WEBVTT - "I Saw My Mother Falling Apart" Journalist Jemele Hill + Her Mom's First Interview 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.720 Hey, fam, I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.080 Red Table Pop podcast all your favorite episodes from the 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:10.280 Facebook Watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:13.360 I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.079 on Apple podcasts. I think she's still angry. I am not. 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.919 I am not angry and ant t exclusive Emmy Award 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:23.599 winning journalist Jamal Hill. My mother showed me what a 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:26.560 piece of crack cocaine looked like and her mom in 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.639 their first interview ever. I was mad that I couldn't 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.000 have this normal childhood. How they ended generations of pain. 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:35.800 When I was about maybe six years old and my 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:40.400 mother was raped, my mother's brother sexually abused me. Our 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.560 first experimented with herold actually twelve years old. What I realized, 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.120 what I've done in my child It's the only thing 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.800 that could break me. Mom, you've turned the drugs that 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.600 you were young. I just had so much grief just 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.600 about a lost childhood. If I could change anything, I 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.680 would not want to lift this life again. That way, 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.959 sharing our journeys house people understand how to navigate their 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.040 own journeys. Do you know your mother's story? This is 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.080 better than therapy and They called it the Table for 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:18.000 a reason, So this is gonna be a really great show. 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:23.760 Our special guest, Emmy winning journalists Jamal Hill says she 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:26.920 inherited the generational pain of her mother and has spent 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.080 years working to break the traumatic legacy passed on to 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.319 her to forge a new path in the male dominated 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:38.440 world of sports journalism. Jamal Hill has earned respect for 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:43.000 her unbothered attitude and fearless opinions. By the way the 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:45.200 team was bad and given how bad they were and 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.120 how he played, I think that says a lot. She 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.800 made headlines and was bombarded with death threats after she 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:56.920 called them President Donald Trump a white supremacist. Jamal's childhood 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.520 was filled with harsh realities. Her single mother was sexually 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.160 abused by her uncle, abducted and raped at gunpoint by 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:08.640 a stranger, and struggled with her addiction to heroin. For 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.840 the first time, Jamal is opening up about her painful 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.000 past that shaped her into the woman she is today. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:24.720 Let's welcome the wonderful and beautiful Jamal Hill. Hello, everybody, 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:30.720 I know I'll take to see you. How is everything? Oh? 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:36.920 How's everything? Thank you? So? Jamal has written beautiful and 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:41.400 inspiring memoir called Uphill, which is a great title. So 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.120 I know your mom is gonna be joining us shortly 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:46.840 for her first interview with you, which is going to 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.560 be really awesome. I want to ask you, when did 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:54.000 you realize that things were not quite right in your family? 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.919 Because I know for Jada, she knew that young. I 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.080 knew it really young. Well, I would say when, and 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:02.760 I was about six years old, and that was where 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:06.960 my mother was raped. The fallout from that just kept happening. 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.320 I just saw my mother falling apart. As a kid, 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.600 you you know something is wrong, but you don't know 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.040 how to put the finger on it. And as um 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.200 she continued to work through what we know now is PTSD, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.400 all I could see was her slipping away. And what happens, 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.919 as you know, Jada, when you're the child of somebody 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.960 who's in addiction, is that you absorbed so much of 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:33.040 that you enable you navigate around. And all I could 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.920 do was being mad about the fact that I couldn't 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.600 have this normal childhood and I couldn't really explain to 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.840 people why, and it felt like so much was being taken. 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.080 How did you see your mom slipping away? A lot 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.360 of ways my mother got divorced, we were evicted from 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:51.360 our home in Detroit. We had to live in a 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.000 very rough neighborhood. I mean so rough. In fact, the 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.360 woman who lived next door to her, she got murdered. 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.400 And so my mother, already suffering from the pts of 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.480 having been raped, sent her into a spiral. And so 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.640 one of the harsher incidents is the night my mother 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:08.560 showed me what a piece of crack cocaine looked like. 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:13.560 And she's dealing with trying to understand the pain that 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.440 she is in. But at the same time, mother enough 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.679 to tell me, do not do this ever. I'm suffering 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.240 from something I don't even understand. But I know one thing. 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.240 I don't want you to trade places with me, you know. 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.520 And and so that's when I knew she is not okay. 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.440 And I don't really know what this is, but I 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.280 just don't know how she's going to get out of it, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.280 how we're going to get out of it. Seeing her 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.240 battle with this addiction and battle with that fear just 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.200 always be present, it was obviously something I was absorbing, 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.640 and so it made me a bit of a porcupine 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.839 in terms of, like I did not want to share anything, 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:52.640 because I was like, man, this vulnerability stuff is costly. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.200 Your father wasn't in the house with you. He wasn't 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:00.640 When my mother met my father, he didn't know he 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.240 had been using heroin on and off. He and my 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.160 mother began to fight on a regular basis, and I 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.800 don't mean just verbally. They sometimes gotten into physical fights, 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:13.360 and my mother never backed down. If my father hit her, 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.520 my mother hit him right back. The end of their 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.440 relationship came when my mother arrived home from work one 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.800 day to find my father passed out on the toilet. 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.520 He helped me with one arm, and in his other 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.799 arm was a heroin needle. My mother called my grandmother 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.039 and asked her to come get us. That was the 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.280 last time my father, mother, and I lived together under 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:39.080 one roof. Once me and my mother really started having 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:44.360 some struggles, just knowing that he was not reliable just 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.400 angered me. And I think even now I struggle with that. 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:49.480 I love my father, but like I can't say our 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:52.640 relationship is in the place it needs to be. I 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.520 feel like there's a lot of parallel lines between you 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.640 and I and your mother and my mother. So Jamal 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.960 and her mom have never sat down for an interview together. 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.360 We are so honored that they're doing it at the table. 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:12.279 So Jamaale introduced us to your well, I guess um, 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:22.560 it feels like a worldwide debut. Everybody can meet my mom, Denise. Welcome, welcome, welcome, 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:26.000 Thank you for having me, thank you for me, thank 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:31.240 you for the wonderful treatment. I feel like a queen triplets. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:38.320 So how are you? This has been uh roller coaster 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:45.359 train record times and we're talking. So this is good. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:47.880 This is real good. So when you say you talking, 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:52.200 you mean that the the just talking through things, talking talking, 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:03.040 just talking. We're talking, you're talking to one another. I've 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.480 been telling her, I said, you need to get some help. 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.960 When I got told me so, I said, uh, maybe 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.240 I think you angry, and you have every right to 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.440 be angry. I didn't press her because I wanted to 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.760 give her what my mama never gave me. Gave me. 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.120 My mama never gave me a chance to be angry 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.920 because he was her brother that sexually abused me from 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:30.240 four to eleven. Jamale describes her grandmother as a highly 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:34.040 functioning alcoholic. When she drink to the point of passing out, 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.440 her great uncle Edward would often be left in charge 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.720 of Jamal's mother. My mother told my grandmother about the abuse, 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.760 and my grandmother chose not to believe her. When my 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.160 mother was eleven or twelve years old, my grandmother invited 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.080 Edward to come live with him, even though she knew 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.240 what he done. My mother retaliated by running away from home. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.120 My grandmother couldn't accept that her own brother had sexually 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.440 abused her old. She couldn't face that the reason he 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.880 had access to my mother, the reason his abuse continued 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.560 for years, was because of her. It was a betrayal 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:14.480 that changed the direction of my mother's life. So then 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.640 I started acting out. That's just how the trauma started. 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.520 So I just ran away and hung out with the 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:25.680 wrong people. So, Denise, what made you actually turn the drugs. 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.520 I wasn't looking for abus, so to speak. I was 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.360 just looking to get away from myself because I didn't 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.079 know how to deal with me. I was insecure. I 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:36.640 didn't like the way I looked. I didn't like the 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:41.280 way I felt because I felt inferior because my family 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.520 they had made me feel this way, you know, with 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.440 my uncle and stuff. Because you know what the family gathers. 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:48.599 They wouldn't they don't want me. They always made me 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.200 feel like I was a liar. And so I first 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:55.240 experimented with HEROLD actually twelve years old, and I didn't 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:59.200 like anything about me. I didn't like my life. I 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.959 thought that I was a failure and I actually shouldn't 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.480 even be on the planet. So so it was your escape. Yeah, 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.400 and I didn't even know that story. Like, I didn't 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:12.480 realize you started experimenting so young, And I was like, what, mom, 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.760 you've turned the drugs that you were young? Yeah, I was. 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:20.000 But I always felt just totally uncomfortable in my own 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.720 scam me too, So I wanted somebody loved me. So 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.160 I had my daughter. One of my outlets, you know, 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.640 during all this time of tumultuousness, was was writing. I 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:32.800 kept the journal. I vented in this diary a lot. 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.319 I said some very unflattering things about my mother in it. 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.280 One day I came home from school and to my 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.560 complete horror, my mother was sitting at our dining room 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.960 table reading the pages from my journal. I could see 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.920 the anger in her face, and I knew, based off 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.680 what I had written in that journal, my punishment was 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:55.959 going to be severe. I was humiliated and mortified. Thinking 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.640 about all the things that were in that journal. I 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.160 called her a horror and a drug addict. I had 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.840 even threatened to beat my mother up the line. I 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.760 wrote that I will never forget the very line that 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.520 triggered her the most. She's lucky she's bigger than me, 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:14.000 or else I would drum kick her ass. I just 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.000 come home with school one day, and the most frightening 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.599 thing you can ever imagine is your mother with you, 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.040 with your diary, sitting right there, waiting for you to 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:28.960 answer to what you have done. And so that did 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:34.080 not go well. Yeah, although they can laugh about it now, 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.920 Jamal writes that what happened that day was anything but funny. 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.520 My mother didn't see those entries as harmless venting. At 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.600 some point during our heated argument, my mother began beating 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.800 my ass. I am not sure where the first blow landed, 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.319 but it felt as if my mother had four sets 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.840 of hands. I tried to cover up my face as 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:57.640 much as I could. Oh, you think you're gonna disrespect 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:00.840 me and my house? It didn't take long, but it 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.640 looked like she fit just about everything I owned into 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.840 two trash bags. After that, my mother ordered me to 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.599 get into her car, a Babe Chevette, and tossed the 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.079 garbage bags into the back seat. She called me ungrateful 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.200 as she drove. She also called me a bit. My 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.839 mother pulled up in front of a tall building called 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.719 Harbor Light. It was the rehabilitation center where my biological 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:26.520 father had undergone treatment for his alcohol and heroin addiction. 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.200 The last thing she said before she hopped out the 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.960 car and went inside was along the lines of, since 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.640 I'm such a bad parent, your daddy can have you now? 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.120 After a couple of anxiety field hours for me, that is, 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.040 my mother picked me up and I remember thinking that 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.600 my mother hated me. I wasn't sorry about what I wrote. 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.560 I needed her to know that her actions were hurting me. 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.800 She wasn't in this alone. I guess that was my 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.880 mother's point too. She was all I had drunk, drug 0:11:56.080 --> 0:12:01.840 or indifferent. Wow, look at you like, yeah, what are you? 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:06.679 And are you still angry? In the public media, I 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:11.080 can ask in a safe does I think so? I mean, 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.480 I am not. I am not angry. But it's funny 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.520 because that's the point I start the book, is that 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.600 about how I started going to therapy because my mother 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.320 said I think you're angry and you just don't know 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:29.960 you're angry, and maybe you need to see somebody. I'm like, literally, 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:32.679 what are you talking about? So I was like, well, 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.160 maybe I shall start seeing somebody just to see if 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.679 this is true. And you know what I found out 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.439 is like that I wasn't angry. You were angry. I'm 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:45.840 not angry. Sometimes what mother's interpret as anger is just 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:50.760 pushback or even wanting you to be respectful of certain boundaries. 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.079 So it wasn't necessarily anger at all. Like I told 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.160 you a long time ago, repeatedly, I have forgiven you 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.600 for everything. I understand you so much more now and 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.920 knowing more of your story. I always respected and admire 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.600 you because there are situations and circumstances that you went 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.120 through and overcame that would have literally broken most people. 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.760 And the fact that that didn't happen, and that you're 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.360 here with me right now, there's nothing for me to 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.000 be angry about. Of course, in a minute, I would 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.120 have changed any of the pain that you went through, 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.960 but I would not have changed the journey because we 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.840 wouldn't be sitting here in this way able to deliver 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.720 this story two people like this if not for that, 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.200 and that's why I'm not angry about it. See its 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.280 And it's when you hear this these kinds of details 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.600 about someone else's life, then you understand. You can kind 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.360 of oh, so that's why she's made the choices that 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.320 she did. When you can start to understand someone else's 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.320 trauma and like really see that, you kind of go wow, 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.280 like you put yourself kind of in their shoes. Yeah, yeah, 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:58.960 I think you know, um our stories aren't unique. Sharing 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.600 our journeys house understand how to navigate their own journeys. 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.280 And I realized in my therapeutic sessions that I was 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:11.640 sitting on so much grief. Yeah, that anger was the 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:16.160 safe defense. And I also felt so much that I 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.200 missed so much that I thought I deserved, you know, 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.560 and I just had so much grief just about a 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:27.440 lost childhood. I think the what you missed really really 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:32.960 was the nurturing. Yeah, just the nurturing protection and having 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.840 to grow up quick. And I didn't have a lot 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.000 of time to think about it in the mix of it, 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.560 because I was just going I was like, just what 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.280 it is, I'm navigating, I'm just getting through. So by 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.240 the time I had time to sit and be with it. 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.720 I was like, oh my goodness, I hadn't even realized 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:53.520 I had like this, this this wall of ice around myself, 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:58.560 like over here the porcupine. Yeah, it's like the protection porcupine. 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.840 That's really good. That's perfect. When you said you were 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.160 sitting a lot of grief and regret, I don't know. 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.720 I want to ask you, don't you think that's the 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.280 hardest part in journeys like us. It's when you realize 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.720 what I've done in my child. It's hard to reconcile that. 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.720 In two thousand and twenty two, it's the only thing 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.520 that could break me the worst. You should have been 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:23.280 value more from me. I'll do more than own it. 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:28.200 I embrace it because if I don't, it would it 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.720 would it would prove me unworthy of you. I mean, 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.640 what I stole from you can't be replaced. And that's 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.280 the hardest part. Do you I spoke with I felt like, 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.720 you know, hey, that's that's my baby over it, six 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:46.400 seven years old and her mom's not there and I 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:52.600 can't get tour man. I totally okay, it's okay. I 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.080 totally understand my feeling. I lived in that guilt for 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:59.320 a really really long time. Yeah, I needed to express that. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.360 You said something to Demel and Jada says it all 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.960 the time, going through this journey has made you who 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:11.160 you are and you would never change anything. I disagree 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:16.440 with that. I disagree with that because I would not 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:25.120 I know, I know, I know, there's no words. If 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:30.600 I could change any Stan, I would not want to 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:37.760 slip this life again that way because she deserves so 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:42.800 much Any child, any child, deserves so much better, and 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.600 she certainly did. And I understand that what you went 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.240 through made you the person that you are, and I 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.840 get that too, But could we have not gotten there 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.960 a different way? Who knows what you would have been. 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.200 I think that we we say that as our own 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.360 defense because we know that there's nothing we can do 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.000 to change it. Well, so you say that to make 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.120 you okay with the life that you've you've lived. But 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.560 trust me, if we could do it differently, we would 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.480 do it differently. And I understand that mine I could 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.639 totally get it right. And I understand from your perspective 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:22.959 as mothers, I I agree with you. But what I 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.239 will say for Jamal and I the fact that we 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.359 were lucky to make it out and the fact that 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.840 we were lucky enough to have the level of telligence, 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:36.840 level of courage, and the level of just no nonsense 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.680 for the environments that we had to go into. God, 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.520 God has a plan, Yeah, because I was gonna say 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:47.320 it was a lucky plan. Right. We got, we got 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.399 the experiences, I believe, and the mothers that we were 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.520 supposed to have so that we could achieve the things 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.359 that we needed to achieve. I was fully prepared to 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.480 come out to l A at the age of eight 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:03.359 team by myself. I could navigate through the fake lion, 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.399 tigers and bears out here in the industry because I 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.879 had done with real lions, tigers and bears on the street. 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.720 And I would imagine you correct me if I'm wrong. 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.680 The places that Jamal has been and what she's had 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.239 to deal with, she might not have been able to 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:21.160 do that without the level of adversity that she had 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.400 as a child, right, and the same with me. Now, 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.960 could we have had less trauma, I'll give you that. Okay, 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.440 we could have had less trauma, no doubt about it. 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.719 But we are both grateful for the adversity because there 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.280 is no way she would have been able to survive 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:42.119 what she has survived the level of attack. You know 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.800 what I'm saying. The reason why she's so gangsters because 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:53.960 of the adversity situation. Even though I pursued a non 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.320 traditional career, my mother always supported me in it. She 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:02.080 had all her paperwork, financial aid school picked out. She said, well, 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:04.240 now my mom gonna have to go top ten. I said, baby, 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:06.760 and I don't know. I think I had a Ford 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.320 could forty five or something. I said, I don't know 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.800 what you're gonna but whatever you're gonna be, just if 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:15.720 you even if you're going to be a clown, we 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.800 better find the best clown university for you to go 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:22.280 to be the best. Added. Yeah, even though my journey 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.200 has not been smoothed, I didn't relive what you went through, 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:28.359 and I'm grateful for that. As painful as what you 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.240 have gone through, this is where the trauma and our 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.520 family was broken. I don't want you to ever think 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:38.680 it was in vain because it wasn't beautiful. It wasn't that. 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.600 It's like things are coming for a circle. I'm understanding 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:47.679 what I did. This is better than therapy. They call 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.800 it the table for a RESI Denise, do you feel 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:56.119 like you have forgiven yourself sometimes, you know, sometime you 0:19:56.200 --> 0:20:00.280 kind of wait, yeah, yeah, there's a po of her 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.920 closed off from me. Still I sense it. I don't 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.359 think she intends to do it, but we Mama's no, 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:07.760 and I know it stems from that. I feel like 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.320 that we are mirrors of one another because I feel 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.080 that with Jada too, and I feel it when I 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.280 think about the relationship that Jada has with Willow. But 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.120 I understand my role in that and I understand why 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:27.480 that is, and so um, I know, I know I've 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:33.959 forgiven myself. I know it's hard it think. Yeah, some 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.320 things you're good with it, and some tastes because you're 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:37.960 thinking the back of your head. Well, maybe if I 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:43.080 had done just a little like her fame and started coming, 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.840 it made me fierce and like want to be even 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.400 more protective. I feel her pushed me away more emotionally. 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:53.359 You guys raised you want us to be thoughtful, independent women. 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.159 From the moment I was on this planet, you were like, 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.040 don't rely on anybody else to do for you, do 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.000 it for you. Then we started doing it. But I 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.320 don't like, well no, no, no, do it do it 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.360 in a way that includes me. I wasn't accustomed to 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:12.760 check in because I'm used to just do and this 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:17.000 is what got me. Jamal Hill Donald Trump, I'm like what. 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:22.119 On September eleven, sen Jamal posted a series of twelve 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:26.200 tweets that caused a tidal wave of controversy. I unloaded 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.880 on Trump, explaining why he was a threat to our 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.840 democracy and a racist. But the tweet that grabbed everyone's 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.800 attention was Donald Trump is a white supremacist who has 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:41.239 largely surrounded himself with other white supremacists. I added that 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.800 Trump is unqualified and unfit to be president. He is 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:47.399 not a leader, and if he were not white, he 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.560 never would have been elected. Two days later, the White 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.480 House officially responded, I think that's one of the more 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:57.159 outrageous comments that anyone could make, and certainly something that 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.560 I think is firable offense about ESPN, I have been 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.080 receiving a ton of hate mail, including several death threats. 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.000 I read some of it, and I was especially amused 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.000 by the people who called me while also claiming they 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:13.439 weren't racist. So I'm calling a white House, I'm like 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.080 what thelass is calling the White House? If she willow 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:19.080 you know what, I'm saying, I find the stuff out 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.640 your wives, if you found out something about your grandma, 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:27.280 your mom, your family that I didn't know exactly every 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:30.840 day that happened. I have to sometimes won won my 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.080 children to know what they are. And I talked to 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:38.000 them every day, Okay, okay, tell me like they're not. 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:43.960 I'm like, whoa, Because I thought it was just her 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:46.600 rejecting me. I've received it like, yeah, she doesn't even 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:50.920 want me in this priv like that's that's how I know. 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:52.960 I took it like that. And I'll tell you what, 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.040 if you just trust the love that you've put in 0:22:57.040 --> 0:22:59.919 your daughter's heart and the love that she has for you, 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:02.920 there's gonna be a moment that you're gonna be able 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.320 to show up for her. You don't have to force it. 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:11.440 It happened with my mother when I had my kids. Okay, 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.320 she was like, this is it, this is the moment 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:18.239 I love my Gamby. Yeah, I felt that on your 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:27.040 wedding days, man, I was like shat with Yeah. You 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:33.000 were like, no, just take some conditioner. And that was 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.760 and that was a right. I have to say, and 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:38.639 I say this all the time when I talked about 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:41.640 my journey, that there were words that Jada said to me. 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.800 That really was almost like a lightbulb clicking off from me. 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.720 And I was on the phone one night crying to you. 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:53.960 You were in college, crying to you about whatever trauma 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.440 I was going through. I had broken out with Rodney, 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:01.359 and you know, I was miserable, and you were like, Mom, 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.240