Speaker 1: Hey, fam, I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Speaker 1: Red Table Pop podcast all your favorite episodes from the
Speaker 1: Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
Speaker 1: on Apple podcasts. I think she's still angry. I am not.
Speaker 1: I am not angry and ant t exclusive Emmy Award
Speaker 1: winning journalist Jamal Hill. My mother showed me what a
Speaker 1: piece of crack cocaine looked like and her mom in
Speaker 1: their first interview ever. I was mad that I couldn't
Speaker 1: have this normal childhood. How they ended generations of pain.
Speaker 1: When I was about maybe six years old and my
Speaker 1: mother was raped, my mother's brother sexually abused me. Our
Speaker 1: first experimented with herold actually twelve years old. What I realized,
Speaker 1: what I've done in my child It's the only thing
Speaker 1: that could break me. Mom, you've turned the drugs that
Speaker 1: you were young. I just had so much grief just
Speaker 1: about a lost childhood. If I could change anything, I
Speaker 1: would not want to lift this life again. That way,
Speaker 1: sharing our journeys house people understand how to navigate their
Speaker 1: own journeys. Do you know your mother's story? This is
Speaker 1: better than therapy and They called it the Table for
Speaker 1: a reason, So this is gonna be a really great show.
Speaker 1: Our special guest, Emmy winning journalists Jamal Hill says she
Speaker 1: inherited the generational pain of her mother and has spent
Speaker 1: years working to break the traumatic legacy passed on to
Speaker 1: her to forge a new path in the male dominated
Speaker 1: world of sports journalism. Jamal Hill has earned respect for
Speaker 1: her unbothered attitude and fearless opinions. By the way the
Speaker 1: team was bad and given how bad they were and
Speaker 1: how he played, I think that says a lot. She
Speaker 1: made headlines and was bombarded with death threats after she
Speaker 1: called them President Donald Trump a white supremacist. Jamal's childhood
Speaker 1: was filled with harsh realities. Her single mother was sexually
Speaker 1: abused by her uncle, abducted and raped at gunpoint by
Speaker 1: a stranger, and struggled with her addiction to heroin. For
Speaker 1: the first time, Jamal is opening up about her painful
Speaker 1: past that shaped her into the woman she is today.
Speaker 1: Let's welcome the wonderful and beautiful Jamal Hill. Hello, everybody,
Speaker 1: I know I'll take to see you. How is everything? Oh?
Speaker 1: How's everything? Thank you? So? Jamal has written beautiful and
Speaker 1: inspiring memoir called Uphill, which is a great title. So
Speaker 1: I know your mom is gonna be joining us shortly
Speaker 1: for her first interview with you, which is going to
Speaker 1: be really awesome. I want to ask you, when did
Speaker 1: you realize that things were not quite right in your family?
Speaker 1: Because I know for Jada, she knew that young. I
Speaker 1: knew it really young. Well, I would say when, and
Speaker 1: I was about six years old, and that was where
Speaker 1: my mother was raped. The fallout from that just kept happening.
Speaker 1: I just saw my mother falling apart. As a kid,
Speaker 1: you you know something is wrong, but you don't know
Speaker 1: how to put the finger on it. And as um
Speaker 1: she continued to work through what we know now is PTSD,
Speaker 1: all I could see was her slipping away. And what happens,
Speaker 1: as you know, Jada, when you're the child of somebody
Speaker 1: who's in addiction, is that you absorbed so much of
Speaker 1: that you enable you navigate around. And all I could
Speaker 1: do was being mad about the fact that I couldn't
Speaker 1: have this normal childhood and I couldn't really explain to
Speaker 1: people why, and it felt like so much was being taken.
Speaker 1: How did you see your mom slipping away? A lot
Speaker 1: of ways my mother got divorced, we were evicted from
Speaker 1: our home in Detroit. We had to live in a
Speaker 1: very rough neighborhood. I mean so rough. In fact, the
Speaker 1: woman who lived next door to her, she got murdered.
Speaker 1: And so my mother, already suffering from the pts of
Speaker 1: having been raped, sent her into a spiral. And so
Speaker 1: one of the harsher incidents is the night my mother
Speaker 1: showed me what a piece of crack cocaine looked like.
Speaker 1: And she's dealing with trying to understand the pain that
Speaker 1: she is in. But at the same time, mother enough
Speaker 1: to tell me, do not do this ever. I'm suffering
Speaker 1: from something I don't even understand. But I know one thing.
Speaker 1: I don't want you to trade places with me, you know.
Speaker 1: And and so that's when I knew she is not okay.
Speaker 1: And I don't really know what this is, but I
Speaker 1: just don't know how she's going to get out of it,
Speaker 1: how we're going to get out of it. Seeing her
Speaker 1: battle with this addiction and battle with that fear just
Speaker 1: always be present, it was obviously something I was absorbing,
Speaker 1: and so it made me a bit of a porcupine
Speaker 1: in terms of, like I did not want to share anything,
Speaker 1: because I was like, man, this vulnerability stuff is costly.
Speaker 1: Your father wasn't in the house with you. He wasn't
Speaker 1: When my mother met my father, he didn't know he
Speaker 1: had been using heroin on and off. He and my
Speaker 1: mother began to fight on a regular basis, and I
Speaker 1: don't mean just verbally. They sometimes gotten into physical fights,
Speaker 1: and my mother never backed down. If my father hit her,
Speaker 1: my mother hit him right back. The end of their
Speaker 1: relationship came when my mother arrived home from work one
Speaker 1: day to find my father passed out on the toilet.
Speaker 1: He helped me with one arm, and in his other
Speaker 1: arm was a heroin needle. My mother called my grandmother
Speaker 1: and asked her to come get us. That was the
Speaker 1: last time my father, mother, and I lived together under
Speaker 1: one roof. Once me and my mother really started having
Speaker 1: some struggles, just knowing that he was not reliable just
Speaker 1: angered me. And I think even now I struggle with that.
Speaker 1: I love my father, but like I can't say our
Speaker 1: relationship is in the place it needs to be. I
Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of parallel lines between you
Speaker 1: and I and your mother and my mother. So Jamal
Speaker 1: and her mom have never sat down for an interview together.
Speaker 1: We are so honored that they're doing it at the table.
Speaker 1: So Jamaale introduced us to your well, I guess um,
Speaker 1: it feels like a worldwide debut. Everybody can meet my mom, Denise. Welcome, welcome, welcome,
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, thank you for me, thank
Speaker 1: you for the wonderful treatment. I feel like a queen triplets.
Speaker 1: So how are you? This has been uh roller coaster
Speaker 1: train record times and we're talking. So this is good.
Speaker 1: This is real good. So when you say you talking,
Speaker 1: you mean that the the just talking through things, talking talking,
Speaker 1: just talking. We're talking, you're talking to one another. I've
Speaker 1: been telling her, I said, you need to get some help.
Speaker 1: When I got told me so, I said, uh, maybe
Speaker 1: I think you angry, and you have every right to
Speaker 1: be angry. I didn't press her because I wanted to
Speaker 1: give her what my mama never gave me. Gave me.
Speaker 1: My mama never gave me a chance to be angry
Speaker 1: because he was her brother that sexually abused me from
Speaker 1: four to eleven. Jamale describes her grandmother as a highly
Speaker 1: functioning alcoholic. When she drink to the point of passing out,
Speaker 1: her great uncle Edward would often be left in charge
Speaker 1: of Jamal's mother. My mother told my grandmother about the abuse,
Speaker 1: and my grandmother chose not to believe her. When my
Speaker 1: mother was eleven or twelve years old, my grandmother invited
Speaker 1: Edward to come live with him, even though she knew
Speaker 1: what he done. My mother retaliated by running away from home.
Speaker 1: My grandmother couldn't accept that her own brother had sexually
Speaker 1: abused her old. She couldn't face that the reason he
Speaker 1: had access to my mother, the reason his abuse continued
Speaker 1: for years, was because of her. It was a betrayal
Speaker 1: that changed the direction of my mother's life. So then
Speaker 1: I started acting out. That's just how the trauma started.
Speaker 1: So I just ran away and hung out with the
Speaker 1: wrong people. So, Denise, what made you actually turn the drugs.
Speaker 1: I wasn't looking for abus, so to speak. I was
Speaker 1: just looking to get away from myself because I didn't
Speaker 1: know how to deal with me. I was insecure. I
Speaker 1: didn't like the way I looked. I didn't like the
Speaker 1: way I felt because I felt inferior because my family
Speaker 1: they had made me feel this way, you know, with
Speaker 1: my uncle and stuff. Because you know what the family gathers.
Speaker 1: They wouldn't they don't want me. They always made me
Speaker 1: feel like I was a liar. And so I first
Speaker 1: experimented with HEROLD actually twelve years old, and I didn't
Speaker 1: like anything about me. I didn't like my life. I
Speaker 1: thought that I was a failure and I actually shouldn't
Speaker 1: even be on the planet. So so it was your escape. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I didn't even know that story. Like, I didn't
Speaker 1: realize you started experimenting so young, And I was like, what, mom,
Speaker 1: you've turned the drugs that you were young? Yeah, I was.
Speaker 1: But I always felt just totally uncomfortable in my own
Speaker 1: scam me too, So I wanted somebody loved me. So
Speaker 1: I had my daughter. One of my outlets, you know,
Speaker 1: during all this time of tumultuousness, was was writing. I
Speaker 1: kept the journal. I vented in this diary a lot.
Speaker 1: I said some very unflattering things about my mother in it.
Speaker 1: One day I came home from school and to my
Speaker 1: complete horror, my mother was sitting at our dining room
Speaker 1: table reading the pages from my journal. I could see
Speaker 1: the anger in her face, and I knew, based off
Speaker 1: what I had written in that journal, my punishment was
Speaker 1: going to be severe. I was humiliated and mortified. Thinking
Speaker 1: about all the things that were in that journal. I
Speaker 1: called her a horror and a drug addict. I had
Speaker 1: even threatened to beat my mother up the line. I
Speaker 1: wrote that I will never forget the very line that
Speaker 1: triggered her the most. She's lucky she's bigger than me,
Speaker 1: or else I would drum kick her ass. I just
Speaker 1: come home with school one day, and the most frightening
Speaker 1: thing you can ever imagine is your mother with you,
Speaker 1: with your diary, sitting right there, waiting for you to
Speaker 1: answer to what you have done. And so that did
Speaker 1: not go well. Yeah, although they can laugh about it now,
Speaker 1: Jamal writes that what happened that day was anything but funny.
Speaker 1: My mother didn't see those entries as harmless venting. At
Speaker 1: some point during our heated argument, my mother began beating
Speaker 1: my ass. I am not sure where the first blow landed,
Speaker 1: but it felt as if my mother had four sets
Speaker 1: of hands. I tried to cover up my face as
Speaker 1: much as I could. Oh, you think you're gonna disrespect
Speaker 1: me and my house? It didn't take long, but it
Speaker 1: looked like she fit just about everything I owned into
Speaker 1: two trash bags. After that, my mother ordered me to
Speaker 1: get into her car, a Babe Chevette, and tossed the
Speaker 1: garbage bags into the back seat. She called me ungrateful
Speaker 1: as she drove. She also called me a bit. My
Speaker 1: mother pulled up in front of a tall building called
Speaker 1: Harbor Light. It was the rehabilitation center where my biological
Speaker 1: father had undergone treatment for his alcohol and heroin addiction.
Speaker 1: The last thing she said before she hopped out the
Speaker 1: car and went inside was along the lines of, since
Speaker 1: I'm such a bad parent, your daddy can have you now?
Speaker 1: After a couple of anxiety field hours for me, that is,
Speaker 1: my mother picked me up and I remember thinking that
Speaker 1: my mother hated me. I wasn't sorry about what I wrote.
Speaker 1: I needed her to know that her actions were hurting me.
Speaker 1: She wasn't in this alone. I guess that was my
Speaker 1: mother's point too. She was all I had drunk, drug
Speaker 1: or indifferent. Wow, look at you like, yeah, what are you?
Speaker 1: And are you still angry? In the public media, I
Speaker 1: can ask in a safe does I think so? I mean,
Speaker 1: I am not. I am not angry. But it's funny
Speaker 1: because that's the point I start the book, is that
Speaker 1: about how I started going to therapy because my mother
Speaker 1: said I think you're angry and you just don't know
Speaker 1: you're angry, and maybe you need to see somebody. I'm like, literally,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? So I was like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe I shall start seeing somebody just to see if
Speaker 1: this is true. And you know what I found out
Speaker 1: is like that I wasn't angry. You were angry. I'm
Speaker 1: not angry. Sometimes what mother's interpret as anger is just
Speaker 1: pushback or even wanting you to be respectful of certain boundaries.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't necessarily anger at all. Like I told
Speaker 1: you a long time ago, repeatedly, I have forgiven you
Speaker 1: for everything. I understand you so much more now and
Speaker 1: knowing more of your story. I always respected and admire
Speaker 1: you because there are situations and circumstances that you went
Speaker 1: through and overcame that would have literally broken most people.
Speaker 1: And the fact that that didn't happen, and that you're
Speaker 1: here with me right now, there's nothing for me to
Speaker 1: be angry about. Of course, in a minute, I would
Speaker 1: have changed any of the pain that you went through,
Speaker 1: but I would not have changed the journey because we
Speaker 1: wouldn't be sitting here in this way able to deliver
Speaker 1: this story two people like this if not for that,
Speaker 1: and that's why I'm not angry about it. See its
Speaker 1: And it's when you hear this these kinds of details
Speaker 1: about someone else's life, then you understand. You can kind
Speaker 1: of oh, so that's why she's made the choices that
Speaker 1: she did. When you can start to understand someone else's
Speaker 1: trauma and like really see that, you kind of go wow,
Speaker 1: like you put yourself kind of in their shoes. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you know, um our stories aren't unique. Sharing
Speaker 1: our journeys house understand how to navigate their own journeys.
Speaker 1: And I realized in my therapeutic sessions that I was
Speaker 1: sitting on so much grief. Yeah, that anger was the
Speaker 1: safe defense. And I also felt so much that I
Speaker 1: missed so much that I thought I deserved, you know,
Speaker 1: and I just had so much grief just about a
Speaker 1: lost childhood. I think the what you missed really really
Speaker 1: was the nurturing. Yeah, just the nurturing protection and having
Speaker 1: to grow up quick. And I didn't have a lot
Speaker 1: of time to think about it in the mix of it,
Speaker 1: because I was just going I was like, just what
Speaker 1: it is, I'm navigating, I'm just getting through. So by
Speaker 1: the time I had time to sit and be with it.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my goodness, I hadn't even realized
Speaker 1: I had like this, this this wall of ice around myself,
Speaker 1: like over here the porcupine. Yeah, it's like the protection porcupine.
Speaker 1: That's really good. That's perfect. When you said you were
Speaker 1: sitting a lot of grief and regret, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, don't you think that's the
Speaker 1: hardest part in journeys like us. It's when you realize
Speaker 1: what I've done in my child. It's hard to reconcile that.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and twenty two, it's the only thing
Speaker 1: that could break me the worst. You should have been
Speaker 1: value more from me. I'll do more than own it.
Speaker 1: I embrace it because if I don't, it would it
Speaker 1: would it would prove me unworthy of you. I mean,
Speaker 1: what I stole from you can't be replaced. And that's
Speaker 1: the hardest part. Do you I spoke with I felt like,
Speaker 1: you know, hey, that's that's my baby over it, six
Speaker 1: seven years old and her mom's not there and I
Speaker 1: can't get tour man. I totally okay, it's okay. I
Speaker 1: totally understand my feeling. I lived in that guilt for
Speaker 1: a really really long time. Yeah, I needed to express that.
Speaker 1: You said something to Demel and Jada says it all
Speaker 1: the time, going through this journey has made you who
Speaker 1: you are and you would never change anything. I disagree
Speaker 1: with that. I disagree with that because I would not
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know, there's no words. If
Speaker 1: I could change any Stan, I would not want to
Speaker 1: slip this life again that way because she deserves so
Speaker 1: much Any child, any child, deserves so much better, and
Speaker 1: she certainly did. And I understand that what you went
Speaker 1: through made you the person that you are, and I
Speaker 1: get that too, But could we have not gotten there
Speaker 1: a different way? Who knows what you would have been.
Speaker 1: I think that we we say that as our own
Speaker 1: defense because we know that there's nothing we can do
Speaker 1: to change it. Well, so you say that to make
Speaker 1: you okay with the life that you've you've lived. But
Speaker 1: trust me, if we could do it differently, we would
Speaker 1: do it differently. And I understand that mine I could
Speaker 1: totally get it right. And I understand from your perspective
Speaker 1: as mothers, I I agree with you. But what I
Speaker 1: will say for Jamal and I the fact that we
Speaker 1: were lucky to make it out and the fact that
Speaker 1: we were lucky enough to have the level of telligence,
Speaker 1: level of courage, and the level of just no nonsense
Speaker 1: for the environments that we had to go into. God,
Speaker 1: God has a plan, Yeah, because I was gonna say
Speaker 1: it was a lucky plan. Right. We got, we got
Speaker 1: the experiences, I believe, and the mothers that we were
Speaker 1: supposed to have so that we could achieve the things
Speaker 1: that we needed to achieve. I was fully prepared to
Speaker 1: come out to l A at the age of eight
Speaker 1: team by myself. I could navigate through the fake lion,
Speaker 1: tigers and bears out here in the industry because I
Speaker 1: had done with real lions, tigers and bears on the street.
Speaker 1: And I would imagine you correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: The places that Jamal has been and what she's had
Speaker 1: to deal with, she might not have been able to
Speaker 1: do that without the level of adversity that she had
Speaker 1: as a child, right, and the same with me. Now,
Speaker 1: could we have had less trauma, I'll give you that. Okay,
Speaker 1: we could have had less trauma, no doubt about it.
Speaker 1: But we are both grateful for the adversity because there
Speaker 1: is no way she would have been able to survive
Speaker 1: what she has survived the level of attack. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. The reason why she's so gangsters because
Speaker 1: of the adversity situation. Even though I pursued a non
Speaker 1: traditional career, my mother always supported me in it. She
Speaker 1: had all her paperwork, financial aid school picked out. She said, well,
Speaker 1: now my mom gonna have to go top ten. I said, baby,
Speaker 1: and I don't know. I think I had a Ford
Speaker 1: could forty five or something. I said, I don't know
Speaker 1: what you're gonna but whatever you're gonna be, just if
Speaker 1: you even if you're going to be a clown, we
Speaker 1: better find the best clown university for you to go
Speaker 1: to be the best. Added. Yeah, even though my journey
Speaker 1: has not been smoothed, I didn't relive what you went through,
Speaker 1: and I'm grateful for that. As painful as what you
Speaker 1: have gone through, this is where the trauma and our
Speaker 1: family was broken. I don't want you to ever think
Speaker 1: it was in vain because it wasn't beautiful. It wasn't that.
Speaker 1: It's like things are coming for a circle. I'm understanding
Speaker 1: what I did. This is better than therapy. They call
Speaker 1: it the table for a RESI Denise, do you feel
Speaker 1: like you have forgiven yourself sometimes, you know, sometime you
Speaker 1: kind of wait, yeah, yeah, there's a po of her
Speaker 1: closed off from me. Still I sense it. I don't
Speaker 1: think she intends to do it, but we Mama's no,
Speaker 1: and I know it stems from that. I feel like
Speaker 1: that we are mirrors of one another because I feel
Speaker 1: that with Jada too, and I feel it when I
Speaker 1: think about the relationship that Jada has with Willow. But
Speaker 1: I understand my role in that and I understand why
Speaker 1: that is, and so um, I know, I know I've
Speaker 1: forgiven myself. I know it's hard it think. Yeah, some
Speaker 1: things you're good with it, and some tastes because you're
Speaker 1: thinking the back of your head. Well, maybe if I
Speaker 1: had done just a little like her fame and started coming,
Speaker 1: it made me fierce and like want to be even
Speaker 1: more protective. I feel her pushed me away more emotionally.
Speaker 1: You guys raised you want us to be thoughtful, independent women.
Speaker 1: From the moment I was on this planet, you were like,
Speaker 1: don't rely on anybody else to do for you, do
Speaker 1: it for you. Then we started doing it. But I
Speaker 1: don't like, well no, no, no, do it do it
Speaker 1: in a way that includes me. I wasn't accustomed to
Speaker 1: check in because I'm used to just do and this
Speaker 1: is what got me. Jamal Hill Donald Trump, I'm like what.
Speaker 1: On September eleven, sen Jamal posted a series of twelve
Speaker 1: tweets that caused a tidal wave of controversy. I unloaded
Speaker 1: on Trump, explaining why he was a threat to our
Speaker 1: democracy and a racist. But the tweet that grabbed everyone's
Speaker 1: attention was Donald Trump is a white supremacist who has
Speaker 1: largely surrounded himself with other white supremacists. I added that
Speaker 1: Trump is unqualified and unfit to be president. He is
Speaker 1: not a leader, and if he were not white, he
Speaker 1: never would have been elected. Two days later, the White
Speaker 1: House officially responded, I think that's one of the more
Speaker 1: outrageous comments that anyone could make, and certainly something that
Speaker 1: I think is firable offense about ESPN, I have been
Speaker 1: receiving a ton of hate mail, including several death threats.
Speaker 1: I read some of it, and I was especially amused
Speaker 1: by the people who called me while also claiming they
Speaker 1: weren't racist. So I'm calling a white House, I'm like
Speaker 1: what thelass is calling the White House? If she willow
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm saying, I find the stuff out
Speaker 1: your wives, if you found out something about your grandma,
Speaker 1: your mom, your family that I didn't know exactly every
Speaker 1: day that happened. I have to sometimes won won my
Speaker 1: children to know what they are. And I talked to
Speaker 1: them every day, Okay, okay, tell me like they're not.
Speaker 1: I'm like, whoa, Because I thought it was just her
Speaker 1: rejecting me. I've received it like, yeah, she doesn't even
Speaker 1: want me in this priv like that's that's how I know.
Speaker 1: I took it like that. And I'll tell you what,
Speaker 1: if you just trust the love that you've put in
Speaker 1: your daughter's heart and the love that she has for you,
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a moment that you're gonna be able
Speaker 1: to show up for her. You don't have to force it.
Speaker 1: It happened with my mother when I had my kids. Okay,
Speaker 1: she was like, this is it, this is the moment
Speaker 1: I love my Gamby. Yeah, I felt that on your
Speaker 1: wedding days, man, I was like shat with Yeah. You
Speaker 1: were like, no, just take some conditioner. And that was
Speaker 1: and that was a right. I have to say, and
Speaker 1: I say this all the time when I talked about
Speaker 1: my journey, that there were words that Jada said to me.
Speaker 1: That really was almost like a lightbulb clicking off from me.
Speaker 1: And I was on the phone one night crying to you.
Speaker 1: You were in college, crying to you about whatever trauma
Speaker 1: I was going through. I had broken out with Rodney,
Speaker 1: and you know, I was miserable, and you were like, Mom,
Speaker 1: it doesn't have anything to do with Rodney. It doesn't
Speaker 1: have anything to do with anybody but yourself. How were
Speaker 1: you when you have got to get yourself together? And
Speaker 1: when you get together, everything else will fall into place.
Speaker 1: A lot of times they had to be the mama's force,
Speaker 1: didn't there right saying it was more my mama than
Speaker 1: I was. I always said that, and that's not that
Speaker 1: that's sad to have to say you're not alone saying
Speaker 1: that myself that same I've told her that the same thing. So,
Speaker 1: Mr n you talked a bit about you were molested
Speaker 1: by your uncle and people not believing you, and then
Speaker 1: on top of that you having to endure horrific rape. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was coming home from work, me and a friend.
Speaker 1: I had dropped her off and this guy came with
Speaker 1: a park a lot with a gun. It said, bit,
Speaker 1: come on, let's go and uh. He took me into
Speaker 1: a white band and he drove me around, uh to
Speaker 1: this like a truck yard that gun to the head,
Speaker 1: and I talked to him about my daughter. I said,
Speaker 1: please let me get back to my little girl. I'm
Speaker 1: the only one that she has in this whole world
Speaker 1: to take care of her. And I stayed calm. The
Speaker 1: detective said, that's the best thing you did, because you
Speaker 1: would have been dead after the last go around, because
Speaker 1: they don't just do it. One stayed a couple of
Speaker 1: times and stuff. Man. I think that he went to
Speaker 1: zip up his pants and I saw a light on
Speaker 1: the van door and like, if you don't get out now,
Speaker 1: and I ran. I just jetted out the darn door
Speaker 1: and I ran zig zag. I had the fourth thoughter run,
Speaker 1: so I said, if he shoots, the bullet goes straight,
Speaker 1: maybe I get shot in the leg, maybe the arm.
Speaker 1: But I'm a run. And I slid under this truck
Speaker 1: bed adjacent to where the tires was, and I almost
Speaker 1: have stayed there. Was seemed like hours because I saw
Speaker 1: the van driving around and stuff. He was driving around,
Speaker 1: so for what seemed like maybe years went by. I
Speaker 1: got to a to a phone booth and there's this
Speaker 1: guy walking and he's I said, I've just been raped,
Speaker 1: and and he was gonna give me a I said, no,
Speaker 1: don't come near me. Don't. He threw the quarter on
Speaker 1: the ground, and then I called and said, this is
Speaker 1: what had happened. Right. I just want to say, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry, thank you, but that's not me that he
Speaker 1: said here should be more than Okay, she's here right now.
Speaker 1: I love that to tell somebody, don't give up your
Speaker 1: life to nobody. Whether that assailant is a physical one
Speaker 1: or spiritual one, nobody has that right to take that
Speaker 1: from you. Fight, fight, do what you gotta do, but
Speaker 1: don't don't just give it up. I love it. Thank
Speaker 1: you for that word. That was beautiful. Thank you for
Speaker 1: that word came from him because I and after that incident,
Speaker 1: the drug use became more more. Yeah, it took some years.
Speaker 1: Nobody becomes a dope thing like overnight. You don't wake
Speaker 1: up to be that your goal. So it was progressive, Jamal,
Speaker 1: how does it steal here you tell that story? I
Speaker 1: guess for me, it's still heart wrenching to hear. My
Speaker 1: mother did everything they tell you to do, called the police, immediately,
Speaker 1: had to rape kid, right, all of that happened at
Speaker 1: the hospital, went through all of that told the police
Speaker 1: described her as saying, all of that, when did you
Speaker 1: hear from the police again, I never heard from now,
Speaker 1: Oh you didn't hear from whatever ever exactly. This is
Speaker 1: why I had a passion for justice related issues, even
Speaker 1: within sports, because I had to live with somebody who
Speaker 1: had to not just go through that, but the fallout
Speaker 1: from that was just so severe, and even going through
Speaker 1: my own experience, I was never raped. Right, Um, when
Speaker 1: somebody tried to rape me, I knew exactly what to do.
Speaker 1: And the reason why I knew what to do is
Speaker 1: because of her. When Jamal was twelve, her mom's good
Speaker 1: friend and neighbor, Miss Francis, would watch her after school.
Speaker 1: We spend a good amount of time at Miss Francis's house,
Speaker 1: but one night, when my mother had a date, she
Speaker 1: actually let me stay the night. Miss Francis's brother, Cornell,
Speaker 1: also stayed there, and I had always gotten really strange
Speaker 1: vibes from him. Jamal says, while in a deep sleep,
Speaker 1: she woke up after feeling a strange breeze on her legs.
Speaker 1: With my eyes still closed, I reached down to try
Speaker 1: to pull some additional covers over me. I was almost
Speaker 1: back to sleep when I noticed that Cornell was sitting
Speaker 1: on the edge of the bed, staring at me in
Speaker 1: a way that made me feel exposed. I was too
Speaker 1: aware of my body. A knot of tension sat in
Speaker 1: the pit of my stomach, and I suddenly felt edgy
Speaker 1: as adrenaline surged through me and so um. I was
Speaker 1: instantly terrified because I was like, this is not right.
Speaker 1: Immediately knew something was wrong, and just remembering parts of
Speaker 1: my mother's story that I knew at that point, I
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I need to really be calm in
Speaker 1: this moment. I'm gonna pretend that I have to go
Speaker 1: use the bathroom to get past him to go downstairs,
Speaker 1: because it's just like an act, right, So I pretend
Speaker 1: to do this. I was like, okay, and so I
Speaker 1: just acted like it was no big deal. But I'm terrified.
Speaker 1: So I go to make a mood to go past him,
Speaker 1: and he grabs me and throws me on the bed,
Speaker 1: and then that's when the other thing I remember, my
Speaker 1: mother told me kick's to fight right straight up. Even
Speaker 1: at that moment, not even fully understanding the depth of
Speaker 1: her trauma. I knew whatever she was going through, I
Speaker 1: didn't want to go through that. I was thinking, even
Speaker 1: at that age, you got to kill me. It's just
Speaker 1: like I was like, you got to kill me. So
Speaker 1: I just fought. I scratched, I need, I kicked, and
Speaker 1: I think he was really surprised that I didn't just
Speaker 1: lay there and just let him do whatever. And I
Speaker 1: struggled to the point where I warned my way out,
Speaker 1: got up, rand woke the whole housel. How yeah, And
Speaker 1: I was like, call my mother right now, because she
Speaker 1: always told me, if anybody ever tries to violate you
Speaker 1: in any way, tell me. So, Denise, what did you
Speaker 1: do when you got there? I just leaped. She was
Speaker 1: choking this dude out and then was pulling me off
Speaker 1: of him. He said, yeah, when you list on the date,
Speaker 1: you didn't care. And that's how they do that. They
Speaker 1: throw it off off them to make you look like
Speaker 1: a slut. See, it's just a brutal world out there,
Speaker 1: the devils there walking. I don't know how else I
Speaker 1: would have handled that if I did not have a
Speaker 1: mother who had been through it. That's right. And so
Speaker 1: by the time you were twelve, your mother had already
Speaker 1: talked to you about her always. See now I want
Speaker 1: to take a minute with this. That's important. This is important, okay,
Speaker 1: because I feel like a lot of times we don't
Speaker 1: have these real conversations with our daughters. And it's the
Speaker 1: one thing that I learned with Willow. It's like, I'm
Speaker 1: not telling you this just to be an annoying other.
Speaker 1: Let me just put you on game, right, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. And the fact that your mom took
Speaker 1: a horrific experience, it was like, no, I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: to share this with my daughter and through this educate
Speaker 1: her because I don't want her to go through this.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of times, through our own guilt,
Speaker 1: through our own shame, we will withhold these stories. But
Speaker 1: I think as women, as mothers, it is so important
Speaker 1: that we share these stories because that saved you, I guess,
Speaker 1: to bring you full circle. Despite whatever ups and downs
Speaker 1: our relationship have gone through, you showed up and arguably
Speaker 1: the most critical moment of my life. And I didn't
Speaker 1: even ask you to show up, right, I didn't have
Speaker 1: to ask you. You were just there on the side.
Speaker 1: You were there, and so that should be test improof
Speaker 1: that when it matters, absolutely, I will lean on you
Speaker 1: when it does. I want you to take that in
Speaker 1: of what she just said, because you raised a strong,
Speaker 1: confident woman. So it might be areas that she doesn't
Speaker 1: need you in, but she knows, she knows, Okay, she
Speaker 1: knows when she needs you, and you just gotta trust that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and just yeah and then what Yeah, it's like it
Speaker 1: was very critical. And then after that you took me
Speaker 1: to the police station because I told you I wanted
Speaker 1: to follow a report and I asked you to Yeah.
Speaker 1: You asked me, like, do you want to follow a report?
Speaker 1: And I said, yes, I do, And so they took
Speaker 1: down all the information and everything, just like my mother
Speaker 1: never heard from the police again. Well, I'm gonna tell you,
Speaker 1: I'm really hoping that people buy your book, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, because your story is really powerful. I'm
Speaker 1: really glad to know more about your history. It gives
Speaker 1: us a clear understanding also of why and how you
Speaker 1: were able to navigate what you have that white corporate world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: masculine energy that you've had to deal with in the
Speaker 1: sports industry, Gamby. This is why I tell people all
Speaker 1: the time, I was like, listen, doctor shop going off
Speaker 1: on me is like in the scope of worst things
Speaker 1: that have ever happened to me, And I got to
Speaker 1: be honest, it's like that part. So, Jamal, you have
Speaker 1: a lot of fans out there and they were very
Speaker 1: excited for you in your new book, and a few
Speaker 1: of them have sent some love. Why do I love Jamal?
Speaker 1: She's a truth teller. She tells it like it is,
Speaker 1: no matter what, no matter who's listening now, no matter
Speaker 1: what's on the line, no no matter what it may
Speaker 1: cost her, she says the impactful thing. She says the
Speaker 1: hard thing that actually leads to change. She she's something
Speaker 1: beyond brave. I I love Jamal. She is inspiring, she
Speaker 1: is wildly funny, and she's changed me. Our group chat changed. Congratulations.
Speaker 1: So my friend has written a wonderful book that is
Speaker 1: going to be a bestseller. I already know that. When
Speaker 1: I read your book, the lesson that I took away
Speaker 1: was loyalty. You've been loyal to yourself this entire time,
Speaker 1: as long as I've known you. You've never deviated from
Speaker 1: your story. You've always spoken the truth, but in such
Speaker 1: a way that people can understand that there's logic to it.
Speaker 1: Or you've represented balance, loyalty, and fairness, and you're sharing
Speaker 1: that in your story and I'm just so grateful to
Speaker 1: be a witness and live the story with you up
Speaker 1: close and personal. Hey, Jaanel, what's happened to me? I
Speaker 1: was just wanted to say congratulations on your new books
Speaker 1: and we love you very much and wish you so
Speaker 1: much luck and supporting you. Hund A, good luck, God
Speaker 1: bless you, hey and go green. Congratulation awesome. Alright, Magic,
Speaker 1: Remember that I expect you to buy the most books,
Speaker 1: so I expect the order of five plus from you.
Speaker 1: But I'm really grateful to have you know good people
Speaker 1: that um you know, I admired them from Afar and
Speaker 1: then when I actually got to know them, it's like
Speaker 1: they just are really tremendous. Well, we have one more
Speaker 1: super special one from someone you call your rock. You
Speaker 1: did it, babe, Congratulations. I want to congratulate you and
Speaker 1: creating the masterpiece and sharing your world with the whole world.
Speaker 1: I know you never intended to write a memoir. That's
Speaker 1: what the world wanted. You created a masterpiece. I just
Speaker 1: want to let you know how proud I am of you,
Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for sharing your world.
Speaker 1: You're gonna help so many people and enlightened so many people.
Speaker 1: Mommy d thank you for raising I love this and
Speaker 1: I love y'all. So let's bring Dr Anita Phillips into
Speaker 1: the conversation. She is a nationally acclaimed trauma therapist whose
Speaker 1: advice has helped thousands. Hi, thank you for joining the table.
Speaker 1: I'm just sitting here as a mom who has a
Speaker 1: daughter listening, and it's so important to tell our stories
Speaker 1: to our children, even when it's scary. One of the
Speaker 1: things that hasn't come up today whether trauma is they
Speaker 1: are not personality who personality differences. We are not born
Speaker 1: a blank slate. We're born with a temperament that is
Speaker 1: the cornerstone of our personality. Mom's there who have more
Speaker 1: than one kid, you know they were different in the wound.
Speaker 1: And we don't come here blank. And I've heard a
Speaker 1: lot today from you, Jada, from you Jamal that I'm
Speaker 1: just personality typing y'all like click cick, clicklick click. And
Speaker 1: one of the traits that I hear is a particular
Speaker 1: or type that doesn't like to need that is inborn.
Speaker 1: It's not because of your environment. It is not because
Speaker 1: of your mother's. You were born with a personality type
Speaker 1: that doesn't like to need. Now, let's say you have
Speaker 1: a mother loves to feel needed. That's a personality difference.
Speaker 1: And so then when someone who's personality says I don't
Speaker 1: like to need is in relationship with someone who wants
Speaker 1: to be needed, it's like opposite magnets pushing apart. And
Speaker 1: that's not trauma. It's just a personality difference. Thank you God.
Speaker 1: If I'm a metal hanger and you twist me into
Speaker 1: a different shape, baby, I'm still metal. How is metal
Speaker 1: from the start? And I'm metal now? So trauma shapes us,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't make us. And a lot of times
Speaker 1: we can become so frustrated trying to figure out what's
Speaker 1: the trauma and what's me and unravel that or just
Speaker 1: give it all to the trauma. God. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Dr Nita. This was really helpful. Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. When she was talking about need,
Speaker 1: I got triggered. Me too, Yeah, I got completely and
Speaker 1: utterly triggered. It was like no, no, no needs, not
Speaker 1: a that's not in a vocabulator. It brought up in
Speaker 1: me a place that I still need work around because
Speaker 1: I have a very difficult time with needing. You think
Speaker 1: that makes you feel weak. I think it makes me
Speaker 1: feel way too vulnerable, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I get that. Yes. One thing that I want to
Speaker 1: say to both of you, you are strong, black, powerful women,
Speaker 1: and you both have been through this journey and you've
Speaker 1: learned who you are and you are walking in your
Speaker 1: truth and I love it. I love both of you all,
Speaker 1: and I'm so proud and happy for you. Damn and everybody.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to go out there and buy that book,
Speaker 1: all right, right? Ye? Thank you? Thank you for everything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this was great. You keep shining. Thank you, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much. I told your mama, thank everything. It's so perfect.
Speaker 1: I'm just like super grateful. Were so grateful to have you.
Speaker 1: You keep shining too. To join the Red Table Talk
Speaker 1: family and become a part of the conversation, follow us
Speaker 1: at facebook dot com slash red table Talk. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast produced
Speaker 1: by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.