangesh Hattikudur: That's right, I'm talking about astrology. And it turns out, 41 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,120 Mangesh Hattikudur: in the 1980s there was a full on astrology scandal 42 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:35,280 Mangesh Hattikudur: in the Reagan White House. 43 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,523 Ronald Reagan: I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe in it. 44 00:03:40,523 --> 00:03:40,564 Reporter: Do you believe in it? 45 00:03:40,564 --> 00:03:40,579 Ronald Reagan: What? 46 00:03:40,579 --> 00:03:40,640 Reporter: Do YOU believe in it. 47 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:56,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts, I'm Mangesh Hattikudur. Welcome to 48 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:57,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: Skyline Drive 49 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:34,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER ONE: WHEN GOD'S POWERFUL WORD CAME 50 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,200 Ronald Reagan: Let's start with the part that is the most controversial. 51 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,560 Ronald Reagan: A few months ago, I told the American people I 52 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,200 Ronald Reagan: did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my 53 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,720 Ronald Reagan: best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts 54 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,640 Ronald Reagan: and the evidence tell me it is not. 55 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,839 Mangesh Hattikudur: The weird thing about Ronald Reagan is that he was unknowable. Like, 56 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,880 Mangesh Hattikudur: frustratingly unknowable. When the famed biographer Edmund Morris got three 57 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: million dollars to do an official biography, he spent fourteen 58 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,120 Mangesh Hattikudur: years interviewing and shadowing Reagan. But when he turned in 59 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,880 Mangesh Hattikudur: his book, he switched it from a biography to fiction. 60 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,080 Mangesh Hattikudur: And when he was asked why he did that with 61 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,479 Mangesh Hattikudur: his manuscript on 60 Minutes, Morris said, "He was truly 62 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,920 Mangesh Hattikudur: one of the strangest men who ever lived. Nobody around 63 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,120 Mangesh Hattikudur: him understood him. Every person I interviewed, almost without exception, 64 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: eventually would say, you know, I could never really figure 65 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:40,080 Mangesh Hattikudur: him out." 66 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: Think about that. Fourteen years of access and Morris couldn't 67 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: figure out how to accurately write about the man and 68 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: what he stood for. And maybe that's why my mom 69 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: and dad had such different opinions of Reagan. To my dad, 70 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,920 Mangesh Hattikudur: a newly minted American, Reagan was proof that anyone could 71 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,600 Mangesh Hattikudur: make it in America-- an actor becoming president. I mean, 72 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: that's the optimism of an immigrant; someone who genuinely believed 73 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,680 Mangesh Hattikudur: his son's potential was limitless in this new land. But 74 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: to my mom, who was not a fan of his policies, 75 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,800 Mangesh Hattikudur: Reagan's supposed interest in astrology made her like him more, 76 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: because it made him more like us. And Reagan's interest 77 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: in astrology was just this thing I always knew about 78 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,680 Mangesh Hattikudur: growing up. But as I grew older, I began to 79 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: question it. Like it kind of seemed too outlandish to 80 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: be true. So I asked my pal Mary if she 81 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: could find anything more concrete about this whole story. 82 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,159 Mangesh Hattikudur: Actually, before we dive into the controversy, I just wanted 83 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,159 Mangesh Hattikudur: to ask you. I feel really lucky to have you 84 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,880 Mangesh Hattikudur: in this project, but I'm curious why you did it 85 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: because you don't believe in astrology. 86 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,360 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Um, well, you're very persuasive. 87 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: I guess We're sitting in a studio in Midtown and 88 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,920 Mangesh Hattikudur: I'm laughing because it's true. Mary was not convinced when 89 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:05,382 Mangesh Hattikudur: I pitched this to her. 90 00:07:05,382 --> 00:07:08,360 Mary Phillips-Sandy: But I can, I can learn about things without believing 91 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,040 Mary Phillips-Sandy: in them. I figured it's an opportunity to go down 92 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,160 Mary Phillips-Sandy: a path I would not ordinarily go down. 93 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:14,639 Mangesh Hattikudur: Do you know what your sign is? 94 00:07:14,639 --> 00:07:16,120 Mary Phillips-Sandy: I found out, I'm a Cancer. I thought I was 95 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,800 Mary Phillips-Sandy: a Gemini. Turns out I'm a Cancer. 96 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,560 Mangesh Hattikudur: So I roped you into this thing with astrology, and 97 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,800 Mangesh Hattikudur: then I said, hey, I really want to look into 98 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:25,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: Ronald Reagan. 99 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,600 Mary Phillips-Sandy: You did, and I like Ronald Reagan about as much 100 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:33,240 Mary Phillips-Sandy: as I like astrology. I grew up being terrified of 101 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,000 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Ronald Reagan. I remember being like three years old and 102 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,760 Mary Phillips-Sandy: seeing him on the TV and being genuinely frightened. Um. 103 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,600 Mary Phillips-Sandy: My parents were dragging me to defense spending protests during 104 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,520 Mary Phillips-Sandy: the eighties, so I had a very different experience. Um, 105 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,920 Mary Phillips-Sandy: so it didn't seem to really add up my understanding 106 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,880 Mary Phillips-Sandy: of Ronald Reagan and my understanding of astrology. That didn't 107 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: really make any sense. And so that was why I 108 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,040 Mary Phillips-Sandy: figured it would be really interesting to find out what 109 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:57,880 Mary Phillips-Sandy: actually happened. 110 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,560 Mangesh Hattikudur: So like, what was the sort of controversy that that 111 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,720 Mangesh Hattikudur: made everyone suddenly start talking about it? 112 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,360 Mary Phillips-Sandy: So this is really juicy. There's this guy, Don Regan 113 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,920 Mary Phillips-Sandy: who had been chief of staff for Ronald Reagan. And 114 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,720 Mary Phillips-Sandy: he had been the chairman of Meryll Lynch for a 115 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,080 Mary Phillips-Sandy: long time. He was Treasury Secretary. He was like the 116 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,480 Mary Phillips-Sandy: architect of Reaganomics. And then he became chief of staff 117 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,000 Mary Phillips-Sandy: and he left the White House. He got kicked out 118 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,920 Mary Phillips-Sandy: and he basically was thrown out in disgrace from his job. 119 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,600 Mary Phillips-Sandy: And so he turned around and wrote a tell-all book 120 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,040 Mary Phillips-Sandy: called For the Record. And apparently he got a million 121 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,160 Mary Phillips-Sandy: dollar advance, which was huge money at the time. 122 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,480 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Yeah, but he made this huge revelation that while he 123 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,800 Mary Phillips-Sandy: was in the White House, Nancy Reagan was asking him 124 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,160 Mary Phillips-Sandy: to change the president's schedule based on astrological advice from 125 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,200 Mary Phillips-Sandy: a friend. Quote quote. He even said he had to keep a color-coded calendar of like good days, auspicious days, bad days, iffy days for the president's travel, his public appearances, all of this. And the press went crazy when they found this out. 126 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,760 Reporter: Reagan's and their stars astrologically speaking, Did Donald Regan get 127 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,400 Reporter: his ex bosses Capricorn- that is goat? Or is it 128 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:12,320 Reporter: all a load of Taurus? 129 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,880 Reporter: With President Richard Nixon, towards the end, the claim was 130 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,200 Reporter: "I am not a crook." With Ronald Reagan, last week it 131 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:18,640 Reporter: was more like, "I am not a nut." 132 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,680 Reporter: Is that like a gift from heaven for a cartoon 133 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:21,520 Reporter: as a story like that? 134 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:27,120 Doug Marlette: Yeah, [laughs] it is. I consider that-- it's just it's 135 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,280 Doug Marlette: too good, too good to be true. 136 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,720 Mary Phillips-Sandy: There's a Reagan library. They have archives, and I thought, well, 137 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,840 Mary Phillips-Sandy: maybe there's something in there about astrology. Turns out they 138 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,742 Mary Phillips-Sandy: actually have a finding aid labeled astrology. 139 00:09:41,742 --> 00:09:43,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: Oh really? 140 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,200 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Yeah, because they have files that are, you know, touch 141 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,080 Mary Phillips-Sandy: on the scandal. I asked them if I could see them, 142 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: and they said that they would have to take some 143 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: time to take all the staples out, but then they 144 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,240 Mary Phillips-Sandy: could scan them and send them to me. And a 145 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,679 Mary Phillips-Sandy: lot of it was just newspaper clippings, you know, cartoons 146 00:09:58,679 --> 00:09:59,226 Mary Phillips-Sandy: from when it came out. 147 00:09:59,226 --> 00:09:59,359 Mangesh Hattikudur: Really? 148 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,920 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Yeah, and there were transcripts of of press conferences where 149 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:08,120 Mary Phillips-Sandy: the White House spokespeople were just getting slammed. All the 150 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,960 Mary Phillips-Sandy: reporters wanted to talk about was astrology. What is the deal? 151 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,000 Mary Phillips-Sandy: What you know? Are they just deciding everything based on this? 152 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:15,920 Mary Phillips-Sandy: You know? What can you tell us? And they didn't 153 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,559 Mary Phillips-Sandy: want to answer. But what I thought was really fascinating 154 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,640 Mary Phillips-Sandy: was they had saved all of this correspondence from the 155 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:26,179 Mary Phillips-Sandy: religious right. Basically evangelical Christians who had helped elect Ronald Reagan. 156 00:10:26,179 --> 00:10:26,359 Mangesh Hattikudur: Mmhhh. 157 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:32,320 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Evangelical Christians do not like astrology. This is at the 158 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,000 Mary Phillips-Sandy: height of the controversy. From Don Regan's book, this radio 159 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,320 Mary Phillips-Sandy: preacher named George Otis, who is a friend of the Reagans, 160 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,000 Mary Phillips-Sandy: wrote directly to the White House. "Dear Mr President, You've 161 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,520 Mary Phillips-Sandy: been a great chief of State. You will recall how 162 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,160 Mary Phillips-Sandy: in October 1970, God spoke directly to you through myself 163 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,520 Mary Phillips-Sandy: there in your Sacramento home. When God's powerful word came 164 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,000 Mary Phillips-Sandy: you were to become president of the United States. This 165 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,600 Mary Phillips-Sandy: may have been the most remarkable visitation from the Lord 166 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,680 Mary Phillips-Sandy: of any president in history. You were handpicked for leadership 167 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:02,440 Mary Phillips-Sandy: in one of our nation's most pivotal hours." 168 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,840 Mary Phillips-Sandy: No pressure, right? And so he was saying, "I beg 169 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: you to renounce the practice of astrology in the White House. 170 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,160 Mary Phillips-Sandy: To make a statement now would be an act of 171 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,800 Mary Phillips-Sandy: courage and pleasing to God. But if you fail to 172 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,960 Mary Phillips-Sandy: do so, you legitimize astrology and the occult and set 173 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,199 Mary Phillips-Sandy: our nation on a collision course with God." 174 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: I don't know why, but I always sort of bristle 175 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,080 Mangesh Hattikudur: when I hear things like this. There is such hypocrisy 176 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,199 Mangesh Hattikudur: in what sort of magical thinking we're okay with as 177 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: a country. Like if a televangelist goes into tongues and 178 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: prophesies that Reagan has to be the next president because 179 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:45,679 Mangesh Hattikudur: God told him, that is totally okay. Western miracles don't 180 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: bother the base, But if an astrologer makes a prediction, 181 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,360 Mangesh Hattikudur: that's blasphemy. It just feels silly that a president should 182 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: be lauded for believing in one of those ideas but 183 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,920 Mangesh Hattikudur: threatened for believing in the other. 184 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: It reminds me of this feeling I had as a kid, 185 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,959 Mangesh Hattikudur: totally the opposite of my dad's optimism about who was 186 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,080 Mangesh Hattikudur: allowed to be president. The fact that I was born 187 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,120 Mangesh Hattikudur: brown and Hindu, that I had a name that was unpronounceable. 188 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: It seemingly crippled my chances from the start. I mean, 189 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:21,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: the Indian kids who were ten years older than me 190 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: and wanted to be politicians, the Bobby Jindal's and Nikki Haley's, 191 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: they always seemed to convert to Christianity and change their 192 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:31,200 Mangesh Hattikudur: names along the way. 193 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:32,920 Bobby Jindal: You know, I wish I could tell you I had 194 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,120 Bobby Jindal: the sun to epiphany. There was no moment on that 195 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,040 Bobby Jindal: road to Damascus where it was that easy for me. 196 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,679 Nikki Haley: Christianity spoke to me at a time where I needed 197 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,120 Nikki Haley: a connection, and so no political pressure should never change 198 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,559 Nikki Haley: a person. I am my parents daughter. 199 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,800 Mangesh Hattikudur: Maybe that's why I'm so interested in Ronald Reagan. Because 200 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:57,360 Mangesh Hattikudur: even though he's seen as this ultimate American; this American 201 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:57,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: mascot 202 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,320 Ronald Reagan: For those who have abandoned hope, we'll restore hope, and 203 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,079 Ronald Reagan: we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make 204 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:06,760 Ronald Reagan: America great again. 205 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,200 Mangesh Hattikudur: By dabbling in astrology, he got away with something that 206 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: doesn't feel American at all. 207 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,880 Mary Phillips-Sandy: So, right after Don Reagan's book came out and broke 208 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,160 Mary Phillips-Sandy: this story of astrology in the White House, Ronald Reagan 209 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,920 Mary Phillips-Sandy: and George Bush, who was then Vice President, were walking 210 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,600 Mary Phillips-Sandy: to a press conference in the in the Rose Garden. 211 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,000 Reporter: Mr President, would you continue to allow astrology to play 212 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:39,396 Reporter: a part in the makeup of your daily schedule, sir? 213 00:13:39,396 --> 00:13:39,397 crowd: [boos] Knock it off, man! 214 00:13:39,397 --> 00:13:39,400 Ronald Reagan: You asked for it. I can’t, because I never did. 215 00:13:39,397 --> 00:13:46,360 Mangesh Hattikudur: This is not the man I watched in first grade 216 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,439 Mangesh Hattikudur: reminding us that science can be heartbreak, but it is 217 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:55,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: always progress. I mean, this man is struggling. Like, listen 218 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:56,720 Mangesh Hattikudur: to this from May seventeenth. 219 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,920 Ronald Reagan: This was all once again smoke and mirrors, and we 220 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,600 Ronald Reagan: made no decisions on it, and we're not binding our 221 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,040 Ronald Reagan: lives to this. And I don't mean to offend anyone 222 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,400 Ronald Reagan: who does believe in it. 223 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,000 Ronald Reagan: So right there, he takes a moment to make sure 224 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,600 Ronald Reagan: he's not offending anyone who believes in astrology. And then 225 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,413 Ronald Reagan: a reporter pounces. 226 00:14:25,413 --> 00:14:25,460 Reporter: Do you believe in it? 227 00:14:25,460 --> 00:14:25,473 Ronald Reagan: What? 228 00:14:25,473 --> 00:14:25,531 Reporter: Do YOU believe in it. 229 00:14:25,531 --> 00:14:25,957 Ronald Reagan: I don’t guide my life by it, but I won’t answer the question the other way, because I don’t know enough about it to say is there something to it or not. 230 00:14:25,957 --> 00:14:41,360 Mangesh Hattikudur: Belief is hard to talk about. It's confusing. Sometimes belief 231 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: is just the collective sway of these tiny tendrils of influence. 232 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,920 Mangesh Hattikudur: Like it's not some hard and fast tenets. I mean, 233 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,680 Mangesh Hattikudur: you hear it in Reagan's words, right, like talking about 234 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: belief is so hard that one of the most gifted politicians. 235 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,800 Mangesh Hattikudur: Stumbles through his answer, and he twists his words into 236 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: some think so convoluted it barely has meaning anymore. Except 237 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: Reagan is not being honest here because astrology had definitely 238 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: played a role in his daily and his political life. 239 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: And you don't have to take our word for it, 240 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:26,280 Mangesh Hattikudur: you can take his straight from his 1965 autobiography. So let's turn back the clocks and investigate, right after this break. 241 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:50,360 Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER TWO: WHAT WOULD NANCY DO? 242 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: The strange thing is, for decades, Ron and Nancy's interest 243 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: in astrology was an open secret. Or at least it 244 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:02,200 Mangesh Hattikudur: had been. 245 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:32,479 Mangesh Hattikudur: Astrology was this California thing. And it was also a showbiz thing. And the Reagans and their friends, they enjoyed rubbing shoulders with people like LA Times astrologer Carroll Righter. Because, like People Magazine put it, Righter was a celebrity in his own right. Quote, “Righter was the confidant of the rich and famous, who saw him less as a backdoor soothsayer than as social equal. His zodiac parties in the fifties were highlights of every season. Fish for swimming in his pool for the Pisces party, and he rented a live lion for a Leo party.” 246 00:16:32,479 --> 00:17:00,280 Mangesh Hattikudur: As Ronald wrote in his 1965 autobiography, Where's The Rest Of Me?, “Every morning, Nancy and I turn to see what he has to say about people of our respective birth signs.” Horoscopes and astrology, it was no big deal, and a part of their daily morning routine. They like to check in and contemplate how the stars might affect their day, and they embraced the culture. Around that same time, Nancy started paying Righter for his astrological advice. 247 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:02,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: Then came the election. 248 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,159 Mangesh Hattikudur: In late nineteen sixty six, after Ronald Reagan won the 249 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,359 Mangesh Hattikudur: governor's race, he scheduled his oath to take place, specifically 250 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:19,159 Mangesh Hattikudur: at twelve sixteen am on January 2nd, 1967. The timing of this 251 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,359 Mangesh Hattikudur: did not make any sense unless you were looking at 252 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,080 Mangesh Hattikudur: the stars. It turns out that exact time corresponded to 253 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: Jupiter rising, and if you're a believer, starting your term 254 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: at that moment would make it blessed, prosperous. 255 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,920 Mangesh Hattikudur: When the outgoing governor, Edmund Brown got wind of the story, 256 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: he leaked it to the press and Reagan's team immediately 257 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: went into spin mode. Right so, Reagan had a spokesperson 258 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: tell reporters that he didn't believe in astrology. The staffer 259 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: even took it further. He said Reagan was so averse 260 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: to astrology that he had only ever seen a horoscope 261 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:01,680 Mangesh Hattikudur: by accident, which obviously wasn't true. But the craziest part 262 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: of all this, like the reason we're talking about this? 263 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: It means that Don Regan's book wasn't even the president's 264 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: first astrology-related scandal. 265 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:13,600 Mangesh Hattikudur: But let's talk about Nancy. 266 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: When I started looking into this, the first place I 267 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: looked was Nancy Reagan's memoir because I wanted to hear 268 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,480 Mary Phillips-Sandy: her side of the story. It's called My Turn, and 269 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,760 Mary Phillips-Sandy: it was very pointedly a rebuke to Don Regan's book 270 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,919 Mary Phillips-Sandy: the year prior. And she basically disputed everything he said 271 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,960 Mary Phillips-Sandy: and downplayed the role that her astrologer friend played in 272 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,840 Mary Phillips-Sandy: the President's life, in her life, in everything. 273 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,800 Mary Phillips-Sandy: And she said it was only minor schedule changes and 274 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,040 Mary Phillips-Sandy: it only came about because she was so worried for 275 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,400 Mary Phillips-Sandy: her husband's safety after the assassination attempt in 1981. And 276 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,199 Mary Phillips-Sandy: that she was driven to do this out of a 277 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,359 Mary Phillips-Sandy: sense of duty and guilt. If you really want to 278 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,560 Mary Phillips-Sandy: trace the influence of astrology on the White House, this 279 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,720 Mary Phillips-Sandy: is the moment that Nancy Reagan started casting about for help. 280 00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,800 Mary Phillips-Sandy: And it was her friend MERV Griffin-- 281 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,680 Chuck Woolery: Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Wheel of Fortune. I’d like to introduce Susan Stafford, our hostess.. 282 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: Yes game show legend MERV Griffin who introduced her to 283 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:11,200 Mangesh Hattikudur: Joan Quigley. 284 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,399 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Joan Quigley was this Vassar graduate. She was very smart. 285 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,760 Mary Phillips-Sandy: She came from a very wealthy Nob Hill, San Francisco family. Initially, 286 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,640 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Joan really tried to downplay her role in the Reagan's 287 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: lives because Nancy had asked her to do that. As 288 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,520 Mary Phillips-Sandy: all of this controversy was boiling over, Joan really stuck 289 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,800 Mary Phillips-Sandy: to the party line that: well, no, I didn't have 290 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,119 Mary Phillips-Sandy: that much influence. But when Nancy's book came out, I 291 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,399 Mary Phillips-Sandy: think at that point Joan was like, "screw you, Nancy." 292 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:40,880 Mary Phillips-Sandy: You know? "It's me time, now!" 293 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,840 Mary Phillips-Sandy: She became briefly the most famous astrologer in the world, right? 294 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,840 Mary Phillips-Sandy: She was going to take advantage of it. And so 295 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,440 Mary Phillips-Sandy: she started telling the story that in fact she had 296 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:50,640 Mary Phillips-Sandy: controlled everything. 297 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: It's true Nancy's astrologer would take credit for helping to 298 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,719 Mangesh Hattikudur: appoint some justices, keeping the president safe, and even thawing 299 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,120 Mangesh Hattikudur: the Cold War. But the question emerged: just how influential 300 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: was she and how much did she have the president's 301 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: ear on foreign policy? But before we talk about Nancy's friend... 302 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:23,039 Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER THREE: A SHORT AND INCOMPLETE LIST OF MODERN POLITICIANS WHO USE ASTROLOGY 303 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:26,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: If Joe Biden was consulting an astrologer on major American issues, 304 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,359 Mangesh Hattikudur: how would you feel? Would you vote for an astrology believer? 305 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,520 Mangesh Hattikudur: We interrupted a New York City dinner party to ask 306 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: that very same question. 307 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:45,580 Woman 1: It would feel more like, um, the president was just rolling the dice, if that was how he was making decisions. 308 00:20:45,580 --> 00:20:54,794 Woman 2: Yes, I would vote for a presidential candidate that used astrology to guide their decision making, and I would think that they were very wise. 309 00:20:54,794 --> 00:21:07,665 Man 1: Absolutely not. For as much as I like the astrology and the meaning behind that, I think that there is, uh, absolutely no connection between being a great president and reading the, the stars. 310 00:21:07,665 --> 00:21:10,000 Man 2: It's just not politically correct. 311 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: But the truth is, Reagan's interest in astrology does not 312 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:23,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: make him an outlier. Here's a list of modern politicians 313 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: who read their horoscope and checked it twice. 314 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,071 Group of kids shouting: One! Richard Nixon 315 00:21:30,071 --> 00:21:33,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: Nixon was a quirky guy. Not only did he ban 316 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: soup in the White House and eat cottage cheese with ketchup, 317 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,880 Mangesh Hattikudur: but he also valued the advice of astrologer Jeanne Dixon, who, 318 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,360 Mangesh Hattikudur: to be fair, also gave advice to Franklin Roosevelt, JFK 319 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,919 Mangesh Hattikudur: and the Reagans. But Nixon called her his soothsayer, and 320 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,920 Mangesh Hattikudur: not only did Jeanne visit him in the White House, 321 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: but she sent the president copious letters on national security predictions. 322 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: In fact, in nineteen seventy two, when she warned a 323 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: threat on American soil after the Munich Olympics, Nixon used 324 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,560 Mangesh Hattikudur: her intel to alert Kissinger and to assemble a counter 325 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:06,639 Mangesh Hattikudur: terrorism unit. 326 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:09,639 Group of kids shouting: Two! Boris Yeltsin. 327 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,399 Mangesh Hattikudur: The only thing I remember about Boris Yeltsin is that 328 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: one time when he was visiting Washington, he almost caused 329 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: this international incident because he left the White House grounds 330 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,720 Mangesh Hattikudur: drunk in just his underwear, desperate to find some late 331 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: night pizza. This is true, which I can respect. But 332 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: Yelson was also an astrology head. During his presidency, a 333 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: naval captain revealed to The Economist that Russia had a 334 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: secret institute that employed "military astrologers." 335 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,086 Group of kids shouting: Three! Francois Mitterand 336 00:22:48,086 --> 00:23:30,766 Mangesh Hattikudur: When the French president's wife made accusations that Mitterand was only interested in his astrologer because he was sleeping with her, the astrologer, a former model and actress, released tapes of their conversations to show that they had a purely professional relationship. And on these tapes were incredible things, like Mitterand trying to understand the power struggles in Russia. Through astrology, he was using the stars to vet cabinet members, and most curiously, he was taking astrological advice on how to handle France's role and entry into the Gulf War. 337 00:23:30,766 --> 00:23:48,423 Mangesh Hattikudur: Anyway, all that's to say that a handful of astrologers have had way more sway on world events than any of us would like to think. 338 00:23:48,423 --> 00:23:51,080 Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER FOUR: WHAT WOULD JOAN DO? 339 00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:58,120 Mangesh Hattikudur: If we're to believe Joan Quigley, one of the many things she helped make happen was Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's appointment. She also claims to have planned the president's debate times and delayed the timing of Reagan's cancer surgery, but perhaps most importantly, Quigley takes credit for changing the president's opinion about Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. As reported in the New York Times, Quigley battled to the mat for three hours to convince Nancy Reagan that her husband could trust Gorbachev. As Quigley said, “the placement of his ruler, Mercury, symbolizes to me that despite his Russian training and origins, Gorbachev has the instincts of the humanitarian.” Joan also convinced the president to work towards disarmament, and to extend his trip in Europe to hammer out an agreement. 340 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,840 Mary Phillips-Sandy: The one thing everybody agrees on is that Joan Quigley 341 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,919 Mary Phillips-Sandy: actually did help decide when the president traveled, because that 342 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: was Nancy's big fear after the assassination attempt. And so 343 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,520 Mary Phillips-Sandy: I think everybody is, is pretty much in agreement that yes, Joan 344 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,439 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Quigly helped identify days where maybe it wouldn't be a 345 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,520 Mary Phillips-Sandy: good idea to go anywhere. That, you know, for safety's sake, 346 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,119 Mary Phillips-Sandy: you might not want to fly on that day. Maybe 347 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: fly the next day, or fly a couple hours later, 348 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,880 Mary Phillips-Sandy: and that will be safer for you. And nobody really 349 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,399 Mary Phillips-Sandy: had a problem with that. Then it kind of shades 350 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,520 Mary Phillips-Sandy: into this thing of like, well, if he's not making 351 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,400 Mary Phillips-Sandy: a public appearance for a week, that's a big deal, right? 352 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,240 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Because that affects what he's able to do as president. 353 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,720 Mary Phillips-Sandy: And um certainly Joan coming out and saying that she 354 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,200 Mary Phillips-Sandy: literally told him that based on his chart and Gorbachev's chart, 355 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,800 Mary Phillips-Sandy: that they should sit down and talk. I mean that's 356 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:36,840 Mary Phillips-Sandy: really explosive. 357 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: Well, especially at the the time, right? Like we are 358 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: at the height of the Cold War; there's like nuclear 359 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: proliferation on both sides in a massive way, and people 360 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: are worried that someone will hit a button and cause 361 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: the end of the earth. Like that's-- the idea of 362 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: talking with your enemy at that time was pretty significant. 363 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,439 Mary Phillips-Sandy: People were very upset at the idea that this random 364 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,119 Mary Phillips-Sandy: astrologer was influencing such big decisions when there was so 365 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:04,840 Mary Phillips-Sandy: much at stake. 366 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: Do you think Reagan was actually using this advice? Was 367 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: this just going to his wife? What was the deal here? 368 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,879 Mary Phillips-Sandy: So that was sort of the other question. Was this 369 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,280 Mary Phillips-Sandy: Nancy's fault? Because everything back then was Nancy's fault. She 370 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,240 Mary Phillips-Sandy: had this image of being this evil puppeteer of her 371 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,679 Mary Phillips-Sandy: helpless husband who loved her so much he would just 372 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,760 Mary Phillips-Sandy: do whatever she wanted 373 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,639 Mangesh Hattikudur: [static sound] Just a quick aside: Nancy Reagan was indeed 374 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:33,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: ambitious for her husband; incredibly ambitious. Jimmy Stewart once said 375 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,080 Mangesh Hattikudur: that had Ronald been married to Nancy earlier, he would 376 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,840 Mangesh Hattikudur: have won an Academy award. And Reagan's aides admit this too. 377 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,720 Mangesh Hattikudur: They say that without Nancy there would have been no 378 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,439 Mangesh Hattikudur: Governor Reagan, no President Reagan. She absolutely took a lot 379 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,600 Mangesh Hattikudur: of heat for allegedly being the power behind the throne. 380 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: And so when this came out? That it was Nancy's 381 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,159 Mangesh Hattikudur: friend making these calls? That was more evidence that she 382 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:13,280 Mangesh Hattikudur: was actually controlling him. 383 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,560 Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER FIVE: SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL 384 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: Earlier in the show, we skimmed over the fact that 385 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,359 Mangesh Hattikudur: there was an assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan. As he 386 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: was leaving a speech and walking to his limo, John 387 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,359 Mangesh Hattikudur: Hinckley Jr, a delusional individual who was trying to impress 388 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:36,120 Mangesh Hattikudur: Jodie Foster, pulled out a Rome RG 1422 caliber, and he shot it 389 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,200 Mangesh Hattikudur: six times in less than two seconds. 390 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:47,756 audio clip: [News tape of the assassination attempt, shouting, gunfire] 391 00:27:47,756 --> 00:28:11,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: The first five shots missed their mark. One hit Reagan's press secretary Jim Brady in the head. Another hit an agent in the stomach as he put his body on the line. But as the Secret Service pushed the president into the limo, the final bullet bounced off the car, ricocheting into the president's lung and lodging just 25 millimeters from his heart. Few people would know just how close he'd come to death 392 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,673 White House spokesperson: This is to confirm the statements made at George Washington Hospital that the president was shot once in the left side this afternoon as he left the hotel. Mrs. Reagan is currently with the president at the hospital. 393 00:28:25,673 --> 00:28:35,679 Mangesh Hattikudur: It happened early in his presidency on March, and the 394 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: truth is, in most discussions of Reagan's legacy, it's glossed over. 395 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,360 Mangesh Hattikudur: In his obituary in the New York Times, the shooting 396 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,520 Mangesh Hattikudur: isn't even mentioned until the 25th paragraph. So in the 397 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: scope of things, it just isn't thought about that much. 398 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: But for Nancy Reagan, it was something entirely different. Right, 399 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:09,880 Mangesh Hattikudur: This was something she could ever ever forget. As I 400 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,720 Mangesh Hattikudur: was trying to sort through all of this and put 401 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:18,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: Nancy in context, Mary sent me one more clip. Ye, 402 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: Nancy's appearance on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. 403 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,400 Johnny Carson: Can I ask you about the astrology? You get tired 404 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,356 Johnny Carson: of answering that question? 405 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:28,478 Nancy Reagan: No. 406 00:29:28,478 --> 00:29:32,012 Johnny Carson: That's one of the things, you know that, uh, when it hit the papers, wow. 407 00:29:32,012 --> 00:29:32,400 Nancy Reagan: I know. 408 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: If you're looking at the video, Nancy so clearly doesn't 409 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: want to talk about this, but she will. I know 410 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,680 Mangesh Hattikudur: she's a trained actor. I know she's good at playing 411 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: the role of first lady. But still hearing her say 412 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: why she put faith in astrology, why she needed to 413 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: put faith in it, Well, it breaks your heart where 414 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:55,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: it breaks mine. 415 00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:00,840 Nancy Reagan: You can't, you can't really describe what you go through. Uh, 416 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,880 Nancy Reagan: when your husband is shot and almost dies. And most 417 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,920 Nancy Reagan: people didn't know that. There were... there were two times 418 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,720 Nancy Reagan: that they came to me and said they couldn't find 419 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,400 Nancy Reagan: his pulse. Um, he was very close to going in 420 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,960 Nancy Reagan: the shock. And if he had, then, that would have been it. 421 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,400 Nancy Reagan: And not everybody has their way of of handling that 422 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,080 Nancy Reagan: particular kind of trauma, and that particular kind of trauma is... it's, 423 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,240 Nancy Reagan: is very special. And I talked to my minister, I 424 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,240 Nancy Reagan: talked to friends. And then I had a friend called 425 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,040 Nancy Reagan: me and say, gee, they she he had talked to 426 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,480 Nancy Reagan: this girl and woman and, uh, she could have told me 427 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,447 Nancy Reagan: that Ronnie shouldn't have done a thing on that day. 428 00:30:45,447 --> 00:30:45,600 Johnny Carson: Right. 429 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,400 Nancy Reagan: And I thought, my Lord, I could have prevented if 430 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,880 Nancy Reagan: you know, and um, so I called her. I didn't 431 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,760 Nancy Reagan: think I was doing anything so wrong, and I still 432 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,080 Nancy Reagan: don't think I did anything so wrong. It helped me 433 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,686 Nancy Reagan: through a very... really, a very rough time, very tough time. 434 00:31:05,686 --> 00:31:08,720 Mangesh Hattikudur: There's so many things about the ways the Reagans tell 435 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: their story-- the way they talk about astrology-- that doesn't 436 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: really add up. From the governor's oath to the idea 437 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: that Ronald had never seen his horoscope except by accident, 438 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: to dozens of other inconsistencies. Quigley had met the Reagan's 439 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: before she actually worked on Ronald Reagan's governor's campaign. But 440 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: none of that stops this part from being true. Nancy 441 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: was desperately trying to keep her husband safe. That same year, 442 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,080 Mangesh Hattikudur: there would be an assassination attempt on Pope John Paul 443 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: II's life, Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat would be killed, and 444 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: world leaders really were under threat. 445 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: Nancy's guilt? It kicked in because of all this. Like 446 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,720 Mangesh Hattikudur: why wouldn't she try everything in her power to do that? 447 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,200 Nancy Reagan: But there's changes that were made were things like, uh, would 448 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,840 Nancy Reagan: be better to leave at two o'clock or two-thirty? I mean, 449 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,360 Nancy Reagan: you know, there wasn't any great and there were no 450 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,960 Nancy Reagan: political decisions ever made on astrology. I didn't hurt anybody 451 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,600 Nancy Reagan: except I embarrassed Ronnie. I was sorry for that. 452 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:23,760 Mangesh Hattikudur: It's not that I'm enamored with Nancy Reagan all of 453 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,800 Mangesh Hattikudur: a sudden, but I don't laugh at her anymore. Because 454 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: faced with the option to do nothing, or do something-- 455 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: Nancy picked up the phones and worked them. She found 456 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: the best astrologer she could. She color-coated her husband's calendar. 457 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,800 Mangesh Hattikudur: She feuded with Reagan's chief of staff over the details 458 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,400 Mangesh Hattikudur: of his schedule, and she fought fiercely to keep her 459 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: husband out of harm's way. And seeing the love she 460 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:54,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: poured into protecting him, it makes me feel guilty because 461 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: I didn't do everything I could for my dad. I 462 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: really didn't. Sure, I raced to see him, I tussled 463 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: his hair, I kissed his head. I dressed and shaved him. 464 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: I walked him to him from the bathroom when he 465 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: was too weak to lift himself up from his chair. 466 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: I helped his frail body in and out of bed, 467 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: and stuffed a pillow under his knees. I pulled his 468 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,880 Mangesh Hattikudur: socks off his shiny, hairless legs to keep him warm 469 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,520 Mangesh Hattikudur: when he napped. And I fetched his pulp mystery books 470 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,800 Mangesh Hattikudur: and refilled his bowl of shelled pistachoes. I sat in 471 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,560 Mangesh Hattikudur: the hospital trying to decipher his mumbles and his moans, 472 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,240 Mangesh Hattikudur: and I put chips of ice into his mouth just 473 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: to watch him crunch at it and then smile. And 474 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,120 Mangesh Hattikudur: when he could barely respond anymore and the treatments weren't working, 475 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,520 Mangesh Hattikudur: I signed his life away. I ordered the morphine and 476 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,800 Mangesh Hattikudur: brought him home in an ambulance so he could breathe 477 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: his last breaths at home. I tried, I really did. 478 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,200 Mangesh Hattikudur: I didn't do enough. I didn't pray, not the way 479 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,920 Mangesh Hattikudur: my mom and sister did. I didn't hunt for an 480 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,960 Mangesh Hattikudur: Ayurvedic cure or research alternative medicines. I didn't place a 481 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,440 Mangesh Hattikudur: bet on the magical because my belief is limited to 482 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: what I understand. And I live with that guilt, not 483 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,719 Mangesh Hattikudur: that there's any logic to it. Because even if I 484 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:24,040 Mangesh Hattikudur: didn't believe, my dad did. And couldn't I have put 485 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:30,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: aside my pride to give him everything because everything is 486 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:31,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: what he gave me. 487 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,359 Mangesh Hattikudur: Next week on Skyline Drive, no more being sad! Next week 488 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,759 Mangesh Hattikudur: is 100% fun. We are talking to Moneyball statisticians who 489 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: use astrology, CNN's house astrologer. They used to have a 490 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,319 Mangesh Hattikudur: house astrologer, astrology and law school, and BTS. That's right! 491 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,480 Mangesh Hattikudur: We're going to use astrology to figure out Korean Supergroup 492 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,799 Mangesh Hattikudur: BTS's next steps. Maybe? I don't know. I can't see 493 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:34,200 Mangesh Hattikudur: into the future, but I can promise it will be fun. 494 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,000 Mangesh Hattikudur: Thank you so much for listening. This show was written 495 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,680 Mangesh Hattikudur: by Taffy Brodesser-Akner Executive crews Brodesser-Akner. Based on a book 496 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,880 Mangesh Hattikudur: by Taffy Brodesser... I'm so sorry. Thoese are credits for 497 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,160 Mangesh Hattikudur: Fleischman's in Trouble. I'm reading the wrong credits. That's a 498 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,239 Mangesh Hattikudur: fantastic show. Go stream it after this. 499 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,640 Mangesh Hattikudur: This show: Skyline Drive, is a production of Kaleidoscope and 500 00:36:03,680 --> 00:38:35,680 Mangesh Hattikudur: iHeart Podcast. It’s hosted and written by me, Mangesh Hattikudur. But you would not have made it to the third episode if all of these lovely people: Mary Phillips-Sandy is our congee-loving Supervising Producer! And she’s now read every book in the world about the Reagans. Go quiz her! Mitra Bonshahi is our delightful Senior Producer and gets the best wild tape, seriously. Mark Lotto is our Story Editor and made me move Nancy Reagan from a single paragraph in Episode 1 to her own episode, and this show is so much better for it. This episode was mixed and mastered all the way in Bangalore by the talented Dhruv Shiva-Rao, with scoring, as always, from Botany. Check out his Soundcloud. The insane music in between is courtesy of the dopest Indian record label Azadi Records, and my pal Himanshu Suri, and so many others. If you want to hear more of all this music, we linked a mixtape in the show notes. Ahhh! The kids were so great. Numbers and politicians voiced by my Dean Street neighbors: Ries, the resident pizza expert; Liev, the resident panda expert; Miriam, who does the best Broadway showtunes in my backyard; and Yuki, who is very, very good at pointing out snails. Also my very sweet and very noisy roommates Henry and Ruby. Special thanks to my remarkable neighbor and counsel Rachel Strom for vetting this episode, and the The Reagan Library, The For Your Ears Only/Newsweek On Air collection, and Carson Entertainment Group for all of their incredible archive. Thank you so much! Additional production and research support from the wonderful Anna Rubanova, Soundboard, Lizzie “the natural QB” Jacobs, my talented aunt Suman Bakshi and notorious snooker hustler Arjun Bakshi. The show is Executive Produced from iHeart by my good pals Nikki Ettore and Katrina Norvell. Also, all my brilliant pals at Kaleidoscope: Oz Woloshyn, Kate Osborn, Costas Linos and Vahini Shori. Also, Cheezy. Feels like Cheezy needs a shout out. Special thanks to all my friends at iHeart, Shanta and Saurabh, my family everywhere. Dan Taberski, who read this episode’s warning! The day I got into podcasting I binged the first four episodes of Missing Richard Simmons, and every one of his shows—Running from Cops, Surviving Y2k, The Line—is so incredibly good. In fact, stop listening and go stream one of his shows right now. And just one last thank you as always 501 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,303 Mangesh Hattikudur: to my Amma and my Dad, Lalita and Umesh Hattikudur, 502 00:38:40,303 --> 00:38:43,080 Mangesh Hattikudur: who I have to thank my lucky stars for. Thank 503 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:53,320 Mangesh Hattikudur: you so much for listening.