WEBVTT - Ep. 25: Thinking About Big History in One Western Place

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<v Speaker 1>The famous geographic dictum space plus culture equals place is

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<v Speaker 1>nowhere more vivid than on the high plains of the West,

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<v Speaker 1>where a succession of human cultures have repeatedly inhabited a

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<v Speaker 1>setting already changed by previous inhabitants. I'm dan Flor's and

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<v Speaker 1>this is the American West, thinking about big history in

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<v Speaker 1>one Western place. On a blessery gray day in March

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years ago, Stephen Ranella and I spent an afternoon

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<v Speaker 1>giving ourselves a tour of a piece of the West

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<v Speaker 1>that ought to be as famous as Jamestown or Plymouth Rock.

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<v Speaker 1>Stephen was then working on his book on Buffalo, and

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<v Speaker 1>on a visit to Santa Fe, where I'd recently built

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<v Speaker 1>a house, he proposed that we'd take off across the

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<v Speaker 1>Great Plains to see what then stood as a kind

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<v Speaker 1>of ground zero in the American story. The place we

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<v Speaker 1>were heading entirely lacked the school book associations of a

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<v Speaker 1>colonial Virginia or Massachusetts Bay, or even of Santa Fe,

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<v Speaker 1>then closing in on its four hundredth year as the

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<v Speaker 1>oldest city founded by Europeans in the American West. But

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<v Speaker 1>the place we were driving towards did have one great

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<v Speaker 1>advantage not enjoyed by those more famous sites. The Blackwater

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<v Speaker 1>draw UNESCO World Heritage Site outside Clovis, New Mexico, pushes

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<v Speaker 1>definite human inhabitation of North America back more than thirteen

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<v Speaker 1>thousand years in the past in twenty twenty six. There

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<v Speaker 1>are pretty definitive arguments for a human presence in America

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<v Speaker 1>even older. Of course, the best evidence so far is

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<v Speaker 1>the blockbuster find in twenty nineteen of what turned out

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<v Speaker 1>to be sixty one beautifully preserved footprints, mostly left by

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<v Speaker 1>children or adolescents, in the soft mud of an ancient lake,

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of one hundred miles southwest of the Blackwater

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<v Speaker 1>Clovis site in today's White Sands National Monument. Grass remains

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<v Speaker 1>crushed by those feet have dated to twenty three thousand

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, a full ten millennia before Clovis. But so far,

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<v Speaker 1>no ancient culture whose remains archaeologists have on Earth seems

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<v Speaker 1>to have draped itself over this continent with the geographic

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<v Speaker 1>sweep of the Clovis Paleolithic hunters, whose excavated campsites and

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<v Speaker 1>tools cover every part of the present United States. For

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<v Speaker 1>most of America, and this is certainly true of most

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<v Speaker 1>of the American West, places like White Sands excepted. Clovis

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<v Speaker 1>is the beginning of the human presence here, our human

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<v Speaker 1>ground zero. Before Clovis, most pieces of the West truly

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<v Speaker 1>were wilderness landscapes that lacked a human presence. After Clovis,

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<v Speaker 1>the pattern in most places is one occupation after another

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<v Speaker 1>right down through today. In search of Clovis America, Stephen

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<v Speaker 1>and I were out in a country I'd once made home.

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<v Speaker 1>We call it the High Plains today, although who knows

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<v Speaker 1>what names most of its ancient inhabitants might have used

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<v Speaker 1>for these flat prairies. The names we do know seem

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<v Speaker 1>to reference the region's endless horizontal flatness, a sensory impression

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<v Speaker 1>that perhaps was universal for us upright primates. Steven and

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<v Speaker 1>I were headed for a very old set piece here

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<v Speaker 1>less than a century ago when archaeologists discovered the spot.

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<v Speaker 1>Clovis culture was unknown and Blackwater draw was about to

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<v Speaker 1>be mined for gravel to pill roads through a handful

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<v Speaker 1>of nearby American farming towns. When archaeologist E. B. Howard

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<v Speaker 1>made discoveries here that rocked the world. Scientists named the culture,

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<v Speaker 1>whose large dramatic points they were finding after the closest

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<v Speaker 1>of those towns, Clovis, New Mexico. With the addition of

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<v Speaker 1>a grand new tool, radiocarbon dating, over the next half century,

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<v Speaker 1>science would find evidence all over the West and all

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<v Speaker 1>over America of a Clovisia the beautiful that had lasted

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<v Speaker 1>four hundred years, significantly longer than the two hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty years of the present United States. Stephen and I

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<v Speaker 1>had made one cardinal mistake in our over to the

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<v Speaker 1>Texas border from Santa Fe. We'd forgotten to check if

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<v Speaker 1>the Blackwater draw Grounds and its visitor center were actually open.

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<v Speaker 1>For some reason now lost to time. It turned out

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<v Speaker 1>the site was in fact closed for the day, which

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<v Speaker 1>I'll confessed didn't really deter us. Interested in information and

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<v Speaker 1>education rather than mischief, we simply climbed over the gate

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<v Speaker 1>and proceeded to give ourselves a self guided tour around

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<v Speaker 1>one of our country's most famous ancient human sites. That

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<v Speaker 1>tour made it clear that the Clovis people had arrived

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<v Speaker 1>in America at a propitious time. Among the large cosmic

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<v Speaker 1>forces that have shaped North America's big history, one of

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<v Speaker 1>them had allowed these people their access to the continent

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<v Speaker 1>hemmed up for thousands of years on the Baringian land

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<v Speaker 1>mass that formed between Siberia and Alaska, when much of

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<v Speaker 1>the northern Ocean waters were ice. The ancestors of these

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<v Speaker 1>people had been blocked from entering America i Tinrant. Earlier

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<v Speaker 1>groups like those who found White Sands had probably followed

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<v Speaker 1>the coastlines from Asia to America in some kind of watercraft,

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<v Speaker 1>but sixteen thousand or so years ago, the Wisconsin Maximum

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<v Speaker 1>had ebbed enough to open a passage out of Beringia

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<v Speaker 1>and into North America. As best we can tell, by

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<v Speaker 1>thirteen thousand years ago, the early Americans we now call

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<v Speaker 1>Clovis were all the way down to Blackwater in today's

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<v Speaker 1>New Mexico. The Clovis people were lucky enough to be

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<v Speaker 1>here when giants still roamed the continent. Indeed, it was

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<v Speaker 1>the Pleistocene megafauna of the Americas that drew humans out

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<v Speaker 1>of Siberia in the first place. Across most of the

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<v Speaker 1>American West thirteen thousand years ago, it was possible for

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<v Speaker 1>Clovis people to do what so many humans loved to do,

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<v Speaker 1>specialize economically, and what they appeared to have wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>specialize in was hunting big animals, especially elephants, the various

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<v Speaker 1>species of mammoths that had evolved in America when they could.

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<v Speaker 1>It was the discovery of large Clovis spear points embedded

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<v Speaker 1>in the remains of mammoths, giant groundsloss, camels, and horses

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<v Speaker 1>that rocked the world in the nineteen thirties. It confirmed

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<v Speaker 1>something the famed fulsome Side found fewer than ten years earlier,

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<v Speaker 1>had indicated that what many thought was a brand new

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<v Speaker 1>American story actually was a very very ancient one, with

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<v Speaker 1>people hunting giant creatures so far back in time, these

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<v Speaker 1>animals were no longer even found on earth. Walking along

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<v Speaker 1>Blackwater Draws set into these vast plains that March afternoon,

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<v Speaker 1>the obvious observation to make was that the elephant hunt

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<v Speaker 1>did not last. Twenty eight of those mammoths died at

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<v Speaker 1>human hands in this spot. Except for an isolated pot

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<v Speaker 1>population on a tiny island in the Burying Sea, all

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<v Speaker 1>the species of American mammoths went extinct during Clovis times. Then,

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<v Speaker 1>in the early nineteen seventies, archaeologists uncovered more than eight

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<v Speaker 1>thousand artifacts at Blackwater draw from the Fulsome culture. The

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<v Speaker 1>people who followed the Clovis people. In time, as indicated

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<v Speaker 1>by the Fulsome site and many others like it across

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<v Speaker 1>the West, the extinction of the elephants had led the

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<v Speaker 1>next inhabitants of the interior West, especially on the high plains,

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<v Speaker 1>to specialize and yet another of the great Pleascetocene species,

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<v Speaker 1>a massive early bison, now called bison antiquis. But like

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<v Speaker 1>the mammos in time, Bison antiquis was also faded to

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<v Speaker 1>become extinct. While Fulsome culture and its spent offs perfected

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<v Speaker 1>bison drives, corrals and at adle technology to enable them

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<v Speaker 1>to survive some two thousand years around roughly eleven thousand

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, this LifeWay too collapsed. Looking around us at

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<v Speaker 1>these windy, usually brightly lit savannahs now bereft of both

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<v Speaker 1>elephants and giant bison, but populated in the present by

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<v Speaker 1>oil wells and monocrop agriculture, led Steven and me to

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<v Speaker 1>commence some reconstruction of the big patterns in the deep

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<v Speaker 1>time history of this place, track any part of the

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<v Speaker 1>world across the large expanses of time since humans arrived,

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<v Speaker 1>and a story begins to unfold that demonstrates a set

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<v Speaker 1>of principles about history. First, because the grand forces mean

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<v Speaker 1>that the Earth is an evolving and endlessly changing world.

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<v Speaker 1>No place remains the same across big history. The science

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<v Speaker 1>of ecology once waxed eloquent about climax the biophysical reality

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<v Speaker 1>of natural environments if left undisturbed supposedly, but every environment

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<v Speaker 1>is endlessly undergoing disturbance or recovery from it, so that

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<v Speaker 1>what appears to be climaxes are merely snapshots in time

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<v Speaker 1>changing as we look, is in fact the normal state

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<v Speaker 1>of the world. Second, we human beings, like every other species,

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<v Speaker 1>alter the places where we live. The famous geographer Ye

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<v Speaker 1>Thutwan once composed a simple and elegant aphorism I long

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<v Speaker 1>ago committed a memory. Space plus culture equals place. Space

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<v Speaker 1>plus culture equals place. What do you meant was take

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<v Speaker 1>natural settings, add in human economies and technologies and ideas

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<v Speaker 1>about living, and what you get are places. Yet the

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<v Speaker 1>truth about life in a given place is that the

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<v Speaker 1>past of a place never remains in the past. Only

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<v Speaker 1>the first human inhabitants to occupy a piece of ground

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<v Speaker 1>get to interact with an unaltered space. This is the

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<v Speaker 1>biological principle that drove the human migrations out of Africa

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<v Speaker 1>and around the world. The search for places other humans

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<v Speaker 1>haven't yet altered remains a part of our psychological makeup.

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<v Speaker 1>It's why we love to find ourselves on a trail

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<v Speaker 1>where no one is in front of us, or on

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<v Speaker 1>an overlook with no houses or other humans in sight.

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<v Speaker 1>It's why wilderness is so important to us. As for

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<v Speaker 1>inhabiting places, since we succeed one another in place after place,

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<v Speaker 1>we human inhabitants end up interacting not with pristine environments,

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<v Speaker 1>but with settings that have already been changed by the

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<v Speaker 1>people who have occupied the ground before us. Does the

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<v Speaker 1>folsome people did in the wake of four hundred years

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<v Speaker 1>of Clovis inhabitation of the high planes, all of us

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<v Speaker 1>who come later are engaging with someone else's previously created place.

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<v Speaker 1>Henry David Threaux's famous passage about wishing to know an

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<v Speaker 1>entire heaven and an entire Earth included a line where

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<v Speaker 1>he hoped some demi god, as he put it, hadn't

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<v Speaker 1>preceded him and plucked from the heavens the best of

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<v Speaker 1>the stars. Unfortunately for the natural world, that's often the

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<v Speaker 1>narrative of human history. Someone else has already been there.

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<v Speaker 1>The real question usually has to do with which of

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<v Speaker 1>the best stars got erased and which few survived. What

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<v Speaker 1>I want to do with this episode is to lay

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<v Speaker 1>out what Stephen and I dropped into that day on

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<v Speaker 1>the High Plains, the general patterns of thirteen thousand years

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<v Speaker 1>of human conversion of space to place and then place

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<v Speaker 1>into another place. And in honor of that day at

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<v Speaker 1>Blackwater Draw, I think the best way to do this

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<v Speaker 1>is to concentrate on that country. The country we were

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<v Speaker 1>visiting then. The High Plains is one example of what

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<v Speaker 1>seems to have happened in every place we live in

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<v Speaker 1>the West. So I mean to provide the outlines of

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<v Speaker 1>the big history. The French who study this in Europe

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<v Speaker 1>call it La Longueiray in a region now divided by

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<v Speaker 1>state lines, and that today we tend to think of

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<v Speaker 1>as New Mexico or Texas, or Oklahoma or Colorado or Kansas.

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<v Speaker 1>Yet like most regions, the High Plains has long been

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<v Speaker 1>something real and discernible in and of itself. Whether we

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<v Speaker 1>call it Kansas or Colorado, the High Plains have been

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<v Speaker 1>shaped fairly uniformly by the grand forces of the planet

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<v Speaker 1>and by an American story that has given it a

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<v Speaker 1>regional art through time. Here's one insight for thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>things like this. There's a theory about human settlement in place,

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<v Speaker 1>assembled as a kind of convergence of history, geography, and ecology,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's sometimes called the theory of possibilism. An eccentric

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<v Speaker 1>Kansas professor of ecological history named James Malin back in

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<v Speaker 1>the nineteen thirties brainstormed that bioregional environments like the High

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<v Speaker 1>Planes do not actually determine how people live in them. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>they offer up a range of possibilities from which we

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<v Speaker 1>choose based on our cultural preparation, what we recognize as

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<v Speaker 1>potential resources, and our technological abilities. A region like the

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<v Speaker 1>High Planes doesn't offer unlimited possibilities, though whaling or an

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<v Speaker 1>economy based on processing timber doesn't fall within the range

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<v Speaker 1>of lifeways here yet on this as if sunlit grassland,

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<v Speaker 1>whose offerings might seem quite limited, There's been a wide

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<v Speaker 1>range of possibilities for human life from Clovis times to

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<v Speaker 1>the present. As is the case with every region of Earth,

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<v Speaker 1>the geology, topography, climate, and ecology of the West High

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<v Speaker 1>Plains have been the fundamental keys to human life here. Generally,

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<v Speaker 1>this region's surface geology is a sedimentary outwash from the

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<v Speaker 1>Rocky Mountains that buried ancient carboniferous life forms from the Permian, Triassic,

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<v Speaker 1>and in a few spots the Jurassic periods. The overlying

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<v Speaker 1>erosional wash from the mountains also buried very old mountain

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<v Speaker 1>stream runoff in the form of a fossil underground lake

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<v Speaker 1>we now call the Oblalla aquifer As an erosional apron

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<v Speaker 1>of the Rockies. The plain's surface gradually slopes downward in

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<v Speaker 1>elevation from west to east, so despite its appearance to

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<v Speaker 1>the eye, the topography is not actually flat. Long before

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<v Speaker 1>Clovis hunters arrived, rivers like the Arkansas, the Cimarron, Canadian,

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<v Speaker 1>and Pecos had carved arroyo and canyonated channels across this

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<v Speaker 1>high plane surface. On its easternmost edge, that outwashed surface

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<v Speaker 1>presents as a sharp plateau, the cap Rock Escarpment. For

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<v Speaker 1>the last million years, another set of rivers borne on

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<v Speaker 1>the plateau itself, the Red Brazos and Colorado River of Texas,

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<v Speaker 1>have spilled off the escarpment through deep, brightly colored canyons

0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:52.240
<v Speaker 1>that expose the underlying Permian and Triassic rocks. Pelloduro Canyon,

0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.560
<v Speaker 1>which I've mentioned a few times here lately in Texas's

0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.680
<v Speaker 1>Panhandled is the most well known, but dozens of smaller

0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.080
<v Speaker 1>million year old canyons run water off this giant plateau.

0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:09.320
<v Speaker 1>While geology and topography have remained fairly constant since humans

0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.880
<v Speaker 1>came to live here, climate and biology have changed greatly,

0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.359
<v Speaker 1>and often Because the region is far inland from the

0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.720
<v Speaker 1>Gulf of Mexico and the Southern Rockies intercept much of

0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 1>the moisture coming from the Pacific, The High Plains has

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:27.560
<v Speaker 1>a semi arid climate since Clovis times. It's been drier

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.840
<v Speaker 1>than the country on either side of it, typically bathed

0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.399
<v Speaker 1>in three hundred and twenty annual days of sunshine and

0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:39.840
<v Speaker 1>vigorously wind swept, but its climate has always been truly

0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:45.080
<v Speaker 1>variable over time, sometimes producing cool, lush conditions, but there

0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:49.760
<v Speaker 1>are always drought episodes and raging dust storms. One major

0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.720
<v Speaker 1>dry period since humans have been in America, the so

0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:56.920
<v Speaker 1>called Alta thermal prevailed for thousands of years on the

0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.879
<v Speaker 1>High Plains. This kind of topograph and this kind of

0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:04.119
<v Speaker 1>climate have made the High Planes a short grass and

0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.680
<v Speaker 1>mid height grassland for most of human history, and that's

0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.480
<v Speaker 1>important to this story. The energy that drives most terrestrial

0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.679
<v Speaker 1>systems comes directly from the sun, and sunny, semi arid

0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:21.040
<v Speaker 1>grasslands are a very direct converter of solar energy into

0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:25.159
<v Speaker 1>forms that other life can use. In one simple step

0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:30.720
<v Speaker 1>of photosynthesis, thermodynamic energy streaming from the sun is directly

0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:35.600
<v Speaker 1>available to animals that eat grass, then to other animals

0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.480
<v Speaker 1>that eat the grass eaters. So when early humans came

0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.359
<v Speaker 1>to the high planes, they found biological life centered on

0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.920
<v Speaker 1>the conversion of this massive solar energy charge had produced

0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:52.480
<v Speaker 1>a remarkable and diverse world of different life forms. Those

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.920
<v Speaker 1>life forms, elephants and bison, and their wide array of predators,

0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:02.560
<v Speaker 1>became the first possible basis of human high planes and habitation.

0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.840
<v Speaker 1>One other element influenced the range of possibilities on the

0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:15.639
<v Speaker 1>high planes geographical connections. As social animals, we humans seek

0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.280
<v Speaker 1>out contacts with other human groups. If those groups live

0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:23.160
<v Speaker 1>in environments different from ours. We trade what we produce

0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:28.159
<v Speaker 1>for things we lack and they have. Today's global market

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.920
<v Speaker 1>economy is the modern result, but more limited forms of

0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:36.040
<v Speaker 1>the idea have always been around. During every part of

0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:40.240
<v Speaker 1>high plane's history, people joined in economic systems that tied

0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:44.760
<v Speaker 1>them by trade to people living somewhere else. Quite often,

0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.639
<v Speaker 1>when people are using local nature to provide economic resources

0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:53.000
<v Speaker 1>for people living in other places, those trade networks act

0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:57.159
<v Speaker 1>to simplify the natural world. There are plenty of examples

0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:01.760
<v Speaker 1>to follow. Here is the basic template of history in

0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.679
<v Speaker 1>most of the West, in America and the world on

0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.280
<v Speaker 1>the high Plains from the time of the Clovis elephant hunters.

0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:14.720
<v Speaker 1>The Fulsome hunters inherited a Clovis place that Clovis culture

0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.560
<v Speaker 1>had changed from its original condition. The place fashioned by

0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:23.919
<v Speaker 1>the Clovis people no longer offered the possibility of a

0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:27.560
<v Speaker 1>life based on hunting elephants. In the couple of thousands

0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.840
<v Speaker 1>of years that followed, the Fulsome people and their several

0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:35.359
<v Speaker 1>offshoots dominated the high planes and concentrated their economies on

0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:41.359
<v Speaker 1>the remaining animals, particularly herds of giant pleisosne bison. But

0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.960
<v Speaker 1>by nine thousand years ago, the huge Pleistocene bison were

0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:51.120
<v Speaker 1>also gone, so were ground sloths, camels, horses, dire wolves,

0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:56.159
<v Speaker 1>American cheetahs. Entire ecologies that humans had found on the

0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:01.600
<v Speaker 1>high plains had vanished. So the next inhabitants inherited a

0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:08.439
<v Speaker 1>place pretty drastically altered by two major predecessors. These new people,

0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:12.720
<v Speaker 1>a collection of slightly different regional cultural groups who are

0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.720
<v Speaker 1>collectively known as the Archaics, would live full, in rich

0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.800
<v Speaker 1>lives across the high plains for the next eight thousand years.

0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.680
<v Speaker 1>To offer a sense of scale that's almost forty times

0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:30.920
<v Speaker 1>longer than the United States has existed, Archaic peoples were

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:35.639
<v Speaker 1>hunter gatherers who devoted far more attention to plant gathering

0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:40.320
<v Speaker 1>than had their ancestors. But on the windswept, sun drenched

0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.480
<v Speaker 1>high planes grasslands, it was still a grazing animal that

0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:51.040
<v Speaker 1>converted sunlight most efficiently into energy. Mammoths, camels, and horses

0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:55.840
<v Speaker 1>had left no successor species, but bison did. With most

0:21:55.880 --> 0:22:00.919
<v Speaker 1>of its grazing competition eliminated. The modern bison floated in

0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:06.440
<v Speaker 1>an almost weed like efflorescence, better adapted to the grasslands

0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.960
<v Speaker 1>than even the Archaic people who hunted them. Bison made

0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:15.160
<v Speaker 1>possible an archaic high planes place that would survive across

0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.720
<v Speaker 1>those eighty centuries. Think of that as we celebrate two

0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:25.000
<v Speaker 1>and a half centuries of the United States. The archaic

0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:29.240
<v Speaker 1>high planes place did confront a major climate emergency that

0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:33.920
<v Speaker 1>demanded an extreme response. About sixty five hundred years ago,

0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:37.720
<v Speaker 1>climate in the American West cycled into an extremely warm,

0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.720
<v Speaker 1>dry phase that lasted nearly two thousand years. This is

0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:46.479
<v Speaker 1>the long hot drought climate historians called the Alta thermal.

0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:50.360
<v Speaker 1>It may be a predictor for our response to global

0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:54.200
<v Speaker 1>climate change in the West. In our time, the Alta

0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:56.639
<v Speaker 1>thermal came close to turning the High Planes into a

0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:00.960
<v Speaker 1>true desert and a vacant one. Not only did bison

0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:04.720
<v Speaker 1>leave the region for wetter conditions to the east and north,

0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:09.200
<v Speaker 1>evidence is strong that most of the Archaic peoples did

0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.800
<v Speaker 1>the same. While a few villages of Archaics held on

0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:17.160
<v Speaker 1>at permanent wetlands like Blackwater Draw and at Lubbock Lake,

0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:21.440
<v Speaker 1>where springs bubbled the Oglalla aquafor to the surface, pretty

0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:26.800
<v Speaker 1>much everybody else left. Starting about two thousand years ago,

0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:30.440
<v Speaker 1>significant change, occurring on both sides of the High Plains

0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:35.320
<v Speaker 1>began to create a new set of human possibilities. Crop

0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:39.760
<v Speaker 1>growing as a brand new LifeWay, diffused northward from its

0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.439
<v Speaker 1>invention in Mexico to groups like the Mugga Yawn and

0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:47.040
<v Speaker 1>the Anasazi of the desert southwest, and to the mound

0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:53.040
<v Speaker 1>building Mississippian cultures of the Mississippi Valley. When farming societies

0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.760
<v Speaker 1>developed on either side of the High Plains. The opportunity

0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:00.480
<v Speaker 1>to create new kinds of local places was under way

0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:04.600
<v Speaker 1>in president New Mexico, just west of the High Plains,

0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:10.520
<v Speaker 1>corn growing, pottery making, pueblo building societies of great sophistication

0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:15.479
<v Speaker 1>and far reaching trade networks emerged to cast spheres of

0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:20.040
<v Speaker 1>influence onto the plains. Only a few hundred years later,

0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:25.520
<v Speaker 1>agricultural village dwelling Mississippian peoples Caddo and speakers in what

0:24:25.680 --> 0:24:31.080
<v Speaker 1>is now East Texas, Arkansas, and Louisiana also established vibrant

0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:34.199
<v Speaker 1>societies that began to push up the rivers towards the

0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:38.480
<v Speaker 1>High Plains, looking for trading partners. That trade took on

0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:43.400
<v Speaker 1>a tantalizing form. What High Plains people had in profusion

0:24:43.680 --> 0:24:47.200
<v Speaker 1>were the products of the bison hunt. They had maroon

0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:51.639
<v Speaker 1>and blue striped flints from a famous quarry called Alibates,

0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:57.639
<v Speaker 1>beautifully tanned robes, and especially dried protein in abundance. What

0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:01.679
<v Speaker 1>they had always had in ins dificient supply of was

0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:06.760
<v Speaker 1>a source of carbohydrates. With agricultural people not far away,

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:11.800
<v Speaker 1>both hunters and farmers could overcome their dietary bottlenecks. A

0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:16.840
<v Speaker 1>form of mutualism for all groups involved luxury and status.

0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:21.560
<v Speaker 1>Goods like turquoise from the Pueblo mines lubricated that exchange.

0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:25.359
<v Speaker 1>While these trade items would change over time, immersion into

0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:30.080
<v Speaker 1>far flung regional trade networks was a new possibility that

0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:36.679
<v Speaker 1>didn't depend on one's local resources to create place with

0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:41.000
<v Speaker 1>a more imaginative take on the possibilities now high planes,

0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:46.760
<v Speaker 1>people pursued life ways of increasing complexity between twelve hundred

0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:50.480
<v Speaker 1>and fifteen hundred. In fact, a famous experiment on the

0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:54.320
<v Speaker 1>high planes involved a group called the Antelope Creek people,

0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:59.080
<v Speaker 1>who tried agricultural towns far out in the heart of

0:25:59.119 --> 0:26:04.080
<v Speaker 1>the high planes along the Canadian and Republican rivers. Antelope

0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Creek crops, points, pottery, and tools came from both the

0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Eastern and the Western farming traditions. Rather than the hide

0:26:14.520 --> 0:26:18.640
<v Speaker 1>tepees of the buffalo hunters, these people built rock slab

0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:24.480
<v Speaker 1>houses of multiple rooms, including one built Acoma style on

0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:29.560
<v Speaker 1>the top of a butte now called landergen Mesa. The

0:26:29.680 --> 0:26:33.040
<v Speaker 1>architecture seemed to be based on the Pueblo model from

0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:37.560
<v Speaker 1>two hundred and fifty miles farther west. Ideas from multiple

0:26:37.640 --> 0:26:40.680
<v Speaker 1>cultures had made the act of creating place on the

0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:47.080
<v Speaker 1>high plains more imaginative than it had ever been. Crop growing, though,

0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:51.680
<v Speaker 1>is a strategy to extract solar energy directly, but plants

0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:56.040
<v Speaker 1>need moisture too, and the Antelope Creek people ultimately couldn't

0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:59.560
<v Speaker 1>sustain farming on the high plains with the moisture that

0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:03.679
<v Speaker 1>fell from the sky. Drought finally caused them to abandon

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:08.280
<v Speaker 1>their experiment. Other groups Catto and speakers like the Wichitas

0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:11.720
<v Speaker 1>and Pawnees and sue and speakers like the O Sages

0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:15.640
<v Speaker 1>and Mandans, would later push farming villages part way up

0:27:15.720 --> 0:27:19.320
<v Speaker 1>the plains rivers, but it required a new technology in

0:27:19.359 --> 0:27:23.720
<v Speaker 1>the twentieth century before anyone else would try to create

0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:27.560
<v Speaker 1>farming places as far out on the high plains as

0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:33.720
<v Speaker 1>the Antelope Creek people had six hundred years earlier. When

0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Old worlders arrived on the scene and founded places like

0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Santa Fe, Nacotish, New Orleans, and Saint Louis, radically new

0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:49.240
<v Speaker 1>possibilities opened up on the high plains. Two developments, domesticated

0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:53.280
<v Speaker 1>animals from Europe and the bottomless trade lusts of a

0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:59.720
<v Speaker 1>truly global market, created dramatic new possibilities out on the grasslands.

0:28:00.920 --> 0:28:03.960
<v Speaker 1>One of the animals was an old American native. The

0:28:04.080 --> 0:28:09.480
<v Speaker 1>horse returned to America, it underwent a stunning ecological release.

0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:13.920
<v Speaker 1>It took less than a century for new dominant horse riders,

0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:19.560
<v Speaker 1>the Comanches, the Cheyennes, the Kiowas to merge this animal

0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:24.119
<v Speaker 1>with the bison of antiquity to create a new LifeWay

0:28:24.440 --> 0:28:27.639
<v Speaker 1>and a new place in the global market. Trade economy

0:28:27.880 --> 0:28:32.480
<v Speaker 1>for the high planes horse and bison more than doubled

0:28:32.720 --> 0:28:36.880
<v Speaker 1>the human capture of solar energy streaming into the grasslands.

0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:41.680
<v Speaker 1>These horse riders built on old trade networks to exchange

0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:45.920
<v Speaker 1>bison products, both for crops from farmers and now for

0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:51.920
<v Speaker 1>European industrial goods. But the Comanches at least still saw

0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:56.840
<v Speaker 1>the solar connection. They made the sun their primary object

0:28:56.960 --> 0:29:01.040
<v Speaker 1>of religious veneration, and visitors to their vi villa said

0:29:01.040 --> 0:29:04.840
<v Speaker 1>that in the mornings, the Comanches would hang their shields

0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:08.280
<v Speaker 1>in full view of the sun and rotate them throughout

0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:13.600
<v Speaker 1>the day like a field of leather sunflowers, absorbing sun power.

0:29:15.360 --> 0:29:18.920
<v Speaker 1>Of course, high plane settlement and the creation of place

0:29:19.240 --> 0:29:22.880
<v Speaker 1>didn't end here. The people who now came to the

0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:27.720
<v Speaker 1>region had old World cultures that benefited from ideas and

0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:33.000
<v Speaker 1>technology from across the globe, bison and even grass would

0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:38.280
<v Speaker 1>not survive them. Once their global market economy entirely obliterated

0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:42.120
<v Speaker 1>bison for a period of well over a decade, new

0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:47.520
<v Speaker 1>Mexicans from west to the Plains directed new grazing animals,

0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:52.240
<v Speaker 1>in their case enormous flocks of sheep, onto the now

0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:58.080
<v Speaker 1>strangely silent high planes grasslands. This Old World animal introduction

0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:02.920
<v Speaker 1>began the alteration of high plains ecology by weakening the

0:30:02.960 --> 0:30:09.600
<v Speaker 1>grass cover and introducing invasive weed species like tumbleweeds. Then

0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:13.920
<v Speaker 1>Texans and other Americans from Old World backgrounds poured in

0:30:14.000 --> 0:30:17.960
<v Speaker 1>from the east and populated the high plains with cattle

0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:22.840
<v Speaker 1>and ranches. Their animus at many of the remaining wild

0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:29.400
<v Speaker 1>species eliminated wolves that high plains ancient keystone predator. They

0:30:29.440 --> 0:30:33.640
<v Speaker 1>poisoned paride dogs and blackfooted ferrets out of existence. They

0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:37.560
<v Speaker 1>even waged a war of annihilation on coyotes and eagles.

0:30:39.040 --> 0:30:43.520
<v Speaker 1>By the early twentieth century, with deep drilling available to

0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:49.000
<v Speaker 1>them to tap underground resources, these new arrivals discovered the

0:30:49.080 --> 0:30:54.320
<v Speaker 1>fossilized solar energy of the High Plains, carbon wealth in

0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:59.160
<v Speaker 1>the Permian and other formations buried underfoot. This was a

0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:04.560
<v Speaker 1>possibility for creating place that was entirely invisible and unimagined

0:31:04.880 --> 0:31:09.280
<v Speaker 1>to all previous inhabitants. Now it organized the ancient rim

0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:12.840
<v Speaker 1>of the elephant and the thousands of years of bison

0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:17.680
<v Speaker 1>into a kind of landman place of oily trash line

0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:24.440
<v Speaker 1>roads and mechanical nodding oil field pumpjacks. The high plains,

0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:29.080
<v Speaker 1>especially the Texas and New Mexico parks, is still such

0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:34.520
<v Speaker 1>a place, but there's competition now. Optimistic Americans became the

0:31:34.600 --> 0:31:37.640
<v Speaker 1>first to try to farm the high planes, since the

0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Antelope Creek people had failed. They began by committing a

0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:48.040
<v Speaker 1>kind of ecological sacrilege. They plowed under the ancient grasslands

0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:52.680
<v Speaker 1>that had been so effective at converting sunlight to useful energy.

0:31:54.000 --> 0:31:57.520
<v Speaker 1>That looked like a tragic mistake initially when a de

0:31:57.720 --> 0:32:02.920
<v Speaker 1>grassed high plane's hit by drought collapse into the dust bowl,

0:32:03.360 --> 0:32:10.160
<v Speaker 1>the most epic disaster and human out migration in Western history. Nonetheless,

0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:15.959
<v Speaker 1>the early nineteen forties produced a new technological miracle, v

0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:20.720
<v Speaker 1>eight automobile engines strong enough to pump water up out

0:32:20.720 --> 0:32:24.720
<v Speaker 1>of the vast Oglalla aquifer for making the high planes

0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:30.520
<v Speaker 1>into a cotton empire. Today, oil field pump jacks and

0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:35.360
<v Speaker 1>cotton to the horizons. Get some visual relief with the glinting,

0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:41.080
<v Speaker 1>spinning propellers of don Quixote like wind farms. But you

0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:45.160
<v Speaker 1>suspect that sucking up fossil carbon and drawing on a

0:32:45.240 --> 0:32:50.080
<v Speaker 1>shrinking underground lake to grow cotton are experiments in place

0:32:50.160 --> 0:32:54.960
<v Speaker 1>building that will have barely half the lifespan of Clovis

0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:59.280
<v Speaker 1>culture itself. The briefest High Planes human episodes so far

0:33:00.360 --> 0:33:04.600
<v Speaker 1>maybe half the lifespan. So if the present version of

0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:08.280
<v Speaker 1>place on the high Plains is your thing, all I

0:33:08.320 --> 0:33:13.360
<v Speaker 1>can say is best celebrated while you can working through all.

0:33:13.400 --> 0:33:16.200
<v Speaker 1>This was pretty much how the conversation went as Steven

0:33:16.240 --> 0:33:18.960
<v Speaker 1>and I drove back to Santa Fe from our visit

0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:23.080
<v Speaker 1>to Blackwater Draw. Sure everywhere in America has experienced this

0:33:23.240 --> 0:33:28.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of sequence of human places superimposed on natural landscapes

0:33:28.760 --> 0:33:33.200
<v Speaker 1>and previous human places. But somehow, amid the pump jacks

0:33:33.280 --> 0:33:37.440
<v Speaker 1>and the flared natural gas, the center pivot irrigation, and

0:33:37.480 --> 0:33:42.560
<v Speaker 1>the wind farms, the obliteration of original nature from elephants

0:33:42.960 --> 0:33:46.560
<v Speaker 1>to what's here now seems like a fairy tale that's

0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:52.040
<v Speaker 1>almost not believable. In most American regions, The previous inhabitants

0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:56.600
<v Speaker 1>altered the world, often repeatedly, but usually they handed down

0:33:56.840 --> 0:34:01.440
<v Speaker 1>some semblance of original nature. On the high Plains today,

0:34:01.480 --> 0:34:04.720
<v Speaker 1>you have to look hard to find tiny pieces of

0:34:04.800 --> 0:34:09.440
<v Speaker 1>ground where any part of that original high plains grasslands

0:34:09.480 --> 0:34:13.640
<v Speaker 1>to the horizons still exists. The best preserved pieces on

0:34:13.680 --> 0:34:16.880
<v Speaker 1>the high Plains today are its canyon lands and breaks

0:34:17.239 --> 0:34:22.240
<v Speaker 1>country that was just too rugged to remake. It's intriguing

0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:25.040
<v Speaker 1>to look at this place now and imagine the stories

0:34:25.080 --> 0:34:28.680
<v Speaker 1>through time that brought us to this point. It's also

0:34:28.760 --> 0:34:33.600
<v Speaker 1>a frustrating reality check attempting here. What American Prairie is

0:34:33.760 --> 0:34:37.719
<v Speaker 1>trying in Montana are the Southern Plains Land Trust is

0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:42.680
<v Speaker 1>doing in Colorado. Buying up ranches, tearing down fences, and

0:34:42.719 --> 0:34:46.160
<v Speaker 1>restoring their parts of the modern High Plains to some

0:34:46.480 --> 0:34:50.680
<v Speaker 1>semblance of its various pasts is probably as difficult on

0:34:50.719 --> 0:34:53.560
<v Speaker 1>the Southern High Plains as it is anywhere in America.

0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:59.040
<v Speaker 1>Given all the destruction and infrastructure of modern place building,

0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:02.960
<v Speaker 1>I and areas, ever pull off large scale twenty first

0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:07.120
<v Speaker 1>century rewilding projects here, it will no doubt be one

0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:11.800
<v Speaker 1>of the epic conservation accomplishments of modern American history.

0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:21.280
<v Speaker 2>So, Dan, this this script covers a lot of ground,

0:35:23.600 --> 0:35:27.440
<v Speaker 2>and I'll begin it where you do with Clovist and

0:35:27.480 --> 0:35:32.440
<v Speaker 2>Folsome people. And I guess the first question I wanted

0:35:32.440 --> 0:35:36.799
<v Speaker 2>to ask is, you know, you grow up and you

0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:39.640
<v Speaker 2>sort of think of, oh, there were cave people and

0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:45.080
<v Speaker 2>then there was civilization, right, And there's this long, you know,

0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:48.520
<v Speaker 2>oversimplification that I think is still pretty prevalent in our

0:35:48.560 --> 0:35:53.839
<v Speaker 2>culture of thinking of cave people and civilization. But as

0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:57.440
<v Speaker 2>you point out, there's there are these entire civilizations that

0:35:57.480 --> 0:35:59.600
<v Speaker 2>have their own technology, their own culture, and so I

0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:03.360
<v Speaker 2>wonder it's something that's become very fascinating to me. But

0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:05.200
<v Speaker 2>I wonder what it is that you get out of

0:36:06.719 --> 0:36:14.480
<v Speaker 2>thinking about these cultures or these people as their own societies, right,

0:36:14.600 --> 0:36:17.680
<v Speaker 2>like thinking instead of just looking at this broad spance

0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:21.440
<v Speaker 2>of time as people were kind of hunter gatherers. But

0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:25.520
<v Speaker 2>what you drill down here into the differences between Clovis

0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:27.879
<v Speaker 2>and Folsome and those who came after. And I sort

0:36:27.920 --> 0:36:29.960
<v Speaker 2>of wonder what it is if you were trying to

0:36:29.960 --> 0:36:33.720
<v Speaker 2>convince someone of the utility of thinking about these groups

0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:35.719
<v Speaker 2>in such specific terms, what that might be.

0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:43.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think, to me, what an exercise like this

0:36:43.080 --> 0:36:47.680
<v Speaker 1>one is all about, and Steven and I did as

0:36:47.719 --> 0:36:52.279
<v Speaker 1>we were driving back from visiting that Clovis site. It's

0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:54.759
<v Speaker 1>been twenty years or so ago when we did this.

0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:57.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this was kind of what we were trying

0:36:57.880 --> 0:37:04.160
<v Speaker 1>to assemble. Okay, how do you get from elephant hunters

0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:08.879
<v Speaker 1>thirteen thousand years ago to a landscape that's dominated by

0:37:08.960 --> 0:37:15.080
<v Speaker 1>cotton fields and oil feel pumpjacks and what falls in

0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:20.000
<v Speaker 1>between to make that possible? So, I think part of

0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:23.719
<v Speaker 1>the appeal of something like this to me, and one

0:37:23.719 --> 0:37:25.719
<v Speaker 1>could do this by the way. I mean, this is

0:37:25.800 --> 0:37:32.000
<v Speaker 1>just an example that applies to the the Southern high Plains,

0:37:32.080 --> 0:37:34.799
<v Speaker 1>but you could do this to just about any landscape

0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:38.200
<v Speaker 1>around the world. And what it does, it seems to me,

0:37:38.320 --> 0:37:42.359
<v Speaker 1>is it applies a kind of a context to who

0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:46.520
<v Speaker 1>we are. We are beads on a string, and that

0:37:46.680 --> 0:37:50.760
<v Speaker 1>string extends a very, very long way back into the past.

0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:54.440
<v Speaker 1>As I mentioned in the script with respect to this

0:37:54.560 --> 0:37:58.000
<v Speaker 1>particular story, I mean for the archaics, and they're just

0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:02.120
<v Speaker 1>one out of several groups that obviously occupy this same ground.

0:38:02.880 --> 0:38:07.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, they are on the ground eighty times longer

0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:11.160
<v Speaker 1>than the United States has existed in that same part

0:38:11.160 --> 0:38:14.239
<v Speaker 1>of the world, and I think a lot of Americans

0:38:14.280 --> 0:38:18.600
<v Speaker 1>we tend to be obviously dominated by thoughts about our

0:38:18.640 --> 0:38:22.440
<v Speaker 1>own lives and about the present. I mean, we go

0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:26.239
<v Speaker 1>through our lives in many cases sort of unaware, not

0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:31.120
<v Speaker 1>thinking about the fact that we're a bed on this

0:38:31.440 --> 0:38:35.560
<v Speaker 1>very very long string, and that string goes back in

0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:40.759
<v Speaker 1>fascinating ways into the past. And probably the most important

0:38:40.960 --> 0:38:44.560
<v Speaker 1>thing that you could take from this is and clearly

0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:49.680
<v Speaker 1>I borrowed that aphorism from Yefuchwan, the famous geographer who

0:38:49.719 --> 0:38:52.920
<v Speaker 1>came up with the idea of how you create human

0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:59.400
<v Speaker 1>places on the landscape. Space plus culture equals place, he said,

0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:04.839
<v Speaker 1>And part of that understanding then enables you to realize

0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 1>that the space that we occupy now, the places that

0:39:09.239 --> 0:39:12.799
<v Speaker 1>we've created on the space of a place like Montana,

0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:18.120
<v Speaker 1>SA or West Texas or eastern New Mexico, those places

0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:25.240
<v Speaker 1>have been changed by previous inhabitants multiple times over the past.

0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:28.960
<v Speaker 1>And so part of the I mean, the two kind

0:39:29.000 --> 0:39:31.439
<v Speaker 1>of models that I try to present here for people

0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:36.600
<v Speaker 1>to think about this sort of big history is Yefu

0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:40.719
<v Speaker 1>Twan's place or space plus culture equals place. And then

0:39:40.760 --> 0:39:43.640
<v Speaker 1>the other idea, of course, is this idea of possiblism,

0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:49.560
<v Speaker 1>which takes Yefu Twan's idea and tries to make you

0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:54.759
<v Speaker 1>understand that every group that comes to a particular landscape

0:39:54.880 --> 0:39:59.479
<v Speaker 1>brings a different way of looking at it, and they're

0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:03.080
<v Speaker 1>able to create a place based on their abilities, their

0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:08.040
<v Speaker 1>cultural abilities, their ideas, their technology. And so this particular

0:40:08.080 --> 0:40:10.600
<v Speaker 1>spot on the ground, how do you get from elephants

0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:15.040
<v Speaker 1>to oil wells is a kind of a good example

0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:19.160
<v Speaker 1>I think of how that works, not just in this spot,

0:40:19.239 --> 0:40:23.440
<v Speaker 1>but probably across most of the world. And you know,

0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:26.480
<v Speaker 1>to answer your question why does one do this, I

0:40:26.560 --> 0:40:29.800
<v Speaker 1>think it provides you with some sort of context about

0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:35.359
<v Speaker 1>the spot you occupy in this large progression of history.

0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:40.440
<v Speaker 2>And one element of that, especially when you talk about

0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:48.080
<v Speaker 2>transitions between cultures in this long sweeping history, is environmental collapse.

0:40:48.640 --> 0:40:50.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I.

0:40:50.360 --> 0:40:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Think if you were to just throw out that word

0:40:54.000 --> 0:40:58.160
<v Speaker 2>to someone on the street, that's something that's in the future,

0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:03.560
<v Speaker 2>and it's sort of this large long declension narrative where

0:41:03.600 --> 0:41:07.680
<v Speaker 2>we're still on our way towards that. It hasn't happened yet.

0:41:08.320 --> 0:41:10.840
<v Speaker 2>But if you look into deep time, I mean, you

0:41:10.880 --> 0:41:13.560
<v Speaker 2>don't even have to go that deep really in North America,

0:41:13.680 --> 0:41:17.120
<v Speaker 2>or Central America. There are these examples again and again

0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:20.960
<v Speaker 2>of societies that suffered environmental collapse and catastrophe.

0:41:21.680 --> 0:41:25.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, that's the explanation, for example, for why

0:41:25.640 --> 0:41:28.160
<v Speaker 1>the Clovis culture comes to an end. These are people

0:41:28.160 --> 0:41:30.640
<v Speaker 1>who specialize. I mean they did other things too, but

0:41:31.120 --> 0:41:33.560
<v Speaker 1>they seem to have been something of specialists of a

0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:39.440
<v Speaker 1>specialist economy based on elephant hunting, on hunting mammos, and

0:41:39.480 --> 0:41:42.680
<v Speaker 1>when the mammoths were gone, that particular culture was no

0:41:42.760 --> 0:41:47.840
<v Speaker 1>longer viable. So there was one early environmental collapse that

0:41:48.000 --> 0:41:51.480
<v Speaker 1>dates back to something like twelve thousand years ago. And

0:41:51.560 --> 0:41:54.480
<v Speaker 1>then they're followed by the clove or the folsome people

0:41:54.800 --> 0:41:57.880
<v Speaker 1>who have another specialty, which is on these large plesss

0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:00.719
<v Speaker 1>in bison. And after a couple of thousand years, those

0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:03.759
<v Speaker 1>animals are gone too, and you have another collapse. And

0:42:03.800 --> 0:42:07.400
<v Speaker 1>so this story, if you track through it and think

0:42:07.440 --> 0:42:10.759
<v Speaker 1>in the terms that you just presented for us, is

0:42:11.040 --> 0:42:17.200
<v Speaker 1>actually a sequence of collapses. Sometimes they're supplied internally and

0:42:17.280 --> 0:42:21.720
<v Speaker 1>sometimes they're supplied from external forces, which is probably what happened,

0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:25.080
<v Speaker 1>for example, to the bison and the collapse of the

0:42:25.080 --> 0:42:28.399
<v Speaker 1>bison economy that people had relied on for so many

0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:33.799
<v Speaker 1>thousands of years. But nonetheless that's another instance of an

0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:39.000
<v Speaker 1>environmental collapse. That means that you have to try something else.

0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:42.880
<v Speaker 1>You've got to come up with another strategy. And towards

0:42:42.880 --> 0:42:46.440
<v Speaker 1>the end of this script, I tried fairly quickly to

0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:50.560
<v Speaker 1>describe following the collapse of bison what you get as

0:42:50.600 --> 0:42:53.080
<v Speaker 1>a period, and it is a fairly brief one when

0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:57.759
<v Speaker 1>sheep herders from the Southwest will come to this landscape

0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:01.360
<v Speaker 1>and for about fifteen or twenty or thirty years they'll

0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:05.239
<v Speaker 1>herd sheep across the country, and then they're going to

0:43:05.280 --> 0:43:10.200
<v Speaker 1>be pushed back into New Mexico by essentially Anglo Americans

0:43:10.239 --> 0:43:14.120
<v Speaker 1>moving out from Texas who bring cattle, and so there's

0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:20.400
<v Speaker 1>yet a ranching, a second kind of agricultural place building

0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:26.759
<v Speaker 1>on the part of those Anglo Americans, and they're essentially ranchers,

0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:30.400
<v Speaker 1>and of course they have their own way of changing

0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:33.120
<v Speaker 1>the landscape and creating a new place, and one of

0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:36.400
<v Speaker 1>those is by getting rid of wolves and mountain lions

0:43:36.440 --> 0:43:40.080
<v Speaker 1>and coyotes and prairie dog towns and on and on,

0:43:40.280 --> 0:43:44.719
<v Speaker 1>eagles and so forth. So if you look at this

0:43:44.960 --> 0:43:47.640
<v Speaker 1>from the kind of big perspective, you not only see

0:43:47.680 --> 0:43:51.279
<v Speaker 1>these environmental collapses that lead to the next step and

0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:55.120
<v Speaker 1>people reimagining how one lives on a landscape like this.

0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:58.480
<v Speaker 1>But you get a good sense, I think particularly you

0:43:58.520 --> 0:44:00.840
<v Speaker 1>get a good sense when you reach each the present

0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:04.360
<v Speaker 1>that all these people who have lived on this particular

0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:09.279
<v Speaker 1>landscape in the past have altered it in ways that

0:44:09.920 --> 0:44:13.880
<v Speaker 1>create a different world for those of us who are

0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:16.800
<v Speaker 1>alive now. I mean, you go down to the southern

0:44:16.840 --> 0:44:20.120
<v Speaker 1>high plains. Now you don't see wolves, you don't see bison,

0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:25.640
<v Speaker 1>you don't see mammoths, you don't see in fact, in

0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:30.800
<v Speaker 1>many places grasslands remaining that produced so much solar energy

0:44:30.880 --> 0:44:35.040
<v Speaker 1>for all these early cultures. What you instead see is

0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:39.480
<v Speaker 1>a world that has been transformed for the modern global economy.

0:44:39.520 --> 0:44:43.520
<v Speaker 1>It's been turned into cotton fields and pumping units.

0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:49.719
<v Speaker 2>And you sort of bring this point up throughout the

0:44:49.800 --> 0:44:54.400
<v Speaker 2>script that one of the ways in which environmental historians

0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:59.760
<v Speaker 2>look at the past and analyze, you know, a given

0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:03.320
<v Speaker 2>sis society is how they utilize energy. Yeah, and you

0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:07.320
<v Speaker 2>talk about because Elliott West, I think in the in

0:45:07.400 --> 0:45:11.719
<v Speaker 2>the Contested Planes, Elliott West, he spends a few pages

0:45:12.440 --> 0:45:15.440
<v Speaker 2>describing this this cycle of energy from the sun, and

0:45:15.480 --> 0:45:20.399
<v Speaker 2>this is where as organisms we you know, that's what

0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:23.560
<v Speaker 2>that's what sort of allows humanity to flourish in places,

0:45:23.680 --> 0:45:26.360
<v Speaker 2>is their ability to utilize energy from the natural world,

0:45:26.680 --> 0:45:28.160
<v Speaker 2>and you bring that up to the presence. So I

0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:32.480
<v Speaker 2>wonder if you could sort of talk about why, why

0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:35.919
<v Speaker 2>why environmental historians are interested in these questions and sort

0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:39.239
<v Speaker 2>of how it what insights it offers. As far as

0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:40.319
<v Speaker 2>the great planes.

0:45:40.600 --> 0:45:43.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, with the great planes, clearly, I mean what you

0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:48.160
<v Speaker 1>had was a world that was propelled by solar energy,

0:45:48.239 --> 0:45:52.040
<v Speaker 1>and it was a fairly direct translation of the energy

0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:57.799
<v Speaker 1>from the sun into plants via photosynthesis, producing grasses that

0:45:57.840 --> 0:46:02.839
<v Speaker 1>were eaten by grazing animal and then of course predators

0:46:02.960 --> 0:46:06.480
<v Speaker 1>and humans do play the role of predators in these

0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:10.120
<v Speaker 1>early economies, are able to eat the animals that eat grass.

0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:14.160
<v Speaker 1>So we're interested in this kind of thing throughout history

0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:19.480
<v Speaker 1>because societies of every kind, ecologies of every kind have

0:46:19.680 --> 0:46:24.800
<v Speaker 1>to run on energy of some form, and solar energy

0:46:24.960 --> 0:46:30.160
<v Speaker 1>is the most widely used, particularly has been up until

0:46:30.239 --> 0:46:34.040
<v Speaker 1>the last few hundred years of human existence. I mean,

0:46:34.040 --> 0:46:37.120
<v Speaker 1>we've relied on places that produce a lot of solar energy.

0:46:37.400 --> 0:46:43.440
<v Speaker 1>So grasslands in the past were really wonderful spots for humans,

0:46:43.480 --> 0:46:47.160
<v Speaker 1>and it's probably no accident that that's the kind of

0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:51.800
<v Speaker 1>country that we evolved into consciousness in. We were drawn

0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:57.400
<v Speaker 1>out of forest into grasslands in Africa because those grasslands

0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:00.440
<v Speaker 1>were producing a kind of a direct translation of solar

0:47:00.560 --> 0:47:04.000
<v Speaker 1>energy into the kind of energy that we could use,

0:47:04.400 --> 0:47:07.120
<v Speaker 1>into the sort of food sources that we could use.

0:47:08.120 --> 0:47:12.840
<v Speaker 1>And historians, i think have been intrigued by this because

0:47:13.160 --> 0:47:18.680
<v Speaker 1>we've realized that over the past several generations of human history,

0:47:19.320 --> 0:47:23.400
<v Speaker 1>we've moved away from this sort of direct application of

0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:27.680
<v Speaker 1>solar power into the use of in the modern world.

0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:32.320
<v Speaker 1>Of course, it's been driven largely by fossil solar power,

0:47:32.719 --> 0:47:35.400
<v Speaker 1>by the kinds of power that one is able to

0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:44.320
<v Speaker 1>translate from these buried ancient sources of energy of carbon

0:47:44.719 --> 0:47:49.280
<v Speaker 1>that we began tapping into with the Great Industrial Revolution

0:47:49.440 --> 0:47:52.960
<v Speaker 1>that used coal, and now, of course oil is our

0:47:53.080 --> 0:47:57.239
<v Speaker 1>primary source of fossil fuel. And so that story, I

0:47:57.280 --> 0:48:01.240
<v Speaker 1>mean is really visible in the out of the southern

0:48:01.320 --> 0:48:06.960
<v Speaker 1>high plains. And it's interesting to me that the grassland

0:48:07.920 --> 0:48:15.120
<v Speaker 1>solar direct solar powered phase of this story occupies a

0:48:15.239 --> 0:48:21.200
<v Speaker 1>much larger piece of time than the fossil fuel story.

0:48:21.560 --> 0:48:23.440
<v Speaker 1>The fossil fuel story in this part of the world

0:48:23.440 --> 0:48:27.280
<v Speaker 1>only dates to about nineteen hundred and so it's little

0:48:27.320 --> 0:48:32.080
<v Speaker 1>more than a century old. On the other hand, you

0:48:32.200 --> 0:48:38.480
<v Speaker 1>go back thirteen thousand years with lifestyles based primarily on

0:48:38.600 --> 0:48:42.080
<v Speaker 1>solar energy. So it's kind of another one of those

0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:46.680
<v Speaker 1>fascinating things to think about, and that's probably why histories

0:48:46.719 --> 0:48:47.920
<v Speaker 1>have spent a lot of time with it.

0:48:48.719 --> 0:48:52.880
<v Speaker 2>One last question, because you mentioned it in your previous answer.

0:48:52.920 --> 0:48:57.200
<v Speaker 2>But when a lot of people think of grasslands, they

0:48:57.239 --> 0:49:03.399
<v Speaker 2>think of a big empty right, Yeah, but you raised

0:49:03.440 --> 0:49:05.319
<v Speaker 2>the point in this article that it's one of our

0:49:05.360 --> 0:49:09.400
<v Speaker 2>most threatened landscapes. It's one of our most threatened habitats.

0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:12.400
<v Speaker 2>There's only a few chunks here and there that exist

0:49:12.560 --> 0:49:17.000
<v Speaker 2>as as they were, and it's still shrinking. So I

0:49:17.000 --> 0:49:21.720
<v Speaker 2>wonder if you can just speak to appreciation for grasslands

0:49:21.560 --> 0:49:24.840
<v Speaker 2>as a Western landscape and in sort of the current

0:49:24.880 --> 0:49:26.240
<v Speaker 2>state of our grasslands.

0:49:26.360 --> 0:49:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's that's a good observation, to be sure, because

0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:36.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean, grasslands are one of the most threatened ecosystems

0:49:36.280 --> 0:49:39.720
<v Speaker 1>all around the world, not just in the United States,

0:49:40.480 --> 0:49:43.959
<v Speaker 1>and what happened to our grasslands and of course our

0:49:44.080 --> 0:49:48.480
<v Speaker 1>grand We have grasslands in many parts of North America.

0:49:48.640 --> 0:49:52.000
<v Speaker 1>But the vast grasslands of the Great Plains, that five

0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:56.080
<v Speaker 1>hundred miles basically west of the Mississippi River up to

0:49:56.120 --> 0:49:59.800
<v Speaker 1>the foothills of the Rockies was the that was the

0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:03.799
<v Speaker 1>great Bison Belt. That was sort of the version of

0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:08.839
<v Speaker 1>an American Serengetti with all these diverse animals, and it

0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:11.360
<v Speaker 1>was a part of the West. And I'll talk about

0:50:11.400 --> 0:50:14.719
<v Speaker 1>this in one of the future episodes. It was a

0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:18.160
<v Speaker 1>part of the West that unlike the Rockies, unlike the

0:50:18.200 --> 0:50:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Colorado Plateau, unlike the rainforest of the Pacific Coast, that

0:50:23.480 --> 0:50:30.000
<v Speaker 1>didn't get much public land. Most of the Great Plains,

0:50:30.040 --> 0:50:35.160
<v Speaker 1>because it seemed to be easily plowed up and easily homesteaded,

0:50:35.480 --> 0:50:41.239
<v Speaker 1>ended up being privatized. And that privatization, I mean, it's

0:50:41.320 --> 0:50:46.279
<v Speaker 1>obviously one of the great legends and stories of the

0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:51.640
<v Speaker 1>American West, the homesteading story. But that homesteading story basically

0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:56.200
<v Speaker 1>destroyed a lot of the Western ecology of the grasslands.

0:50:56.239 --> 0:50:59.880
<v Speaker 1>And so the grasslands ended up many of them being plowed,

0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:04.160
<v Speaker 1>being infested with weeds by the introduction of domestic animals

0:51:04.200 --> 0:51:06.680
<v Speaker 1>from other parts of the world and hay from other

0:51:06.760 --> 0:51:10.640
<v Speaker 1>parts of the world, and as a result, we've struggled

0:51:11.040 --> 0:51:15.319
<v Speaker 1>in our own time to try to recreate some facsimile

0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:18.960
<v Speaker 1>of what our great grasslands once were. I mean, that's

0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:22.920
<v Speaker 1>what American Prairie in Central Montana, I think, is trying

0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:26.799
<v Speaker 1>to do. They're trying to once again focus on the

0:51:26.880 --> 0:51:31.640
<v Speaker 1>grasslands in this wonderful Serengetti country we once had, and

0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:34.600
<v Speaker 1>also trying to reintroduce some of the animals that were

0:51:34.640 --> 0:51:38.480
<v Speaker 1>lost from it. So it's one of the great I

0:51:38.520 --> 0:51:43.000
<v Speaker 1>think losses and in some respects kind of historical mistakes

0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:48.200
<v Speaker 1>of the frontier of the American West, that so much

0:51:48.239 --> 0:51:51.680
<v Speaker 1>of that country was torn up and destroyed. I mean,

0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:54.040
<v Speaker 1>I talked a little about the dust Bowl in this

0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:57.319
<v Speaker 1>particular episode, and I'll talk about it more later, but

0:51:57.640 --> 0:52:00.880
<v Speaker 1>it of course is the greatest environ our mental tragedy

0:52:00.920 --> 0:52:03.280
<v Speaker 1>in the history of the American West, and it takes

0:52:03.320 --> 0:52:05.000
<v Speaker 1>place in this kind of landscape.

0:52:05.760 --> 0:52:07.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, Dan, appreciate it.

0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:08.680
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Antal. Thanks