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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.

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Speaker 1: Never told your protection of iHeartRadio, and today we are

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Speaker 1: thrilled to once again be joined by the wondrous, the magnificent,

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Speaker 1: the fabulous Eves for a female first. Thank you Eves

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Speaker 1: for joining us. Thank you for having me again. Yes,

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Speaker 1: oh always always are excited to have you on. How

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Speaker 1: have you been, Eaves? It feels like forever, even though

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Speaker 1: I know it hasn't. But weeks feel like years and

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Speaker 1: the months feel like centuries at this point, so time

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Speaker 1: is all askew. But I've been doing well. I've been

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Speaker 1: trying to be present and every moment for the most part. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's good. That's good. I feel like it's been really busy,

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Speaker 1: and yesterday was like a I literally had a moment

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Speaker 1: where I thought of which had put a curse on me.

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Speaker 1: But today it's going better. So like everything was like

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Speaker 1: things were falling off my ceiling, my internet wasn't working.

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Speaker 1: It was it was a day, as they say, But

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Speaker 1: I'm back feel better now, And it was a counterbalance

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Speaker 1: to having the perfect weekend as you said, and needed

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Speaker 1: to rebalance itself. So what do you do when you

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Speaker 1: think that a which has put a curse on you,

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Speaker 1: like so I would I would think that ostensibly, if

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Speaker 1: you don't do anything about it, like the curse may

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Speaker 1: still be there. Well, that's vaguely threatening me. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that I did it or that I know who

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Speaker 1: did it. I'm just saying, is there any measure you

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Speaker 1: have in place to be able to get rid of

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Speaker 1: a curse? If you think that there's one there? I

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Speaker 1: I'm so far just banking on hope and nothing has

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Speaker 1: fallen down yet today in the Internet's working and that's it.

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Speaker 1: But you're right, I'm gonna have to reevaluate. Like later,

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Speaker 1: I ended up on which TikTok, which is to talk

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Speaker 1: us with the witches, and they talk about how you

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Speaker 1: know if you're cursed and what you need to do.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like unless you know exactly who cursed

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Speaker 1: you and what origin of like witchcraft they're from, you

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Speaker 1: really can't do anything about it. So you better hope

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Speaker 1: it was a white person's curse. That's what it seemed like.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, like these Asian curses that are really

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Speaker 1: like scary, So I'm gonna stay away from like making

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Speaker 1: Asian people really angry also sounds kind of I don't

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Speaker 1: know it. I'm just there seemed to be a whole

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Speaker 1: like like deep dive and this like tree of these

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Speaker 1: are the types, and I'm like, oh my, okay, in

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Speaker 1: a second, Samantha and I are going to be like,

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Speaker 1: let us tell you why we gathered. That's all here today. Whoa,

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Speaker 1: That's actually what I've been doing for the last months

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Speaker 1: since I see you. Samantha and I have been getting

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Speaker 1: together in private and planning how exactly how we'll curse

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Speaker 1: you comes out. It was kind of hilarious and how

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Speaker 1: many things just like immediately back to back quite wrong,

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Speaker 1: but well I'm impressed. If I want you, you got

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Speaker 1: my attention. No, we didn't well, I didn't speak. I

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Speaker 1: don't know which breath I TikTok teaches me. Oh boy,

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Speaker 1: that's very much. Okay, all right, I'll take your word

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Speaker 1: for it for now. How are you, Samantha, Oh me,

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Speaker 1: I am here. Uh that's that's yeah, that's I actually

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Speaker 1: got cleaned up today because I realized it says being

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Speaker 1: in pandemic life that I kind of sludge around. I

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Speaker 1: think for the most part today I was like, you

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Speaker 1: know what, let's actually act like I'm going to work

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Speaker 1: and take a shower and get cleaned up, maybe moisturize

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Speaker 1: my face, and time take my medications and time which

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Speaker 1: I didn't actually but all these things and like, so

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Speaker 1: for today, I feel like it feels like a good start.

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Speaker 1: So and and being here with y'all and having this

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Speaker 1: long I feel like we've talked for a while now,

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Speaker 1: and I loved that. I love that we get to

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Speaker 1: talk and catch up. So it feels like a good day.

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Speaker 1: Oh nice, Yeah, that is nice. That is something that

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Speaker 1: I'm slowly working on. Two because I've just during the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: have been like I'll fix that later, or I'll deal

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Speaker 1: with that later, and now it's time to start dealing

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Speaker 1: with some of the things. Forever things have become urgent.

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Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, maybe it's the aura in your house being like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you neglect the these things, so we're just gonna fall

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Speaker 1: upon and we know you're easily startled, so this will

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Speaker 1: be fun. It's true. I kind of wish we had

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Speaker 1: a video of all these things and you, oh my gosh, it,

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Speaker 1: depending on the music he played, it could have been

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Speaker 1: like comedic or horrified. I can't even describe it. It It

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Speaker 1: was wild WHOA Moving on, I am excited for the

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Speaker 1: person you brought for us to discuss today, Eves, who

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Speaker 1: are we talking about? So today we're talking about Nellie Crawford,

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Speaker 1: who is also more famously known as Madame Soultawan. So

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Speaker 1: Madame Soultawan is the name that I'll be using throughout

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Speaker 1: this episode to refer to her. And she was the

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Speaker 1: first black American to be hired by a major movie

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Speaker 1: producer on a continuing basis and that was throughout Hollywood history,

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Speaker 1: so she has a super super long history and experience

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Speaker 1: in Hollywood. But oftentimes she wasn't uncredited in the movies

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Speaker 1: that she was in, so there may even be more

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Speaker 1: roles that she played throughout her life that we don't

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Speaker 1: know about. And many of the roles that she did

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Speaker 1: play were uncovered in different ways through different researchers work.

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Speaker 1: So super grateful to be able to know more about

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Speaker 1: Madame soul Towan. And her story is really interesting, so

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Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to getting into it. Yeah. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a fascinating one for sure, So it shouldn't get started. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's so, there are discrepancies around some of the details

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Speaker 1: of her early life, so around her birthday and her parents,

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Speaker 1: But as far as we know, she was born on

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Speaker 1: March seventh, eighteen seventy three, in Louisville, Kentucky. Her father

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Speaker 1: was named Silas Crawford Wan, and her mother was named

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Speaker 1: Mary Kennedy. There are other names that her mother has

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Speaker 1: been credited as having, but this is her mom's name

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Speaker 1: that was on her death certificate. So her father was

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Speaker 1: supposedly a traveling Hindu minister. But that's one of those

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Speaker 1: things that there are discrepancies around. As we know in

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Speaker 1: other episodes that we talked about on Female First, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of myth making that people, the people who

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Speaker 1: were talking about themselves have created around their lives for

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Speaker 1: different reasons. There were some sources that said Soultwan was

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Speaker 1: of art, that her father, Soultawan's father was of mixed

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Speaker 1: race like Indian or Hawaiian, but she is normally considered

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Speaker 1: a Black American. The origin of that name sold to

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Speaker 1: Wan isn't completely clear, so for people listening, they know

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Speaker 1: that it's spelled Sula te wa n, So there is

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Speaker 1: some mythmaking around why exactly that was her name, why

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Speaker 1: she chose to refer to herself in that way. If

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Speaker 1: you go look at her listings and the places that

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Speaker 1: she was credited. It that is the name that is used,

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Speaker 1: but it and the origin of her name, her skin color,

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Speaker 1: and then that mystery around her heritage that we just

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Speaker 1: talked about allowed her to access roles for a different

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Speaker 1: range of ethnicities. So in terms of the work that

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Speaker 1: her mother did, she did laundry for actresses, and Sultiwan

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Speaker 1: would help her mom deliver the laundry so that put

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Speaker 1: her in close proximity to the acting world. She would

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Speaker 1: drop the laundry off at the stage door, and then

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Speaker 1: she was allowed to stay and see the show. She

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Speaker 1: saw actresses like Mary Anderson and Fanny Import who will

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Speaker 1: come up later in her story as well, and helping

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Speaker 1: get some doors open. She would copy what the actors

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Speaker 1: did at school, and she drew inspiration from what she

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Speaker 1: saw and began desiring to be come an actor herself. So,

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Speaker 1: as we see and so many of these people's stories,

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Speaker 1: people's parents and the things that their parents got them

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Speaker 1: into really encourage them to go after what they wanted

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Speaker 1: or just to have interest in these things, and this

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Speaker 1: was the case in Sultawan's story. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: acting and dance lessons were costly and her mother couldn't

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Speaker 1: really afford them, so the mayor of Louisville, James Whylan,

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Speaker 1: offered her a part in a contest at Buckingham Theater.

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Speaker 1: She was one of many black girls who tried out

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Speaker 1: to win a prize for being the best buck and

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Speaker 1: wing dancer. So buck and wing dancing is just the

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Speaker 1: type of dancing that has like flips, stomps, wide arm

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Speaker 1: and leg movements and other movements, so it will look

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Speaker 1: familiar to a lot of us as it was an

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Speaker 1: early form or kind of a precursor to tap dancing.

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Speaker 1: Soultawan did end up winning the contest, and that earned

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Speaker 1: her a granite dishpan in Granite spoon, at least according

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Speaker 1: to the book The Negro Trailblazers of California. So after

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Speaker 1: that point, her mother let her do stage work occasionally,

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Speaker 1: and they eventually moved to Cincinnati, Ohio, so that they

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Speaker 1: could move her entertainment career fort So in Cincinnati, Soultawan

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Speaker 1: worked at the Dime Museum, and she worked at theaters,

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Speaker 1: and she eventually joined a company and called the Three

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Speaker 1: Black Cloaks. She did work under the moniker Creole Nail

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Speaker 1: and She gained a lot of acting experience in Cincinnati

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Speaker 1: and started her own company, which was called the Black

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Speaker 1: four hundred. That was a group that was made up

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Speaker 1: of sixteen performers and twelve musicians, and she toured with

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Speaker 1: them throughout the Eastern United States and then she formed

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Speaker 1: another company called the Rare Back Minstrels. Through all the

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Speaker 1: touring work that she did, she met Robert Reid Conley.

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Speaker 1: The two of them had three sons, though there were

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Speaker 1: some sources that claimed that they had more children. They

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Speaker 1: ended up moving to Arcadia, California, but Conley is reported

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Speaker 1: to have left the family only a few weeks after

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Speaker 1: Sultawan had their third son, So that created a lot

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Speaker 1: of financial economic challenges for her, as if it weren't

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Speaker 1: already hard enough for her to find work. But she

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Speaker 1: wanted to continue her acting career and she needed employment.

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Speaker 1: So the Associated Charities of Los Angeles ended up being

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Speaker 1: able to help her out. They got her family a

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Speaker 1: place to stay in Los Angeles and she ended up

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Speaker 1: finding work at the Pier Theater in Venice, California, which

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Speaker 1: wasn't the best paying, but it did help her get

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Speaker 1: some bills paid and it was heart finding acting work.

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Speaker 1: She was denied opportunities and she wasn't making much progress

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Speaker 1: and money in that field, but she continued pursuing her

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Speaker 1: acting goals nonetheless. And this is where filmmaker DW. Griffith

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Speaker 1: comes into the picture. So there are different reports of

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Speaker 1: her first meeting with Griffith. They swing from her being

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Speaker 1: confident and presenting herself as this exotic and multi ethnic person,

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Speaker 1: kind of hamming up you know, this is I'm a

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Speaker 1: day of soult to one and these are all the

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Speaker 1: things that I have to reports of her being kind

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Speaker 1: of self deprecating and being more so on the begging side,

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Speaker 1: saying please, I really need this for my children, you know.

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Speaker 1: Either way, he hired her pretty much immediately and she

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Speaker 1: is reported to have started out making three dollars a day.

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Speaker 1: She was first a maid for the white women actors

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Speaker 1: who were employed at that fine arts film company. And

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Speaker 1: if you hear that name d W. Griffith, it probably

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Speaker 1: rings a bell that most people probably know him for

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Speaker 1: the Birth of a Nation. That was her first on

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Speaker 1: screen role, and she played a maid there. When The

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Speaker 1: Birth of a Nation was first released, black people in

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Speaker 1: LA protested the film for its depictions of black people

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Speaker 1: and asked for the movie to be censored. And Sultiwan's

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Speaker 1: role in this story was that there was blowback who

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Speaker 1: for all of that that was directed at Sultiwan as

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Speaker 1: she was the only black woman who acted in the film,

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Speaker 1: and she was accused of instigating the protest, and she

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Speaker 1: soon was let go from the studio. She fought back

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Speaker 1: against this accusation and her dismissal, and the folks at

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Speaker 1: the studio then backpedaled and said that a white actor

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Speaker 1: had accused her of stealing a book. Anyway, she hired

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Speaker 1: a lawyer and she wrote a letter to Griffith and

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Speaker 1: she was soon rehired as an actor rather than a maid. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: she did get a contract with the studio, and this

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Speaker 1: made her the first black American woman to get a

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Speaker 1: contract with the major movie studio. And she did stay

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Speaker 1: close friends with Griffith, even with that conflict between the

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Speaker 1: two of them and of course Griffith's controversial history himself

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Speaker 1: in his filmmaking and the racist work that he created.

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Speaker 1: But according to sources, as her children even called him Papa,

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Speaker 1: that's how close they were. But nonetheless, from nineteen fifteen

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Speaker 1: and into the nineteen thirties, Sultawan appeared in many many films.

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Speaker 1: She started off in the silent era and was able

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Speaker 1: to transition pretty well into the talkies era. She was

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Speaker 1: in movies like Tarzan of the Apes in nineteen eighteen,

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Speaker 1: Uncle Tom's Cabin in nineteen twenty seven, and even King

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Speaker 1: Kong in nineteen thirty three, and in nineteen thirty seven

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Speaker 1: she played Titchuba, so speaking of witchcraft and getting curses

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Speaker 1: off of people that is relevant to not only this one.

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Speaker 1: She also had similar roles in other films as well,

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Speaker 1: and the film Made of Salem she played Tisiba, who

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Speaker 1: was an enslaved woman who was accused of practicing witchcraft

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Speaker 1: during the Salem witch trials. This was one of the

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Speaker 1: roles that she got a little bit more attention for,

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Speaker 1: but much of her work went largely unacknowledged, especially by

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Speaker 1: mainstream media. There were as more minor media and Black

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Speaker 1: American medias that did credit her roles in places like

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Speaker 1: The New York Times also noted her work and talked

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Speaker 1: about her as an actor, but in many of her

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Speaker 1: roles she remained uncredited. She played characters like servants, enslaved people,

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Speaker 1: and cooks, and she often acted In these Mammy archetypal roles,

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Speaker 1: she appeared with actors who were popular at the time

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Speaker 1: like Lillian g Dorothy Divor, and May Marsh and in

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Speaker 1: her role she was often depicted as subservient or a

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Speaker 1: moral so she was presented in sharp contrast to these

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Speaker 1: white actors kind of this person who was in the

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Speaker 1: background are always to play second fiddle and subservient to

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Speaker 1: the other people that she was acting in roles with.

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Speaker 1: She did appear in movies into the nineteen forties, though

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Speaker 1: not as many movies then as she did appearing in

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Speaker 1: previous decades, and she took some roles in the nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: but by then the work was starting to slow down.

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Speaker 1: In terms of her personal life, she did marry again.

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Speaker 1: She married a Frenchman named Anton Evanthor and in nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty four there was kind of a change in direction

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Speaker 1: in terms of her acting work. She acted in a

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Speaker 1: minor role that was also uncredited in Carmen Jones, which

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Speaker 1: was a musical by Auto Preminger that featured a black cast,

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Speaker 1: and in that she played Dorothy Dandridge's grandmother, which led

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Speaker 1: to rumors that she was Dorothy Dandridge's grandmother, but that

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Speaker 1: isn't true. She died on February first, nineteen fifty nine,

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Speaker 1: and then after her death there was a banquet to

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Speaker 1: honor her and she is buried at Valhalla Memorial Park

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Speaker 1: Cemetery in la And she was honored in the Black

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Speaker 1: Filmmaker's Hall of Fame by being inducted into it in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six. So there is a long history. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot that we can we can watch. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot that we have to watch about her that is

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Speaker 1: still left. And because her uncredited roles have now been

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Speaker 1: attributed to her, you know, we can go back and

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Speaker 1: look at some of those things and see the kind

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Speaker 1: of work that she did and all the flourish that

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Speaker 1: she have the and the turbines that she wore, and

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Speaker 1: the braids and the appearances that she had, which is

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Speaker 1: still cool. Yeah, And I'm really interested in, as you

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Speaker 1: said at the top, kind of the research that people

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Speaker 1: had to do to find her in these uncredited roles,

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Speaker 1: kind of piecing together and what else what else we

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Speaker 1: might find. Yeah, Yeah, I think that is kind of

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Speaker 1: a bittersweet thing or like a blessing and a curse

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Speaker 1: not to me too. On the nose because it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we have history of her that we know about now,

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Speaker 1: but then there are some things that still may be uncovered.

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Speaker 1: But also there's this kind of layer of her being

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Speaker 1: not visible in her actual roles, So she was written

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Speaker 1: into the roles to be this invisible person or this

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Speaker 1: person who was more so as a prop in the

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Speaker 1: work that she was doing, even if that wasn't always

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Speaker 1: the case in her performances, and that really wasn't the

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Speaker 1: case for all of her things, like the digibal role

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Speaker 1: was a lot more prominent than some others were, but

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Speaker 1: they're at the same time, the work of those people

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Speaker 1: uncovering also tie into that kind of similar at the

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Speaker 1: same time her being super visible when playing so many

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Speaker 1: different roles and being also invisible in the way that

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Speaker 1: the media didn't often recognize her work at all, and

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Speaker 1: the roles that she played themselves. So yeah, it's I'm

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Speaker 1: grateful to all the people who did find these older

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Speaker 1: sources and documents and reviews that mentioned her being and

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Speaker 1: works and the scenes that were taken out of works

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Speaker 1: that Sultan Mom was in. Yes, yes, it's always thanks

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Speaker 1: to all the people doing the research so we can

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Speaker 1: we can talk about people. Yeah, it's such a fascinating story,

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Speaker 1: and I do love the mythmaking aspects you discussives that

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Speaker 1: does come up in a lot of these and it's

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Speaker 1: always thanks to you for vying in these people to

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Speaker 1: us appreciate it so much. Yeah, I'm happy to How

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Speaker 1: beautiful is it to cease how much myth making is

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Speaker 1: part of people's stories, to see that they have the

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Speaker 1: imagination and the ability to because I think future side

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Speaker 1: is something that is so difficult for people who are

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Speaker 1: dealing with difficulties in the present moment, you know, speaking

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Speaker 1: of being present, It's like when you're dealing with so much.

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Speaker 1: You're dealing with children you have to take care of,

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Speaker 1: dealing with racism, dealing with having parents who were enslaved

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Speaker 1: at one point and that history and the trauma that

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Speaker 1: comes with that alone, and then being born into a

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Speaker 1: world where you have to deal with your own difficulties,

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Speaker 1: and moving across the United States, trying to get into

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Speaker 1: the entertainment fieldtainment being its own fraught thing. So the

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Speaker 1: history of entertainment for black people, you know, just her

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Speaker 1: being on set with people who were white but we're

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Speaker 1: in black face, who were playing these larger roles than

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Speaker 1: she was, her being the person who was on the

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Speaker 1: receiving end of all the ire around the protest for

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Speaker 1: something that rightfully deserved protests like the birth of a nation.

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Speaker 1: So interesting how it was this kind of like, well, free, well,

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Speaker 1: this is very related to things that we go through today,

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Speaker 1: but free speech has of course always been an issue.

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Speaker 1: But it being about free speech, but the people who

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Speaker 1: are protesting it, you know, rightfully. So it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of this meta thing where there was an argument against well,

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Speaker 1: I have free speech, so I get to make this film.

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Speaker 1: Yet when it's protested, all of that falls back on Soultawan,

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Speaker 1: one person who just so happened to be in the

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Speaker 1: line of crossfire. Is a whole thing unto itself. But

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Speaker 1: in the midst of her going through all of these things,

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Speaker 1: she still had this kind of future site to call

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Speaker 1: herself soul to Wan, something that ended up likely getting

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Speaker 1: her a lot more roles or a different kind of role,

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Speaker 1: or being able to have a different a wide range

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Speaker 1: of roles. And I think that's very I think it

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Speaker 1: can be inspirational, or even if it's not inspirational, because

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Speaker 1: I can feel a little bit dramatic, like it's something

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Speaker 1: that is worthy of thinking about because she was able

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Speaker 1: to get so many different roles and she was able

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Speaker 1: to use this aura that she created around herself and

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Speaker 1: this persona that she created for herself in her work

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Speaker 1: through something like naming, and I think that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is definitely something something worth thinking about. And I

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Speaker 1: know we've talked about this before. I still want to

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Speaker 1: come back and do this eaves where we were talking about,

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Speaker 1: like you know, in the time of social media and

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Speaker 1: having your privacy and all those things of like, is

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Speaker 1: that kind of myth making as easy to do today

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Speaker 1: there's all this stuff, But I do think that because

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Speaker 1: there is so much misinformation and disinformation, it's still possible. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's interesting to kind of think about. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think it is. I think, oh, that's it. I think

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Speaker 1: that's it into this conversation. But yeah, we should revisit that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you have to keep lists that we need to come

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Speaker 1: back to. I know, I know, it's just interesting to

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Speaker 1: think about like future future eaves is like trying to research,

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Speaker 1: like us for instances that kind of stuff together. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but yes, we would love to have you

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Speaker 1: back to talk about that in the future and yeah,

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Speaker 1: thanks again as always East for bringing this story to us.

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Speaker 1: We're welcome. Yes, and where can the good listeners find you?

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Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram at not Apologizing. You

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00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: can also find me on Twitter at Eve's jeffco or

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00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: you can just go to Eves Jeffcote dot com. That

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00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: is y V E S J E F F c

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Speaker 1: oat dot com and you can get to all of

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Speaker 1: the other things from there. You can also find me

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Speaker 1: on many, many other episodes of Stuff Mom Never Told You,

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Speaker 1: doing this female first series on women history who were pioneers,

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00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: were trailblazing and did some things first with a lot

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Speaker 1: of context around them. Always appreciated and very much needed. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and I do think we're coming up on a big milestone.

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Speaker 1: I keep saying that, but I'm pretty sure so do

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Speaker 1: Champagne and Cheese Kick. I mean, we should well. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, Thanks, It's always Eves listeners. If you would

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Speaker 1: like to find us, you can or email Stuff Media

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Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us

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00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts, or on Instagram and

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00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: TikTok at stuff I've Never Told You, or on YouTube

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Speaker 1: if that's where you would rather listen. Thanks as always

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00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: to our superproducer Christina and our executive producer Maya and

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Speaker 1: our contributor extraordinaire at Joey. Thank you and thanks to

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Speaker 1: you for listening stuff I never told you protection I

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00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: Heeart Radio from more podcast in my Heart Radio, you

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Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows