1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to trillions. I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric Belchier. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Is Eric. We're gonna talk about something that's not actually 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: an easy f today yet yet that's that's the key word, 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: and that's the word everybody is hinging on yet. And 5 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: the what we're talking about is bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and uh, 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: this intense and that's with the Capital I race to 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: come out with the first Bitcoin et F which may 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: or may not happen, and we've had some rejections already. Yeah, 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: it looks pretty pessimistic right now, but the energy and 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: excite message, you know, I've equated it to the Cannonball Run, 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: which was this is a movie where they whoever could 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: get to New York to l A the fastest got 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: a million dollars. So some people tried to go in ambulances, 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: some people took Lamborghini's, some people dressed up as priests 15 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: just to get through the cops and whatnot. The filings 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: for Bitcoin and remind me of that. You see all 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: kinds of deviations and tricks and ways that they're trying 18 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: to appeal to the SEC's concern and so far there's 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: been twenty six filings eleven alive today, But it's been 20 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: just a crazy sort of derby to try to get 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: out to be first. Then if you are first, it's 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: probably going to be uh at least the billion dollar 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: e t F, if not a ten billion dollar fund. 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: And one of the guys in the cannonball run is 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: actually here with us today, one of the newest entrants 26 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: who has a very clever and interesting way to try 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: to get through the sec His name is Matt Hogan. 28 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: He's at bit Wise Asset Management. How do you know, Matt. 29 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: Matt is kind of an e t F analyst pioneer. 30 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: When I was started covering ETFs in two thousand and six, 31 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: there really was no model for being an e t 32 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: F analyst except for Matt Hogan, Dave Nateigg, and a 33 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: couple of guys who kind of aren't around anymore. Um. 34 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: But Matt and Dave in particular had an e t 35 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: F podcast and I listened to it religiously. They were 36 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: talking about flow in and out of junk bond ETFs 37 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: ten years before anyone else cared, and I learned a 38 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: lot from them. And so Matt has also went off 39 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: to basically run the inside et F conference which is 40 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: that we've been there. Yeah, that's the way I went 41 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: and recorded all the people and you found you got 42 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 1: obsessed in the ice cream truck from Deutsche Bank. I mean, yeah, 43 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: not um, some of the marketing is getting really crazy there. 44 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: But Matt essentially is one of the most well known 45 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: E t F analysts and thought leaders in the space, 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: and boom about I don't know, six months to a 47 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,399 Speaker 1: year ago, dude went crypto. He went crypto soccer. Let's 48 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: talk to him on this week's episode. Matt Hogan, who 49 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: went crypto? Okay, so, just in case you've never heard 50 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: of the bitcoin, it's this thing. It went up really 51 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: really high and then it came down. And that was 52 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: when Matt was like, this seems like a good idea. Yeah, yeah, 53 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: you literally went in when bitcoin came down in what January? 54 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: I think I'm largely responsible for the fall, at least 55 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: at least responsible. Now. There's nothing like jumping in trying 56 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: to catch a falling knife. So so, what what did 57 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: you see? What did I see? It's I'll answer that 58 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: in two ways because there are two sides to it. 59 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: So on the one hand, it's not like I had 60 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: just jumped into the crypto space. I had been following 61 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: it for a long time. We had actually had the 62 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: Winkelvy Twins at our conference. I think in twenty you 63 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: can't talk about bitcoin without talking about that. You have 64 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: to talk about They're always, they're always both. The's never 65 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: one that's well, you always have to see one but 66 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: and then you can just factor it. But um, so 67 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: I had been I've been interested in the technology. I 68 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: think there's a legitimate case for a non sovereign store value. 69 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: I think some of the smart contracting technology is interesting, 70 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: important and possibly transformative. But I had gotten sort of 71 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: to the end of what I wanted to accomplish for 72 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: the core of what I was doing in E t 73 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: F s right, as Eric said, when I got into 74 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: E t F, there was no framework for analyzing E 75 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: t F, there was no one following flows. Dave Nodding 76 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: and I built the first et rating system. I probably 77 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: gave an E t F one on one presentation. You're 78 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: like Eric, Eric, I'm pri Eric. That's right. He's a better, younger, 79 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: more handsome version of him. He's the Woody Guthrie to 80 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: my Bob, kind of generous, all supportive. Um But but 81 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: I was looking at what to do next, and what 82 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to do. What I love to do is 83 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: I love taking things that are complex and opaque and 84 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: that people don't understand and trying to help make them simple, 85 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: easy and digestible for investors, particularly when I think it 86 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: can have a positive impact on investor portfolios. So I 87 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: looked at all the things that were out there. Actually 88 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: ended up with two things I was really considering. One 89 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: was crypto. The other were options strategies, both of which 90 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: I think can be additive to portfolios. But Crypto had 91 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: the most potential for sort of transformative effect, the most 92 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: interesting disruptive potential, and also the worst existing analytics and 93 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: educational material reals surrounding it. And I thought I could 94 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: help explain crypto to UH, to investors, to advisors, to institutions, 95 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: to family offices, and that's what I've been doing for 96 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: the last six months. I'm guessing you have had a 97 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: lot of meetings. I have had a lot of one 98 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: understands what's going on, and everyone wants to learn. Everyone 99 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: will take your meeting to talk about crypto. That's absolutely true, UH, 100 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: and you get you get from people who love it, 101 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: and I just want to talk about how great it 102 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 1: is to people who think it's actually worth less than zero, 103 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: which is an interesting perspective. So that that spread that 104 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: margin between those two sides, you could say that there's 105 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: um full crypto, maybe a little half crypto, and then 106 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: just anti crypto. Let me jump in on this um 107 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: to go full crypto, I think is when you see 108 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: somebody sit down and try and say something like your 109 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: mind is like in the horse in the Age of Horses, 110 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: and I'm talking about cars, like kind of weird stuff 111 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: like that, like evangelism, hardcore, the kind of stuff that 112 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: I think sort of scares the sec especially when you 113 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: bring in like monetary policy and all kinds of stuff 114 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: like that. Right, yea overthrow, absolutely absolutely so. And people 115 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: who are predicting bitcoin prices will be a million dollars 116 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: and six months are how bigcoin? Where are you on zero? 117 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: How crypto? How crypto? Give us a rating? Well, I'm 118 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: probably middle crypto. I'm probably middle crypto, probably probably crypto, 119 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: which is to say, I believe that it has the 120 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: potential to have transformative effects on various parts of the 121 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: financial ecosystem, and I believe it has the potential to 122 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: be a legitimate store value, but those aren't proven, and 123 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: there's a potential that those don't pan out. And let 124 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: me ask one question about this. I think that the 125 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: energy and the resilience of bitcoin is really what has 126 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: gotten me to be someone of a believer. Every time 127 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: it should be dead, it comes back to life and 128 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: you meet people. It's got such a underworld that's enthusiastic. 129 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: It does remind me of ets in a way, or 130 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: passive investing. Here's the one problem I have, Like say, 131 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: marijuana is on the rise in terms of investing, I 132 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: literally smell more pot on the streets lately. I can 133 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: literally smell it or see it, like when these things 134 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: emerge from the underground. Normally you can like see them 135 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: around you in your life. I'm still yet to meet 136 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 1: anybody or know anybody that's used bitcoin as a currency, 137 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: and I thought I would. Yeah, I don't think it 138 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: is a currency. I think I think you're expecting the 139 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: wrong thing, Eric, because there are various reasons it's not 140 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: a currency. The transaction rate is slow. It's actually a 141 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: taxable event every time you buy something with bitcoin. So 142 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: if you went to buy a cup of coffee with bitcoin, 143 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: that would be a capital gains taxable event. That's not 144 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: an experience anyone wants to have, So you're never if 145 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: you're expecting to see it in your daily life and 146 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: you live outside of South Park in San Francisco, uh, 147 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: you will not have that experience. Now, if you want 148 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: to come out to my office and go out and 149 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: buy a latte with ethereum, you can do it. But 150 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: that's a unique bubble situation. So what what you should 151 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: expect to see is you should expect to see it 152 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: fulfilling the role that gold has an investors portfolio as 153 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: a non sovereign store value. You should expect to see 154 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: it start to chip away at the parts of the 155 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: financial ecosystem that are so grossly overpriced and indulgent, like 156 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: like international transfers of money and remittances where Western Union 157 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: is charging eight or nine percent and you can do 158 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: that with crypto for pennies and instantaneous settlement. It's always 159 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: the case that new technologies disrupt the fattest part of 160 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: the ecosystem where they can have a ten x reduction 161 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: in costs. That that starts at international remittances. It might 162 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: start at international trade transfer, it might start things like 163 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: s grow for smart contracts, all of which are wildly overpriced. 164 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: So you're gonna see it in a professional setting long 165 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: before you see it in a sort of retail setting. 166 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: I think retail settings could be ten years from now. 167 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: But let's take this investing now. Okay, so let's say 168 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: it's used as a commodity. I want in. I read 169 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: a book on cryptocurrencies on on a plane ride or 170 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: bitcoin rather and the details to get a wallet and 171 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: set it up. We're pretty numbing. They turned me off. 172 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: It was too complicated. So I get the need for 173 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: a fund? What is that? What you do? Now? You 174 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: have a fund? It's not an e t F for 175 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: a mutual fund, obviously, it said, what a private fund 176 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: that offers a convenient way for people to get exposure? 177 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: Key talk about that. Yeah. Sure, So we launched the 178 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: first cryptocurrency index fund. It's called the Hold ten Private 179 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: Index Fund. It's available to all accredited investors, anyone with 180 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars a year and income or a 181 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: million dollars in assets. It holds importantly, not just bitcoin, 182 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: but the top ten cryptocurrencies weighted by market cap. Uh. 183 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: Those capture about eight to eighty five percent of the market. 184 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: What are those ten. What are those ten? They are bitcoin, ethereum, blight, cooin, 185 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: bitcoin cash, MA, narrow Dash. I'm leaving out a few. Ripple. 186 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: Ripple is in there, absolutely, and they change that proves 187 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: only when you can rattle all those off. I think 188 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: it might through. Yeah intentionally. Yeah, the seven was waiting 189 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: for you to suggest ripple and then agreeing that it 190 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: was in um No. But I think that's really important, right, 191 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: Like buying just bitcoin would be like buying just a 192 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: o L during the start of the tech boom. This 193 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: is an early stage technology. We don't know who the 194 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: winners would be. It could be that the first move 195 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: like Amazon dominates. It could be that bitcoin is my 196 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: space and there's a Facebook that you have to emerge. 197 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: So having a diversified exposure is I think a better 198 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: outcome for investors. And we make it easy, relatively cheap 199 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: in the crypto space and convenient for people to do 200 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: that by investing in our fund. And we have hundreds 201 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: of investors and millions of dollars in assets. How similar 202 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: do you think what we just lived through with the 203 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: bitcoin going to twenty thousand and last December and then 204 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,599 Speaker 1: coming down and you know who knows where it is 205 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: and where it will go. How similar do you think 206 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: that was to to I don't think it was similar 207 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: to in that in everyone had an overweight to technology 208 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 1: and their portfolios, and today, um, almost no one has 209 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: an overweight to crypto and their portfolios. There are the 210 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: dent crypto people that do, but our estimate it in 211 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: our fund as people have but about two point three 212 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: percent of their liquid net worth invested in the crypto markets, 213 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: which is not the same case as it was in technology. 214 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: So look, crypto has had I think it's six or 215 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: more draw downs. This is actually not abnormal. Even if 216 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: you look back at some other sort of speculative assets 217 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: that were reborn, like gold after we went off the 218 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: gold standard, it had large ups and downs. Um, I 219 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: don't think that was. I think we're actually a long 220 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: way from that sort of hysteria. I think that was 221 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: maybe you just described what sounds like a good as 222 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: a class for a hedge fund. Right. It goes up 223 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 1: and down, It's very volatile. There's some concerns. This is 224 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 1: what the SEC is concerned about. Should what you just 225 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: describe be democratized via the et F? Oh? Absolutely absolutely, yeah, 226 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: But let let me let me let me, let me 227 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: let pretend on the se C commissioner. Sure, yeah, okay, 228 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: it's just got really interested in, Mr SEC commission I 229 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: don't know what my lawyers would say about this, UM 230 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: I would say two things, right. So, so first, on 231 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: the one hand, people already are getting access to crypto 232 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: and bitcoin, not just through funds like ours, but there 233 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: are more accounts at coin based than there are at 234 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: Charles Schwap. So people are accessing this space with limited 235 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: education in unregulated vehicles at an expanding rate, and if 236 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 1: we wait long enough, that number is just going to 237 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: get bigger and bigger. All of those people would be 238 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: better in a vehicle that have been vetted and approved 239 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: by the SEC, with requirements around disclosure, with clarity around 240 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 1: trading costs, all the other factors that come with that. 241 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: So that's that's that's one big piece of it. The 242 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: other big piece of it is why should investors want 243 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 1: this in the first place? And the answer to that 244 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: is just math. If you take away the emotion from crypto, 245 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: if you stop thinking about it as this asset, that's 246 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: people are a pent in or down the rabbit hole 247 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: or whatever, and you just look at the data. It 248 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: is a highly liquid, high return, high potential risk, low 249 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: correlated asset. That's a magic combination. And even a one 250 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: percent allocation to crypto in your portfolio if you rebalanced 251 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: it the way an institution would since would have boosted 252 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: your sharp ratio by on a portfolio. So historically it's 253 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: been a great portfolio, diverse fire at very low levels, 254 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: and we think all investors, not just rich investors who 255 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: qualify for our funds, should have have the ability to 256 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: access that. Mistress Easy, what do you say to that, Well, 257 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: I personally agree. I'm very liberal with this. I just 258 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: think that it's going to be called a bitcoin fund 259 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: that you're totally not, Mistress ec I know which is good. Now, 260 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: I'm Hester Pierce here. Hester Pierce is the commissioner that 261 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: has dissented from the rest of the commission on this, 262 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: and I agree, and I called a wolf and wolf's clothing. 263 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: It's literally called a bitcoin fund. People know at this point, No, 264 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: it's kind of uh, look, it's not large cap stocks, 265 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: it's e t f s like the oil fund. I 266 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 1: know you work at John hilland now that to me 267 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: are a wolf in sheep's clothing. Um. I also think 268 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: that there's triple leveraged e t F that are more 269 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: volatile than a bitcoin et F would be. And I 270 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: think that it's in the best interest of the providers 271 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: of these e t F to make it work. And 272 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: if you and Matt as you know, when the e 273 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: t F structure rocks, you can throw anything in there 274 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: and it will be the best deal possible because it's 275 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: going to bring in the richest, deepest liquidity from these 276 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: market makers who will just figure out the best way 277 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: to arbitrage. They will bring liquidity to those exchanges. In fact, 278 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: the e t F you could argue, will will help 279 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: clean up and add more liquidity to the exchanges. So 280 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: it's almost like a build it and and the e 281 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: t F is actually what should be the proactive thing here, 282 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: not the reactive ten years down the road. I mean, 283 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: I will add I will just say in the SEC's defense, 284 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: they are being very thoughtful about it, very cautious about 285 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: the questions that they're raising. Right, so they recently rejected 286 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: the winklevoss Is application for crypto et F. The questions 287 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: that they raised in those objections are legitimate questions that 288 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: deserve very clear answers. I've actually been hugely impressed how 289 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: fast they've come up to speed on the crypto space 290 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: from say a year ago. They're dedicating real resources to it. So, um, 291 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: I think they will get there. I think it is 292 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: a matter of when and not if. But they're actually 293 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: doing a good job asking good questions distill their reservations 294 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: down to a few points. Well, so you have to 295 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: think about that. There's probably two sets of reservations that 296 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: are worth talking about. There's the rejection of the Winklevoss 297 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: application as one, and then there's the earlier letter from 298 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: Dahlia as another. So the rejection of the Winklevoss application 299 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: had to do largely with the integrity of the underlying 300 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: markets and the ability to prove that crypto or bitcoin 301 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: in that case trades cleanly and with no market manipulation. Remember, 302 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: crypto exchanges are largely lightly regulated or not regulated at all, 303 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: and the SEC is concerned that those markets may be manipulated. 304 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: And the way to overcome those concerns is through greater 305 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: data and analysis of of of pricing across different markets, 306 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: of of volume trends, etcetera. And so what what they 307 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: sort of hinted was, if this stuff comes into the 308 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: light that might change it, but the way it stands now, no, 309 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: that's that's correct. They want to see more trading on 310 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: more highly regulated exchanges. That's the direction the industry is going. 311 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: I also think additional data analysis around the trading that's 312 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: going on in those exchanges. That particular application also is 313 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: focused on a single exchange. There's actually a broad ecosystem 314 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: of crypto exchanges, so um, I think I think that 315 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: will overcome. The earlier letter that the SEC wrote in 316 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: January or December of this year also looked at things 317 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: like custody, like accurately striking a NAV, like pricing in 318 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: the crypto space, all of which our questions, I will say, 319 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: and one of the things we're excited to talk to 320 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: the SEC about. Those are questions that we deal with 321 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: in our own fund on a daily basis. UM, So 322 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: we have some experience with that, but but they're legitimate questions. UM. 323 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: You know. One of the reasons I am also in 324 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: favor of an e t F is that the current 325 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: product out there that people are using in place of 326 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: an e t F. In fact, Schwab even puts it 327 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: in their et F category is g BTC, which is 328 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: a I think it's called the Bitcoin Investment Trust. It's 329 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: a private trust traded over the counter, and last time 330 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: I checked, the premiums were between fift and it's sort 331 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: of like a closed then fund in a way. So 332 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: in other words, bitcoin could go up and you could 333 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: go down simply because people sell out of the fund. 334 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: Because there's a fixed amount of shares trading. It seems 335 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: to me that that should factor in because you're gonna 336 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: get more and more people piling into something that is 337 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: really flawed, and an e t F would probably i've 338 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: heard maybe traded a premium of one to two with 339 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: the kind of market makers that would be involved. What 340 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: do you think of that? I couldn't agree more. Uh, 341 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: And our analysis of the arbitrage possibility in the depth 342 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: of market in the crypto space, not just for bitcoin, 343 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: but but across the largest assets in the crypto space 344 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: suggest it will trade at spreads that are around the 345 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 1: average for the e t F industry, which is somewhere 346 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: between ten and twenty basis points, and that premiums will 347 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: depend on the direction of of of trading and interest. Um. 348 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: It's absolutely true. GBTC proves that people want to buy 349 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: exchange traded crypto. They are buying a flawed vehicle in 350 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: that it trades at a large premium and discount. We 351 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: know from the closed end funds, the history of closed 352 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: end funds that buying closed end funds when they're trading 353 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: at large premium is not a winning strategy, and so 354 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: it would be better if investors could buy at a 355 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: fair price. And there's two Bitcoin e t n s 356 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: in Sweden which I've covered a lot. They do find 357 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: they trade it pretty small premiums. They've seen flows in 358 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: and out. They've been around for a couple of years. 359 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: They made it through that huge spike up and the 360 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: draw down. Um is that not enough of an incubator 361 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: for the SEC? I think it's a great proofpoint of 362 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: what crypto can do. But remember the SEC doesn't care 363 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: what's going on in other markets. They're concerned about protecting 364 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: US investors. And again they're asking good questions. So what 365 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: I think people are making a mistake when they see 366 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: these rejections is assuming that this is the end of 367 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: the road, that there is no way around these objections. 368 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: I don't think that's true at all. The crypto space 369 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: moves at an extraordinary pace, the pace that which market 370 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: makers are entering crypto. Six months ago, there were very 371 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: few major market makers. Now we have Jane Street, we 372 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: have Susquehannah Goldman, saxes in Um. The spaces evolving very rapidly. 373 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: I think these objections will be overcome quickly and not 374 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: at the slow pace that some people project. So let's 375 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: talk about that. Because there's outstanding applications that will be 376 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: discussed in the near future. What do you think their 377 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: opportunities are? Where? And where's the white space that the 378 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: SEC hasn't addressed yet? And if I could, I'll just 379 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: read a couple them off, right. So there's the Van 380 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: Eck solid x bitcoin trust, which could be decided on 381 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: in a month or less. There's yours, there's Granite Shares Bitcoin, 382 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: Granite Share short bitcoin, and then Direct has a couple 383 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: one time and two times which are leveraged, which obviously 384 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: probably stand a snowball's chance of hell unless one of 385 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: the other ones get US approved first. Uh who's the favorite? Well, well, 386 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: I can't. I can't talk about any particular filing. I'm 387 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: not going to handicap any particular filing, including our own, 388 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: so I can't. I'm not gonna make a singular prediction. 389 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: What I'll say is that we believe and the reason 390 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: that we filed for a product, that the preconditions to 391 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: allow an e t F to trade UM exists today. Right, 392 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: So we think we can strike a nav accurately. We 393 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: think we can price crypto accurately. We think the underlying 394 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: markets are sound. Otherwise we wouldn't have filed for an 395 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: e t F. I think it's just a matter of 396 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: how long and how much data the SEC requires to 397 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: support that to get that launched. So I don't know, Uh, 398 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: I don't know which of those applications will be filed first. 399 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: We're broadly supportive of any crypto et F getting launched 400 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: into the market. We think that an index based product 401 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: can make sense for some investors. UM. But I think 402 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: the preconditions to allow crypto et f s to function 403 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: exist today. So I gave odds this morning on this 404 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: and on average, I'd say I I give seven percent 405 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: chance this year and maybe thirty chance by the end 406 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,239 Speaker 1: of twenty nine. Am I in the ballpark in your opinion? Oh, 407 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: I'm obviously more bullish than that. We wouldn't have filed 408 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: any t F if we didn't think it could be 409 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: approved in the near term. So, um, we're excited to 410 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: talk to the SEC and uh and we're we're hopeful 411 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: for that dialogue. Your lawyer will love the answer to 412 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: that question. That was really good. How do you lawyer up? 413 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: I feel my lawyers getting on my shoulders right now. 414 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: We saw him. I saw him, he's right there, he's 415 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: having a coffee. Yeah. These aren't billable hour How do 416 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 1: you layer up for this? Yeah? So so they're they're 417 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: a wide variety of good of good lawyers. We filed 418 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: our our et F with better price, but really it's 419 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: about just getting involved well with the SEC and talking 420 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: with them, you know. As as we mentioned earlier John 421 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: Highland as part of our team. John launched the first 422 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: Crude Oil Future zt F, the first natural gas ETF. 423 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: He has a lot of experience going first in the 424 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: crypto space. Um, but we just filed. We we haven't 425 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: engaged with them. We're we're looking forward to that. And 426 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: what kind of dialogue do you expect now that you're 427 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: on the other side of the WINKLEFI hearing? Like, what 428 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: what what kind of questions are you preparing for? Yeah? So, 429 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: so the thing that we can do that we hope 430 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: will be helpful. Uh, And I don't know because I 431 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: haven't sat down with the SEC. We have an extensive 432 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: amount of data, you know, we pulled data from all 433 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: major crypto exchanges around the world, so we have a 434 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: lot of analysis about pricing in crypto and how true 435 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: the sort of law of one prices and with the 436 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: crypto So I think I think analysis on around the 437 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: quality of the crypto markets is something that we can 438 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: add value to. And we also have this experience running 439 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: a fund and striking and have and serving investors in 440 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: pricing crypto that we can talk about. Again, I don't 441 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: know how helpful those things will be, but I think 442 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: they're informative to us. Your fund, right, which you have said, 443 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: has been called the vanguard of crypto currency, right, Okay, 444 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: and it does charge two point five Yeah, that's that's 445 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: not very vanguardian. What do you say to that. I 446 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: don't know, that seems pretty um. Hedge fund, well, a 447 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: hedge fund with yeah, yeah, let's be clear, hedge fund 448 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: would charge two in twenty last year, are are our 449 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: fund was up? I think over the last twelve months 450 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: the index that is behind our funds some of this 451 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: is back tested data sum is live is up a 452 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: thousand percent, so that would be a two expense ratio, 453 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: which is a lot more than two word in a 454 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: hedge fund structure. So why is it two and a 455 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: half percent for regular accounts and two percent for counts 456 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: of a million dollars or up. The answer is that 457 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: the crypto market is a nascent market, so the costs 458 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: and crypto are substantially higher. Custoding crypto on an institutional 459 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: basis is really not cheap. All the audit tax, et 460 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: cetera is not cheap. It is expensive VSA v A. 461 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: You know an smpt F obviously, but in the crypto space, 462 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: two percent is or two and a half percent is 463 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: actually on the lower side of average. Speaking of Vanguard, 464 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: I know one of your idols and somebody who's been 465 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: very influential in her career is John Bogel, Vanguard's founder. 466 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: He was asked about bitcoin. He's been asked a few times. 467 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: I think reporters just do it to troll him to 468 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: see how how far he'll go with his answer. One 469 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: of the ones that stuck out with me is he 470 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: said avoid it like the plague, and he said some 471 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: other ones we asked him if Vanguard whatever launched a 472 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: bitcoin fund, and he said, over my dead body. So 473 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: he's got these colorful, hardcore answers, how do you marry 474 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: those two things? Somebody who's been so strong in the 475 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: passive world completely kind of crapping on your It's the 476 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: Matt Hogan paradox, mat paradox. Well, I'd start by saying, 477 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: didn't he say the same thing about e t f s. 478 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: He was extremely negative about e t f s, and 479 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: I maybe called them weapons of mass destruction or there 480 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: were other fantastic terms. He is a hero of mine, 481 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: and we've seen similar negative comments from Warren Buffett and 482 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: other investment heroes that we all look up to. Look, 483 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: it is a disruptive technology. It is divisive, it is new. 484 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: Often when disruptive technologies come into uh come into being, 485 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: they're dismissed by a large portion of the population. If 486 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: they were immediately embraced by everyone, it wouldn't have the 487 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: risk reward payoff that it has today. So I'm not 488 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: all that surprised. He also, I would add, and this 489 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: is directly relevant, he's not a fan of commodity investing either. 490 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: He likes assets that have cash flows and returns and crypto. 491 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: Unless you're talking about staking rewards and emissions and air drops, 492 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: it doesn't have those same cash flows in return. So 493 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: I think a lot of where he trips up on 494 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: is the same place he trips up on commodities. But 495 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: but you know, I think, I don't know, five ten 496 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: years from now, maybe he'll come around. Um, I gotta 497 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: ask about the filing. Do you have a ticker in mine? 498 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: Because I know it's you know, it's the biggest thing 499 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: in this. Also, somebody said yours is called the hold index. 500 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: Why isn't it h O D l Yeah, So I 501 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: can't talk about our filing. Here's a little lawyer. I 502 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: can't talk specifically about our filing. We have talked about 503 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: how much fun we are going to have selecting the 504 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: ticker for it. We are going to get all available 505 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: tickers and put them on a wall and run through 506 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: them until we find the exact right one. I do 507 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: know who has reserved the whole h O d l 508 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 1: uh ticker, and so I hope to have a conversation 509 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: with him. That would be a nice one. But um, 510 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, do you guys have one in mind? 511 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: No comment, my lawyer says, I can't say you're the 512 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: king of tickers, Eric, I'd have to think coin is 513 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: good and it's the the blockchain et f used coin 514 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: with a K. That's kind of a cool one um 515 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: try and kind of hard in my opinion, Eric, change 516 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: that letter. We could go with, Eric, just put it 517 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: out there, celebrity adorsement. So let's play this out. Say 518 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: there is say you get approved first, right, good for you. 519 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: You're in there for your ticker is h O, d L. 520 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: How much room for other crypto or bitcoin or or 521 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: etcetera products? Et products? Do you think there is? Yeah? 522 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: So I think there will be a lot of single 523 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: coin products, at least because I think there's obvious demand 524 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: for Bitcoin and ethereum and a few other single coins. 525 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: We think there are other indexes that are interesting and valuable. 526 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: We're just about to launch mid caps, small cap, and 527 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: total market indexes covering up to a hundred coins. There 528 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: are also strategies that we think will be valuable. Look, 529 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: this is a three billion dollar market today. We think 530 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: it could be many many multiples of that if it 531 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: becomes a couple of trillion dollar market. Will there be 532 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: space for equal weighted crypto? Absolutely? Will there be space 533 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: for actively managed crypto funds absolutely? Will there be space 534 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: for momentum crypto funds? Absolutely? And I'm not giving away 535 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: the store. Everyone is thinking about this. These trends are obvious, 536 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: and I think there'll be a lot of products out there. 537 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: So do you ever think about if if all this 538 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: were to go sideways? Yeah, what does that do to 539 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: the et F landscape? If if it were approved? If 540 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: what do you mean by go sideways? Unforeseen events and 541 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: investor confidence wins? Uh So, So I think that's an 542 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,479 Speaker 1: extraordinarily unlikely scenario if it's approved. Rent, If it's approved 543 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: that the two black swan potential negatives that are out 544 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: there that we think about a little bit are regulatory 545 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: bands of owning particular crypto assets. Right, so, there is 546 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: a history. It was once made illegal to own gold 547 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: in the US many many years ago. You could imagine 548 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: that scenario. In that case, the fund will just divest 549 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: of that particular crypto asset. There will be no harm 550 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: to investors. UM. The other possible thing people talk about 551 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: is a hacking of something like the bitcoin network. UM. 552 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: I would say that it's been out there for ten years. 553 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: It's the most obvious honeypot for hackers in the world 554 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: with hundreds of billions of dollars in value, uh and 555 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: and and bearer instruments. It hasn't been hacked, so we 556 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: feel confident that it will stay that way. But obviously 557 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: that would be a negative for the market. UM, let's 558 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: talk quickly about et s. You've done a couple pieces 559 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: of work that I have just found great. The world's 560 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: Cheapest portfolio. You you came up with this. Uh, this 561 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: is where you take the cheapest TTF and every asset 562 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: class like a legit portfolio, and you give the the 563 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: asset weighted fee. Right now, I think it's six basis 564 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: points five, it's down to five. Uh, it kind of 565 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: goes down about a basis point Yere are we headed 566 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: towards a free portfolio in a couple of years or 567 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: is it? Is it going to top out at four 568 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: or five? I think it will top out at a 569 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: couple of basis points because I don't think people trust 570 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: free in asset management. I think people if you're giving 571 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: them free asset management, they wonder how you're taking Yeah, 572 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: exactly like like the robin Hood exchange. People know that 573 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: there's some way that they are making money. People would 574 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: rather be stabbed in the chest than stabbed in the back. UM, 575 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: and that's awesome. So and we discussed this a lot. 576 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: Right now, Passive is about thirty of fund assets, which 577 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: means it's six percent ownership of the stock market. So 578 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: thirty Where will it be in ten years? I think 579 00:29:54,760 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: it'll be fund assets and whatever the stock market. Absolutely, UM, 580 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: Vanguard and black Rock are a duopoly. They're they're not 581 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: taking in almost all the money out of seven asset managers. 582 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: Will this continue or do you think, uh, there will 583 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: be some kind of consolidation or something that like what 584 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: could stop them? I think what could stop them is 585 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: networks that have distribution enforcing that distribution like Charles Schwab 586 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: raising the price of other asset managers to to to 587 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: access ETFs on their platform and keeping more assets for themselves. 588 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: So I think all assets will default or most assets 589 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: will default to extremely low cost beta vehicles as the 590 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: core of their portfolio. But they might be captive within 591 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: distribution networks. Morgan Stanley might launch its own products instead 592 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: of outsourcing them to others. That's the only possible way 593 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: that that trend, that that trend could could be reversed 594 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: or at least slowed. Bogol told us in our interview 595 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: that what's he's running in his new book is that 596 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: there's going to be mass mutualization of the big financial companies. 597 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:57,959 Speaker 1: In other words, they're all going to have to convert 598 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: to Vanguard's mutual ownership structre or UH consolidating and lowering 599 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: fees will not be enough. It's too late. What do 600 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: you say to that. I love that vision. Um, I 601 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: don't know. That's an interesting question. Look, I think Black 602 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: Rock has shown you can be very profitable even with 603 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: an extraordinary amount of low cost assets. I think you're 604 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: gonna see more people follow the Black right Rock paradigm 605 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: of Barbell strategies with an extremely low cost core that 606 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: they use them essentially as a marketing expense to attract investors, 607 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: and then some high cost UH special sauce that they 608 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: throw on top. When does Crypto make it into the 609 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: world's cheapest portfolio, It's going to raise the price a 610 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: little bit. Look, uh, once once we once we launch 611 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: an e t F. Look, the thing about crypto is, 612 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: even as much as I love it and as much 613 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: as I think it's important and additive to her portfolio. 614 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: It should be uh, you know, one to three of 615 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: your portfolio, no more, and you should diligently rebalance it 616 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: if it ever exceeds that target band. So will it 617 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: come into the world's cheapest portfolio? Absolutely once a diversified 618 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: crypto product is launched, but the allocation will be appropriate 619 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: for investors, which is to say, about one whatever E 620 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: t F gets approved in the crypto space, what do 621 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: you think the first day inflow will be. That's a 622 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: good question. Let me add on to that while you think, 623 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: which is that the record to the fastest to a 624 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: billion is g l D took three days. Uh, b 625 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: b JP just came in second in about a month, 626 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: and then bond is third two and a half months. 627 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: So that's just to tell you how hard it is 628 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: to get to a billion takes a long time. Would 629 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: crypto what a what a physically backed or coin based 630 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: back crypto et F be able to get to a 631 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: billion in less than three days? I don't think so. 632 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think uh, there is significant 633 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: pent up demand for regulated exchange traded crypto exposure, but 634 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: I think most of the money is still in the 635 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: learning phase about crypto. The advisors, family offices and institutions 636 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: were talking to right now are either in the dip 637 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: their toe phase or they are still in the learning 638 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: an education phase. So depending on how long it takes, 639 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: how much pent up demand there is, that'll answer that question. 640 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: But if it were soon or right now, I think 641 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: people are still investigating and learning more than they're all 642 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: the way in. I want I want to do a 643 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: quick speed run. Um, how many people are in your 644 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: fun how many uh six plus LPs? And how much 645 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: money in dollars was not in dollars? We've had over 646 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: forty million dollars in influence. Do you get paid in crypto? No? 647 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: Why not? You have too much basis risk versus your 648 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: daily expenditures. How many people do you employ now? We 649 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: have fifteen people on our team and we're hiring a 650 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: few more. How do you talk to your kids about 651 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: what you do? My kids love three kids, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, 652 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: so they how did you describe this when you left 653 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: et F and went crypto? They were very suspected first, 654 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: but they have come to realize that I'm now the 655 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: cool dad in the family, a cryptocurrency asset manager. My 656 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: my daughter Magnolia talks about digital money. That's what she gets. 657 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: And they fully like the idea of digital money. It 658 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: seems native to them and obvious. And you're one of 659 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: I counted six people this year alone. That's that's gone 660 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 1: from the e t F world to the crypto world. 661 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: What do you make of this and are there similarities 662 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: that would attract somebody? Absolutely, there are two huge similarities 663 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: that are really important to understand. One disruptive to the 664 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: status quo and the financial ecosystem. E t f s 665 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: were that, and they have disrupted mutual funds and other 666 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: parts of asset management. Crypto is that too broad swas 667 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: of the ecosystem? And Two, at their core, a lot 668 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: of what they're about is disintermediation. The reason e t 669 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: f are low cost was they disintermediate a lot of 670 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: distribution cost. That's the primary advantage of e t f s. 671 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: They cut out a lot of junk. Part of what 672 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: crypto does is it disintermediates huge parts of the financial 673 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: ecosystem that our rents seeking and just distracting money from 674 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: the population. Okay, So closing question, I want to ask 675 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: on Eric's behalf. He goes to some conferences sometimes and 676 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: you guys, do the et F smackdowns. Eric doesn't win. Yeah, 677 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: he actually doesn't even come in first or second. Um, 678 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: you've you've seen, uh, you've won, I've heard I have one. 679 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: Eric doesn't mean you win. I have one on Eric's behalf. 680 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: How can Eric improve his game? Yeah, so the first 681 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: is got to be fund selection, Eric, fund selection. You 682 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: went with the marijuana e t F. You get you 683 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: get attracted by these that seems like it could have. 684 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: You get attracted by these sexy, exciting, shiny objects. Shiny 685 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: objects and not things that can fundamentally improve people's portfolio 686 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: in the way. Let's say a crypto a t F 687 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: you just got smacked down. Let me smack him down. 688 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,439 Speaker 1: In January. The one you won with was by, which 689 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: is a sort of private equity fund that just looks 690 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: for public stocks that look private equity issue. I mean, 691 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: come on basis points, this drove Todd rosen Booth crazy 692 00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: that you won with this. That's why I think it's 693 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: more show to tell that Eric has still been out 694 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: of shape over this. You still seem a little He 695 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: did have a cheering section. I'll tell you what, Eric. 696 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: Before next inside E t S, we'll do a two 697 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: day offsite teach you on how to pitch these e 698 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:15,879 Speaker 1: t f s in front of a large You're gonna 699 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: be by Mr Miyagi. I will be, I will be. Okay, 700 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: I'm here, all right, it's a deal. Finally, can't wait 701 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 1: to see you try and do a crane kick. Alright, 702 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: Matt Hogan, thanks so much for joining us in Trillians, 703 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Thanks for listening to Trillions Until 704 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, 705 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, and anywhere else you want 706 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: to listen to fas we'd love to hear from you. 707 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: We're on Twitter, I'm at Jewel Webber Show, He's at 708 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,959 Speaker 1: Eric Caltunist, and you can find Matt Hogan at Matt 709 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,760 Speaker 1: Underscore Hogan with a You or at bit wise Invest. 710 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: Trillions is produced by Magnus Hendrickson for Jessica Levi is 711 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: the head of Bloomberg Pockets. Bye.