WEBVTT - Lionel Shriver on Immigration, Identity and Why She Refuses to Stay Quiet 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:10.280 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. The United States is 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:14.040 in a unique position because it is hoisted on the 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.840 petard of its own rhetoric. We're a nation of immigrants, 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.040 and therefore there's some kind of follow on from that 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.840 which I don't believe is valid. That we therefore have 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:25.200 no right to keep anybody out. 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:31.639 Lionel Schreiver, whose latest novel is about immigration, do you 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:36.000 think that your fiction has been changed by your immersion 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.440 in social and political issues. 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:41.400 I'm interested in the big issues of my day. If 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.240 I'm going to participate in the world as opposed to 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:50.159 be an artist and write these rarefied pretty sentences, you know, 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.559 that's a choice, and I've made my choice. 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:58.440 From Bloomberg Weekend, this is the Michelle Hussein Show. I'm 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:08.200 Michelle Hussein. More than twenty years ago, Lionel Shreiver made 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:10.840 her name as a novelist with a book called We 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.480 Need to Talk About Kevin. It was a portrait of 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:20.959 motherhood and a marriage alongside a school shooting, and that combination. 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:26.440 That portrait won its author awards and accolades. Since then, 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.319 Shriver has often drawn on contemporary issues in her fiction, 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.880 but perhaps never more so than in her latest a 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:39.160 book called A Better Life. It's set in New York 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.600 in that period of the Biden administration when there were 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.640 large numbers of immigrants crossing the United States southern border, 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:51.280 and that's where our conversation begins with the plot of 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.800 her new book, but we also go back in time 0:01:55.240 --> 0:02:00.160 through America's story and her own. She's the daughter of 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.800 a pastor descended from immigrants, who has chosen to be 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.800 one herself. For much of her adult life. For decades, 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.400 the UK was her home. Then she left for Portugal 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:18.360 for reasons that include immigration. As a companion to this episode, 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.799 I do recommend the written version on Bloomberg dot Com 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.360 because that's where you'll find my notes and added context 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:29.760 on the topics we discuss. First, though, to the story 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.639 of A Better Life. 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.560 Well, I first got the idea for this book watching 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:44.360 then New York City Mayor Eric Adams announced on the 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:49.200 news that the City of New York was planning to 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.400 start a program whereby in order to deal with this 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.079 hundreds of thousands of migrants coming into New York during 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:01.200 the Biden administration, they would pay New Yorkers to put 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.640 migrants in their spare bedrooms is. It turns out this 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:09.360 program never happened, but it did in my book. So 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:15.640 I just thought, that's that's a brilliant setup. After all, 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:17.440 what could go wrong? 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.919 Yeah, well, as I think you're hinting at, plenty does 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.400 in the book. So there's the woman Gloria whose home 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.040 it is Martin, who is the woman from Honduras who 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:32.639 she takes in. And then there's Gloria's son Nico, who 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:37.000 has his own complexities in his life. But is your 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.280 main character really more soon. 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:41.880 Than the midle? I mean, it's all seen through the 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:47.120 eyes of this twenty six year old layabout. He has 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:51.240 an engineering degree but has done absolutely nothing with it. 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.840 He doesn't want to be anything, he doesn't want to 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:59.040 do anything. He aspires to nothing. His life has a 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:04.200 kind of purity to it, and ultimately, of course he 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:05.240 doesn't want to be grown up? 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.720 Right And what are you thinking of real people? Is 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:10.880 that how you work when it comes to your crafty? 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.000 I'm certainly thinking of real people people, you know, well, 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:19.400 the many parents who are housing children in their twenties 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:23.159 and sometimes into their thirties, who don't do anything and 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.880 who don't support themselves and are really into a kind 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.560 of extended adolescence. And there are reasons for that that 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:34.200 are not exclusively Oh, they're just lazy or have no ambition. 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.880 It's sometimes you know, the cost of housing here for example. 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:40.719 In the UK, and in the UK absolutely. 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:44.520 Oh yes, both the likes of London in New York, 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.880 there are a lot of young adults who cannot afford 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.040 to have their own homes, even to rent their own homes. 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:56.440 It's not a mean portrait, but in this case it's 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:03.960 it's a young man who simply boycotting adulthood. And what 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.440 was interesting about writing from that perspective is how sympathetic 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:11.920 I found myself. I mean, it's daunting to face responsibility 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:18.080 for your wife. It's frightening. It comes with the threat 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:22.640 of failure. You know, it's a lot easier and cleaner 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.400 to just decide you don't want anything, and that way 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:26.760 you can't fail to get it. 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.680 But the key dynamic in the book is between Nico 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:34.000 and other members of his family and the migrants who 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.760 end up living in their house, not just the original one, 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.040 but her brother and others. And I'm going to quote 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.119 from a bit because I think that this is about 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.839 three quarters of the way through the book, when there's 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.440 a whole group who I have now arrived in a 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.240 staying put in the house in Brooklyn, that is Nico's 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.520 mother's home. Following the arrival of the collide Quintet, Nico 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.240 finally appreciated what it meant to feel emasculated. Sure, these 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.120 skinheads would do literate. They had phones which they used 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.360 to stream porn, but which were otherwise he sensed instruments 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:08.160 for the giving and taking of orders. That is, their 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:10.840 phones connected them to the material world in which something 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.039 might happen or be made to happen, other than the 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:18.000 delivery of a corn removal kit from Amazon. Out Here 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.360 in the wild, wacky universe of three dimensions, the pandaeios 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.920 did whatever they wanted. They took what they wanted, including 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.200 a nicely done up five bedroom house in Ditmas Park. 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:30.960 It is a metaphor, isn't it for America? I think 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.159 you've said that explicitly. It's about immigrants taking over America. 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:45.479 Yes, uh, Biden let in at least ten million immigrants, 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.719 and we're not sure it could be as much as twenty. 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:53.279 Because you only keep track of the people who want 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:57.160 to be kept track up and the United States is 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:02.960 in a unique position because it is being hoist on 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.720 the pitard of its own rhetoric. That is, we're a 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:11.760 nation of immigrants, and therefore there's some kind of foul 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:16.120 on from that which I don't believe is valid. That 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.800 we therefore have no right to keep anybody out, because 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.880 that would be pulling up the drawbridge, as the expression 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:23.280 has it. 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.840 I mean, that's obviously been part of America's message to 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.160 the world. As I read the book, I was thinking 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.400 about Reagan's farewell speech where he talks about the shining 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.360 city on the Hill and how America is going to 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.760 be a beacon, a magnet for all who must have 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.800 freedom from people from the lost places who are hurtling 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.280 through the darkness towards home. So it's been a sort 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.520 it's been a kind of Rhetorica I'm talking about, and 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:48.840 it's helped make America rich. Right, it continues to be 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:50.840 the most powerful, richest country in the world. 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:55.560 Yes, but don't you don't become rich necessarily. In the 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.000 UK knows this as well, by wetting in a lot 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:03.240 of people who start out poor, are not well educated, 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:07.040 have very few skills, and are going to be net 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.360 takers on your social welfare system. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:14.680 Although economies need all kinds of jobs, care workers, low 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:16.400 income workers. 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.119 Yes, both the Danes and the Dutch have both done 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:26.920 extensive research on particular nationalities and how much on average 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:31.280 they either contribute or cost, and there is a huge disparity. 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:37.760 I mean, I would advocate a more discriminating immigration system 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.880 in the best sense of the word, that is, be choosy. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.959 Let in people who are going to contribute more money 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.920 than they take and who are very likely to assimilate, 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.400 to either speak the language already or learn the language 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:58.040 and join the national project. And I would like to 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:03.160 see both the US and the UK be selective about 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.199 who they let in. I'm sometimes mistaken for somebody who's 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:10.760 just anti immigration, but I'm not at all. I'm an immigrant. Yeah, 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.240 first for many years, and now the Portugal. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.240 We will talk in more detail about your experience in 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.440 the UK. Lanel, I definitely want to come back to that, 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.440 but I would say right now, the UK's immigration system 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:26.600 is incredibly choosy. It gives visas to the people it wants. 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:28.760 But let's just go back to the Okay, let's go 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:31.599 back to the book. Right first of all, because. 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.000 I'm a sucker for talking about this subject matter, so 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.360 I can be easily distracted into just talking. 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:38.960 The subject matter is at the heart of the book. 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:43.600 And I'm struck by how upsetting and enraging the scenes 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:45.840 that you have in the book are, because there is 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.320 a takeover of the house and more. I'm not going 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.720 to give it all away. And I have to tell 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:55.199 you that the book featured in my dreams. I dreamt 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:58.560 that my sons were inviting loads of their friends into 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.280 the house without asking my and I had this image 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:06.400 in my dream of this long line of boys their 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.679 age walking in who hadn't invited, and I woke up 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.400 feeling quite shocked. And then I thought, this book has 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.720 made it into my dreams or my nightmares. So the 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.520 picture you paint is very evocative. But the situation in 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:23.400 the US has completely changed. Now we're speaking early in 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.679 twenty twenty six, and the latest figures show a decline 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.559 in international immigration to the US. 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.360 Yes, I should clarify I'm not a big Trump supporter. 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.600 That's another point that a lot of people miss. 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:37.439 But you didn't vote for me the time. 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.160 I didn't, I didn't vote for anybody. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.240 You didn't vote for anyone last time. But before that 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.520 you've been done. I voted for Biden and before that 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:45.400 Hillary Clinton. 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.520 Yeah, I have been a Democrat. I feel a little 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:54.760 distanced from the party now and I could see myself 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.880 switching to being an independent. I think that's probably more 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:02.520 accurately reflects my political position. But you know, there were 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.000 a lot of Americans who did not vote for either 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.240 candidate in this last presidential election. It's just like, I 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:10.600 can't stand either one of them. 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:15.559 But you approve of the end to it just happening 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:16.480 at the southern border. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.120 It was out of control. It has put enormous pressure 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:26.679 on especially the social care systems of cities, and I 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:32.400 really concerned myself with New York, which was inundated with 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:37.240 more people than it could handle. New York has an 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:42.720 odd and uniquely self destructive policy of promising a right 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.760 to shelter to anyone who arrives, and you almost wonder 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:48.480 why anyone pays rent there. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:55.920 I mean, overall, in terms of welfare and social provision 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.960 in the United States, it is the case as a 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.719 whole that immigrants pay more in taxes than receive in benefits. 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.760 Maybe as a whole, but that's I guess that's what 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:10.120 I'm talking about. 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.880 They experience locally that the. 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:17.360 People who were coming across the border illegally are overwhelmingly 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.280 the kind of migrant that is going to cost the 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.400 US taxpayer money over their lifetime. 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.080 And now that situation is over. So now when you 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.600 look at the latest statistics where not only has there 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.599 been a big decline in immigration, but the overall population 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.560 of the US may start to decline this year. Is 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.120 that a good thing or do you have concerns about 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.599 what it means for economic growth and for the sustainability 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:46.040 of systems into the future. 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:50.440 I think it's a good thing on a sociological level 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:52.560 if you look at the history of the United States 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:54.360 in spite of the fact that you know, we talk 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.360 up the many waves of migrants that we have absorbed, 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.679 and the United States is very proud of us, and 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:04.559 I think would be migrants. Yes, not my parents, but 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:10.559 my great grandparents on both sides came from Germany. What 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:16.120 people seem underaware of is that after absorbing many millions 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.920 of people, almost all of whom were from Europe, so 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:24.679 there was a certain civilizational continuity there. The US shut 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.960 down immigration in nineteen twenty four, let practically nobody in 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:33.720 and that lasted until nineteen sixty five. I think that 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:38.280 period of letting nobody in, not kicking anyone out right, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:46.960 was crucial for knitting together a coherent, unified American population. 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:52.040 That was the kind of successful melding, you know, the 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.240 old a successful melting pot into which I was born, 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.920 and so that when I was born, nobody was hyphenating 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.760 their identity. We were just Americans. 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:04.959 Yeah, And again that was part of the projection of 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.319 America to the world. Come here and you can be Americans. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.760 That was historically what you're and I'm just saying so 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:12.720 we have taken in so many but. 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:17.600 The big difference is demographically. Demographically is that American women 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.840 were having babies in that time. And that's the implication 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.480 of the current statistics, because nowhere in the world have 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:30.000 countries really been able to manage a population decline without immigration, 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.080 because you need to replace your workers, You need people 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.960 who are going to consume as well as be part 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:37.280 of the labor market. 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:42.880 I think that's probably the strongest argument for a permissive 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:48.120 kind of open border immigration policy, but I don't think 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.480 it should be the only consideration. First off, the ideal 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:56.120 solution to this problem is to somehow induce a cultural 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.640 awakening whereby people have more children. 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:01.960 Uh, no ways achieved that. 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:07.960 I am skeptical about that, but that's the ideal. 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.040 But that's why I'm wondering if you have any concerns 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:15.080 about that idea of immigration decline and therefore population decline, 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:19.960 because it does have serious economic considerations into the future. 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:24.200 Yes, but there are serious social and political consequences to 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:29.760 wedding many people in from very different cultures, and I 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:33.320 think that there should be a middle ground there wet 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:38.960 in some people, but preferably give some advantages to the 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.600 more culturally compatible. 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.080 Across the southern border, largely Christian. I mean, they're coming 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:49.680 from culture America's projected its power for so long, the 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:54.280 Monroe doctrine, now the Donro doctrine, that this is our 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:55.320 sphere of influence. 0:15:55.680 --> 0:16:01.600 I think that the overwhelmingly Hispanic immigrants coming up through 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.160 the border during the Biden administration, and it actually just 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.760 historically for the last fifty years, I have a higher 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:14.440 likelihood of ultimately assimilating, especially over multiple generations. 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.640 But you didn't like them, I mean you just said 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.200 you didn't like them coming in those. 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:27.120 Like massive illegal immigration. I am all for legal immigration, okay, 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.400 and the United States would actually do better to loosen 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.400 up on the legal side. I think we should let 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.360 more people in legally and make it easier and cheaper. 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.960 Okay. You've so often in your books there are observations 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:45.480 about America which are so striking, you know, so moving, 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.720 And I was thinking more about the mandibles A portrait 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:54.280 of a family in an America of the future, where 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.640 you have these scenes in that book that are about 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:02.360 government excess and overreach that souldiers budging into people's homes, 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.639 wanton destruction. It made me wonder what you think of 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.960 the tactics of ice now in early twenty twenty six. 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.480 I don't like the tactics. It doesn't mean that I 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.119 think we shouldn't deport anybody. I don't think that the 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:20.640 two shootings in Minneapolis look to me to be justifiable. 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:23.880 I think that the whole look of the operation has 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:29.160 been overly militarized. They don't look like police, they look 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:34.280 like the army. I think it's been too aggressive. On 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.760 the other hand, this whole business of having sanctuary cities 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:43.439 and even sanctuary states means that the authorities are not 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:50.399 cooperating with the federal law enforcement, and since ICE is 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:58.280 prioritizing going after criminal aliens of these sanctuary localities have 0:17:58.480 --> 0:17:59.720 made that much harder. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.119 A lot of the people in ICE detention are not criminals. 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.360 Well, one of the reasons they are ending up arresting 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:11.080 more what's known as the collateral damage of people who 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.199 don't have criminal records, is because they can't just go 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.040 to the jails when these people are being let out 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:21.320 and put them into ICE custody. So I think that 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:27.720 the sanctuary city policy is backfiring in those qualities' own terms, 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:32.639 because if they wanted to protect people who didn't have 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.920 criminal records from deportation, then they're doing the wrong thing. 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.400 There are other aspects of ICE tactics beyond the use 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.080 of force. There's things like going into a Hyundai car 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.720 plant and rounding up loads of South Koreans from a 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.119 country which is investing hundreds of millions of dollars. 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:53.520 I mean, I don't defend the way these things are done. 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.760 And by the way the case you like the result 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.080 of it. That that's the complexity I'm interested. 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.880 Well, I don't like the fact that they shot to Pope, but. 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:02.760 You like the fact that overall these are the tax 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.879 sticks that have resulted in a massive decline in immigration. 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:13.280 The one thing that I do like is that these deportations, 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:19.440 which by the way, are still fewer than Obama per 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.560 year deported, and he didn't get any stick at tall. 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:27.240 These have just been very high profile. What I do 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.920 like is they're getting a lot of press, and therefore 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.760 it's basically sending out an advertisement to the rest of 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.359 the world that no, immigration to the United States is not, 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:43.359 after all a human right, and do not expect to 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.920 arrive in the US, especially by illegal means, or even 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.200 by overstaying your visa, and think that you can stay 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.639 there forever without our permission. So it's sending a signal 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.159 which is effective, it's working. 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:10.080 You were born in North Carolina. Yes, Why did you 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.040 leave the US as a young woman back in the 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:15.080 mid nineteen eighties. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.879 Yeah, that would have been about right. That's right. I 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.639 spent most of my adulthood outside of the country. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.520 Fourty years maybe fourty years away. Yeah, what was the cause? 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.119 I just had an appetite for adventure. The United States 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.760 seemed like a known quantity, which is probably ignorant on 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.520 my part. It wasn't, but I just wanted to find 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:41.199 out about other places, and I also was motivated to 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.960 learn about other places and set books in other places. 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:49.639 So initially I was thinking I would lead a very 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:54.240 parapatetic life and I would change countries every time I 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.080 wrote a new book. This was a tall order and 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:59.840 it was a complete misreading of my own character. Much 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:03.399 more of a homebody than that. And also even in 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:08.040 terms of international travel, I discovered that I was far 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.800 more interested in staying in one place for a long 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:17.800 time and really learning about it and knowing people, making friends. 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.640 I stayed in Belfast long enough to make enemies. That's 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.320 when you've really arrived Belfast. I did wonder about I 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.399 was in nine a dozen years, so Northern Ireland in 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:32.080 the nineteen eighties was in the midst of the troubles. Yes, 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:36.240 although you know it was a lot safer than people thought. 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.400 You know, it was not a brave choice. 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.080 But will you attracted to it because it seemed risky 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:45.320 a contrast to growing up as the daughter of a minister. 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:48.919 And I think it was the risk exactly that interested me. 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.080 But I had a story that I wanted to sit there. 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.480 I had a character that I wanted to use, who 0:21:54.520 --> 0:22:00.200 belonged in that context, but eventually I became engaged by 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:06.399 the politics. My twenties were not particularly political. I wanted 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.879 to be a novelist, but I was interested in stories 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.320 in language, and it was only when I arrived in 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:17.399 Belfast that I started getting much much more political. That 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:21.520 period of my life was a real PhD in conflict studies. 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:26.400 Because you have then often drawn on current themes for 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:29.719 your books. Right, we need to talk about Kevin, your 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.360 most famous book, there's a school shooting at the heart 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:36.240 of it. These were the years after the Columbine High 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:40.960 School massacre, so I can see that thread running through 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:45.520 your books. They're not divorced in any way from issues 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:49.440 and from current affairs, but the early influences in your 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:53.080 life that sitting in church listening to your father preach. 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.320 Does some of your skill with language come from that 0:22:57.520 --> 0:22:59.520 seeing how your father used words? 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.680 Yes? Probably. I mean I couldn't stand going to church 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:07.920 as a kid, and I rebelled against it, and I'm 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:12.240 still not a practicing Christian of any kind. However, my 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:16.000 father was a fine orator, and I think that helped me. 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:20.480 I also grew up in a household, where as you're 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:24.639 advice to do with children. They used their full, complex, 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:31.200 educated vocabulary. So I grew up learning fun, long words right, 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.600 and that was a huge favor to me. I've always 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:39.040 been grateful for having become very fluent in the English 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:42.439 language as a child. I've been crushed to discover that 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:45.639 this ability to learn English as a child does not 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:49.320 transfer to being able to learn any other language. It's 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:52.920 not the same skill. I've been so disappointed. 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:58.040 So you rebelled against church, you will say, rebelled against femininity. 0:23:58.040 --> 0:23:59.960 Would that be right? When you decided to change your 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:04.800 name two Lionel from Margaret. 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.320 Yeah, I think that was part of it. I was 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:10.640 not a girly girl. I grew up between two brothers, 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:15.240 and I've always been ambivalent about being female. I'm used 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:19.399 to it, but I don't know. If I had a 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:22.600 choice to start with, I'd probably choose to be male. 0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:25.800 That may be simplistic, you know, the men have their 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:32.639 own problems. The thrust of my approach to feminism as 0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:39.080 opposed to femininity is that I'm interested in minimizing the 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:42.800 importance of sex. I feel that I have more in 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:47.399 common with men than I have differences, and I like 0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:50.720 the company of men. I accept that there are differences 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:56.120 between the sexes, But when I was younger, the thrust 0:24:56.280 --> 0:25:02.600 of feminism was really more interested in erasing the hard 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:08.240 line between the sexes and recognizing our commonality. And I'm 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:09.119 still in that place. 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:11.679 It's interesting to hear you talk about that in the 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:16.320 knowledge that your next book is around transgender issues. 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:19.399 That's one of my biggest problems with the transgender movement 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:24.719 is the emphasis on the importance of sex and that 0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:29.359 being so determinative of identity, and I think that's a 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:33.879 false version of identity. I don't derive a lot of 0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:36.639 the meaning of my life and who I think I 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:39.840 am from my sex. It's just not that important to me. 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:41.600 It's one of the reasons that I haven't been a 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:45.359 big advocate for feminism. Not that I think there's anything 0:25:45.400 --> 0:25:47.840 wrong with it, but it's not what interests me. And 0:25:48.000 --> 0:25:50.600