WEBVTT - 5. Purgatory 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.000 Okay, So we have a woman who disappeared on September 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.720 two one, we have nine eleven, we have a frantic search. 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:14.280 Then what what do we know? In many ways, it's 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:18.240 easier to highlight what we don't know. Was snayha alone 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.120 when she was last seen alive in century twenty one 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:25.799 the department store? Or was she with another woman? Why 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:29.280 wasn't snak caught on camera anywhere other than the women's 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.879 coat area, especially the shoe area where she made her 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:38.559 final purchase. Where did Snah go after century? Did she 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.280 really tell Sonya Mora, the shoe saleswoman, that she was 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:46.320 going to Victoria's Secret and Jones, New York. Did Snah 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.680 speak with either or both of her brothers the day 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:54.200 she disappeared, If so, what did she say? Did ron 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.680 Liebermann's husband sleep dial his cell phone from his landline 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.360 at four oh five m on nine eleven? Does that 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:07.160 explain the otherwise unexplainable call made from inside the apartment 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.160 It is the woman who exited snay Has building at 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.720 three am on nine eleven. Actually, snay Haa did say 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.399 attend a party on September ten at a hotel next 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:20.800 to the Twin towers. Did she go shopping on nine 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.800 eleven in the mall underneath the day she visit Windows 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:25.920 on the World on top of the North Tower. Was 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.240 she just walking home when the attacks began, or none 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:34.800 of the above? We don't know. Most of all, where 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.360 did snay Has stay the night of the tenth? And 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.480 as if this wasn't enough, let me throw a few 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.240 new questions at you. First, how did snay House family 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.960 know that she dropped off dry cleaning one after she 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.120 left her apartment but before she got to Century One? 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.120 Maybe credit card records, But wouldn't she have paid when 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.120 she picked up her clothes, not when she dropped them off. 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.720 So did her family interview someone at the dry cleaners? 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.240 And if so, what did that person say about snay 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.480 Has state of mind? What's she with someone? Then? What 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:14.600 she caught on security footage there we don't know. Finally, 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.320 in the Century one footage, say, does not appear to 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.400 be wet, nor is she carrying an umbrella, even though 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:25.440 it was storming outside. So did she walk to Century 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.800 maybe during a pause in the rain. Did someone drop 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.160 her off or did she take a cab? We don't 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.680 know what happened to snay Ha And if the explanation 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:40.480 really is so simple, why are there so many discrepancies 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:45.079 and unanswered questions. I don't know, we don't know. No 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:49.920 one knows, not the NYPD, not private investigators, not us, 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:58.560 not yet for my Heart media, this is missing. On 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.040 nine eleven, the story were you of one woman who 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.840 vanished on the eve of history and my quest to 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:36.720 find her? I'm your host, John Wallzac. On October one, 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:42.279 NYPD Detective Richard Stark ends his investigation into snay house disappearance. 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:47.000 There's nothing left to do, he says. Snayhouse family vehemently 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:51.680 disagrees their private investigator can go on continues to hunt 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:56.800 for clues. He finds few, if any. By coincidence, the 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.600 same day Detective Stark ends his investigation, snay Haa was 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.480 supposed to be in court facing charges of harassment, assault, 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.960 and falsely reporting an incident, but because no one knows 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.800 where she is, her case is adjourned again. Two thousand 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:18.920 one ends. Then on January two thousand two, a judge 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.400 issues a bench warrant for snay Has arrest. She's not 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.280 showing up to court. She's a wall and since there's 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:29.159 no official declaration of death, he has no choice, he says. 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:33.440 One month later, the Associated Press runs a short article 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:38.120 about snay haa quote. Police theorized she orchestrated her own 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.440 disappearance to escape personal problems, but her family says this 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:48.200 doesn't make sense. Snay was accomplished, graceful, and stable, they say. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.080 Ron says, quote, we had a great marriage. We were 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:56.400 talking about having babies. D NYPD, however, says that snay 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:01.400 House disappearance is unrelated to the World Trade Center. By 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.839 August two thousand two, the initial list of thousands of 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.760 people missing on nine eleven has been whittled down to 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:12.280 just nine. Some victims were reported missing multiple times by 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.760 different people, a genuine mistake. Then there were cases of fraud, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.560 but also, amazingly, at least seven people initially thought to 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:25.279 have died on nine eleven are found alive. According to 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:27.960 The New York Post, one is a homeless man named 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.360 Albert Vaughan, last scene in the subway station beneath the 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.960 World Trade Center in June two thousand two, nine months 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:40.320 after the attacks. His family finds him in a psychiatric hospital. Another, 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.360 George Simms, was thought to have been working as an 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:47.000 informal street vendor, near the Trade Center on nine eleven. 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:51.680 Like Vaughan Simms, it's found in a psychiatric hospital, diagnosed 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:57.840 with amnesia and schizophrenia. On September eleven, two thousand two, 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.240 the one year anniversary of the attacks, snay House family 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.200 holds a small memorial service in Poughkeepsie, New York. Publicly, 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:09.560 they've given up any hope that Snah will be found alive. Privately, 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:14.200 though some of them still do not believe that she's dead. Nonetheless, 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.239 they bury and earned with unidentified ashes collected from ground zero. 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.960 One month later, snay House husband Ron files a claim 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:26.240 with the nine eleven Victims Compensation Fund worth three to 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:30.200 four million dollars, but because has not an official nine 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:35.120 eleven victim, because there's no death certificate, it's denied. By 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.440 this point, snay House family is starting to get ticked off. Publicly, 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.200 they've settled on the hero narrative that Snah ran into 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.680 the burning towers to help people and died as a result. 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:51.279 They say they're not motivated by money. Instead, they're motivated 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:55.720 by legacy. They want recognition for snay house bravery or 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.919 and there's no way to say this nicely, her theoretical 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:03.119 bravery Still, the City of New York declines to issue 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.599 a death certificate stating that Snayhu died on nine eleven 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:36.600 at the World Trade Center. On September two thousand three, 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.960 Ron files a petition seeking a judicial declaration of death. 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:45.080 Two months later, a lawyer named Ellen Winner is appointed 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:49.320 as snay House Guardian ad litem. Basically, it's Ellen's role 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.920 to fight for Snah on her behalf, to serve as 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:57.360 her advocate and absentia. In turn, snay House family hires 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.880 a lawyer named Mark Bogutin by Ron Lieberman, and he 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.480 was this fiving spouse bringing this proceeding in servius court. 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.080 And that's what I did. I filed the petition in 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.560 Sagret's court to for the judicial declaration of death. We 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.600 interviewed Bogutin at his Manhattan office, about twelve hundred feet 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:21.080 northeast of the World Trade Center on January five, the 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.360 day before the Capitol riot in d C. We sat 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.440 in a conference room, faces covered because well COVID, it 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:32.079 was gray and drizzly. Looking out the window, we could 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.840 see Bogutin's old office, the one he had on nine eleven, 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.800 only two blocks away near City Hall. That's where he 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.240 was headed on nine eleven when the attacks began. It 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.520 just got out of the subway Chambers and West Broadway 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.480 and started to walk and I hear above me a 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:51.840 plane or see a plane. Look at the plane and 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.680 it's going right into the trade center. Boom floats, and 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.040 I said, my god, it's it's awful. And all those 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.920 people not awful. Then also people other stuff, and so 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:03.319 I was a block away now I just moved the 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:07.120 blockler still looking, and then I saw this explosion in 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.280 the tower where I saw this big explosion of the 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.559 flames coming out, and I thought it was maybe a bomb, 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.480 or maybe it was something like eight attack mortar attacks. 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.600 I didn't actually see the second plane, but you know, 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:20.040 once I saw that, everybody once any everybody, so that 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.200 everybody knew then it was terrorism. Obviously. Bocatin made his 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.200 way into his office, which had a partial view of 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.760 the Trade Center. All of a sudden, everyone's running, people 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.559 would standing watching was running, running, running and knowing something happened. 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.439 I happened, and then I heard we heard on the 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.040 TV that the first one fell down, and so then 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:40.440 I looked at my window second and was still there, 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.000 and I left then the whole area was closed like 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:48.959 a week or so. But I remember that, remember calling 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.400 the court and they say, oh, yeah, we know, we 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:57.240 know what happened. No, there's no court today, there's no 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.240 court today. A few years later, Polcatin got a call 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:05.000 from his friend Mark Freiberg, a fellow attorney. Mark Freiberg 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:10.319 had represented Snea and Philip before she disappeared. So basically, 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:12.839 Mark Friberry came to me and talking about the case. 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.160 He said that Nia and Philip had lived across the 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.599 street from the Trade Center, and he first told me, 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:19.400 you know, she went missing on Stember eleven. They said, 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:21.760 actually she went missing on September tenth, or was last 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.079 sing on the tenth, which made the case obviously a 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:28.840 little bit different. And m Mark Fribery had representing and Philip. 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.200 She had a very small criminal case pending in the 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.679 New York City Criminal Court and he represented her and 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:37.760 that and that was pending on nine eleven, and then 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.760 you know, she didn't she disappeared at nine eleven. And 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:46.920 so what happened was initially, when whatever agency was putting 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.280 together the list of the dead people died at the 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:53.400 Trade Center, Nia and Philip's name was originally included on 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.440 the list prepared by the government of those who died, 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:01.040 not missing, but died at the trade Center. At the 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:05.319 very beginning, snay How was listed as the nine eleven victim. 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:10.200 After nine eleven, some public agency brought proceeding on behalf 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.920 of everybody on the list, the two thousand, seven hundred 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.400 people who are on the list and there are no 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:17.679 body recovered. There was a proceeding brought in servius who 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.240 are to have them judicially they are dead, and death 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.360 certificates ordered issued by the services for those twenty seven people. 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.320 And again with the Matthew RECEDINGSNA was included in that 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.040 as a results of that proceeding in the fact show 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.640 that everybody would be entitled to decertificate that they died 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.839 at the trade center except for two people, and one 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.760 of the two was and Philip, And there were two 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:45.600 cases of the surrogates. Representatives said it's not it's not fraud, 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.520 but we just need more evidence and we need more 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:53.280 information before we feel comfortable issuing the death certificate. And 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.439 again THEA was one of these two cases, and the 0:11:55.480 --> 0:12:01.440 other one Juan la Fuente. Another strange ace, strange enough 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.600 that it's worth going into a bit of detail. Wan 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.840 the front A was last seen alive around six am 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.600 on nine eleven, on his way to a train station 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.920 in Pokeepsie, New York, where he lived with his wife, Colette. 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.760 At the time, Collette was the mayor of Poughkeepsie. Juan 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.160 worked for City Bank at one eleven Wall Street in Manhattan. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.559 On nine eleven, he made it to Grand Central station, 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.800 where he swiped his metro card at eight oh six am. Then, 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.479 presumably he caught a subway to Wall Street and Broadway, 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.400 eleven hundred feet southeast of the World Trade Center. Per 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:42.560 court records, that trip typically took about sixteen minutes. Wan 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.959 likely exited onto the street around eight thirty am, only 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:52.319 sixteen minutes before American Airlines flight eleven the North Tower. However, 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.960 like snay Ha, Land did not work at the Trade Center, 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.520 he had no real reason to be there. In fact, 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.640 Bickly after exiting onto the street, he would have walked 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.439 the other way to his Wall Street office. So in 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.240 order to say that he died on nine eleven at 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.040 the Trade Center during the attacks, his family, like snay 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.000 House family, had to answer why he was there in 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:21.520 the first place. At first, they two chose the hero narrative. 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.040 They said that One probably saw the attacks and ran 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.079 into the towers to help people. As evidence, they cited 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.960 the fact that he was a volunteer fire marshal. Later, though, 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.240 a witness came forward and claimed that two or three 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.080 days before nine eleven, he overheard One say that he 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:45.080 planned to attend a meeting at the Trade Center. Okay, 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:49.840 but which meeting best guests the Risk Waters Financial Technology 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.440 Congress at Windows on the World on top of the 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:56.320 North Tower on the morning of nine eleven. However, as 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.040 with Snah, there's no proof that One was at the 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:03.840 Trade Center, no evidence, just speculation as to the critical 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.680 question of why he would have attended the conference why 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.920 he died. His family ditched the hero narrative and instead 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:16.280 cited frugality. They posited that he wanted free food. Wan 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.360 was so frugal, according to The New York Times that 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.400 quote he scavenged his morning paper from a dumpster. His 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.560 frugality is why he died. According to his family, His 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:32.840 wife Colette said, quote, it was a free breakfast. Now 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:37.000 with the Flente, The cops did consider non nine eleven 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:44.120 explanations for one suicide. One was undergoing psychiatric treatment for depression. Coincidentally, 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.440 on nine eleven, he had an eight pm appointment with 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:52.640 a psychiatrist, which obviously he missed. They also considered whether 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.760 or not he ran off. Wan and Colette had an 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.920 interesting marriage. According to The Times, once a month, Wants 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.880 stayed away from home overnight in Manhattan in a quote 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:08.360 shabby genteel tourist hotel. As to what one did at 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.760 the hotel, a manager said, quote, we don't ask those questions. 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.400 In addition, Juan's daughter, who said she had a good 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.280 relationship with him, could not remember whether or not he 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:25.480 called her on her birthday September, so, exercising caution, Pickepsie 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:30.080 Detective Walter Horton considered everything. He told The Times quote, 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.520 I don't want to find out six months from now 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.440 that he's living in the Bahamas. But in the end 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.840 a judge ruled that nine eleven was the answer, writing quote. 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:44.480 The absentee was described in polite terms by his wife 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.520 and Detective Horton as a frugal person. He would often 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:53.040 take advantage of trade shows offering free refreshments, such as 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:57.280 the one sponsored by Risk Waters. The morning of September eleven, 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:02.720 it is tragically ironic that the absentees zest for thriftiness 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.480 was the underlying factor which may have contributed in large 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:12.880 part to his unexpected demise. Under the totality of the circumstances, 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:18.120 there is no reasonable explanation for his disappearance other than 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:22.359 death by an act of terrorism. Therefore, the court determines 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:28.560 that Juan M. La Fuente died September eleven, two thousand one, 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:34.040 and with that family, unlike snay Haas family, got a 0:16:34.120 --> 0:17:03.000 death certificate quickly. Mark Bogatin, the attorney hired by snay 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:07.359 House husband Ron, later referenced the Plante case multiple times 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.920 in court, arguing that in snay House case, like the 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:15.840 Puante case, nine eleven was the obvious answer, just common sense. 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.399 I mean, even without court being involved. It's submasing to me. 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.240 And I was talking to somebody in the bar and 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.080 they gave me the effects. It's just obviously that what else, 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.440 what else could have happened? She died at the trade center. 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.560 Why would you even consider anything else. It's like I said, 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.199 you can't stay present. There's no alien induction here. But 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.600 I'm pretty confident, you know, as a rationally human being, 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.360 it's highly unlikely there was an alien induction, and it's 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.800 more than highly unlikely there was some voul play. So 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:41.919 other than I was the foul play involved in what 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.919 al Qaida did. This is not what snay House family 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.199 originally thought in the beginning. They wanted the NYPD to 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:54.440 investigate everything, suicide, murder, everything, But by the time Mark 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.920 Bogatin enters the picture late two thousand three early two 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:02.160 thousand four, both snay House family and the NYPD, despite 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.120 previous clashes, agreed that sna Ha did die on nine 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:10.560 eleven at the Trade Center. Now though someone else is 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.840 on the case, Ellen Winner, the Guardian ad vit um, 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:18.800 the attorney appointed to represent sna in absentia, and basically 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.760 she says, not so fast. She was appointed by the 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.600 court to be represents. Nia's interesting, but she is. She 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.719 investated the facts like I investated the facts, and basically 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:33.119 her reports said, well, there's evidence that Nia led a 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.119 dangerous lifestyle, that she went to bars and lesbian bars 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.840 or bisexual bars, or I forget how they characterize it. 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.280 I think they're called bars fremented by women, I think 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.600 is what one of the reports referred to them as. 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.520 And then she may have been unfaithful and she may 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:53.000 have you know whatever. So she pointed to this dangerous 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.280 in her mind, dangerous life stuff as an alternative explanation 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.800 for Snia's disappearance. So basically the theory that oh, very 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.280 possible she ran went into the bar, had the unfortunate 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.600 circumstance of striking up an acquaintance with a person who 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:09.920 turned out to be a crazed killer, and that's how 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:14.000 she met her demise, demise to use the stupid term 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.440 um demise, and that's the exclamations. So since she made 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:20.560 since she had this dangerous lifestyle, went to bars and 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.160 may have been lesbian, Well she didn't say she died 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.639 because she was lesbian, but she did say because she 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:31.080 frequented bars uh and may have been unfaithful and struck 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:35.040 up acquaintances with strangers at these bars, that somehow, yeah, 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:36.960 she had a dangerous lifestyle, so we can't say with 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.760 any confidence, can't rule out foul play. And that was 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:44.160 her take on it, and that actually was the conclusion 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.399 reached by the surrogate, who was the judge, and the 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.840 final decision on the surrogate was because that there was 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.240 this dangerous lifestyle and she went to these bars and 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.960 stuff and all these you know, these things in her background. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.159 Can't say that you can't rule out foul play and 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.199 she that she had my mind, that's just that's crazy 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:07.840 because for the reason I've already said, just crazy and 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.080 my p D thought it was crazy. Uh, prior to 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.520 the tactles it was crazy. And if you could go 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.760 and say she she was killed by a crazy killer, 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.400 you know, there has to be some evidence of that something. 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.760 So the crriot court rules, yes, she's dead, she's she's gone. 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.800 I think they set her day to death as three 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.919 years after her disappearance. Maybe she didn't die at the 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:33.400 Trade Center. And that was very upsetting experience. Well when 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.120 originally when her initially when her name was removed from 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.680 the list of people died at Trade Center, that was 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.600 very very upsetting to the family. By the family, I 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.400 mean her mother and father, I mean I mean Ron 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.880 was not happy either. I uh met the parents later 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:50.920 in the representation and the first time I met them, 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.600 I said the mother and she said to me Steia 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:58.320 was an American hero and meaning that she's one of 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:00.840 the people died at the Trade Center. And it was 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.840 the first time that it really really appreciated obviously from 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:07.000 the beginning, understood what the death of what's child would 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:11.520 mean does mean. Obviously appreciated that, but I didn't appreciate 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.040 how the fact that she had died at the Trade 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.720 Center and was included in this group of Americans who 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.639 had basically been killed because they were Americans. That fact 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.520 that circumstance gave her some solace and sort of eased 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.040 the pain. And so her death was not with that 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:33.879 certificance was part of a larger national tragedy. But she 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:36.959 said she was an American heroine. Also, I guess she 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.439 also believed that she would have been going to help 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.399 as a physician Sona's death, that that her death was 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.080 part of this larger national tragedy and this larger historical 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.560 significance even apart from her being as a physician going 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:52.600 to help people. Uh, it gave them some comfort and 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:54.920 some solace, and that was all taken away from them 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:57.600 when they ruled out, she's not she's not, she's not 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.000 on the list. And then obviously were very disappointed when 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.520 the trial judge ruled, oh, she died but not at 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.040 the Trade Center. And at that point we took an appeal. 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:08.800 We went to the Pelt Court. What did you think 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.440 when you got the decision? Wasn't surprised, I gas, I 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:15.320 thought it was ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. You know, as 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:17.440 an attorney, you know you win cases, your loose cases, 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:20.920 and and actually the first bless they had, the only 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.879 bless they had. You said, of the cases that you 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:28.000 guys an attorney or trial attorney, lawyering doesn't make a difference. 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:32.159 You could have Perry Mason, Mason you're gonna have, you know, 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:34.919 you have Johnny Conquer, definitely Bailey, or you're gonna have 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.520 the guy who got out law school you know yesterday, 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.240 not either. The cases doesn't matter. The cases are based 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:42.360 on the facts. The facts beek for themselves. The case 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:44.720 decides itself, you know, and then there's a temperate five temper. 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:46.840 Any cases where lawyering does make a difference, where could 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:50.400 go either way. And this was one of those cases, 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:54.760 a complicated case, a legacy case. We had one or 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:58.560 two conferences with the courts clerk before we actuid the hearing. 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:03.840 They were very, very doubtful of our case. I just 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:06.240 I was just surprised, I thought, to me, as a 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.800 not even being an attorney, just as a common as 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:13.560 a person walking around with I guess as a sentient. 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.080 That's the right pronunciation, as senting a human being. What 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:19.399 else you think one of the conclusion could you reach? 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:22.680 I guess the only the big question which everybody had 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:25.160 and that I would ask you is obviously, she says, 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:27.280 somewhere the night of the tenth. So it would have 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:30.240 been either with somebody she knew or with a stranger. 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:34.000 She would stay somewhere Ranticly, she could have walked up 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:37.320 the street all night. Possible, It's one of those. Yeah, 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:38.719 she could have been with a stranger, could have been 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.800 somebody she knew. She could have been walking literally walking 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:44.120 up I mean I remember was in college ones. Actually 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:47.600 I actually did that. I actually left the dorm at 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:49.440 eight at night. I didn't come back to like five 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:51.639 in the morning. She could have been doing that, walking around. 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:54.199 But more probably she would have been with somebody. If 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:56.400 if she was with somebody she knew, though, why would 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:59.880 they not come forward? Obviously she wasn't with somebody she knew. Well, 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:04.680 she wasn't with somebody that their family knew about. Okay, 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:08.240 they know that she was her last um, last trace 0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:10.199 of her was a purchase he made a century one 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:12.800 because it's a credit card or whatever store receipt. I 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:15.600 think was like eight o'clock to night, eating something like that. 0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:18.119 That's the last actual trace, so they know she was 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:21.720 attentual twenty one sometime that evening of the tenth. Uh 0:24:21.960 --> 0:24:25.439 where she was in between there and the morning of 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:31.480 the eleven that, you're right, that's not it's not precisely 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:36.240 known or determined. Okay, just getting using logic. Could she 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:40.720 have been with somebody she knew, Uh, that's possible. But 0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:42.760 like you just said, while it was somebody she do, 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:45.560 why did that person go forward? Okay? Could she have 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:48.359 been with somebody she didn't know, that's possible. Could she 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:50.840 have been with nobody like I, like I referred to 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:54.240 my experience one night in college walking that's possible. I 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:57.679 don't know, you know who knows? It's possible. She may 0:24:57.720 --> 0:24:59.919 have been walking around the street with a heavy shopping 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:08.080 though I don't know. I forget how I mean, I 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:10.560 forget the size or weight of the purchase. Okay, you're right. 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:13.280 Maybe she wasn't walking the streets a bit. She probably 0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:21.480 spending on the you're right, h so many questions, so 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:27.280 many unanswered questions. So much we don't know. But that's okay, 0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:32.080 because sometimes the best clues are in the questions, in 0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:35.840 what people hide, what they lie about, in what we 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:40.840 don't know. Next time, on Missing on nine eleven, I 0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:44.359 just remember her confiding in me about not being happy 0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:48.439 in her current position, feeling pressured, whether there was pressure 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:50.800