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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. And here's why. This is one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite days of the year. Okay, because it's

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Speaker 1: my twins' birthday.

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Speaker 2: Oh sure, Okay, isn't It's sweet?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love my kids so much, and I

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Speaker 1: love it that I'm in December. There in December. They're Sagittarius,

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Speaker 1: I'm Capricorn. I love having a winter birthday with them.

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Speaker 1: It's so sweet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, you've got a lot of things going on

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Speaker 2: in December. Then with the holidays, it kind of starts.

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Speaker 1: With Halloween with me, we go Halloween. It gets hectic

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Speaker 1: and then you know, because very weeks later ish you

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Speaker 1: have Thanksgiving and then the girl's birthday, and then we

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Speaker 1: have you know, Christmas and my birthdays right after that

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Speaker 1: in New Year's and so it's wild, it's crazy, but

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Speaker 1: they love it. Yeah, they like having a birthday together.

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Speaker 1: Of course you don't have a choice when you're a twin,

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Speaker 1: but they like having the birthday together. Kid. So tell

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Speaker 1: me first how your kids. I know you have two

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Speaker 1: older ones, two younger ones. How did they like to

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Speaker 1: celebrate birthdays any special way? They parties the whole way through.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, I would say the younger kids ended

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Speaker 2: up having more of a group of friends that they

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Speaker 2: would have over like the special friends. My older kids

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Speaker 2: not so much, you know, they would just have one

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Speaker 2: or two friends, but not as big of a group

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Speaker 2: as the younger kids.

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Speaker 1: Well, they used to do that. They have similar friend groups,

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Speaker 1: and so they would have sometimes like a big party,

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Speaker 1: you know, so they would do that sometimes. Now we

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Speaker 1: sort of just do family stuff and then one will

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Speaker 1: go with the one best friend and the other we'll

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Speaker 1: go with the other best friend. But one of my

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Speaker 1: girls started doing something interesting. Last year. She asked if

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Speaker 1: she could go to her favorite restaurant, which is the steakhouse.

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Speaker 1: She's really big on seafood and steak and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I said, okay, do you want me to take you?

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Speaker 1: And she said no. And I said do you want

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Speaker 1: to go with like your best friend? And she said no?

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Speaker 1: And I said who you going with? And she wants

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Speaker 1: to go by herself. And so I almost felt like

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Speaker 1: last year I had to call the restaurant and say,

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Speaker 1: I've got this kid. She's going to have her credit card.

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Speaker 1: Just let her do what she wants to do. It's authorized.

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Speaker 1: And she wants to do that again this year. So

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Speaker 1: she's she goes and she has what she wants to have,

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Speaker 1: and she'll get like this little molten you know, chocolate

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Speaker 1: cake for free, and then she'll come home and we'll

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Speaker 1: do a little family celebration. But that's what she wants

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Speaker 1: to listen to her music and eat an expensive.

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Speaker 2: Steak restaurant kind of adult.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she likes space. She's a kid that needs space,

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Speaker 1: and so she really I don't know, that's just the

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Speaker 1: ideal way that she would do it. Is that what

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Speaker 1: you what would you do for your birthday.

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Speaker 2: Ideally, I'm probably very similar to her. I really don't

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Speaker 2: acknowledge my birthday. Yeah either, you know, after you have

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Speaker 2: so many of them, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So many Paul holes.

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Speaker 2: It's a reminder that's, you know, there's less life left

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Speaker 2: than what has been lived.

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Speaker 1: So I told you what my mom says. She's she

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Speaker 1: just turned eighty two, and she said, but I am

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Speaker 1: gonna shout it from the rooftops every year because how

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Speaker 1: many people don't make it to eighty two. So I'm trying.

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Speaker 1: I am trying to adopt that. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: very positive attitude, unlike you're every year I'm closer to death.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe I need to change my mindset a little bit.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean I understand that we also in my

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Speaker 1: family like to tell really good stories, and this is

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Speaker 1: not a story I would tell my kids. That one

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Speaker 1: I'm getting ready to tell you. But it fits into

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Speaker 1: our winter theme and it's going to be really really interesting.

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Speaker 1: It's a Cold War mystery. I think we had some

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Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff, but not specifically about the Cold War. And

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Speaker 1: this is a really big story. So it's a two

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Speaker 1: parter and I for sure need your help because there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of snow avalanche talk like what is happening

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Speaker 1: in this scene? And I know nothing about the mountains,

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Speaker 1: so I think you're gonna have some good insight.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, well I'll do my best.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene. There are so many photos

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Speaker 1: that go along with this that I had to send

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Speaker 1: you several different packets. So I'll call for the Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go to the diagram of this and that for

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Speaker 1: you to be able to look and you can just condense,

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Speaker 1: you know, what you're looking at, what's the basic summary.

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Speaker 1: But I'm happily in an area nineteen fifty nine where

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of photos available. So I think

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Speaker 1: that'll please you. I know it always does. You try

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Speaker 1: to pretend, you try to play it off and go,

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Speaker 1: oh no, I love these eighteen hundreds and seventeen hundred stories,

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Speaker 1: but secretly you would like more stories. I bet with photos.

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Speaker 2: I'm always more comfortable with photos. But you know, we

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Speaker 2: make it work.

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Speaker 1: Ye, all right, here we go. So this is set

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Speaker 1: in Russia, Siberia, so please, please please everybody, just you know,

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Speaker 1: look at this with some grace. When I try to

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Speaker 1: go through some of these Russian names, I'll do the

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Speaker 1: best I can, so it might take a hot second

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Speaker 1: for me to make sure I'm getting the pronouncer and

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Speaker 1: YouTube Paul, make sure I'm getting the pronouncer right. We

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Speaker 1: are in the mountains. We start in the mountains and

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Speaker 1: we into the mountains on this one, so we're above

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Speaker 1: the tree line on height ten seventy nine in the

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Speaker 1: ural mountains. And this is an area that's barren and

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Speaker 1: rounded and the range runs north to south, which is

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Speaker 1: the marking the border of Siberia and dividing Europe from Asia. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and this is a place that people like to explore.

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Speaker 1: And this is nineteen fifty nine, so the atmosphere already.

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Speaker 1: I know you're going to want to talk about trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out mysteries and murders in outdoor environments, and

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Speaker 1: snow must be one of the biggest challenge. Which is

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Speaker 1: worse do you think a certain circumstances Is it rain

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Speaker 1: or is it snow or is it both?

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Speaker 2: Ye? You know, to be frank, I've never processed a

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Speaker 2: crime scene in the snow. Coming out of the Bay Area, California.

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Speaker 2: It's right. I've definitely reviewed crime scenes you know that occurred,

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Speaker 2: you know where where it had snowed and there, you

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Speaker 2: know what I was fascinated when I was starting to see,

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Speaker 2: you know, crime scene images as you see so much

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Speaker 2: more because let's just say shoe impressions. You can start

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Speaker 2: to see where the offenders has walked, you know, and

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Speaker 2: kind of there's more information to reconstruct what happened if

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Speaker 2: it's you know, still somewhat pristine. If you will, rain sucks.

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Speaker 2: I will tell you that processing a crime scene in

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Speaker 2: the rain, you're losing evidence as time goes on. You

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Speaker 2: can't really take notes. The photos flash bounces off the

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Speaker 2: rain drops, so your photos turn out looking like crap.

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Speaker 2: So I would say, if it's a good snow it's

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Speaker 2: still cold enough to where the snow is solid, that's

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Speaker 2: probably better than that having to process a crime scene

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Speaker 2: in the rain.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is cold, cold snow, so maybe that's good

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Speaker 1: news for us. It's February twenty sixth, nineteen fifty nine,

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Speaker 1: and the temperatures have been hovering around zero degrees fahrenheit

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Speaker 1: during the day and then at night. I think it's funny. Allison,

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Speaker 1: who's our crack researcher here, she says, dip dip as

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Speaker 1: low as negative thirty degrees okay at night? What would

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Speaker 1: be the coldest that Colorado and the mountains would get.

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Speaker 2: Do you think you started this out by saying that

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Speaker 2: this is above the tree line, So that tells me

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Speaker 2: that we're at a pretty serious elevation. I'm guessing, you know,

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Speaker 2: roughly around ten thousand feet, and when you get out

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Speaker 2: into the Rockies in the front range, you start to

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Speaker 2: see the tree line once you get to roughly that

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Speaker 2: elevation and it gets cold. You know, I have Pike's

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Speaker 2: Peak in my rear yard almost at fourteen thousand feet,

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Speaker 2: and it's so much colder up at that elevation than

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Speaker 2: at where I live, which is sixty five hundred feet.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I'm sure there's places, you know, at

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Speaker 2: higher elevations in the Rockies that are going to match

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Speaker 2: this location.

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Speaker 1: Out here in Siberia, well, the snow is five feet deep.

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Speaker 1: Oh and earlier in the month, listen to this. Earlier

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Speaker 1: in the month, the winds had whipped through the pass

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Speaker 1: at sixty five miles per hour.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So we have a search party who is going

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Speaker 1: into this environment, and it's a student along with some

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Speaker 1: teacher volunteers from a technical university and they are searching

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Speaker 1: for nine people associated with the university who are all

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Speaker 1: professional explorer hikers and who have been in this area before.

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Speaker 1: So it is seven men and two women, and they're

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Speaker 1: all incredibly experienced, I mean, all kinds of certifications, whatever

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Speaker 1: they needed to do. They've done really really difficult things

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Speaker 1: in the past. But they haven't heard from them, and

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Speaker 1: so there's a search party that goes out. What will

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Speaker 1: be important later on is part of the search party

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Speaker 1: is a group of indigenous people called the Mansies. So

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Speaker 1: you know they're helping out because they know the area also,

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Speaker 1: and they had set out six days earlier than what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about. So on February twentieth, the search party

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Speaker 1: left and they have been tracing the ski tracks that

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Speaker 1: they believe belong to this little expedition as what I'll

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Speaker 1: call them, and the tracks brought them to this gentle

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Speaker 1: thirty degree slope. They immediately come to the first alarming

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Speaker 1: thing that they find. And I will sort of disclose

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Speaker 1: this to say why we are doing this story is

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Speaker 1: that we have these missing hikers. They will be found.

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Speaker 1: The question is what happened? And it has been this

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Speaker 1: incredible mystery ever since nineteen fifty nine. So here's the

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Speaker 1: first clue in what is to me one of the

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Speaker 1: more concerning clues. Okay, So they're at this gentle thirty

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Speaker 1: degree slope. The search team looks down in a shallow

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Speaker 1: dugout that is meant to shelter hikers from the wind,

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Speaker 1: and they find a tent that they believe belongs to

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Speaker 1: the expedition team. And it is slashed and partially collapsed. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and there are no hikers inside. Let me get through

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Speaker 1: this little bit and then we're gonna look at the

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Speaker 1: tent and kind of you can tell me what you think.

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Speaker 1: So I'll have diagrams of the tint and what the

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Speaker 1: slashes look like, and then I'll have photos of the

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Speaker 1: tent and what those are. So there are no hikers.

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Speaker 1: There's one tent pole that sticks above the snow. This

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Speaker 1: tent was constructed by stitching two canvases together, and the

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Speaker 1: tent is six feet by thirteen feet seems pretty big.

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Speaker 1: It's designed to hang on trees, but it could also

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Speaker 1: be sort of hitched up on a pair of skis

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Speaker 1: in an emergency, several skis, and there is a working

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Speaker 1: flashlight that's balanced on the top edge of the tent.

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Speaker 1: There's a pair of skis that's popped up in the snow. Nearby.

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Speaker 1: There are eight other pairs of skis that are well

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Speaker 1: organized under the tent, and there's an ice axe and

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Speaker 1: a jacket that's nearby. And it looks like all nine

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Speaker 1: people in the expedition you know, were there at one point.

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Speaker 1: So there's nine pairs of skis there for the nine hikers.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got the slashes and the tent, and

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Speaker 1: I could tell you more details about what's actually inside

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Speaker 1: the tent.

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Speaker 2: At least with what you've told me, it sounds like

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Speaker 2: this expedition team, who are very experienced with the conditions,

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Speaker 2: they all made it to this location safely, and they

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Speaker 2: were able to set up a tent, all the skis

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Speaker 2: are organized. They recognize that this dugout was probably the

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Speaker 2: best shelter, you know. Maybe they saw inclement weather coming in,

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Speaker 2: or this was just going to be how far that

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Speaker 2: they were going to be going on that particular day.

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Speaker 2: So they get to this location and everything is normal,

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Speaker 2: and then something happens that causes this you know, them

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Speaker 2: to you know again, do they leave voluntarily, you know,

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Speaker 2: or does something else happen, you know, And then of

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Speaker 2: course this the you know, the damage to the tent

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Speaker 2: where I'm you know, my immediate thought is, okay, well

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Speaker 2: you mentioned the wind, you know, ripping through at sixty

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Speaker 2: five miles an hour previously. You know, do you have

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Speaker 2: damage to the tent as a result of weather. Do

241
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Speaker 2: you have damage to the tent as a result of

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Speaker 2: you know, large animal? You know, are there bears in

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Speaker 2: this location? And then of course do we have maybe

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Speaker 2: another group that had bad intent that cross paths with

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Speaker 2: this expeditionary team. So I'm kind of curious to see

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Speaker 2: how this unfolds.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yes, I am too, because this, like I said,

248
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Speaker 1: is a big, big mystery. Okay, let me tell you.

249
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Speaker 1: This is a lot of details, so just let me

250
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Speaker 1: plow through all the details of what's actually inside what

251
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 1: sounds like as a giant tent. So inside, hiking gear

252
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Speaker 1: is neatly arranged. To the left of the entrance, there

253
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 1: are seven pairs of felt boots and six pairs of

254
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Speaker 1: ski boots. To the right, there are cooking provisions, two

255
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:02,360
Speaker 1: large axes, one small in a leather case, and three

256
00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,520
Speaker 1: finished knives, all purpose belt knives with a curved cutting edge,

257
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,760
Speaker 1: and one is actually still in the sheath. There are

258
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:15,080
Speaker 1: two buckets, two cooking pots, a suspended stove, bags of biscuits,

259
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 1: pork loin. There's alcohol, they think it's probably vodka. There's

260
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,440
Speaker 1: hiking gear and clothes in the center of the tent,

261
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 1: two more pairs of ski boots and nine backpacks containing

262
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,200
Speaker 1: nine parkas, eight quilted jackets, one fur coat. And then

263
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,320
Speaker 1: there's I mean, this is a lot of stuff. I

264
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 1: had no idea I should have known. Four pairs of

265
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Speaker 1: shell pants. I mean, just a lot of clothing in there.

266
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Speaker 1: There's three compasses, one pocket watch, and several blankets, and

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00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,800
Speaker 1: there's just food and provisions, and there's a first aid

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00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 1: kit in there. And it feels like they were sort

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Speaker 1: of caught in the moment. You know, it's not a

270
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,040
Speaker 1: chaotic scene. It's the tent and the missing hikers that

271
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Speaker 1: are problematic. I have information about where they think they

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Speaker 1: might have gone, because there are what you and I

273
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Speaker 1: had talked about earlier. There are our footprints leaving, shoe

274
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Speaker 1: prints leaving the tent, and there's also the damage to

275
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Speaker 1: the tent. Do you have a preference on what we

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Speaker 1: talk about first?

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Speaker 2: The damage to the tent is what I'm kind of

278
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Speaker 2: keying in on. I mean everything inside this tent. I

279
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:18,520
Speaker 2: mean this expeditionary team. They were well prepared and this tent.

280
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Speaker 2: It's something that took a while to set up and

281
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Speaker 2: get all of those materials inside of that tent in

282
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,760
Speaker 2: an organized fashion. So it seems like that they just

283
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 2: decided this is where we're going to be staying for

284
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Speaker 2: a bit, you know, So what caused them to leave

285
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Speaker 2: without this material? Yeah, because a lot of this material.

286
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Speaker 2: You know that you've got the boots and the coats

287
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 2: and everything else. This is all survival gear that you're

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00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,600
Speaker 2: going to need at this elevation, at these temperatures, and

289
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 2: they're not going to voluntarily just leave that stuff behind.

290
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Speaker 1: Even more concerning to me was there is It's almost

291
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,560
Speaker 1: like I had mentioned before, a frozen moment in time,

292
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,680
Speaker 1: because they have this stuff called salow, which is a

293
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,200
Speaker 1: high calorie white pork fat and it's a Slavic delicacy.

294
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Speaker 1: It is sliced and it's ready to eat, and it's

295
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 1: frozen on the table, so it hasn't been covered. It's

296
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Speaker 1: almost like somebody had just cut it and was getting

297
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,800
Speaker 1: ready to eat it, and there's a jug of cocoa

298
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 1: that had been mixed with water, and that jug is

299
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,080
Speaker 1: iced over at this point, and there is a stack

300
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 1: of wood right next to the fire like kind of

301
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,120
Speaker 1: put into the stove. A stack of wood right next

302
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,280
Speaker 1: to the stove, as if somebody was just getting ready

303
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 1: to load it in. And they have a journal and

304
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,560
Speaker 1: they have cameras and individual diaries that are right there.

305
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 1: And then they only had about ten bucks, seven hundred

306
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,520
Speaker 1: and ten roubles in there, and so it's almost like

307
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Speaker 1: something happened where they were living in it and they

308
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Speaker 1: immediately left.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's odd.

310
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Speaker 1: I getting ready to say that a lot.

311
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. Okay, what's the size of this team again?

312
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Speaker 1: How many they're pro hikers who are also students. There's

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Speaker 1: nine of them, nine and I have photos of them

314
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Speaker 1: and them in the snow, in the actual snow, you know,

315
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,439
Speaker 1: chronicling this trip. They found their cameras and so you

316
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,399
Speaker 1: can see what the snow looks like. And I also

317
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,919
Speaker 1: have the boot impressions in the snow. Okay, so you

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Speaker 1: tell me where you want to go now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's take a look at that scene, which.

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Speaker 1: One Okay, if we look at what I called hikers

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Speaker 1: in fun snow. That's what the snow looks like. But

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Speaker 1: I don't think I have the photos of the tent.

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Speaker 1: These are like scene photos that they took themselves. Ok

324
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,360
Speaker 1: These are not evidence photos. So if you open it,

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Speaker 1: you'll see the nine members of the team and then

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Speaker 1: you'll kind of just see their fun They were documenting

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Speaker 1: their lives on this trip.

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Speaker 2: Now they look young.

329
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Speaker 1: They are students at this technical school, Okay, and I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you a little bit more about them once we

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Speaker 1: get there, since I know we need some victimology and stuff.

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Speaker 2: You know. The first photo that I'm seeing, once I

333
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,919
Speaker 2: get past the portraits of the team, it looks like

334
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 2: the team is in the back of a you know,

335
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 2: some sort of utility truck, like not quite a pickup truck,

336
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,679
Speaker 2: and has the wooden railing that they're leaning against. But

337
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,480
Speaker 2: they're all dressed appropriately. You know, they've got heavy jackets

338
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:35,760
Speaker 2: with hoods and heavy mittens on, you know, the kind

339
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,919
Speaker 2: of the fingerless gloves, which are you know, really good

340
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 2: for you know, the the frigid temperatures because you're able

341
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 2: to keep more warmth inside those mittens. And then it

342
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 2: appears in the front that there is some some sort

343
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,719
Speaker 2: of carrying pack you know, that's on on the on

344
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,439
Speaker 2: the floor, so I'm sure that contains a lot of

345
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 2: the supplies. And then the next foat shows three of

346
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 2: them up against these struct the structure that's constructed out

347
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,399
Speaker 2: of a tree trunk and then some horizontal branches. And

348
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,440
Speaker 2: so there's three of these tree trunks and each tree

349
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:20,640
Speaker 2: trunk has three horizontal branches on you know, nailed to them,

350
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 2: and it appears like you know, some of the skis

351
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 2: are being leaned up against these structures. I haven't seen

352
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 2: this type of structure before.

353
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,399
Speaker 1: They're using it to clean the skis off. That's the

354
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: purpose of that structure is so they can kind of

355
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 1: sit and clean everything on, putting their boots too.

356
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Speaker 2: I'm sure, yeah, that makes sense. You know, it's clever.

357
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 2: And there's more that are you know, further in the backdrop.

358
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Speaker 2: But I'm also taking a look at where they're doing this.

359
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:50,199
Speaker 2: They're still below the tree lined. You have some you know,

360
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:56,200
Speaker 2: whether they're aspens you know that are tall but sparse.

361
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 2: It's not like a super wooded area where they're located.

362
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 2: And then scrolling down the next photo is a photo

363
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 2: of them where they're now hiking. They got their snow

364
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,119
Speaker 2: shoes or their skis on, with their ski poles, very

365
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 2: heavily garbed up with weather weather clothing, you know, the

366
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,239
Speaker 2: heavy heavy jackets and the pant like the pants, and

367
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,520
Speaker 2: it appears that at the time of this photo, the

368
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 2: snow is blowing, you know, so you know they've got

369
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 2: some weather that they are having to hike through. And

370
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 2: then the next photo is showing a tent with two

371
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 2: of the hikers kind of around this tent, and I

372
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 2: can see the ski poles that have been stuck in

373
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 2: the snow. They've rigged up a way to hold this

374
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 2: tent up. Now, this tent is only even though you

375
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,679
Speaker 2: mentioned the tent was sixteen by thirteen feet, it's only

376
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 2: maybe three three feet tall.

377
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 1: And that might be a different tint because they had

378
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 1: several tints from what I what I've read, and I

379
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,199
Speaker 1: actually did find photos of the collapsed tents, so you

380
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 1: can have a better idea of that too.

381
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 2: Okay, so maybe they had multiple tents available to them

382
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 2: versus all of them going into the one one structure, yep,

383
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 2: you know. And then the last photo, you know, they're

384
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,719
Speaker 2: just cross cross country skiing. That's what it looks like,

385
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 2: you know, they're following in each other's tracks, probably taking

386
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 2: turns as to who's in the lead, because that's going

387
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 2: to be the most challenging part of this. And it

388
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: looks beautiful. You know, You've got pristine snow, you've got

389
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 2: mountains in the backdrop with the trees, and maybe there's

390
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 2: a frozen lake up ahead, you know, so you know

391
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,640
Speaker 2: this is it's nature. They're out there, but it does

392
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: look like it's fairly remote. I don't see any you know,

393
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 2: human made structures in this photograph at all.

394
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: No, I'm gonna show you some photographs. I'm actually gonna

395
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 1: send them to your real quick, Paul.

396
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so I'm initially looking at an overall photograph.

397
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 2: This is what we would how we would call this

398
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 2: this type of photo from a crime scene where it's

399
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 2: capturing basically the entire scene. In the middle, there's first

400
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,640
Speaker 2: it's just snow all around where this collapsed tent is at.

401
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 2: There's no other structures. It appears that there there is

402
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 2: a peak of a mountain in the backdrop, and the

403
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 2: tent itself really just looks like you know, dark fabric

404
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: on top of the snow. And then this is where

405
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 2: the skis have been stuck vertically in the snow around

406
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 2: where this tent is, So those skis, I'm assuming possibly

407
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 2: helped hold up the tent in some capacity.

408
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they don't have trees around, so I think

409
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: they either had to use skis or trees. And then

410
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: they have I think they had some tent poles with them.

411
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 1: I'll have to look again though.

412
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: And then the other photo, which is a close up

413
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 2: of this collapsed tent, So this photo is showing the

414
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 2: tent that is not even sure how I'm going to

415
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 2: describe this, you know, basically the tents collapsed down there

416
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 2: appears to be a fair amount of heavy snow deposit

417
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: on the top surface, covering visibility on the top of

418
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 2: this tent. In the foreground, the closest to the person

419
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 2: taking the photograph, you can see where there's either you know,

420
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 2: what do you call them a ski you know what

421
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 2: you use as you're skiing, but you a ski pole,

422
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: So you know, it appears that part of the fabric

423
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 2: is is covering something like a ski pole, you know

424
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 2: where maybe that was the entrance into the tent, and

425
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 2: there's some cordage that's probably secure bring that part of

426
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: the tent to the ski pole or whatever it is

427
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 2: that's holding it up towards the rear. You know, there's

428
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: there's several skis that are vertical, you know, that probably

429
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: were there to help hold this tent up at some point.

430
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: And I'm also seeing some ski poles in the foreground

431
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 2: that appear to be mostly buried. The snow is heavily disturbed,

432
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 2: and this is where is this the condition when the

433
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 2: you know, the the search team, you know, first arrives,

434
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 2: or has there been a lot of disturbance to the

435
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: scene before this photograph is taken. So right now just

436
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: we don't I don't know how to interpret what I'm seeing,

437
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: but you know, it's heavy deposits of snow, chunks of

438
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: snow on top of this tent. And I'm surprised at that.

439
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 2: I thought, okay, with you know, over time, with weather blowing,

440
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 2: you'd start to see, you know, the snow just naturally

441
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: deposit on top of the tent. Even in this collapse state,

442
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 2: this almost looks like there's been chunks of no thrown

443
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: on top of the tent, maybe in an effort to

444
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 2: hide it, like somebody is trying to bury it but

445
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 2: doesn't quite get it completely. Buried well.

446
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: And to give you a little bit more context, So

447
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: they're using the diaries. The search teams are using the

448
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: diaries and later on investigators to figure out how far

449
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: people got. So remember they have journals and diaries that

450
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: they found in the tent. And it's confirmed that on

451
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 1: January thirty first, they had reached this area. They dug

452
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: a snowpit, unloaded their heaviest gear in it, and the

453
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: next day they planned so February first, they planned to

454
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: ski toward the mountain Pass. But that's it. That's the

455
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: last entry where the journals were found at that location.

456
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: They had been missing or whatever happens to them starting

457
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: February first, and it is now February twenty sixth. Yeah,

458
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: I could also explain the snow. How much is on there?

459
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: You know.

460
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: I just think the configuration of the snow looks wrong

461
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,959
Speaker 2: to me for just being done by weather, you know.

462
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 2: And those journals are absolutely key from you know, a

463
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: temporal standpoint, as you said, they made it. They said

464
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 2: they made it out there on January thirty first, they're

465
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: going to go ski on February first, and there's no

466
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: other entries into the journals after that. Ye, And you know,

467
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: of course i'd be wanting to take a look at

468
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: the journals. You know, each person probably has their own

469
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: frequency that they're putting entries in. So do some of

470
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 2: these journals have entries every day and that it just

471
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: stops or is it more sporadic to where you know,

472
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: maybe there's additional days where there is a normal activity

473
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: occurring at this location and they just never made another

474
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 2: entry just because they weren't doing it on a daily basis.

475
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the tent or do you want to

476
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 1: talk about them leaving? Which which do you prefer?

477
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 2: Well, since I just described the tent, let's get more

478
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: details about the tent.

479
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: Okay, So the tent, it looks like you can go

480
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: ahead and bring up your photos and while you're doing that,

481
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 1: I'll go through this. The tent and its contents, you know,

482
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: were eventually collected from the slope and rebuilt inside police

483
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: station in ural. This is where kind of the main

484
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: investigation will start. A seamstress mending police uniforms remarks the

485
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: tent slashes which have been made from the inside, and

486
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: an expert confirms these were slashes made from the inside.

487
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: So you know, there's different information about the tent and

488
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: how big the slashes were. They might have it on

489
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: the diargy. Do they have it on the diagrams?

490
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this first it's a sketch. However, it's a

491
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: sketch that's been made using a straight edge, so it's

492
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: very neat. And the configuration of this tent is like

493
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: an a frame. So theabric the way the tent was

494
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: designed in order to be put up would be, you know,

495
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: in essence, you have a long ridge line from front

496
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 2: to back with an entry that's shaped like a triangle

497
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: in the front where people can go in and out

498
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: of this tent, and then you would have to have

499
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 2: various mechanisms such as the skis ski poles to hold

500
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: up this tent from the inside, as well as potentially

501
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: you know, using twine at both ends to hold up

502
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: the ridge line. On the sloped face of this tent,

503
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: there is a drawing of what I'm assuming is the

504
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: damage to the fabric, and it's significant in terms of

505
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 2: the size of the damage. For example, there is a

506
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: red arrow labeled number one, which is pointing at sort

507
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: of a linear defect on this tent roof, and there's

508
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: a number thirty one with two arrows emanating out of

509
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: it that goes along the length of that defect. So

510
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: I'm interpreting that is thirty one units log. I don't

511
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: know if it's centimeters. I don't know if it's inches,

512
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 2: but it's thirty one log. And then directly above that

513
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: is more of a curve of linear defect with a

514
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: red number two red arrow pointing at it, and that

515
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: defect has eighty nine units marking it. And then you

516
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: have large areas of fabric just in the middle on

517
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: this roof side, which they're indicating with cross hatching. What

518
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to assume that there's missing fabric and there's

519
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: no real measurements cross how large this is, but it appears,

520
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: if this is relatively done to scale, appears to be

521
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: a significant amount of fabric that has been removed, but

522
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: not in a very regular fashion. There's a lot of

523
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: irregularities to some of the margins of this damage, and

524
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: there appears to be a very long tongue of fabric

525
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: in the middle of this that is still remaining. And

526
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: so it's almost as if you have two rectangular openings

527
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: and then a flap that was left behind. And then

528
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: there's the measurement roughly forty two inches or forty two

529
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: units wide for that fabric in the middle of this damage.

530
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: And then further down there appears to be a linear

531
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: defect that goes all the way from the top of

532
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: the tent down to where the tent would have been

533
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: secured using cordage to tense spikes in the snow, and

534
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: there appears to be some damage removed. So you know,

535
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: this is not you know, the amount of fabric that

536
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: has been in essence cut out from the roof of

537
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: this tent is significant. Why would somebody do that? That

538
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: the way that that's drawn, that's not done by an animal.

539
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: I don't see this occurring as a result of weather,

540
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: you know, So why is somebody doing this? And you

541
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: said that experts claimed it was done from the.

542
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: Inside inside, Yeah, does it look like it would have

543
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: been a knife would have had to have done it,

544
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: or some kind of cutting instrument would have to have

545
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: done it.

546
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: Well, at least you know, without seeing a photo, you know,

547
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: how straight the artist is drawing some of these defects

548
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: tends to just yes, you've got a sharp edge, you know,

549
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: knife scissors that is cutting parts of it, and then

550
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: possibly where it's irregular is where the fabric is bunched

551
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,959
Speaker 2: up as they're trying to cut through that fabric. So

552
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: in some ways you can see where somebody is just

553
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: real quickly doing these linear cuts and then now is

554
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: balling the fabric up and then cutting the swaths of

555
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: cloth or fabric out from the roof. You know, these

556
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: photos are showing the you know, more close up of

557
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: the damage to the tent fabric, so I can start

558
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: to take a look and see, yes, there's no question

559
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: that you're dealing with, you know, a sharp edged you know,

560
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: chances are it's a knife. You know. However, the way

561
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: that some of the fabric has you know, these little pieces,

562
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: there's there is an aspect of not only cutting, but

563
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: possibly just tearing maybe even where you know, you start,

564
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: you know, with the knife and then you just kind

565
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 2: of more rapidly pull the fabric apart and tear it apart.

566
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: You know, they've got some good close up photos with

567
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: with scale showing that, you know, some of the fabric

568
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: was cleanly cut in this this close up photo, but

569
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: some of it appears that it also was pulled apart

570
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: like it you know, they started it and then now

571
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: it's just getting it completely apart through a tearing action.

572
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: There is one photo showing that side of the tent,

573
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: you know, where there's appears to be a fair amount

574
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: of fabric missing, you know, and it dawns on me,

575
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: it's very possible that whoever did this was using this

576
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: fabric to bundle something up, you know, like a little

577
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: to make a carrying case, or you know, depending on

578
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: how much of that tent. I mean, it's possible it

579
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: was used as a you know, like a wrap a

580
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: body in, you know. So that seems to make sense

581
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: to me. It's not random whoever did this. They're just

582
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: not doing this for fun, you know. It's not like

583
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes you'll get some cases where you have

584
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: an offender that just wants to damage. It's like a

585
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: form of vandalism. I don't think that's what's going on here.

586
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: I think that there's maybe a functional aspect to why

587
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: the offender is if I want to, I'm not even

588
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: sure I can say a fender. But why, you know,

589
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 2: the person who is cutting the fabric, I think they

590
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: want to use the fabric for something.

591
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: Okay, So if we come out of the tent, where

592
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: we're looking next is do we have any boot prints.

593
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: We don't, we have footprints. They find a chain of

594
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: eight or nine sets of footprints leading from the tent

595
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: toward the tree line less than a mile away. So

596
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: the people who made those were either barefoot or wearing socks.

597
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: They said, one person wore a single ski boot. But

598
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: they're orderly, so there's not that sort of I don't know,

599
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: kicking up snow like they're running. They're orderly, and you

600
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: know they're kind of going maybe next to each other

601
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: or single file, I can't quite tell. But these footprints

602
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: disappear a quarter of a mile from the tent or so.

603
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: You think about where this is happening. You know, you're

604
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: talking zero degrees down to what was it negative thirty degrees.

605
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 2: They're in snow, the snow is five feet deep, and

606
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: these people are not voluntarily walking out of that tent

607
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: without their boots on. They're being forced and that basically

608
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 2: they were told move. And now how does that happen

609
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: to a team of nine. Well, now you've probably got

610
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 2: a group with guns saying you guys are are marching.

611
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: Now you think how fast frostbite would set in without

612
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: you know, the heavy boots on, without the proper clothing

613
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 2: this location. I'm curious, you know, where these footprints stop,

614
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: where their tracks like snowbobill tracks. Was there, you know,

615
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 2: some sort of vehicle, you know, any indication that there's

616
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: a vehicle at this location that could pick this team up,

617
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 2: whether the team is still alive or it's killed at

618
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: this location, or is there any bloodstains at this location,

619
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: et cetera. You know, but they just didn't disappear, you know,

620
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: unless you know, the investigators failed to dig into the

621
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: snow and there's frozen bodies at this location that just

622
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: got covered with snow over time.

623
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you, you know, moving forward, they

624
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: follow these footprints and then they lose them about a

625
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: quarter of a mile from the tent.

626
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: And do they do they lose them because just snow

627
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: covers them up.

628
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: It looks like it.

629
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 2: No, you know, but I think even though you know,

630
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 2: they may not have a full trail. You know, this

631
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: team was marched to a location and it's was that

632
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: location found where their body's recovered or again, you know,

633
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: where they transported somewhere else.

634
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: So the next day they resume the search. At about

635
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock, they discover the remains of a fire at

636
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: the base of a tall ceedar on that tree line's edge,

637
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 1: and it's about a little more than a mile, maybe

638
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: about a mile from the tent that have been slashed.

639
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: They say, based on the char of the wood, the

640
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: fire appears to have been burned for about ninety minutes.

641
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: The branches of the fir and birch trees within a

642
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: sixty five foot perimeter of the cedar have been cut,

643
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: and they think with a finished knife, which is the

644
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: knife I described for you, kind of a curved knife

645
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: that they would use. The cedars dry branches, which were

646
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: twelve to seventeen feet off the ground have also been

647
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 1: broken off. And let me just tell you it's at

648
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 1: the scene. So there's various garments, including a half burned

649
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: brown sock, a green checkered shirt with eight roubles in

650
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: the pocket, and a woman's handkerchief, and they're all strewn

651
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: around by the fire. And there are bodies there. Oh okay,

652
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: you know, we do know details about the trip, and

653
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: we know details about the school they went to and

654
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 1: who all these people are. Would you rather talk about

655
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: the trip when we get to kind of this first

656
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: set of bodies and go backwards and say this is

657
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: how the trip went, and do you want to hear

658
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: about these people as they come up or how do

659
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: you want to do it?

660
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, with the finding of the bodies,

661
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: you know that will give me better insight as to Okay,

662
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 2: what what was the offender's motive? If there is an offender,

663
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: and then we can kind of get back and maybe

664
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 2: start going into the victimology.

665
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: Okay, they find initially two bodies. The first person is

666
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: twenty one year old Uri da ro Shinko, but I'm

667
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: calling him Muri. And then there's a twenty three year

668
00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 1: old named Georgie Yuri Krevu Nished and he went by Creva.

669
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: So with Ury, he is lying face down with his

670
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: head turned to the left. And remember this is six

671
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: to ten feet from the fire what once was a fire.

672
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: His arms are bent at the elbows and his fingers

673
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: are clenched. His hair is very dirty and tangled with

674
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: moss and fur needles and burned near his right temple

675
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: in the occipital region. Under his body are three or

676
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: four cedar branches. And then I have information on what

677
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 1: he's wearing. And lucky for you, we don't have autopsy photos,

678
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: but we have very detailed autopsy diagrams of all of this.

679
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: So do you want to see the diagram?

680
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: First?

681
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: You want to hear about what he's wearing and some

682
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: more of his injuries.

683
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me what they can see at the crime scene.

684
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: Okay, he stripped to his undergarments. So he is wearing

685
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: a light green sleeveless cotton undershirt, a blue and red

686
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 1: checkered shirt, blue sat and briefs, and blue knitted long underwear.

687
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: The long underwear is missing a thigh panel. It's been

688
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: torn or possibly cut with a knife. On his left foot,

689
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: he wears three layers of socks, two light brown ones

690
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: knitted socks and then one white woolen sock. And on

691
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: his right foot he wears two layers of cotton and

692
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: wool socks. The outer socks on both feet are burned

693
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: to tatters. Last thing about ury. His ears, lips, and

694
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: nose are covered in blood. His upper lip is swollen.

695
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: There are multiple small abrasions and bruises that cover his

696
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: arms and legs. His fingertips and toes are dark purple

697
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: in color, and the toes on his left foot are burned.

698
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 1: So we can talk about creva or you can look

699
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 1: at the diagram of Uri and then we can go

700
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: on to Creva.

701
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: Let me look at the diagram of Uri. Here, the

702
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: hemorrhaging and swelling to his nose, his mouth, you know,

703
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: this all appears that he's being beat in the face.

704
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: He's he's taking blows, you know, possibly being punched. The

705
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: extensive abrasions to his arms, even his hands, you know,

706
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: around the knuckles. They notice a significant swelling, you know,

707
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: as if he possibly was, you know, striking something himself,

708
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,439
Speaker 2: maybe fighting back against whoever's beating him. You know. Part

709
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: of the the complexity of evaluating the injuries is you're

710
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: dealing with probably crusty snow. You've got the branches that

711
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 2: his body is on. You know, some of this could

712
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 2: be a result of movement against you know, this hard

713
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 2: snow or the branches. However, it appears that you know,

714
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: he's he's probably being beat. You know. The dark purple

715
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: tissue at the tips of his fingers and toes suggests

716
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 2: frostbite to me, which it wouldn't be surprising and it

717
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: would probably happen really quickly out there if he's been

718
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: marched a mile dressed like this out to this particular location. Yeah,

719
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: I think you're going to start to see frostbite setting

720
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 2: in the burned hair as well as you know, it

721
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: appears that there's some other singing or soot from the fire.

722
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: Was he located closer to the fire at some point,

723
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: you know, and then his body was moved? You know,

724
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 2: who knows what's going on there. So yeah, at this point,

725
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: we don't know if Yuri died just as a result

726
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: of exposure, or if you know, he did you know,

727
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: receive a fatal injury or multiple fatal injuries. But it

728
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 2: does appear that he isn't he is interacting. There's violence

729
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 2: being inflicted on Yuri, you know. So that's now okay

730
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 2: tells me that at least with Uri, and I'm going

731
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 2: to say with probably the rest of the team, this

732
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: isn't where they ended up, you know, taking too much

733
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: vodka and some sort of psychedelic and just you know,

734
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 2: with doubt and just you know, walked out into the elements.

735
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: Goes back to what I in my initial assessment, they

736
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: were forced out, and at least with Uri and Creva,

737
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: they were forced out this location of the campfire, whether

738
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: that campfire pre existed and they were marched there or

739
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: you know, the campfire was started once they got to

740
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 2: that location. Also, the way that campfire, you're talking about

741
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: dry branches being you know, taken off of the surrounding

742
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: trees tells me that you are dealing with somebody very

743
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 2: experienced out in nature and recognized where the dry wood

744
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: is versus maybe some of the other sources of fuel

745
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: are still too moist in order to be able to

746
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 2: start a fire. They had a means to start a fire,

747
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 2: you know, whether that be you know, you know, you're

748
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: talking nineteen fifty nine, so they could have had pretty

749
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: much any modern contraption to start a fire, or they're

750
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 2: skilled enough to be able to start a fire using

751
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: what's available, you know, with flint, et cetera. So in

752
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: some ways you're dealing with bushcraft or you know, survivalist

753
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 2: type of training.

754
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you just a tiny bit about

755
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: since Youurie's our first victim here, I'll tell you just

756
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: very briefly about the group. So, you know, this was

757
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: a sporting club, expedition club at a university that was

758
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: a technical university, to which I thought, okay, what does

759
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: that mean. They were all students or recent alumni in

760
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: and their majors were or their jobs were in economics,

761
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: nuclear physics, machine building, radio, and civil engineering. There was

762
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: one named Sasha who we haven't talked about yet, and

763
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 1: he was not part of that school. He came along.

764
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: This was an initially a ten person expedition, not a

765
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: nine person, but one person had to drop out because

766
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: of illness, so it turned into a nine person team. Here.

767
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: As I had said before, they're all experienced and they

768
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: were trained to become nuclear power and weapon and radio

769
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: and aerospace engineers. So that's where we start when we

770
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 1: talk about URI.

771
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what was the purpose of them going out

772
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: to this location?

773
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: They loved it. It wasn't a school thing. It was

774
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: they were part of a sporting club where they would

775
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: do stuff like this. I mean, I have a lot

776
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 1: of photos of them doing other expeditions, you know, I'm

777
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: sure this was. It was a sports club trekking expedition

778
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: from specifically that originated from this technical college. But not

779
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: everybody went there. Okay, so this was a fun trip

780
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: and stuff they've done before.

781
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they didn't have a mission going out there that.

782
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: They said, and not that we know of.

783
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 2: Right.

784
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: So we have another person who I mentioned to you,

785
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: and he was Uri Creva, and so we call him Creva.

786
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: And he is found close by to Uri. He's lying

787
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: face up. His right arm is above his head, his

788
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: left arm is bent so that his wrist lays across

789
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: his chest. His right leg is extended, his left leg

790
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: is bent at the knee, and just like you, he

791
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: stripped to his undergarments. He is wearing a worn white

792
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: cotton shirt, a red blue and black checkered shirt, blue

793
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: satin swimming trunks, and long underwear. These two have been

794
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 1: torn asunder. I mean they're torn around all this stuff.

795
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: The entire bottom half of the left leg is missing.

796
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: It's ragged edge is charred. His right foot is bare.

797
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: On his left foot, he wears a burned and tattered

798
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: brown sock. And then I have injuries for him and

799
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: of a diagram.

800
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, now, I think some of the missing fabric from

801
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: the victim's clothing that may have been used as kindling

802
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: to start the fire. Okay, I think the state of

803
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 2: Yuri and Kreva, you know what clothes they are wearing,

804
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: you know, it suggests, you know, going back to the

805
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 2: original tent location, that maybe they had undressed just for

806
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 2: normal you know, staying inside the tent when the offenders

807
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 2: you know, came across him, and now they're just being

808
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: forced out into the elements. It wouldn't surprise me though,

809
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 2: if the offenders forced the victims to undress as a further,

810
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: you know, means of control. You know, it's sort of like, Okay,

811
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 2: you're going out there, and you don't have the ability

812
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: to just run away because you will die, right So

813
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: there may be an element of that where now the

814
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 2: offenders are going, okay, get out in the elements and

815
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: your pajamas basically, and you have to stay with us

816
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 2: because you need us in order to survive. At least

817
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: that may have been a message at the outset.

818
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about Creva's injuries. His face

819
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: is covered in abrasions and scratches. The right side of

820
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: his head is covered in blood. There's a contusion and

821
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: a scratch on the left temple that have caused a

822
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: swelling on the left side of his head. His ears

823
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: are frostbitten, His lips and his eyes are swollen. The

824
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: tip of his nose is missing and there's no blood.

825
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: Both of his hands are charred black. A wound peels

826
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: the skin on his left hand back. His right hand

827
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: has wound at the base of the thumb. There's a

828
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: bite wound, possibly from an animal, but they aren't sure.

829
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: The skin covering the middle phalanx of his third middle

830
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: finger is completely bitten off. Blood is frozen between his

831
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 1: discolored fingers. His left hip and his inner side of

832
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: his left thigh have multiple straight edge lesions. His left shin,

833
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: exposed by the torn underwear, is swollen third degree burns

834
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: cover shinn to foot and there is a four by

835
00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: twelve inch area that is charred brown and black. And

836
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: the skin on his foot is peeling away. So what

837
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: is something that would happen naturally if somebody had a

838
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: heart attack in the snow and we're left there frostbite

839
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 1: or whatever, and what has to be some sort of horrible,

840
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: you know attack.

841
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 2: Well, there's no question Uri and Creva are they're being

842
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 2: beat sounds like Creva. There may have been a knife

843
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 2: used on him. The missing part of his finger, you know,

844
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:32,280
Speaker 2: that's where Okay, you said it was like bitten off. Okay,

845
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 2: what animals are out at this location and it's unusual

846
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: just to see like a middle finger missing, and so

847
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 2: I'm questioning whether it was bitten. Could it have been

848
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 2: cut off some aspects? Maybe even with the fire this

849
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 2: there could be a level of torture being inflicted on

850
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 2: uri in Creva, you know. And then why would the

851
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: offenders be doing this this type of torture. Are they,

852
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: you know, trying to elicit statements or find out what

853
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: these two saw that maybe they shouldn't have seen. My

854
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: senses is that both Urie and Creev probably died as

855
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 2: a result of blows maybe you know, repeated blows to

856
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 2: the head. But there's a lot there's violence. There's a

857
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: lot of violence going on to both of these victims. Yep.

858
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: And so we still have seven more people to account for.

859
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: So later in the day, same location, they go a

860
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: half mile from that cedar tree and they find two.

861
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 2: More people, two more victims.

862
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: Yep. So you've got Egor and Zena. This is one

863
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: of the two women. So Egor and Zena are found

864
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: and they are a half mile from that cedar tree.

865
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: Their bodies are on the slope facing the tent. Egor's

866
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: body is face up behind a small birch. His legs

867
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: are bent at the knees, his hands are pressed to

868
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: his chest. His watch reads five thirty one, and I

869
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: think we need to jot that time down that becomes important.

870
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 1: I think later on five thirty one. It doesn't say

871
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: whether it's AM or PM five thirty one. Zena is

872
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: buried under firm snow above the treeline. Her arms are

873
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: curled with her fists clinched and they're under her body.

874
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: Her right leg is lifted to her stomach, frozen in

875
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: the position of like somebody is climbing. Do you want

876
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: to talk about the injuries or what do you think?

877
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: And I also have bigger injuries to talk about.

878
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just going to try to clarify the

879
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 2: buried in snow. Is this a result of just, you know,

880
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 2: snowfall or did somebody purposely bury her?

881
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 1: They are not indicating that this is like a burial site.

882
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 1: I think it's under snow. So both of these people,

883
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: Igor and Zena have more clothes on than either Ury

884
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: or Crevo did. They are still underprepared for being out here.

885
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: Igor is wearing a cotton undershirt, a red checkered shirt,

886
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: blue sweater, and a blue ferm lined vest which is unbuttoned.

887
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: He's also wearing black satin briefs brown flee ski pants

888
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: and some cotton sweatpants, and his socks are mismatched. On

889
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: his left foot he has like a brown sock, and

890
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: I mean he's it's definitely mismatched. Xena is more warmly dressed.

891
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 1: She has a pinkish red wool cap over a blue

892
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 1: wool knitted cap, a satin bra, blue knitted T shirt,

893
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 1: multiicolored checkered shirt. She's got more clothing on the left

894
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: cuff of the wool sweater is worn off. A military

895
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 1: style mask is lodged under her checkered shirt. She's also

896
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: wearing black cotton swimming trunks and black cotton body suit.

897
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 1: Now the swimming trunks, I know, sounds odd. I saw

898
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: a couple of photos in my package of the huge

899
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: package we had of them swimming in like a creek

900
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: when you know it has to be below freezing. So

901
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was just for warmth. I've

902
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: seen several of those photos. I think maybe that was

903
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: the thing they like to do. I don't know if

904
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: that's at all helpful, but I wasn't surprised reading about

905
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: the swimsuits.

906
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 2: Cold plunge.

907
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh good god, yeah, exactly. That's right. On both feet.

908
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: She has three layers of socks. Now I've got injuries

909
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 1: whenever you're ready.

910
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: For those, yeah, I think you know. My only comment

911
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: about the state of dress is it's still wholly inadequate.

912
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 2: These two did not dress and voluntarily leave that tent

913
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 2: and walk what is it, basically a mile and a

914
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: half away, you know, So their state of dress is

915
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 2: probably how they were hanging out in the tent before

916
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: the offenders came in.

917
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: Okay. They both show signs of non fatal what they

918
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: say is non fatal blunt force trauma. Igor's face, his hands,

919
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: and his ankles are scratched and bloodied. His nose and

920
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: his right hand knuckles are bruised by a blunt object.

921
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: They think. Zena's face, especially on the right side, is

922
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: purple red, bruised, and bloodied. The bridge of her nose

923
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: is slightly conco her eyes and her lips are swollen.

924
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 1: Her hands and fingers are a purple brownish color and

925
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: badly scraped. Her right hand is an irregularly shaped wound

926
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: with jagged edges and a scalped skin flap. The skin

927
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: at the base of her third finger is gone. And

928
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 1: then we will have some autopsy results because these bodies

929
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: are shipped out these four bodies and they do an

930
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 1: autopsy while trying to find Now we're up to five missings.

931
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 2: Still, I would say that Igor and Zena's injuries are

932
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 2: you know, they're very similar to Yuri and craves injuries.

933
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 2: There appears to be they're being beat. You know, again,

934
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 2: is there some aspect of torture that's really hard to

935
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: discern just from verbal description. But you know the question

936
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 2: is is why are they located separately from Yuri and

937
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,240
Speaker 2: Kreva and they don't have any fatal injury. I would

938
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: suggest right now that possibly Igor and Xeno were able

939
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 2: to run away after they had been beat and then

940
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 2: they succumbed to the elements, you know, they got a

941
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 2: bottom all away and then ultimately they succumbed, whereas Yuri

942
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 2: and Creva, I think they likely had the fatal injuries

943
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: inflicted at that campfire.

944
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 1: Well, we get the bodies taken and they have forensic

945
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,720
Speaker 1: experts conduct the autopsies on all four of these folks.

946
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,359
Speaker 1: So this happens March fourth, which is, you know, five

947
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: maybe five days after they were discovered. Their deaths are

948
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: deemed violent and accidental, and they say they were caused

949
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: by exposure and hypothermia. The evidence that they say is

950
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: that there's swelling of the meningis and there is it

951
00:55:55,360 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 1: is a dark liquid blood filling the cardiac cavity and

952
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 1: the presence of Vishnaevski spots. Have you heard of that before?

953
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: That doesn't sound familiar.

954
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: They are spots that are dark brown to black heemorrhatic

955
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 1: lesions on the gastric mucosa found during an autopsy, and

956
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: it's a riable indicator of fatal hypothermia, is what they say.

957
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: Does that sound right to you?

958
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 2: You know? Again, I just don't have any experience, you know,

959
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:34,280
Speaker 2: with this type of temperature in the cases that I've got,

960
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 2: So these people are the experts, and so what they

961
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 2: in essence are saying, at least with what you're telling me,

962
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 2: is to say I had all four of the victims

963
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 2: were beat possibly cut into at some point or fingers

964
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 2: smashed or cut off whatever is or torture. I don't know,

965
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 2: but I'm kind of leaning that there may be something

966
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 2: like that. But none of the injuries. These pathologists couldn't

967
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 2: say any of these injuries by themselves were fatal. The

968
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 2: victims also had the exposure and there's the evidence, the

969
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 2: medical evidence of the exposure. Now with Uri and Creve

970
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 2: my senses is that they didn't have the ability, the

971
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 2: wherewithal in order to be able to get away from

972
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 2: that location, whereas I still think Igor and Zena possibly

973
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: were able to get away, but then ultimately the exposure

974
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 2: got them.

975
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: So let me tell you some things that I found confusing.

976
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: Everybody except for Uri. All the other three people had

977
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 1: overfilled bladders and third and fourth degree frostbite on their fingers,

978
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: and Uri and Crevo had them on their toes. Based

979
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: on the state of the body's decomposition and the contents

980
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: of their stomach, the medical examiner or the physicians estimated

981
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: that they died pretty quickly after these final diary in

982
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: trees that happened at the tent. They say between six

983
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: and eight hours. But we know that's the stomach contents

984
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: are not going to be reliable.

985
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 2: Overfilled bladders, you know, oftentimes after death, you know, bladders empty,

986
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 2: and we see that all the time, you know was there.

987
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 2: You know, these bodies probably would freeze pretty quickly. You know,

988
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 2: I don't know if that would contribute to the lack

989
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 2: of the bladders emptying and overfilled. They weren't allowed to

990
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 2: use the bathroom. Yes, you know, who knows. It's just

991
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 2: I don't think it's necessarily significant from a criminal aspect.

992
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 2: You know, that doesn't tell me much. I think, you know,

993
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 2: the injuries, the locations, the state address, that's all kind

994
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 2: of adding into a certain aspect to this crime that

995
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 2: is different than what we normally see out of homicidal violence.

996
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about the autopsy findings. There's

997
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: some little things that get picked up that obviously the

998
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: searcher couldn't say. So. One is Yuri's exposure was very extreme,

999
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: more than anybody else's. They basically said, if he had survived,

1000
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: he would have lost all of his fingers and toes.

1001
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: And they said, although he was found Now, this is

1002
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 1: what I was thinking about. You for criminals, You know

1003
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: that the idea of whether or not this is you know,

1004
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: criminal in nature. They said, even though he was found

1005
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: lying face down, his back exhibited liver mortis, and that

1006
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 1: they say that meant that he might have been moved

1007
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: after death.

1008
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 2: I would say that's a certainty that he was moved.

1009
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 2: Liver mortis or lividity is after death. You know, the

1010
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: heart is no longer moving the blood around, and so

1011
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 2: the blood settles inside the body with gravity. And it's

1012
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 2: one of those characteristics that we look for to determine

1013
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 2: whether or not the person died in the position has

1014
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 2: found or if the person has been moved after death

1015
00:59:55,480 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 2: and with uri who's face down but his is up

1016
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 2: opposite gravity tells me he has been moved. He died

1017
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 2: and was on his back for a period of time.

1018
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 2: Now the temperatures that his body is being exposed to,

1019
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 2: I think can cloud Well, how long would that have been?

1020
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 2: But that lividity was there, that blood settled on his

1021
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 2: backside and was there in that position long enough to

1022
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 2: basically what we call fix in place. So when his

1023
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 2: body is moved, the blood doesn't just go back, you know,

1024
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 2: down with gravity again to his front. So he's dead

1025
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 2: for a period of time and then somebody moves him,

1026
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 2: turns some face down, probably further away from the fire

1027
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 2: on top of these, you know cedar branches.

1028
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: Is that nefarious or not? We don't know, right, you know.

1029
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 2: Well, this is where it's it was that part of

1030
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 2: the original interactions between the offender and this crime scene,

1031
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 2: or did you have somebody else come come after these

1032
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 2: these two guys are dead, and search them looking for valuables.

1033
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 2: You know, you could have other hunters out there, or

1034
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 2: other trekkers or whatever that may be contaminating this crime scene.

1035
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 2: But yours body has been moved, you know. And and

1036
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 2: and so that's you know, why his body is being

1037
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 2: moved versus the others. You know, maybe there's something there.

1038
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,959
Speaker 1: Okay, one thing that seems mysterious to me. They said

1039
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: that the soft tissue of his right cheek is covered

1040
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: with a gray foam and gray liquid is leeching out

1041
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 1: of his open mouth. Is that blood? I mean, I

1042
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: don't even know what that would be.

1043
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: Well, when we see whether it be you know, sometimes

1044
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 2: when you see overdoses, you know, you get this froth

1045
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 2: that can come up out of the mouth. If he's

1046
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 2: got some bleeding inside of his lungs, you can get

1047
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 2: this bloody froth as as you know, he's breathing with

1048
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 2: this blood inside this liquid inside his his lungs, the

1049
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 2: gray coloration. And I'm not sure what to make of that,

1050
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 2: you know, And I guess it's also you know, is

1051
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 2: there any correlation between that gray colored froth and his

1052
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 2: stomach contents?

1053
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: I don't have the answer to that, I can tell

1054
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 1: you that that Kreva had further abrasions along the right

1055
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 1: side of his chest and bruises on his left buttock.

1056
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: The chunk of skin missing from his right hand finger

1057
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: I mentioned that is discovered in his mouth.

1058
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 2: No, that's interesting.

1059
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And Igor's missing a central incisor in his lower jaw.

1060
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 1: But they think that this is a tooth that's been

1061
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 1: missing for a while, but they're not one hundred percent sure.

1062
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 1: And then Zena, they found a very large bruise on

1063
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: the right side of her torso in the lumbar region,

1064
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: measuring eleven and a half by two and a half inches.

1065
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: It appears to be afflicted by something like a baton.

1066
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 1: Although she was found on her right side, her body

1067
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: exhibits liver mortise on her back. So another person that's

1068
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: flipped or moved, right, Yeah, I mean, and we don't

1069
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: have everybody yet, there's five more people.

1070
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the movement of the bodies. Uri and

1071
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 2: Zena's bodies may just be offenders coming back and checking,

1072
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 2: you know, are they dead or other things. But you know,

1073
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 2: the the tissue found in Creva's mouth from his own finger.

1074
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 2: Now he was the one that was missing part of

1075
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 2: his middle finger, like it had been bitten off, says, The.

1076
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: Skin covering the middle pholanix or whatever that was of

1077
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: the third middle finger is completely bitten off.

1078
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 2: Well, and so that's where now it's the skin covering

1079
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 2: his his middle finger. So that's found in his mouth. Yeah, okay,

1080
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 2: So why would he be biting his own middle finger

1081
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 2: to the point where he's removing a chunk?

1082
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: Do you think that there's a chance because all of

1083
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 1: these people are sort of stripped down that phenomenon that

1084
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: happens with hypothermia where you just you go into a

1085
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: delusion and think taking your clothes off is going to

1086
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 1: actually make you warmer. Do you think anything like that

1087
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 1: could have happened with these folks?

1088
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't discount you know, some aspect. You know,

1089
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 2: since the autopsy findings indicate to that all four of

1090
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 2: these victims died due to exposure, you know, there is

1091
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 2: a possibility that towards you know, their end of life,

1092
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 2: there is that they're not necessarily thinking straight and that

1093
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 2: may be contributing to some of the autopsy findings. However,

1094
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 2: you know the extensive nature of the bruising and the abrasions,

1095
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 2: and you know, all of that is suggesting that all

1096
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 2: four of them are being significantly beat. It may not

1097
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 2: have been fatal, but they are being beat significantly. There

1098
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:54,320
Speaker 2: may be aspects of the victims after that where now

1099
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 2: they're not thinking straight. But you know, they didn't just

1100
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 2: walk out of the tent because of hypothermia. They are

1101
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 2: forced out of the tent and marched a significant distance away.

1102
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: Well, we have to go back to our search. But

1103
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 1: because we have so many injuries that we've had to

1104
01:05:12,200 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 1: deal with, I think this part of the search is

1105
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 1: going to have to wait for next week because not

1106
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: only do we have five more missing people, but we

1107
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: have a lot of conspiracy theories and a particular group

1108
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: of people who are targeted with very little evidence. So

1109
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of speculation that

1110
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 1: happens in the second half of this.

1111
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 2: Okay, well, you know it's uh, I'm gonna have to

1112
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 2: noodle on this one.

1113
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 1: Noodle Okay, are you do you not noodle on all

1114
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 1: of my two partners?

1115
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 2: Yep, looking forward to hearing more about this one. It

1116
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 2: is interesting.

1117
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll see you in a week.

1118
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:49,919
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

1119
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly Right Production.

1120
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes, go to exactly Rightmedia

1121
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

1122
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

1123
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1124
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1125
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1126
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1127
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1128
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1129
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

1130
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1131
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1132
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1133
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1134
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1135
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 2: Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1136
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.