1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, today, you are in for 2 00:00:24,676 --> 00:00:26,956 Speaker 1: a treat, because by the end of this episode, my 3 00:00:27,036 --> 00:00:28,756 Speaker 1: guest and I will have shared how you can do 4 00:00:28,836 --> 00:00:33,076 Speaker 1: something totally awesome, totally life saving, and something totally happiness 5 00:00:33,076 --> 00:00:36,436 Speaker 1: inducing with almost zero effort. And spoiler, it's going to 6 00:00:36,476 --> 00:00:40,796 Speaker 1: involve the website GiveDirectly dot org slash TV. That's GiveDirectly 7 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:44,236 Speaker 1: dot org slash TB. One of my favorite parts of 8 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:46,356 Speaker 1: being hosted The Happiness Lab is that I get to 9 00:00:46,396 --> 00:00:48,836 Speaker 1: share stuff that I love with you, Like the time 10 00:00:48,876 --> 00:00:51,876 Speaker 1: I interviewed my eighties heart Throb rob Low about nostalgia. 11 00:00:52,196 --> 00:00:54,196 Speaker 1: Just talking with you on the zoom call and I'm 12 00:00:54,236 --> 00:00:56,876 Speaker 1: taking back to you know, movies I watched in grade 13 00:00:56,876 --> 00:00:59,636 Speaker 1: school and fun times in college and that is amazing. 14 00:00:59,716 --> 00:01:01,276 Speaker 2: It makes me feel so good. 15 00:01:01,716 --> 00:01:03,756 Speaker 1: Or when I geeked out about Star Trek with Lieutenant 16 00:01:03,796 --> 00:01:05,676 Speaker 1: Wesley Crusher himself, will we eaten? 17 00:01:05,956 --> 00:01:09,396 Speaker 2: Star Trek looks through the screen and it says there 18 00:01:09,476 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 2: is a place specifically for you in the future, Like you, Laurie, 19 00:01:13,036 --> 00:01:14,956 Speaker 2: there is a space for you in the future. 20 00:01:15,396 --> 00:01:18,196 Speaker 1: I loved that. But today I not only get to 21 00:01:18,276 --> 00:01:20,316 Speaker 1: chat with someone who I have nerded out about for 22 00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:22,876 Speaker 1: a very very long time. But I also have the 23 00:01:22,956 --> 00:01:25,676 Speaker 1: chance to invite you to help that guest do something 24 00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:27,996 Speaker 1: to make the world a better place. If you happen 25 00:01:28,036 --> 00:01:30,196 Speaker 1: to be a nerd fighter like me, then get ready, 26 00:01:30,436 --> 00:01:33,676 Speaker 1: because today I'll be chatting with the amazing John Green. 27 00:01:35,076 --> 00:01:37,116 Speaker 2: Hold on, I don't even let my headphones in. This 28 00:01:37,196 --> 00:01:39,516 Speaker 2: is a catastrophe of the scale of which nobody's ever 29 00:01:39,516 --> 00:01:40,116 Speaker 2: seen before. 30 00:01:40,476 --> 00:01:42,236 Speaker 1: No, You're good, good, You're going to make. 31 00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:45,636 Speaker 2: Sure I'm on the right fancy Mike, I am okay, great. 32 00:01:45,956 --> 00:01:48,196 Speaker 1: I'm guessing a lot of my Happiness Lab listeners know 33 00:01:48,236 --> 00:01:51,156 Speaker 1: who John Green is. John is first and foremost a 34 00:01:51,196 --> 00:01:54,636 Speaker 1: best selling author, both of beloved fictional books like Turtles 35 00:01:54,636 --> 00:01:56,556 Speaker 1: All the Way Down and The Fault in Our Stars, 36 00:01:56,796 --> 00:02:00,796 Speaker 1: but also nonfiction greades like The Anthroposcene Reviewed, a book 37 00:02:00,876 --> 00:02:03,996 Speaker 1: in which he expertly reviews everything from diet Doctor Pepper 38 00:02:04,116 --> 00:02:07,676 Speaker 1: to the smallpox vaccine. But John is also an educator who, 39 00:02:07,716 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: with his brother Hank, created the all inspiring vlog Brothers 40 00:02:10,676 --> 00:02:14,236 Speaker 1: and Crash Course YouTube channels. John has been a hero 41 00:02:14,316 --> 00:02:16,556 Speaker 1: of mine for a while because I see a lot 42 00:02:16,556 --> 00:02:19,436 Speaker 1: of happiness science in his work. Did you ever think 43 00:02:19,476 --> 00:02:21,876 Speaker 1: that you would be an expert on a happiness podcast. 44 00:02:22,276 --> 00:02:24,916 Speaker 2: No, I don't give off the vibes of somebody who's 45 00:02:24,956 --> 00:02:26,876 Speaker 2: an expert in happiness, to be honest with you, Doc, 46 00:02:27,276 --> 00:02:27,636 Speaker 2: but you. 47 00:02:27,716 --> 00:02:30,516 Speaker 1: So are, dude. I mean, you're so focused on things 48 00:02:30,636 --> 00:02:33,796 Speaker 1: like awe and understanding that negative emotions are the things 49 00:02:33,796 --> 00:02:36,716 Speaker 1: that you want to stick around with, Like you kind 50 00:02:36,716 --> 00:02:37,556 Speaker 1: of follow all the science. 51 00:02:37,676 --> 00:02:39,396 Speaker 2: I mean when I listened to the podcast, I often 52 00:02:39,436 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 2: think like, oh, I'm closer than I thought I was, 53 00:02:41,756 --> 00:02:43,636 Speaker 2: because I'm pretty far away from this sort of like 54 00:02:43,676 --> 00:02:46,196 Speaker 2: wellness industry version of happiness. But I'm pretty close to 55 00:02:46,236 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 2: the doctor Lori Santos version of happiness, which makes you really, 56 00:02:49,356 --> 00:02:50,916 Speaker 2: for lack of a better term, happy. 57 00:02:51,316 --> 00:02:53,876 Speaker 1: John's work embodies so many of the lessons that I've 58 00:02:53,956 --> 00:02:57,276 Speaker 1: learned studying the science of happiness. That meaning comes not 59 00:02:57,316 --> 00:03:00,596 Speaker 1: from avoiding suffering but embracing it. That there's wonder to 60 00:03:00,636 --> 00:03:03,116 Speaker 1: be found in the mundane, and that even in the 61 00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:05,956 Speaker 1: face of a lot of terrible, sucky stuff, we can 62 00:03:06,076 --> 00:03:09,516 Speaker 1: choose to band together to actually fix things. And that's 63 00:03:09,556 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 1: the goal of this episode. John's latest book deals with 64 00:03:12,316 --> 00:03:14,156 Speaker 1: a problem facing people around the world. 65 00:03:14,396 --> 00:03:16,676 Speaker 2: The new book is called everything is tuberculosis. It's a 66 00:03:16,756 --> 00:03:19,436 Speaker 2: history of tuberculosis told through the perspective of both a 67 00:03:19,476 --> 00:03:22,676 Speaker 2: long term historical lens, but also the life of one 68 00:03:22,796 --> 00:03:25,596 Speaker 2: kid living with tuberculosis and sire leone. 69 00:03:25,876 --> 00:03:28,476 Speaker 1: And so just for listeners, you might not be as familiar. 70 00:03:28,516 --> 00:03:29,876 Speaker 1: What is tuberculosis? 71 00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:33,916 Speaker 2: So tuberculosis is an airborne disease. It usually affects the lungs, 72 00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:36,556 Speaker 2: but it can infect any part of the body really 73 00:03:37,196 --> 00:03:39,356 Speaker 2: and it makes people really sick. But it tends to 74 00:03:39,356 --> 00:03:43,316 Speaker 2: make them sick quite slowly because the bacteria divides very slowly, 75 00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:45,556 Speaker 2: and so you can be sick for months or years. 76 00:03:45,596 --> 00:03:50,276 Speaker 2: But if left untreated, tuberculosis usually does result in death. Fortunately, 77 00:03:50,316 --> 00:03:52,996 Speaker 2: since the nineteen fifties, we've had a cure for tuberculosis. 78 00:03:52,996 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 2: It's a bacterial infection, so the curious antibiotics given every 79 00:03:56,756 --> 00:03:58,116 Speaker 2: day over four to six months. 80 00:03:58,276 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 1: So why write a book about tuberculosis, now, why tell 81 00:04:00,996 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 1: this particular story at this time? 82 00:04:02,876 --> 00:04:07,116 Speaker 2: Well, because tuberculosis is still the world's deadliest infectious disease astonishingly, 83 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:10,356 Speaker 2: I mean I say astonishingly because it's incurable for so long. 84 00:04:10,516 --> 00:04:13,076 Speaker 2: Like since the disease became curable, we've allowed over one 85 00:04:13,156 --> 00:04:15,156 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty million people to die of it, which 86 00:04:15,196 --> 00:04:16,876 Speaker 2: is just a figure that's hard for me to get 87 00:04:16,876 --> 00:04:21,316 Speaker 2: my head around, but it just speaks to how, you know, 88 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:24,716 Speaker 2: disease is a biomedical phenomenon, but it's also a social one, 89 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:28,836 Speaker 2: and how we imagine disease, how we allocate resources around 90 00:04:28,876 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 2: disease that shapes not just like how people live and 91 00:04:32,116 --> 00:04:35,116 Speaker 2: die of diseases like tuberculosis, but also who lives and 92 00:04:35,156 --> 00:04:36,876 Speaker 2: dies of diseases like tb DO. 93 00:04:36,996 --> 00:04:39,156 Speaker 1: I seems like part of your TV journey was trying 94 00:04:39,156 --> 00:04:41,116 Speaker 1: to fix the problem, But part of the TV journey, 95 00:04:41,116 --> 00:04:43,476 Speaker 1: at least in the book, seemed like in some ways, 96 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:45,396 Speaker 1: TV was sort of like cool. I don't know if 97 00:04:45,396 --> 00:04:47,196 Speaker 1: you can use the word cool for some disease that 98 00:04:47,276 --> 00:04:49,516 Speaker 1: kills lots of people, But it's kind of a fascinating 99 00:04:49,556 --> 00:04:50,756 Speaker 1: cultural journey. Yeah. 100 00:04:50,796 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 2: I mean one of the fascinating parts of that cultural 101 00:04:52,956 --> 00:04:55,276 Speaker 2: journey is that for a while it was considered cool, 102 00:04:55,516 --> 00:04:58,516 Speaker 2: Like Victor Hugo's friends would joke with him that he 103 00:04:58,516 --> 00:05:00,996 Speaker 2: could be a great novelist if only he contracted consumption, 104 00:05:01,156 --> 00:05:04,436 Speaker 2: because it was so widely believed that consumption made you 105 00:05:04,476 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 2: a great artist and also made you really beautiful. This 106 00:05:07,076 --> 00:05:09,556 Speaker 2: was part of the romanticization of the disease eighteenth and 107 00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:14,836 Speaker 2: nineteenth centuries. But really, tuberculosis is everywhere in History's I 108 00:05:14,996 --> 00:05:16,996 Speaker 2: argue in the book that it was an ancillary cause 109 00:05:17,036 --> 00:05:18,836 Speaker 2: of World War One. It was the cause of the 110 00:05:18,876 --> 00:05:21,356 Speaker 2: cowboy hat. It's the reason New Mexico is a state. 111 00:05:21,516 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 2: The strangeness of tuberculosis is that because it was such 112 00:05:24,556 --> 00:05:27,476 Speaker 2: a powerful and important part of our culture. I mean, 113 00:05:27,516 --> 00:05:29,356 Speaker 2: this was a disease that killed one out of every 114 00:05:29,396 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 2: seven people, that it inevitably also became a disease that 115 00:05:33,996 --> 00:05:36,476 Speaker 2: had a huge impact on our culture in our history. 116 00:05:36,516 --> 00:05:38,356 Speaker 1: Wait, TV is the reason we have the cowboy hat. 117 00:05:38,396 --> 00:05:40,436 Speaker 2: That doesn't make any sense, and yet it makes total 118 00:05:40,476 --> 00:05:42,916 Speaker 2: sense because there was a hat maker in New Jersey 119 00:05:43,476 --> 00:05:47,716 Speaker 2: named John B. Stetson who got tuberculosis and was told 120 00:05:47,716 --> 00:05:50,036 Speaker 2: that his only chance as survival was to go west. 121 00:05:50,156 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 2: This was a very common belief at the time. You 122 00:05:52,476 --> 00:05:54,996 Speaker 2: move west and then you recover your health in the 123 00:05:55,156 --> 00:05:58,516 Speaker 2: sweet clean air. And John B. Stetson made it out 124 00:05:58,516 --> 00:06:01,156 Speaker 2: to Saint Joseph, Missouri, and while he was there he 125 00:06:01,236 --> 00:06:03,876 Speaker 2: recovered from tuberculosis. About twenty five percent of people for 126 00:06:03,956 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 2: reasons we still don't understand, we'll recover without treatment. And 127 00:06:07,196 --> 00:06:09,836 Speaker 2: John B. Stetson was in that lucky few, and as 128 00:06:09,836 --> 00:06:12,276 Speaker 2: he recovered, he noticed that the hats in the American 129 00:06:12,316 --> 00:06:14,876 Speaker 2: West were not very good because there were like coonskin 130 00:06:14,996 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 2: caps that were literally bug infested. There were like straw 131 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:20,716 Speaker 2: hats that folks from New Mexico and Mexico had brought up, 132 00:06:20,716 --> 00:06:22,876 Speaker 2: but like they didn't work particularly well in Saint Joe's 133 00:06:22,956 --> 00:06:27,676 Speaker 2: rainy environment. And so he invented the Stetson hat. And 134 00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:30,836 Speaker 2: so yes, there would be no cowboy hat without tuberculosis. 135 00:06:31,196 --> 00:06:33,956 Speaker 1: And so your own introduction to TV, as I understand 136 00:06:34,036 --> 00:06:37,116 Speaker 1: it started when you met somebody incredible, somebody who reminded 137 00:06:37,196 --> 00:06:38,916 Speaker 1: you of your own son. Tell me about Henry. 138 00:06:39,116 --> 00:06:41,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Henry shares a name with my son, who 139 00:06:41,916 --> 00:06:44,156 Speaker 2: is also named Henry. And when I first met Henry 140 00:06:44,316 --> 00:06:47,396 Speaker 2: Rider in Sierra Leone in twenty nineteen, I thought he 141 00:06:47,436 --> 00:06:48,916 Speaker 2: was about the same age as my son. I thought 142 00:06:48,916 --> 00:06:51,716 Speaker 2: he was about nine years old, and he just walked 143 00:06:51,716 --> 00:06:53,676 Speaker 2: me all around the hospital, and you're right, he's just 144 00:06:53,716 --> 00:06:55,636 Speaker 2: somebody who's incredible. He was kind of the mayor of 145 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:58,236 Speaker 2: that place. Everywhere he went, people were shaking his hand, 146 00:06:58,316 --> 00:07:01,116 Speaker 2: rubbing his head, and he took me to the lab. 147 00:07:01,156 --> 00:07:03,676 Speaker 2: He took me to the wards where the patients were living, 148 00:07:03,916 --> 00:07:07,676 Speaker 2: and he eventually took me back to the doctors who 149 00:07:07,876 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 2: were meeting to discuss cases they were concerned about or whatever, 150 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:13,956 Speaker 2: and they sort of lovingly and laughingly shoot Henry away. 151 00:07:14,436 --> 00:07:15,876 Speaker 2: And then I said, whose kid is that? Is that 152 00:07:15,916 --> 00:07:18,276 Speaker 2: one of your kids? And they said, no, he's a patient, 153 00:07:18,316 --> 00:07:20,036 Speaker 2: and he's in fact one of the patients that we're 154 00:07:20,036 --> 00:07:22,476 Speaker 2: consulting about because we're very concerned about him. And it 155 00:07:22,516 --> 00:07:25,236 Speaker 2: turned out that Henry wasn't nine like I imagined him. He 156 00:07:25,276 --> 00:07:28,676 Speaker 2: was seventeen. He'd just been so emaciated, first by malnutrition 157 00:07:28,836 --> 00:07:31,116 Speaker 2: and then by the disease that he looked much younger. 158 00:07:31,516 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 2: And it was really in following Henry's story and getting 159 00:07:34,676 --> 00:07:37,556 Speaker 2: to know Henry that I ended up writing the book. 160 00:07:37,796 --> 00:07:40,156 Speaker 1: So something that I was shocked by in your book 161 00:07:40,156 --> 00:07:41,836 Speaker 1: and kind of embarrassed when I was reading it, is 162 00:07:41,836 --> 00:07:43,676 Speaker 1: that I sort of assumed that TV was like this 163 00:07:43,756 --> 00:07:47,076 Speaker 1: disease of the past, like some like old Victorian problem 164 00:07:47,196 --> 00:07:48,876 Speaker 1: that you know, you look into old pictures and stuff 165 00:07:48,916 --> 00:07:51,396 Speaker 1: like that totally give me a sense of why we 166 00:07:51,476 --> 00:07:53,636 Speaker 1: don't realize the scope of TV today and what the 167 00:07:53,676 --> 00:07:54,756 Speaker 1: actual scope is today. 168 00:07:54,836 --> 00:07:56,396 Speaker 2: I think one of the reasons we don't realize the 169 00:07:56,396 --> 00:07:59,196 Speaker 2: scope is that it tends to be a problem in 170 00:07:59,276 --> 00:08:02,676 Speaker 2: places where people are least likely to have access to megaphones, 171 00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:04,676 Speaker 2: you know, least likely to be able to make their 172 00:08:04,756 --> 00:08:07,836 Speaker 2: voices heard. But the scope of the problem is really 173 00:08:07,876 --> 00:08:11,276 Speaker 2: really significant. About ten million people get sick with tuberculosis 174 00:08:11,356 --> 00:08:13,956 Speaker 2: every year, and about one point twenty five million die, 175 00:08:14,476 --> 00:08:17,716 Speaker 2: and unfortunately that number is likely to go up in 176 00:08:17,756 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 2: the next few years. 177 00:08:18,636 --> 00:08:21,196 Speaker 1: This seems really crazy, right, that the disease is still 178 00:08:21,236 --> 00:08:24,276 Speaker 1: around even though we have good treatments for it. Yeah, 179 00:08:24,396 --> 00:08:26,276 Speaker 1: why aren't we fixing this? Like this seems like a 180 00:08:26,276 --> 00:08:29,076 Speaker 1: problem that medically we've sorted out the hard part, Right, 181 00:08:29,076 --> 00:08:31,996 Speaker 1: we have antibiotics that can fix this, Like, why are 182 00:08:31,996 --> 00:08:33,036 Speaker 1: people still dying from this? 183 00:08:33,356 --> 00:08:35,956 Speaker 2: Well? TV isn't an easy disease to cure by any 184 00:08:35,956 --> 00:08:38,396 Speaker 2: stretch of the imagination. But you know, my brother had 185 00:08:38,396 --> 00:08:40,436 Speaker 2: cancer a couple of years ago, and that also wasn't 186 00:08:40,476 --> 00:08:42,436 Speaker 2: an easy disease to cure. It costs about one hundred 187 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:45,436 Speaker 2: and fifty times more to cure my brother's cancer than 188 00:08:45,436 --> 00:08:48,236 Speaker 2: it costs to cure Henry's tuberculosis, and yet nobody at 189 00:08:48,236 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 2: any time said, I'm not sure that it makes sense 190 00:08:50,436 --> 00:08:52,476 Speaker 2: to treat you. It might be better to focus more 191 00:08:52,516 --> 00:08:55,516 Speaker 2: on prevention. No, it's true that in a narrow sense, 192 00:08:55,556 --> 00:08:57,916 Speaker 2: it's a better investment to focus on the prevention of 193 00:08:57,956 --> 00:09:00,436 Speaker 2: cancer than it is to focus on treating cancer. But 194 00:09:00,476 --> 00:09:02,516 Speaker 2: of course that's a ludicrous thing to say. We would 195 00:09:02,596 --> 00:09:05,196 Speaker 2: never say that to someone living with cancer. And yet 196 00:09:05,236 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 2: Henry heard that all the time. He heard that there 197 00:09:07,596 --> 00:09:10,396 Speaker 2: just aren't resources out there to offer you the kind 198 00:09:10,396 --> 00:09:12,676 Speaker 2: of personalized, taylored care that you would need in order 199 00:09:12,716 --> 00:09:15,676 Speaker 2: to survive. And as a result, he was really, really 200 00:09:15,756 --> 00:09:17,836 Speaker 2: sick for a really long time. I mean, Henry was 201 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 2: essentially on his deathbed when finally, thanks to an extraordinary doctor, 202 00:09:22,516 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 2: doctor jerom To Farah, and the Sierra Leonian Ministry of 203 00:09:25,436 --> 00:09:28,036 Speaker 2: Health and the nonprofit organization Partners in Health, they all 204 00:09:28,116 --> 00:09:30,916 Speaker 2: kind of came together and decided that this kid was 205 00:09:30,956 --> 00:09:33,516 Speaker 2: worthy of that kind of treatment. And even though, as 206 00:09:33,516 --> 00:09:36,236 Speaker 2: doctor Jeroum told me, I know, it's just one kid, 207 00:09:36,276 --> 00:09:37,836 Speaker 2: but what if he can be the first of many? 208 00:09:38,196 --> 00:09:40,556 Speaker 2: And he has been the first of many Blessedly, so 209 00:09:40,636 --> 00:09:42,636 Speaker 2: many more people are receiving the kind of treatment that 210 00:09:42,716 --> 00:09:45,996 Speaker 2: Henry finally was able to receive, and that's why he's 211 00:09:46,036 --> 00:09:46,756 Speaker 2: here with us today. 212 00:09:46,876 --> 00:09:48,436 Speaker 1: But it seems like what you're saying is that TV 213 00:09:48,636 --> 00:09:51,356 Speaker 1: isn't just like a medical problem, it's really like a 214 00:09:51,396 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 1: social justice problem. It's really sort of a disease of poverty. 215 00:09:54,556 --> 00:09:55,996 Speaker 1: Is that kind of what you found writing the book? 216 00:09:56,036 --> 00:09:59,996 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it is a social justice problem. Tuberculosis follows the 217 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:02,796 Speaker 2: paths of injustice that we blaze for it, and that's 218 00:10:02,836 --> 00:10:06,236 Speaker 2: been the case for decades now. Anybody can get TV. 219 00:10:06,316 --> 00:10:08,956 Speaker 2: It's an airborne disease, but you're vastly more likely to 220 00:10:08,956 --> 00:10:11,116 Speaker 2: be come sick and die if you're malnourished, if you 221 00:10:11,156 --> 00:10:14,156 Speaker 2: have other health problems like an HIV infection or diabetes, 222 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:17,636 Speaker 2: and so it's a disease of injustice in every way. 223 00:10:17,716 --> 00:10:19,716 Speaker 2: And the reason I wrote this book is because for me, 224 00:10:19,796 --> 00:10:22,596 Speaker 2: it's the exemplary disease of injustice. It's certainly not the 225 00:10:22,636 --> 00:10:25,796 Speaker 2: only one, but it is a disease that is a 226 00:10:25,796 --> 00:10:28,196 Speaker 2: social phenomenon as much as a biomedical one. 227 00:10:28,236 --> 00:10:30,036 Speaker 1: It also seems to be one that we kind of 228 00:10:30,076 --> 00:10:32,516 Speaker 1: ignore for the same reason we ignore poverty, right, Like 229 00:10:32,516 --> 00:10:34,876 Speaker 1: we like to think we have control over the disease. 230 00:10:34,996 --> 00:10:37,316 Speaker 1: We like to think that, you know, we earned our status. 231 00:10:37,316 --> 00:10:39,036 Speaker 1: If we happen to kind of be privileged enough not 232 00:10:39,076 --> 00:10:40,716 Speaker 1: to be in a place where this disease is wiping 233 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:42,836 Speaker 1: people out. It seems to also be kind of a 234 00:10:42,836 --> 00:10:43,916 Speaker 1: problem of human nature. 235 00:10:44,156 --> 00:10:46,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that's a great observation. 236 00:10:46,836 --> 00:10:51,636 Speaker 2: We are uncomfortable with dealing with randomness and injustice in 237 00:10:51,716 --> 00:10:56,356 Speaker 2: our social orders, because of course we are. It discomforts 238 00:10:56,396 --> 00:10:59,276 Speaker 2: those of us who are extremely privileged. It also discomforts 239 00:10:59,276 --> 00:11:01,836 Speaker 2: other people because we don't really want to live in 240 00:11:01,876 --> 00:11:04,676 Speaker 2: a world where like the most powerful emperor of all time, 241 00:11:04,716 --> 00:11:07,396 Speaker 2: Alexander the Great, can die from just like typhoid or 242 00:11:07,436 --> 00:11:10,836 Speaker 2: malaria or whatever, which is why for centuries we've had 243 00:11:10,916 --> 00:11:13,116 Speaker 2: rumors that he died of poisoning, because that would be 244 00:11:13,156 --> 00:11:15,596 Speaker 2: a much more human centric thing to have happen, a 245 00:11:15,676 --> 00:11:18,876 Speaker 2: much more agency based thing to have happened. The places 246 00:11:18,876 --> 00:11:21,276 Speaker 2: where we where we don't have agency, or where our 247 00:11:21,316 --> 00:11:24,956 Speaker 2: agency is very confusing, like it is with tuberculosis, are 248 00:11:25,476 --> 00:11:27,996 Speaker 2: uncomfortable for us, I think, because we don't want to 249 00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:30,916 Speaker 2: reckon with not just the randomness in the social order, 250 00:11:30,956 --> 00:11:33,516 Speaker 2: but also the injustice that's built into the social order. 251 00:11:33,636 --> 00:11:35,436 Speaker 1: I mean, especially when it comes to life and death. 252 00:11:35,516 --> 00:11:37,716 Speaker 1: Like if you're someone like Henry and you're literally hearing 253 00:11:37,876 --> 00:11:40,356 Speaker 1: you know your life is not worth saving because it's 254 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:43,276 Speaker 1: too expensive given where you live. I mean, that's just incredible. 255 00:11:43,876 --> 00:11:47,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it really is horrifying, and yet people 256 00:11:47,156 --> 00:11:49,676 Speaker 2: are told that every day, and not just people with TB, 257 00:11:49,876 --> 00:11:52,916 Speaker 2: but also people living with other other diseases. You know, 258 00:11:52,996 --> 00:11:54,876 Speaker 2: when my brother got cancer, one of the first things 259 00:11:54,876 --> 00:11:56,516 Speaker 2: he said to me was this as a ninety three 260 00:11:56,516 --> 00:11:59,196 Speaker 2: percent curate in the United States and a twenty to 261 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:01,796 Speaker 2: seventy percent curate in poor countries. And the reason we 262 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 2: don't know whether it's twenty percent or seventy percent is 263 00:12:04,036 --> 00:12:05,916 Speaker 2: because we don't even do a good job of counting. 264 00:12:06,236 --> 00:12:09,756 Speaker 1: Man, And you just said something that was even carrier, right, 265 00:12:09,796 --> 00:12:12,796 Speaker 1: You said that you know, TV is really bad now 266 00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:15,596 Speaker 1: and it's likely going to get worse. Yeah, And that's 267 00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:17,156 Speaker 1: in part because you know, you and I are having 268 00:12:17,156 --> 00:12:20,396 Speaker 1: this conversation at a strange time when things are getting worse. 269 00:12:20,436 --> 00:12:22,916 Speaker 1: Why are things getting worse? And what's happened recently to 270 00:12:22,996 --> 00:12:23,516 Speaker 1: change things? 271 00:12:23,796 --> 00:12:26,876 Speaker 2: So we've had dramatic cuts, mostly from the US government 272 00:12:26,916 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 2: but also from other governments to tuberculosis response. The United 273 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 2: States has long been the most generous funder of tuberculosis response, 274 00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:38,156 Speaker 2: and unfortunately we've walked that back in a very sudden, 275 00:12:38,236 --> 00:12:41,156 Speaker 2: chaotic way, which has resulted in hundreds of thousands of 276 00:12:41,156 --> 00:12:44,116 Speaker 2: people seeing their treatment interrupted mid course. Like I said earlier, 277 00:12:44,116 --> 00:12:46,276 Speaker 2: it takes between four and six months of treatment to 278 00:12:46,316 --> 00:12:49,236 Speaker 2: be cured. If that gets interrupted in the middle, even 279 00:12:49,236 --> 00:12:52,756 Speaker 2: if your treatment gets restarted, you're very likely to develop 280 00:12:52,796 --> 00:12:56,436 Speaker 2: drug resistant tuberculosis, which is a much much more serious thing. 281 00:12:56,476 --> 00:13:00,076 Speaker 2: That's what Henry was living with. And we know that 282 00:13:00,156 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 2: most of those people will die. Unfortunately, and just as catastrophically, 283 00:13:04,756 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 2: many of those people will circulate drug resistant tuberculosis in 284 00:13:08,676 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 2: their own communities. We've already seen the rates of tuberculosis 285 00:13:11,916 --> 00:13:15,036 Speaker 2: death go up. I think twelve thousand people excess quote 286 00:13:15,116 --> 00:13:18,596 Speaker 2: unquote excess deaths have happened in the last three months. 287 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:21,116 Speaker 2: But it'll go up much more dramatically as time goes on. 288 00:13:21,236 --> 00:13:23,156 Speaker 2: Because tuberculosis is a slow killer. 289 00:13:23,396 --> 00:13:26,836 Speaker 1: I mean, this is like a like slow burning moral emergency. 290 00:13:26,876 --> 00:13:28,756 Speaker 1: This isn't just like, oh, some made gut cut in 291 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:30,796 Speaker 1: this country that I don't care about so much, Like 292 00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:33,876 Speaker 1: this is like really tragic and utterly preventable. 293 00:13:34,156 --> 00:13:38,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, utterly preventable. And also, I mean frankly scary, 294 00:13:38,556 --> 00:13:43,036 Speaker 2: because the more complicated drug resistant tuberculosis you have circulating 295 00:13:43,076 --> 00:13:46,596 Speaker 2: in communities, the more likely it is that we'll see 296 00:13:46,716 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 2: more cases of TB that we simply don't have any 297 00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:51,996 Speaker 2: tools to treat. I mean, I try not to be 298 00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:55,836 Speaker 2: a person who engages in hyperbole when it comes to 299 00:13:55,876 --> 00:13:58,036 Speaker 2: global health, and I think it's important to understand that 300 00:13:58,076 --> 00:14:00,996 Speaker 2: the main reason we need to respond to this tragedy 301 00:14:01,076 --> 00:14:04,276 Speaker 2: is because it's affecting millions of human beings. But there 302 00:14:04,316 --> 00:14:06,556 Speaker 2: is another reason to respond to this tragedy, which is 303 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:08,756 Speaker 2: that if we aren't careful, it will affect billions of 304 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:09,476 Speaker 2: human beings. 305 00:14:09,636 --> 00:14:12,276 Speaker 1: And so this salt is pretty sucky. 306 00:14:12,796 --> 00:14:14,596 Speaker 2: But one of the reasons, Yeah, Ury, can you see 307 00:14:14,596 --> 00:14:17,556 Speaker 2: why maybe I'm not an expert in happiness. I mean, 308 00:14:17,596 --> 00:14:19,476 Speaker 2: are the people listening to this like, oh, this guy's 309 00:14:19,476 --> 00:14:20,556 Speaker 2: got happiness cracked? 310 00:14:21,036 --> 00:14:24,116 Speaker 1: They're like, I'm on the wrong podcast. What has happened? 311 00:14:24,716 --> 00:14:26,636 Speaker 1: But this is the reason I love you and your 312 00:14:26,676 --> 00:14:28,356 Speaker 1: work John so much, is that in the face of 313 00:14:28,396 --> 00:14:31,156 Speaker 1: sucky stuff, you have us do something right, which is 314 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:33,956 Speaker 1: that you have us find hope and find agency. And 315 00:14:34,036 --> 00:14:36,116 Speaker 1: so when we get back from the break, we're going 316 00:14:36,156 --> 00:14:37,956 Speaker 1: to talk about what we can do to fix this 317 00:14:38,036 --> 00:14:40,916 Speaker 1: totally fixable problem of beating TV around the world. And 318 00:14:40,996 --> 00:14:43,236 Speaker 1: we're going to see that the act of taking action 319 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:44,676 Speaker 1: to fix it is going to come with a bunch 320 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:47,516 Speaker 1: of happiness benefits that we might not even expect. Happiness 321 00:14:47,556 --> 00:14:49,116 Speaker 1: lab with John Green, We'll be right back. 322 00:14:49,316 --> 00:14:51,276 Speaker 2: You crush that, man, I mean, that's such a pro 323 00:14:51,476 --> 00:14:53,796 Speaker 2: like I take like eight takes on my breaks. 324 00:15:06,516 --> 00:15:10,316 Speaker 1: One of my favorite John Green quotes, which might be apocryphal, 325 00:15:10,476 --> 00:15:13,756 Speaker 1: you can tell me, is allegedly the following The most 326 00:15:13,756 --> 00:15:15,516 Speaker 1: punk rock thing to do in the world right now 327 00:15:15,556 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 1: is to embrace the current problems with earnestness and optimism. 328 00:15:18,956 --> 00:15:19,676 Speaker 2: I did say that. 329 00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:22,596 Speaker 1: You did say that, Okay, it's cool, Like it's punk 330 00:15:22,676 --> 00:15:24,836 Speaker 1: rock to like look in the face of something really sucky, 331 00:15:24,916 --> 00:15:27,676 Speaker 1: especially something as bad as global health problems in TV, 332 00:15:27,796 --> 00:15:30,996 Speaker 1: and say we can fix this. And so, what's the 333 00:15:31,036 --> 00:15:33,116 Speaker 1: best way that folks who are listening to this right 334 00:15:33,156 --> 00:15:36,596 Speaker 1: now can fix the problem of TV with earnestness and optimism. 335 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:38,796 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a bunch of ways we can respond. 336 00:15:38,836 --> 00:15:41,196 Speaker 2: I mean, just our attention matters, Like we are much 337 00:15:41,196 --> 00:15:43,196 Speaker 2: more likely to solve the problems we pay attention to, 338 00:15:43,796 --> 00:15:45,956 Speaker 2: And when we think about our attention, we need to 339 00:15:45,956 --> 00:15:49,636 Speaker 2: be thinking about it as a resource that's incredibly valuable, right, 340 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:51,996 Speaker 2: Like all these social media companies know the value of 341 00:15:51,996 --> 00:15:55,396 Speaker 2: our attention and we need to understand it too. But 342 00:15:55,756 --> 00:15:58,636 Speaker 2: I also think that there are functional things that we 343 00:15:58,676 --> 00:16:02,436 Speaker 2: can do. We can give to organizations that are making 344 00:16:02,476 --> 00:16:04,196 Speaker 2: a difference, And there are a lot of ways to 345 00:16:04,236 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 2: make a difference with TV. So obviously there's organizations that 346 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:10,116 Speaker 2: are fighting TV itself, like Partners and Health. There's also 347 00:16:10,236 --> 00:16:13,716 Speaker 2: organizations that are fighting malnutrition and poverty overall, which we 348 00:16:13,756 --> 00:16:15,836 Speaker 2: know is a good way to fight tuberculosis. We know 349 00:16:15,916 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 2: from the history of the United States and the United 350 00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:20,236 Speaker 2: Kingdom that when poverty goes down and when food and 351 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:23,076 Speaker 2: security goes down, tuberculosis rates also go down. 352 00:16:23,116 --> 00:16:25,676 Speaker 1: And that means that the cure for tuberculosis isn't in 353 00:16:25,756 --> 00:16:27,716 Speaker 1: some lab somewhere that you know, and I don't have 354 00:16:27,756 --> 00:16:30,676 Speaker 1: to like learn about how to create new antibiotic cures. 355 00:16:30,996 --> 00:16:33,036 Speaker 1: The cure is actually in our wallets and maybe like 356 00:16:33,116 --> 00:16:35,276 Speaker 1: even small change that we have in our wallets. 357 00:16:35,396 --> 00:16:38,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is incredible the extent to which tuberculosis is 358 00:16:38,276 --> 00:16:40,676 Speaker 2: a resource problem. Now, we do need better tools. We 359 00:16:40,996 --> 00:16:43,796 Speaker 2: have great researchers, they need to be better supported so 360 00:16:43,836 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 2: that we have better vaccines for TV. I mean, the 361 00:16:45,876 --> 00:16:47,836 Speaker 2: only vaccine we have is one hundred and five years old. 362 00:16:47,836 --> 00:16:51,756 Speaker 2: It's not very effective. We need better, shorter treatment regimens, 363 00:16:51,756 --> 00:16:54,036 Speaker 2: we need better diagnostics, we need all of that stuff. 364 00:16:54,236 --> 00:16:57,596 Speaker 2: But we have the tools to cure tuberculosis today. We 365 00:16:57,716 --> 00:17:01,116 Speaker 2: have the tools to offer people, you know, ninety three 366 00:17:01,156 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 2: percent cure rates today, and we just need to be 367 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:07,316 Speaker 2: using those tools. It's the rare problem that actually is 368 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:10,196 Speaker 2: mostly a resource problem. 369 00:17:09,596 --> 00:17:12,396 Speaker 1: And so today Happiness Lablinsters are going to get a 370 00:17:12,476 --> 00:17:15,316 Speaker 1: chance to help fix that resource problem. If you're a 371 00:17:15,316 --> 00:17:16,996 Speaker 1: fan of the Happiness Lab, you know we've worked with 372 00:17:17,076 --> 00:17:20,676 Speaker 1: give Directly before. Give directly is one of the most effective, 373 00:17:20,756 --> 00:17:23,396 Speaker 1: cost effective ways to reduce poverty because they just give 374 00:17:23,436 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 1: people money directly. And one of the cool things is 375 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:29,916 Speaker 1: this is actually studies on like giving people cash directly 376 00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:32,676 Speaker 1: and the effect it can have specifically on TV. John, 377 00:17:32,676 --> 00:17:33,956 Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this study is one 378 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:35,116 Speaker 1: that was done in in Brazil. 379 00:17:35,196 --> 00:17:36,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Oh it's incredible. 380 00:17:36,316 --> 00:17:37,116 Speaker 1: Do you want to explain? 381 00:17:37,236 --> 00:17:39,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, they found Yeah, I mean you'll I'll probably misquoted 382 00:17:39,956 --> 00:17:41,836 Speaker 2: and then you can fix you can fix everything I said. 383 00:17:41,956 --> 00:17:45,356 Speaker 2: But that's the nature of the amateur speaking and then 384 00:17:45,396 --> 00:17:48,276 Speaker 2: the professor speaking right Like, that's like, that's the student 385 00:17:48,316 --> 00:17:51,636 Speaker 2: teacher relationship at its core. So my understanding is that 386 00:17:52,316 --> 00:17:58,556 Speaker 2: there was unconditional cash payment transfers to fight poverty in 387 00:17:58,596 --> 00:18:02,676 Speaker 2: an impoverished community in Brazil, and an unexpected side effect 388 00:18:02,676 --> 00:18:05,476 Speaker 2: of this was that rates of tuberculosis went down by 389 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 2: I believe fifty percent, like went down really fifty percent. 390 00:18:11,036 --> 00:18:14,796 Speaker 1: I mean fifty percent is like bonkers, because like you'd 391 00:18:14,796 --> 00:18:16,716 Speaker 1: think that you need to come in and like vaccinate 392 00:18:16,756 --> 00:18:20,476 Speaker 1: everybody or like had hospitals. Just giving people some money 393 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:23,276 Speaker 1: actually reduce the rates of TV deaths by fifty percent. 394 00:18:23,476 --> 00:18:25,916 Speaker 2: And this is a reminder that like people know how 395 00:18:25,956 --> 00:18:29,636 Speaker 2: to spend money, like people, people are much better judges 396 00:18:29,676 --> 00:18:31,996 Speaker 2: people living their lives are much better judges of how 397 00:18:32,036 --> 00:18:34,796 Speaker 2: to spend their money than I ever could be. And 398 00:18:34,876 --> 00:18:36,596 Speaker 2: so this is why I'm such a big fan of 399 00:18:36,636 --> 00:18:40,996 Speaker 2: gift directly is because they empower people to make financial 400 00:18:41,036 --> 00:18:44,036 Speaker 2: decisions that work for them, and as a result, we 401 00:18:44,076 --> 00:18:47,196 Speaker 2: see less food and security, we see more kids going 402 00:18:47,196 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 2: to school, we see safer housing, and all of that 403 00:18:50,316 --> 00:18:53,956 Speaker 2: contributes to lower rates of tuberculosis, among many other benefits. 404 00:18:54,156 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: So just talk about why, Like, if you're in a 405 00:18:56,276 --> 00:18:59,516 Speaker 1: community that's facing tuberculosis, this more money might help, right, 406 00:18:59,516 --> 00:19:01,636 Speaker 1: I think in terms of like prevention and then like 407 00:19:01,876 --> 00:19:04,076 Speaker 1: finding out and treating the disease once you have it. 408 00:19:04,316 --> 00:19:06,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's one obvious way, right, is that you're 409 00:19:06,236 --> 00:19:08,356 Speaker 2: more likely to be able to use the healthcare system 410 00:19:08,356 --> 00:19:11,556 Speaker 2: and benefit from the healthcare system. But there are less 411 00:19:11,556 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 2: obvious ways too, Like you're more likely to have safe 412 00:19:14,716 --> 00:19:18,156 Speaker 2: housing with where maybe you aren't living cheek by jow 413 00:19:18,236 --> 00:19:20,556 Speaker 2: with lots of other people, where maybe you have a 414 00:19:20,556 --> 00:19:23,116 Speaker 2: little bit better ventilation in your home, which we know 415 00:19:23,276 --> 00:19:27,436 Speaker 2: reduces the risk of transmitting TV. You might be able 416 00:19:27,476 --> 00:19:31,596 Speaker 2: to afford better public transportation, so you're on public transport 417 00:19:31,636 --> 00:19:33,996 Speaker 2: that isn't quite as crowded. There's a lot of different 418 00:19:33,996 --> 00:19:36,796 Speaker 2: ways in which this could prevent TV infection, but it 419 00:19:36,836 --> 00:19:39,556 Speaker 2: can also prevent TV death by allowing people to access 420 00:19:39,596 --> 00:19:40,836 Speaker 2: the healthcare system. 421 00:19:40,556 --> 00:19:41,676 Speaker 1: I mean that was one of the things that was 422 00:19:41,676 --> 00:19:44,236 Speaker 1: striking in your book, where you just talk about the 423 00:19:44,276 --> 00:19:47,156 Speaker 1: reality of this disease in Sierra Leone. You talk about 424 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 1: how people might even have access to treatments, maybe the 425 00:19:49,916 --> 00:19:52,636 Speaker 1: money for treatments, but treatment's super far away, and so 426 00:19:52,676 --> 00:19:54,796 Speaker 1: they don't have the money for public transportation or they 427 00:19:54,796 --> 00:19:57,036 Speaker 1: can't miss work, and then they wind up not getting 428 00:19:57,076 --> 00:19:59,996 Speaker 1: treated and the disease gets worse. Yeah, and maybe it 429 00:19:59,996 --> 00:20:02,596 Speaker 1: turns into drug resistant disease, which is even worse. I mean, 430 00:20:02,636 --> 00:20:04,996 Speaker 1: it's just incredible how much resources can help here. 431 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:08,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, resources can really help. And then you know, we 432 00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:11,076 Speaker 2: often those of us who live in countries with relatively 433 00:20:11,076 --> 00:20:14,076 Speaker 2: strong systems, and maybe I shouldn't be including myself in 434 00:20:14,116 --> 00:20:16,316 Speaker 2: that category, but I think I think I still can't 435 00:20:16,556 --> 00:20:19,956 Speaker 2: those of us who live in countries with relatively strong 436 00:20:19,996 --> 00:20:23,116 Speaker 2: systems forget sometimes how many systems have to work together 437 00:20:23,196 --> 00:20:25,916 Speaker 2: for this stuff to happen, right, Like, you need functioning 438 00:20:25,916 --> 00:20:28,836 Speaker 2: transportation systems, you need electricity so that there can be 439 00:20:28,916 --> 00:20:31,556 Speaker 2: cold chain, and you need trucks that have cold chain, 440 00:20:31,676 --> 00:20:34,276 Speaker 2: and like, in order to keep a vaccine cold is 441 00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,836 Speaker 2: a tremendous amount of work, and so all of this 442 00:20:36,876 --> 00:20:39,876 Speaker 2: stuff has to work together for us to fight diseases 443 00:20:39,876 --> 00:20:42,916 Speaker 2: of injustice. And yet there is also the truth that 444 00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:45,756 Speaker 2: like systems get stronger when people are less poor. We 445 00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:47,636 Speaker 2: know this, We know this from history, We know it 446 00:20:47,676 --> 00:20:50,796 Speaker 2: from our history. And so that's why I'm a big 447 00:20:50,796 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 2: fan of an organization like Gift Directly that you know, 448 00:20:53,836 --> 00:20:59,116 Speaker 2: fights poverty in the most radical and yet stunningly obvious 449 00:20:59,116 --> 00:20:59,796 Speaker 2: way possible. 450 00:20:59,956 --> 00:21:03,276 Speaker 1: Obviously, it is funny how we like try to complicate 451 00:21:03,556 --> 00:21:05,916 Speaker 1: you know, charity. Yeah, just like we're going to have 452 00:21:06,156 --> 00:21:09,076 Speaker 1: middlemen and all this stuff. Like and if you've heard 453 00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:11,476 Speaker 1: the show before and heard our work would give Directly before, 454 00:21:11,556 --> 00:21:13,716 Speaker 1: you know that. Basically, what Gift Directly does is they 455 00:21:13,716 --> 00:21:17,036 Speaker 1: give these so called unconditional cash transfers to people in poverty. 456 00:21:17,316 --> 00:21:20,476 Speaker 1: Basic that just means no strings attached, no bureaucracy, no middleman, 457 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:23,596 Speaker 1: forest families just get a bunch of cash. And what 458 00:21:23,636 --> 00:21:25,556 Speaker 1: we're going to do with Give Directly now is that 459 00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:29,196 Speaker 1: we're going to actually give these unconditional cash transfers to 460 00:21:29,276 --> 00:21:32,796 Speaker 1: people living in the countries with the highest TB rates. 461 00:21:32,876 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 1: So you's gonna be places like Bangladesh, Kenya, Liberia, Uganda. 462 00:21:37,036 --> 00:21:37,356 Speaker 2: Wow. 463 00:21:37,516 --> 00:21:39,996 Speaker 1: Last time we did this, John, we raised over one 464 00:21:40,076 --> 00:21:42,156 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars per gift directly. 465 00:21:42,356 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 2: Wow. 466 00:21:43,116 --> 00:21:45,836 Speaker 1: I like to think that if you are involved, we're 467 00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 1: going to get more money. But I'm gonna pledge. I 468 00:21:48,716 --> 00:21:50,276 Speaker 1: didn't do this last time, but this time I'm going 469 00:21:50,316 --> 00:21:53,276 Speaker 1: to pledge. I'm going to match the first ten thousand 470 00:21:53,276 --> 00:21:55,756 Speaker 1: dollars of donations that we get from Happiness Lab listeners, 471 00:21:56,356 --> 00:21:58,876 Speaker 1: which automatically puts us up to twenty thousand dollars. If 472 00:21:58,916 --> 00:22:01,396 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab listeners give ten thousand bucks. 473 00:22:01,156 --> 00:22:03,556 Speaker 2: I will I will match the next ten thousand dollars. 474 00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:06,036 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. And if my math is correct and 475 00:22:06,076 --> 00:22:08,316 Speaker 1: we're doing the matching, that means we already get up 476 00:22:08,356 --> 00:22:11,636 Speaker 1: to four eight thousand dollars. You see the professor, the 477 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:14,116 Speaker 1: psych professor, doing math in her head of ten plus 478 00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:14,836 Speaker 1: ten plus ten. 479 00:22:15,836 --> 00:22:19,316 Speaker 2: It's a beautiful thing to watch. I really like your 480 00:22:19,316 --> 00:22:21,396 Speaker 2: eyes rolled back in your head for those of you 481 00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:24,476 Speaker 2: just listening, And it was really it was really a 482 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:27,916 Speaker 2: wonder to see doctor Sanders trying to multiply ten times four. 483 00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:30,876 Speaker 1: But talk about the benefits that we could see if 484 00:22:30,876 --> 00:22:33,596 Speaker 1: we actually are able to raise this much money, especially 485 00:22:33,676 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 1: during this time of so many aid cuts. 486 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:37,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's hard to overstate the difference that 487 00:22:37,876 --> 00:22:39,396 Speaker 2: it makes. I mean, I've seen the difference that it 488 00:22:39,476 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 2: made in my friend Henry's life to go from living 489 00:22:42,196 --> 00:22:47,556 Speaker 2: an absolute poverty to not and you know, everything becomes easier. 490 00:22:47,916 --> 00:22:51,596 Speaker 2: And I'll give you one example. Henry spent two hours 491 00:22:51,636 --> 00:22:54,516 Speaker 2: going to school and two hours going from school every 492 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:56,876 Speaker 2: single day for the first two and a half years 493 00:22:56,916 --> 00:23:00,036 Speaker 2: of his education at the University of Sierra Leone. So 494 00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:02,636 Speaker 2: you can imagine what a burden that is. And it's 495 00:23:02,676 --> 00:23:05,956 Speaker 2: not like you can study on these incredibly crowded transports 496 00:23:05,996 --> 00:23:08,076 Speaker 2: that he would be taking, trucks or buses that he 497 00:23:08,116 --> 00:23:11,236 Speaker 2: would be taking. But then he was able to afford 498 00:23:11,236 --> 00:23:13,316 Speaker 2: a motorbike and as a result, now he can go 499 00:23:13,396 --> 00:23:16,476 Speaker 2: directly to school and come directly home. That's a blessing 500 00:23:16,596 --> 00:23:20,036 Speaker 2: for him in every imaginable way. But I think you know, 501 00:23:20,076 --> 00:23:22,396 Speaker 2: it also comes down to things like safe housing. I mean, 502 00:23:22,436 --> 00:23:26,796 Speaker 2: for years, Henry lived in a home where the roof leaked. 503 00:23:26,836 --> 00:23:29,636 Speaker 2: It was a steel or tin roof and the roof leaked, 504 00:23:29,716 --> 00:23:32,076 Speaker 2: and so he was wet every single night. He would 505 00:23:32,076 --> 00:23:33,676 Speaker 2: tell me that there was no place that he could 506 00:23:33,676 --> 00:23:35,796 Speaker 2: put his bedroll where he wouldn't be wet and where 507 00:23:35,796 --> 00:23:39,156 Speaker 2: his mom wouldn't be wet, and that's miserable. It's also 508 00:23:39,196 --> 00:23:42,076 Speaker 2: bad for your health, and you know, bad for your 509 00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:45,196 Speaker 2: quality of sleep, bad for your mental health. And so 510 00:23:45,716 --> 00:23:50,596 Speaker 2: I just think, like small differences are big, big differences 511 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:51,876 Speaker 2: in impoverished communities. 512 00:23:52,076 --> 00:23:54,796 Speaker 1: And what's really incredible, and you know, the psychology didn't 513 00:23:54,796 --> 00:23:56,796 Speaker 1: need to work this way, but it does, is that 514 00:23:56,836 --> 00:23:58,796 Speaker 1: if you can do something to help somebody in that 515 00:23:58,836 --> 00:24:01,956 Speaker 1: awful situation, even with like five bucks ten bucks, what 516 00:24:01,996 --> 00:24:04,636 Speaker 1: the research really shows is that you'll be boosting your 517 00:24:04,676 --> 00:24:07,156 Speaker 1: own happiness too. Turns out we get more of a 518 00:24:07,196 --> 00:24:09,276 Speaker 1: happiness kind of bang for our buck by giving five 519 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:11,436 Speaker 1: bucks in a way that will help somebody else than 520 00:24:11,476 --> 00:24:13,716 Speaker 1: we do if we spend in ourselves blow it on 521 00:24:13,756 --> 00:24:17,716 Speaker 1: a latte or something. But some of your work shows 522 00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:20,036 Speaker 1: the second way we get a happiness benefit from this, right, 523 00:24:20,076 --> 00:24:23,476 Speaker 1: which is that when we take action about something that's sucky, 524 00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:26,476 Speaker 1: we wind up feeling like the world is less sucky. 525 00:24:26,596 --> 00:24:29,116 Speaker 1: We wind up doing something to like build our own 526 00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 1: hope up. And I know you've talked about this a lot, 527 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:34,436 Speaker 1: like in the face of just like things being really bad, 528 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:37,676 Speaker 1: Actually trying to fix it can make you a little 529 00:24:37,676 --> 00:24:38,476 Speaker 1: bit more hopeful. 530 00:24:38,676 --> 00:24:40,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's always been hard for me to get out 531 00:24:40,756 --> 00:24:42,316 Speaker 2: of bed in the morning. It is hard for me, 532 00:24:42,396 --> 00:24:44,076 Speaker 2: not just to stare at the ceiling. It is hard 533 00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 2: for me not just to scroll on my phone and doom, 534 00:24:46,156 --> 00:24:50,036 Speaker 2: scroll until it's bedtime again. Like that's just that's just 535 00:24:50,116 --> 00:24:52,916 Speaker 2: who I have always been. It's always been hard for me, 536 00:24:53,556 --> 00:24:56,876 Speaker 2: and I have found, I have found that absolutely that 537 00:24:56,956 --> 00:25:00,436 Speaker 2: the more that I give of my resources, of my time, 538 00:25:00,636 --> 00:25:03,796 Speaker 2: of my attention to problems of the world, instead of 539 00:25:03,796 --> 00:25:06,356 Speaker 2: feeling worse, I feel better, especially if I don't just 540 00:25:06,476 --> 00:25:09,036 Speaker 2: let myself get overwhelmed by the fire hose of problem. 541 00:25:09,316 --> 00:25:11,476 Speaker 2: Right Like I do not labor under the delusion that 542 00:25:11,516 --> 00:25:14,676 Speaker 2: tuberculosis is the only problem that we're facing in the 543 00:25:14,796 --> 00:25:18,156 Speaker 2: United States right now, by any stretch of the imagination, right, 544 00:25:18,236 --> 00:25:20,396 Speaker 2: But it is the place where I feel like I 545 00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:23,396 Speaker 2: have chosen to try to make a difference, And in 546 00:25:23,436 --> 00:25:25,956 Speaker 2: some ways that makes it easier to live with the 547 00:25:25,956 --> 00:25:28,396 Speaker 2: rest of the fire hose, because I can say, like, well, 548 00:25:29,036 --> 00:25:31,276 Speaker 2: I hope other people and I believe other people are 549 00:25:31,316 --> 00:25:34,836 Speaker 2: making the choice to respond to climate change, or other 550 00:25:34,836 --> 00:25:37,396 Speaker 2: people are making the choice to respond to this injustice 551 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:39,876 Speaker 2: or that injustice, because I'm making the choice to respond 552 00:25:40,196 --> 00:25:43,596 Speaker 2: to tuberculosis, which you know, I feel like I'm uniquely 553 00:25:43,636 --> 00:25:47,516 Speaker 2: able to respond too well. And I do find I 554 00:25:47,556 --> 00:25:49,436 Speaker 2: do find that that boosts my happiness. I mean, I 555 00:25:49,476 --> 00:25:52,396 Speaker 2: just got off this grueling three week long book tour, 556 00:25:53,356 --> 00:25:55,876 Speaker 2: and going into the book tour, I told my wife 557 00:25:55,916 --> 00:25:57,356 Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to come home a shell 558 00:25:57,396 --> 00:25:59,316 Speaker 2: of a person. I'm going to come home destroyed and 559 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:01,916 Speaker 2: devastated and like it's going to take me months to recover. 560 00:26:02,356 --> 00:26:03,996 Speaker 2: And what actually happened is I got home and I 561 00:26:04,036 --> 00:26:05,916 Speaker 2: was really happy to see my family and really happy 562 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:07,756 Speaker 2: to see my dog. But like I didn't feel that 563 00:26:07,796 --> 00:26:10,156 Speaker 2: way at all. I felt incurg because I'd been on 564 00:26:10,196 --> 00:26:12,396 Speaker 2: the road meeting people who are also fighting to make 565 00:26:12,436 --> 00:26:14,796 Speaker 2: the world better and that's just an encouraging thing to 566 00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 2: be around. 567 00:26:15,316 --> 00:26:17,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, And also what the researchers is like, it doesn't 568 00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:19,316 Speaker 1: actually matter how much you do. I mean, you went 569 00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:21,116 Speaker 1: on a grueling book tour and wrote a whole book 570 00:26:21,156 --> 00:26:23,556 Speaker 1: about this, But like, if somebody is listening and all 571 00:26:23,556 --> 00:26:26,796 Speaker 1: you can give is three bucks, five bucks, just do that. 572 00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:29,716 Speaker 1: You know, our last give directly. Campaigns were more more 573 00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:33,036 Speaker 1: made up of people giving incredibly small amounts of money, 574 00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 1: amounts of money that they thought were small. But it 575 00:26:35,276 --> 00:26:36,916 Speaker 1: turns out when we all do it together, we can 576 00:26:36,956 --> 00:26:37,916 Speaker 1: have this huge impact. 577 00:26:37,996 --> 00:26:40,116 Speaker 2: And that's true not just for money, right, like, that's 578 00:26:40,116 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 2: also true for advocacy, for activism. You know, thousands of 579 00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:47,116 Speaker 2: people came together to ask Johnson and Johnson, for instance, 580 00:26:47,156 --> 00:26:51,116 Speaker 2: to abandon their patents on bdacaul in, their secondary patent 581 00:26:51,116 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 2: attempts on baedaculan. 582 00:26:52,316 --> 00:26:54,356 Speaker 1: And maybe just say what baedaculan is, just so. 583 00:26:55,156 --> 00:26:57,316 Speaker 2: I just assumed that the world knows what pedacculan is. 584 00:26:58,116 --> 00:27:00,756 Speaker 2: Bdacculin is a really important drug for treating multi drug 585 00:27:00,756 --> 00:27:04,556 Speaker 2: resistant tuberculosis and one of the drugs that Henry really 586 00:27:04,596 --> 00:27:07,916 Speaker 2: needed and was told that he couldn't afford. And so 587 00:27:08,396 --> 00:27:11,516 Speaker 2: thousands of people coming together to make that accomplish something 588 00:27:11,556 --> 00:27:14,676 Speaker 2: that no one could have accomplished in isolation. And I 589 00:27:14,716 --> 00:27:18,396 Speaker 2: think that's very much and very often the case is 590 00:27:18,436 --> 00:27:20,716 Speaker 2: that we feel powerless. But one of the reasons we 591 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:23,156 Speaker 2: feel powerless is because we feel like we're alone and 592 00:27:23,236 --> 00:27:26,236 Speaker 2: our three dollars or our email to our congress person 593 00:27:26,276 --> 00:27:29,116 Speaker 2: doesn't matter. Much. But when you're part of a huge community, 594 00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:31,916 Speaker 2: and you are part of a huge community, if you're 595 00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:34,436 Speaker 2: part of the Happiness Lab community, then your three dollars 596 00:27:34,436 --> 00:27:37,636 Speaker 2: matters more because it's not three dollars, it's three dollars 597 00:27:37,716 --> 00:27:40,196 Speaker 2: in partnership with thousands of other people's three dollars. 598 00:27:40,756 --> 00:27:43,156 Speaker 1: And so end us off on what makes you hopeful 599 00:27:43,156 --> 00:27:46,316 Speaker 1: about fighting TV and fighting other secky stuff when you 600 00:27:46,356 --> 00:27:47,956 Speaker 1: can do that in the context of a community. 601 00:27:47,996 --> 00:27:49,916 Speaker 2: Well, I think you know. I've one of the things 602 00:27:49,916 --> 00:27:52,356 Speaker 2: I've learned from you and from my therapist is that 603 00:27:53,556 --> 00:27:56,316 Speaker 2: pushing negative emotions to the side, or ignoring them or 604 00:27:56,356 --> 00:27:59,516 Speaker 2: trying to deny them is not the right way. It's 605 00:27:59,556 --> 00:28:02,196 Speaker 2: the maybe the easy way, and the way that sort 606 00:28:02,236 --> 00:28:04,236 Speaker 2: of makes a kind of common sense, but it just 607 00:28:04,276 --> 00:28:09,196 Speaker 2: doesn't work very well. And so I'm engaging with a 608 00:28:08,956 --> 00:28:12,716 Speaker 2: lot of negative emotions right now, but I'm using them 609 00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:15,796 Speaker 2: to fuel fuel hope instead of using them to fuel despair. 610 00:28:15,876 --> 00:28:18,356 Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to do anyway, to fuel hope 611 00:28:18,356 --> 00:28:21,116 Speaker 2: that better diagnostics are coming for TB, that maybe a 612 00:28:21,116 --> 00:28:24,196 Speaker 2: better vaccine is coming, and to fuel hope that yes, 613 00:28:24,676 --> 00:28:28,356 Speaker 2: we have fallen down the staircase of human health in 614 00:28:28,396 --> 00:28:31,356 Speaker 2: the last few months. But that's not permanent. This isn't 615 00:28:31,356 --> 00:28:33,236 Speaker 2: the end of the story. This is the middle of 616 00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:35,996 Speaker 2: the story, and it really falls to us to write 617 00:28:35,996 --> 00:28:36,676 Speaker 2: a better ending. 618 00:28:36,956 --> 00:28:39,636 Speaker 1: Can part of that ending be you saying to my listeners, 619 00:28:39,676 --> 00:28:41,996 Speaker 1: don't forget to be awesome, because that would be really cool. 620 00:28:45,476 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 2: Yes, they say in my hometown, friends, don't forget to 621 00:28:49,196 --> 00:28:49,756 Speaker 2: be awesome. 622 00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:53,916 Speaker 1: So tuberculous is terrible disease, but only a disease of poverty. 623 00:28:53,956 --> 00:28:55,836 Speaker 1: We can fix it. And if we want to treat 624 00:28:55,956 --> 00:28:58,116 Speaker 1: poverty like the emergency it is, and TV like the 625 00:28:58,116 --> 00:29:01,436 Speaker 1: emergency it is, we can help by giving to give directly. 626 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:05,756 Speaker 1: So Happiness Lab listeners go visit GiveDirectly dot org, slash TV. 627 00:29:06,516 --> 00:29:09,836 Speaker 1: Make me and John apparently pony up our ten thousand 628 00:29:09,916 --> 00:29:13,076 Speaker 1: bucks to fix something that is totally fixable with our 629 00:29:13,116 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 1: collective effort. John, thank you so much for coming on 630 00:29:15,796 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lave. You totally are a happiness expert. I 631 00:29:17,876 --> 00:29:18,756 Speaker 1: know you don't think that, but. 632 00:29:18,836 --> 00:29:20,676 Speaker 2: I really I love that. I'm going to tell my 633 00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:23,276 Speaker 2: therapist that this week I'm going to say, did you know, Joellen, 634 00:29:23,356 --> 00:29:25,556 Speaker 2: I am according to a happiness expert. A bit of 635 00:29:25,596 --> 00:29:27,476 Speaker 2: a happiness expert myself. 636 00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 1: I'm going to see the eyes rolling And thanks so 637 00:29:33,876 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 1: much to John Green for taking the time to chat 638 00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:38,276 Speaker 1: with me. And I'm just thrilled that he's also going 639 00:29:38,316 --> 00:29:41,076 Speaker 1: to be matching up to ten thousand dollars in donations 640 00:29:41,116 --> 00:29:43,236 Speaker 1: from all of you. I had no idea he'd be 641 00:29:43,276 --> 00:29:45,796 Speaker 1: willing to do that. So if hearing about this totally 642 00:29:45,836 --> 00:29:48,556 Speaker 1: fixable problem of TB has made you excited to help 643 00:29:48,636 --> 00:29:52,156 Speaker 1: decrease world suck and make yourself feel awesome, please consider 644 00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:55,716 Speaker 1: giving whatever you're comfortable sharing to give directly dot org 645 00:29:55,756 --> 00:30:00,876 Speaker 1: slash TB. That's give directly dot org slash TB. Seriously, 646 00:30:01,076 --> 00:30:04,556 Speaker 1: anything is helpful. Even tossing five bucks towards this important 647 00:30:04,596 --> 00:30:07,036 Speaker 1: cause can help us all come together as a community 648 00:30:07,156 --> 00:30:10,916 Speaker 1: to fix something important. These times feel very tough and 649 00:30:11,076 --> 00:30:13,996 Speaker 1: very uncertain, but research shows that you'll likely feel a 650 00:30:14,036 --> 00:30:16,356 Speaker 1: lot better about this big mess if you take some 651 00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:18,836 Speaker 1: positive action, and you can do that with just a 652 00:30:18,916 --> 00:30:23,556 Speaker 1: dollar donated at GiveDirectly dot org slash TB. That's GiveDirectly 653 00:30:23,716 --> 00:30:27,516 Speaker 1: dot org slash TB. John and I also recently recorded 654 00:30:27,556 --> 00:30:29,676 Speaker 1: a live event to celebrate the release of his new 655 00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:32,876 Speaker 1: book everything is tuberculosis. We had a lot of fun 656 00:30:33,076 --> 00:30:35,916 Speaker 1: despite the subject matter, and even ended the evening with 657 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:39,156 Speaker 1: my favorite thing ever, a sing along We're. 658 00:30:38,996 --> 00:30:46,716 Speaker 3: Here because we're here, Because we're here, because we're here, 659 00:30:47,676 --> 00:30:56,756 Speaker 3: We're here, because we're here, because we're here, because we're here. 660 00:30:58,596 --> 00:31:01,036 Speaker 1: I'm going to drop that show as a special bonus, 661 00:31:01,276 --> 00:31:03,996 Speaker 1: so look out for it coming soon on Happiness Lab 662 00:31:04,156 --> 00:31:10,156 Speaker 1: with Me, Doctor Laurie Santos