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Speaker 1: At around two am on December twentieth, nineteen eighty seven,

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Speaker 1: three young men, Raphael James, Eddie Vieira, and Mark Smith

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Speaker 1: held up a Burger King in Brooklyn, where they blindfolded

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Speaker 1: and raped a female employee and forced a male employee

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Speaker 1: to participate. They left with three thousand dollars in cash.

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Speaker 1: Both survivors initially described three assailants. Two weeks later, on

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Speaker 1: January eighth, Raphael James and Mark Smith were on their

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Speaker 1: way to a party with Raphael's sixteen year old cousin,

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Speaker 1: Mark Denny, when the two men stopped the car outside

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Speaker 1: of another store that they intended to rob. Mark wanted

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Speaker 1: no part of it. While they argued, police pulled up,

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Speaker 1: searched the car and found a gun. James and Smith

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Speaker 1: were suspects in the December twentieth incident, and Mark Denny

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Speaker 1: became a suspect by association. Mark was bailed out of

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Speaker 1: jail that night and ignored his cousin's request to raise

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Speaker 1: bail buddy, so out of spite, Mark's cousin named him

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Speaker 1: as an assailant as well, even though the victims repeatedly

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Speaker 1: said that there were only three assailants and had identified

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Speaker 1: Bierra Smith and James. The detectives pressured the female victim

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Speaker 1: with a suggestive lineup to change the number of assailants

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Speaker 1: from three to four, and Mark Denny was ultimately convicted.

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Speaker 1: Years later, Raphael James recanted excluding Mark from the crime,

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Speaker 1: but it took an investigation by the Brooklyn cru to

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Speaker 1: reveal the corrupt identification process in which the female survivor

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Speaker 1: was revictimized. Mark Denny was finally freed exactly thirty years

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Speaker 1: from the date of the crime. This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. I'm your host, Jason Flahm,

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Speaker 1: and today I have a guest who's a really special guy,

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Speaker 1: and he's it's special to me because I had the

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Speaker 1: privilege of meeting I'm actually having lunch with him three

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Speaker 1: days after he was released from prison after thirty years

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Speaker 1: for a crime he didn't commit. So, without further ado,

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Speaker 1: let me welcome and introduce my friend Mark Denny. Mark,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Jason Slump for having me so. Mark.

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Speaker 1: This crime happened when you were just sixteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Sixteen right, and the crime itself is like something out

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Speaker 1: of a out of a horror movie. Before we get

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Speaker 1: into the whole situation and how you got wrapped up

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Speaker 1: in it, Mark tell us, what was your life like

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Speaker 1: growing up. Were you born and raised in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: I was born in Guyana, South America. I was there

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Speaker 3: all the way up until seventy years old. Then I

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Speaker 3: migrated to America. My childhood experience in Guyana was very

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Speaker 3: fun filled, and that's pretty much how I grew up.

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Speaker 3: My grandmother left to migrate to America. She made certain

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Speaker 3: things happen and I was able to be flowing in

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Speaker 3: and I was so happy again. My grandmother was like

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Speaker 3: my everything. When I first came to America, I was

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Speaker 3: living in flat resection of Brooklyn. I was living with

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Speaker 3: my grandmother and after a while, my cousin, Raphael, he

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Speaker 3: decided to come and live with her too, So it

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Speaker 3: was me and him living with my grandmother, just like

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Speaker 3: he wasn't Guyana.

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Speaker 1: And Raphael is a pivotal character in your story, and

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Speaker 1: it becomes clear later that he was into some really

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Speaker 1: bad stuff, dark stuff. But before all that, it seems

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Speaker 1: like you had a pretty happy and saved childhood. And

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Speaker 1: let's bear in mind as we listened to the story

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Speaker 1: that This was the nineteen eighties in Brooklyn, when both

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Speaker 1: crime and police misconduct were out of control, right, And

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Speaker 1: the crime in this case is even by the standards

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Speaker 1: of the day, it's just brutal, disgusting and really really sad.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about an incident that happened on December twentieth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, around two am. And what happened was

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Speaker 1: two masked men forced their way into a Burger King

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Speaker 1: that was about the close in Brooklyn, right, and two

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Speaker 1: employees were there, one male and one female, were closing

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Speaker 1: up the shop. These guys came in and they forced

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Speaker 1: the male employee to undress and forced him into a storeroom.

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Speaker 1: A third assailant entered the restaurant at some point. They

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Speaker 1: hid blindfolded and forced the eighteen year old female employee

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Speaker 1: to take her clothes off as well, and then all

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Speaker 1: three men raped her in.

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Speaker 2: The back room.

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Speaker 1: It's horrible. The male employee also told police that the

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Speaker 1: men forced him to sexually assault her as well. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry you have to hear this, but these are the

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Speaker 1: facts of the case. The three men fled with around

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Speaker 1: three thousand dollars in cash receipts from the restaurant safe.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even during this high crime era, this incident

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Speaker 1: stood out. And you find out later that your cousin,

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Speaker 1: Raphael James, along with his friends Mark Smith and Eddie Fierra,

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Speaker 1: that they actually did this to the girl at your

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Speaker 1: local Burger King, who was a girl that you happen

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Speaker 1: to have had a crush on. Right, But for the

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Speaker 1: time being, this incident is just more insanity in a

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Speaker 1: neighborhood that's grown accustomed to insane things happening. So about

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Speaker 1: two weeks passed by, it's January eighth, nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 1: Tell us what happened that night.

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Speaker 3: My cousin wanted to go to a certain party, but

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Speaker 3: he wanted to hold my aunt's car. She wouldn't let

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Speaker 3: him hold the car, so he kind of talked me

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Speaker 3: into doing it, under the impression that he'll.

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Speaker 2: Let me come with him.

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Speaker 3: So I went and borrowed my aunt's car, and they

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Speaker 3: directed me to where a party where it was supposed

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Speaker 3: to be in Manhattan. Then we got in front of

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Speaker 3: a store and it was me, my cousin and his friend,

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Speaker 3: and his friend wanted us to pull over and they

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Speaker 3: started talking about it's too early to go to a party.

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Speaker 3: They wanted to do a robbery real quick and automatically.

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Speaker 3: I became afraid for a lot of reasons, and the

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Speaker 3: main reasons was I was a kid, and I never

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Speaker 3: really did anything dangerous, you know, I was resistant. We

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Speaker 3: stood in the car arguing about it. But to make

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Speaker 3: a long story short, nothing happened. No one decided to

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Speaker 3: do anything because I was the I don't know how

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Speaker 3: long we was in front of the store, but I

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Speaker 3: guess the people in the store probably seen us, got

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Speaker 3: suspicious to call the cops. So the cops pulled up

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Speaker 3: and they was waiting to see what happened. And as

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Speaker 3: you was driving off, they pulled us over and I

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Speaker 3: was in the back seat. My cousin was in the

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Speaker 3: front seat with his friends, and out of nowhere, a

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Speaker 3: gun was tossed to me.

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Speaker 1: So, like you described, it was Raphael James driving and

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Speaker 1: Mark Smith in the front pastor seat. And they, of

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Speaker 1: course were suspects in the December twentieth robbery at rape

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn. You became a suspect as well, just because

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Speaker 1: you happened to be in the car with them, right,

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Speaker 1: But did you even know that they had been involved

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Speaker 1: in this insane crime?

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Speaker 2: No, I did not everything for me.

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Speaker 3: Became aware that this is what they do on a

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Speaker 3: regular because that's how they was trying to convince me

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Speaker 3: it's easy.

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Speaker 2: We did it before.

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Speaker 3: So the whole thing of what my cousin was actually

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Speaker 3: doing for a living, I became aware of all of

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Speaker 3: it at that very moment.

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Speaker 1: So he was some kind of stick up guy. This

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Speaker 1: was like a regular thing for him. But you were

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Speaker 1: just a kid who was in the wrong place at

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Speaker 1: the wrong time.

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Speaker 3: And we all got locked up that night as a

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Speaker 3: result of me being in the car with them. You know,

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Speaker 3: I got built out that night and he didn't. Him

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Speaker 3: and his friend Mark Smith stayed there, and Mark Smith

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Speaker 3: gave me a bunch of jewelry to bring home to

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Speaker 3: pawn for him to help make Bill money. And my cousin,

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Speaker 3: now Raphael James, he wanted me to go to my

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Speaker 3: grandmother house and get some kind of weedy ad stash.

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Speaker 2: And sell it it was supposed to be like a

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Speaker 2: pound and get him Bill money.

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Speaker 3: So now here I get bailed out with all this

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Speaker 3: jewelry and these duty to go do stuff for people

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Speaker 3: that just finished almost got me killed and got me

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Speaker 3: locked up and tricked me into going to a party

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Speaker 3: that they claim wasn't even no party, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I was pissed off, and this is the energy

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Speaker 2: I came out with.

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Speaker 3: So when I went back to my friends the next

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Speaker 3: day and I explained it to them, you know, they

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Speaker 3: was all on my side. It was all again the

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Speaker 3: more they almost got you locked up, you could have

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Speaker 3: been in jail. Now you got to the court. Now

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Speaker 3: you're gonna come out here and go sell drugs and

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Speaker 3: jewely for them. You know, it made me felt like,

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Speaker 3: you know, they just mailed me, felt like it wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have been the right thing to do.

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Speaker 1: And when you didn't do what your cousin and Mark

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Speaker 1: Smith had told you to do, and your cousin found

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Speaker 1: out about it, he was really pissed, and he eventually

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Speaker 1: made a statement sending investigators in your direction.

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Speaker 3: It stained him to such an extent that I guess

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Speaker 3: he always wanted to get me back, because in the

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Speaker 3: statement he said he just wanted to put me in

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Speaker 3: jail so I could see what he was going through.

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Speaker 3: And he was in there and I and he needed

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Speaker 3: my help. But I don't even see how. I don't even.

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Speaker 2: See the logic in that. I don't see that.

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Speaker 1: So while both victims had reported three assailants right three,

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Speaker 1: and the other three guys your cousin and his friends

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Speaker 1: Eddi Vier and Marks Smith had been identified from either

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Speaker 1: photographic or live lineups, that should have been the end

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Speaker 1: of it right there, right But with what your cousin

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Speaker 1: had told detectives, it didn't stop right there. This is

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Speaker 1: when the identification process got corrupted. It's now March of

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight. The detectives told the female victim who

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Speaker 1: had maintained that there were only three assailants, right three,

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Speaker 1: and she'd already identified the three, but she had been

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Speaker 1: through an unbelievably traumatic experience, and remember she was blindfolded

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Speaker 1: for most of it. So the detectives told her that

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Speaker 1: they had one of her attackers and that his name

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Speaker 1: was Mark Denny, and they put your picture in a

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Speaker 1: photo lineup, and she still didn't pick you. But two

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Speaker 1: days later, you're at your grandmother's house and these cops

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Speaker 1: come and take you back to the precinct where they

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Speaker 1: interrogate you and eventually puts you in a live lineup,

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Speaker 1: and she picks you the person remember whose picture she

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Speaker 1: saw but did not identify. Two days earlier, and now

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Speaker 1: the number of assailings goes from three to four. Now

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Speaker 1: you were the only person who appeared in both the

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Speaker 1: photo and live lineups. And we know that type of

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Speaker 1: suggestive technique plays psychological tricks on anybody, right If you

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Speaker 1: see the same person over and over again, your brain

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Speaker 1: will start to adjust, and people can be easily influenced

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Speaker 1: by this type of manipulation. And this is not just

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Speaker 1: me saying it. It's been proven over and over again

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Speaker 1: in countless studies. So her account was altered to make

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Speaker 1: room for four assailants. Yet the male employee only viewed

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Speaker 1: the live lineup, and of course he did not identify you,

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Speaker 1: and he was the one who was not blindfolded, and

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Speaker 1: he maintained that there were only three assailants. And of

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Speaker 1: course there was exactly zero physical evidence pointing to you

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Speaker 1: because you weren't freaking there, but the other three guys

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Speaker 1: had all left fingerprints and other evidence at the scene.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what the hell these detectives

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Speaker 1: thought they were doing, but it definitely wasn't in the

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Speaker 1: interest of justice, especially not to you, a sixteen year

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Speaker 1: old boy at the time.

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Speaker 2: You know, it took me to the prison.

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Speaker 3: They smacked me around, asking me questions over and over

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Speaker 3: and over that I really didn't have any answer to.

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Speaker 3: That was telling I really didn't know nothing, and they

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Speaker 3: smacked me around. They took me to a lineup room.

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Speaker 3: They put me in there and claimed I got picked out.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what to do or what to say

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Speaker 3: other than what I was already saying. I was really

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Speaker 3: like an empty vessel at that moment that was just

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Speaker 3: being done with whatever that authorready felt was appropriate to

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Speaker 3: try to resolve.

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Speaker 2: A nasty case, and that became a nightmare.

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Speaker 4: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company,

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Speaker 4: capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the

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Speaker 4: pro Bono Program, which provides free legal services and other

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Speaker 4: Accentric's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in

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Speaker 4: partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to

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Speaker 4: people and communities worldwide.

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Speaker 3: There was like five hundred thousand dollars something like that,

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Speaker 3: and then they finally took me to ryk As Island.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was scary because all the reputations in

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Speaker 3: the neighborhood, you know, it was about people going to

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Speaker 3: right a island and coming out. What I really want

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Speaker 3: to do is just tell anyone that would listen to

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Speaker 3: my story and get them to help me out.

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Speaker 2: But I had no increant of how.

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Speaker 3: Ugly and repulsed people are by the nature of sex

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Speaker 3: defense and yeil. So when I got there, the first

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Speaker 3: level of abuse was from the gods because when you

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Speaker 3: come in, they get your criminal records, so they know

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Speaker 3: what you're coming in for. That crime is esteem is

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Speaker 3: one of the most disgusting in prison sex defense period

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Speaker 3: by the civilians, by the criminals, even the dirt bags,

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Speaker 3: you know, So me having that title automatically it started

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Speaker 3: off for the abuse. You know, I started to intermingle.

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Speaker 3: I felt that if people understood my situation that they

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Speaker 3: would take my side and help me out. But they didn't.

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Speaker 3: You know, I just became a target. The gods beat

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Speaker 3: me down one day on my way back from the messoor.

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Speaker 3: They beat me down to a point where you couldn't

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Speaker 3: even recognize me friends that I had. They they didn't

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Speaker 3: even know it was me walking through the hallway because

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Speaker 3: my face was so battered.

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Speaker 1: Jesus, I don't know. I don't know how people can

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Speaker 1: behave this way. I mean, the Wrikers Dound is a

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Speaker 1: notorious place. It's no place for any human being, much

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Speaker 1: less a kid like you situation, and you certainly didn't

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Speaker 1: deserve any of this shit to happen to you. So

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Speaker 1: how long Mark were you held in Rikers before the trial?

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Speaker 3: I was a Rikazzan a belief for approximately one year.

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Speaker 1: So Eddie Viera and Mark Smith pled guilty and was

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Speaker 1: sent to prison. But you and your cousin Robhail James

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Speaker 1: went to trial together, and at that point you still

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Speaker 1: had no idea that he had made this statement naming

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Speaker 1: you as an assailant, a statement that, of course, he

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Speaker 1: later recanted. So who represented you, oh Man?

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Speaker 2: I had this lawyer named Harry Dusenberry. He was a

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Speaker 2: straight bozoe man. I mean, from the way he.

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Speaker 3: Dressed, his jacket sneezes midway between his wrists and his elbows,

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Speaker 3: his hair looking all crazy, his pants is how waters

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Speaker 3: he just looked like a like a joke.

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Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. Yess, I got of a movie or something,

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Speaker 1: so okay. So you're represented by this guy who can't

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Speaker 1: even find clothes that fit right much. Let's figure out

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Speaker 1: the law. And he was a public defender.

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Speaker 3: No, he was actually a paid attorney. Like I don't

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Speaker 3: know where my parents got this guy from. He didn't

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Speaker 3: really communicate with me at all, and the relationship was

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Speaker 3: not good. They came to a point where he was

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Speaker 3: charged my family seven thousand dollars. My grandmother had to

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Speaker 3: work give the money to my mother to give to him.

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Speaker 3: So he came to a point where when the payment

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Speaker 3: was supposed to be done, he was claiming that he

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Speaker 3: was still short two thousand dollars and if he didn't

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Speaker 3: get it, my case was going to fall apart.

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Speaker 1: Mark, did he visit you in prison? Did he prepare

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Speaker 1: for the case at all?

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Speaker 2: He never came to prison to visit me. I would

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Speaker 2: see him when I go to the courtroom, in the

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Speaker 2: back of the courtroom, in the holding pins.

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Speaker 1: So that trial, your grandmother was called to the stand

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Speaker 1: in your defense, and she testified that you were home

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Speaker 1: with her on the night of the crime. But no

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Speaker 1: one seemed to care about that, you know, it's so

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Speaker 1: easy for them to disparage her as being willing to

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Speaker 1: lie for her grandson. Then, of course, the female victim,

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Speaker 1: who had been pressured into changing her memory right of

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Speaker 1: three assailants, changed it to four. She was called to

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Speaker 1: identify you, but as we know, she was also blindfolded

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Speaker 1: throughout most of this incident and repeatedly stated that she

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Speaker 1: couldn't remember what happened. Meanwhile, the other victim in this

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Speaker 1: case maintained still that there were only three assailants and

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Speaker 1: did not identify you as one of those assailants. So,

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Speaker 1: for a fleeting moment, this kind of looked like it

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Speaker 1: might have gone your way, which would have been the

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Speaker 1: right way, of course. But then this statement from your

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Speaker 1: own cousin and co defendant, Raphael James, came to light

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Speaker 1: and sealed your faith.

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Speaker 3: My co defendant, Raphael James. They say that he made

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Speaker 3: a statement and he was quested, and in his statement

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Speaker 3: they asked him who was all there, and he said

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Speaker 3: Eddie Vieira, He said Mark Smid And he said and

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Speaker 3: my cousin, Mark. You know this is my cousin. This

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Speaker 3: is a blood relative. And we talked about something as

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Speaker 3: serious as a race. So I guess even though it

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Speaker 3: was all those ind that it wasn't me. I think

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Speaker 3: it's because of the ugly and nasty nature the case

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Speaker 3: that made a lot of people just become blinded to

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Speaker 3: the truth and act out in a manner of disregarded truth.

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Speaker 1: Now we know that he later recanted this statement and

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Speaker 1: excluded you from the crime, but at this point you

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Speaker 1: were basically doomed. I mean, it arguably all comes down

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Speaker 1: to him. Had he never told detectives that spiteful lie

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Speaker 1: to begin with, there would have never been any motivation

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Speaker 1: for them to obtain that corrupted ID or to basically

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Speaker 1: coerce the victims to change the number of assailants from

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Speaker 1: three to four. But of course that's not how this went.

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Speaker 3: I was really depressed at that whole thing. I was

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Speaker 3: just waiting for it to be oval, but I wasn't

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Speaker 3: really listening. When the victim pointed at me and actually

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Speaker 3: said that I raped it. That helped me, and it

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Speaker 3: was heartbreaking to me because seeing the victim for the

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Speaker 3: very first time up on the stand. The store that

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Speaker 3: the crime took place in a is a restaurant that

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Speaker 3: as a kid, me and my female cousins would go

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Speaker 3: in that store and play in the playground area.

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Speaker 2: So I saw the.

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Speaker 3: Person before, but I never said anything to the female

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Speaker 3: in my life. But one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: noticed was that she was very beautiful. She had a

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Speaker 3: very very bright aura to herself. And when I actually

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Speaker 3: seen her for the first time in that courtroom up

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Speaker 3: on that stand, that broke my heart because in my

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Speaker 3: head I was thinking to myself about my codefendant, Raphid

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Speaker 3: Jameson right next to me. I'm like, hold up, you

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Speaker 3: know that I know that girl. So they used to

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Speaker 3: tease me about being infatuated. Oh, I mean, I can't

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Speaker 3: really explain it that. It was like he just broke

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Speaker 3: up in me. I started crying because someone that in

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Speaker 3: my childhood timeline, who's past that I crossed, that I

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Speaker 3: was infatuated. It ended up being the very source that's

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Speaker 3: condemning me. And it's because of my cousin.

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Speaker 1: That is a lot man, that is heavy. Right. This

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Speaker 1: whole thing would be hard enough for anybody to process

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Speaker 1: or deal with without all of those other factors mixed in.

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Speaker 2: So there you are.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you had no shot of getting justice in

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Speaker 1: this scenario whatsoever. And the trial of course lasted only

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Speaker 1: two days, right, two days for man's life. So mark

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Speaker 1: the moment that the verdict was read. Do you even

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Speaker 1: remember what that was like?

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Speaker 2: No, man, I cried, I broke down.

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Speaker 3: I was trying to tell the judge for the very

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Speaker 3: last time I wasn't there. I told her that my

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Speaker 3: cousin lied on me. I learned everything about the case

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Speaker 3: and everything as I was going through the process. I

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Speaker 3: didn't even know he made a statement dragging me in,

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Speaker 3: and it devastated me. In no trouble because I had

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Speaker 3: to sit next to this person that throughout the whole

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Speaker 3: trial until that statement came out, he was acting on

378
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Speaker 3: nice and like he was concerned and telling me, don't worry,

379
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Speaker 3: I'm going to beat it and blah blah blah blah.

380
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Speaker 3: Never when the statement come out showing that he pulled

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Speaker 3: me into it, I couldn't believe that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that just adds another layer of horror to this

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Speaker 1: whole scenario. Okay, so you're convicted, you're taking away sentenced

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Speaker 1: to nineteen to fifty seven years in prison. These numbers

385
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Speaker 1: couldn't even have made any sense to you much longer

386
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Speaker 1: than you had been alive at this point in time, Right,

387
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 1: But we know that in these cases when you come

388
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Speaker 1: up for parole, if you don't admit guilt, the chance

389
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Speaker 1: of you getting out on a crime like this is

390
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,439
Speaker 1: virtually nothing. So it's really effectively a life sentence that

391
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 1: they gave you at this point in time. Right, So

392
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Speaker 1: what happens next? And how did you survive this entire ordeal?

393
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Speaker 1: Which prisons were you in, and how did you find

394
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Speaker 1: the strength to survive this impossible situation?

395
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Speaker 3: You know, I was in just about all the maxes

396
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Speaker 3: in New York State, And in spite of the harsh

397
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Speaker 3: criticism and stigma that I had to carry for all

398
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Speaker 3: those years, I will admit that there were prisons where

399
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Speaker 3: I actually was able to find peace.

400
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Speaker 2: There was prisoners, you know, who.

401
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 3: Had great influence, who was actually able to put the

402
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Speaker 3: brake on a line out of the fucked up shit

403
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,199
Speaker 3: I was going through in there because they gave me

404
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 3: the benefit of doubt. I met people that encouraged me

405
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Speaker 3: just based on hearing me speak. It was peaceful moments

406
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Speaker 3: where I was able to tap into my intellectual abilities.

407
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Speaker 2: I was able to get education.

408
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Speaker 3: I got my ged in there, I got my barber

409
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Speaker 3: certificate in there. Then I spent a lot of time

410
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Speaker 3: in solitary confinement where no one can get to me,

411
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,719
Speaker 3: and to sell by yourself. And I embraced those moments

412
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Speaker 3: where to another person, solitary confinement may be held. To me,

413
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Speaker 3: it was refused, it was solace, it was peace.

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Speaker 1: I've heard other people talk about that an aunt advice

415
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Speaker 1: who haven't been through it can imagine any of this.

416
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Speaker 1: But was there a lowest point while you were in

417
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Speaker 1: prison where you actually, you know, were under verge of

418
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Speaker 1: giving up hope?

419
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Speaker 3: And there came a point where I was about to

420
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Speaker 3: commit suicide. My mind went through all the things that

421
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Speaker 3: life has to offer. I actually ruled myself out of

422
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Speaker 3: the picture. What happened if I was no longer here, Yeah,

423
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Speaker 3: they would be a little bit emotions, there'll be a

424
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Speaker 3: little bit of this, they'll be a little bit of that.

425
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Speaker 3: But just like all the people I knew, after a while,

426
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Speaker 3: everything just passes on. So somehow I got it all

427
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Speaker 3: listen to my head and said that, you know, it's

428
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Speaker 3: a waste of time of me even hanging out because

429
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Speaker 3: it seemed like I cursed.

430
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Speaker 2: God out, I ripped the Bible up.

431
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Speaker 3: You know, I believe that it was no truth for

432
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Speaker 3: no one, because no one was accepting my truth.

433
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Speaker 2: It was only making things harder for me.

434
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Speaker 3: I never thought I was coming up because even though

435
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Speaker 3: I completed my minimum.

436
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Speaker 2: And I went to parole, they wanted to know the truth,

437
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 2: and my truth for them was alive.

438
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Speaker 5: So I was never getting out there and they're no better.

439
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 5: What good behaviors I didn't tell. Those good behaviors was

440
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 5: not getting me up. It was like situation, should I go?

441
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: So you appeal the conviction in nineteen ninety seven, but

442
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: it's denied. You filed a petition for a ridd of

443
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: Havius Corporate seeking a new trial, based in part on

444
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 1: a statement from Raphael James that you weren't involved in

445
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: the crime, but the petition is denied. Eventually, Eddie Vieira,

446
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 1: Mark Smith, and your cousin Raphael James, they're all released

447
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: on parole, but you aren't released because the state, the

448
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 1: Parole Board, as usual, they wanted to hear you admit

449
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 1: your guilt to this crime you didn't commit. They wanted

450
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 1: to hear you basically gravel and you wouldn't do it

451
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: because you didn't do the crime. So, okay, tell me

452
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: about how Nina Morrison and the Innocent Project got involved

453
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: in your case and what happened next.

454
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 3: So I would go to low Library and research and

455
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 3: I got a bunch of organizations that responded to claims

456
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 3: of innocent and.

457
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 2: I wrote all of them.

458
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 3: A couple of them wrote me back to me. I

459
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 3: was in another state. They really didn't have jurisdiction. It

460
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 3: was jurisdictional issues, and you know they not I believe

461
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 3: it was in two thousand and nine I got a

462
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 3: letter from the Innocent prodet of Needa Morrison telling me

463
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 3: that they're gonna help me. And I was in solitary

464
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 3: confinement when I got that letter.

465
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 2: That letter made me feel so good.

466
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 3: Because it just pointed out all the different reasons why

467
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 3: they believe I was in the right.

468
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 2: So I was able to take that letter as a

469
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: badge of.

470
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 3: Honor and show it to people in there security wise, n,

471
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 3: civilian wise, n and makewise that even if you don't

472
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 3: believe my own words, look there's people who actually believe.

473
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 3: You know, those letters from her and that whole turning

474
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 3: point right there was great to me.

475
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 2: But then it just took so long.

476
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 3: I didn't think I was gonna come out anyway, because

477
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 3: then she told me that they couldn't find a forensic evidence.

478
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,959
Speaker 3: That's what they was waiting for for years. And then

479
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 3: when they told me that they couldn't find it, it

480
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 3: was lost in some laboratory that was destroyed by Hurricane Sandy.

481
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 3: I was crushed. I just started going in about how

482
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 3: the facts was in the record is right there. What

483
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 3: the hell is they looking for? It's right there.

484
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: So Nina Morrison requests an investigation from the Brooklyn Conviction

485
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: Review Unit, which they carried out, and the cRIO concluded

486
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: that the identification process was well, it was just absolute nonsense, right.

487
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: It had serious problems, taking into account three months had

488
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: passed between the crime and the lineup, that after being

489
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: through a traumatic event like that blindfolded, that the victim

490
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: viewed the lineup after having seen your picture, which is

491
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: obviously really suggestive. I mean that could contaminate anybody's memory.

492
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: And of course all three of the actual culprits, your cousin,

493
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: Edi Vierira and Mark Smith all said that you had

494
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: nothing to do with it.

495
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 3: They put a lot of energy in and they came

496
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 3: back with evidence that was consistent with my claim, with

497
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 3: what my codafinder Raffle James claim at IVRM Mark Smith, both,

498
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: according to the investigation, gave up statements that was thorough

499
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 3: and exonerated me. Maybe one decided to just tell the

500
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 3: truth in the end, and so all these things put together,

501
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 3: but all the different errors that already existed paved the

502
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 3: way for me to be exonerated.

503
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: So that brings us to December twentieth, twenty seventeen, which

504
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: is exactly thirty years after the initial horrendous crime took place.

505
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: You're joined by Barry Scheck, Nina Morrison, and then also

506
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: the people leading the CiU at that time, which was

507
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: Mark Hale and Lisa Pearlman, and King's County District Attorney

508
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: Eric Gonzalez, who was sitting in the front row, said

509
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: that your wrongful conviction, and this is a direct quote,

510
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: happened because little was known back then about memory retention

511
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: and retrieval and their effect on Iwood's identification end quote.

512
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: The case was finally dismissed with the consent of prosecutors,

513
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: along with a conviction for possession of contraband that occurred

514
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: after you were incarcerated. So then there you were December twentieth,

515
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. You're finally freed. Can you tell me about

516
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: that day? Like, what the what the hell? How was

517
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: going through your mind?

518
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: Prior to me coming out? I had to go from

519
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 3: this prison to that prison, and interestingly, one of those

520
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 3: trips led me back to Right Azanad where it all started.

521
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 3: I thought occurred to me the day that I left

522
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 3: Right g a isand after I was convicted and depressed

523
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 3: and thought my life was over.

524
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: When I was.

525
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: Going over that bridge to leave Right azand to go

526
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 3: to Upstate facility, I said to myself as that bus

527
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 3: was going over bridge, I'm going to leave my spirit

528
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 3: right here and I don't know when, but someday I'll

529
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 3: be back for you, because I don't want you to

530
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 3: go with me. And the interesting thing is that on

531
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 3: the day that I was leaving to go to court

532
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 3: to come home, at that very moment, as the bus

533
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 3: was on the bridge, I remembered those same words, and

534
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 3: it was like it was just this suspended wait for me.

535
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 3: I just felt wholesome at that very moment that I

536
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 3: received what I left. I went to court, everybody was there.

537
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 3: You know, people are seeing the past, family members, you know,

538
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: loved ones. I was going through all kinds of motions.

539
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 3: I got up in front of court and I made

540
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: a statement, I wish I was the hero to save

541
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: that girl, because on that day, you know, she really

542
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: needed one.

543
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 2: But I wasn't there. I couldn't help out.

544
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 3: I am so afraid now about how easy a person

545
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: could lie, and the more ugly to lie is, the

546
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 3: more people tend to believe is the truth.

547
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 2: But sometimes I worry about.

548
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 3: The people in jail that didn't get a chance to

549
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 3: prove their innocence and dying because this whole new momentum

550
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: of criminal justice reform is just when in the history

551
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 3: hasn't been that way. So then for a whole lot

552
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 3: of injustice was always happening. People was going in there

553
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: and dying and not coming out.

554
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: Man.

555
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: I could have been one of those people.

556
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 6: Man.

557
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: So you know, it's scary how destructive a lie could be.

558
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 3: The truth is anything, man. I learned how to understand

559
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 3: that and respect that.

560
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: So you're released, but then you're immediately facing something else

561
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: you had been working for, its false citizenship, but you're

562
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: conviction to put all that in jeopardy.

563
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 3: Right before I got exonerated, I was scheduled to be deported.

564
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 3: My green card was revoked and it was up to

565
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 3: the parole Board to release me into the hands of Ice,

566
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 3: and from there was straight on a plane, straight back

567
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: to Guyana. But in the course of me regaining my

568
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 3: exoneration and ultimately being innocent, and so now I'm going

569
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 3: through the process of getting my naturalization, it's just a

570
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: matter of me maintaining focus, keeping a.

571
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: Good behavior, you know.

572
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 3: And I believe citizenship is important to that because it'll

573
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 3: put me in a better position to say and do

574
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 3: a lot and maybe even and to intodus that I

575
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 3: would otherwise not be able to.

576
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: Well, I think this country owes you a hell of

577
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: a lot more than just citizenship. And I'm so glad

578
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: that the Immigration Justice Clinic was able to prevent your deportation,

579
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: where Immigration and Customs Enforcement informed your lawyers that because

580
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: all your criminal convictions were overturned, they wouldn't attempt to

581
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: detain or deport you, and you were free to seek

582
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: citizenship and remain here with your family. And you also

583
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: have a book coming out soon, is that right?

584
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: The Book of School The Awakening Process, a self empowerment journey.

585
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: That's beautiful, Mark, And we'll put links to that, you know,

586
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: where you can purchase the book and all that stuff

587
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: in our bio. So now here we come to closing arguments,

588
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: which is my favorite part of the show, and I

589
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: just want to thank you Mark for coming here, getting

590
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: onto mic and sharing your story. And so how this

591
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: works is I'm going to turn my microphone off, but

592
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: I'm just going to kick back in my chair and

593
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: just listen. So whatever you feel is left to say,

594
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: the mic is yours.

595
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 6: You know, to have my inside experience, you know, looking

596
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 6: back at it now from hindsight and you know, taking

597
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 6: into account all the dysfunctions that's going on in the world,

598
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 6: it thrives and capitalizes and create you know, livable conditions

599
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 6: for other people to benefit from. So now the world

600
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 6: is at a point where they need that.

601
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: In order to benefit. I thought about this while I

602
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: was in prison.

603
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 3: No crime, no cops, no officers, no facility, all the

604
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 3: different contracts that's connected to that. It's tons and tons

605
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 3: of family that will become impoverished if they was to

606
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 3: remove the element of crime, so capitalizing off of it,

607
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: which is creating prisons. And don't get me wrong, I

608
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: learned that also prisons will structure. If a person want

609
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 3: to change, they can change for the better. But the

610
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: being of the justice system noted in these these things

611
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 3: in order to function properly.

612
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: I think it's an abuse.

613
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 3: Of that justice that the measure by which is treats

614
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 3: the people who are caught up in these systems is

615
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 3: it's cruel and unusual. They're giving out sentences that's impossible

616
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: for human It only lives up to seventy five years

617
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 3: to complete triple life two hundred years, three hundred years.

618
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: It shows that the value that people has been totally lost.

619
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 3: So justice needs to become more sensitive to that, because

620
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, if the justice system

621
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: is there to correct and fix people and put them

622
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 3: back in the position of function in a way that

623
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 3: they like, then.

624
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: They shouldn't be so terminal. They shouldn't be so extreme.

625
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: They shouldn't establish.

626
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: Means on which this goal of correction becomes impossible. Bad

627
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 3: is always going to be, but the extreme to which

628
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 3: bad is punished that Rake did is something that the

629
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: justice system needs to correct and the reason why I

630
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: believe ultimately they're fallen short because when it comes to

631
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 3: the truth, they are not embracing that truth and it

632
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 3: trickles all the way down to the criminals, you know.

633
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 3: So the issue is the truth. We have to learn

634
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 3: how to overall embrace the significance and the importance of truth,

635
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 3: because if we ultimately lose that man and the people

636
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 3: at the bottom is no different from the people at

637
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: the top. And if that's the case, then I don't

638
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 3: know what to say about that. Hopefully someone would hear,

639
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 3: Hopefully someone would be sensitive enough to acknowledge the truth

640
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 3: of these things and make the change it's necessary.

641
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: That's my hope.

642
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

643
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,

644
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music

645
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

646
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

647
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and

648
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

649
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms. You can also follow

650
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flapp.

651
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts

652
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one