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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by my good friend Bill Vanderhyden. He's back

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Speaker 1: on the show. He is the founder and owner of

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Speaker 1: Ironwill Broadheads. I like him. He's an engineer, and because

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Speaker 1: of that, I love that he spends a lot of

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Speaker 1: time and his energy. You're researching what works, why it works,

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Speaker 1: can it be improved on? You know all that stuff

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Speaker 1: that us engineers kind of end up nerding out on.

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Speaker 1: I find cool and I feel that if I can

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Speaker 1: make that connection from the engineering side back to the

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Speaker 1: hunting side and then kind of figure out how that

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Speaker 1: works with real world results. Right, Like one thing, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure Bill can attest to this, Like you get

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Speaker 1: taught in school or in college, you know, everything out

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Speaker 1: of this book is cookie cutter. But then they had

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Speaker 1: some professors always say like, don't let your studies or

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Speaker 1: your book trump what happens out in the real world. Right,

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Speaker 1: So there's this thing as an engineer where it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: all this this book tells us all these cookie cutter solutions,

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Speaker 1: but yet take what's happening out in the real world

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Speaker 1: over all that. So in hopes today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about broadheads, arrows, flight, all that, and then I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna ask Bill a lot of questions on like,

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Speaker 1: this is what the science says or this is what

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Speaker 1: the engineering or the physics say. Have you found that's

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Speaker 1: what works out in the field, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: how has that translated to real world results? So I'm

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Speaker 1: excited about this one. We've had Bill on the podcast

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Speaker 1: I believe once, if not twice before and always enjoy

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Speaker 1: our conversation. So welcome to the show. Bill.

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Speaker 2: Hey, thanks Jason, thanks for having me on. Yeah, looking

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Speaker 2: forward to the discussion today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, so last time we touched on it,

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Speaker 1: I think you were a year through the study at

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Speaker 1: the University of Colorado. You've been kind of heading that up.

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Speaker 1: Can you kind of give us an update on that.

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Speaker 1: I know you were looking at you know, arrows, weights, veins,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, drag, wind drift kind of it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a big question, but if you can maybe

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Speaker 1: just kind of get us a breakdown on what's come

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Speaker 1: out of that study in the second year or any

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Speaker 1: new updates and and and really how it affects us

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Speaker 1: as a hunter choosing broadheads, arrow vane set ups. You

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Speaker 1: know anything that really matters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And the reason for this study is, you know,

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Speaker 2: for ball hunting, there's really two things that are very important,

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Speaker 2: maybe equally important. That's good erowflight getting to the animal,

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Speaker 2: and then penetration through the animal once you get there.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like there's there hasn't been good scientific

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Speaker 2: studies there has been on the target archery side, there's good,

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Speaker 2: there's good papers and research there, but not so much

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Speaker 2: when you put a broadhead on the front. That aeroflight's

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Speaker 2: much different. And then also you know, trying to maximize

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Speaker 2: that momentum in a straight line through the animal and

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Speaker 2: have low force to penetrate all that is also very

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Speaker 2: important on the on the hunting side. You know, So

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Speaker 2: I spent a lot of years developing a broadhead to

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Speaker 2: get max penetrations through an animal. But I felt like

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Speaker 2: it was that the aerow flight side was kind of

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Speaker 2: missing at least, you know, there's a lot of anecdotal

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Speaker 2: evidence out there. You know, I tried this and this happened,

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Speaker 2: but there's not good engineering experiments. Like you know, as

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Speaker 2: an engineer, you know that when you do it, you

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Speaker 2: set up an experiment. As an engineer, you do you know,

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Speaker 2: lots of repeats, lots you know, you set it up

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Speaker 2: in such a way so that you can look at

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Speaker 2: the variability and then really make statistically significant decisions there

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Speaker 2: on one design point maybe better than another. So I

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Speaker 2: knew there was a lot of opportunity there for improvement.

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Speaker 2: And I've been a adjunct instructor of mechanical engineering at

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Speaker 2: the University of Colorado for several years as one of

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Speaker 2: the faculty directors for the Senior Design Project class. So

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Speaker 2: the last two years I sponsored, my company sponsored the

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Speaker 2: projects and I directed them, really focusing on improving aeroflight

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Speaker 2: for bohuney, you know, improving aeroflight with fixed Blaye broadheads

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Speaker 2: on the front. And this involved a lot of computer modeling,

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Speaker 2: you know, fluidynamic modeling of full arrows with broadheads on

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Speaker 2: the front, veins on the back, and you know, how

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Speaker 2: do they act in flight when they're going, you know,

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Speaker 2: going straight. Maybe they're tipped a little bit, as if

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Speaker 2: your bow is a bit out of tune. And we

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Speaker 2: looked at accuracy, stability, drag, spin up, wind drift, and sound.

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Speaker 2: So you know, we learned some things about all those

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Speaker 2: and just maybe wanted to touch on a number of

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Speaker 2: those things that could help people improve their arrowflight for

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Speaker 2: bow hunting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Bill, So let me ask a question. And this

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Speaker 1: is me not being a mechanical engineer. You're gonna you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this guy's definitely a civil engineer when I start to

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Speaker 1: ask these. But you look at things that are built

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Speaker 1: to fly. You know, if it's a regular dart, you

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Speaker 1: know you got a very sharp point. You look at

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Speaker 1: a plane, it's a very sleek point. Wings are on

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Speaker 1: the back, you know, all the stabilizings on the back.

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Speaker 1: And you look at our our you know, our target

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Speaker 1: point arrows once again very sleek on the front. You

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Speaker 1: have all your steering on the back. How much or

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Speaker 1: maybe you don't have this number, but is my understanding

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Speaker 1: is when you start to put you know, a fixed

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Speaker 1: blaze or blades out front, you've now got the ability

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Speaker 1: for the wind to basically if that thing isn't flying

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Speaker 1: perfectly perpendicular or you know, perpendicular to the plane that

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Speaker 1: that is traveling, you start to get some side force.

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Speaker 1: And that's really what causes these major issues between shooting

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Speaker 1: my field point where it's not near as important versus

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Speaker 1: now I've got a broadhead that now has the ability

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Speaker 1: to steer from the front, the part that should be

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Speaker 1: cutting the area or the air is now being pushed

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Speaker 1: at on a side, and then it's it's up to

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Speaker 1: those veins that to over control. Is that a is

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Speaker 1: that a accurate or is there more to it than

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Speaker 1: that or is that really what's kind of going on?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's and that's really the kind of the biggest

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Speaker 2: factor is the air stability. So with the field point,

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Speaker 2: like you mentioned, with the field point, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: very very you know, small streamlined. If you have veins

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Speaker 2: on the back of any size nearly any size, the

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Speaker 2: arrow becomes very stable. And the problem that often happened

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Speaker 2: is when you put a broad head on the front

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Speaker 2: and this could be a you know, mechanical broadhead it's

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Speaker 2: just you know, has a longer farrell and some exposed blades,

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Speaker 2: or maybe a standard broadhead might be a little bit

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Speaker 2: more unstable, and then you get to like a very

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Speaker 2: large wide blade broadhead, which should be you know, more

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Speaker 2: unstable yet and it's that aero stability that then translates

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Speaker 2: to accuracy when things aren't perfect. So that was that

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Speaker 2: was probably the top factor in the study, is understanding

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Speaker 2: how to get better accuracy stability when you have fixed

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Speaker 2: blade heads on the front because like you said, if

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Speaker 2: the arrow, say aero comes out of your bow and

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Speaker 2: it's tipped, you know, tiptail left, you have that airflow

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Speaker 2: hitting kind of left side of the arrow and up front,

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Speaker 2: you know it's hitting the blades on the left side,

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Speaker 2: it's going to want to push it off to the right.

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Speaker 2: Your center of mass is kind of the pivot point there.

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Speaker 2: The airflow across the left side of the veins on

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Speaker 2: the back is going to have some force and you

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Speaker 2: know it's technically it's called lift force, but in this

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Speaker 2: case it's not up it's just perpendicular to the flow.

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Speaker 2: So just for definitions there, force in line with the

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Speaker 2: flow is drag drag force, and force perpendicular is a

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Speaker 2: lift force. So you've got this lift force at the

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Speaker 2: back pushing you know, pushing it back on course or

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Speaker 2: restoring it. And that distance from the center of mass

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Speaker 2: back to the veins, that distance times of force kind

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Speaker 2: of gives you a torque. It's going to rotate it

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Speaker 2: back on target. And then at the front that force

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Speaker 2: on the blades pushing it off times that lever arm

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Speaker 2: to center mask is a toward pushing it off. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: a lot of the study. We have a couple of

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Speaker 2: papers we've published on our website, but it'll talk about

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Speaker 2: restoring torque with different vein designs, and you want that

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Speaker 2: restoring torque to be high. So if it comes out,

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Speaker 2: say tail left, it very quickly straightens it back out,

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Speaker 2: points it towards the target, and it greatly improves accuracy.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's what's been missing and a lot

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Speaker 2: of the reasons I wanted to do the study is

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Speaker 2: to show the physics and then the modeling, and then

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Speaker 2: also the empirical testing. You know, we've got over twenty

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Speaker 2: four hundred shots now out of a shooting machine where

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Speaker 2: we've recorded velocity with a lab radar. We've looked at

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Speaker 2: with a high speed camera the arrow coming out, spinning

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Speaker 2: up and stabilizing, and those are two different things, by

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Speaker 2: the way, spin up in stability, and we'll talk about

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Speaker 2: that more. But and then also shot over microphones recorded sound.

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Speaker 2: But we've got twenty four hundred shots of empirical you know,

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Speaker 2: testing to kind of verify the modeling. But yeah, that

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Speaker 2: stability is a huge factor for having good accuracy with broadheads.

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Speaker 1: A quick question for you, I know, and you'll probably

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Speaker 1: correct me. How I assume like an iron will technically

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Speaker 1: is a four blade broadhead, but it really has one.

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Speaker 1: It's I'm gonna you're probably gonna be like Jason, I

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Speaker 1: wish you wouldn't talk about this, but it's basically a

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Speaker 1: large two blade broadhead with bleeder blades to make it

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Speaker 1: a So with that said, did you guys test other

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Speaker 1: manufacturers three blade or four blade heads to see if

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Speaker 1: that side force is less because basically you're not pushing

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Speaker 1: on one large blade versus like a symmetrical three or

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Speaker 1: four blade versus your guys's four blade. If that makes

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Speaker 1: any sense, that you do any testing to see if

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Speaker 1: if that force is less or or just.

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Speaker 2: Some kind of ye, just some kind of screening testing

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Speaker 2: early on and and three three blade versus two blade

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Speaker 2: side collars. A two blade with bleeders, all right, some

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Speaker 2: people might call it a four blade, but yeah, it's uh,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't vary. It's a similar issue whether you have uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, a two blade, two blade with bleeders, three

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Speaker 2: blade or four blade. All of those create some lift

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Speaker 2: when there's some angle of attack, you know, when the

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Speaker 2: arrow is tipped to the to the airflow. They all

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Speaker 2: create some lift and it can it can vary, but

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Speaker 2: it's more of it'll you know, the size of it

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Speaker 2: lay as a factor. But then also just the the geometry,

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Speaker 2: like you know, so I designed iron will broadheads using

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Speaker 2: fluidynamic modeling to kind of minimize the drag. You know,

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Speaker 2: I want that flow to go out around the blades

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Speaker 2: and then come back together, you know. And there's so

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Speaker 2: there's bevels in the back edges of the blade and

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Speaker 2: it's it's kind of streamlined to minimize drag. And so

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Speaker 2: that's there's some three blades that have that have flat

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Speaker 2: backs to the blades and also have coming kind of

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Speaker 2: some steps down in the feral that have very high

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Speaker 2: drag that where this condition is actually worse. They're more

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Speaker 2: unstable from that. So it's hard to say a two

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Speaker 2: blade versus a three blade and to make like general

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Speaker 2: statements like that. It more depends on the geometry and

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Speaker 2: the drag of the broadhead itself, and that's very geometry depended.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And then recovery torque does it is it better?

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Speaker 1: Do you recover quicker on like a longer arrow, getting

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Speaker 1: like the mass out front and your your veins, you know,

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Speaker 1: further back, or is a shorter arrow recover faster, Not

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Speaker 1: that it really matters, you're kind of stuck with your

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Speaker 1: own arrow. I was just curious if you've found that

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Speaker 1: like a longer arrow recovers quicker or slower.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you know, increasing FOC can help, but restore

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Speaker 2: quicker because you got a longer level arm to the

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Speaker 2: back to the veins and a shorter level arm to

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Speaker 2: the front. I'm not an extreme foc guy, but it's

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Speaker 2: the reason why I don't recommend like a low foc

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Speaker 2: like heavy arrows, you know, heavy arrows with one hundred

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Speaker 2: grain points, fifteen grain inserts, sixteen grain inserts, they often

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Speaker 2: have f focs that are down in that ten percent

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Speaker 2: or even less. I don't recommend that. It's it's more

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Speaker 2: likely to be unstable.

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Speaker 1: I like them.

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Speaker 2: I like to be over twelve percent on a hunting arrow,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think twelve to sixteen percent is typically

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Speaker 2: the range that I can hit, having a fairly long

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Speaker 2: draw and a longer arrow. But I don't see any

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Speaker 2: of to go extreme on that, you know, up to

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Speaker 2: you know, twenty percent range either. But yeah, that can help, and.

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Speaker 1: My head's already spinning to ask you a bunch of

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Speaker 1: questions and extreme like you know, the veins, you're probably

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Speaker 1: gonna touch on it. Maybe I'll just save that question.

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Speaker 1: I always like to think of the extremes, like if

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Speaker 1: we didn't have all the constraints on getting like large

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Speaker 1: veins by our rests and all these things that, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you were to just shoot as large a vein

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Speaker 1: as possible, like can you stabilize that real quick? And

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Speaker 1: could you overcome that? Versus like you're within the constraints

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Speaker 1: of what we consider a hunting vein that needs to

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Speaker 1: clear your shelf, your rest, you're you know, all of that,

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Speaker 1: Like how much how important is that? Could be? Design

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Speaker 1: a vein that would work better than what's available, but

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Speaker 1: it may be louder, it may you know, put extreme

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Speaker 1: drag on you know, all of these things, and it's

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Speaker 1: probably not practical. But is there a solution out there

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Speaker 1: if that wasn't a constraint, that we could get these

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Speaker 1: arrows stabilized and really steer a fixed blade really well?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we'll jump right into some of the

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Speaker 2: this answers there of what can help you out, And

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Speaker 2: a taller vein definitely helps and how having that area

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Speaker 2: high and back also helps. So the shape of the

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Speaker 2: vein and the height of the vein are two big factors.

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Speaker 2: So the from the first year study that that hunter profile,

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Speaker 2: this using the max hunter had was kind of the

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Speaker 2: best industry profile that we found because there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of area high in high and back on that shape

259
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Speaker 2: versus what's kind of known as more of a parabolic

260
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Speaker 2: where it's more of a fully rounded back end, where

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Speaker 2: there's more area forward. So this this geometry, if if

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Speaker 2: there's a similar surface area, this geometry had I think

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Speaker 2: was a twenty three percent increase in this restoring torque

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Speaker 2: or stability. So that was a big factor. Another thing

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Speaker 2: was height. So what I what I find is a

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Speaker 2: lot of people say they used to shoot a higher

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Speaker 2: profile vein, but they've gone to a shorter one for

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Speaker 2: sound or to reduce drag or you know, whatever reason.

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Speaker 2: But what we found in the study is so this

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Speaker 2: hybrid hunter is point five eight inches high. If we

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Speaker 2: model one that's ten percent shorter, so point five to three,

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Speaker 2: or you know, there's a lot of veins that are

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Speaker 2: point five to five. If you go from point five

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Speaker 2: to five, say two point five zero that ten percent

275
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Speaker 2: reduction in height, you get about a two and a

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Speaker 2: half percent reduction in drag, but you get an eleven

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Speaker 2: percent reduction in restoring torque. So it's not a good

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Speaker 2: trade off. I think a taller veins better. That's why

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Speaker 2: I generally recommend with with broadheads on the front that

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Speaker 2: I think a point five to five inch point five

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Speaker 2: to five point five eight inch veins, you know, are

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Speaker 2: going to perform better. You can even perform better. Yet

283
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,920
Speaker 2: by having more of that area kind of kind of

284
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Speaker 2: high and back, that geometry you know, works really well

285
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Speaker 2: to restore get them very quickly. You know, it both

286
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,080
Speaker 2: can be out of tune. We kind of quantify how

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Speaker 2: far out of tune, but it could be pretty far

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Speaker 2: out of tune. Still have broadheads hit with field points

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Speaker 2: with those taller vein and that right kind of geometry

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Speaker 2: of the vein.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you know I used to I shoot

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Speaker 1: a four and I'll ask you about four versus three

293
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 1: or what you fell in there. But one thing I

294
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Speaker 1: struggle with is if I start to get too taller

295
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Speaker 1: on that upper end shooting a four vein, like I

296
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Speaker 1: start to run into potential contact issues with my rest

297
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Speaker 1: you know, some of these other issues that you know

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Speaker 1: that that it's like the point of you know, limiting

299
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Speaker 1: return or the point of I need to go backwards,

300
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Speaker 1: and you know, there's just nothing I'm gonna make work

301
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Speaker 1: unless I was to go to three vein. Do you

302
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 1: guys in your studies do you start to look at that?

303
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 1: Are you just looking at just pure data on what

304
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 1: controls the best and then you know if you can

305
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Speaker 1: make a rest or a hunting rest work, you can?

306
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Speaker 1: Or are you guys looking at that, like, how do

307
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 1: we how do we get these to clear clear arrest

308
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Speaker 1: at for four veins? Yeah?

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00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,120
Speaker 2: So you know what, And we've done some modeling of

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00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,960
Speaker 2: four veins versus three, and I've done some testing at

311
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,320
Speaker 2: four versus three, and a lot of people are going

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Speaker 2: much shorter maybe zero point four inch tall vein, but

313
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Speaker 2: four of them. And what I found is that it

314
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 2: doesn't do nearly as good a job stabilizing as three

315
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 2: taller veins, and you have the added drag and sound

316
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 2: of a fourth vein, And so I feel like three

317
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,720
Speaker 2: taller veins is kind of more efficient in doing everything

318
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 2: you want a vein to do, which is to me,

319
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,520
Speaker 2: you know, you want a vein to have good, good stability,

320
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,240
Speaker 2: So create that lift force that's going to push it

321
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 2: back on, but kind of minimize the drag. If you

322
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,400
Speaker 2: minimize drag, you also minimize wind drift because what happens

323
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,720
Speaker 2: in wind drift when you get this, say crossflow, what

324
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 2: happens is your your arrow making an initial kind of

325
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,400
Speaker 2: kick sideways from that crosswind, but then it pretty quickly

326
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 2: aligns to that resultant direction of airflow. And like if

327
00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 2: you say you're bow shooting, throw eighty feet per second

328
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 2: and you have I think a sixteen mile or across

329
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 2: wind is what I calculated the numbers, four, your arrow

330
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 2: would end up tipping like five degrees into the wind.

331
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,639
Speaker 2: And most of that wind drift is just due to

332
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,360
Speaker 2: that inline drag. So if you can reduce inline drag,

333
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,400
Speaker 2: you can reduce wind drift as well. And that's why

334
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 2: I think three higher profile is a little better than

335
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:27,359
Speaker 2: than four slightly lower profile, because you might you probably

336
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 2: get less drag overall and better restoring. But to answer

337
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,040
Speaker 2: your question, if you had four tall ones, would that

338
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,719
Speaker 2: stabilize even better? Yeah, it would, But you know, if

339
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,640
Speaker 2: you're contacting something that kind of blows everything right because

340
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,320
Speaker 2: your accuracy is gone, So yeah, I can see the

341
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,480
Speaker 2: trade off there. You for sure want to make sure

342
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 2: that's not an issue, so you know, you know, pottering

343
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,880
Speaker 2: your rest or or somehow, you know, figuring making sure

344
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 2: you're not getting rest contact is very important when you're

345
00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,720
Speaker 2: shooting those taller veins. Yeah, definitely.

346
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,920
Speaker 1: Another quick question for you. So one of the reasons

347
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,639
Speaker 1: I shoot four veane and my I feel like my

348
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,080
Speaker 1: arrows are pretty pretty good. You know, we'll talk about

349
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,040
Speaker 1: the quality of arrows. You know, everybody's got the one,

350
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 1: you know, one one thousandth of an inch straightness or

351
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 1: five one thousands how much all of that matters. But

352
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,720
Speaker 1: I shoot a pretty good arrow. But I've always shot

353
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Speaker 1: four veins because there are times where you know, and

354
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:33,760
Speaker 1: you probably know more about this than I do as well,

355
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 1: but there's always like a strong side of the arrow,

356
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 1: right or the spine of the arrow is usually stronger

357
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 1: no matter how you know, high quality they are. So

358
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,159
Speaker 1: by having four veins, it gives me the ability to

359
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 1: knock tune, you know, more consistently, versus especially if I

360
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 1: go with a cock vein and everything's kind of messed up,

361
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,440
Speaker 1: you know, or it's set, then it really kind of

362
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,480
Speaker 1: screws my coloring up unless I just went with all

363
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 1: white veins and you know, took a sharpiend put a

364
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 1: star on which everyone should be up or down or

365
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 1: whatever that was. That's my own personal reason because there

366
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 1: are times where it's like, man, this arrow just flies

367
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,600
Speaker 1: with the rest of them. If I turn the knock

368
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,440
Speaker 1: ninety degrees, you know, I set set the knock out,

369
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, with the little tick the indicator or the

370
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,320
Speaker 1: index on the on the knock, I just set to

371
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 1: the outside of my riser. And that's kind of my system.

372
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's really the only reason I shoot four

373
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 1: over three is for knock tuning. But now you're you're

374
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,440
Speaker 1: almost talking me into maybe going back and checking out

375
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 1: three white veins and then I can just you know,

376
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 1: draw on the one that needs to be up.

377
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's why I typically do, and that's

378
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,760
Speaker 2: what you do custom build aero builds and we just

379
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,119
Speaker 2: do the three white veins, and yeah, it kind of

380
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,919
Speaker 2: gives you the option for three different positions of your

381
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 2: arrow if you would need it. But but honestly, what

382
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 2: I what I've found, and you know, I used to

383
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 2: measure spine on every arrow, and you know, go to

384
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 2: the flutch to the high side and do all that.

385
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,720
Speaker 2: But as I've learned more, and what I've found is

386
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:03,320
Speaker 2: if well, first off, you want to be properly spined

387
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 2: like you do, not want to be underspined. So I

388
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 2: and we put we put charts on our website. You

389
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 2: know for this reason that the numbers on there, so

390
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 2: it'll have different You can pick the chart for how

391
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 2: it's total weight you want up front with your broadhead

392
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,680
Speaker 2: end components. We have charge from one twenty five, seventy five,

393
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 2: two hundred up to two and fifty granes up front,

394
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 2: and then you know your arrow length and your bow

395
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,119
Speaker 2: poundage and it'll give you recommended aerowspine and those charts

396
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 2: we put together at Ironwellfitters dot com, they're going to

397
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 2: tell you there won't be on the light end. They'll

398
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 2: be a little more conservative. They'll be like optimal to

399
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 2: slightly stiff. And what I've seen with that with the

400
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 2: high speed camera is in doing that, you get very

401
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 2: little flex of the arrow. Anyway, I get like a

402
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,359
Speaker 2: half inch of vertical flex coming out of the bow

403
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 2: and then like within six feet it's just going straight.

404
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 2: And I think for a hunting arrow, that's what you

405
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 2: want for target arrow it doesn't matter so much. Watch

406
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 2: you know, you you may find that and a lot

407
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,400
Speaker 2: of you know, target archers will do this. I'll add

408
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 2: maybe add the more more or less point weight and

409
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 2: find out where they can hold the tightest groups. And

410
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 2: if target archery is most more important to you, no

411
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 2: no problem doing that. That that makes sense. But what

412
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 2: you can find is that you could be underspined. And

413
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 2: I've talked to doctor James Parks about this, who's done

414
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: a lot of papers and research. He has a he

415
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 2: has a PhD in mechanical engineering. A lot of it

416
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 2: was on target aerow flight and then he was the

417
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 2: coach for the national team for Australia for archery. You

418
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 2: know what he found is that spine doesn't matter that much.

419
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 2: You can go quite a bit underspine and still shoot

420
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 2: pretty good groups in target archery. I would not recommend

421
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 2: that for broadheads for a couple of reasons. One, if

422
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 2: your arrow's excessively flexing up and down, now that that

423
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 2: blade is giving some you know, angle of attack to

424
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: the oncoming airflow, it's.

425
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: Going to push you off.

426
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 2: Also at impact, you know, the best probably the best

427
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 2: measurement of how much penetration you're going to get is

428
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 2: that momentum which is mass times velocity and it's a

429
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: vector quantity, so in that straight line. So you want

430
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 2: that mass and that velocity to be in a straight

431
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 2: line to maximize your penetration. And then that's going to

432
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 2: be equal to some force time's time. So you couple

433
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 2: that with a low force to penetrate. You know, a

434
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 2: broadhead is going to have low force to cut through

435
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 2: high bone whatever. That's going to maximize your penetration. So anyway,

436
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,679
Speaker 2: that's that's kind of a long explanation of why you

437
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 2: want to have kind of optimal spine to to a

438
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 2: little stiff But once you do that, I found and

439
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 2: you have an arrow that's got relatively consistent spine around

440
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 2: the shaft, and I would say that you know, you

441
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: know with the Eastern accesses is the ones we do

442
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 2: custom EERI builds with. They do a good job. But

443
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: you know, the top manufacturers out there, I think they

444
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: all do a pretty good job. You know, Victory Goal

445
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: to Black Eagle, you know, they're premium hunting arrows. I

446
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: think there's not a lot of variation. It's spiner on

447
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 2: the shaft and what I've seen is if you have

448
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 2: a bow just relatively well tuned and you're properly spined

449
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 2: to a bit stiff, there's not really a need to

450
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: knock tune. You put that broad head on and have

451
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 2: a very stable arrow, and there's not really there shouldn't

452
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: really be a need to knock tune to get that

453
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: to fly right. That's been my experience after you know,

454
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of taking into this, a

455
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 2: lot of experimentation.

456
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and my knock tuning may come as a result

457
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: of me just shooting a bad arrow and me thinking

458
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: that you know, I did I think fly perfect? No,

459
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's probably it's probably me torking

460
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: the bow or doing something I shouldn't and that's what

461
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: probably gets me into knock tuning. But uh, yeah, no,

462
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: it's it's that's the reason why I went to four vein.

463
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'll probably flutch them up with three veins

464
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: this year and see if it doesn't doesn't work for

465
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: me and give me a little bit more more ability

466
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: to get around the rest by being able to have

467
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: those at one hundred and twenty degrees instead of ninety

468
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: degrees going over the over the rest. So is there

469
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: anything else out of that study at Colorado. You know,

470
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: I know you you talked about you know, mass versus speed,

471
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: you know, foc We've talked about all that a little bit.

472
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to you want to

473
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: get into on those or we or or you know

474
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: findings that came out of the study. Yeah.

475
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 2: One thing I would mention is is a spin up

476
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 2: because I think there's some misconceptions out there. So so

477
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: the arrow spin up isn't really doesn't really stabilize the arrow.

478
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: It's not like a bullet that has to spin it

479
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: very high velocity because it's an unstable projectile and that

480
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: spin gives it to stability in an arrow, it's not

481
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: spinning that fast. You do want it to spin, though,

482
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 2: you don't want to have you don't want to have

483
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 2: it straight fletched. I don't even like one degree. I

484
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: think it doesn't quite. It just spends too much time

485
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 2: going kind of straight before it starts rotating. And the

486
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: problem there is is that if there's anything that's off,

487
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 2: So what spin up does. It doesn't stabilize the arrow,

488
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 2: but it does average out any asymmetries if if the

489
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 2: point is tipped off to the left, because you're you're say,

490
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 2: your half out's bent a little bit, and your arrow's pointing,

491
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 2: you know, twenty thousands to the left, twenty thousand of

492
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: an inch, and you shoot it without rotation, it's just

493
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: gonna it's just gonna go further and further left and

494
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 2: impact you know, left to the target. If it's rotating,

495
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: that lift force that's created now rotates kind of with it,

496
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 2: so it still kind of opens up your groups, but

497
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 2: it keeps it on average, you know, still heading down

498
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 2: range at the target. So that's the reason for spin.

499
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 2: But spinning really fast, even though there're be bents of

500
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: videos recently with guys that are awesome shooters say the

501
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: faster it spins up, the more accurate or stable it

502
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: will be. I don't think. I don't think that's the case.

503
00:25:59,240 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: I liked.

504
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 2: I like, and what from all this study, I like

505
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: the two to three degree offset or helical I think

506
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: is a good amount of a vein angle to give

507
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: you that spin up. And a lot of the we tested,

508
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: you know, eight or ten to the top hunting what

509
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: i'd consider top pending rains in the industry, they all

510
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: gave very similar spin up results of you know, seventy

511
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 2: to eighty revolutions per second. With that you're rotating. You know,

512
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 2: it's less than an arrow length that you're getting a

513
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: full rotation, so it can't veer very far off of

514
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: straight line, you know before it's rotating and you know,

515
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: pointing a different direction. I think that's good. I don't

516
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: see a need for that very high, you know, five

517
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: six degree spin, because then you're going to add more

518
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 2: drag and more drop, more, more wind drift. It is

519
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 2: fine if you're not. You know, a lot of these

520
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: things don't matter if you're going to shoot shoot under forty.

521
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: But if you're an out west bowhunter you're trying to

522
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: shoot very accurately sixty yards plus, then these these factors

523
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: are are more important.

524
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: Yep. I know you mentioned two to three degrees straight

525
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,239
Speaker 1: versus here cool. Do you have a like on your

526
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: hunting arrows? Do you go one way or the other

527
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: or does it really ends up being a wash? Yeah?

528
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think.

529
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 2: Are you saying offset versus helical?

530
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah? Just straight off versus yeah, yeah versus a

531
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: helical and and all that you can say your preference

532
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: and all kind of explain why I end up where

533
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm at. Yeah.

534
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: To me, man, there isn't really much of a difference.

535
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: If I think about what a helix is in geometry,

536
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 2: is if you take a straight line, you know, down

537
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: the cylinder and down the top of the cylinder, Say

538
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: you tip it at three degrees, you wrap it around

539
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 2: the cylinder, that's a helix.

540
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 3: Yah.

541
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: And really that's kind of what you're trying to do

542
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: with any of these clamps. To me, it's more of

543
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 2: a clamp. You got a straight clamp or a helical clamp.

544
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: But the straight clamp to me, is for small angles.

545
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: You know, it works well for you know, one degree,

546
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: maybe two degrees. If you get more than that, it

547
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 2: starts not following the roll off of the radius, and

548
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: that's when you need a helical clamp. But and that's

549
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: why I say I kind of consider them both the same.

550
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 2: It's more that clamp system you use and is it

551
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: fixed or does it wrap the narrow shaft. So my

552
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: preference would be a helical like two and a half

553
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: two to three degree, because I think it wraps the

554
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: shaft and it keeps it attached a little attaches it.

555
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: A little better. Yeah, And that's that's exactly what I

556
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: was gonna say, the only reason I went from you know,

557
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: straight offset was because we used to shoot the older

558
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: six milimeters, you know, the old the old gold tips

559
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: when they had you know, larger diameters and you can

560
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: actually get a two to three degree offset to actually

561
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: touch and you're you know, you're the back of your

562
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: vein wasn't floating and the front wasn't floating. We're now,

563
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: you know, shooting some of these micro diameter you know,

564
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: I shoot Black Eagle, you know, ram pages, and it's

565
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: like you can't get more than two degrees on the

566
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, on your vein without especially in the straight,

567
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: without it touching. So we've just went to to Helo

568
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: coal and it, uh, you know, it seems to seems

569
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: to work really well. And that's really the only reason

570
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: I always preferred straight. But Helo coal seems to give

571
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: me like better contact on the front of the vein

572
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: in the back and it seems to kind of get

573
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: stayed glued down a little bit better.

574
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, I agree. And then the last thing I

575
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: want to mention this study that we spent a lot

576
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: of a lot of time on this year was sound.

577
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 2: That's another reason people have gone away, maybe gone away

578
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 2: from a higher profile vein, especially like a shorter, higher

579
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 2: profile vein, is they feel like they're louder, and so

580
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 2: they've gone to shorter, longer ones which are less stable,

581
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: so less accurate. But what we've what I found was sound.

582
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: First off, I'm going to say that I don't think

583
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: it's that important. I don't think it's as important as

584
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: people make it out to be. And the reason for

585
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: that is, you know, we're shooting over the over microphones,

586
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: and we had we had two omni directional microphones, you know,

587
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 2: down range that we would shoot over and then we

588
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: would record the sound trace from the shot and then

589
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: the arrow traveling to the target, and then as it

590
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: passed over the target. And we did a lot of

591
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: analysis when the arrows ten yards away from the target

592
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: or the animals, say, and when it's ten yards away,

593
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: they're all pretty quiet. It's hard to get a statistically

594
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: significant difference between one vein and another. I mean, we

595
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: also found that our solid blade broadheads are very quiet

596
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: and we can't really distinguish them from field points. And

597
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: that's even as it passes, even as it passes over

598
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: the microphone. So that's kind of a side note, but

599
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: some broadhads are louder than others, and I think it's

600
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: because there's not a lot of fluidynamic modeling to try

601
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: and minimize the turbulence and minimize that coming off the back.

602
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: But also we did a lot of studying of the veins.

603
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: So one thing I should say is that when the

604
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: arrows ten yards say from the animal, it's hard to

605
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: distinguish one vein from another. But that flare up of

606
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: sound is more when it's in that last five yards

607
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 2: three yards. So again I don't think it's that important

608
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: because I think if it didn't hear something it wants

609
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: to react to when it's ten yards away, it's probably

610
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't have enough time to get out of the way.

611
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: That being said, I don't think I'll ever convince people

612
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: that sound doesn't matter. So I spent a lot of

613
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: time on it this year. We really looked at the

614
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 2: fluid flow over all these different vein designs. What was

615
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: causing the higher sound than others, And a lot of

616
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: it was just the geometry and the way that the

617
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: flow wasn't staying attached to the veins, you know, this airflow,

618
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: it was you know, separating causing these turbulence, and we

619
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: saw that show up and sound, and you know, sometimes

620
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: it's if you're very very flexible vein, some of those

621
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: would flutter and that would really amplify the sound. But

622
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: a lot of it was was geometry.

623
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: Yep, Yeah, because and I don't I think my numbers

624
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: are a little rusty. But what the speed of sound?

625
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: So my thoughts on sound, which is probably incorrect. You know,

626
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: speed of sounds a little bit over what eleven hundred

627
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: feet per second. Let's say we're shooting a three hundred

628
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: foot per second, you know arrow, so your arrow only

629
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: makes it a quarter of the way. You know, it's

630
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: a little more than a quarter, I guess. But I

631
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: think it comes down to the animal, correct, Like if

632
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,719
Speaker 1: the sound of your bow goes off will be, in

633
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: my opinion, the sound that really alerts the animal, correct,

634
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: Like the or do you think that the arrow flight

635
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: would be the sound that the animal picks up on

636
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: and they don't hear your bow go off? Yeah?

637
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: I think, Well, you can argue with how far away

638
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: the animal is, but I'd say most archery shots, yeah,

639
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: they're going to hear the bow go off. And and

640
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: you're right, the arrow's arrows, you know, ten yards down

641
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: Let's say it's just a forty yards shot. You know

642
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: your arrow's ten yards down range before he hears the bow,

643
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: because you know the time it takes for the sound

644
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: of the bow to get there. What we also saw

645
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: is that that boast is not instantaneous, but it rings.

646
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: That bon noise is ringing. So the arrows traveled ten

647
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: yards and there's still bon noise ringing and coming off

648
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: and a lot. So any short shots, say forty yards

649
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: in under, I feel like it's totally the bon noise,

650
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: either they're reacting to that or not, because it's so

651
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: much louder than the arrow noise and it rings for

652
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: you know, the arrows moved ten yards and that all

653
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 2: that ringing is coming off of it, and you know

654
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: in that that noise is just getting to the animal

655
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: when that arrow's ten yards down right, So you know,

656
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: people say, well I looked at the video and the

657
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: arrow was halfway there when the deer moved, Well, yeah,

658
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: that's really when he heard the bow go off and

659
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: had time to react to it. So I do think

660
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: the bon noise is a is a bigger factor, and

661
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: trying to quiet your bow is a good idea. I

662
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: think those you know, the long range shots are where

663
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: people might argue that all the bon noise is pretty quiet,

664
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: and then he had quite a bit, you know, maybe

665
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 2: he had a half a second to a second could

666
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: before the arrow got there, and in them argue that

667
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 2: aarrow noise matters more then, you know, and I would,

668
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: I would kind of argue that I'm not so sure

669
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: that it's aeron noise versus just what he what the

670
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: animal sees, because an animal, you know, they hear the

671
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: bon noise, they look that way and then their their

672
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: motion vision is extremely good. You know. It's there's different

673
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: studies on this that will say, like you know, Darrin Elk,

674
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: vision is all set up for movement. So if they

675
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: look that way and then they and then you're moving,

676
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: which you probably are, you know, after the shot, they

677
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 2: could might see the arrow in flight. I think a

678
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: lot of that later movement is due to a visual

679
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 2: que But you know, it's all this stuff's really hard

680
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: to prove. So you know, we spend a lot of

681
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: time figuring out how we could quiet down a vein,

682
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: and we're actually gonna come out with a new vein

683
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: probably sometime in.

684
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: August that has that same.

685
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 2: You know, has kind of equal or better accuracy stability

686
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: to that hybrid Hunter profile, but it's got jiffing geometry

687
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: on the front and back to keep that airflow attached

688
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: to the vein to make it much quieter. It's you know,

689
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 2: I think Max Stealth was our quietest you know, industry

690
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: vein out there that we tested in the first year,

691
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: and it's you know, equal or quieter than the Max Stealth,

692
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: even though it's got much better stability. So for those

693
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: that really want that quieter vein but yet still have

694
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 2: good stability, I think that'll be a good option for people.

695
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've always you know, I've just always been

696
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 1: to the camp or the thought that keep my stuff

697
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: as quiet as I can, and it's going to help it.

698
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: It's not going to make anything worse because my stuff's quieter.

699
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, I can't tell you how much it really matters.

700
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: It's just I'm going to make every effort to keep

701
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: things as quiet as I can, you know, or as possible.

702
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,439
Speaker 2: You know, some people are going with a shorter vein

703
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: to be quieter, but then they're doing all these other

704
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 2: things that make it louder. You know, some guys are

705
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: like shooting feathers and then worrying about sound. Well, feathers

706
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: are so much louder than veins and broad henad that's

707
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: kind of crazy. Or they'll go very high speed, you know,

708
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: that makes it louder. Of course it's getting there faster,

709
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: but your bow's much louder and the arrows louder. Or

710
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 2: you know, they won't worry about their tunes so much.

711
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: They'll say, well, yeah I can't if I go to mechanical,

712
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: I can shoot, but I can't shoot fixed. Well that

713
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: that'll point out they have some issue with say spine

714
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 2: or the bow's out of tune. Both of those make

715
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: the arrow much louder. If your arrow's fish tailing, it's

716
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: way down there, or you're having a bunch of flexing,

717
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: those increase drag, wind drift and sound.

718
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a.

719
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: Lot of other factors there that I don't think people

720
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: necessarily consider that they're you know, choosing the wrong direction

721
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 2: on So I just want to point that out too.

722
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing, you know, and I picked it up,

723
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: I noticed it before, but like when we used to

724
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: go to the ATA, I used to work with Martin

725
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: Archerie a little bit when they were still back in Washington.

726
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: You know, the old ATA trick. So everybody thinks you've

727
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: got the quietest new bow as you have them shooting

728
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 1: a nine hundred green arrow out of the boat. All

729
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: the test bows, you know, they don't really know how

730
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: heavy that arrow is. But it quieted everything down and

731
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: there was nothing there weren't enough limb savers, enough limb attachments,

732
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: enough whatever to compensate for just a couple hundred grains

733
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: in arroweight, you know. So there's things you can do.

734
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: You know, I don't shoot an ultra fast setup. I

735
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: shoot two eighty with typically a fairly heavy arrow that

736
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: you know, does more for noise, you know, than all

737
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: these other I don't want to call them gizmos or gimmicks,

738
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: but you know, any attachments you can add to that system,

739
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: the heavier arrow seems to do it.

740
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, I think kind of that very light, very

741
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 2: fast arrow. There's a lot of negatives there, I mean,

742
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: then the positive and it's great if you're shooting like

743
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: three D are unmarked three D archery and you got

744
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 2: a eyeball range. Yet I mean, that's really the reason

745
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 2: for having a super fast light arrow is if your

746
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 2: range is off. You know, you can still hit the

747
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 2: target being off a few yards, say, but in a

748
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: honey set up, it's not great for a number of reasons.

749
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: For one, a lighter, faster arrow, you know, you lose

750
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 2: a lot more of that velocity due to drag. You know, velocity.

751
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 2: Drag is velocity proportional to velocity squared. So a light

752
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 2: fast arrow is gonna lose more velocity, You're gonna have

753
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: less momentum at impact. Yeah, and your your bow's louder,

754
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 2: and it's more difficult to tune and things like that

755
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: as well.

756
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, all.

757
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: Right, let's move into You know, I I wish I

758
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: was more of a of a bow tuner. I'm real

759
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: kind of you know, I pay attention, but I'm kind

760
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: of hands off. What's your process for going into season,

761
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: because I'm gonna give you a real quick synopsis of

762
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: me bow hunting fifteen years ago. You'd go in, get

763
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: your bow set up, you get it all paper tuned

764
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: with your your field points, go out and shoot, and

765
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: then about two weeks before season, I'd start shooting broadheads

766
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: and my confidence would go out the window. All that

767
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: confidence I had built up all summer was gone, and

768
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: so then it was like start over, walk back, take

769
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: it into the shop, try again. Take it into the shop.

770
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: I would, I'd move my rest over, screw something up

771
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: worse than I could figure out. And it was that

772
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: was my process and then finally before season, you'd get it,

773
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: get it back. Now, you know, my system is I

774
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: don't pay per tune hardly all anymore. We kind of

775
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: just go a center shot, knock heite, get it close.

776
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: And then my new system is just shooting field points

777
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: and broadheads separately until I get them to walk together,

778
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: and then I just leave my bow alone. You know,

779
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: strings will stretch, cables will stretch over time. But what's

780
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: your opinion, like, what's the how do you get your

781
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: stuff ready? And is there a right way or wrong

782
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: way or just a way that you go about it?

783
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and my my methods have kind of evolved over

784
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: over the years. But you know, currently what I'm doing,

785
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 2: and I'll say that I I'll shoot broadheads. Broadheads will

786
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 2: be part of my tuning from you know, day one

787
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 2: pretty much, or maybe not day one, but you know,

788
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: within the first you know, a week or so, I'm

789
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: shooting some broadheads to see how they fly because, like

790
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: you said, if your target archer setup might be dialed

791
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 2: and then you throw broad heads on later and they're

792
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: not flying well. Well, to me, it's I'm I'm a

793
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: bow hunter. I mean, I do target shooting, I do

794
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: tack events three d's for fun. But it's really comes

795
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: down to I want to hit that elk or caribou

796
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: or you know this year I drew a goat tag,

797
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: or I drew a sheep tag this year, so I

798
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: want to hit that sheep, you know, for sure at range.

799
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: So really good broadhead flight is very important to me,

800
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 2: so I incorporated fairly early. But anyways, my tuning setup

801
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: is or my my method. I'd say, yeah, I'll set

802
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 2: up I'll set up center shot. I'll set up you know,

803
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 2: the arrow to go through the center of the burger

804
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 2: button roughly, I'll put a knock you know, knock points

805
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: perpendicular to that. I'll shoot through paper. And what I

806
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 2: do is, i'll have a I'll have a bear shaft

807
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: and a flat shaft just with a field points initially

808
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: in that bear shaft. It'll you know, if I already

809
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: got all that, if I got out of the arrow's bilt,

810
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: I'll cut the veins off one. Otherwise I'll just build

811
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 2: one up and I'll add some weight to it. I'll

812
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 2: use like metal duct tape, so I have to put

813
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: too much on, But you can also just put a

814
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 2: couple of wraps on. Try to get that arrow weight

815
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: total arrow weight to be about the same, and that

816
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 2: a mass difference in back will affect your dynamic spine

817
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 2: a little bit, So I like to kind of add

818
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 2: weight at the back to make them equal, and then

819
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 2: i'll uh, you know, initially, I'll shoot through paper with

820
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: the flat shaft and a bear shaft and you know,

821
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 2: make some adjustments to basically getting getting a bullet hole

822
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 2: through paper. And the reason I'll use a bear shaft

823
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: it's just easier to see when the veins aren't on it,

824
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 2: if you're getting a perfect bullet hole or not, or

825
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: if you're a little tail right up down or left.

826
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 2: Just a little easier for me to see with the

827
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: bear shaft. That's some of the reason for doing it there.

828
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: And I'm doing it like ten to twelve feet, So

829
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: I'll do that and then I'll get some shots through

830
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: the through the bow. You know, I might shoot it

831
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 2: for a week before I come back and visit it again,

832
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: and then typically I'll check again through paper if that

833
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: looks good. My next kind of my next level of

834
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: tune is shooting that flet shaft and bear shaft with

835
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: field points on. And you can start at twenty you know,

836
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: to make sure you hit the target, but I'll really

837
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 2: look at thirty yards and then and then forty yards

838
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: for kind of a finer increment. But what will happen is,

839
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: let's say your arrow's coming on your boattail left. Well,

840
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: that airflow across that left side is with no veins

841
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 2: to stabilize it back, it's just going to stay tail

842
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: left and your arrow's going to hit off to the right,

843
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: and you're if you're just shooting like a flat foam target,

844
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: you can kind of see that it just stays tail

845
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: left at impact. So your flet shaft will be say

846
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: in the bull's eye, and you're right your bear shaft,

847
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: you know, at thirty yards, say it's six inches right

848
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 2: with the with the nocktail left. Well, then you know

849
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: your boats your arrow's coming out of your bow tail left,

850
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 2: and then you can adjust do an adjustment that would

851
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 2: be adjusting your rest a little bit right. And these

852
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: are small adjustments at this point, like you know, if

853
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: you've got a micro adjust where you're just doing these

854
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: five thous clicks, you just do a few clicks and

855
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 2: check it again.

856
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: But these aren't.

857
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 2: These aren't the big, you know, big divisions on your

858
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 2: on your wrist. These are more like you know, fifteen

859
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: thous thirty thous do little little adjustments. I would also say,

860
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 2: whenever you do an adjustment, shoot three, you know, even

861
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 2: right off the bat, shoot three times and see if

862
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: it's consistent.

863
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: Because if you're.

864
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: If you're six inches right the first time and like

865
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: a foot left the next time, well, now there's some

866
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: other problem there. It could be some major issue with

867
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: your bow, or it could be your form just isn't consistent.

868
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: And if your formed is inconsistent, you know, spend some

869
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 2: more time figuring out what's going on there. Are you

870
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 2: creating a bunch of face pressure, are you torquing your bow?

871
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 2: Are you anticipating your shot? You know, have somebody observe

872
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: you shooting and see if they can help you with

873
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: your bow set up. But that's kind of my and

874
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: then I'll go out to forty yards. And this is

875
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: really how we quantified how far a bow was out

876
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,919
Speaker 2: of tune for testing these different vein heights and see

877
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: how how well they stabilize a broadhead. What I found

878
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: is that forty yards, if you're if your bear shaft

879
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 2: hits within four inches of flat shaft, you're good to go.

880
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: And you know, at thirty yards that would be saying

881
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: like two to three inches. If your bear shaft is

882
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: hitting two to three inches from your flat shaft, that's

883
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: good enough.

884
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: You don't need to be perfect.

885
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 2: If you're you know, at forty yards with with it

886
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 2: eight to twelve inches, right, I consider that pretty far

887
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: out of tune. But what we saw is with the

888
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: you know, the best veins like the hybrid Hunter vein,

889
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: your broadheads and field points are still going to hit

890
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: within an inch or so. Just stabilize it so quickly

891
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 2: in a will. But that's how I quantify how auto

892
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 2: tune it is. And that's what I'll say if we

893
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: ever have a customer, you know, struggling to get brought

894
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 2: into shoot, well for him, typically I'll just will figure

895
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 2: out if you spine properly or not, and if his

896
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: bow is you know, relative what vans he has on

897
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 2: the back is aarow fairly stable and then is his

898
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: bow just relatively well tuned, And we'll have him do

899
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 2: that bear shaft floodshaft at thirty to quantify that. But

900
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: that's kind of my my process anyway. And I would

901
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 2: one last thing I'll add is that I don't do

902
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 2: it once and then never look at it again. I'll

903
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: and that's a good reason to just keep that bear

904
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: shaft because you can then you know, shoot that, you know,

905
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 2: you know, every couple of weeks or once a month

906
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 2: maybe at that thirty yard target and see if it's

907
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: still consistent. That that to me gives me a lot

908
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: of confidence before I head it out. See, I just

909
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 2: got done with the hunt. I'm going on another one.

910
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: Shoot bear shaft, flotshaft at thirty and forty. If they're

911
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: still hitting together, I know, nothing really changed much on

912
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 2: the bow, and I'm still I'm still dial I'm still

913
00:45:59,320 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 2: tuned in.

914
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great, great point there. It's okay, So

915
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: we got through tuning you know arrow, you know, veins

916
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: everything that matters. Now you know, I'm gonna move to broadheads.

917
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I maybe stress out

918
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 1: a lot is, you know, I got got new six

919
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: iron wheels. You know, I put five on and I

920
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: put them my quiver and I kind of go through

921
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: them like I like this arrow the best. I like

922
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: that one second, you know, I number them all, go through,

923
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: shoot them and like this one just give me the

924
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: most confidence, and then I'll shoot that one or to

925
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 1: the number two arrow quite a bit? What in your opinion?

926
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 1: You know what the steel you're using, and the temper

927
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: and and everything we've got on them, and the hardening,

928
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: like how often should you have to sharpen after a target?

929
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: Do you have to sharpen? And if so, kind of

930
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: how you recommend it. I'm gonna I'm gonna talk I

931
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: blame myself last year, and I message you a little

932
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 1: bit after that hunt on this and hopefully you don't

933
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: mind talking about it. But I'm blaming myself on a

934
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 1: blood trail I had last year. But first I'm gonna

935
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: let you kind of go over sharpening, you know, and

936
00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: going through the target.

937
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this will vary a lot by broadhead and

938
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 2: steel used, and you know how sharp they start, but

939
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 2: sharpness matters a lot, you know, and all the broadhead

940
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: development work, I'd say that, you know, I was really

941
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: going after durability initially like I wanted to get through

942
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: that elk shoulder blade and you know, not damage a blade.

943
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: But what I realized pretty quickly is having a very

944
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: good sharpness and retaining that sharpness is really what gets

945
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: you that max penetration through an animal, keeping that force

946
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: load to penetrate. So I think it's very important to

947
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 2: shoot sharp broadheads. So first off, i'd say, whatever broadheads

948
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: you use, make sure they're they're sharp, because there's a

949
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 2: lot of them, especially you know, one piece solid three

950
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: blades that just aren't very sharp in some of them.

951
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 2: Some of them they let you know that, but there's

952
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 2: a lot of them that are just have a milled finish,

953
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: so they're just machining with a you know, a milk

954
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 2: a cutter and putting that edge on with no grinding

955
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: at all, and so they're not they're not what I

956
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: consider a sharp edge. If you have those, they want

957
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 2: to use them, you know, spend the time time to

958
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 2: learn how to sharpen them, because I think I think

959
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: a broadhead blade, you know, it should be able to

960
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 2: shave hair or if you don't want to, you know, accidentally,

961
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: if you don't want to risk cutting your arm, you know,

962
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: take a piece of paper and just hold it up

963
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: and just see if you can easily cut into that

964
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 2: edge of paper or is it tearing. That's another good

965
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 2: test for sharpness. What I would say with you know,

966
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 2: we use an a two tool steel and we use

967
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: this you know, crygentic treatment triple temper, so we can

968
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: get the hardness way up there at sixty rock we'll

969
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: see hardness. So with that we can get it very

970
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: sharp and it retains the edge well. So what I

971
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: found is, and what I say is if you shot

972
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: five times or less into foam, what I found is

973
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 2: I can't measure a difference in sharpness. I would still

974
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,439
Speaker 2: check it. I would still try and cut that piece

975
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: of paper or you know, shave a little hair on

976
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 2: your arm, make sure it's still shaving hair. If it is,

977
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 2: you know, put it in your quip and go ahead

978
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 2: and use it. I can tell you that most broadhead

979
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: blades are you know, four to twenty ninety or ninety

980
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 2: five percent of them using four to twenty aintless and

981
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: it just doesn't retain the edge. So one shot in

982
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: a target, you're typically not sharp anymore. And that's just

983
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 2: that's just be a practice head. But that's yeah, that's

984
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 2: what I would say about that. But for sure, check

985
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 2: your broad heads and you know, if if you want

986
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 2: to take one head, I do think it's important. What

987
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: I like to do is take one head and maybe

988
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 2: it'll be my practice head and put it on every

989
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: arrow that's going to my quiver and shoot it at

990
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: you know, moderately long range and make sure it hits well,

991
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: just to make sure there's not some issue with that

992
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: arrow with spine or straightness, you know near you know,

993
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 2: I think you mentioned straightness, the one thou versus three

994
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 2: thousd straightness. It doesn't matter very much, I don't think

995
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 2: unless it's all at say the knock, and if you've

996
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 2: got like one little bend at the end that can

997
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 2: make that arrow, you know, flex differently, shoot differently. So

998
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 2: I like to shoot every arrow that's going in my

999
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 2: quiver with a broad head, but it might just be

1000
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 2: my practice head and then I and then I just

1001
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 2: screw on a new one to make sure it's sharp.

1002
00:49:58,160 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 2: So that's that's a good way to go too.

1003
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I always get nervous and I probably overthink everything.

1004
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: But it's like, man, if I unscrew this screw one

1005
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: on and then put my other one back on, like

1006
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: if I don't get everything just right, like, am I

1007
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: going to create an issue in they're somewhere? And I

1008
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 1: know it's probably overthinking, but that's one of my issues

1009
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: where I should just you know, dedicate, you know, whether

1010
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 1: I put black sharpie on him or something, just designate

1011
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: him as practice heads. That's something I might be doing.

1012
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: But I messaged you last and hopefully you don't mind

1013
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: talking about this. It's just real world results. And I

1014
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: do blame myself on this one a little bit. I

1015
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: had shot my number one head probably or my number

1016
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 1: one arrow probably more than I should have, you know,

1017
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: forty fifty times to the target, and I always was

1018
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: kind of doing the thumb flick, you know, off of it.

1019
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: Can you hear kind of the snap like you know,

1020
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: anybody's been around blades long enough usually if you get

1021
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: that like sharp crisp, you know, noise off of it,

1022
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: You're like, it's still pretty sharp, you know, it hasn't

1023
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: rolled an edge, And so I elected to hunt with it.

1024
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: And I hit a bowl at forty yards good in

1025
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: the pocket and every iron will that I've hit an

1026
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: animal on like blood everywhere instantly, like had great blood

1027
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: and on that one, I picked up blood, but not

1028
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: until one hundred yards away, and then it didn't bleed

1029
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: a lot, but it did sprint to its death. Like

1030
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: I'll give the broadhead credit that the elk died really well,

1031
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: but there was you know, I reached out to you

1032
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: just we found the bowl. Everything was good, but it

1033
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: was definitely a different blood till than I had before.

1034
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: And then I started to like blame myself, like you dummy,

1035
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: you shouldn't you know, usually it was five or ten

1036
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: shots and this time you went thirty forty fifty shots

1037
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 1: without you know, touching it up, you know. And yeah,

1038
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: like I said, I probably overanalyzed how sharp it needs

1039
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: to be. But that was the one time I'm like,

1040
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: all right, we need to start paying more attention to

1041
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: how sharp your broadhead is, just because that flesh wound,

1042
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 1: that surface is what's going to give you that first blood.

1043
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 1: And I had a great pastor like right in the pocket,

1044
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: and just I didn't get a lot of blood. And

1045
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, everything, all my experience shows I should

1046
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: have got great blood there and didn't. Was it a

1047
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: dull broadhead? And is that my fault?

1048
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1049
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 2: I think I think that has a lot to do

1050
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 2: with it what I've seen. You know, there's a sharp

1051
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 2: broadhead gives you two things that are important. It gives

1052
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: you that low force to penetrate, so it increases penetration,

1053
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: but it also slices all the tissue going all the

1054
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 2: way through. And you know, uh, Cody Greenwood trad Lab

1055
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 2: was doing some experimenting and where he was shooting through

1056
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 2: animals with different broadheads and then cut and then measuring

1057
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 2: like the the total lacerations, and and he said that

1058
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 2: every ironwell broadhead he shot, you get a full with

1059
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 2: cut with it, whereas a lot of other broadheads they're

1060
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,919
Speaker 2: pushing a lot of tissue aside. Say a three blade

1061
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 2: that's not very sharp might only have like an arrow

1062
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 2: sized hole through liver or lungs. It tears a hole through,

1063
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 2: but it pushes a lot of tissue aside and doesn't

1064
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: slice it. And I think you know a lot of

1065
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 2: the bleeding. You know, animals for the most part are

1066
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 2: dying by by bleeding. I mean their lungskin collapse too.

1067
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 2: But a lot of that a lot of has blood flow.

1068
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: So you want to slice everything every little artery there

1069
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 2: a lot of times that's the difference between getting ANTM

1070
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 2: and not is slicing that artery, especially like you know,

1071
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 2: through the liver, say you can have you can shoot

1072
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 2: a liver in two different spots, and whether you cut

1073
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,919
Speaker 2: an artery can mean it's it's dead in seconds or

1074
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 2: it's not dead for hours. So you know, cutting every

1075
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 2: every artery all the way through, you're gonna get more bleeding,

1076
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 2: better blood trails. So I'd say that's that's probably a

1077
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 2: pretty big factor. I mean, you can sometimes hitting up

1078
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 2: into the shoulder, up into the muscle, you know, if

1079
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 2: their leg was forward when you shot and then it

1080
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 2: came back. You know, sometimes there's you know muscle or

1081
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 2: you know, layers of muscle that might cover up a

1082
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 2: hole and make a blood trail not as good, you know.

1083
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: I you know, I could say, like a high lung shot,

1084
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 2: that can happen too, like the lungs are gonna collapse

1085
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 2: and then bleed. But if the holes are up high,

1086
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 2: blood coming out of there has got to go around

1087
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 2: the sides. You know, that can be potentially I'm not

1088
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 2: as good a blood trail. But you know, have that

1089
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 2: sharp broadhead gives you the best chance of slicing everything

1090
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 2: and giving you the best amount of bleeding possible.

1091
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and tighten that pocket.

1092
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 2: You know.

1093
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: I was trying to make excuses or try to figure

1094
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 1: it out, and I'm like, well, maybe it was so

1095
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 1: tight to the pocket that it was bleed in the

1096
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: pocket and then it would run down the leg, you know,

1097
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: and that's why we weren't getting anything to the ground,

1098
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: you know, outside of where it was. So, yeah, it's

1099
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: just one of those things where in from here on out,

1100
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: everything's going to be razor sharp. I'll just get my

1101
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: flat stone out, you know, make sure that everything is

1102
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 1: touched up and sharp, and we won't won't want that

1103
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: at least it won't let the sharpness be the reason

1104
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: from here on out.

1105
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, we do have wide We do have Wide

1106
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: series broad hits too. It's not I don't trying to

1107
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 2: recommend him as the number one head for you know,

1108
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,399
Speaker 2: long range out west, big game when you might have

1109
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: a sixty eighty yard shot, you know whatever, whatever is

1110
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 2: your effective shooting range. I kind of like our our

1111
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 2: S series or our single Babble for those that are

1112
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 2: relatively a little bit more compact, but our wide heads,

1113
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 2: A lot of guys are using those for ELK too.

1114
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 2: They make they make big holes. And now we just

1115
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 2: came out with a wide single bevels as well, in

1116
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty five grain, you know, one fifty

1117
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 2: grain on up, and you know that is a wider cut.

1118
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: It's two and eighth in is total cut inch of three.

1119
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 2: It's main blade three quarter bleeder and our bleeders have

1120
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 2: a single bubble grind on them too.

1121
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: So what that what.

1122
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,240
Speaker 2: Happens with that is there's this rotation through the animal

1123
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,280
Speaker 2: that really opens up those holes quite a bit, creates

1124
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,959
Speaker 2: a lot of trauma. So yeah, we just launched those

1125
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 2: a week or so ago. And for guys that want

1126
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,720
Speaker 2: to have you know, bigger holes, quick kills, more blood

1127
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 2: on the ground, you know, that's a great option too.

1128
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 2: I often carry a mixed quiver or a few of

1129
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 2: our S series or single bevel standard single bubbles, and

1130
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 2: then a few of our are wide or wide single

1131
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: bebbls And depending on what the shot is, if I'm

1132
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,760
Speaker 2: if I'm melk cutting over water for the afternoon evening,

1133
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 2: I'll throw a widing because I've shot out with them.

1134
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: They penetrate great, They're just less forgiving on those longer

1135
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: range shots. But again with a very stable arrow. You

1136
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 2: know a friend Dan stat in elk shape. He likes

1137
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 2: the wise even the wide solid blade, but he's got

1138
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 2: a very stable arrow set up and he shoots him

1139
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 2: well to eighty yards. So that's an option too for

1140
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 2: getting that bigger hole and more blood on the ground.

1141
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just brought up a point I'm curious on,

1142
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, with you know, just the engineering and me

1143
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: thinking out loud, and you might be able to say

1144
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 1: why it isn't does a single bevel with that rotation

1145
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: through through bone, through you know, soft tissue. Does that?

1146
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 1: Have you found that the single bebel doesn't penetrate as well?

1147
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 3: Is it?

1148
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: Is it double bevel or is it negligible?

1149
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems to be negligible. I mean that was

1150
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 2: my thinking as well. You know, as an engineer, I'm thinking,

1151
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 2: you know, slicing straight through has got to be less

1152
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 2: energy required than you know, that pressure on those two

1153
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 2: babbles creating that torque and rotating through. But what is

1154
00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 2: also happening is the arrow's rotating that direction already at pack,

1155
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: so there's some there's some rotational momentum there as well.

1156
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 2: So and and the single bubble isn't trying to make

1157
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 2: it rotate faster than that. So what I've seen in

1158
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 2: practical testing, man, I've had a heart.

1159
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: You know.

1160
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 2: I actually made single bubbels to try and prove that

1161
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 2: they weren't as good as double bubbles, but I really struggled.

1162
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 2: I mean, they they penetrate really well, and in the

1163
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 2: high speed video we've done, it just seems like that

1164
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: rotational you know, that rotation just keeps going through the animal,

1165
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem to really slow the arrow down

1166
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 2: anymore than the double bubble.

1167
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 3: Gotcha.

1168
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect, that's good to know. So you mentioned you

1169
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 1: got some new new broadheads coming out, anything else coming

1170
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: out or anything else that the listeners should know about,

1171
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: you know, choosing the broadhead this year? Arrow setup or

1172
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: vein set up to help mount this year is you know,

1173
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: seasons only a couple of months away.

1174
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: Well, something new from probably the last podcast we had

1175
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 2: is that from that aero study the first year I

1176
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 2: decided and and just seeing how well how much more

1177
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 2: accurate an arrow can be that's very stable. You know,

1178
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 2: we started doing the custom errow builds. I work with

1179
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 2: Easton to get their axis and match Greade access arrows

1180
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 2: and we fletch them at about three degree vehicle with

1181
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 2: that hybrid hunter vein. We started selling that vein as well.

1182
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 2: And for people that want, you know, don't want to

1183
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 2: build their own arrows, just want to have them built

1184
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 2: and know that they're done well. What I have is

1185
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 2: basically a machinist and a machining center, very accurately cutting

1186
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 2: and then facing both ends. I feel like that knock

1187
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: in is really important. It doesn't get enough attention. And

1188
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 2: that little squaring tool people often use and just do

1189
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 2: a couple of rotations, it doesn't do much to make

1190
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 2: that very square. So anyway, we do custom aerill builds now,

1191
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 2: you know, just for your length and work with you

1192
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 2: to make sure that the spine is proper for you.

1193
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 2: So that's kind of new. We're gonna, you know, continue

1194
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 2: to build on that. Yeah, we do some ultra light

1195
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 2: hunting knives. We just added our we called our K

1196
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 2: three boning knife ultra light boning knife. It's like about

1197
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 2: a five inch looks like a file a knife, a

1198
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 2: little bit stiffer, but it's a great boning knife for

1199
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 2: people that you know, like a little bit longer blade

1200
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 2: to take the say the hind quarters off off an elk.

1201
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 2: Things like that. So yeah, that's what's new currently. I've

1202
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 2: always got some prototype you know, broadheads in the works.

1203
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 2: I talked to you a bit about that one offline.

1204
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 2: Maybe some more things to test, but yeah, we'll have

1205
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 2: a new a new vein here and in August from

1206
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 2: this study that I think, well, yeah, people will like it.

1207
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 2: It's going to have low drag, low wind drift, low sound,

1208
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 2: but yet great stability.

1209
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 1: So it should be a great one perfect perfect. Well,

1210
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: how can everybody out there that doesn't already know about

1211
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: iron Will find you?

1212
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, our website is Ironwelloutfitters dot com. We're on Instagram

1213
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 2: at Ironwill Outfitters Facebook and yeah YouTube as well at

1214
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: iron Well Offaters. We'll put I should mention those we're

1215
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 2: putting out some kind of white papers from that study

1216
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: from the university study on our website. So if you

1217
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 2: go to our website, I think it's under it's the

1218
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 2: far right, you know drop down menu. I think it's

1219
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 2: bow hunter block where we're gonna post papers from that study.

1220
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 2: So if you really want to geek out on there's

1221
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 2: one showing the arrow arrow. It's one on arrow height,

1222
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 2: our vain height instability and then you know vain shape,

1223
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 2: and we'll just keep posting them on there as we

1224
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 2: as we bring them up for you know, I love

1225
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 2: applying good mechanical engineering and science to becoming better bow hunters.

1226
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 2: So it's it's a it's something that I want to

1227
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 2: continue doing, and you know, trying to make people is

1228
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 2: reliable as science.

1229
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: Allows, perfect perfect. We appreciate all your all your hard

1230
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: hard work and research there Bill and helping us as

1231
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: bow hunters. You kind of figure all this out, so

1232
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: I appreciate having you on the on the show and

1233
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 1: good luck this fall.

1234
01:00:53,960 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Jason, you too,