Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
Speaker 1: its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Guess what, We're
Speaker 2: talking True crime all the time. It's Sunday, July thirteenth,
Speaker 2: and we've got a stack knight of headlines. So listen.
Speaker 2: This Epstein thing has blown up across the world and
Speaker 2: we want some answers. What could possibly be the reason
Speaker 2: for that tape to be actually modified? So we're going
Speaker 2: to get into that in a very big way. What
Speaker 2: does it mean? We do have some insight sourcing just
Speaker 2: into the Epstein world. Lisa Bryant, who is the executive
Speaker 2: producer and director of the Netflix documentary Filthy Rich, which
Speaker 2: really focuses on the Epstein days and the victims, etc.
Speaker 2: As well as Gilaine Maxwell, She's going to be joining
Speaker 2: us to kind of dig in and we'll hear her
Speaker 2: opinions about what all of this could or couldn't mean. Also,
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert in host of Bodybags, is
Speaker 2: also going to be joining us to break down suicide
Speaker 2: or did Jeffrey Epstein get killed or was he killed intentionally?
Speaker 2: Always the age old question. And also there have been
Speaker 2: some new developments in the Menandez case, and later in
Speaker 2: the show we're also going to be talking a bit
Speaker 2: more about the Brian Coberger new developments and the Idaho
Speaker 2: student murders. One of the victims mothers is speaking out
Speaker 2: for the very first time, so we'll have more on
Speaker 2: that as well. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head of
Speaker 2: KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries,
Speaker 2: and I get to do that with Courtney Armstrong, host
Speaker 2: and also the voice of many of our podcasts, as
Speaker 2: well as Vadi move In. You'll recognize her of course
Speaker 2: from Don't f with Katz, the Emmy Award winning documentary
Speaker 2: and listen. We want to hear from you, so please
Speaker 2: jump in join the conversation. There's been a ton in
Speaker 2: the news, so if you want to weigh in, call
Speaker 2: us at eight eight eight three one Crime, or you
Speaker 2: could hit us up on our socials at True Crime
Speaker 2: Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, or at True Crime
Speaker 2: Tonight on Facebook. So and also one last thing, I
Speaker 2: just have to say it on behalf of all three
Speaker 2: of us. It's been so refreshing to a get your
Speaker 2: emails and your cases that you really want us to
Speaker 2: focus on. We're getting them, We're hearing it. We're going
Speaker 2: to be digging into this new development in this possible
Speaker 2: new serial killer. So thank you. Just keep those coming.
Speaker 2: We will be doing every single one. So please thank
Speaker 2: you for being our true crime A little true crime crew.
Speaker 2: I guess we should call it our family. So keep
Speaker 2: those ideas coming. But first body, I know you're going
Speaker 2: to hit us up with some headlines. Yeah, where do
Speaker 2: you want to start?
Speaker 3: While there's a big break for the Menanda's brothers, so
Speaker 3: Eric and Lyle Menenda's the brothers at the center of
Speaker 3: like the most infamous murder case in US history. They
Speaker 3: just scored like a super major legal win. As they
Speaker 3: gear up for you know, they have a hearing for parole.
Speaker 3: They've had a lot of little lately, Okay, so they
Speaker 3: were granted re sentencing and they got like, instead of
Speaker 3: life without the possibility of parrol, now they have the
Speaker 3: possibility of parole and they have that hearing in August.
Speaker 3: I think it's late August the twenty first, and the
Speaker 3: twenty second Well, a new court order from July eighth
Speaker 3: is putting pressure on the state to explain why key
Speaker 3: evidence was kept out of their trial. And this evidence
Speaker 3: is that letter. Do you remember we had that gentleman
Speaker 3: on that found the letter. What was his name, Robert,
Speaker 3: Robert Robert, Yes, And this letter it was written prior
Speaker 3: to the murders and it explains to his lyle's cousin
Speaker 3: the molestation that they were having. And well, this letter
Speaker 3: was excluded from court. So they filed for habeas corpus relief.
Speaker 3: Now they have until I think they have thirty days
Speaker 3: to respond to this letter of the prosecution, and the
Speaker 3: judge says that they have to explain why the brother's
Speaker 3: habeas relief should not be granted.
Speaker 2: So if the case, yeah, like for this case specifically,
Speaker 2: the Menanda's brothers were you know, convicted for murdering both
Speaker 2: of their parents. This is back in the eighties, very infamous.
Speaker 2: There's been a documentary also, the Ryan Murphy scripted series
Speaker 2: based on them. And look they're now saying, we served
Speaker 2: our time. This was a murder because we were being
Speaker 2: sexually abused and that was not taken into consideration and
Speaker 2: they've been looking to be freed, and now this is
Speaker 2: yet another step closer for them.
Speaker 4: Right their conviction.
Speaker 3: If habeas corpus relief is granted, if the judge says, yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: let's go ahead, and you know, get this going, their
Speaker 3: original verdicts could be overturned, which is wild now. It
Speaker 3: could be overturned partially, it could be overturned fully, a
Speaker 3: new trial could be ordered, and any number of things
Speaker 3: could happen. I'm not saying they're going to get out,
Speaker 3: because you know, they were never convicted now, but it
Speaker 3: does grant them relief and we'll have to see what happens. Wow,
Speaker 3: they have thirty days to they have thirty days to respond,
Speaker 3: so we'll see. We'll keep an eye on it, and
Speaker 3: we're gonna we're gonna deep dive into it tomorrow too,
Speaker 3: so stay tuned for that.
Speaker 2: Great, great, great great, Yeah, we're also going to be
Speaker 2: digging into those Blake Lively and and so there's a
Speaker 2: hearing on Thursday, so we'll get to that later in
Speaker 2: the week as well.
Speaker 3: I saw on an X there's a like a social
Speaker 3: media influencer I follow. She does like brand marketing and whatnot,
Speaker 3: and she's been kind of like tweeting about this and
Speaker 3: she got a subpoena from Google and has Blake Lily's name.
Speaker 4: While she's freaking out, Oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like freaking out in a bad way or in
Speaker 2: a bad way, She's like, what what did I do?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 4: She's like, what I do?
Speaker 2: She talked about the Queen. I guess, I guess they
Speaker 2: have a lot of money. And it's it's the PR
Speaker 2: machine is so real, right, I'm so interested. We should
Speaker 2: do like an expose on public relations, would have it
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, Like I genuinely don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't either know that we.
Speaker 2: Don't have it. I don't have it either on PR.
Speaker 2: That's me, I do it. It's terrible. Yes, that's great.
Speaker 2: Court you're you're a smiling over there. What do you
Speaker 2: what do you want to say? New ar IM's strong?
Speaker 6: Well, I was actually just when you said, what the PR?
Speaker 6: You know what's doing in the land of PR. And
Speaker 6: it seems like it's gotten much more nefarious just in
Speaker 6: recent I mean, going back to Johnny Depp and going
Speaker 6: back to slander like PR.
Speaker 4: Remember that movie The Dog, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: I certainly do.
Speaker 4: I think it was nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 3: It's an excellent movie and it's the it's kind of
Speaker 3: like how the PR machine can can be nefarious, right,
Speaker 3: I mean ultimately that's kind of what it boils down to.
Speaker 4: It's a really great movie. If you haven't seen it.
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it.
Speaker 4: Oh you wag the dog, the Crossmit wag the dog.
Speaker 2: You know the saying how did you know the date
Speaker 2: it was released? Top of it?
Speaker 6: Because I could be I could be wrong, but I'm
Speaker 6: pretty sure I was in Australia when it happened and
Speaker 6: I was like, wow, you really liked that movie. But
Speaker 6: what the crux is is there's these politicians and the
Speaker 6: PR and the politicians in some sort of hot water
Speaker 6: I don't recall what, and it's like, well, you want
Speaker 6: attention off of you, let's create a war, and a
Speaker 6: PR machine creates it.
Speaker 2: It's it's a parody. It's oh, check that out. Is
Speaker 2: it possible?
Speaker 1: Though?
Speaker 2: We're just seeing more of it because of social media,
Speaker 2: and I think because maybe it's always been nefarious in there,
Speaker 2: but we just are kind of getting a little smarter
Speaker 2: to it now.
Speaker 6: I think it's quicker too. Everything used to there used
Speaker 6: to actually be news cycles.
Speaker 3: Right, this is a twenty four hour news cycle now right, like, yes,
Speaker 3: we can't get away from the news if we wanted to.
Speaker 3: That's true, speaking of bad politicians, right, thanks.
Speaker 2: For the news. Yes, we don't want you getting away
Speaker 2: from it either, exactly.
Speaker 6: This is true crime.
Speaker 2: Tonight We're on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 6: I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with my buddy Body
Speaker 6: Movin and Stephanie Leidecker and Lisa Bryant is about to
Speaker 6: join us so we can speak about Jeffrey Ebstein. If
Speaker 6: you have thoughts, and I know you do, we want
Speaker 6: to hear from you, give us a call. We're at
Speaker 6: eighty eight three to one Crime or leave us a talkback.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Lisa, Lisa Bryant. Do we have Lisa Bryant on
Speaker 2: the line before Welcome to the show. I'll give a
Speaker 2: little just sort of backstory on Lisa Bryant. So, Hi, Lisa,
Speaker 2: Lisa Bryant has been We've been developing a project together,
Speaker 2: Lisa Bryant and Kat and I've had the benefit of
Speaker 2: working with you a bit in recent times. But really
Speaker 2: your career kind of is it speaks for itself. As
Speaker 2: you know, Lisa's been in the Joe Berlinger camp of greatness,
Speaker 2: that most infamous momentarian and all the land. And you know,
Speaker 2: she did this extraordinary Epstein doc back in the day
Speaker 2: when frankly, it was probably a little dangerous to be
Speaker 2: even making documentaries about Epstein and the victims, and it
Speaker 2: was really extraordinary. So I'm so grateful Lisa that you're
Speaker 2: joining us and can kind of, you know, give us
Speaker 2: a little insight into the behive of all things Epstein
Speaker 2: based on just your experience obviously, so welcome.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you so much. I'm happy to share my
Speaker 7: you know, insights. And when I worked on that and
Speaker 7: still have been following it, it just keeps going on
Speaker 7: and on, and it's it's crazy, you know, that's kind
Speaker 7: of a weird way to put on. But it's a
Speaker 7: nightmare that never ends, really, you know, He's really just
Speaker 7: a nightmare that never ends.
Speaker 2: So it's one of those cases. And I know I've
Speaker 2: like tortured you about talking about it, you know, when
Speaker 2: we've had our calls together completely on separate matters. I
Speaker 2: don't like anyway back to Epstein because I really was
Speaker 2: kind of taken by this case. You know, we'd always
Speaker 2: heard these rumblings and in case you're listening and not
Speaker 2: following it too closely. Jeffrey Epstein was a very wealthy
Speaker 2: American financier and he was later convicted for being a
Speaker 2: sex offender and operating a very vast sex trafficking thing.
Speaker 2: But just to kind of paint a picture, he was
Speaker 2: like a handsome man with like lots of opportunities and
Speaker 2: New York City socialite guy and had a place in
Speaker 2: West Palm Beach. I'm paraphrasing, but this was my interpret
Speaker 2: And then he was like so wealthy and so infamous
Speaker 2: that he had this he bought an island, and on
Speaker 2: this island that only select people, if invited, could attend.
Speaker 2: There was this big, fancy mansion and you know, basically
Speaker 2: all the who's who of the world, whether it's Prince
Speaker 2: Andrew or the Clinton's or you know, very big powerful
Speaker 2: leaders in our world would go and you know, kind
Speaker 2: of hobnob at this infamous island. And in my head,
Speaker 2: I'm imagining like Gallas and you know, dining by the pool,
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. And you know, little by little
Speaker 2: we started hearing rumors that, I don't know, that hobnobbing
Speaker 2: might be a little you know, weird, because also young
Speaker 2: girls you know, as young as thirteen years old were
Speaker 2: also being asked to go to this infamous island and
Speaker 2: act as maybe messuses for these very high profile men.
Speaker 2: And I don't think there were any real women there
Speaker 2: per se, but regardless, the men are the ones that
Speaker 2: I always was kind of hearing about. And then those massuses,
Speaker 2: you know, slash massage therapists. Really that became like sort
Speaker 2: of code word for sex trafficking. And the kind of
Speaker 2: the scary part of this story has always been the
Speaker 2: folklore of was this Epstein guy kind of luring young
Speaker 2: women to come to this island to be with these
Speaker 2: very high profile men, and then they would be videotape.
Speaker 2: Like when this whole story broke back in the day,
Speaker 2: it was like every single inch of this entire mansion
Speaker 2: had had video cameras everywhere a little bit like what
Speaker 2: we're seeing in the ditty case or allegedly what was
Speaker 2: happening in the ditty case allegedly allegedly allegedly, so that
Speaker 2: there was like a control room that you could see
Speaker 2: all the cameras all over the mansion, so that if
Speaker 2: like air quotes a prince or air quotes a former
Speaker 2: president or an ambassador. People that were making very worldly
Speaker 2: decisions would be air quotes lured there and then they
Speaker 2: would be in the presence of maybe a thirteen year
Speaker 2: old girl or young woman and oh shoot, you didn't
Speaker 2: realize that that kind of got a little frisky.
Speaker 4: Oh shoot, we have.
Speaker 2: Oh well, we have it on camera. And then that
Speaker 2: was a way of kind of the there's a term
Speaker 2: for it, honey potting or honey taking, and when you like,
Speaker 2: lure bees to a hive. And then therefore those tapes
Speaker 2: were then later used as blackmail and potentially very worldly situations.
Speaker 6: Eeke, when we come back, we're gonna hear everything from
Speaker 6: top to bottom. Lease and I know we just bombarded
Speaker 6: a bunch of information, but we cannot.
Speaker 2: Wait to hear that thought.
Speaker 4: Hold that thought, your side of.
Speaker 6: This and listen, we are gonna continue diving into this.
Speaker 6: When we come back, we'll have more insider knowledge on
Speaker 6: Epstein in the wake of shocking recent developments, and later
Speaker 6: also a forensic expert, Joseph Scott Morgan will be joining us.
Speaker 6: Keep it here on True Crime Tonight, we are talking
Speaker 6: true crime all the time.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. And we're about to be
Speaker 2: joined by a very special guest, Lisa Bryant, who is
Speaker 2: the director and the executive producer of Netflix's documentary Filthy Rich,
Speaker 2: which really focused on Epstein and his victims back then.
Speaker 2: But you know, she for sure has very interesting insight.
Speaker 2: So just to go back to our last segment again,
Speaker 2: some of this is my personal These are the theories
Speaker 2: that we've heard in the press that people were being
Speaker 2: lured to this island of high profile and power. That
Speaker 2: is that has not improven. Fact, some men in black
Speaker 2: vests have shown up downstairs here at the studio. I'm kidding.
Speaker 2: So yeah. And then anyway, Jeffrey Epstein gets arrested and
Speaker 2: charged and is sitting in prison in New York and
Speaker 2: then suddenly he takes his own life. And that seemed
Speaker 2: like the allegedly allegedly, allegedly allegedly, but now it seems that,
Speaker 2: you know, Pambondi, now we're in current time. White House
Speaker 2: Land is like, oh, yeah, all these high profile people
Speaker 2: on his client list, We're going to share this with
Speaker 2: the public because it's been long talked about and touted about.
Speaker 2: And then she does a very unexpected thing. She does
Speaker 2: it take back and is like, wait what, I didn't
Speaker 2: mean that. No, there is no client list, not that
Speaker 2: there's not a list that's been redacted for the sake
Speaker 2: of the victims, etc. But rather there's no list at all.
Speaker 2: Ks his right arm, kind of like his number two woman.
Speaker 2: Her name is Gillien Maxwell. If you know this already,
Speaker 2: just you know, bear with me. She was in fact
Speaker 2: arrested for her shenanigains with him and is currently serving
Speaker 2: time on federal charges because of these ongoings. So if
Speaker 2: there was no client list, why is she in prison?
Speaker 2: And why did we even volunteer this client list in
Speaker 2: the first place. All of it is making the whole
Speaker 2: country crazy because we just want some facts, right, So
Speaker 2: don't forget the video. Well, the video, I guess is
Speaker 2: like the the lead. So they released this.
Speaker 3: You know, eleven hour video that was apparently supposed to
Speaker 3: be footage of you know, Jeffrey Epstein's cell. By the way,
Speaker 3: you can you cannot see his cell in this video.
Speaker 3: It's ridiculous. And they said it was the raw footage.
Speaker 3: The raw footage was their exact verbage the Department of Justice.
Speaker 3: But there's a minute missing and there's an aspect ratio change,
Speaker 3: and the metadata tells us that the video has been
Speaker 3: edited by you know, Adobe Pro Premiere and it's two
Speaker 3: video clips flice together. So there's that which is only
Speaker 3: adding fuel to the fire.
Speaker 2: By the way, I know how to edit on Adobe Premiere,
Speaker 2: Like you would think this would be a little bit
Speaker 2: more sophisticated. So well, they shouldn't have said raw footage
Speaker 2: if it's not the raw footage eleven hours, one little section.
Speaker 3: So the footage and everything though, especially with this crowd,
Speaker 3: it's everything, and there's been so much discussion about it.
Speaker 2: Who's on the list? What does that mean? Like? Who
Speaker 2: are we protecting? Who is is it nefarious? You know,
Speaker 2: it seems like my two cents again, my two cents.
Speaker 2: It seems like there's a pox on all the houses
Speaker 2: right now. So is it one side, is it the other? No?
Speaker 2: Or is it just this larger umbrella that scares the
Speaker 2: but Jesus out of me. It makes me so scared,
Speaker 2: and I know I'm not alone in this, so anyway,
Speaker 2: welcome the sane one. Lisa Bryant. Can you imagine you
Speaker 2: can bring Lisa Bryant being stuck with me in a
Speaker 2: car or something having to hear this. So Lisa tell
Speaker 2: us everything. What do you think of these days? So
Speaker 2: your experience back in the day when you were discussing,
Speaker 2: when you were making your doc and Epstein like, these
Speaker 2: were all very these were scary topics. Were you ever
Speaker 2: nervous even making this documentary in the first place?
Speaker 7: I was, let me tell you all about it in
Speaker 7: one second. I just wanted to. Since you just gave
Speaker 7: the rundown of kind of the latest, I was just
Speaker 7: going to give you my gut reaction to all of
Speaker 7: this news, the DOJ report, that's okay, I mean, of course,
Speaker 7: my personal opinion after following this case for like seven
Speaker 7: years now, it's hardly you. I really think this was
Speaker 7: a really poor attempt to shut down the overwhelming public
Speaker 7: interest and it just backfired. I think the report re
Speaker 7: traumatizes the victims, gives no real answers, angers the public
Speaker 7: that just really has this insatiable appetite and let's face it,
Speaker 7: right to know about this story. I mean, inquiring minds
Speaker 7: want to know things just don't add up. Everybody thinks
Speaker 7: they're being lied to by the government, right, The only
Speaker 7: feels conspiracies more. Ever, since the report came out. There's
Speaker 7: been growing outrage I think daily because we're learning a
Speaker 7: little bit more by different people who are speaking out.
Speaker 7: You know, there's just this outrage you know by President
Speaker 7: Trump's you know, most vocal supporters in the past, and
Speaker 7: they're calling bs you know, where's the transparency. So that's
Speaker 7: kind of my personal you know, take that. How stupid
Speaker 7: do they think we are?
Speaker 4: I know, being guess.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm being casolate.
Speaker 6: So Lisa, just to super clarify, So, do you believe
Speaker 6: there actually is the list which obviously Attorney General Pam
Speaker 6: bondis BONDI said, you know, sitting on my desk, do
Speaker 6: you believe that list exists?
Speaker 7: Well, I think the term list client list is not
Speaker 7: the right term. No, I don't think there is a
Speaker 7: client list because I think there are different different lists,
Speaker 7: if you will, or names that have already been put
Speaker 7: out there. And I think most, if not all of
Speaker 7: the names that are going to be put out there
Speaker 7: are somewhere to be seen and you can make your
Speaker 7: own list. But I mean the idea that I think
Speaker 7: the general public has of a list is like you know,
Speaker 7: your pen and paper you'd have on your notepad, at school,
Speaker 7: and then at the top jeffreyption. You would say Jeffrey's list,
Speaker 7: that's that, never this, And I think that's a misconception
Speaker 7: that the public has because really, there the flight logs, right,
Speaker 7: there's flight logs that names a lot of people. A
Speaker 7: lot of those people are guilty of something a lot
Speaker 7: or not. Must be very clear about that. The Black
Speaker 7: Book hundreds of pages, hundreds of names. There's a lot
Speaker 7: of guilty people there having sex with girls. Whether they're
Speaker 7: underage of age doesn't matter. There are there are guilty
Speaker 7: people in there, and I know that from hearing from
Speaker 7: the victims, from doing research from sadly people who probably
Speaker 7: may never be prosecuted. But there are names there, so
Speaker 7: you can kind of create your own list. There are
Speaker 7: also names that have been put forth in court documents.
Speaker 7: You know, we can't say every name that's been in.
Speaker 7: Some have been reacted, some names have not been reacting.
Speaker 7: Can't you know, assume that everyone is guilty that's there.
Speaker 7: But you know, I think if you've been really investigating this,
Speaker 7: and you know, I think talking to surviving is key
Speaker 7: and getting you know their story. I think I have
Speaker 7: my own list. I can't say I have a working list,
Speaker 7: I should say, you know what I mean in terms
Speaker 7: of like people that we you know, I had the
Speaker 7: team that I've worked with on both the different documentaries,
Speaker 7: the Jeffrey Epstein Filthie Rich and then the Maxwell follow
Speaker 7: up documentary. So there's you know that we had great teams,
Speaker 7: great people, great support with Netflix and Radical Medy and
Speaker 7: Joe growing drew of course, And but it's very difficult
Speaker 7: to name names. As you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 7: big risks, and I have to say, you know, and
Speaker 7: now to get back a little bit to how this
Speaker 7: hole started and was I ever nervous? And it's funny.
Speaker 7: I was working at Radical Media on a different project
Speaker 7: that had just kind of finished, and Joe said to me,
Speaker 7: I have another project coming up, but we really need
Speaker 7: a female to direct this. Would you be interested in
Speaker 7: this guy named Jeffrey Epstein? And I never heard Jeffrey Epstein,
Speaker 7: I you know, didn't grow up in New York, California, girl,
Speaker 7: and not that I just never was didn't run run
Speaker 7: in those circles. And I looked him up, and you know,
Speaker 7: the more I read, the more outraged I became, the
Speaker 7: more interested I became in trying to reveal, you know,
Speaker 7: some of this story, because he was very much alive
Speaker 7: when I started. I started a story in November of
Speaker 7: twenty eighteen. He was arrested eight months later. We had
Speaker 7: already and this is little TV talk, but we had
Speaker 7: already delivered our first rough cut to the network before
Speaker 7: he was arrested. But I will say, and I still
Speaker 7: say this, this was the hardest, faddest, most kind of
Speaker 7: an inexcruciatingly frustrating story that I have ever could ever
Speaker 7: and we'll ever work on and most important, you know,
Speaker 7: I'm grateful for the experience. But it's also been very
Speaker 7: heavy heavy. As you guys can imagine.
Speaker 3: The responsibility to tell the story. It's it's a massive
Speaker 3: responsibility to tell the story. So yeah, I can see
Speaker 3: why that would be like really heavy for you.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you know he was he was very much alive,
Speaker 7: trafficking girls, not just to his island, which is you know,
Speaker 7: kind of the sexy thing that we and really I
Speaker 7: think the worst and most you know, crazy stuff from
Speaker 7: my research and then talking to people happened there. You know,
Speaker 7: it's remote, it's hidden and very secretive, and you get
Speaker 7: blown out there and you know it's very you know, mysterious,
Speaker 7: but he also remembered he had his Manhattan townhouse, huge
Speaker 7: Manhattan townhouse where all those cameras you're talking about and those,
Speaker 7: and also on the island. He had his big mansion
Speaker 7: in Santa Fe, well just outside of Sante in New Mexico.
Speaker 7: He also had a place in Paris, you know, he
Speaker 7: and then of course his infamous Florida home where his
Speaker 7: high school operation went. He really had three different kind
Speaker 7: of ways, and I guess decades of of grooming and
Speaker 7: trafficking women. MaTx Elgawleyne Maxwell, his number two partner in crime,
Speaker 7: was really a little along the ride for most of it.
Speaker 7: It kind of started in the early nineties, you know,
Speaker 7: for the most part. That's where it kind of really
Speaker 7: picked up steam where she was really really involved. She
Speaker 7: was his girlfriend, She dated him, she was madly in
Speaker 7: love with.
Speaker 2: She loved him, right, that's my scoop on that, Like
Speaker 2: she was crazy for him and like somehow thought getting
Speaker 2: him more girls would keep him in her world. This
Speaker 2: is again my like soap opera version in my head.
Speaker 2: But it seemed like she was really.
Speaker 7: In love with She seems to be accurate. Yeah, that
Speaker 7: that is that's Okay, that's what we reported, and that
Speaker 7: seems to be why. I mean, it can never explain
Speaker 7: why why would someone do the things that she has
Speaker 7: been convicted of. Let's just say she's been convicted, so
Speaker 7: we can say that she did. You know, she was
Speaker 7: his you know, it was an international sex trafficking scheme,
Speaker 7: really pyramids. He was at the top, the main pimp.
Speaker 7: She was pimp number two. She was his right hand woman.
Speaker 7: And really, especially in those early nineties, they were recruiting
Speaker 7: you know, everything from models, the girls standing outside of
Speaker 7: famous private schools in New York City, to going to
Speaker 7: beauty pageants that presidents were hosting and things like that
Speaker 7: and plucking out, you know, women that he was attracted to,
Speaker 7: that spit the mold, that seemed like perhaps they were
Speaker 7: in need of something. Summer camps, how you know, it
Speaker 7: was always this kind of house. How I can help.
Speaker 3: More with expert Lisa Bryant on the shocking Epstein updates,
Speaker 3: and we're going to be unpacking his alleged suicide with
Speaker 3: forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and later we want to
Speaker 3: be hearing from you. Give us a call at eight
Speaker 3: eight eight thirty one Crime we'll be right back.
Speaker 4: Keep it right here. True Crime Tonight, where we're talking
Speaker 4: true crime all the time.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. And we're also joined by director,
Speaker 2: executive producer, colleague and friend Lisa Bryant. Now, she made
Speaker 2: the Netflix documentary Filthy Rich, the Epstein Free Epstein doc
Speaker 2: as well as the follow up about Gileen Maxwell. So
Speaker 2: Lisa was just telling us that she actually started working
Speaker 2: on this documentary for you know, months before Jeffrey was
Speaker 2: actually arrested. I didn't realize he was still alive when
Speaker 2: you were working on this, Lisa. That means it was
Speaker 2: very dangerous. So go ahead, phill Us in from what happens?
Speaker 2: Were you ever at the island?
Speaker 7: No? Yes, a matter of fact, I staked out three
Speaker 7: of his properties. I went to the island twice, once
Speaker 7: when he was alive, once after he was dead, suicided, whatever.
Speaker 7: And I also staked out his Florida home and his
Speaker 7: New York mansion. And I did go actually to New
Speaker 7: Mexico too and got there as well.
Speaker 8: But the island.
Speaker 4: While he went to the island, well.
Speaker 7: Let me clarify, I never went on. I was not
Speaker 7: I was not allowed on the island for I took
Speaker 7: a boat with a camera person. Of course, we're like.
Speaker 8: We're we're going that I was around the gods not
Speaker 8: so much because everywhere you look, as you get closer,
Speaker 8: because you fly into Saint Thomas and then you take
Speaker 8: you know, a boat, you.
Speaker 7: Can it's it's you know, it's not huge, but it
Speaker 7: certainly you'll take it a little while to put around it.
Speaker 7: So we're like, oh, it looks like there's like almost
Speaker 7: they look like little tanks. But I guess they're jeeps,
Speaker 7: but from far away because some of them had like
Speaker 7: you know, army prints, and I was kind of like, oh,
Speaker 7: got some tanks out there protecting it. But actually I
Speaker 7: think they were just jeeps. But there, you know, you
Speaker 7: can see him in certain areas that we'd just you know,
Speaker 7: go on the water a little further around seeing maybe
Speaker 7: we can get on over there, maybe we can get
Speaker 7: on under. And I'm telling you, the minute they are
Speaker 7: they are all of his you know, security is on
Speaker 7: guard before he's before he's arrested, after he's arrested, and
Speaker 7: after he's dead, people are still running that island. So
Speaker 7: we never were able to get on because we saw
Speaker 7: these men on you know, these commerce or what jeeps
Speaker 7: following the boats as going around, you know, to the island,
Speaker 7: so we could see that they had guns. So that
Speaker 7: was a little scary. But I will say that after
Speaker 7: he was dead, I didn't see you know, we got
Speaker 7: on the boat again because of course, that's what you
Speaker 7: wanted to try to get on the island and take
Speaker 7: pictures of yourself, you know, the whole crazy weird stuff
Speaker 7: and see if there's a tunnels and all of that.
Speaker 7: But anyway tunnel you get close to, well, there's rumors
Speaker 7: there were tunnels underneath, and you know it's not I
Speaker 7: don't even know if it's rumors, if I'm hearing it
Speaker 7: from a survivor, you know, it's let's just say, there's
Speaker 7: the answer. Could have been some tunnels underneath eye, you know,
Speaker 7: I cannot say. But bottom line is, we go and
Speaker 7: we're getting closer and closer to the docks, and there's
Speaker 7: nobody in sight. But all of a sudden, probably I
Speaker 7: don't know, twenty yards from the dock. He's kind of
Speaker 7: it's kind of hilly, it's an island, and they're from
Speaker 7: all sides. They're about I would say, two on each
Speaker 7: side of these these men and jeeps again with with
Speaker 7: literally black what looked like to me, I don't know
Speaker 7: what machine, look looks like a machine done. And they
Speaker 7: come hauling towards the yacht and like making noise with
Speaker 7: some sort of noise maker or something. And I first thought, oh,
Speaker 7: maybe this is like the police just protecting the island.
Speaker 7: It was the night it was Epstein still had even
Speaker 7: though he's gone, he's dead, you know, his people were
Speaker 7: still for a very long time running all of his properties.
Speaker 7: It took a long time to go through all this,
Speaker 7: you know, the legal stuff and probade and all this
Speaker 7: kind of stuff, which is I think some of this
Speaker 7: is scillity's been going on. But anyway, we high tailed
Speaker 7: out that. That was a little scary. The other time,
Speaker 7: like when we staked out his house because we were
Speaker 7: tracking my team was tracking his plane. You know, he
Speaker 7: has a private jet his tail number, and we wanted
Speaker 7: to approach his house. That I wasn't physically like afraid
Speaker 7: he was going to do something to me, but I
Speaker 7: really wanted to, you know, do like a door knock,
Speaker 7: you know, like in TV your doorknock. So at a
Speaker 7: house I did. It was like a door knock because
Speaker 7: we had tracked his plane. We knew he was there.
Speaker 7: We saw this mysterious you know escalade, like a parade
Speaker 7: of escalades go in. So we just kind of sat outside.
Speaker 7: There's you know, there's there's a gate and there's a
Speaker 7: little buzzer. So I hit the buzzer and sure enough
Speaker 7: his door manner or house manager says, you know, hello,
Speaker 7: and I said, you know, as mister Epstein home. No,
Speaker 7: he's not here. And I said, oh, I identified myself
Speaker 7: and are you sure he's not here because I could
Speaker 7: swear that I saw him pull in. Nope, he's not here.
Speaker 7: If you want to leave your card, I said, I'm
Speaker 7: absolutely going to leave my card. And anyway, I never
Speaker 7: did get a chance to talk to him, but I
Speaker 7: do believe in fact he was there and heading out.
Speaker 7: And then one other time, this is you know, I.
Speaker 2: Don't have tory, Like my jaws dropped right now that
Speaker 2: you're putting yourself in these very dangerous these are like
Speaker 2: the hornet's nest. Like we wouldn't even google his name
Speaker 2: at one point because it was sort of that scary
Speaker 2: of a case because of all of the high profile
Speaker 2: people that he may or may not have been connected to.
Speaker 2: So continue we're in awe.
Speaker 7: Well, I think part of it is I think I
Speaker 7: was sort of in denial too. I don't think we
Speaker 7: really knew at that point. How you know, you're hearing
Speaker 7: these rumors and but we certainly didn't know it was
Speaker 7: like hundreds of women and you know, I mean, we
Speaker 7: just didn't know that when it was going on, we
Speaker 7: knew it was bad and that you know that the
Speaker 7: two thousand and eight the Palm Beach Police kind of
Speaker 7: buffed that whole thing, or alex Acosta was the fall
Speaker 7: guy for that government botch. I believe that, you know,
Speaker 7: to give him just a slap on the wrist and
Speaker 7: let him right back out. But it was just kind
Speaker 7: of evolved into what it became. I guess that. So
Speaker 7: I guess I didn't have the fear that I probably
Speaker 7: should have.
Speaker 2: Passed in retrospect in hindsight, right, like knowing what we
Speaker 2: know now that he was like a real worldwide sex trafficker.
Speaker 2: In case you're just joining us too, please hit us
Speaker 2: up eight eight eight three one crime if you want
Speaker 2: to join the conversation. We have director Lisa Bryant who
Speaker 2: is an incredible director and executive producer, but also did
Speaker 2: the Epstein and Geleen Maxwell documentaries on Netflix. So she's
Speaker 2: kind of giving us a little behind the scenes here
Speaker 2: and basically how she was knocking on doors when he
Speaker 2: was alive and also tried to get on the island
Speaker 2: when he was And by the way, the island's a
Speaker 2: big deal because if young girls are being brought there, imagine, oh, hey,
Speaker 2: come with us to this fancy island with this very fancy,
Speaker 2: you know man and all of his fancy friends. And
Speaker 2: then you can't get off the island because you have
Speaker 2: to take a little private plane to get there in
Speaker 2: the first place. So that's particularly scaring because you can't
Speaker 2: just not that there's ever a just when you're being
Speaker 2: you know, assaulted, but you can't run. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 7: He took the girl's passport. And actually Glene Maxwell often
Speaker 7: she had a helicopter pilot's license. She would helicopter the
Speaker 7: girls there from they would fly to the main island
Speaker 7: and then they would she would helicopter some of them
Speaker 7: over to Little Saint James was the name.
Speaker 2: Of the island.
Speaker 4: That's wild perfect.
Speaker 7: Yeah, she is a license helicopter anyway, Yeah, we can
Speaker 7: talk about her and her involvement.
Speaker 6: Oh, I was going to say on the Gileen Maxwell,
Speaker 6: which is the documentary I watched most recently, and it
Speaker 6: is so compelling and so well done. What's Killeen Maxwell?
Speaker 6: Was she procuring all of these girls and women for
Speaker 6: because the go ahead?
Speaker 7: Not the high school girls. Not the high school girls,
Speaker 7: and she would she claimed that she was out of
Speaker 7: his life by then. That turns out not to be
Speaker 7: the case. She would actually kind of hit out on
Speaker 7: the island. So there was still kind of the what
Speaker 7: I would say, the older girls, a little bit older,
Speaker 7: the high school girls, which is what made you know,
Speaker 7: for the arrest. Really in two thousand and five is
Speaker 7: when Palm Beach police got involved when the mother of
Speaker 7: a fourteen year old girl said, oh, my daughter had
Speaker 7: a school called me. She had all this cash in
Speaker 7: her in her pocketbook and there was a fight that
Speaker 7: broke out and anyway, so that's what started the investigation,
Speaker 7: and they had you know, identified, you know, during that investigation,
Speaker 7: like more than two dozen I think almost three dozen
Speaker 7: victims of Jeffrey Epstein and so Glaine. But what was
Speaker 7: crazy about that is the high school girls ended up
Speaker 7: recruiting themselves. It was a crazy thing. And I think
Speaker 7: that's what is so like unbelievable when people hear about this,
Speaker 7: and it's it's fascinating, but not in a good way.
Speaker 7: It's shocking really. So they had started with someone, you know,
Speaker 7: who was a young woman, probably not much older than
Speaker 7: high school who would you know, recruit and said, this
Speaker 7: guy needs a massage, and then you know, if you
Speaker 7: bring somebody then you can get money too. And and
Speaker 7: you know, some of the girls like they didn't want to,
Speaker 7: you know, take part in the massages, but hey, I'll
Speaker 7: bring a friend. I mean, but these are all a
Speaker 7: lot of the girls targeted were very vulnerable, you know,
Speaker 7: had came from broken homes, had money problems, or they
Speaker 7: you know, had big dreams that you know, he promised
Speaker 7: to fulfill. But the fact that at you know, some
Speaker 7: of these high schools, there was two high schools in
Speaker 7: particular in West Palm Beach that the girls would recruit
Speaker 7: each other and it was like a train and it
Speaker 7: went on and on and on for like four or
Speaker 7: five years till finally, you know, the the cops got
Speaker 7: wind of it. But I don't know how, like the
Speaker 7: teacher or other kids. Didn't everybody knew about it. The
Speaker 7: survivors that we talked to, who are right underage girls.
Speaker 7: It's a very open secret. How that never got out before.
Speaker 7: It's crazy. But you know, when their children, their brains
Speaker 7: are not fully formed. We know they can't get consent.
Speaker 7: They're you know, getting some money, which I know a
Speaker 7: lot of people have issue with, Well why did they
Speaker 7: go back. They're getting something out of it, they got paid.
Speaker 7: Their children they can't. And even once who are like
Speaker 7: eighteen nineteen, you're still your brain is not fully formed.
Speaker 7: Your your prefrontal cortex is not formed until you're in
Speaker 7: your mid twenties. So it's and again when you're being
Speaker 7: roomed and manipulated, and you know, he paid attention to
Speaker 7: these girls, you know, and a lot of them. It's
Speaker 7: kind of weird. I talked to some you know, weird
Speaker 7: not even the right word. It's it's sad and shocking.
Speaker 7: But some girl said that they actually were in love
Speaker 7: with him, you know, And I don't think that's all
Speaker 7: that in common. That sometimes room all in love with
Speaker 7: your abuser.
Speaker 3: That's what groomers do. They make you fall in love
Speaker 3: with them. That's the that's.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially like you know, he wasn't like, you know,
Speaker 2: a scary looking guy like he was like a successful,
Speaker 2: you know, affluent guy. And that's why having Elaine Maxwell
Speaker 2: his number two was even more you know, damning Frankly,
Speaker 2: and why she's Frankly serving time because you know, when
Speaker 2: there's a woman around that, it makes it feel a
Speaker 2: little safer. Right, So if you have a woman saying, oh,
Speaker 2: it's cool, just come you'll be safe here, you don't
Speaker 2: think like, oh my god, older, creepy man, he's going
Speaker 2: to lock the door behind me. When there's somehow another
Speaker 2: female in the mix, it seems somehow safer. And I
Speaker 2: think that's really something worth exploring and us talking about. Absolutely. Listen,
Speaker 2: there was allegedly this list of a very you know,
Speaker 2: influential and high profile world leaders for example, that were
Speaker 2: going to this very fancy island that he owned in girls,
Speaker 2: young ones as young as thirteen years old were being
Speaker 2: lured there to essentially have sex with these with these men.
Speaker 2: And then Epstein allegedly allegedly allegedly was you know, videotaping it.
Speaker 2: That was there was cameras everywhere, you know, The assertion
Speaker 2: or the conspiracy theory behind it. Again, this is a
Speaker 2: theory in one that I happened to agree with that
Speaker 2: that was maybe revenge video. Right. So now you have
Speaker 2: these young girls, high profile world leaders. Now there's videotape
Speaker 2: of maybe some nefarious behavior, and suddenly that's maybe a
Speaker 2: blackmail situation.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 2: So that's a little bit of the collateral Undergrearent. It's
Speaker 2: like collateral. It's like collateral.
Speaker 7: Yes. And what I think's interesting is because the DOJ
Speaker 7: report says, quote, there was no credible evidence found that
Speaker 7: Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals. Well, I do think there are
Speaker 7: still some graphic comprom ats, as they call it, blackmail
Speaker 7: tapes and photos that Epstein made of influential power for
Speaker 7: men and others having sex with women that he and
Speaker 7: Maxwell's trafficked to them, that he used leverage to build
Speaker 7: his empire. And really, you know, that's how he made millions. Really,
Speaker 7: I think almost all the survivors that I've spoken with
Speaker 7: saying Steen cameras or learned they were hidden cameras at
Speaker 7: multiple homes, not just the island. His New York home,
Speaker 7: I know, was crawling with them, according to you know,
Speaker 7: multiple survivors. And you remember when his home was raided.
Speaker 7: Right after the arrest, they came out, FBI came out
Speaker 7: carrying boxes of CDs and photos. They said photos. I'm
Speaker 7: sure there were also some videos on those CDs. And
Speaker 7: they also then raided the island and his homes, all
Speaker 7: of the homes, you know. And also one of the
Speaker 7: victims who, sadly, her name is Virginia Giufrey, sadly committed suicide.
Speaker 7: But before we talk about that a little bit, she
Speaker 7: said told me that, you know, Estein had told her
Speaker 7: that he had taped these tapes of a lot of
Speaker 7: important people doing things they shouldn't and that's he plat
Speaker 7: Up told her that. Now, yes, I guess there's always
Speaker 7: the chance that he could be making that up. But many,
Speaker 7: many people believe he was running a blackmail operation on
Speaker 7: behalf of a foreign government. Many people in DC and
Speaker 7: elsewhere believe that.
Speaker 4: And you said, you said.
Speaker 7: They think he might have been operating on behalf of
Speaker 7: foreign intelligence services.
Speaker 4: I mean, because it's used to the.
Speaker 7: Weapon is reel actually right, because.
Speaker 3: This information is used as a weapon. Compromound is a
Speaker 3: very specific turn which is coming right off the heels
Speaker 3: of the diddy stuff.
Speaker 2: I mean again, this is the high profile play right
Speaker 2: now as dangerous as it gets. First of all, Lisa
Speaker 2: Bryant with us, who's the director of the Epstein documentary
Speaker 2: and the Gileen Maxwell follow up documentary. You can catch
Speaker 2: it on Netflix, giving us sort of this inside track
Speaker 2: information and like, listen, that is some scary stuff. So
Speaker 2: the fact that that is now there's a little bit
Speaker 2: take back of that information is also kind of scary
Speaker 2: because you know, what do we do for victims? We listen,
Speaker 2: We're going to be right back, So Lisa, I know
Speaker 2: where we're keeping you for there's we'll be back True
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the time. Welcome
Speaker 2: back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
Speaker 2: crime all the time, and listen. We want you to
Speaker 2: jump in and join the conversation eight eight eight three
Speaker 2: one crime or hit us up on our socials at
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, or at
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight on Facebook. We're talking Epstein, are we ever?
Speaker 2: Because we have Lisa Bryant, the director of Filthy Rich
Speaker 2: also the executive producer. So Filthy Rich is the documentary
Speaker 2: about Jeffrey Epstein on Netflix. Definitely check it out. She
Speaker 2: also did the follow up for Gilain Maxwell's dot commentary
Speaker 2: and Lisa Bryan like she literally was going door to door,
Speaker 2: knocking on doors. She took a boat to try to
Speaker 2: get on the island. Turns out she was enabled to,
Speaker 2: as we just heard, if you've missed any of the
Speaker 2: last hour, you can always catch it right after the
Speaker 2: show as a podcast. Please do so, Lisa back to you.
Speaker 2: We were kind of knee deep in the many conspiracy theories,
Speaker 2: or not even conspiracies, the many theories that at least
Speaker 2: I'm seeing the chatter on is that maybe Epstein was
Speaker 2: working for a foreign agent and was essentially, you know,
Speaker 2: whether he was luring powerful, high profile world leaders to
Speaker 2: his island and had videotapes everywhere in cameras, videotapes like
Speaker 2: it's nineteen seventy five. He had cameras everywhere, So that
Speaker 2: essentially if a leader or somebody of significance and importance
Speaker 2: was you know, having sex with a thirteen year old
Speaker 2: or an underage woman or even just a young woman
Speaker 2: that was outside of his actual life, then there was
Speaker 2: tape of it. Then that becomes like basically revenge listen
Speaker 2: that has high value and high value amongst very very
Speaker 2: influential people. So it's important stuff. And you know, we're
Speaker 2: coming off the heels of the Didty documentary that I
Speaker 2: just watch and also the Diddy trial that these are
Speaker 2: some of the alleged things that frankly he wasn't brought
Speaker 2: up on and that seems like a thing of the
Speaker 2: past with Diddy. But the idea that there's blackmail like this,
Speaker 2: and maybe more importantly, what that does for victims, because
Speaker 2: the fear would be that victims are afraid to come
Speaker 2: forward a because they don't want to be seen on videotapes,
Speaker 2: you know, like that's so a embarrassing and horrifying, also
Speaker 2: that it's incredibly dangerous and maybe the most significantly, Hey, look,
Speaker 2: nobody believes you. And it seems as though in the
Speaker 2: Epstein documentary that you made Lisa so beautifully that's kind
Speaker 2: of the lead here, right. Virginia Dufrey, the probably the
Speaker 2: loudest of the victims not very long ago, you know,
Speaker 2: sadly took her life back in April. So we'd love
Speaker 2: to hear from you kind of your experience with just
Speaker 2: you know, the victims that you've spoken to.
Speaker 7: Well, Virginia, really I think nothing would have happened to
Speaker 7: Epstein or Maxwell had it not been for her banging
Speaker 7: the drum so loud. She started in twenty fifteen with
Speaker 7: the lawsuit actually against Maxwell first because there was an
Speaker 7: opportunity there that she was not going to have with Epstein.
Speaker 7: It was more of a defamation case. But through the
Speaker 7: depositions in that case, they were able to her attorneys
Speaker 7: were able to get in all of the stuff that
Speaker 7: was happening, all the trafficking, different allegations and whatnot. So
Speaker 7: she never back down. I mean she named names, She
Speaker 7: named big names, you know, and took a lot, a
Speaker 7: lot of flack, a lot of heat.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 7: She came very forward publicly against Prince Andrew Alan Dershwoodz.
Speaker 7: There's a number of other people that you know are
Speaker 7: in some of the depositions that may not be so public,
Speaker 7: but she wanted to make your list. There's some other,
Speaker 7: you know, very prominent names and things that she you know,
Speaker 7: alleges with traffic too. And anyway, she never backed down.
Speaker 7: And I think she had a very troubled life. I
Speaker 7: don't want to speak too much on it, but she
Speaker 7: had been trapped before she even met Epstein. And and
Speaker 7: she had difficulties with her family and also with her
Speaker 7: husband until anyway, I think it all got to be
Speaker 7: too much, especially with a big lawsuit that was going
Speaker 7: on after Epstein passed away. I don't want to get
Speaker 7: into that either, but I just I just know she
Speaker 7: had personal problems and some health problems, and I feel
Speaker 7: like it just all became too much for her. And that's,
Speaker 7: you know, really sad. There's been some drug overdoses with
Speaker 7: with Epstein, you know victims, and there's certainly there. All
Speaker 7: of them are continually, you know, a work in progress.
Speaker 7: Trauma you know, presents itself in different forms. There's triggers
Speaker 7: all the time. Time This DOJ report I know, I'm
Speaker 7: speaking to a couple who I stay in touch with,
Speaker 7: is very triggering for them to hear that, and then
Speaker 7: it's really just another slap to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how could it not be. And anyone, you know,
Speaker 2: anyone even listening who's been you know, subjected to any
Speaker 2: kind of abuse, you know how hard it must be
Speaker 2: to have to actually raise your hand and say this happened.
Speaker 2: Number one, the idea that nobody will believe you, and
Speaker 2: then maybe more significantly, like we see in those that
Speaker 2: were brave enough to appear in your documentary and kind
Speaker 2: of face their monsters while in court with cameras on them,
Speaker 2: in the media pressures, et cetera. You know, they get
Speaker 2: made out to be you know, trash yet again. And
Speaker 2: you know, men like this who are grooming young women,
Speaker 2: you know, they're looking for the ones that are the
Speaker 2: most vulnerable. That makes you the best target, right, the
Speaker 2: ones that are going through it or maybe have had
Speaker 2: bad experiences in the past, and the self doubt, et cetera.
Speaker 2: I always thought it was strange though, would you just
Speaker 2: right before Virginia do freight her life back in April
Speaker 2: I think it was maybe a month prior to that,
Speaker 2: there was this incident where she was in a bus accident,
Speaker 2: and then she had posted some photographs of herself with
Speaker 2: a black and blue eye. Do you guys remember this?
Speaker 2: And then the people that were also on the bus
Speaker 2: with her that were like Taurus or something said, eh,
Speaker 2: I wasn't really much of a bus accident. It all
Speaker 2: seems so strange now again my Spidey sense and you know,
Speaker 2: everybody raised there like this might maybe sound a little
Speaker 2: out there. And Lisa, I'm pretty sure I texted you
Speaker 2: that morning of like, listen, this all seems a little fishy.
Speaker 2: No that suddenly here we are the DOJ is saying, nope,
Speaker 2: take it back. Nothing to see here. That list never existed.
Speaker 2: Oh well, the main loudest victim who's essentially the face
Speaker 2: of this Epstein trial. Oh, what a coincidence. Just a
Speaker 2: couple months ago she took her own life. Oh and
Speaker 2: there was that weird incident right before that in your
Speaker 2: heart because I know you went to the memorial. Does
Speaker 2: that track or is that just I'm chasing a ghost?
Speaker 7: You know? Unlike the Epstein suicide, I do think he
Speaker 7: sadly did take her own life because of her husband
Speaker 7: is alleged to be an abuser. You know that it's
Speaker 7: not untypical for people to kind of land in the
Speaker 7: hands of someone. She's been married to for a very
Speaker 7: long time, but allegedly he was abused towards her, and
Speaker 7: he took her children away, and I think that became
Speaker 7: too much for her, And I don know, I don't.
Speaker 7: I don't want to comment on the whole bus thing
Speaker 7: because I think there it was more of a personal
Speaker 7: thing that was going on with her and her husband
Speaker 7: that understand had to deal with that, and it's nobody's you.
Speaker 2: Know, nobody's business, so that it is kind of just
Speaker 2: a it's very sad, and our hearts would go out
Speaker 2: to her. I mean, it was very brave for her
Speaker 2: to speak up, and our hope is that victims continue
Speaker 2: to do so because it's really hard to get justice
Speaker 2: out there.
Speaker 7: It isn't Sometimes I will just want to point out that,
Speaker 7: you know, over time, memories change or things come out
Speaker 7: that you you know, as we know, you block things
Speaker 7: out and protect any of these things you do, and
Speaker 7: sometimes these and any stories are they're not stories, but
Speaker 7: these incidents happened a long time ago, decades for some people,
Speaker 7: so you know, details might be a little sketchy, or
Speaker 7: they forgot something, or they told the story just a
Speaker 7: slightly different. At the core, trafficking is trafficking, and they
Speaker 7: were were trafficked, whether it was on this date or
Speaker 7: that date, or they were this age in three months,
Speaker 7: in this age in two months. But at the core,
Speaker 7: you know, we have to listen to victims and and
Speaker 7: you know and believe them, you know, for for at
Speaker 7: the heart of what they're saying is true. And I
Speaker 7: think unfortunately in this case, in particular, it was very
Speaker 7: difficult because of the power dynamic was so skew and
Speaker 7: these you know, wealthy, mostly white powerful men you know,
Speaker 7: all held so much over their heads, right right, Oh my.
Speaker 2: Gosh, yeah, like having you hear Lisa. First of all,
Speaker 2: thank you. I know we kind of kept you so
Speaker 2: much longer than maybe you anticipated. But you know, these
Speaker 2: next couple of days, there's been some you know, new
Speaker 2: developments in the news even right now, so all of
Speaker 2: this is really significant context to the idea of hey,
Speaker 2: like you know, we actually as we're talking about this,
Speaker 2: we have to talk back about it right now. Hi.
Speaker 9: So, yes, I have a question.
Speaker 5: If we know some of the victims, why can't we
Speaker 5: just go to the victims directly and ask them to
Speaker 5: self report who their perpetrator was and get the list
Speaker 5: that way instead of waiting for the Department of Justice
Speaker 5: to release this list if it exists. Thanks so much.
Speaker 2: What a great question, great, great, great question. Thank you
Speaker 2: for that, Lisa.
Speaker 7: What do you say to that, Well, she's saying she'd
Speaker 7: get this straight. She knows some of the victims, And
Speaker 7: if she knows some of the victims, why don't they
Speaker 7: self report who the list is?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Like meaning we're all like waiting for the DOJ
Speaker 2: to release it, and it's like, oh, the FBI the
Speaker 2: list of redacted list. But if we know the list
Speaker 2: of victims and those victims know who their perpetrators were,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 7: Well they do and they don't. I think I think, yeah, well,
Speaker 7: I think some people have told people who they were
Speaker 7: who they felt comfortable saying. But some people are afraid
Speaker 7: to mention these powerful people's names because they were threatened.
Speaker 7: Some find NDA's and see that scene successfully back in
Speaker 7: you know, a long time ago, somewhat successfully there were
Speaker 7: conditions on some.
Speaker 9: Of the shoots.
Speaker 7: But I think they're afraid. And again, I don't think
Speaker 7: their list might be one person, and I you know
Speaker 7: a lot of times they weren't. You know, not everybody
Speaker 7: was a famous person either. There were just a lot
Speaker 7: of john you know, they might still have been wealthy,
Speaker 7: but maybe they're not, you know, CEO, you know, presidential whatever,
Speaker 7: you know, famous. Yeah, saying is like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like even though I'll say it because Bill Gates's
Speaker 2: wife has said it anywhere up down in sideways that
Speaker 2: you know the reason that she claims that she divorced
Speaker 2: Bill Gates and again allegedly, allegedly allegedly is because of
Speaker 2: his very close connection to Epstein and his constantly going
Speaker 2: to the island, like she has said that everywhere. So
Speaker 2: you know, these are big names. Again, we don't know
Speaker 2: if that's accurate. What happens behind closed doors, who knows.
Speaker 2: But like again, these are very people who are influencing
Speaker 2: our world in a very meaningful way. You know. The
Speaker 2: idea that they're coming together and that perhaps there's blackmail
Speaker 2: being used at times when there are very big world
Speaker 2: decisions being made is very unsettling. So it's important for
Speaker 2: it's important for us to get some answers. So what
Speaker 2: do you think is going to happen in the in
Speaker 2: the in the coming days. We have only two minutes left,
Speaker 2: so the the briefest answer to what happens tomorrow in
Speaker 2: the news, what are we waking up to?
Speaker 9: Oh?
Speaker 7: Good, well, I wonder if I mean, you know, there
Speaker 7: was this little fat tiff between you know, Pambondi, the
Speaker 7: Attorney General and then the deputy FBI director on Friday,
Speaker 7: who's upset that he feels like he didn't handle things properly.
Speaker 7: Dan's on Gino. You know they I guess there was
Speaker 7: a risk and all out yelling and screaming war so
Speaker 7: he didn't show actually didn't happen on Friday. He didn't
Speaker 7: show up to work on Friday and said he was
Speaker 7: thinking about quitting. Uh, so it happened a couple of
Speaker 7: days prior to that. But he thinks, you know, she
Speaker 7: she made a mess of it. The DJ made a
Speaker 7: mess of it, and you know it's I don't necessarily
Speaker 7: think it's all her fault. And she's in a position
Speaker 7: where she is just there almost like as an acting.
Speaker 4: Flack.
Speaker 7: Really she just has to do and say whatever you know,
Speaker 7: her boss is saying, no matter how high up, whether
Speaker 7: it's from Trump himself or just below, she just has
Speaker 7: to do what they say. So I think she kind
Speaker 7: of got caught in the middle, uh and cotied and
Speaker 7: and uh maybe yeah, she didn't handle it great. But
Speaker 7: I also think she was put in a really precarious position.
Speaker 7: So I think that'll be interesting to see if it
Speaker 7: causes a big shakeup, because I don't with the one
Speaker 7: quick setter. And what's really interesting though, is that I
Speaker 7: think before Dan Bongino got his job at the FBI,
Speaker 7: and the same with the FBI director cash to tell Na,
Speaker 7: Thank you.
Speaker 4: So much for joining us today.
Speaker 3: Your dedication to this case and getting justice for the
Speaker 3: victims is something we should all be living up to.
Speaker 3: Those interested in seeing Lisa's work and learning more about
Speaker 3: the Epstein and Maxwell case watch her incredible documentaries on
Speaker 3: Netflix stay right here True Crime Tonight, where we're talking
Speaker 3: true crime all the time.
Speaker 2: Our very favorite forensics expert, host of Body Bags, Joseph
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan joins us again. We're talking Epstein, So he's
Speaker 2: going to weigh in on was he killed or did
Speaker 2: he kill himself? So Courtney Armstrong, you want to fill
Speaker 2: us in a little bit on the.
Speaker 6: Backstory, Absolutely so, Jeffrey Epstein, who has been EveryWare in
Speaker 6: the news. A newly released FBI and Apartment of Justice
Speaker 6: memo is reaffirmed Epstein died by suicide in twenty nineteen
Speaker 6: and also that no client list ever existed, so.
Speaker 4: That has been released.
Speaker 6: This has sparked calls for Pam Bondi's replacement, she's the
Speaker 6: Attorney General. The controversy has gone deeper. There has been
Speaker 6: the emergence of a wild missing minute off of the
Speaker 6: prison CCTV Close caption TV footage which alleged to show
Speaker 6: outside of Jeffrey Epstein's cell, and Bondi explains that this
Speaker 6: was due to quote, outdated equipment, but it doesn't make
Speaker 6: any sense, and then she further doubled down on this
Speaker 6: wildly missing minute.
Speaker 4: Well, in the metadata, yeah, it shows us that it's
Speaker 4: been edited.
Speaker 3: It's two videos spliced together, and the aspect ratio changes
Speaker 3: in this video like it it gets bigger, it's it's
Speaker 3: it's pretty wild.
Speaker 6: Actually, well, according to the Attorney General, do not believe
Speaker 6: your lie in eyes because the words out of her
Speaker 6: mouth were apparently in this prison, every time it gets
Speaker 6: almost near midnight.
Speaker 4: We lose a minute of tape.
Speaker 6: So anyway, that is what has been recently, just in
Speaker 6: the past couple of days given out, which all leads
Speaker 6: us to forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan being here to
Speaker 6: talk about the suicide question mark. Joseph Scott Morgan, host
Speaker 6: of the wildly successful podcast Body Bags.
Speaker 9: How are you I'm doing well? How are you guys doing.
Speaker 4: Better now that you're here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't see Joseph right now. Joseph Scott Morgan,
Speaker 2: forensics expert of greatness, is as tan as they get.
Speaker 4: It looks like he just got off the yacht.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you just roll straight from Malibu right to
Speaker 2: Fantasy Island also known as.
Speaker 9: No you know? And I have for INDs that accusing
Speaker 9: you lay in the tanning bed and I'm like, no,
Speaker 9: I really don't. I just I've got a boat. I
Speaker 9: just got out of my boat when I can. It's
Speaker 9: my therapy.
Speaker 2: It's right at summer, A lot better than the.
Speaker 9: People that I'm doing, a lot better than the staff
Speaker 9: that the Justice Department are doing right now. And hearing
Speaker 9: don't see that, and you know, so I don't know. Look,
Speaker 9: I've been going around around about Estein for all these
Speaker 9: years now, since it came out of I first covered this.
Speaker 9: I'll never forget. It was on a Sunday morning. I
Speaker 9: was live on air in Atlanta on HLN and there
Speaker 9: it began. And I haven't quit since then. And so
Speaker 9: I have never help that his injuries were consistent with
Speaker 9: the suicide. It's just there are too many inconsistencies. And
Speaker 9: it's one of the most facile arguments I've heard, I
Speaker 9: think in forensics in some time to try to get
Speaker 9: us to buy into that. People are tired of being
Speaker 9: treated like we're stupid and you know and just you
Speaker 9: know when you look at the injuries that he sustained,
Speaker 9: these injuries involve what's in the big question here is
Speaker 9: the highwaid bone, which for you guys that don't know,
Speaker 9: the hyoid bone. If you go superior anatomically, if you'll
Speaker 9: find the cartilage and centered your throat and go up
Speaker 9: like in mails where the Adams apple is really protuberant,
Speaker 9: goes superior to that, that's where the highwaid is. And
Speaker 9: it shaped some people say it's shaped like a bird.
Speaker 9: Some people will use the term horsehoe. It's the only
Speaker 9: non articulating bone in human body, and what that means
Speaker 9: is that it doesn't communicate with any other bones. Its
Speaker 9: sole purpose is to anchor the tongue in the back
Speaker 9: of the throat, the only reason it's there. In the
Speaker 9: course of my career, and again I've only got one
Speaker 9: little slice, okay, of my career, my experiences, I have
Speaker 9: only seen one case where the highwid was fractured, and
Speaker 9: it was non homicidally related, and it was a car
Speaker 9: crash where God went over a three story high off
Speaker 9: ramp on itent and hit the top of the steering
Speaker 9: wheel and like a nineteen sixty eight Plantiac at the
Speaker 9: twelve o'clock position hit him in the throat, his highway.
Speaker 9: Epstein's the greater horn. It's got two horns, the greater
Speaker 9: well'scot four actually the greater and the lesser corner, and
Speaker 9: they're actually horns. The one on the right side is
Speaker 9: the one that is fractured. And in addition to that,
Speaker 9: what makes it even more screwy is the fact that
Speaker 9: the cartilage in the layernix is fractured as well. It's
Speaker 9: not simply the highwaid. So you've got several things at
Speaker 9: work here. Some people have talked about, well, at the
Speaker 9: hues at it could have been ossified and it would
Speaker 9: not have taken as much pressure, you know, with a
Speaker 9: ligature if he had to sing tied around his neck,
Speaker 9: and that you know, it essentially injured this area in
Speaker 9: his neck. And I just I don't buy it. I
Speaker 9: don't buy it, you know. I think even in judicial hanges,
Speaker 9: you know where you know, you have these state sanctioned
Speaker 9: hanes where people will fall from a great height and
Speaker 9: it's calculated. You generally don't get fractured hyoids. It's so
Speaker 9: high up in the throat, you have to reach so
Speaker 9: high to do it that it's I'm not going to
Speaker 9: say it's completely implausible, but if I were a betting man,
Speaker 9: I would listen more towards something other than suicide.
Speaker 4: Well, especially where the ligature mark is right. It's lower
Speaker 4: on his neck than it than it.
Speaker 9: Is it is. And here's another thing that will really
Speaker 9: blow people's hairback about the ligature mark and listen. This
Speaker 9: stuff is all available online. CBS published this in their
Speaker 9: sixty Minutes Report from so I think it's back in
Speaker 9: eighteen or whenever it was. If you look at the
Speaker 9: profile picture and when I say not like profile on
Speaker 9: you know, social media, I'm talking about like in profile
Speaker 9: sad shot.
Speaker 4: I'm looking at it right now.
Speaker 9: There's an image of Epstein laying laying flat on his
Speaker 9: back in a soup time position, and you can see
Speaker 9: the abraided area that runs from the front of the
Speaker 9: neck all the way to the back. Look at that
Speaker 9: very closely, as you can see that mark does not
Speaker 9: go upwards. There's something in in in hangings that we
Speaker 9: look for in forensics that's referred to as tinting feature
Speaker 9: spelled T E N T I n G not like
Speaker 9: T I like tinting in a window tinting like a
Speaker 9: pup tint, So what you're looking at is the pup
Speaker 9: tint going up in the air. It doesn't make sense,
Speaker 9: it's right, Yeah, it runs parallel to the shoulder. Another
Speaker 9: thing also that has that has bothered me about this.
Speaker 9: He's got this pretty significant contusion at the at the
Speaker 9: on the postier aspect of his neck. It's on the backside,
Speaker 9: so the posterior involving like the shoulder right there, there's
Speaker 9: you know, I don't know if it looks like I
Speaker 9: don't have an exact measurement because I didn't I can't
Speaker 9: remember if there's a scale on it, but approximation out there,
Speaker 9: it looks like it's about too maybe two inches in
Speaker 9: the greatest link by maybe about an inch and a
Speaker 9: quarter and w what what's up with that? Because that's
Speaker 9: the contusion. You know what that means. That means that
Speaker 9: happened in live So it's not like a.
Speaker 4: Post of some kind.
Speaker 9: Yeah maybe I mean perfect.
Speaker 4: Folks who haven't seen it.
Speaker 3: The ligature mark to me, Joseph, and I'm a leman,
Speaker 3: Joseph's the expert. But to me, it looks like if
Speaker 3: if this was his cause of death, like somebody from
Speaker 3: behind him, because it goes straight across. There's not there's
Speaker 3: no that tinting that you were talking about, like an assassin,
Speaker 3: like an assassin right like.
Speaker 2: Coming up.
Speaker 9: Right, yeah, groat or grot on, you know where you
Speaker 9: hail for. But yeah, it kind of looks that way.
Speaker 9: And the other thing is is that, you know the
Speaker 9: the jailer's actually said, whatever the hell they call himself
Speaker 9: jailer's correction, I don't care whatever you know they said.
Speaker 9: The guy that discovered the body said, I cut the
Speaker 9: noose off. Well, there was two ligatures, two tied nooses
Speaker 9: on the floor in his cell, which, by the way,
Speaker 9: the cell is like a pig style. It looks like
Speaker 9: a hog waller. When you look at this thing, this
Speaker 9: shredded material all over the wear, you know, all over
Speaker 9: the place. You know, you always imagine, you know, shawshank
Speaker 9: where the things are like really neat. It looks like
Speaker 9: he's living. It looks like squalid conditions, mattresses on the floor,
Speaker 9: there's pill bottles everywhere. It's chaos in there. If he
Speaker 9: fell from a height to generate that kind of injury
Speaker 9: on his neck, I don't think that there's sufficient there's
Speaker 9: not enough altitude for him to have jumped from, even
Speaker 9: if you think that he's perched from the top bunk,
Speaker 9: which by the way, doesn't have a mattress on it,
Speaker 9: jumped off of that and then fell to the floor
Speaker 9: and snapped his neck or broke his hyoid, not snapped
Speaker 9: his neck the vertebra or intact. It just doesn't. And
Speaker 9: plus the material that you're talking about, both of those
Speaker 9: those nooses quote unquote I'm using air quotes right now,
Speaker 9: they show no evidence of tool marks on them where
Speaker 9: they have quote unquote been cut. And this also factors
Speaker 9: into the corrections officers being less than forthcoming or truthful
Speaker 9: as well, because you got this person that discovers them
Speaker 9: and says, yeah, you know, I cut it off of it. Well,
Speaker 9: are you referring to these nooses that were pre tied,
Speaker 9: that were laying on the floor. Is that what you're
Speaker 9: talking about, because there's no evidence of that as far
Speaker 9: as them being trimmed with a knife in any way.
Speaker 6: Interesting, So do you think when you said that the
Speaker 6: and we don't have a ton of time, but of
Speaker 6: course you will be joining us after, But so do
Speaker 6: you think there is something off or odd about what
Speaker 6: the correctional officers were saying, or that it didn't It
Speaker 6: sounds like it didn't quite match up to the pictures.
Speaker 6: If there's no cut marks on if I'm understanding you,
Speaker 6: if there's no cut marks on any of the fabric,
Speaker 6: then what were they cutting?
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that that would be my big question.
Speaker 9: If I was sitting across the table from them in
Speaker 9: an interview and I had that evidence and they had
Speaker 9: made that statement, I'd say, look, I want to revisit
Speaker 9: your statement here, because what you're saying doesn't necessarily match
Speaker 9: up with the physical evidence that we found at scene.
Speaker 9: And that's a big piece of evidence because you know, listen,
Speaker 9: the people that arrive on scene in a death investigation,
Speaker 9: the first people that are eyes on the dead body
Speaker 9: are your most crucial witnesses as far as understanding the
Speaker 9: context of the body to the scene, because remember, he
Speaker 9: would us removed from that cell and taken to the
Speaker 9: hospital the emmy investigator, which they took pictures they were
Speaker 9: out there. They didn't see his body at the scene.
Speaker 9: They saw his body in the er.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 6: Oh interesting, Well, listen, stick around. We have a lot
Speaker 6: more we're going to be digging into, and we are
Speaker 6: lucky enough to be doing it with forensic expert Joseph
Speaker 6: Scott Morgan. Listen, we have questions for him. I'm sure
Speaker 6: you do too. Give us a call. Eighty eight three
Speaker 6: to one Crime. We are talking Jeffrey Ebstein. We are
Speaker 6: talking forensics, and we are talking really whatever you want
Speaker 6: to speak about crime wise. If you give us a call,
Speaker 6: keep it here. True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
Speaker 2: true crime all the time, and we have Joseph Scott Morgan,
Speaker 2: our very own forensics expert who is joining us today. Listen,
Speaker 2: very tan and really blowing our minds about the forensics
Speaker 2: surrounding the Jeffrey Epstein bluruhaha, that's everywhere at this exact moment,
Speaker 2: you know, really the question being, you know that the
Speaker 2: company line has always been that he committed suicide in
Speaker 2: his jail cell. And now that you know, Joseph, you're
Speaker 2: looking at the forensics. There's nobody in the world we
Speaker 2: trust more than you. You know this stuff. You've done
Speaker 2: so many of these cases countless. Frankly, Number one, we
Speaker 2: want to hear more. Number two, like we just want answers,
Speaker 2: like girl hundreds of girls allegedly are being trafficked. And
Speaker 2: this again is not a political thing. We're not trying
Speaker 2: to point fingers, and it's just like it's just stinks
Speaker 2: that we can't get answers and justice for these young women.
Speaker 2: You know, we know that's true. So I digress. We
Speaker 2: have a talkback right now, so we'll go to that first.
Speaker 9: What's up to you, cron tonight?
Speaker 2: I just need to know in each of your opinions,
Speaker 2: yes or no, did Epstein kill himself? This is body
Speaker 2: and I'm going to say no, it's Stephanie, and I'm
Speaker 2: going to say.
Speaker 4: No, Courtney, and I'm unclear.
Speaker 3: Oh safe, Joseph, what's your answer, Joseph. Scott Morgan, By
Speaker 3: the way, what's your answer, Joseph, Based.
Speaker 9: Upon the scientific evidence and cases essen in the past,
Speaker 9: this is not consistent with the suicide, and like.
Speaker 2: What that means, we don't know who. We're not pointing
Speaker 2: a finger, we're not suggesting that somebody came down from
Speaker 2: a helicopter for me in the dead and night and
Speaker 2: like assigning who. But it just sort of stinks that
Speaker 2: it's not being discussed in its full transparency so that
Speaker 2: you know, we can all weigh in and even if
Speaker 2: we're wrong, you know, in court Ney Armstrong, you're really
Speaker 2: quite right. How could it be clear? It's impossible for
Speaker 2: it to be clear because we've heard so many different things,
Speaker 2: right so I hear you.
Speaker 6: We have heard so many things, and I don't know
Speaker 6: I was. I was really on the fence before this,
Speaker 6: you know, statement of there is no client list when
Speaker 6: we said it, of there the metadata of the video
Speaker 6: that actually is inclining me way more towards something absolutely
Speaker 6: nefarious happened. It does not make sense. I mean, it
Speaker 6: doesn't just reek of a cover up. I mean will
Speaker 6: be able soon to say as fact it is from
Speaker 6: whom I don't know.
Speaker 2: But I I looked at metadata all my life, and
Speaker 2: you know, metadata cop BYDK metadata doesn't lie and it doesn't.
Speaker 4: Tell the official story that we're being told by the government.
Speaker 2: And that plus what Joseph has said about the forensics,
Speaker 2: because I believe in science, That's what I believe in.
Speaker 3: That's my higher power, and I just I have to
Speaker 3: trust the science behind this, and that's that he did
Speaker 3: not kill himself.
Speaker 9: And like even the idea, no, I was just gonna say,
Speaker 9: I take exception, you know, I'd mentioned this off air,
Speaker 9: you know, I take exception to people that and the
Speaker 9: news media has run with this because I think that
Speaker 9: they're so used to doing it where they throw it
Speaker 9: the term conspiracy theory. You know, we're not talking about
Speaker 9: little green men. You know, we're not here on you know, uh,
Speaker 9: you know, Coast to coast after dark or whatever. We're
Speaker 9: we're not talking about that where you know, we're we
Speaker 9: are talking about provable scientific findings and some things just
Speaker 9: don't marry up. And it's not a conspiracy theory to
Speaker 9: ask science based questions and to expect reasonable answers, you know, don't.
Speaker 9: And and the thing about it is, I think for
Speaker 9: so long, what's so frustrating about this is that everybody's
Speaker 9: been led by the nose around about this whole thing.
Speaker 9: And now they're saying, you know, ignore the man behind
Speaker 9: the curtain now. And it's it's very frustrating. I can
Speaker 9: understand why. Uh, it's bubbling over nationwide. It's not just
Speaker 9: one little group of people, and it crosses the political aisles.
Speaker 9: People are frustrated with this very much so, and it's
Speaker 9: it's it's very very frustrating because those of us that
Speaker 9: work in certain fields and we are counted on for
Speaker 9: our scientific reliability. It leads down these really dangerous paths
Speaker 9: where people begin to question scientific validity about other things
Speaker 9: that you're involved in. It's not just the Epstein kickure.
Speaker 9: It leads out right, that's problematic.
Speaker 4: That's problematic because it.
Speaker 3: Leads over to other issues and people stop believing in
Speaker 3: the science and start believing rhetoric. Right, And that's not
Speaker 3: a good place.
Speaker 2: And it's so funny you bring that up, Joseph, because listen,
Speaker 2: we live in a divided time, right, there's there's there's
Speaker 2: so many sides right now, and everybody's you know, doubling down.
Speaker 2: I'm right, I'm right. You know, it seems as though
Speaker 2: one thing we can collectively all agree on, despite your politics,
Speaker 2: your religion, your your finances. Like everybody wants answers because
Speaker 2: we all feel a little gas lit by this. And
Speaker 2: it's not a one person stop, right, Like one person
Speaker 2: being excused from their job doesn't change the bigger picture
Speaker 2: of this seeming there's something fishy, right, and we're in
Speaker 2: the there's something fishy business. And again we're not here
Speaker 2: to say we have answers that we don't, but I
Speaker 2: you know, I was really hoping that even by tonight
Speaker 2: by air, we would have more clarity given to us.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't appear that's coming.
Speaker 9: No, I don't know that that it is. I wouldn't
Speaker 9: hold my breath. We've been holding our breath for a while.
Speaker 9: And this is this is the you know, kind of
Speaker 9: the ultimate screw you relative to you know what everybody's
Speaker 9: kind of been waiting on and anticipating. Uh, very frustrated
Speaker 9: and to another point too, And I know this is
Speaker 9: something we can all agree on, is that we don't
Speaker 9: like to see children abused, thank you. Exactly about it
Speaker 9: is they they've become upon even furthermore than they were before.
Speaker 9: And I've heard I've heard people try to adjust the ages. Now.
Speaker 9: I've heard that that line of law in the news
Speaker 9: media where they said, oh well, they were not underage,
Speaker 9: they were just really young. And I've heard that stated
Speaker 9: a couple of times, and I take exception with that,
Speaker 9: particularly when you're hearing things these wild stories about girls
Speaker 9: being brought in from Eastern Europe to service whoever this
Speaker 9: cadret of people is. My question is is that they're
Speaker 9: coming in from Eastern Europe? Where did they go exactly
Speaker 9: where you know after they were used? Where did they go?
Speaker 9: Where they just cut loose on the streets at Florida
Speaker 9: or in Manhattan, or did they place them back on
Speaker 9: a plane and take them back if we follow this
Speaker 9: line of logic back to Eastern Europe, I don't know.
Speaker 9: I would think that many of those girls have a
Speaker 9: story to tell. I would think that there would be
Speaker 9: an ambitious journalist out there that would want to track
Speaker 9: some of these girls down and have conversations with them.
Speaker 9: I don't know that. And there's so many of them allegedly,
Speaker 9: it would seem as though you could find one. Where
Speaker 9: are they? I want to know there's story?
Speaker 6: Well, and Lisa Bryant who was on earlier. It's not
Speaker 6: particularly the women slash girls you're referring to Joseph, but
Speaker 6: she had a Lisa Bryant had really compelling information from
Speaker 6: speaking with the victims who participated in her documentaries Filthy
Speaker 6: rich On, Jeffrey Ebstein and Guleen Maxwell.
Speaker 2: But it was yeah, what did happen?
Speaker 6: And there's mention of their having their passports taken and
Speaker 6: these girls, even if they were of age, the sex
Speaker 6: trafficking still happened. You are still taken and you were
Speaker 6: a lured with the promise of in some cases a
Speaker 6: summer camp to help further your potential to get into college.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's really what a.
Speaker 2: Bunch of saying that was done.
Speaker 9: My documentary by the way, absolutely donamite that Lisa, that
Speaker 9: Lisa put together. Wat and I watched it, you know,
Speaker 9: a couple of years back, and we were just, you know,
Speaker 9: just astounded by it. It was beautifully found and it
Speaker 9: was so the clarity on it was fantastic.
Speaker 4: I have to get I have to watch it. I
Speaker 4: have to be honest.
Speaker 3: I never paid attention to the Epstein stuff because it
Speaker 3: was so political and it was like, I just you know,
Speaker 3: but now I'm sad, Like I am sad for this.
Speaker 3: I am into it now and I'm I'm going to
Speaker 3: watch it when we're done here.
Speaker 2: And it makes us mad, you know. And Joseph to
Speaker 2: your point, everybody on you know, in this conversation, right
Speaker 2: Joseph you at the leader, by the way, host of
Speaker 2: body Bags. If you if you haven't listened to the podcast,
Speaker 2: please do. It's you know, so well done. You know,
Speaker 2: it's all victim forward, right, So you know at a
Speaker 2: time that it's increasingly difficult to be able to actually
Speaker 2: get victims to come forward. You know, we're seeing that
Speaker 2: just on the heels of the ditty case, you know,
Speaker 2: get and this, that and another thing. It's hard out there,
Speaker 2: so you know, things like this only make it worse.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to hold out some hope that when
Speaker 2: we all wake up in the morning tomorrow, we turn
Speaker 2: the news on and there'll be some developments. Because nobody
Speaker 2: even said that they're needed to be a client list,
Speaker 2: like we were told there was an Air Quotes client list.
Speaker 2: Like it's just too confusing.
Speaker 4: Joseph, I have a question about the photos. That's senty minutes.
Speaker 3: There's a photo of his back in the in the
Speaker 3: I'm gonna describe it the back, it looks like there's
Speaker 3: blood pulling in areas of his back. Is that what
Speaker 3: that is?
Speaker 1: It?
Speaker 4: Is that what you would expect to see? And what
Speaker 4: does that tell you? How wal Yeah, I'm asking question.
Speaker 9: No, no, no, no, that's fine, and we need to
Speaker 9: ask questions. Yeah, that's post worm liviidity, and that means
Speaker 9: that if it's posterior, and the terms are kind of confusing,
Speaker 9: post mortem lividity is posterior in this case, which means
Speaker 9: on the backside. So gravity if you're laying face up,
Speaker 9: let's just say face up, blood is going, it's a liquid,
Speaker 9: it's going to see the lowest point of gravity. And
Speaker 9: so we'll go there and there is of a time
Speaker 9: measurement that we do for that. Now to your point,
Speaker 9: when we have hangings, suspension hanging, and it can be
Speaker 9: a partial we have suspension hangings, which is the classic
Speaker 9: thing where somebody's hanging from a raptor and just hanging
Speaker 9: in the air. Then you have partial support or partial
Speaker 9: suspension where feet or knees are touching the ground. Did
Speaker 9: you know that you'll actually have post moral avidity that
Speaker 9: will set in in the ankles and in the knees,
Speaker 9: and the knees and the ankles will swell because the
Speaker 9: engorgement of gravity pulling down the blood. And I would
Speaker 9: be interested to see the actual autopsy photographs to understand that,
Speaker 9: because that will give you a lot of information about positionality.
Speaker 9: When you're seeing those images of his body and you're
Speaker 9: looking at the posterior, that's probably a shot that was
Speaker 9: taken in the morgue. He's already been in a cooler way,
Speaker 9: face face up, and a cooler for a period of time,
Speaker 9: so lividity will settle. That's why you have to make
Speaker 9: these judgments at the scene as soon as you can,
Speaker 9: because all of the data is wrecked after you have
Speaker 9: these time these markers out in tom you get beyond
Speaker 9: those markers and the data, your data points are blown
Speaker 9: to hell at that point.
Speaker 3: So these were taken hours later after he sat in
Speaker 3: the cooler, probably, so these weren't like Onseen photographs that
Speaker 3: were looking.
Speaker 9: At No, those were not on scene he was. He was.
Speaker 9: As a matter fact, you look at one of those images,
Speaker 9: you can see the paddle mark on his chest where
Speaker 9: they try to do resuscitation. Yes, it's right, you can't.
Speaker 9: It's right over stern them. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Interesting.
Speaker 3: You're listening to True Crime tonight, where we talk true
Speaker 3: crime all the time, and we're right in the middle
Speaker 3: of talking with Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert on the
Speaker 3: alleged suicide of Jeffrey Epstein Court.
Speaker 2: You had you had a good question.
Speaker 6: Yes, okay, we do not have a lot of time,
Speaker 6: but i have a lot of need to know the answer.
Speaker 6: So I've been digging through all this information as we're talking,
Speaker 6: flipping through papers. Among injuries that were found on Epstein
Speaker 6: during the autopsy, contusions on both of his wrists and abrasion,
Speaker 6: a bruise on his left forearm, and quote deep muscle
Speaker 6: hemorrhaging in his left shoulder muscle. So I'm a lay person,
Speaker 6: but is that consistent with suicidal hanging?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 4: No, no period?
Speaker 9: Really and real quickly. I hope that they dissected each
Speaker 9: one of those injuries because we can actually age those injuries.
Speaker 9: We can say if they're resolving or not. I'm hoping
Speaker 9: they did, you know, to try to again contextuals.
Speaker 4: Can we not get the autopsy report?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 4: Can is this foiable? I'm sure somebody has already.
Speaker 2: I don't think it is.
Speaker 9: Really.
Speaker 2: I want to say that for fact though, because I
Speaker 2: don't think that it is.
Speaker 4: Okay, well then we can foil it.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna look into it, because that's crazy,
Speaker 2: like not injury, pick your poison, choose your dad, choose
Speaker 2: your night.
Speaker 4: My Funday Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
Speaker 2: Yeah, starting, we're doing a twenty four hour show. It's
Speaker 2: a marathon and kids, we're just getting started. It's the
Speaker 2: forensics off and you know, listen it's complicated stuff. Again,
Speaker 2: I'm going to hold out hope that we have some
Speaker 2: clarity is starting tomorrow. I'm hoping that someone out there
Speaker 2: can move the needle, you know, for anyone connected to
Speaker 2: this case, victims included. You know, our hearts genuinely are
Speaker 2: with you, and we hope this doesn't discourage other victims
Speaker 2: from from coming forward and speaking up because you know,
Speaker 2: without your voice, you know, silence changes nothing, right, So
Speaker 2: what a night I feel. Also, Lisa Bryant, thank you
Speaker 2: for joining us for this. You know again, this one's
Speaker 2: knocking on doors and you know, getting on yachts to
Speaker 2: go to islands to get herself not killed, thank god.
Speaker 2: But that's pretty gutsy stuff, and you know, hats off
Speaker 2: in my humble opinion, as your friend and colleague, let's
Speaker 2: knock it off with all that because we want you
Speaker 2: safe and sound. But again, Lisa will be joining us
Speaker 2: hopefully very soon too, to talk through any of these
Speaker 2: new developments as they unfold, and we got a big
Speaker 2: week ahead. So Joseph, you've been following so many cases
Speaker 2: that we didn't even get to touch on tonight. The
Speaker 2: Menanda's brothers too. We want your feedback on that one,
Speaker 2: because there's a hearing coming up on that. I don't know,
Speaker 2: we'll pick your poison anyone.
Speaker 3: I just I just I just can't believe I didn't
Speaker 3: know all this stuff about you know that.
Speaker 4: I'm literally in kind of stunned.
Speaker 3: I've been I've been kind of sitting here all night
Speaker 3: just kind of just like staring at Joseph talk and
Speaker 3: listening to Lisa and just been transfixed because there's just
Speaker 3: so many inconsistencies that I never paid attention to.
Speaker 4: Just I just didn't care about this case. I just didn't.
Speaker 4: But man, I am really I'm really shocked.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's shocking.
Speaker 4: It is shocking, and I.
Speaker 3: Think, yeah, I'm kind of just kind of speechless, and
Speaker 3: I feel kind of silly.
Speaker 2: Silly, You're the least silly person. You're still silly for not.
Speaker 9: It's confusing. It's confusing because it's so voluminous, so very voluminous,
Speaker 9: and it has been made unnecessarily confusing and in some
Speaker 9: monds intentionally that way. So and it shouldn't be. It
Speaker 9: shouldn't be. This is pretty straightforward.
Speaker 2: Stuff, right, It's black and white, but it's not apparently well,
Speaker 2: just like that. Another Sunday night comes to a close.
Speaker 2: Listen up, everybody. We're wishing everybody a great start to
Speaker 2: their week, happy Monday to be, so let's go and
Speaker 2: you know, join forces. And also our hearts are with
Speaker 2: Texas as always, so sending our love and prayers there.
Speaker 2: It's been a great night, Thanks everybody. This is true
Speaker 2: crime tonight. Good night, Stay safe.