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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Sunday, March fifth, Happy Easter

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Speaker 2: and happy passover.

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Speaker 3: Happy anything you are celebrating.

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Speaker 2: And if you're not celebrating and just enjoying some chocolate,

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Speaker 2: that is totally aoka too.

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Speaker 3: We hope you had a beautiful weekend.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with my mates Courtney Armstrong, who's

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Speaker 2: she's through the finish line of lent about to have

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Speaker 2: some cocktails in shees if she hasn't already, And of

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Speaker 2: course body move in. And we have producer Taha and

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Speaker 2: Sam and Adam in the control room.

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Speaker 4: As always, So happy holiday is everyone.

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: We have a stack night of headlines tonight. We're unpacking

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Speaker 2: the unique Norwegian tradition that blends Easter with all things

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Speaker 2: true crime right up our alley and also exonery and

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Speaker 2: activist Amanda Knox joins us to discuss her new project

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Speaker 2: about Lucy let Be. Do you guys have not been

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Speaker 2: following that infamous case. It's a fascinating one. Plus, lawyer

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Speaker 2: and independent journalist Aaron Parnis joins us. He's huge on

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Speaker 2: social media, he's an independent journalist and also seems to

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Speaker 2: know everything there is to know about the Epstein files

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Speaker 2: and surveillance and so so much more so he will

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Speaker 2: be joining us as well.

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Speaker 3: So let's go to Norway. First, Courtney, how are you

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Speaker 3: doing with Lent? I'm glad it's over. I'm thrilled it's over.

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Speaker 5: Actually, I had debated, no kidding, I got the ingredients

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Speaker 5: for a cheese plate yesterday and I debated, like setting

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Speaker 5: a midnight timer.

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Speaker 6: To have it?

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Speaker 5: Why not do that?

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, so, if case you're not aware,

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong gave up booze and cheese for the entire

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Speaker 2: month of Lent, or the entire stretch of Lent, I

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Speaker 2: should say.

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Speaker 3: So, today's a big.

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Speaker 2: Day, court Hopefully you're feeling well and she schneckered beyond

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Speaker 2: and how happy Easter?

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Speaker 7: Do you?

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Speaker 3: Thank you?

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Speaker 8: Thank you.

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Speaker 9: I'm dying to know, though, Courtney, what's your first cheese

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Speaker 9: that you're going to bite into?

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Speaker 3: What kind? Oh? It happened already.

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Speaker 5: It happened early for breakfast extra sharp cheddar, thank you

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Speaker 5: very much, and a little mancheco.

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Speaker 3: Good for you.

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Speaker 9: Okay, but no out call just yet, because I know

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Speaker 9: we have the show, so I'm assuming, but no judgment.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and then yes after the show. So at nine

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Speaker 5: oh one my time, I will be having an old

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Speaker 5: fashioned love.

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Speaker 3: That's good.

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Speaker 4: Happy holidays everybody. So yet Norwegian traditions seemed to be.

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Speaker 3: Right up our alley.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I had never heard of this, and I think

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Speaker 5: it sounds so cool. I wish we could adopt it here.

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Speaker 5: So for Easter time, Norwegians they're retreating to their cat

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Speaker 5: and they are binging crime fiction. It's an annual surge

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Speaker 5: in this century old tradition of pakis grim. It literally

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Speaker 5: means easter crime. Had you ever heard of this?

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Speaker 8: No?

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Speaker 3: I had no idea.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So all the way back in nineteen twenty three,

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Speaker 5: pakiskrim originated.

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Speaker 3: There was a best selling Norwegian novel.

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Speaker 5: It's called the Bergen Train was looted last night and

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Speaker 5: they're brilliant. Marketing in a newspaper led readers to believe

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Speaker 5: that the strain robbery actually occurred, and since that time,

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Speaker 5: one hundred and twenty plus years ago, people have been

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Speaker 5: reading and watching crime stories over Easter, and it's a

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Speaker 5: Norwegian cultural ritual and it's paired with winter sports, chocolate

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Speaker 5: and family time and remote cabins.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like the greatest holiday plan, despite whatever holiday

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Speaker 2: that should be, it's right up our ally.

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Speaker 5: It honestly, it sounds like the setting for like a

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Speaker 5: Hallmark movie. Everyone's in their cabins, they're.

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Speaker 2: Reading their cozy vocal matching socks hats and listen. It's

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Speaker 2: interesting also that they also have the lowest crime rate,

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Speaker 2: so on the one hand, it's something that's built into

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Speaker 2: their tradition, and on the other they are a place

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Speaker 2: that is considered not only very happy, but very balanced

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Speaker 2: and also very free of crime.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 5: And another thing I wish could be adopted in our

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Speaker 5: culture is Norway's Easter holidays.

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Speaker 3: They can often last up to ten days. Wow.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, families and friends, it's ample time to catch

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Speaker 5: up with each other and watch crime fiction and cabins.

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Speaker 9: Lots of candy, lots of chocolate for ten days. Maybe

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Speaker 9: too much, but that's good.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 5: So anyway, that is what's going on in Norway, and

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Speaker 5: it's a really it's such a big deal leading up

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Speaker 5: libraries and bookstores. They feature crime novels during Easter and

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Speaker 5: this is a riot to me. Sometimes they'll have decorations

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Speaker 5: like chalk outlines or easter checks holding bloody knives.

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Speaker 3: You are kidding me right now, So that is interesting

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Speaker 3: to me. What do you make of that? What do

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Speaker 3: you make Is there a.

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Speaker 2: Connection between the fact that it's a happy, crimeless place

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Speaker 2: yet this is sort of part of the indoctrination.

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Speaker 5: I mean maybe it could be, like your guess is

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Speaker 5: definitely as good as mine. I just I adore the

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Speaker 5: fact that they have taken this and made it ritual,

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Speaker 5: something that happened over Hutch twenty years ago.

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Speaker 4: So too, Yeah, I too.

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Speaker 2: It's also a place where they have like real gender

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Speaker 2: equality even in their problems. They forty percent of each

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Speaker 2: gender must be represented. So they really believe in work

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Speaker 2: life balance, and.

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Speaker 3: It seems to be a real, real happy place to be.

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Speaker 9: To your point, Stephanie, I wonder if because it's such

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Speaker 9: a low crime rate that maybe that leads into part

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Speaker 9: of the fantasy there for them, like ooh, this whole

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Speaker 9: crime scene, like it's something that they don't experience and see,

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Speaker 9: so it makes it even that much more exciting.

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Speaker 3: No, I think it's the opposite.

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Speaker 2: I think they're watching all these crime shows that they

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Speaker 2: don't have crime because they know what to look out for.

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Speaker 2: They've unpacked it, they know what to do. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: they know the gist. They're learning along the way.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, no, I met the holiday.

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Speaker 9: I think that's why the holiday is such an exciting

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Speaker 9: moment for them, because they have something we don't experience so.

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Speaker 5: Natly exactly another thing, and this really brought me back

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Speaker 5: to I don't know if you guys before phones and

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Speaker 5: computers and all that breakfast time, sitting at the table.

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Speaker 3: I would read just the cereal box, the milk. Whatever.

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Speaker 3: Did you guys do that? Of course?

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Speaker 4: I yeah.

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Speaker 2: We had our local paper that you would basically read

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Speaker 2: from back to back. In my case, it was like

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Speaker 2: Newsday was the Long Island local newspaper and it had

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Speaker 2: like a kid section in the back.

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Speaker 9: Huh.

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Speaker 5: Well, for the past thirty years, Norwegian crime writer is

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Speaker 5: picked along with an illustrator. So they're selected and they

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Speaker 5: create cartoon detective mysteries and it plays out across Norway's

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Speaker 5: milk cartons. What and right, And so nine to ten

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Speaker 5: million crime cartoon milk cartons are printed, and it's actually

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Speaker 5: the nation's most read crime story every year.

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Speaker 2: You're a kidding, I wonder if that has sort of

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Speaker 2: a little bit of a choose your own adventure element

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Speaker 2: to it, because that would be genius.

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Speaker 3: Talk about like the community play along.

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Speaker 2: Right, So you're you're all reading the same I would

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Speaker 2: say water cooler, but it's more I guess milk cooler.

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Speaker 3: And you know, it's sort of perfect. That's great.

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Speaker 9: And when you first started talking about it, I naturally

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Speaker 9: assumed it was going to be some sort of mystery

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Speaker 9: with like a missing person on the back, tying in

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Speaker 9: with the was it eaton paints the little boy who

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Speaker 9: was on the back of the milk carton? So I

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Speaker 9: thought there was going to be sort of a tie

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Speaker 9: in with that. But that's I like it on the

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Speaker 9: milk carton. Any kind of mystery there.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And this year's crime writer, his name is I'm

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Speaker 5: gonna butcher it, but Gunner Stallison, he says, I know

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Speaker 5: who did it. Of course, my whole family will be

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Speaker 5: sitting around the table ready to solve my story.

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Speaker 3: I'll be watching them.

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Speaker 5: It's not that hard to solve and the children will

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Speaker 5: probably get it first, which I think is true in

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Speaker 5: most things.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a funny thing.

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Speaker 2: It's the kitchen table part of it, right, we all

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Speaker 2: take that very serious here obviously, Kati Studios.

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Speaker 4: You know, kitchen table is sort of at the heart

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Speaker 4: of even.

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Speaker 2: This show, you know, is really that, And again we

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Speaker 2: don't really do that quite as much. Do you guys

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Speaker 2: all sit around the kitchen table every night as a family?

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Speaker 3: No, I don't. I should be embarrassed.

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Speaker 5: I'm not.

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Speaker 3: We just we just don't. And schedules are.

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Speaker 2: Always, you know, on top of each other, and it's

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Speaker 2: almost like here we're not really set up for that sometimes.

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Speaker 9: Which we need more of. I mean I do when

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Speaker 9: I'm with my family, like in the South, I do

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Speaker 9: it because I'm so far away.

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Speaker 3: But we try to do it.

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Speaker 9: But even then, sometimes it tends to be like everyone

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Speaker 9: kind of sits on a couch and in front of

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Speaker 9: a television. It doesn't have that same I miss that

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Speaker 9: whole feeling of everyone's sitting around a table talking.

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Speaker 2: I bet either that's coming back. My prediction is easier

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Speaker 2: days ahead. I think truth is coming, I think love

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Speaker 2: is coming. I think more nectiveness is coming and let's

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Speaker 2: let it start today.

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Speaker 9: You know, I think you're onto something. I used to

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Speaker 9: work on house Hunters and there was an uptick in

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Speaker 9: people who wanted separate dining rooms. They didn't want the

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Speaker 9: open kitchens anymore, so they wanted a formal seating space.

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Speaker 9: So it makes me think more people are trying to

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Speaker 9: gravitate towards that let's sit and family time.

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Speaker 3: How interesting.

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Speaker 2: I was just noticing that's a very Nashville thing, is

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Speaker 2: a separate dining It's beautiful because you really do. It's

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Speaker 2: like the best restaurant in town really is your house.

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Speaker 2: That's it agreed, no matter what the house you know,

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Speaker 2: So whod for thought?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that could be a slogan, the best around the

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Speaker 5: restaurant in town is your house.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Listen, if you're just joining us, this is true crime tonight.

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Speaker 3: We're on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 5: I am Courtney Armstrong, so happy on the Sunday to

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Speaker 5: here with my buddy Body move in and Stephanie Leidecker

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Speaker 5: and producer Taha and of course in the studio Adam

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Speaker 5: and Sam ready to take your calls. We have been

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Speaker 5: talking about the Norwegian they celebrate crime over Easter, But

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Speaker 5: really it seems like a way to just be cozy

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Speaker 5: with each other. We always want to hear your thoughts,

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Speaker 5: so you can hit us up on the talkbacks on

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Speaker 5: the iHeartRadio app. But Househunters, that show has run forever.

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Speaker 5: What do people need to know about house Hunters?

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Speaker 8: Oh?

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Speaker 9: Oh, then is a good one. Yeah, it's well over

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Speaker 9: twenty years because I know when I was there they

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Speaker 9: had like a twenty year anniversary kind of a moment.

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Speaker 9: What do they need to know that I won't get

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Speaker 9: in trouble for revealing too much. I can probably say

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Speaker 9: this safely because it's been reported. You know, people have

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Speaker 9: actually narrowed down to which house, so it's not a

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Speaker 9: complete secret. But the truth is, and I will explain

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Speaker 9: this part. I think we really do have them look

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Speaker 9: at homes that they were looking at or had considered.

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Speaker 9: So one of the three in the mix is actually

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Speaker 9: a home they had considered in Seene. But for production reasons,

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Speaker 9: it's almost impossible to really follow someone through the entire process.

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Speaker 4: Very unsurprised by that. They acting is terrible, you know, it's.

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Speaker 2: Like everybody, Oh, this is a lot to think about.

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Speaker 2: There's going to be a commute but look at the backyard,

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Speaker 2: you know seem but it's so addictive. It's like the

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Speaker 2: greatest show on television. I feel like I've seen every

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Speaker 2: possible episode known to Matt.

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Speaker 4: There love many version.

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Speaker 9: Oh, the European is one of my favorites. I think

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Speaker 9: I'd shared this with one of you once. We were

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Speaker 9: doing a lot of international ones, like the production company

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Speaker 9: I worked with did both domestic and international, but there

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Speaker 9: was a point where switched to just domestic. But one

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Speaker 9: of the most fascinating ones we did. We did an

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Speaker 9: episode in various countries, but we did one in Tel

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Speaker 9: Aviv where people had to go look at their bomb shelters,

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Speaker 9: and that I found super fascinating. Every country had something

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Speaker 9: really unique and different that I would never have thought about.

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Speaker 3: Wow, And it's funny.

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Speaker 2: It is so true because we're trying to do apple

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Speaker 2: to apples in our own worlds and you get a

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Speaker 2: little sight seeing. You get to just see how our

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Speaker 2: fellowmen and women are living across the world.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's perfect. I'm mad we don't make it.

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Speaker 6: I know.

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Speaker 9: I'm depressed though, whenever I still to this day look

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Speaker 9: at the show and watch it, I'm depressed at how

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Speaker 9: much you get in other states than the California. It's

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Speaker 9: just ridiculous, Like you can get like a broom closet

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Speaker 9: in California for the same price as a mansion in

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Speaker 9: other states.

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Speaker 4: True.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, interesting, Well was there anything great? I talked about

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Speaker 5: my day? Did you guys do anything wonderful this Sunday

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Speaker 5: or this weekend? In general?

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Speaker 2: We traveled to see some friends and we got to

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Speaker 2: see our great.

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Speaker 3: Capital in our great nation in DC and.

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Speaker 2: Really just had a wonderful time with friends. And I'm

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Speaker 2: scavenging through candy still as we speak.

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Speaker 9: I got together with friends and we did like an

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Speaker 9: Easter brunch. So it was a group of gay friends

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Speaker 9: and brunch, so that's synonymous obviously always a time. But

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Speaker 9: we went to a hotel on Sunset. It's the mandri On.

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Speaker 9: They have a beautiful, gorgeous Oh that's right, you know, right, that's.

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Speaker 2: Like very famous from Sex and the City back in

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Speaker 2: the day for anyone who hasn't been.

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Speaker 9: That's exactly it. They have a beautiful restaurant that overlooks

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Speaker 9: the California and all the Los Angeles hills and everything.

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Speaker 9: So we had a nice outdoor brunch and one friend

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Speaker 9: brought his mom along, so she was like the star

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Speaker 9: of the brunch.

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Speaker 8: So it was great.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I love it. I will say this, even just

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Speaker 3: being in DC too.

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Speaker 2: It's just a reminder again to anyone who's missing a

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Speaker 2: family member throughout these holiday seasons, or whether you celebrate

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Speaker 2: a holiday or not, or participate in a specific religion

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Speaker 2: or not, or just like a little candy sometimes I

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Speaker 2: could also make you miss people. So we're thinking of

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Speaker 2: you if you are, and for our servicemen and women,

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Speaker 2: of course, we are so thinking of you as well

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Speaker 2: and sending you our love. And again, a lot of

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Speaker 2: such prefice out there. So if there's a if there's

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Speaker 2: a seat missing at the.

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Speaker 3: Table, you know, we hear you. Yeah, that is the truth.

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Speaker 3: I gotta say.

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Speaker 5: I am so excited that we're having Actually we're gonna

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Speaker 5: hear Amanda Knox and Aaron Parnis tonight.

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Speaker 3: Same my favorite.

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Speaker 9: What's your big question for Let's start with Amanda. What's

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Speaker 9: a big one you think you might have for Amanda?

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Speaker 8: Either of you?

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Speaker 3: No brainer, Amanda, why would you go back to Italy?

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Speaker 9: Good one?

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Speaker 3: That's good. Okay, that's a great one.

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Speaker 5: I am a little bit obsessed with the Lucy let

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Speaker 5: Be case which she's doing a podcast about.

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Speaker 3: It's called Doubt, and we'll get into that because.

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Speaker 5: I'm feeling pretty strongly one way, and I'll be curious

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Speaker 5: to hear. I think we're going to hear a little

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Speaker 5: bit more about the other perspective and more information is

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Speaker 5: wiser decisions, you know, So I'll be curious. But speaking

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Speaker 5: of coming up after the break, Amanda Knox joins, we're

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Speaker 5: going to talk about it's a pretty controversial conviction of

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Speaker 5: a British nurse, Lucy let Bee, and some experts are

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Speaker 5: now saying the evidence in that case deserves another look. Later,

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Speaker 5: we have one of the most followed voices in digital news,

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Speaker 5: Aaron Parnas. He is smart, he is measured, and we're

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Speaker 5: really thrilled that he'll be joining us with his thoughts

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Speaker 5: on the Epstein Files.

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Speaker 3: We will be right back.

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Speaker 5: Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in and back by popular demands,

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Speaker 2: we have Amanda Knox, who we've gotten so much amazing.

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Speaker 4: Amazing feedback of that. We're so glad you're here.

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Speaker 2: Number one, You're doing a lot right now, come, I

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Speaker 2: don entrepreneur, journalist, writer, podcaster, and also, you know, really

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Speaker 2: cracking into a major case.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this Lucy let Be case is no joke.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't even know where to begin, but

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad to see.

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Speaker 3: You first and foremost. Yeah, thanks, thanks so much.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, this case is one that has been on my

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Speaker 7: radar for a long time. It's actually a long time coming,

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Speaker 7: and it's a case that found me. I was not

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Speaker 7: looking for Lucy let Be. Lucy let Be found me,

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Speaker 7: and it was primarily from people who were in Britain

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Speaker 7: as this case was unfolding, especially as it was unfolding

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Speaker 7: in the tabloid headlines. And what caught my eye was

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Speaker 7: when people said, oh my gosh, we have never seen

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Speaker 7: this kind of a vilification of a woman in the

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Speaker 7: headlines since your case.

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Speaker 3: And so I went, okay, tell me more. We have

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Speaker 3: so many questions.

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Speaker 5: First, I want to just catch a couple of people

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Speaker 5: up if they need it. So Amanda Knox, one of

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Speaker 5: the most recognizable figures in modern true crime, after being

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Speaker 5: accused of murdering her roommate you might remember, and that

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Speaker 5: was the British student Meredith Kercher. This happened while studying

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Speaker 5: abroad in Italy back in two thousand and seven, and

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Speaker 5: Amanda was convicted and spent nearly four years in prison

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Speaker 5: before that conviction was ultimately overturned by Italy's highest court

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Speaker 5: in twenty fifteen, and that ruling was she did not

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Speaker 5: commit the crime period the end. But Amanda's case was

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Speaker 5: a global media phenomenon and it sparked ongoing debates about

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Speaker 5: investigative methods and media narratives wrongful convictions, which I think

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Speaker 5: leads us exactly to what you were saying with the

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Speaker 5: Lucy let Be case. They came looking for you. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: how did that start?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So initially when I was approached it was by

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Speaker 7: people who it was shortly after she had been convicted.

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Speaker 7: So the backstory of this whole case is this hospital

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Speaker 7: in Chester, the Countess of Chester Hospital, in twenty fifteen

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Speaker 7: and twenty sixteen sees a suspicious rise in the deaths

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Speaker 7: of premature babies, so very very fragile, sick babies, like

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Speaker 7: babies that are born at twenty five weeks, like very

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Speaker 7: very fragile human beings. This neonatal unit that is taking

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Speaker 7: care of these babies is noticing that instead of having

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Speaker 7: two or three babies die a year, they're seeing two

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Speaker 7: or three babies die a month, and they start freaking out, justifiably.

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Speaker 7: They go what's going on? And ultimately what happens is

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Speaker 7: the doctors take a look at the nursing staff and

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Speaker 7: they go, well, here is one nurse who has been

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Speaker 7: on duty during all of these babies deaths. It must

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Speaker 7: be her, and she must be a serial killer. And

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Speaker 7: they go to the police. They tell the police this story,

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Speaker 7: they advocate for a investigation, and that unfolds. It's called

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Speaker 7: Operation Hummingbird, and over the course of that whole experience,

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Speaker 7: they end up finding a retired doctor, so one single

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Speaker 7: medical expert who comes to the table and says, I

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Speaker 7: know all of these you know deaths have been ruled

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Speaker 7: you know, natural causes, but I can tell that they

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Speaker 7: were all murders.

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Speaker 3: And here's how I'll tell you.

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Speaker 7: So he postulates a bunch of different ways that this

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Speaker 7: nurse might have killed these babies, from injecting air into

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Speaker 7: their stomachs, to injecting air into their veins, to injecting

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Speaker 7: them with insulin, just a number of different pathologies that

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Speaker 7: she has performed. The catch is, though, that no one

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Speaker 7: has ever seen her do anything. And as it turns out,

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Speaker 7: like all of this medical evidence is really complicated and

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Speaker 7: it is very ambiguous. And furthermore, these like the really

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Speaker 7: compelling piece of evidence that the prosecution brought to court

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Speaker 7: was this this chart that said, like, okay, here's all

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Speaker 7: the nurses on staff, all the babies who died. Look

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Speaker 7: who's the only common denominator, lucy let be Well, they

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Speaker 7: didn't show all the babies that died. They only showed

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Speaker 7: all the babies that died while she was on duty,

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Speaker 7: to say that she was the one who was murdering them. Furthermore,

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Speaker 7: they didn't show all of the doctors who happened to

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Speaker 7: be on duty. So like it was a very like

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Speaker 7: to me. So what came to me was a number

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Speaker 7: of people who were worried on the medical side of things,

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Speaker 7: and then on the statistical side of things. It was

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Speaker 7: primarily first the statisticians, the ones who were looking at

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Speaker 7: like this chart going wait a second, you're painting a pic.

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Speaker 7: You're doing this thing. That's a cognitive bias, and that's

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Speaker 7: an actual statistical error, which is you look at a

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Speaker 7: random scattering of data and then you circle the ones

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Speaker 7: that look closest together and say this this is meaningful

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Speaker 7: when actually could it could be random? And what's fascinating

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Speaker 7: about this case is it's not one of those cases

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Speaker 7: where we have a definitive answer ultimately, because so much

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Speaker 7: of this evidence is like really difficult, ambiguous medical evidence.

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Speaker 7: You have to look at not just how sick were

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Speaker 7: the babies, but how sick were the mothers when they

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Speaker 7: were pregnant with these babies. Like, there's so many factors

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Speaker 7: that could have led to this rise in deaths, including

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Speaker 7: difficulties in the hospital, staffing shortages. There was evidence of

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Speaker 7: there being leaks of bacteria and the hospital so rises

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Speaker 7: and infections. So there are other reasonable things that people

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Speaker 7: can look to to finding an answer, But I think

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Speaker 7: that they lead you to question the validity of the hospital,

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Speaker 7: the validity of the doctors, the validity of these institutions. Instead,

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Speaker 7: they were eager to find fault in a single individual.

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Speaker 7: And I think, what there's a danger here of that

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Speaker 7: being the case.

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Speaker 6: You mentioned this medical doctor that had retired, he was

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Speaker 6: basically the prosecutors like star witness yes, was that the

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Speaker 6: Dewey Evans person.

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Speaker 3: That was Dowie Evans. Yeah, dow Evans. Yeah, Dowie Evans.

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Speaker 7: And he was an interesting character because he had long

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Speaker 7: since retired and he had never actually set foot in

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Speaker 7: this hospital. He was just given the medical notes about

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Speaker 7: these babies, and he said that he was able to

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Speaker 7: determine within ten minutes how these babies were murdered, when

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Speaker 7: previous doctors and pathologists had not been able to determine

445
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 7: whether or not they had been murdered at all. So

446
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 7: it's just it's really interesting his level of confidence when

447
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 7: it seemed like he was sort of motivated when he

448
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 7: came forward to the like to the prosecution and to

449
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 7: the police to say you need a medical expert, I'll

450
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 7: be your guy.

451
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

452
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 6: So like okay, so because even post trial other medical

453
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 6: experts they criticized his assessment then said that it was

454
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 6: medically implausible right for the babies to have died the

455
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 6: way Dowie Evans thought they did.

456
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 7: Yes, and in fact it's Dowie Evans cited a medical

457
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 7: paper as part like a research paper in the medical

458
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 7: field as part of his proof to say, oh, this

459
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 7: is how these babies were murdered. There was a patterns

460
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 7: of like patchy blotches on the baby's skin, and that

461
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 7: was supposed to be proof of like an air embolism. Well,

462
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 7: he cited this paper to as proof of that being

463
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 7: the effect. Well, the person who actually wrote this paper,

464
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,479
Speaker 7: the one who had actually done the research, came forward

465
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 7: to say, doctor Dowie Evans has completely misunderstood my research

466
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 7: and has come forward to say, no, this is not

467
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 7: proof at all. In fact, it proves the opposite. So

468
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 7: it's led like that particular doctor coming forward, along with

469
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 7: a whole team of doctors, neonatologists, specialists in the field

470
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 7: who have come forward to question the validity of the

471
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 7: evidence and to argue that there's no evidence that anyone

472
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 7: was killed at all. Is it's been a huge controversial

473
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 7: thing in the UK because and I think the thing

474
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 7: that makes this case so interesting is it's one of

475
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 7: those it's a very typical case for how a woman

476
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 7: is wrongly convicted, right like the way I was wrongly

477
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 7: convicted is very unusual when it comes to women, because,

478
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 7: first of all, a young woman was raped and murdered.

479
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 7: It's not typical that a woman is accused of a

480
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 7: rape and a murder. But here we go, that's what

481
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 7: happened to me. What we know for a fact is

482
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 7: that a crime actually happened, and ultimately we were able

483
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 7: to determine who committed that crime. But in the cases

484
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 7: of women, the vast majority of times that women are

485
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 7: wrongly convicted, it's because something ambiguous happens, and often it

486
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 7: has to do with children. So and immediately the assumption

487
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 7: is one of their caretakers, and typically the caretaker who

488
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 7: was most recently in their vicinity is held responsible, and

489
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 7: that's the mother, or the babysitter or you know, the nanny.

490
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 7: That is a very very typical thing that happens, where

491
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 7: a woman is held accountable for a crime that never

492
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 7: occurred because of an ambiguous we're not quite sure exactly

493
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 7: what happened, but we don't like the looks of that woman.

494
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 7: She's not behaving correctly, she's you know, she we don't

495
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 7: there's just like there's something off about her, and that's

496
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 7: where we see all the hallmarks of a potential wrongful

497
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 7: conviction in this case.

498
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: That's so interesting because just to that end, as a mother,

499
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: a mother's or anybody on a jury, it's like that

500
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: is really like the sin, right, like a mother hurting

501
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 2: your child. It's like, oh goodness, So it enrages It's

502
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 2: like something everybody could agree on or in joy to

503
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: have that be targeted, and you know, that's a tough

504
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: one to come back from.

505
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 7: Oh absolutely, And I think that's what's so another interesting

506
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 7: factor of this case is how the media played a

507
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 7: role in this because as opposed to it in Italy,

508
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 7: where people are allowed to do like tons of really

509
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 7: salacious coverage from the moment of my arrest up until

510
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 7: my conviction and beyond, in the UK they have restrictions

511
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 7: around how you can report on a case that is

512
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 7: currently being tried in a courtroom. And so it was

513
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 7: really the story was really on lockdown for a long time. Basically,

514
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 7: Lucy was arrested and you know, the news came out

515
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 7: that she was arrested and she was accused, but no

516
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 7: one really knew the details of the case until she

517
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 7: was convicted, and by then the narrative around that conviction

518
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 7: had fully solidified, So there was just here's all the

519
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 7: facts of the case, but the main headline is this

520
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 7: is a human monster who deserves to rotten hell. And

521
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 7: like the headlines were just extremely hardline about that child murderer,

522
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 7: like the worst of the worst human being gets all

523
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 7: these life sentences, and it really shut the door on

524
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 7: any kind of scrutiny into how the evidence was presented

525
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 7: in court, whether or not there was an effective assistance

526
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 7: of counsel in this case, whether or not she had

527
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 7: gotten she received a proper defense, and so and even

528
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 7: like when it was first brought to my attention, I

529
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 7: remember like poking around a little bit, like reaching out

530
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 7: to various like journal like journalism, you know, people that

531
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 7: I knew at the BBC or whatever, and everyone was like, Amanda,

532
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 7: we can't talk about this case. It is so controversial,

533
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 7: like no one can touch this case. And that to

534
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 7: me is like the fascinating They do it well, but

535
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 7: it's fascinating. But it's also like this this ongoing problem

536
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 7: that we have of like in emotionally charged cases, how

537
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 7: do we as a society hold on to presumption of innocence,

538
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 7: the right to scrutinize cases while also acknowledging a tremendously

539
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 7: emotionally charged case that has like potentially super traumatized families

540
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 7: and victims. Like there's this this tension between closure and certainty,

541
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 7: and that is where I think we should be able

542
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 7: to have compassion and hold all those things both at once.

543
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 7: But they're often met in opposition to each other, and

544
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 7: people feel like they can't speak out. Nurses who felt

545
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 7: like this young nurse is being railroad, it felt like

546
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 7: they could not speak out about it because they would

547
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 7: lose their jobs, they would lose their not just their careers,

548
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 7: but their social standing.

549
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 3: They would do their friends. It was rias. Yeah, exactly,

550
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: actually true.

551
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: I mean even we're talking about a case even earlier

552
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 2: in the show about a mother in court and by

553
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 2: the way, even speaking for myself, you put it together

554
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, this is you know, how dare she?

555
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: But it's you know, we're not there, And that is

556
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: the perspective piece of it that I think, even just

557
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: for everyone listening, that we all have to check ourselves on.

558
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: You know, that is the we're unpacking stuff because it

559
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: reminds us maybe in some ways of something in our

560
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: own life that we can unpack or we can organize

561
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: the world, and somehow that's comforting, but in reality, you know,

562
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: these are real lives with real problems. In context and

563
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: perspective is everything.

564
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I find it troubling when for me, I

565
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 7: think it's a very extraordinary when a young woman with

566
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 7: no history of violence, no history of mental illness, and

567
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 7: absolutely no motive is suddenly cast as Britain's greatest serial killer.

568
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 7: I have to pause and go where did that come from?

569
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 7: And do we actually feel justified?

570
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 4: Well?

571
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, because this commission that the case got submitted to,

572
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 6: the panelist of like fourteen independent experts found that there

573
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 6: was no evidence that she committed any harm?

574
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 3: Is that right? That is correct? Yes? Wow? And she

575
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: was still convicted. Yeah, well, this is something that we

576
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 3: add into.

577
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 6: But I want to know something kind of important and

578
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 6: it did things change after she was taken in? Did

579
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 6: the babies do you know what I mean? Did babies

580
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 6: continue to die? Or did the hospital make corrections to

581
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 6: their environment? There's a lot of I have a lot

582
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 6: of questions about this case. Yes, there are a lot

583
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 6: more questions coming up.

584
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 3: Is right?

585
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 5: And luckily Dananda Knox is sticking with us as we

586
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 5: dig deeper into the Lucy let Be case and the

587
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 5: larger questions it raises so many about how public narratives

588
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 5: form in major trials.

589
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 3: We have a talkback right now, Hey.

590
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 10: This is Lisa from Pittsburgh. Amanda Knox, you are a hero,

591
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 10: an inspiration, full stop. One thing I noticed on the

592
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 10: show was that the police searched with the warrant with

593
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 10: the house members. I like that, So nothing could be

594
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 10: planted with your experience in the system. What is one

595
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 10: thing about their system that you would want to see

596
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 10: implemented here? And then vice versa, what would you like

597
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 10: to see implemented there that we have here.

598
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 3: This is a cool question.

599
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's great because when I was going through everything

600
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 7: in Italy, I had zero knowledge about either the American.

601
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: Or the Italian system, so.

602
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 7: I had to just like learn on the fly what

603
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 7: difference than what the rules are, and so I think, Yeah,

604
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 7: And since coming home, I've been able to meet other

605
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 7: wrongly convicted people. I've been able to talk with prosecutors

606
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 7: and defendants and criminal justice advocates. So I know a

607
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 7: lot more about the system that I ever thought I

608
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 7: would want to and there are some really interesting differences.

609
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 7: One thing that we do here in the United States

610
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 7: that I think is very valuable. It's imperfectly exercised or implemented,

611
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 7: but a very important thing in our adversarial system is

612
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 7: that there is some level of separation between the police

613
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 7: and the prosecution. Right Like, the police are the ones

614
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 7: who investigate the case, and they put the case together

615
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 7: and then they bring it to the prosecution as a

616
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 7: kind of check against hey, is this a prosecutable case?

617
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 7: And technically the prosecution is supposed to be that check.

618
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 7: In Italy they don't have that. The prosecution is leading

619
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 7: the investigation. There's no separation between the police and the prosecution,

620
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 7: so that check and balance doesn't take place. One thing

621
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 7: that they do in Italy though, that I think is

622
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 7: incredibly smart, that we do not do here is in

623
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 7: Italy all verdicts have to be motivated, meaning that any

624
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 7: verdict that is handed down by a court of law

625
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 7: has to come with a written explanation for how they

626
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 7: came to that verdict. So the jury and the judge deliberate,

627
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 7: they come to their conclusion, and they have ninety days

628
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 7: to deliver a fully written out, like over one hundred

629
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 7: page document going through each and every piece of evidence

630
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 7: and saying this is what we found compelling, this is

631
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 7: what we found not compelling, this is how we came

632
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 7: to our determination. It's a very transparent verdict process which

633
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 7: allows it makes it more possible for appeals to take

634
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 7: place because a new judge can look at that motivation

635
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 7: document and can see that potentially a witness it later recanted,

636
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 7: or there was the determination of what DNA evidence to

637
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 7: decide upon that wasn't really justified. Like, there are lots

638
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 7: of ways that you can approach and appeal when you

639
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 7: actually know how the verdict was deliberated on. Here in

640
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 7: the United States, it's considered sacred and secret. We don't

641
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 7: know how the jury deliberated and we don't know how

642
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 7: they decided. We just have to guess, and it makes

643
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 7: it really difficult, and it really up to the discretion

644
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 7: of any judge any day whether or not you have

645
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 7: a real chance at an appeal.

646
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 11: Can I jump in and Amanda, I want to ask

647
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 11: your question. We talked to We're to sort of go

648
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 11: back to the Lucy let Be case, and last night

649
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 11: we talked a little bit about it and it was

650
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 11: one thing I just had a hard time getting passed,

651
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 11: which was correctly if I'm wrong, but the authorities found

652
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 11: a note in her house that said I am evil,

653
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 11: I did this. That was something I just really had

654
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 11: Can you help me understand that or unpact.

655
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 7: That yes, thank you for bringing that up. Because prior

656
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 7: to Lucy being arrested for this crime she was getting

657
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 7: she was basically being harassed by her colleagues, her the

658
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 7: doctors at the hospital. We're trying to get her fired

659
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 7: for misconduct. They were like, we this nurse, we were

660
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 7: suspicious of her, were trying to get her out of here.

661
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 7: She was defending herself against them, but obviously like she's

662
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 7: being accused of doing harming innocent babies and is reacting

663
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 7: really strongly to this, is sort of having an emotional breakdown.

664
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 7: She goes to her therapist, and her therapist tells her,

665
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 7: write down everything that you're thinking and feeling. Just get

666
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 7: it out, because right now it's just all in your head.

667
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: Just get it out. And so she has and.

668
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 7: She has friends who who also attest to this that

669
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 7: they were also taught this method of therapy of just

670
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 7: write down all of your thoughts, any thought that comes into.

671
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 3: Your head, just to get it out. Yeah.

672
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 7: So they found lots of pieces of paper with lots

673
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 7: of things scribbled on it, including I didn't do this,

674
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 7: why are they doing this to me?

675
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 3: But they cherry.

676
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 7: Picked the pieces of paper where she's wrote down things

677
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 7: like I did this, I'm a bad person, which are

678
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 7: not the same thing as a confession. Those could be

679
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 7: just her vocalizing what other people are saying about her

680
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 7: and her like processing this thing. So I think that's

681
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 7: another really interesting piece of this case is how her

682
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 7: behavior or these little, like minor pieces of evidence were

683
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 7: either cherry picked and then twisted to mean more than

684
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 7: they were, or her behavior like in my own case,

685
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 7: and an ambiguous behavior like, for instance, going on Facebook

686
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 7: and looking up the families of these babies who had died.

687
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 7: Right She's going online to check out these families online

688
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 7: to see how they're doing. Now, some people look at

689
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 7: that is as somebody who's concerned and is invested in

690
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 7: the lives of these people who she's a part of

691
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 7: their life. Other people look at that as her gloating

692
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 7: over the tragedy, over having murdered these babies and sort

693
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 7: of stalking the families online. Depending on how you want

694
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 7: to look at it, you can put you can have

695
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 7: an opinion about it, But the ultimate fact is you

696
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 7: have a piece of paper. What is it a confession

697
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 7: or is it just her processing this very negative experience

698
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 7: that's happening to her. It's not the same thing as

699
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 7: her going to a police officer and saying, take me in,

700
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 7: I'm out of control, I'm hurting babies. I confess, here's

701
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 7: how I did it. That is not what happened. And

702
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 7: so whenever she was questioned about this by the police,

703
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 7: she always one hundred percent maintained that she had no

704
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 7: idea how these babies died. She always did her best,

705
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 7: and she was very sad, but she didn't do anything wrong.

706
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 7: So but if first a lot was made and it

707
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 7: was a very like big headline, everyone's zooming in on

708
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 7: that one little scrap of paper ignoring all the others.

709
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, well answered, if you're just joining us, this is

710
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 5: a true crime tonight, and we're so like to be

711
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 5: here with Amanda Knox, and Amanda, among many other things,

712
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 5: is talking about her new podcast out now called Doubt

713
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 5: The Case of Lucy let Be. So, Amanda, do you

714
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 5: want to talk about sort of what your process was

715
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 5: in deciding to do the podcast and what was the

716
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 5: process over time that came to build the podcast.

717
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

718
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 7: So, like I said, I was initially a lot of

719
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 7: people started reaching out to me after her conviction to

720
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 7: say they were really concerned that an injustice had taken place,

721
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 7: and here was a young woman who had no history

722
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 7: of violence, no motive, no history of any kind of

723
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 7: mental illness, who was suddenly being cast as the worst

724
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 7: serial killer Britain had ever seen. And so they said Amanda, like,

725
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 7: we need you to look into this case. We think

726
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 7: something really bad is happening to this woman. And I

727
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 7: think that they knew that I would be someone who

728
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 7: would be very open and considering that an injustice had happened.

729
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 7: And I think they were concerned about finding someone like

730
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 7: me who would be open to that idea, because in

731
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 7: Great Britain, the very like anyone who questioned, you know,

732
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 7: her conviction after the trial was over was considered a crackpot,

733
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 7: conspiracy theorist idiot who was just trying to torture the

734
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 7: families of these poor innocent children who were murdered. And

735
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 7: so they reached out to me, and I had to

736
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 7: have a moment of checking myself because a lot of

737
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 7: people reach out to me and asked me to look

738
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 7: into their cases. And I have made the mistake before

739
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 7: of believing in someone's innocence until I fully delved into

740
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 7: the DNA evidence of the case, the very sticky, tricky

741
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 7: blood evidence of a case, and I realized that I

742
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 7: was wrong, and I had to do a huge maya culpa.

743
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 7: I wrote a big Atlantic article about having made this

744
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 7: mistake and realizing the misas and trying to write the mistake.

745
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 7: And I think that that was a very important exercise

746
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 7: for me as an advocate, Like I'm so glad that

747
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 7: I learned that lesson, and also that I kind of

748
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 7: learned that lesson very publicly, in the sense that like

749
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 7: it was I think it's very important for people who

750
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 7: are charged with finding the truth to like hold themselves accountable.

751
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 7: And so here I was with a story that came

752
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 7: to to me that I think people knew that I

753
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 7: would be sort of preconditioned to having sympathy for this

754
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 7: woman who was being utterly vilified in the press using

755
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 7: very scandalous overtones without like any true understanding of even

756
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 7: if she were guilty, what her motives might be, Like

757
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 7: just sort of fantastic, fantasty there was something mental health

758
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 7: was going on, or he knows, yeah, and you don't know,

759
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 7: And of course people are sort of armchair diagnosing from

760
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 7: AFAR when in fact there's no history of her having

761
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 7: any kind of medical disorder. So it's I like was

762
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 7: primed to believe her, But I also knew that I

763
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 7: could not just go into this case thinking this is

764
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 7: a wrongful conviction case.

765
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 6: So you recognized your own like confirmation bias here, right, Oh, yes,

766
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 6: you recognized it, and you face it. You faced it,

767
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 6: had all and that's what you have to do. Yes,

768
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 6: can I recognize it? You came to terms with it,

769
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 6: you wreck it, you know you you voiced it. And

770
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 6: now you're looking at this one, and how do you

771
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 6: set aside that? How do you set aside your own

772
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 6: biases for maybe falsely accused women.

773
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 7: Well, so what I do is I, first of all,

774
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 7: I recognize the hallmarks of how women get wrongly convicted

775
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 7: and also vilified. And there's a particular way that women

776
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 7: are vilified. Very often we are vilified through our reproductive function.

777
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 7: So we're either highly sexualized or we are highly like

778
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 7: we are turned into monsters from who murder children like

779
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 7: that that is is the narrative. And I looked at

780
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 7: right where the wicked woman who snaps that's very typical,

781
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 7: especially when you hear cases of women who like hurt children.

782
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 7: Is the ideas that just one day they were totally,

783
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 7: totally fine, everything was fine, and then one day they snapped.

784
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 7: You hear that snapped all the time. There's a whole

785
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 7: genre of stories of women TV shows, TV show called snap.

786
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 7: So there is that history in our social consciousness of

787
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 7: women who snap. So maybe they don't have a history

788
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 7: of violence, maybe they don't have a motive, but like

789
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 7: maybe women just snap. That's just an idea that's out there.

790
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 7: I'm very skeptical of when people sort of put that

791
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 7: because I feel like that's any answer for we don't

792
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 7: know why this happened, if it did indeed happen, So

793
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 7: instead I have to look at this case and I go, okay,

794
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 7: well what do we actually know? So what was presented

795
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 7: at trial was that there was no other explanation for

796
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 7: how these children could have dined, and in fact, there

797
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 7: is a very clear this is how this baby died.

798
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 3: This is how that baby died.

799
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 7: Thought it was very interesting that this supposed serial killer

800
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 7: didn't have just one way that she murdered, like one

801
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 7: miss there was right, like supposedly there are all these

802
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 7: different modus operandie, including injecting children with insulin, which I

803
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 7: find fast, Like, I have a sister who is in

804
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 7: the medical field, who works in a hospital. She tells

805
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 7: me that nobody can just get their hands on insulin.

806
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 7: Every nurse has to like tap in to get any

807
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 7: kind of medication. So the idea that she would just

808
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 7: have insulin out there, Like, there were lots of reasons

809
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 7: why I felt like there was too much confidence on

810
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 7: the part of this one medical expert for the prosecution

811
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 7: to claim that he knew exactly how these babies died

812
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 7: when it was actually quite ambiguous. And then beyond that,

813
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 7: I was really interested in how the statistical evidence that

814
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 7: was used in this case. So these charts that show

815
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 7: only she could have done it because she was the

816
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 7: only nurse who had done on the like, had been

817
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 7: there when all the babies died, Well.

818
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 3: That was just false.

819
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 7: That that was just actually manufactured by the prosecution to

820
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 7: present an idea that was not actually true, and statisticians

821
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 7: were the first to recognize it and call foul. And

822
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 7: that to me left me feeling like, Okay, in this case,

823
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 7: we certainly don't have proof of innocence, but we also

824
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 7: certainly don't have guilt, And what do we do about that?

825
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 3: Right and go ahead, Courtney, I'm sorry, I.

826
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 8: Want to.

827
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 6: I'm listening to this podcast. I'm very interested in this case.

828
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:52,240
Speaker 6: I just yesterday very interested. So great listen. We literally

829
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 6: can't thank you enough for joining us again. Yeah, it's

830
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 6: such a pleasure to speak with you and any perspective.

831
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 5: Okay, we will take you up on that tomorrow. Thank

832
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 5: you and listen everyone. Amanda hosts the podcast Hard Knocks

833
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 5: as well as her new podcast Doubt The Case of

834
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 5: Lucy let Be. We know everyone will be talking in

835
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 5: us first, and they're available on substack wherever you get

836
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 5: your podcasts.

837
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 6: So thank you Correlations forget it when we come back.

838
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 5: Aaron Parness, who is one of the most influential voices

839
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 5: in digital news today. He's joining us to weigh in

840
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 5: on the Epstein Files and we will be right back.

841
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 3: Keep it here on True Crime Tonight.

842
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

843
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

844
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body move in. By the way, Taha

845
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 2: House is back in the house, our producer is back

846
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 2: in the hot seat, and of course Sam and Adam

847
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 2: are here ready for your phone call. Please anytime eight

848
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: eight eight three one crime or you can always leave

849
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 2: us a talkback. We're so excited to have Aaron partners here.

850
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: The girls are a little tired of me forever sending

851
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: his social media posts to them every day. Really is listen,

852
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: I say this every day too. I'm finding it harder

853
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 2: and harder to source facts, right, so sure they're really

854
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: you know, and certainly with all these different medior mergers happening,

855
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: having really independent voices is so important and Aaron is

856
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: like crushing it. I was saying to him during the break,

857
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: I feel like I was a part of the rise.

858
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: He has like five million or probably way more than that,

859
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 2: even at this point, followers on TikTok and social media

860
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 2: death subjects and substack exactly, and you know, I watch

861
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: him on Instagram and it's really informative.

862
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 3: But watching that rise has been really important.

863
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: He's a big deal, thirty under thirty by you know,

864
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 2: very fancy people, and has been doing extraordinary coverage on

865
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: all things. And I personally want to just focus him

866
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: on Epstein for just a few moments, but there's lots

867
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 2: of topics to get to. He covers it all and

868
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,439
Speaker 2: we're just so happy to have you here. Welcome Erin.

869
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 8: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited this is.

870
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 5: Yes, it's listen and yeah, Stephanie, I do think was

871
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 5: fan one of five million, And just to brag on

872
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 5: you for a hot minute, Erin is also a lawyer

873
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 5: in addition to being a journalist and graduated he was

874
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 5: twenty one.

875
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 3: From law school if I'm not mistaken. So Pitty BIG's

876
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 3: a pretty big brain in this head, you know.

877
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: So we've always been very survivor forward, victim forward. It's

878
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 2: really sort of the DNA of even the show. It's

879
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 2: just kind of a place for people to come and

880
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 2: share their stories. And we've been following the Epstein case

881
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: really since day one and now with thousands of women

882
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 2: and survivors coming forward, you know, and we've said it

883
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 2: here many it's difficult to know that that has happened.

884
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 2: So many people said it didn't. Then we get the

885
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 2: drop of the Epstein files, and you know, it just

886
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 2: a vindicates the survivors in their stories.

887
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 3: But again, there hasn't been much action.

888
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: Since then within our orbit, I should say, you know,

889
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 2: throughout the world. Yeah, we've seen some really big people

890
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: have to be accountable, but We're really not seeing it

891
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 2: here as much as I think we will, is what

892
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: I'm hopeful for.

893
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean I tend to agree with you. I mean,

894
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 8: there's only so much accountability that can be had when

895
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 8: you have a government that doesn't really want it right.

896
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 8: And I think that that's the unfortunate situation here. You

897
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 8: have governments overseas willing to open up their own investigations,

898
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 8: review the files themselves, et cetera, et cetera, but here

899
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 8: it seems like the government's doing anything they can to

900
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 8: just kind of get away from it. Now. I will

901
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 8: say this accountability has come in some respects, and I've

902
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 8: spoken to a lot of survivors who are seeing the resignations,

903
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 8: the arrest of Andrew, the rest of the former Norwegian

904
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 8: prime minister. I mean, these are huge, huge, and I

905
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 8: think a lot of people forget that it's not about Trump,

906
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 8: like so many people want getting Troup right. But at

907
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 8: the end of the day, it's about so much more

908
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 8: and we're seeing this so much more happen. But because

909
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 8: Trump is not being walked out of the White House

910
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 8: and handcuffs, a lot of people are upset. But unfortunately,

911
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 8: I mean, unless there's evidence to prove that he did

912
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 8: something criminal. You're not going to see them walk out

913
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 8: in handcuffs, and the DJ is not just going to

914
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 8: release that evidence for everyone to see.

915
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 6: No.

916
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: I feel if anything we're going to do, you're adapted. Yeah,

917
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 2: And that's a little bit of the confusing part. Speaking

918
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 2: for myself personally, I'm finding myself really down the middle

919
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 2: now and independent just given the files, because I'm seeing

920
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: some of the people that I looked up to and

921
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 2: trusted the most, or institutions that I really respect, and

922
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: by the way, I respect pretty much all of them

923
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: having to question the things that personally I have valued

924
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: or assumed we're accurate, or when someone says something.

925
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 3: I'm a believer.

926
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 2: I believe in all the things that you know, keep

927
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 2: us all together and unified. It's been really dysregulating and

928
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 2: it kind of heartbreaking to really understand where I don't

929
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 2: even know where to be productive in reporting it to

930
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 2: some extent because I fear it's going to get lost

931
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: in a political conversation of this versus that, or I

932
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 2: fear that we're all getting fatigued and therefore like ignoring

933
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 2: some of the real big ticket things that we are

934
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 2: seeing in these files that really do require real exploration,

935
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: not only on behalf of the victims and survivors, but

936
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: I mean it's going to a level that's kind of

937
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 2: impossible to talk about without sounding like you've left the

938
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: reservation altogether. And at the same time, it's important that

939
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: we do, and I think you do such a great

940
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 2: job of that. So some of this is you know,

941
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 2: air quotes conspiracy, but it's sort of shaking out to

942
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 2: maybe be a little less so, and we're hoping you

943
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 2: can kind of help us navigate a little bit in

944
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 2: a productive manner that faragnized.

945
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 3: Is that reasonable?

946
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 8: I will live what you what you're feeling, and what

947
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 8: you're explaining is what the survivors have felt for thirty years, right, Like, yeah,

948
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 8: they have been ignored. Imagine for years, right, they're tired.

949
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 8: Every time there's some step forward they get a document

950
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 8: that's fully redacted, it's ten steps backwards. So I'm actually

951
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 8: kind of glad the public is experiencing this in a

952
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 8: way because they're now seeing what the survivors have been feeling,

953
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 8: and maybe they'll be something will be different this time around.

954
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 2: And by the way, the truth will set us free. Right,

955
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 2: you have to you know, open the doors in the

956
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 2: dark to let some light in. And we've had many

957
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 2: survivors here as well who have said the same and

958
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 2: certainly not making any comparisons to how I'm feeling with them,

959
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: but I feel for them and I feel confused.

960
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, me too.

961
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,439
Speaker 5: It's just regulating. If you're just joining us, this is true.

962
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 5: Crimsonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here with Body

963
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 5: Movement and Stephanie Leidecker and listen, we've been talking about

964
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 5: and Parness in the Epstein Files.

965
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 3: Aaron.

966
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 5: If you don't know and follow him, you should. He

967
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 5: is a social media news influencer. He breaks down complex

968
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 5: legal and political stories and he does it in these

969
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 5: really quick and digestible updates. You can find him on Instagram, TikTok,

970
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 5: and substack. He is at Aaron Parness And if you

971
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 5: have thoughts about our conversation, we always want to hear

972
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 5: from you, so leave us a talk back on the

973
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 5: iHeartRadio app. What do you think of sort of the massive,

974
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 5: massive payouts that have happened from some banks, with Chase,

975
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 5: with Bank of America. Do you think it tells us

976
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 5: anything about our financial system?

977
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 3: Or do you think it's siloed.

978
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think I think that's like, actually a big

979
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 8: piece that's being heavily underreported is the impact or the

980
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 8: I guess, the role that these big banks played in

981
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 8: this scheme. Right, In a lot of these sex trafficking

982
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 8: and international criminal rings, the easiest way to get someone

983
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 8: is to follow the money. The money always goes, and

984
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 8: the money has to pass through financial institutions, whether abroad

985
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 8: or here in the United States of America. And in

986
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 8: Jeffrey Epstein's case, a lot of the money that he

987
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 8: was using to fund to sex trafficking went through big banks.

988
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 8: And the question is who at the banks knew? Did

989
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 8: they know? That's a question that the banks will ultimately

990
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 8: have to answer. That's why they're settling because they don't

991
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 8: want to answer, right. They don't want to have to

992
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 8: go and be deposed. So looking at the banks and

993
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 8: looking at the money going from one account to the

994
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 8: other is how you're going to get accountability. The issue

995
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 8: is is that good luck getting bank records from a

996
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 8: bank overseas. That takes years. That's not easy to do.

997
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 8: You can't do that overnight. Even getting a bank record

998
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 8: from Chase Bank here in the United States you're going

999
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 8: to jump through a million different hoops. It's going to

1000
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 8: take a months, so it's not easy to do. But

1001
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 8: that's where you have to look if you're a prosecutor.

1002
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 2: Even this week seeing Bank of America, we talked about

1003
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 2: this a little bit yesterday about even their pay out

1004
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: to some of the survivors, which is good. I mean,

1005
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 2: they deserve all that and more, but it kind of

1006
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 2: also prevents certain people from being deposed, some of the

1007
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 2: big names that we've heard in these files. It surprises

1008
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 2: me that even outside just the Clintons, that there haven't

1009
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 2: been more called to the carpet in terms of what

1010
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 2: they know. Even just on behalf of the survivors. We're

1011
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 2: not even saying, Aha, you're involved, you did it, you

1012
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 2: bad person, you're eating children.

1013
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 3: That's not even what we're saying.

1014
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 2: We're just like, we want the answers so that the

1015
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 2: survivors can collect their pieces of the puzzle, and if

1016
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: you know anything, of course you would want to share

1017
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 2: that and help. But it seems like there's really a stopgame.

1018
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 2: Is eight eating.

1019
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 6: Children really a thing in the Epstein file, Stephanie or

1020
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:46,959
Speaker 6: Aaron whoever?

1021
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:47,879
Speaker 3: Is that really a thing?

1022
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 8: I mean, there's so many of these. I don't want

1023
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 8: to call them conspiracies because I don't know what's real

1024
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 8: and what's not a lot of them, and that's the

1025
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 8: problem with them. That's what happens when you release three

1026
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 8: million documents without any content, text, any like anything. I mean,

1027
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 8: that's what people say. Some people say, whereas in files,

1028
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 8: I'm not a believer in it, but I don't.

1029
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 6: Have mind because these are tips that get called in, right, like,

1030
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 6: and tips are part of the Epstein files.

1031
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 3: Right.

1032
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 6: So when they're releasing the Epstein files and people say, well,

1033
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 6: they're eating children in the Epstein files, Well, somebody called

1034
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 6: in a tip and it was recorded and then released

1035
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 6: as part of the dump, the document dump. It doesn't

1036
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 6: mean that there was an investigation and they found evidence

1037
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 6: of it. It just means that somebody called in a tip.

1038
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 6: So when people say, and I think people out there

1039
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 6: need to know, just because it's in the Epstein files

1040
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 6: doesn't mean it was part of the invested, you know,

1041
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 6: the larger investigation.

1042
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 3: It just came into law enforcement as a tip. Right.

1043
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like there's a lot of talk about

1044
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: jerky though in some of the things that do get

1045
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 2: spoken this is the piece of theory. This is the

1046
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 2: junkie theory. So again we are not saying that this

1047
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 2: is accurate. I'm giving a very loose assertion of some

1048
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 2: of the chatter surrounding the Epstein files, which is, you know,

1049
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 2: even beyond the survivors in the tails of this trafficking,

1050
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 2: which is, you know, we cannot be discounted. And sometimes

1051
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 2: I fear talking about this next layer almost undermines the

1052
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 2: narrative of the survivors of this trafficking operation. But just

1053
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 2: for the share for our audience, Yeah, people are saying

1054
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 2: that there might be this elite class of very few,

1055
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 2: they're considered the Epstein class, that are sort of controlling

1056
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 2: the banking systems at a very high level. And twenty

1057
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 2: plus banks have in fact been indicted. We're seeing insane

1058
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 2: amount of money being paid out to hush money, et cetera,

1059
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 2: to survivors. Again well deserved, But why were all these

1060
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 2: red flags missed? And that this elite class that they

1061
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 2: are somehow doing occult type things, which therefore, what.

1062
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 3: Was that noise that was scary? Maybe I'm being shut

1063
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 3: down from the diskies, from the.

1064
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,240
Speaker 2: Weird that the occult is running some sort of secret

1065
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 2: game and part of getting into this class, there's a

1066
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 2: ritual that involves something with eating human flesh.

1067
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 3: Is that a fair assessment? Was that an accurate sum up?

1068
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 8: A great explaination. I'm not going to give my thoughts

1069
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 8: one or the other on whether there's eating children or

1070
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 8: all that, right, I think though there is an Epstein class. Now,

1071
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 8: who the Epstein class is I don't know, and who

1072
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 8: whether they control the banks or not, that's not my

1073
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 8: department for me. When I say the Epstein class, I

1074
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 8: say the wealthy and powerful people who are stopping accountability

1075
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 8: from happening. Right. I consider the President of the United

1076
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 8: States it's part of the Epstein class, not because he

1077
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 8: may have done anything criminal per se, but because he

1078
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 8: is preventing accountability from happening, so that that kind.

1079
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 2: Of happens and complacency in and of itself could be

1080
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 2: considered a crime. And you know, something as horrific of

1081
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 2: what we're talking about in the victim's testimony is next level.

1082
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 2: Do you think anything will come of the investigation into

1083
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,240
Speaker 2: the Zoro Ranch in New Mexico?

1084
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 8: No, unfortunately not. I mean you're now searching a property,

1085
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 8: what seven years right after Epstein was indicted and died.

1086
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 8: Evidence moves away pretty quickly. I mean, the only thing

1087
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 8: that would stay there is like if there were remains

1088
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 8: on the property and they haven't been dug up. Even

1089
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 8: if they had been dug up, you could probably still

1090
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 8: get something from the dirt or whatnot. I don't know

1091
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 8: that they're going to find remains there. There's no indication

1092
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 8: that they've found any. But other than that, I mean,

1093
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 8: the property has been turned over to a new owner,

1094
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 8: So it's very hard. And I mean the whole other

1095
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 8: thing is, Okay, you find evidence that evidence is never

1096
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 8: going to be admissible in a court of law because

1097
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 8: there's so many chain of custody issues. What's to say,

1098
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 8: like it hasn't been planted at any point after Epstein.

1099
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 8: I mean, like you just don't know. So, like it's

1100
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 8: very difficult.

1101
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 6: I wonder if it's just for show then, because I

1102
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 6: tend to agree with you, Eric, and I don't think

1103
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 6: that anything's going to come of it. And part of

1104
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 6: me think it's thinks that this investigation in Desorro Ranch

1105
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 6: is kind of just like a Okay, look at we're

1106
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 6: doing something, Like look look at us, We're we're actually

1107
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 6: doing something. Because in the United States of America, nobody

1108
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 6: really has been arrested for the Epsteine files, whereas in

1109
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 6: other parts of the country people have been arrested, like

1110
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 6: you know the present the Prime minister in Norway and

1111
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 6: you know Prince Andrew and you know, and here, nothing's

1112
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 6: really happened. And I'm not saying anything will or should.

1113
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 6: However nothing has. And I think this is part of

1114
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 6: like this, look at us, We're doing something and even

1115
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 6: knowing that nothing's going to come out of it.

1116
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 8: Well, that's why I say, look at the money. Because

1117
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 8: Andrew wasn't arrested for sex trafficking or any sexual related right,

1118
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 8: our region prime minister wasn't arrested for any sexual That's right,

1119
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 8: it's bank Look at the money. And look, there's so

1120
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 8: much money laundering going on, so much tax evasion going on.

1121
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 8: You can easily get folks who are connected to Epsteine

1122
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 8: on money related crimes. I mean they get people on

1123
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 8: activation every single day in the United States of America

1124
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 8: for It's a low level, easy thing to get someone.

1125
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 6: So Prince Andrew was arrested for sharing state secrets, right,

1126
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 6: wasn't it.

1127
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 8: Yes?

1128
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 6: And then the Prime Minister of Norway was related to fraud,

1129
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 6: like banking fraud, right. I just wanted to make sure

1130
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 6: that I understood that correctly. But yeah, you follow the money.

1131
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 6: I think that that's probably the way to go.

1132
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 5: That is absolutely right, follow the money, and we will

1133
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 5: be following that and a whole lot more because Aaron

1134
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 5: parnas one of the world's most followed voices in digital news.

1135
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 5: He's sticking around. When we come back, we're going to

1136
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 5: dig into accountability. When is it coming and what might

1137
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 5: it look like. It's what we all want to know

1138
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 5: and don't forget. If you have thoughts, we always want

1139
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 5: to hear from you, let us know on the talkbacks

1140
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 5: on the iHeartRadio app Keep it Here True Crime Tonight.

1141
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Toonay on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1142
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with Courtney

1143
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,959
Speaker 2: and Body and we have a very special guest, Aaron

1144
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 2: Parness is with us. He's somebody that I follow very closely.

1145
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 2: We really hope you do too. He is the mind

1146
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 2: of the next generation who's going to pull us out

1147
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 2: of this madness. And I really do appreciate that about you, Aerin,

1148
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 2: You're really you're galvanizing the next generation or all generations,

1149
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 2: myself included. But I think it's the it's this next

1150
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 2: one that's really going to be the backbone of a

1151
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 2: lot of change upon us. So thank you for doing

1152
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 2: the hard work that you do. And if you haven't

1153
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 2: checked out his work, please do. He's on Instagram and

1154
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 2: TikTok and definitely check out his substat really deep and

1155
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 2: important information in there right now, and if you have

1156
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 2: any questions you can always join us.

1157
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 6: I've followed Erin for since I think since twenty twenty

1158
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 6: around then you started on TikTok after the invasion of Ukraine,

1159
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 6: I think right. And I followed Aaron for a long

1160
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 6: time and listen, he drops everything if there's breaking news.

1161
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 6: He will literally make a video from the grocery store

1162
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 6: if there's breaking news. And gen Z and jen Alfil

1163
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 6: really seem to really like that, and guess what, so

1164
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 6: does jed X.

1165
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:13,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, but same here. That's what I love about it too.

1166
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 3: It's very instant. How do you pull that off?

1167
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 2: Like you were just so good forever on the pulse

1168
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 2: of the news twenty four to seven.

1169
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 8: You just have to stop caring about like what you

1170
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 8: look like online.

1171
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 2: All right, done the way. Listen, it's hard to put

1172
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 2: yourself out there every second of the day, and you

1173
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 2: seem to do it so well. So we were talking

1174
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 2: about the Epstein files and the potential for some maybe

1175
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 2: accountability and kind of what we think could be upon

1176
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 2: us and how we can be productive to make sure

1177
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:43,959
Speaker 2: that we are a part of the change for the better,

1178
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 2: and what we should be taking from these files that

1179
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 2: you know is important to know and what we can't

1180
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 2: unsee and you know, keep the fight for justice for

1181
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 2: the victims at the forefront. There's a couple of people

1182
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,479
Speaker 2: that have been sort of in our ether in court.

1183
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 3: I know we'll go through that.

1184
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 2: But Quurtney, who's top of your list of people you

1185
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 2: would like to know about?

1186
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 5: So top of my list would be Leon Black And

1187
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 5: for people who are listening who aren't aware, he's the

1188
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 5: billionaire co founder of Apollo Global Management. And in fact,

1189
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 5: last segment we were talking about sort of the banking

1190
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 5: system and what's going on, and there's a suit that

1191
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 5: claims the bank overlooked about one hundred and seventy million

1192
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 5: dollars in payments from Leon Black to Epstein, as well

1193
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 5: as facilitated financial structures that supported abuse.

1194
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 3: Any thoughts on that.

1195
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 8: So I think accountability could be coming for Leon Black.

1196
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 8: Not I don't know. I don't know what he's involved

1197
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 8: with in terms of like exactly criminally or not or whatnot.

1198
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 8: But there's something there that the public deserves to know

1199
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 8: that we don't know. And I think that, Yes, the

1200
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 8: Bank of America settlement avoided him having to sit down

1201
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 8: for a deposition, which to me sucked like he should.

1202
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 2: I was really disappointed by that, just seemed like again

1203
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 2: another way of scooting by. But at the same time,

1204
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 2: I want the victims to have a settlement, so I

1205
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 2: get it.

1206
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 8: But I will say afterwards, Senator Ron Wyden came out

1207
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 8: and kind of who's been really on the beat in

1208
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 8: terms of the financial transactions and all of this, and

1209
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 8: kind of said Leon Black's day, judgment day is still coming.

1210
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 8: So I think Lee, I'm Black. If I believe he's

1211
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 8: already been subpoena by or has been asked testify in

1212
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 8: front of the House Overside Committee, he's going to have

1213
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 8: to sit down and he's going to have to answer.

1214
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 8: So there may there may be something there.

1215
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 2: Is there any value in the fact And again, if

1216
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 2: this is too political. You don't have to go there,

1217
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 2: but you know, we get a lot of DMS and

1218
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 2: I personally get a lot of chatter about just in

1219
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 2: general as we enter the war and our troops are

1220
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 2: going into war. Is the Epstein files part of a

1221
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 2: larger distractive conversation or is there nothing there to be

1222
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 2: chasing in that regard.

1223
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 8: Any operation Epstein Fury?

1224
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 3: I think so.

1225
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I hate to say that, and it makes

1226
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 2: me so scuse. I like, oh, our troops, I would

1227
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:04,479
Speaker 2: care so much about them.

1228
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, same. I have to take this from like

1229
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 8: a journalistic perspective. Do I think he is using the

1230
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 8: war to distract from the Epstein files? If he was,

1231
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 8: it'd be a distraction because the Epsteine files haven't gone away,

1232
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 8: right Like, just because the media isn't talking about them

1233
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 8: every day doesn't mean that Pam Bondi wasn't just subpoena today,

1234
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 8: doesn't mean that you still have depositions scheduled with the

1235
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 8: number of witnesses over the next six weeks. So they're

1236
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 8: not going away. So it's a shitty distraction. If it

1237
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 8: is a distraction, I don't know how much of a

1238
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 8: distraction it is, as much as I mean, that's a

1239
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 8: whole nother, a whole other.

1240
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a whole rabbit hole.

1241
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 2: But again, we're getting inundated with so much information. It's

1242
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 2: helpful just to kind of cut through what we need

1243
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 2: to cut through.

1244
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 6: So we don't know that any foreign policy or any

1245
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 6: current domestic policy is being because it feels arin it

1246
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 6: feels a little bit like we're under We're not a

1247
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 6: pressure cooker, right it feels like the United States of

1248
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 6: America is just this pressure cooker right now. And you know,

1249
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 6: we have the homeland security stuff going on, we have

1250
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 6: you know, this this operation happening in Iran there it's

1251
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 6: a war, but it's not a war. I don't know.

1252
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 6: It just seems like there's a lot going on there.

1253
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 6: So no, none of this. Is it possible that some

1254
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 6: of this is just a smoke show to cover for

1255
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 6: the Epstein files because it all.

1256
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:26,959
Speaker 3: Kind of happened at the same time.

1257
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 8: Anything's possible. Of course, it's possible, that's true. I mean,

1258
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 8: I don't know what the president's thinking. I think right

1259
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 8: of course to say, like I want to change the

1260
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 8: news cycle, but I'm going to be honest with you,

1261
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 8: I don't know that this ran war coverage is much

1262
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 8: better for him than the Epstein That's true, right like

1263
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 8: that she arguably in a lot of ways worse for

1264
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 8: him right now because it's impacting the average American more

1265
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 8: than the Epstein files. So I don't know very well.

1266
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 8: Could be a good point in part of his mind,

1267
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 8: but I don't know.

1268
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 2: And do you think, just going back to the Epstein

1269
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 2: side of it and this the human trafficking of it all,

1270
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 2: is it possible that that machine that he was running

1271
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 2: at such a high level, and you know, some have

1272
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 2: said he's an operative in a spy my personal opinion

1273
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 2: that checks out for me to who.

1274
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1275
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 2: Is this operation still happening? My greatest fear is that

1276
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 2: we're talking about thousands of women, and we've heard so

1277
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 2: much testimony here alone and obviously in the press of

1278
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 2: so many women who have had the courage to come forward.

1279
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 2: Is it possible that this machine is such a well

1280
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 2: oiled one, that Epstein was just a middleman, and that

1281
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 2: the higher ranks of this have the machine going still.

1282
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 3: That's my big fear.

1283
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 8: It's possible. I actually think we're going to get some

1284
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 8: reporting on Epstein's connection to Russian intelligence, maybe tomorrow. Just

1285
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 8: saying this, I think sometime this week, I think is

1286
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 8: some new reporting is going to come out. To stay

1287
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 8: tuned for that. But I do think, I mean, listen,

1288
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 8: I think the best way I could describe Epstein as

1289
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 8: he's a mercenary, right, or rather was a mercenary. He

1290
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 8: sold out to the highest bidder, whether it was a

1291
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 8: foreign government, whether it was an American billionaire. Wherever he

1292
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 8: could get the most kind of bang for his buck

1293
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 8: in terms of money, that's where he went. And so

1294
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 8: that's why you saw him assisting with giving out state

1295
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 8: secrets to the Russians, right, That's why he was gathering

1296
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 8: state secrets from Andrew. To me, it's like no one

1297
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 8: person can just get all these billionaires to give them,

1298
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 8: to give them all this money and all this cash,

1299
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 8: and rise up in the rank so quickly just just

1300
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 8: by being an average show diffen. Right, So there's a

1301
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 8: lot more to the story. I don't think that he

1302
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:24,959
Speaker 8: was just like a Russian spy or an Israeli spy

1303
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 8: or whatever.

1304
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 3: Like.

1305
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 8: I think he was a mercenary who sold out to

1306
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 8: whoever was willing to give him the most at that time.

1307
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 2: That's kind of my and somehow he's been able to

1308
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 2: infiltrate academia, the medical community, obviously, politics, so tech on

1309
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 2: a world scale, the tech business, you know, all the

1310
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 2: DNA stuff that we're learning about. There's a couple of

1311
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 2: things that I do want to just deny or let's

1312
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 2: just like say it's not probably true and we can

1313
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 2: just cough it up to the garbage can that it

1314
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 2: should go into, and then my mind could be put

1315
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 2: to rest. The word pizza that appears so so, so

1316
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 2: so much. If we remember back in the day it

1317
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 2: was pizzagate. At this point, I was completely like not

1318
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 2: paying attention to anything QAnon like I missed on that

1319
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 2: that was not on my purview. It all sounded, honestly

1320
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:16,799
Speaker 2: like crazy talk. It's somebody lost their life over it.

1321
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 2: It just seemed like a lot to chatter, and I

1322
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 2: literally shut it out. Now, welcome to these Epstein files release,

1323
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 2: and the word pizza does seem to be code for something.

1324
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 3: So curious what your thoughts are on that.

1325
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, So I think it's important that we separate Pizzagate

1326
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 8: from the word pizza and the files. That's number one,

1327
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 8: because pizza Gate was a very dangerous and still is

1328
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:38,559
Speaker 8: a very dangerous conspiracy theory. Like you said, someone lost

1329
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 8: their lives. But even outside of that, a number of

1330
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 8: restaurant owners of people across the country where threatened death

1331
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 8: threats harassed. I mean, so separating the two. The word

1332
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:50,800
Speaker 8: pizza appears a lot in the Epstein files. Now I

1333
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 8: don't know if it was code or not. It could

1334
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 8: have been for code. But I do think there's one

1335
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:56,639
Speaker 8: nugget that the public that not many like. If you're

1336
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:58,640
Speaker 8: not following the Epstein files, close so you don't know this.

1337
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:01,759
Speaker 8: But Andrew formerly know as Prince, there is a famous

1338
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:05,160
Speaker 8: photo that many people know of him Gallainne Maxwell and

1339
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:08,680
Speaker 8: Virginia Giufrey back in the early two thousands, and for

1340
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 8: years he denied that that photo was real or he

1341
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 8: said that it was altered in some way. And he

1342
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 8: said that the night that that photo was taken, he

1343
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 8: was at a pizza restaurant, right like everything he gets you,

1344
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 8: not a Chinese restaurant, not he was whatever, like he

1345
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 8: was at a pizza restaurant.

1346
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 3: He couldn't have picked another another any word, honestly, any word.

1347
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 6: But that is it possible though that it's was part

1348
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 6: of the vernacular of the cover up, though you know.

1349
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:42,320
Speaker 8: Like possible. I mean, as an attorney, I've seen criminal

1350
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 8: cases where like you use code words and prosecutors have

1351
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 8: to on decode your code words. I mean that is normal.

1352
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 8: I mean it happens. I don't want to say normal,

1353
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:54,120
Speaker 8: but it happens in many criminal cases. So them using

1354
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 8: pizza as vernacular as code for something else could very

1355
01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 8: well be true. There could be more than just pizza

1356
01:09:59,400 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 8: there too.

1357
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 2: There's a lot of pizza talk, and a lot of

1358
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 2: grape soda talk, and a lot of jerky talk. So

1359
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 2: those are just three words that are being speculated. This

1360
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 2: is the chatter, conspiracy chatter or otherwise that pizza stands

1361
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 2: for children or young people or girls, but I'm sure

1362
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,760
Speaker 2: boys as well, and jerky standing for flesh.

1363
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 3: And grape soda I don't know.

1364
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 2: I don't know what that stands for, but there's a

1365
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:25,839
Speaker 2: lot of grape soda drinking happening in the files.

1366
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, I don't know either. I mean that's probably, like

1367
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 8: I try to say above, all of these kind of

1368
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 8: possible conspiracies when I'm reporting on them, just because if

1369
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:36,639
Speaker 8: I go down and I have like personally gone down

1370
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 8: the rabbit hole every now and then and every time

1371
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 8: I do that, I feel like it takes me so

1372
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 8: long to dig myself out of it. And there are

1373
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 8: times where like I walk up to my wife and

1374
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 8: I like explain to her what I'm saying, and to

1375
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 8: me it sounds completely rational and completely like, yes, I

1376
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 8: have the smoking gun and she's like, Aaron, you are

1377
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 8: so what are you talking?

1378
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 3: That's me right here, that's her.

1379
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 2: Every single time I talk about Epstein, that is the

1380
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 2: exact loop you just describe.

1381
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 8: As yourself that you're one hundred percent right and it's

1382
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:05,680
Speaker 8: this big thing and like, yeah, it happens all the

1383
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 8: time to me too, So.

1384
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, great, So we're going to decode on that front.

1385
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 2: And then back to the names, body, who did you

1386
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:13,840
Speaker 2: Who were you most curious about?

1387
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:15,600
Speaker 3: The tech bros?

1388
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 6: Honestly and the whole you know, science part of things

1389
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:22,600
Speaker 6: and whatnot, Planteer and whatnot. But it's too much to

1390
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,640
Speaker 6: go into right now. But I was very interested in

1391
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 6: all that. But additionally, the wroth Childs. The wroth Childs

1392
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 6: are really interesting. They were European banking dynasty. They you know,

1393
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 6: collectively they were billionaires historically known for global influence and

1394
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 6: finances and whatnot, you know, everybody knows who the roth

1395
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:46,160
Speaker 6: Childs are, and there's this connection to Epstein. Now right,

1396
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 6: there's this connection. Do you have any thoughts on the

1397
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 6: roth Childs.

1398
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 8: Well, So this is another one that you have to

1399
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:54,639
Speaker 8: be very careful on because you could get into anti

1400
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:55,920
Speaker 8: Semitic kind of conspiracy.

1401
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:57,080
Speaker 3: Oh no, I don't want to do that.

1402
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:01,000
Speaker 8: And I'm not saying you are, but you because you

1403
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:04,160
Speaker 8: could say Rothschild's global network and then the Jews control

1404
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 8: the world, and it's like get.

1405
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:07,800
Speaker 3: You get yeah very quickly.

1406
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 8: Rothschilds are an interesting one because they are listed in

1407
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:12,760
Speaker 8: the files a ton and it's not just like when

1408
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 8: you say the rothschild is a whole family, to be

1409
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 8: a very big family, it's not just one. What's interesting

1410
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 8: to me is that in the recent House Oversight deposition

1411
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 8: of Richard Kahan, Jeffrey Epstein's longtime accountant, Richard Kahn said

1412
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 8: there were five people or five groups of people who

1413
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 8: were very influential when it came to the money. The

1414
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 8: Rothschilds were one of them. Les Wexner was one of them,

1415
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,599
Speaker 8: and then there are three others. So the Rothschild's helped

1416
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 8: fund Jeffrey Epstein's operation we don't know exactly how much.

1417
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:42,880
Speaker 8: We don't know exactly to what end. We do know

1418
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,719
Speaker 8: that money was flowing from the Rothschild family to Jeffrey

1419
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 8: Epstein for what still not fully clear because a lot

1420
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 8: of these are redacted. We don't have a lot of

1421
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 8: the bank records, so there still needs to be more

1422
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 8: digging involved there.

1423
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:55,840
Speaker 2: And by the way, it's just because Jeffrey Epstein was

1424
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 2: representing himself as somebody who was representing the Rothschilds, you know,

1425
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 2: that also may not have been true. He also might

1426
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 2: have just been straight fronting. You know, this is a

1427
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 2: guy that was kind of a grifter. It seems like,

1428
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 2: you know, he was a high class grift. So he

1429
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 2: was probably saying he represented all kinds of people and

1430
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 2: doing all kinds of stuff which led to another deal.

1431
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:19,599
Speaker 2: Like he he sort of talked a big game.

1432
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, just.

1433
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 6: Because he used his social connections, you know, to make

1434
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:27,640
Speaker 6: him like fluff fluff himself up. Which is why I

1435
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 6: think Glen Nextwell was so important, you know, because she

1436
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 6: had all those connections. She was the connector of all

1437
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:37,640
Speaker 6: those things. And so it could be that the Rothchilds

1438
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 6: are like what we don't even you know, but he

1439
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,800
Speaker 6: kind of was like, oh yeah, I represent them.

1440
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 8: We also and I think that's a good point on

1441
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 8: Glaine Glene is like if you hear Gallaane speak, she's

1442
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:52,280
Speaker 8: like this prim and prop english woman who like can

1443
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:56,760
Speaker 8: connect with anyone, is very like friendly, is very kind

1444
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 8: of smooth around the edge of Jeffrey Epsky. You look

1445
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:01,559
Speaker 8: at him and you you hear him talk in these interviews,

1446
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:05,400
Speaker 8: I mean he's this like rugged, rugged grifter, right without delaying,

1447
01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 8: there is no Jeffrey so that that is.

1448
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 5: But I have to say, and in the interviews I've seen,

1449
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:17,960
Speaker 5: I feel like how Epstein presents is very sort of disarming,

1450
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 5: and even in stuff that's been in the files, his

1451
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:26,960
Speaker 5: correspondence with people dupak Chopra, Yes, you know, people are

1452
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:29,960
Speaker 5: really bearing their souls to Epstein. So I have a

1453
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:32,639
Speaker 5: feeling there was something. Again, I don't know if it

1454
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:33,559
Speaker 5: was disarming or what.

1455
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 8: Probably I mean he was he was probably a master manipulator,

1456
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 8: right totally.

1457
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 2: He's so charismatic by even survivors say that that he

1458
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 2: was so charismatic and frankly kind of likable, even though

1459
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 2: an abuser to them directly. Gilayney often say was like

1460
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 2: the mean one that even Jeffrey Epstein, while an abuser,

1461
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:54,599
Speaker 2: somehow was charming.

1462
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:55,360
Speaker 4: MM.

1463
01:14:56,080 --> 01:15:00,679
Speaker 3: Well, listen, please stick around. Aaron parness Is stick around,

1464
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:01,679
Speaker 3: so you should too.

1465
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:05,599
Speaker 5: And we're going to shift to focus on some surveillance data,

1466
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 5: some growing tension between privacy and protection impacting all of us.

1467
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:21,720
Speaker 5: So keep it here. True Crime Tonight.

1468
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:27,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1469
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:30,559
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here still

1470
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 2: with body move in and Courtney Armstrong, Pappy Easter and

1471
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 2: passover everyone. So listen, We're going to continue our conversation

1472
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 2: with Aaron Parnis. He's an extraordinary lawyer and independent journalist.

1473
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 2: Please check him out on all of his socials. I

1474
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 2: watch him on Instagram, bodies, on TikTok. He does great

1475
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 2: work all day, join his five million plus listeners and

1476
01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 2: viewers and all the things.

1477
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 3: So he's really the mind of our news generation.

1478
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:02,480
Speaker 6: Love his content because it's it's like such complicated topics

1479
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:07,680
Speaker 6: right in these little itty bitty like bite sized segments

1480
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:11,640
Speaker 6: right yes, easy to understand, very digestible. I don't have

1481
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 6: to sit and watch an hour's long channel I guess

1482
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 6: on TV to get the same information that I'm getting

1483
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:21,880
Speaker 6: from Aaron in like thirty seconds.

1484
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:22,280
Speaker 3: I love it.

1485
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:24,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a real gift. If some call him the

1486
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:29,040
Speaker 2: Walter Cronkite of his generation. I saw that on his Wikipedia.

1487
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 2: Can you imagine what a great compliment?

1488
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:33,640
Speaker 8: That is an awesome compliment. But I mean, if I

1489
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 8: live up to just ten percent of.

1490
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:40,519
Speaker 2: You are well on your way. So, Courtney, what would

1491
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:42,760
Speaker 2: you like to ask Aaron next?

1492
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 3: Oh?

1493
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:46,679
Speaker 5: My goodness, well, I want to put your your legal

1494
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:48,719
Speaker 5: degree to some work.

1495
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 3: Oh put the least.

1496
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 5: Technology is advancing and it's just roaring ahead from a

1497
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 5: legal standpoint. Do you feel like our laws, protections and

1498
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:04,480
Speaker 5: regulation are keeping pace with technology and its advancement.

1499
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 8: No, and I mean not. A can't and it can't

1500
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 8: because of the system we live in. We have a

1501
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:16,839
Speaker 8: system that is meant that is that that was designed

1502
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 8: to encourage grid law. Right. You look at the congress

1503
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 8: past fifteen laws last year fifteen that's it technology right,

1504
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:32,599
Speaker 8: and that's about one per month. Whereas technology, I mean AI.

1505
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 8: They had not even touched AI regulation. And I'm falling

1506
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:37,040
Speaker 8: for AI now.

1507
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 3: I think for AI. Last night I thought, I know,

1508
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 3: punched the monkey.

1509
01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 2: I even thought I was on board with Punch and

1510
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 2: his he had a girlfriend and he was at the

1511
01:17:47,160 --> 01:17:49,040
Speaker 2: zoo and I sent it to body and she like

1512
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 2: coughed it right back to me and said, punches doesn't

1513
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,679
Speaker 2: carry that a ring and tang around that's half the size.

1514
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:57,600
Speaker 3: You got fooled again. I'm like, oh, AI caught me.

1515
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, AI is getting me so no, no, it's it's

1516
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 8: really scary kind of where we're at as a nation

1517
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:03,719
Speaker 8: right now.

1518
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 2: It is, And is there something that we can do

1519
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 2: to help prevent that, because it does seem like there

1520
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 2: is a lack of regulation happening behind the scenes right

1521
01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:14,480
Speaker 2: now as well, and lawmakers who are benefiting maybe financially

1522
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 2: from AI or this next stage of AI, if we're

1523
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:22,400
Speaker 2: back to the follow the money train, that's where my

1524
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:24,559
Speaker 2: brain goes. And that gets a really nerve wracking too,

1525
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:27,160
Speaker 2: because it's happening kind of quietly around us without us

1526
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:28,400
Speaker 2: necessarily weighing in.

1527
01:18:28,760 --> 01:18:30,160
Speaker 8: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head

1528
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 8: right there. You have AI spending millions of dollars to

1529
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:38,719
Speaker 8: elect candidates that won't regulate AI. They get into Congress,

1530
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 8: they don't regulate AI, and so it's like this screwed

1531
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 8: up cycle. The best way to do it is both

1532
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 8: for candidates who are up against AI money. But in

1533
01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:51,719
Speaker 8: our political system, how do you beat millions of dollars?

1534
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 8: It's very difficult. It's very difficult. So the answer is, unfortunately.

1535
01:18:56,439 --> 01:18:59,479
Speaker 2: Not and how do we handle that just a media

1536
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:02,960
Speaker 2: coverage alone, you know, with all of these mergers happening,

1537
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:06,160
Speaker 2: and Ellison taking over TikTok and also all of these

1538
01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:09,519
Speaker 2: huge mergers. You know, having single families or single people

1539
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:14,559
Speaker 2: having this much media under their control, that can be

1540
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:17,240
Speaker 2: a little scary as well. Not saying that it will be,

1541
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:19,560
Speaker 2: but it does raise a few eyebrows.

1542
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:22,720
Speaker 8: No, it's terrifying. I mean I am terrified of it.

1543
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 8: But I will say this, I actually think it's having

1544
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:28,519
Speaker 8: an adverse effect because the rise of independent media to

1545
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:31,559
Speaker 8: the point, I mean, like so many independent podcasts, so

1546
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 8: many independent journalists. Major media companies are losing good talent

1547
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:39,439
Speaker 8: every single day, and so they're making CBS and CNN

1548
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:42,320
Speaker 8: and those of the world are more obsolete. So it's

1549
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:44,439
Speaker 8: actually having an adverse effect in my opinion.

1550
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:45,960
Speaker 3: I agree with you more.

1551
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 6: I agree, I agree totally. So we cover true crime

1552
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 6: mainly on our show, but we also cover a lot

1553
01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:56,920
Speaker 6: of constitutional and we cover law, a lot of law,

1554
01:19:57,439 --> 01:20:00,479
Speaker 6: and I'm a huge Fourth Amendment person, and a lot

1555
01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:02,760
Speaker 6: of the cases that we cover good. Okay, So on

1556
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:04,360
Speaker 6: a lot of the paces that we cover, there's this

1557
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:09,719
Speaker 6: growing tension right between safety and surveillance. And for example,

1558
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:12,679
Speaker 6: in the case of missing eighty four year old Nancy

1559
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:15,639
Speaker 6: Guthrie out of twos on Arizona, the FBI was able

1560
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 6: to pull video footage from her Nest camera even though

1561
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:23,080
Speaker 6: she didn't pay for the subscription and have the cloud services.

1562
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 6: And you know, in cases involving exploitation of children on

1563
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 6: the Internet, Rollblocks has now implemented this facial scanning technology

1564
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:37,360
Speaker 6: to identify children and how old they are to put

1565
01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:40,439
Speaker 6: them in appropriate chat groups. What do you make of

1566
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:43,479
Speaker 6: all the apparent loss of privacy in the context of

1567
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 6: preventing crime?

1568
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:47,719
Speaker 8: Three words, history repeats itself.

1569
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:48,479
Speaker 5: Okay.

1570
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:51,519
Speaker 8: The conversation we're having now is the same conversation we

1571
01:20:51,560 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 8: had right after nine to eleven, just more technology, just

1572
01:20:55,320 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 8: with more technology. Right, the United States of America is

1573
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:04,439
Speaker 8: a surveillance state. Anyone who says otherwise is lyned to you.

1574
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:08,680
Speaker 8: Everything you do is surveilled. And I think that's what

1575
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 8: Unfortunately a lot of people don't get is that when

1576
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:14,679
Speaker 8: you open up an account on any social media platform,

1577
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:17,439
Speaker 8: you have to read through dozens and dozens of pages

1578
01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:19,679
Speaker 8: of terms and conditions. Not a single person is reading

1579
01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 8: those terms. But if you've read those terms, you're giving

1580
01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:26,160
Speaker 8: away your entire data the moment you sign up for that,

1581
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:28,360
Speaker 8: and that data will then be sold and will be

1582
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:30,680
Speaker 8: sold and could eventually get in front of the get

1583
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:33,720
Speaker 8: sold to the federal government. Even I mean, like when

1584
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 8: you get a ring camera. To purchase that ring camera,

1585
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:42,080
Speaker 8: that is a contract. There are terms and conditions in

1586
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:44,280
Speaker 8: that contract to purchase a ring camera. There are terms

1587
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:47,599
Speaker 8: of conditions to download that app. I mean, I'm not surprised,

1588
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 8: and people shouldn't be surprised, and that's why people need

1589
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:51,439
Speaker 8: to just go into this eyes wide open. I'm a

1590
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 8: kind of surrealist in the sense that I understand that

1591
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:57,719
Speaker 8: anything I do online is going to be there forever

1592
01:21:57,920 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 8: and can be accessed by anyone. And that's how I

1593
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:03,519
Speaker 8: keep it going right, keep it clean, and I keep

1594
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:06,680
Speaker 8: it clean. And so it's a very scary situation. It's

1595
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 8: a very scary state of affairs that we're in, but

1596
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 8: it's it's where we're at. I mean, you walk through

1597
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:15,120
Speaker 8: an airport, they're facial recognition scanners in some airports now, right,

1598
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 8: like you when you're that's data collection. It's all data collections.

1599
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:22,200
Speaker 8: So it's there's nothing. And unfortunately, what they do is

1600
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:26,639
Speaker 8: they make it so that you can't live a normal

1601
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:30,320
Speaker 8: life and be integrated in society if you disagree with it,

1602
01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 8: if you say tomorrow, I'm not going to come to

1603
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 8: what's happening at airports in terms of okay, you're not

1604
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 8: going to fly. You don't like.

1605
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:39,920
Speaker 3: Write, like then you can't write, no problem.

1606
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:43,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, make it so hard where like truly you can

1607
01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:45,960
Speaker 8: live off the grid, like what's the name Ted Kaczinski did?

1608
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:53,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, yeah, our nuctions yea options so positive, right,

1609
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:55,679
Speaker 2: But like you know, I don't even have TikTok anymore.

1610
01:22:55,840 --> 01:23:00,559
Speaker 2: I've deleted by chat, GPT and again, but we're it

1611
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:03,680
Speaker 2: makes no difference, probably because I'm still googling for information

1612
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:06,080
Speaker 2: and I'm doing tons of research on my computer. So

1613
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 2: you know, I'm like cutting off a finger when it

1614
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:12,160
Speaker 2: really the entire body has been contaminated.

1615
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:17,320
Speaker 3: So the end, I cannot delete TikTok. I'm too addicted

1616
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:17,959
Speaker 3: to the algorithm.

1617
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:21,400
Speaker 8: It's just okay, you delete a TikTok with your Facebook.

1618
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:24,519
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's like exactly one hundred percent.

1619
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:26,880
Speaker 2: And I still, I still I try not to post

1620
01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:30,800
Speaker 2: because we do so many terrifying shows about children and

1621
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 2: you know, them being seen on social media and trying

1622
01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:34,640
Speaker 2: to keep out of that.

1623
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 3: So I'm not as fun on social media anymore.

1624
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 2: But I still enjoy it, and I love seeing buds

1625
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:41,960
Speaker 2: from home in high school and all the all the

1626
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:44,080
Speaker 2: positive stuff that comes with it. But I know in

1627
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:46,439
Speaker 2: doing so, I have signed right up for all the

1628
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:47,200
Speaker 2: bad stuff too.

1629
01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:48,120
Speaker 3: You make a.

1630
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:51,479
Speaker 2: Really, very very good point, though, just to underscore it.

1631
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:55,599
Speaker 2: It's simple and probably exactly what I personally needed to hear.

1632
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:58,479
Speaker 3: We're getting yeah, you're getting watched.

1633
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:00,640
Speaker 2: Keep it clean, you know, if you're going to put

1634
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:02,800
Speaker 2: it in text and put it in your dms and

1635
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:05,320
Speaker 2: all this stuff, just assume that it's going to get

1636
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:08,439
Speaker 2: red and that keeps it pretty black and white.

1637
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:10,639
Speaker 6: I have a question, it's more on the lighter side

1638
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:13,479
Speaker 6: of things, But Aaron, you are so popular, right, and

1639
01:24:13,600 --> 01:24:17,240
Speaker 6: especially popular with the people that are younger, right Gen Z,

1640
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:20,479
Speaker 6: Gen Alpha, even millennials and Gen X people, boomers, even

1641
01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:25,720
Speaker 6: I guess right, But specifically, you're shaping how a new

1642
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:28,599
Speaker 6: generation understands the news. I believe that you're shaping that

1643
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 6: me too. Does that responsibility ever feel overwhelming for you?

1644
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:32,960
Speaker 8: Yeah? All the time?

1645
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:33,719
Speaker 3: Does it?

1646
01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1647
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:35,599
Speaker 3: To be a certain way?

1648
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:39,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, Well, it's an immense responsibility to always be right.

1649
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 8: And it's not just because for all the people that

1650
01:24:43,040 --> 01:24:44,400
Speaker 8: love the work I do, I have the same amount

1651
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 8: of people who want to bring me down, and so

1652
01:24:47,520 --> 01:24:50,519
Speaker 8: I have to always be one hundred and ten percent right,

1653
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:53,600
Speaker 8: one hundred percent verified, and when I'm wrong, I have

1654
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:54,880
Speaker 8: to be the first one to admit it.

1655
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:58,080
Speaker 2: And it's totally fair, and you know that's okay. By

1656
01:24:58,080 --> 01:24:59,479
Speaker 2: the way, do you get a lot of hate? I

1657
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:02,559
Speaker 2: can't imagine that. That makes me mad?

1658
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:06,759
Speaker 8: Really, I mean I get jealousy, but also like death threats.

1659
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:11,400
Speaker 8: I mean, I know, Yeah.

1660
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:11,680
Speaker 3: I'm surprised.

1661
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:17,680
Speaker 5: You're surprised, only because I'm surprised people aren't nice online.

1662
01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:19,639
Speaker 3: You're nice online.

1663
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:22,080
Speaker 2: People are nice to like I would be heartbroken and

1664
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 2: that would be so upsetting. Yeah, you have to be

1665
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:28,640
Speaker 2: a thick skin And does that do you have a

1666
01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:29,559
Speaker 2: thick skin by now?

1667
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:32,799
Speaker 8: Yeah? I mean, nothing bothers me anymore, like I don't

1668
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:33,800
Speaker 8: read my comments.

1669
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:36,479
Speaker 3: I don't like right, don't read the comments.

1670
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:38,519
Speaker 8: Many times. I thing, it is very easy to be

1671
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 8: kind of a faceless, nameless account and put anything you

1672
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:45,120
Speaker 8: want out there. It is very easy. People people want

1673
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 8: me to live in their heads, rent free.

1674
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,320
Speaker 2: Okay, no problem, I say the same thing. And by

1675
01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:51,920
Speaker 2: the way, we get critiques, and I get them all

1676
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:55,320
Speaker 2: the time. I really appreciate the feedback and I like

1677
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 2: the straight talk, and you know that seems constructive. I'm

1678
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 2: going to take that into account. But yeah, I never

1679
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:03,000
Speaker 2: even considered, well, listen, you send them my way. I'm

1680
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 2: gonna I'll have your back, will.

1681
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:09,080
Speaker 6: Take care of them, I promise you. I literally I'm aaron.

1682
01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:12,840
Speaker 6: I wait, three or four text messages from around two

1683
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 6: of them. Are your tiktoks.

1684
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:19,360
Speaker 3: On you to save the world? Please, I genuinely am.

1685
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 2: I do think there is a new crop of big

1686
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,360
Speaker 2: brains that are coming up hot and that are you know,

1687
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 2: you know, measured and reasonable.

1688
01:26:27,600 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 8: You should do a project together now that I would

1689
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:33,639
Speaker 8: love it, like the rich Ins case.

1690
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 2: Oh, let's start it tomorrow. Yes, let's do we're going

1691
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:39,479
Speaker 2: to do Mommy hears you're in our head. Yes, we've

1692
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 2: seen simbotico, But yeah, I think it's an important time

1693
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:44,479
Speaker 2: because I think you know, in the world of true

1694
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:46,640
Speaker 2: crime too, and we talk about this to nauseum. You

1695
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:50,080
Speaker 2: want to be productive, right, So in all the politics,

1696
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:52,800
Speaker 2: Epstein files and the UFOs are coming and there's going

1697
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 2: to be disclosure in two weeks and what's the syg ups.

1698
01:26:55,160 --> 01:26:58,160
Speaker 2: It's all very fatiguing, and you know that's our job

1699
01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:01,559
Speaker 2: is to kind of declutter that. And man, you do

1700
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:02,240
Speaker 2: that really well.

1701
01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 8: Thank you. I appreciate it's not easy, but just got

1702
01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:05,840
Speaker 8: to do it.

1703
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:09,920
Speaker 2: And if you're and how do we protect ourselves identity wise?

1704
01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:11,800
Speaker 2: So if you're getting death threats and things like that,

1705
01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:14,360
Speaker 2: which is terrible, is there something that we should be

1706
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:16,240
Speaker 2: aware of because our listeners ask us a lot to

1707
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:18,559
Speaker 2: us as well. People just want to feel like they

1708
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:21,320
Speaker 2: can disappear and not have their address out there or

1709
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:22,960
Speaker 2: be easily fundable.

1710
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:26,720
Speaker 8: Their tools to do that, I mean, like you can

1711
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:29,840
Speaker 8: contact your property records of your state, right it's not

1712
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:31,800
Speaker 8: they don't make it easy for you, but then you

1713
01:27:31,800 --> 01:27:34,280
Speaker 8: have to like prove that you're getting some kind of

1714
01:27:34,280 --> 01:27:36,960
Speaker 8: threats and stuff. But their avenues to do it, I

1715
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:39,839
Speaker 8: mean I have companies wipe my information off the Internet

1716
01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:41,120
Speaker 8: from data brokers every day.

1717
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:46,920
Speaker 2: But so sure, yeah, that's fair, that's fair. Are we

1718
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 2: going to see a UFO disclosure in your opinion anytime soon?

1719
01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:53,120
Speaker 8: Maybe? Maybe?

1720
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:56,240
Speaker 2: I mean, I know the Russian things coming out this week,

1721
01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:58,320
Speaker 2: so you're already in my head on that one, and

1722
01:27:58,479 --> 01:28:00,559
Speaker 2: we were just saying that before the break, So I'm

1723
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:03,120
Speaker 2: anticipating that this week as well. That tracks for me

1724
01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:05,880
Speaker 2: on the Epstein side, that the media are falling out

1725
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 2: of the sky and hitting Ohio today, to me, also

1726
01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:10,599
Speaker 2: tracks as a scene center if in.

1727
01:28:10,479 --> 01:28:12,639
Speaker 3: Fact you want to have either a.

1728
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:17,280
Speaker 2: Real alien disclosure or pretend one. I don't know what's

1729
01:28:17,320 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 2: real anymore, but I give it about six days. I

1730
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:24,519
Speaker 2: just feel like the stage is getting set. Either that

1731
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 2: or my algorithm is playing tricks on me yet again.

1732
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:30,240
Speaker 8: It's coming. It's coming, I hope. So I want to

1733
01:28:30,280 --> 01:28:31,760
Speaker 8: know about aliens me too.

1734
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:33,360
Speaker 3: I'm excited about that.

1735
01:28:34,680 --> 01:28:37,559
Speaker 6: So, Aaron, you graduate from George Washington University of Law

1736
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:40,680
Speaker 6: school at twenty one. I mean, that's remarkable to me.

1737
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:44,439
Speaker 6: How does your legal background impact your reporting?

1738
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:48,080
Speaker 8: So it actually helps tremendously because it allows me to

1739
01:28:48,280 --> 01:28:51,680
Speaker 8: take these really complex topics and read them, digest them,

1740
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:54,240
Speaker 8: and like post very quickly, so like I know what's

1741
01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:56,600
Speaker 8: important and I know it's not important, especially on the

1742
01:28:56,680 --> 01:29:00,560
Speaker 8: legal stuff, like I know the terms, I know the players,

1743
01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:02,519
Speaker 8: like I I've been in a court room, I dealt

1744
01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:05,839
Speaker 8: with some of these personalities and so it actually it

1745
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:08,320
Speaker 8: helps me digest information very easily.

1746
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:11,320
Speaker 6: Well, and you explain it so well. We We have

1747
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:13,760
Speaker 6: an attorney on our show too, every every week, and

1748
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:16,280
Speaker 6: he's he's a former prosecutor and he's able to do

1749
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:17,800
Speaker 6: the same thing for us. He's able to take these

1750
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:21,879
Speaker 6: really complex verdicts and because we talk a lot of trials,

1751
01:29:22,320 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 6: he's able to take these really complex verdicts and kind

1752
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:26,760
Speaker 6: of like dumb it down for us. And I feel

1753
01:29:26,760 --> 01:29:28,479
Speaker 6: like that's what you do, you dumb it down for

1754
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:32,599
Speaker 6: me at least. Yeah, he's really complex. Yeah, makes makes

1755
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:35,360
Speaker 6: make it seem more like palatable and whatnot. You're so

1756
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:37,799
Speaker 6: good at it. And god, I can't believe you graduated

1757
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:40,479
Speaker 6: at twenty one. I didn't go to college until I

1758
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:41,160
Speaker 6: was thirty five.

1759
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:47,200
Speaker 2: Oh well, listen, there's no timeline. That isn't that's true.

1760
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:50,679
Speaker 2: It works always. That's exciting. Did you feel a little

1761
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:52,840
Speaker 2: out of step that will court go ahead, I know

1762
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 2: we're I'm going to hold in hostage hostage, Aaron.

1763
01:29:58,360 --> 01:29:58,719
Speaker 3: Listen.

1764
01:29:58,880 --> 01:30:01,320
Speaker 5: I know you you don't know me, but I'm known

1765
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:03,760
Speaker 5: as the buzzkill around here, and it's my turn to

1766
01:30:03,760 --> 01:30:06,080
Speaker 5: say thank you so much. We thank you so much

1767
01:30:06,120 --> 01:30:08,760
Speaker 5: for joining us, for breaking down all of these complex

1768
01:30:09,360 --> 01:30:12,759
Speaker 5: topics that we've been talking about. And listen, everyone should

1769
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:14,320
Speaker 5: be following Aaron's reporting.

1770
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:16,400
Speaker 3: I do mean that sincerely, and I do get it

1771
01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:18,679
Speaker 3: through you know, every day through Stephanie. You're amazing.

1772
01:30:19,240 --> 01:30:24,440
Speaker 5: And Aaron is available on Instagram, on TikTok and substack

1773
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:29,000
Speaker 5: at Aaron Harness, So find.

1774
01:30:28,760 --> 01:30:31,799
Speaker 3: Him where you want him. And we thank you again

1775
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:33,840
Speaker 3: for being here. Erin, keep fighting the fight.

1776
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, come back anytime. We can't wait to catch up. Yeah,

1777
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:37,960
Speaker 2: and go have a great night.

1778
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, go enjoy your night. What a great.

1779
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:45,240
Speaker 2: Show, everybody, Amanda and Erin as always fantastic. Thank you

1780
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:47,200
Speaker 2: so much for joining us. And tomorrow we have a

1781
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:49,800
Speaker 2: huge show. We're doing a deep dive into this so

1782
01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:54,640
Speaker 2: called air Quotes wellness group, now exposed as a cult,

1783
01:30:54,880 --> 01:30:57,400
Speaker 2: the shocking case behind One Taste.

1784
01:30:57,560 --> 01:31:00,840
Speaker 3: So happy holiday everybody. We hope you have a great

1785
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 3: rest of the night. Good night,