1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 2: These filers of the Dead, vicious violators of the universe 3 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 2: La Finish School, two of history's most diabolic demons, selling 4 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: catavers and corpses to the sinister doctor Knox for his 5 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 2: forbidden experiments. 6 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: A century after the murders, William Burke and William Hare 7 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: found a home in cinema and radio Good Evening. 8 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 3: This is Crime Classics. I am Thomas Hyland with another 9 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 3: true story of crime. If a body need a body 10 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 3: just called Burken Hair, I'm. 11 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 4: Tired of waiting for him to die. Burke, go locat him. 12 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: Yes, these helped create the mythology of Burke and Hare, 13 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: but what has really driven the legend is the sheer 14 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: number of tourist attractions in Old Town. Garishly dressed guides 15 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: draped in period costume weiit on a designated corner for tourists. 16 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 5: Even in the rain. 17 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: Many of them are factual, even entertaining, like this one 18 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:21,919 Speaker 1: from the City of Edinburgh Tours. 19 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 6: My name is Burke, William Burke, and I was hind 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,839 Speaker 6: on that twenty January eighth, eighteen twenty high. 21 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: But historian Janet Philips says that like any legend, there's 22 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: quite a lot of misinformation. Tell me about sort of 23 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: the things that pop up that people think. 24 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 7: At number one they were grave robbers and that they 25 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 7: started off robbing graves and then got losy went to murder. 26 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 7: Number two is probably that they were Scottish. Even my 27 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 7: son's school. Actually they did famous Scottish people in history 28 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 7: and Burkenhair appeared that. 29 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 5: If you've forgotten, Burke and Hare were Irish. 30 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: And I could attest to that first myth thanks to 31 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: a taxi driver I met in Edinburgh. Do you know 32 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: match Valberg? 33 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 8: And here, yeah, what do you know? 34 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 9: The gas of interest because the bodies. 35 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: If you couldn't understand him, he said they were the 36 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: ones who dug up the graves because they ran out 37 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 1: of bodies. 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 7: They feature in Edinburgh Dungeons. Obviously, there's several, several pubs, 39 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 7: several restaurants. It's a couple of lap dancing pubs called 40 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 7: the birken Hair. 41 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 5: Actually it's really just one. 42 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: It's in Westport, where most of the murders took place, 43 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: and the sign reads Burke and Hare pole dancing, lap dancing. 44 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: No subtlety and advertising there. 45 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 7: We do certainly seem to have an industry that exploits 46 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 7: that side of Edinburgh. It's tricky because their history stories. 47 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 7: You dig them up and as you as the stories 48 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 7: are told, they get changed and more defied. And I'm 49 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 7: not sure that some of the tourists that come here 50 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 7: and hear these stories are hearing what actually happened. But 51 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 7: then that's how myths and legends pass over time. 52 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: All of these tours label Edinburgh as the genesis for odd, 53 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: creepy true crime stories. As I mentioned before, In eighteen 54 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: eighty four, author Robert Louis Stephenson based his famous short 55 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: story The Body Snatcher on Birken Hare, and two years 56 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: later he wrote an even more disturbing book called The 57 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: Strange Case of Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde. That story 58 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: was based on another famous Scottish criminal who roamed Edinburgh 59 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: at night in the late seventeen eighties. Okay, tell me 60 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: about Deacon Brody. 61 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 5: I find the story so interesting. 62 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 7: Deacon Brodie then was somebody who was actually an upstanding 63 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 7: citizen during the day, and during the evening he went 64 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 7: out and he broke in to houses and stole things. 65 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 7: He was a burglar. So he was the inspiration for 66 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 7: the story of jeccylin Hyde in the idea that you 67 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 7: could be a respectable citizen cabinet maker during the day, 68 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 7: but in the evening you were completely different. 69 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: That there's a little Jekyl and Hyde and all of 70 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: us has always fascinated me. In fact, the title of 71 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: this podcast, tenfold more Wicked, comes from Jeckyll and Hyde. 72 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: It's the moment that doctor Jekyl realizes how powerful his 73 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: potion has become. He says, I knew myself at the 74 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: first breath of this new life to be more wicked, 75 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: tenfold more wicked, sold a slave to my original evil. 76 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: But the phrase to me really refers to the duality 77 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: of someone's personality. How we might be born inherently good, 78 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: but we might also have a touch of bad, and 79 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: some of us have a little more than just a touch. 80 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: So the story of Birkenhair isn't just about murder and greed, 81 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: or at least it shouldn't be. But that's always been 82 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: the focus for most tours and many writers, and Janet 83 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: Philips says that inaccuracies can detract from the real story. 84 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 7: People come in and they talk absolutely rubbish about Birkenhair. 85 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 7: It's a bit like the tourism that's that's not the story. 86 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 7: You don't have to make it more gory. It's already 87 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 7: to people that are killing people for money, it's gory enough. 88 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: It was late October of eighteen twenty eight, and if 89 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: Burke Andhair weren't concerned about getting caught by now, they 90 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: should have been. In fact, they might have been planning 91 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: to expand their murdering scheme to Glasgow or Ireland. Burke 92 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: and another man were supposed to be traveling assassins of sorts. 93 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: Hare would stand Edinburgh to receive the bodies and deliver 94 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: them to doctor Knox. It was a horrid thought, but 95 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: the other man involved was interesting. A little more on 96 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: that later on. The people of old Town would have 97 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: been terrified if they knew that two serial killers had 98 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: murdered at least fifteen people that year. People were vanishing 99 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: with no trace left, and the police were never alarmed. 100 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: As immigrants moved in and out of a city in flux. 101 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: Birkenhare continued to search for victims for easy targets. That October, 102 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: Jamie Wilson's mother frantically searched the streets for her missing sun. 103 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: He had quite a large family in Edinburgh, and they 104 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: feared foul play. They were desperate to find him as 105 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: they begged for help from the dwellers of Old Town 106 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: and the police. The air in the city was dense, 107 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: with a putrid mix of smog, fog and garbage. It 108 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: seemed perversely fitting that Halloween was here a celebration of 109 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: mischief from sundown to sunrise. It was also a night 110 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: when people pretended to be something they weren't. In the 111 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: eighteen twenties, Halloween was called All Hallows Eve in Scotland, 112 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: the night before All Saints Day. It marked the end 113 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: of summer in the harvest season. The Scots would ward 114 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: off evil spirits by lighting bonfires and lanterns. Carving pumpkins 115 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: was an American tradition, but in Scotland they carved turnips 116 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: and turned them into spooky lanterns. Children disguised themselves as 117 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: ghouls and went door to door demanding treats. In an 118 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: odd note all of those, The Witchcraft Act of seventeen 119 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: thirty five forbade the consumption of pork pastries on Halloween. 120 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: It wasn't repealed until the nineteen fifties, and since then 121 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: sausage rolls have been a popular treat at Halloween parties 122 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: and gatherings, so for people in Old Town, Halloween was 123 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: also an excellent excuse for a party ahead of a 124 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: religious holiday. 125 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 7: Halloween is the is the night before All Saints Day, 126 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 7: so it was a religious holiday they had Halloween parties. 127 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: It was early in the afternoon on Friday, October thirty first. 128 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: William Burke was taking his ritual nip of whiskey at 129 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: Rhymer's store in Westport. He was chatting with the shop 130 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: boy when he spotted an old, hunch over woman entering 131 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: the store. She said that she needed help finding her son. 132 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 10: Burke picked up up in the pub. He used to 133 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 10: go to Don Rymer's at Westport and he picked up 134 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 10: a lady who was Sainte Bimunseed lady looking for her son, 135 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 10: who may very well have been somebody who was trying 136 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 10: to get away from her. 137 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: Her name was married Doherty, but Mary Campbell was her 138 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: married name. The old woman's only purpose for coming to 139 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: Edinburgh from Ireland was to find her son, Michael. She 140 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: said he was staying at a boarding house just outside 141 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: the city when she arrived that morning. Michael's landlady told 142 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: her that she had missed him by three days. Doherty 143 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: thought it best to spend the night in Edinburgh. She 144 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: strolled the streets along Old Town that morning and popped 145 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: into dark pubs looking for Michael all in hopes that 146 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: he had wandered there. 147 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 7: She was about to go. Bert got speaking to her 148 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 7: and discovered that her name was Doherty, which he said 149 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 7: was his mother's name, and does actually appear to have 150 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 7: been his mother's surname, so it's not some lie he 151 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 7: was telling it, but the claim that they had the 152 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 7: same name therefore must be related. 153 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: Mary Doherty smiled as Burke gushed about his family and hers. 154 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: She was frail and vulnerable, especially after walking up and 155 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: down the hills of Edinburgh all morning. Historians Owen Dudley 156 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: Edwards and Janet Thorpe say Burke's presence cheered her up, and. 157 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 10: Burke talked to her in Irish. Now think about the 158 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 10: effect of that. Here you're somebody whose natural language is Gaelic. 159 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 10: G seemed to have much less of a hold on 160 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 10: English than Burke himself had. And here was this lovely 161 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 10: voice talking to you in Irish, saying, you know, we're'll 162 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 10: be all right. We'll find him. 163 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 7: But he then said, you know it's late, don't go 164 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 7: come back. You can sleep at old place. We'll have 165 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 7: a Halloween party. So this is the sort of person 166 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 7: that Birkenhead looked for. They come into the town, they 167 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 7: didn't know anybody, and they were about to leave so 168 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 7: nobody would notice. 169 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: William Burke could be so charming, especially to an old 170 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: woman who was desperate to find her own son. Mary 171 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: Doherty took his arm and they walked along the cobblestones 172 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: to Burke's small house. Soon she was sitting by the 173 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: fire in Burke's dwelling, eating porridge and milk. A neighbor 174 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: stopped by and noticed that Burke and Nellie McDougall were inside. 175 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: John Brogan and his family had left a few weeks earlier. 176 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: You've got a stranger here, the neighbor told Nelly, and 177 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: nodded toward Mary Doherty. She replied that the woman was Irish, 178 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: a friend of Burke's. The old woman stayed quiet as 179 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: she warmed up by the fire. Mary drank whiskey slowly 180 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: at first. By the evening, Doherty was so hopelessly intoxicated 181 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: that when she tried to leave Burke's neighbor suggested she 182 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: stay inside so the police wouldn't arrest her. She slept 183 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: by the fireplace, sipping on rum. In the meantime, Burke 184 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: returned to Rhymer's store and found Hair drinking whiskey. Of course, 185 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: he told Hair that they had what he called a 186 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: shot in the house. Hair nodded and agreed to come 187 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: to Burke's home later that night. Before Hair arrived, Burke 188 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: would need to evict some other guests, relatives of theirs, 189 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: who had been living with them rent free for about 190 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: a week. It was Anne and James Gray and their child. 191 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: Burke didn't want any witnesses. He trusted no one, even 192 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: if they were family. He told the Grays that Doherty 193 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: was a relative of his mother. The Grays were being evicted. 194 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 7: So the Grays were related to the Burkes, and they 195 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 7: had been staying there not paying any rent, and he 196 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 7: obviously didn't want them a round when this was going 197 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 7: to happen, so he said to them, you need to 198 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 7: move out. You're not paying rent. I've arranged for you 199 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 7: to go and stay round another house, and he sent 200 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 7: them ount to a Hare's house where Hair had got 201 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 7: beds for them. 202 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: That evening, the Burkes quickly shuffled Anne and James Gray 203 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: out the door, even before they could gather all their belongings. 204 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: The Hairs and Burkes rejoiced with their new friend Mary Doherty. 205 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: They danced, drank spirits, and played music much of Halloween night. 206 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: Burke sang his favorite Irish ballads. 207 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 7: And they then had this Halloween party where there was 208 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 7: Burke and Nellie his wife. The Hares came round, the 209 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 7: people who lived on the floor of Brooke's house where 210 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 7: he was so missus law they came round, and John 211 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 7: Broken's son, there was a group of them. They all 212 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 7: came round and had this Halloween party which was drinking whiskey, 213 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 7: which was drinking whiskey and dancing. Burke was apparently really 214 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 7: good dancer and playing the flute and this sort of thing. 215 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: Mary Doherty even danced, but she was a bit too 216 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: enthusiastic and hurt her foot. By ten o'clock that Halloween night, 217 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: most of the neighbors had left, and then around eleven 218 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: they heard a huge ruckus inside the house, which wasn't 219 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: out of order considering how often Burke and Nelly fought, 220 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: but this involved another woman, a neighbor squinted through the 221 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: front door's keyhole. She thought she saw Nellie McDougall pouring 222 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: whiskey and Marry Doherty's mouth forcefully. After a while, it 223 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: grew quiet inside. The neighbor couldn't hear anything, so she 224 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: retreated to her own home. Burke and Hair both drank 225 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: more whisky, a lot more whisky, and then all of 226 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: their resentment toward each other. Their pent up anxiety seemed 227 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: to explode. William Burke struggled, digging his fingers into the 228 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: wooden planks of the floor. The hands of his much 229 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: younger rival gripped tightly around Burke's snack as he gasped 230 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: for breath. It wasn't that Hair was more capable, but 231 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: the unfortunate combination of whiskey and a quick temper frequently 232 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: quashed rational thinking. Burke glanced at Hare's black eyes and 233 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: recognized only seething rage. 234 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 7: The wives always left the room when these sorts of 235 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 7: things happen. 236 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: Smart Idea, except this time, when Nelly screamed for neighbors 237 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: to call the police. Hare was straddling Burke and strangling him. 238 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: Now Burke knew what his victims might have felt. No ahere, 239 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: no way to take a breath. 240 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 10: A nearby inhabitant heard the cries and then her footsteps 241 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 10: of the person being drawn back. Saw a policeman in 242 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 10: the distance, and the neighbor called for the policeman, but 243 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 10: he did not come, and the neighbor went his way. 244 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: Margaret Hare tried to calm neighbors, saying it was just 245 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: a drunken scuffle that would be over shortly. Most Scotts 246 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: knew that the police had serious crimes to deal with 247 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: on Halloween, and breaking up two angry irishmen in a 248 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: brawl was not one of them. As Burke and Hair 249 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: flailed about the room, Mary Doherty became alarmed. She had 250 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: grown fond of Burke, her distant relative, and her new 251 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: friend who had helped her that night. She stood up 252 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: and ordered Burke to sit down. She was concerned he 253 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: was going to get hurt. They responded by knocking the 254 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: old woman down. She tumbled over the stool. Soon she 255 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: realized she couldn't interfere safely, so she crept along the 256 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: straw covered floor looking for cover. 257 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 7: Somebody in that house then shouted murder and the person 258 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 7: who lived above he was a grosser and was concerned 259 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 7: about the contents of his shop. Did actually come down 260 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 7: and investigate what was happening. Looked around to see if 261 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 7: there was anything there. He tried to go and get police, 262 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 7: but there were no police around. His store looked fine, 263 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 7: nothing was interrupting his livelihood, and so he went back 264 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 7: to bed. 265 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: Suddenly, Burke and Haare stopped fighting. They looked over at 266 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: old Mary Doherty. Then Birkenhair decided to do what they 267 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: had done fifteen times before. They put aside their fight 268 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: their contempt for each other. There were more important things. 269 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 5: To do now. 270 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: They kindly suggested that she lay down, and when she obliged, 271 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: Burke positioned himself on top of her, pressing his leg 272 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: against her rib cage to compress her lungs. Hare put 273 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: his hand over her nose and mouth. There was a 274 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: slight struggle as her face became livid and blood flecked. 275 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: Saliva trickled out between her lips. One of the men 276 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: put his hands around her throat and squeezed until it 277 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: was over. But he squeezed a bit harder than usual, 278 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: maybe from the excitement of their fight. He left a 279 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: mark on her neck. Finally she was dead. They stripped 280 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: off Mary Doherty's clothes and hid her body under damp 281 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: straw inside the bed. There was a knock on the door. 282 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: The wives had returned. William Burke quickly walked down to 283 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: doctor Knox's dissection room and rapped on the door. The porter, 284 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: David Patterson, answered, Come with me, said Burke. Patterson bundled 285 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: up and both men moved swiftly through the chilly October air. 286 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: It was now officially All Saints Day, a day celebrating 287 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: the Saints and the connection between the living. 288 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 5: And the dead. 289 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: When the porter and Burke arrived at his home, he 290 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: pointed to the straw and said that they would have 291 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,719 Speaker 1: a body ready for him in the morning. Patterson nodded 292 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: and left. He didn't seem a bit concerned about the 293 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: implication that this could have been murder. When the Hairs 294 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: and the Burkes were alone, they continued drinking, They continued 295 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: dancing and playing the flute, and then they all fell 296 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: fast asleep as Mary Doherty's body lay nearby, buried in 297 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: the straw. And this is how each of their murders went. 298 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: They targeted a vulnerable person, plied them with spirits, burked them, 299 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: and tried to dispose of the body as quickly as possible. 300 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: It was a very reliable method, but not this time. 301 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: Anne and James Gray were perturbed with their relative, William Burke. 302 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: They were annoyed to see him when he knocked on 303 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: their door at the lodging house the next morning. Burke 304 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,239 Speaker 1: was anxious. He wanted to know how they slept, and 305 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: he was apologetic. Families should be treated better, he admitted. 306 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: He offered them a dram of spirits and then breakfast 307 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: back at his house. The Grays were wary, after all, 308 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: he had just ejected them last night, but they had 309 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: no hope of receiving a proper meal at Hare's boarding house, 310 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: and they had left some things behind yesterday, so they 311 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: accepted his invitation. Now remember that Burke and Hare had 312 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: not yet delivered Mary Doherty's body to doctor Knox's lab. 313 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 7: The Grays come back. They had left their child's stockings, 314 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 7: so missus Gray comes back. 315 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: When they arrived, the Grays met several other neighbors, along 316 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: with Nellie McDougall. Where is that little old woman? An 317 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: Gray asked Nellie. She was too drunk, replied Nelly, and 318 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: began acting rudely. 319 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 5: So we told her to leave. That seemed reasonable. 320 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: Anne Grey gripped the stem of a smoking pipe in 321 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: between her teeth as she began searching for those stockings. 322 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: She poked around the dingy bedroom. Burke was behaving oddly, 323 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: even for him. He was holding a bottle of whiskey 324 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: and sprinkling the contents on the bed, under the bed, 325 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: on the roof, even on his chest, almost like holy water. 326 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 5: He had no real explanation. It made no sense. 327 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: Anne Gray began looking for her child's stalking in another 328 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: section of the straw, and Burke became skittish. He ordered 329 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: her to go into another room, which she did, but 330 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: when Nelly and Burke stepped outside briefly, Anne took her 331 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: husband by the arm and returned to that suspicious pile 332 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: of straw in the corner. 333 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 7: She's looking through the straw at the end of the bed, 334 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 7: and she discovers this body. 335 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: The Gray saw Mary Doherty's arm first, the remainder of 336 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: her naked corpse. It was the little old lady from 337 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: last night, Anne told James. He lifted up her head. 338 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: There was blood on her mouth and ears. They were 339 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: disgusted and frightened. They buried her in the straw, hurriedly 340 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: gathering their things and their child and ran toward the door. 341 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: Anne Gray was ready to go. 342 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 7: To the police, but she then goes off going to 343 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 7: report it to the police, and she is then stopped 344 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 7: by the two wives, Nellie and missus Hare. 345 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: It wasn't very easy to be an honest, moral person, 346 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: not in old Town, and certainly not with these people. 347 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: The Grays knew how deceitful William Burke could be. James 348 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,479 Speaker 1: Gray glared at Nellie and demanded to know what was 349 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: buried deep inside the straw. When she tried to explain 350 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: that it was all innocent, he yelled at her, I 351 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: suppose you know very well what it is. Nellie fell 352 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: to her knee and tried desperately to stop him from leaving. 353 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 7: They offer her a large amount of money to just 354 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 7: let this go, So there is the evidence that the 355 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 7: wives knew exactly what was going on. 356 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: Nellie said that the little old lady had died from 357 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: too much alcohol, and Gray glanced at Nelly, a member 358 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: of her own family. She knew then that she was 359 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: looking at a murderer, or at least an accomplice. Nellie 360 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: quickly tried another tactic. She promised Anna and James a 361 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: new business venture, a regular, healthy income. The Grays were 362 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: nearly destitute. They desperately needed that money. It could have 363 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: changed their lives, so Nellie offered to cut them in. 364 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: They didn't respond, and Nellie cried, my god, I cannot 365 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: help it. Ann Gray had made a decision. 366 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 7: No, I'm going to go and report it to the police. 367 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 7: So missus Hare and missus Burke come back and they 368 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 7: tell birken Hair what has happened. 369 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: As the Grays made their way to the police station 370 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: in Old Town, Birkenhair panicked. They rushed to load Mary 371 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: Doherty's body into the tea chest. If there was no 372 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: corpse to be found, they couldn't be charged with a crime. 373 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: It would be the Gray's word against Theirs. Burke had 374 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: already alerted Knox's porter to expect a fresh body soon. 375 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: Birkenhair hired a street porter and tied a rope around 376 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: the chest's lid. 377 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 5: The man lifted it on his back. 378 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 1: A bit of gray hair fell through the lid, but 379 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: the man quickly shoved it back inside. Clearly this porter 380 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: had dealt with resurrectionists before. Birkenhare and both wives all 381 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: led him towards Surgeons Square, where David Patterson was expecting them, 382 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: and soon Old Mary Dockerty was gone. When the three 383 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,959 Speaker 1: men arrived at doctor Knox's dissection room, Dave Patterson answered 384 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: he handed them a down payment of five pounds. The 385 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: anatomus wouldn't be able to see the body's condition until Monday. 386 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: If it seemed suitable, then Burke and Hare could return 387 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: for the other five pounds. Burke was beside himself. He 388 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: might have felt the shakes from too much whiskey or 389 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: stress from a guilty conscience. Either way, he seemed to 390 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: know that this. 391 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 5: Was the end. 392 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 7: They need to get caught, because they will just carry 393 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 7: on murder unless somebody captures them. 394 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: It was about seven pm that night when James and 395 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: Anne Gray pushed open the doors of the police office 396 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: in Old Town. There they met a sergeant, who, along 397 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: with the constable, left with the Grays to return to 398 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: William Burke's home. The police officers were cautious, this seemed 399 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: like an outlandish story, even for people living in Westport, 400 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: and Gray led the sergeant and constable straight into the house, 401 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: past Burke and Nelly. She pointed to the straw bed 402 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: in a corner where Mary Doherty's body was laying. 403 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 7: There's nothing there. There's a single spot of blood on 404 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 7: the bed, which they can explain away. 405 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: Nellie McDougall said that a female lodger had slept on 406 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: that straw a few weeks earlier and had some cuts. 407 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: Nellie said she had never cleaned up the blood. The 408 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: police eyed Missus Gray, who was now branded a liar. 409 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 7: And in the conversation is brought to the police's attention 410 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 7: that the Grays were actually staying in Burke's house and 411 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 7: had been asked to leave because they weren't paying their rent. 412 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: The sergeant turned to William Burke, What became of your lodgers, 413 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: he asked. Burke pointed to James Gray and said, there's 414 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: one of them. We evicted them for bad behavior. That, 415 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: of course wasn't true, but William Burke was desperate now 416 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: and it seemed like the officers believed him. 417 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 10: So when the police were told about this they came 418 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 10: to make an investigation. They were suspicious of the story 419 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 10: rather than of the crime. It seemed to be a 420 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 10: strange kind of thing. That being said that now the 421 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 10: body had been there, another body wasn't anyhow, The police 422 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 10: knew Burke. There had been this time a couple of 423 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 10: months earlier, when Burke had found two policemen fighting with 424 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 10: a very drunken woman and she seemed to have been winning. 425 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: Nellie McDougall launched into a very detailed story about how 426 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: they had known Mary Doherty for some time. They knew 427 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: her very well. In fact. The Grays stood there dumbfounded. 428 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: Now they weren't being believed. 429 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 7: And the police begins to think, this is just sour grape. 430 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 7: They've just been vindictive here and they're gonna forget it. 431 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: Anne Gray insisted to the police over and over again 432 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: that there had been a body there when she left. 433 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: The old woman was practically in a drunken stupor when 434 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: the Grays had been kicked out, and now she was dead. 435 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: The police didn't believe her or her husband. 436 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 7: They could have taken that money and just disappeared and 437 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 7: Birkenhey would have gone on forever. But they don't. They 438 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 7: go to the police. So I guess they're almost like 439 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 7: the moral compass in this story. They are doing what 440 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 7: should have been done when they discovered it. 441 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: But Mary Doherty's body was gone, there was no evidence, 442 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: and that was The brilliant thing about Birkenhair's method. Once 443 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: a victim was with doctor Knox, he or she was 444 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: just another corpse on the table of an anatomist. If 445 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: there had been any signs of murder, an intensive dissection 446 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: would have made them impossible to detect afterward. Now it 447 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: was the word of four people against the Grays. Anne 448 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: and James picked up their belongings and left. Birkenhair had 449 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: gotten away with it once again. Oh no, even in 450 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,239 Speaker 1: modern times a case like this still would have been 451 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 1: difficult to prove. But if anyone could have done it, 452 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: it would have been Daniel Westcott and his collection of 453 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: donated cadavers, which lay across twenty six acres in central Texas. 454 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 11: All Right, so these bodies have been had to hear 455 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 11: probably the first ones we're going to come up to 456 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 11: just a little over a year, and so they're almost 457 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 11: all skeletonized at this point. 458 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 4: They're about ready to come. 459 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 5: In and they're under a cage. 460 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 4: These are under a cage. Yeah, so they were protected. 461 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,719 Speaker 11: From vultures and stuff like that. So this is just 462 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 11: a natural kind of without predator decomposition that you would have. 463 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Westcott is a forensic anthropologist. In fact, he's one 464 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: of the best in America. He's the director of the 465 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: Forensic Anthropology Center at Texas State University in San Marcos. 466 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: He runs the world's largest body farm. It's a pretty 467 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: gruesome phrase that's also very very accurate. This is a 468 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: human decomposition research laboratory. Donors gift doctor Westcott and his 469 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: team their bodies so forensic science students can study how 470 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: they decompose. 471 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 11: This one actually kind of looks it's like a coffin, 472 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 11: so it's just a box with the body in there, 473 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 11: and what they're actually looking at is movement of the 474 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 11: body and then how the joints disarticulate. 475 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 9: Okay, and this is actually for an archaeological thing, so 476 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 9: you think about it. If you dig up an archaeological 477 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 9: site you're looking at, you know sometimes one hundreds or 478 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 9: thousands of years of processes that go on. So the 479 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 9: question is is how did they actually get to those 480 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 9: exact processes. 481 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: Doctor Westcott receives as many as seventy body donations a year. 482 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: Some are covered by metal cages so scavenger animals like 483 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: coyotes and vultures can't reach them. Others are buried to 484 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: measure how they degrade under the ground. This is some 485 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: of the best research on forensics in the world. These 486 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: kidavers are used to solve crimes, educate law enforcement through workshops, 487 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: and save lives. 488 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 5: But this isn't the easiest location. 489 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 11: For me, So now we'll start getting in it somewhere 490 00:28:58,440 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 11: there's more soft tissue left. 491 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 5: This was a pretty strong smell. I guess you get 492 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 5: used to it. 493 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 4: You get used to it like anything else. 494 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: Doctor Westcott teaches the country's top forensic science students through 495 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: hands on experience. Around thirty graduate students monitor the site daily, 496 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: taking measurements like body temperature and levels of decomposition. They 497 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: scan through footage from the various wildlife cameras Westcott has 498 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: set up. It's a unique learning experience for students who 499 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: might end up working for the federal government or a 500 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: local law enforcement agency. One body is used for decades 501 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: in many different ways, including murder investigations. 502 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 4: We also do cold case work for the police. So 503 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 4: if we have badly decomposed or skeletonized remains, the police 504 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 4: will call us. We will go out and help with 505 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 4: the recovery. Well, we'll do the analysis will help facilitate 506 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 4: the identification of the individual all the way through. So 507 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 4: it may be that, for example, I estimates the time 508 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 4: since death and it may actually exonerate somebody. 509 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: So one body donation can really affect so many people 510 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: in education and in solving cases. 511 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 5: I mean, it's valuable. This is a valuable thing. 512 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, for us, especially the way that we utilize 513 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 4: the bodies. Like I said, everybody that's donated to us 514 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 4: gets put into research project. 515 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: Doctor Robert Knox seemed to be at a crossroads in 516 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: October of eighteen twenty eight. The tension within his team 517 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: was undeniable, and the acrimony and jealousy amongst colleagues was 518 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: only becoming worse, and he was widening his research interests 519 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: and not in a positive direction. Knox was pondering writing 520 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: a book on his theory of human history, something that 521 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: he believed would change the world. It would be based 522 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: on his observations of black people while he was stationed 523 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: with the British military in South Africa in the mid 524 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. The dominant view was that race determined people's culture, behavior, 525 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: and even their character. Researchers in Europe and North America 526 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: pointed to those factors to support slavery. 527 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 5: And anti semitism. 528 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: But as usual, Knox was conflicted and complicated. He was 529 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: anti Semitic, but he also railed against slavery. Knox believed 530 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: that races were distinct species with specific aptitudes. Some were 531 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: born to lead, others were not. Regardless of his political 532 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: and cultural views, Knox was becoming increasingly arrogant. He isolated 533 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: himself from other anatomists in the city, but that wasn't 534 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: a concern because his classes were filled to capacity, his 535 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: family was well cared for, and his body suppliers were reliable. 536 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: After all, he was using the cadavers for the good 537 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: of society, to train surgeons and to save lives. And 538 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: that's what unanimous today argue those who buy corpses legally, 539 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 1: But what about those who break the rules? Anthony Horne, 540 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: with a Catholic Church, is concerned about those people. The 541 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: story of Birkenhair isn't entertaining to him at all. It's 542 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: a history lesson one that illustrated how a lack of 543 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: respect for human remains can do so much damage. 544 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 12: We appreciate that that bodies are used for research purposes, 545 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 12: and that's I suppose for humanity that can be a 546 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 12: good thing. But in terms of retrieving bodies or ask, 547 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 12: you know, getting people's permission to do that once they 548 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 12: have died, hounding families or not appropriate and should not 549 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 12: be encouraged. 550 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 5: That might sound ridiculous today. Does that still happen? Yes, 551 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 5: it does. 552 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: There's quite a lot of controversy over modern day organ thieves, 553 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: private agencies that buy bodies and organs from bereaved families. 554 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: These bodybrokers promise relatives that the cadavers will be used 555 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: for medical research to help save lives or make new discoveries. 556 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: The families believe that they're making an altruistic, selfless decision. 557 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: They're usually promised a free cremation after the organs or 558 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: bodies are no longer needed, But the truth is once 559 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: the contract assigned, the bodies can be used for a 560 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: myriad of things regardless of the family's request, and there 561 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: are few regulations in America. 562 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 5: To stop them. 563 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, Reuters published an excellent investigative series called 564 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: The Body Trade. Cashing in on the donated dead, Reporters 565 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: John Schiffman and Reed Levinson created an incredible seven parts 566 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: series that is fascinating and horrifying. They discovered that these 567 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: non transplant tissue banks are selling parts overseas, different organs 568 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: to different countries, so there's no hope of receiving ashes, 569 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: or at least the family member's ashes. Shiftman and Levinson 570 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: wrote they are distinct from the organ and tissue transplant industry, 571 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: which the US government closely regulates. Selling hearts, kidneys, and 572 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: tendons for transplant is illegal, but no federal law governs 573 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: the sale of cadavers or body parts for use in 574 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: research or education, So how do you know if your 575 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: body is going to be used the way you intended. 576 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: Chiffman found that the most reliable places to donate are 577 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: universities or in America, state agencies avoid body brokers. At 578 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: the University of Edinburgh, Ian Campbell says that they make 579 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: sure that students understand just how crucial it is to 580 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 1: respect the bodies they're working with. 581 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 6: The students all have to sign a code of conduct. 582 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 6: It's not a case they're texting mes, oh, guess what 583 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 6: I've done today. They respect the body. A way of 584 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 6: doing that is within memorial service. All the first years attend, 585 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 6: and I think it reconnects them with the idea of 586 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 6: what the material they using to land from is actually 587 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 6: connected in real life to the people we see before them, 588 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 6: the mothers, daughters, cousins, brothers, sisters of the people who 589 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 6: have generously donated their body. 590 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: And there are other issues like a black market for 591 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: body parts to be sold by their living owners. William 592 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: Winslad is a psychotherapist and a professor of philosophy of 593 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: Medicine at the University of Texas. He says that selling 594 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: your body parts is actually pretty easy. 595 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 8: There's a whole underground of people that will sell parts 596 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 8: of their body. There's a website. You can go to 597 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 8: it and you can find people that are willing to 598 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 8: sell a kidney, even though it's illegal to do so. 599 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: Winsley says, it's not just illegal, it's dangerous. But much 600 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,720 Speaker 1: like in Birkenhar's time, there's still a supply and demand problem. 601 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 8: Yeah, they're selling selling bones. Surgeons need to practice, they 602 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 8: need to have tissue and bones to learn, and that 603 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 8: there isn't probably enough donated stuff. So there are people 604 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 8: that are under the table. 605 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,919 Speaker 1: If we dismiss the ethical issues for a moment, there's 606 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: still the idea that once you're dead, your usefulness might 607 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: not need to end. Janet Philips says, there is an 608 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: argument for not wasting bodies valuable material if they can 609 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: be used for the greater good. 610 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 7: That they would have just got into a grave and 611 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 7: rotted away because they were taken to Knox. They trained 612 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 7: thousands of surgeons on them, and you've got to equate 613 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 7: that is, that is a better use of that body 614 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 7: than just putting it in the ground. 615 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: But of course the rebuttal is also really convincing. 616 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 7: Yes, you're training all these doctors, but if that person 617 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 7: is of the belief that they need their body to 618 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 7: behold to get up to heaven and their wishes should 619 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 7: be observed. 620 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: And that's at the crux of this story. Respect, the 621 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: lack of respect for human remains, for the people they 622 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: once were, and the callousness of science in some cases. 623 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: But for Burke and Hare, their contribution to medicine, such 624 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,439 Speaker 1: as it was, would end in October of eighteen twenty eight, 625 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: and one of them would himself end up on an 626 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: unanimous's table, but which one. On All Saints Day, the 627 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: two police officers lingered an evening candle light near the 628 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: doorway of William Burke's little flat. The investigators were still 629 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: wondering about that woman. The Grays were talking about Mary Doherty, 630 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: Where exactly did she go? William Burke and Nellie MacDougall 631 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: repeated their story. She had stayed with them for just 632 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: a bit for the celebrations, and yes, she had a 633 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: bit too much whiskey. 634 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 7: They speak to the Burkes about the Mary Campbell and 635 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 7: they admit that they knew her. They say that she 636 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 7: was at that party, but that she left at seven. 637 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: One officer stepped away with Burke determined to ask more 638 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: questions without Nelly around. Burke looked at his wife as 639 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: she talked with a different officer about the details like 640 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: what time exactly Mary Doherty left their house. Berkenelly both 641 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: confirmed that she left at seven, but there was a problem. 642 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 7: It's only when they talked to Berkeley's wife separately they 643 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 7: discovered that one of them is talking about seven in 644 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,919 Speaker 7: the morning and one of them is talking about seven 645 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 7: at night. 646 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: On the final episode of this season of tenfold more wicked. 647 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 5: What is he saying? 648 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: What were the highlights of this you know document that 649 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:37,760 Speaker 1: was printed? 650 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 7: What he was mainly saying is that Knox knew all 651 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 7: about it. There's only one particular person who says that 652 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 7: who has a vendetta against Knocks At that point, I have. 653 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 13: The dubious honor of having responsibility in ownership of a 654 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 13: mass murderers skeleton, and part of me thinks, what, Craig, 655 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 13: You know, I don't like that, but the way that 656 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 13: his legacy can be turned to be positive is really heartwarming. 657 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, be sure to order 658 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: my book American Sherlock. It's about a real life Sherlock 659 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: Holmes who solved some of the most gruesome murders in. 660 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 5: The nineteen twenties. 661 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right and tenfold more media 662 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 1: production producers Jason Whaling and Laura Sobole, sound designer Eric Friend, 663 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: composer Curtis Heath, artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hardstark, 664 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff, and Danielle Kramer. Clips at the beginning of 665 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: the episode are from the movie Peter Cushing, The Fiendish Ghouls, 666 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: and the radio show Crime Classics from the episode titled 667 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 1: if a Body Need a Body, just called Burke and Hare. 668 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 669 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold More. If you're an advertiser 670 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: Interested in advertising on our show, go to midroll dot 671 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: com ads and if you know of a historical crime 672 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: that could use some attention, email us at info at 673 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: tenfoldmore wicked dot com. So please listen, subscribe, leave us 674 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts, Ditcher, or wherever you get 675 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: your podcasts.