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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George Norry

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Speaker 1: with you. Let me tell you about our special guest.

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Speaker 1: Donna Anderson is the creator of love Fraud dot com.

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Speaker 1: That's a website that teaches people to recognize and recover

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Speaker 1: from sociopaths. She learned about sociopaths the hard way she

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Speaker 1: married one. Donna is the author of a number of books,

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Speaker 1: the most recent on senior sociopaths. Co author of two

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Speaker 1: scientific studies, she founded Love Fraud Education, which offers webinars

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Speaker 1: for survivors and professionals, and has shared her expertise on

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Speaker 1: numerous television, radio and online programs. This is our first

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Speaker 1: time on Coast to Coast. Donna, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Looking forward to this. Oh me too. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much George for inviting me. I'm going to ask you

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Speaker 1: for definitions here for people who are going all right,

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Speaker 1: I need to know the difference between this. So, first

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Speaker 1: of all, what is a sociopath? Okay, Well, a sociopath

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Speaker 1: is somebody who has a serious personality disorder in which

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Speaker 1: they manipulate and take advantage of others they're exploiters. Now, actually,

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Speaker 1: I'm not so sure that regular folks like you and

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Speaker 1: me actually need to precisely understand the differences among all

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Speaker 1: these disorders, because they overlap a lot, and what they

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Speaker 1: have in common is that people who have the personality

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Speaker 1: disorders are socially sick. Now, I use the word sociopath

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Speaker 1: as an umbrella term for what the American Psychiatric Association

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Speaker 1: caused cluster B personality disorders, which are antisocial, narcissistic, borderline

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Speaker 1: and histrionic personality disorders plus psychopathy. Sociopath currently is no

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Speaker 1: longer an official diagnosis, but I use the word the

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Speaker 1: way it was originally intended when it was coined back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty as meaning anything that is deviated or

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Speaker 1: pathological and social relations. So essentially, all of these folks

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Speaker 1: are bad for the people who get targeted, and in

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Speaker 1: my personal opinion, it's not really necessary to be able

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Speaker 1: to parse one from the other. If somebody is taking

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Speaker 1: advantage of you, is lying to you, is manipulating you,

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Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of other warning signs, then the

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Speaker 1: person probably has one of these disorders and they're probably

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Speaker 1: bad news. I took your quiz on loovefraud dot com

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Speaker 1: and I might be a target for the sociopath, they say.

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Speaker 1: The end result of the quiz said, you could be

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Speaker 1: a target, watch out for the people you're with. Saw

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Speaker 1: Have you explained to me what that could mean as well?

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Speaker 1: But what it means is that anybody can be a target.

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Speaker 1: It's just a matter of how big a target. Uh huh.

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Speaker 1: You know, because what sociopaths do is they they're always

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Speaker 1: on the lookout for somebody that they can use their opportunists.

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Speaker 1: So if a sociopath meets you, first of all, they

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Speaker 1: evaluate you to see if you have something that they want.

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Speaker 1: Then they figure out what your vulnerabilities are, and then

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Speaker 1: they use your vulnerabilities to get you to give them

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Speaker 1: what they want. Now, the problem, of course, is that

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Speaker 1: we all have vulnerabilities. If you want something, that's a vulnerability.

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Speaker 1: So anybody can be targeted by a sociopath. Isn't marketing sociopathic? Well?

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Speaker 1: I suppose you could look at it that way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you look at you look at what somebody needs, what

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Speaker 1: they want, and what you want, and you go after them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is true. But I suppose the difference is that

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Speaker 1: if you're looking at an ad, you know it's an advertisement,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully you're using your discretion on whether or not

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Speaker 1: you're going to buy that product. Does the sociopath donta

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Speaker 1: know what they are? Sometimes I've definitely heard of people

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Speaker 1: who have acknowledged that they're sociopaths. I've had folks get

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Speaker 1: in contact with me and say that they are disordered,

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Speaker 1: say that they're a sociopaths, and quite frankly, often they're

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Speaker 1: proud of it. I mean, this is the difference, or

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Speaker 1: one of the differences, between a sociopathic personality disorder and

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Speaker 1: a typical mental illness, because a personality disorder goes very

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Speaker 1: very deep, and what it means is that this person

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Speaker 1: most likely has always been this way. Folks usually start

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Speaker 1: to see signs of personality disturbances when the people are

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Speaker 1: in their early teenage years or certainly by the time

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Speaker 1: they're twenty, so they've always been that way. Whereas someone

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Speaker 1: who may have anxiety or depression most likely understands what

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Speaker 1: it's like to feel good and feel healthy and they

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Speaker 1: don't want to be that way. So sociopath quite often

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Speaker 1: has been diagnosed if somebody has dragged them into a

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Speaker 1: therapist or if they've been arrested. Often they're proud of themselves.

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Speaker 1: I've actually had sociopath tell me that their evolution's next step.

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Speaker 1: They're interesting. Now, are sociopaths born or created? It's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of both. The condition is highly genetic, especially

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Speaker 1: with antisocial personality disorder and psychopathy, because those are the

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Speaker 1: ones that have been the most studied, and so it's

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Speaker 1: about fifty percent genetic. And what that means is that

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Speaker 1: if someone is born with a predisposition to disorder, then

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Speaker 1: there is an interaction between nature and nurture. So then

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Speaker 1: it depends on the type of upbringing they get or

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Speaker 1: the environment that they grew up in, and whether or

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Speaker 1: not they actually do become disordered. Now, the problem, of course,

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Speaker 1: is that if someone is born with a predisposition, it

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Speaker 1: typically means that one of their parents is disordered, or

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Speaker 1: there could be disorder back further on the family tree,

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Speaker 1: but often it's one of the parents. Well, sociopaths make

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Speaker 1: terrible parents, so unfortunately they engage in the type of

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Speaker 1: parenting that will allow their you know, little kid to

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Speaker 1: become a mini me, become another sociopath. What is a psychopath?

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Speaker 1: A psychopath is very similar to someone with antisocial personality disorder.

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Speaker 1: In fact, you know, there's a lot of disagreement in

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Speaker 1: the mental health field, so it's some people describe it

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Speaker 1: as an enhanced version of antisocial personality disorder, but essentially

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Speaker 1: it depends on who you ask. Because most of the

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Speaker 1: university researchers use the term psychopath in their research, and

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Speaker 1: this is because there was an instrument that is developed

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Speaker 1: called the Psychopathy Checklist Revised, which is how they evaluate

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Speaker 1: someone's level of disorder, and that instrument has been validated

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Speaker 1: hundreds of times to be pretty accurate and determine determining

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Speaker 1: someone the level of disorder. So that's what all the

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Speaker 1: university researchers use. And then all the therapists and the

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Speaker 1: clinicians use antisocial personality disorder because that's the term that

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Speaker 1: is required by the DSM five, which is the Diagnostic

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Speaker 1: and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, and they

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Speaker 1: have to use terminology or a diagnosis from that book

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Speaker 1: in order to get reimbursed by insurance companies, so they're

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Speaker 1: going to use that. In truth, these are almost identical

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Speaker 1: but not quite the same. And now there's another another

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Speaker 1: definition that is making the rounds, which is called antisocial

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Speaker 1: personality disorder slash psychopathy and a mouthful, which is why

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Speaker 1: I use the term sociopath because this is way too much.

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Speaker 1: So essentially, it's it's somebody who has their grandios. They

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Speaker 1: take advantage of others, they're charismatic, they have a need

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Speaker 1: for excitement. Often have a criminal record, but not always so. Anyhow,

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Speaker 1: it's they're very similar, but not precisely the same. Now,

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Speaker 1: some of those traits, though, seem pretty nice. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like you want excitement in your life, you want to

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Speaker 1: succeed and things like that. That's pretty good, isn't it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And that's the dilemma of these personality disorders, you know,

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Speaker 1: because especially if you talk about antisocial personality, you know,

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Speaker 1: most people interpret anti social to mean that somebody is

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Speaker 1: a hermit. Well that's not the case, you know, because

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Speaker 1: these folks, the way they live is by taking advantage

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Speaker 1: of people, and in order to do that, you need

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Speaker 1: to be outgoing and extroverted and everything like that. So

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Speaker 1: I do talk about this in depth in one of

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Speaker 1: my books, which is called Red Flags of Love, Fraud

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Speaker 1: tend Signs your Dating Associopath, and I go through the traits,

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Speaker 1: and like, the number one trait to recognize someone who's

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Speaker 1: disordered is that they're charismatic and charming, and they're magnetic,

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Speaker 1: and they seem to be a lot of fun in

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Speaker 1: their life of the party. Well, you're right, I mean

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Speaker 1: that sounds like fun, so you know, and they sound

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Speaker 1: like great traits for most people, right, yes, And so

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Speaker 1: that's why you need to look at the entire package.

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Speaker 1: You know. For example, some of the more traits that

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Speaker 1: one would appreciate includes charismatic and charming. They also tend

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Speaker 1: to be very sexy for anybody's looking for a date,

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Speaker 1: you know that that's kind of appealing. And another thing

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Speaker 1: that they do when they're trying to seduce somebody into

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Speaker 1: romantic relationship is that they engage in something that I

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Speaker 1: call the sudden soulmate. I mean, you meet this person

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Speaker 1: and you think that they're wonderful. You feel like you've

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Speaker 1: met the person you're meeting for all your life. Well

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Speaker 1: there's a reason for that, and the reason is that

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Speaker 1: the sociopath studies you, figures out what it is that

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Speaker 1: you want, and makes himself or herself into that person. Interesting, Now,

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Speaker 1: what is the narcissist, The narcissist is very similar narcissists

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Speaker 1: are as the term is commonly known. They focus on themselves.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they tend to think that they're the best

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Speaker 1: and the brightest and the most wonderful. They feel like

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Speaker 1: they're entitled to anything that they want. They feel like

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Speaker 1: they're better than everyone else. And you know, this term

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Speaker 1: has become very common these that past few years. Everybody's

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Speaker 1: talking about narcissist. But then when they talk about the behaviors,

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Speaker 1: to me, it sounds like they're talking with somebody who

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Speaker 1: has antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy. So my theory is

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Speaker 1: that they just don't want to admit that they might

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Speaker 1: be involved with a psychopath, and narcissist doesn't sound so scary,

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Speaker 1: so they're using the terminology narcissist. In reality, I think

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Speaker 1: many of the folks are actually dealing with someone with

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Speaker 1: anti social personality disorder. And you somehow married a sociopath. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this guy took Okay, and let me ask you this, son,

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Speaker 1: it before you married him, you weren't into this. You

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Speaker 1: didn't understand it, you didn't study it. This came after

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Speaker 1: the fact, right absolutely, And unfortunately that's what happens to

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Speaker 1: most of us, you know, who are now trying to

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Speaker 1: help people who have these who get into these situations,

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Speaker 1: is that we were blindsided when this happened to me.

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Speaker 1: It was back in nineteen ninety six, and nobody was

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Speaker 1: talking about any of this stuff. I mentioned previously, the

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Speaker 1: psychopathy Checklist revised. Well, that had just been invented like

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Speaker 1: two or three years before that, and like in ninety

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Speaker 1: three year it was when it came out, so there

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Speaker 1: was no information about this. And plus it was before

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Speaker 1: there was Google, so you couldn't google anybody. So I

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Speaker 1: met this guy. I met him online, although it wasn't

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Speaker 1: long distance, he only lived a half an hour away

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Speaker 1: from me, and he was a total kind man. He

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Speaker 1: took a quarter million dollars from me. Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Hell wait, I'm not done. He cheated with at least

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Speaker 1: six different women during our two and a half year relationship.

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Speaker 1: He had a child with one of those women, and

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Speaker 1: then ten days after I left him, not ten days

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Speaker 1: before after we divorced, but ten days after I left him,

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Speaker 1: he married the mother of the child, which was the

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Speaker 1: second time he committed bigamy. Needless to say, my head

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Speaker 1: was spinning and I was talking to my therapist and

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Speaker 1: telling about all his outrageous betrayals, and she said, he

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Speaker 1: sounds like a sociopath sosiopath. What's that? Yeah, that's how

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Speaker 1: I got into this. And now the name of your

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Speaker 1: new book is called Senior Sociopaths. What does that title

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Speaker 1: tell you? Well, what it tells you is that they

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Speaker 1: never stopped. And this is actually kind of contrary to

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Speaker 1: the prevailing view in the mental health field, because if

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Speaker 1: you look at the research and which I did when

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Speaker 1: I was going through all this time and time again,

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Speaker 1: you'll find in the scientific literature and other articles that

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Speaker 1: the experts are saying, so he had passed burnout in

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Speaker 1: their forties and engage in less antisocial behavior. Well, I

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Speaker 1: was forty when I met this man, and he told

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Speaker 1: me he was forty nine. Of course he lied about that.

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Speaker 1: Then he admitted that he was actually fifty one, and

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Speaker 1: he didn't want to fib to me. Well, he was

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Speaker 1: fifty five, and everything that he did he was between

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Speaker 1: the ages of fifty five and fifty eight. So this

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Speaker 1: guy obviously did not burn out. And I kept hearing

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Speaker 1: the same storyes from other people that they were involved

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Speaker 1: with folks who were twenty thirty forty years older than them,

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Speaker 1: or they were forty fifty or sixty years old and

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Speaker 1: still doing it. So I wanted to research and document

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Speaker 1: whether or not this was a thing, that it was

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Speaker 1: actually happening. And that's I did a survey of love

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Speaker 1: Fraud readers and they verified my suspicions. People who have

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Speaker 1: these disorders do not burn out. Where would you categorize

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Speaker 1: a serial killer Ted Bundy? What would they be? They're

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Speaker 1: probably a psychopath. In fact, doctor Robert Hare, who created

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Speaker 1: the Psychopathy Checklist device, he's like the guru for psychopathy.

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Speaker 1: I believe he wrote about Ted Bundy. So yes, they

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Speaker 1: definitely have psychopathy. They could also have antisocial personality because

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Speaker 1: you know they're very close. But those are the Actually

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Speaker 1: there's other people who are the worst of the worst.

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Speaker 1: Psychopaths are bad. But then there's another category of people

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Speaker 1: who are called schizopaths. And these are people who have

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Speaker 1: both psychopathy and schizophrenia and they're like have no conscience.

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Speaker 1: Plus they're hearing voices. So they're the ones that incredible. Now,

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Speaker 1: in Ted Bundy's case or something like that, were they

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Speaker 1: abused as kids, something happened to them. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: about Ted Bundy's history. But sometimes they're abused and sometimes

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Speaker 1: they're not, because, as I explained, the prime thing for

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Speaker 1: anybody with psychopathy or antisocial personality disorder is that it's

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Speaker 1: highly genetic, and he could have been abused because again,

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Speaker 1: one of the parents could have been disordered and would

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Speaker 1: have been abusive. So yes, plenty of people who have

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Speaker 1: these disorders are abused as children, but that's not always

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Speaker 1: the case, you know. I have spoken to people who

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Speaker 1: have realized that their own children were disordered because it

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Speaker 1: came down through the genetic crap shoot somehow, and they

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Speaker 1: did their best, they took them to therapy, they loved

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Speaker 1: unconditionally and all this stuff, and the kids still turned

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Speaker 1: out bad. So it's it depends on what they call

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Speaker 1: the genetic insult, and what that means is how bad

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Speaker 1: a dose of the bad genetics that somebody gets. So

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Speaker 1: sometimes if someone is born with a predisposition and you

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Speaker 1: start working with them young enough, you can divert them.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes nothing can be done. Now, if you're not

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Speaker 1: a sociopath, if you're not a psychopath, if you're not

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Speaker 1: a narcissist, what are you? What do we call those

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Speaker 1: kinds of normal people? I guess people call it neurotypical.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard that terminology. The short answer is

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Speaker 1: you're healthy or somewhat healthy, and healthy and able to love.

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Speaker 1: I mean this is this is the key difference with

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Speaker 1: people who have one of these personality disorders, the exploitative

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Speaker 1: personality disorders, in that they are impaired in their ability

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Speaker 1: to authentically love. They don't. They just don't have the

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Speaker 1: capacity to truly care about someone else and to put

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Speaker 1: someone else's needs before their own. And that's a reason

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Speaker 1: why they don't have the ability to authentically love. How

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Speaker 1: would you categorize of Vladimir Putin? Based on the things

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Speaker 1: you're seeing right now? He could be disordered? And you

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Speaker 1: know the scary part about that is psychopaths want to win.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is their primary function in life is

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Speaker 1: to win, to be in control, the in power. Would Hitler?

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Speaker 1: Would Hitler be one of those two? A lot of

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Speaker 1: people say that, but I think, um some people have

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Speaker 1: all also said that he had other problems as well,

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Speaker 1: but his behavior is definitely classically psychopathic. Listen to more

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern

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Speaker 1: and go to Coast to Coast am dot com for

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Speaker 1: more