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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Guess what, We're

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Speaker 2: talking True crime all the time. It's Sunday, July thirteenth,

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Speaker 2: and we've got a stack knight of headlines. So listen.

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Speaker 2: This Epstein thing has blown up across the world and

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Speaker 2: we want some answers. What could possibly be the reason

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Speaker 2: for that tape to be actually modified? So we're going

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Speaker 2: to get into that in a very big way. What

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Speaker 2: does it mean? We do have some insight sourcing just

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Speaker 2: into the Epstein world. Lisa Bryant, who is the executive

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Speaker 2: producer and director of the Netflix documentary Filthy Rich, which

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Speaker 2: really focuses on the Epstein days and the victims, etc.

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Speaker 2: As well as Gilaine Maxwell, She's going to be joining

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Speaker 2: us to kind of dig in and we'll hear her

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Speaker 2: opinions about what all of this could or couldn't mean. Also,

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Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert in host of Bodybags, is

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Speaker 2: also going to be joining us to break down suicide

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Speaker 2: or did Jeffrey Epstein get killed or was he killed intentionally?

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Speaker 2: Always the age old question. And also there have been

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Speaker 2: some new developments in the Menandez case, and later in

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Speaker 2: the show we're also going to be talking a bit

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Speaker 2: more about the Brian Coberger new developments and the Idaho

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Speaker 2: student murders. One of the victims mothers is speaking out

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Speaker 2: for the very first time, so we'll have more on

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Speaker 2: that as well. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head of

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Speaker 2: KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries,

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Speaker 2: and I get to do that with Courtney Armstrong, host

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Speaker 2: and also the voice of many of our podcasts, as

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Speaker 2: well as Vadi move In. You'll recognize her of course

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Speaker 2: from Don't f with Katz, the Emmy Award winning documentary

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Speaker 2: and listen. We want to hear from you, so please

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Speaker 2: jump in join the conversation. There's been a ton in

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Speaker 2: the news, so if you want to weigh in, call

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Speaker 2: us at eight eight eight three one Crime, or you

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Speaker 2: could hit us up on our socials at True Crime

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Speaker 2: Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, or at True Crime

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Speaker 2: Tonight on Facebook. So and also one last thing, I

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Speaker 2: just have to say it on behalf of all three

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Speaker 2: of us. It's been so refreshing to a get your

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Speaker 2: emails and your cases that you really want us to

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Speaker 2: focus on. We're getting them, We're hearing it. We're going

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Speaker 2: to be digging into this new development in this possible

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Speaker 2: new serial killer. So thank you. Just keep those coming.

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Speaker 2: We will be doing every single one. So please thank

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Speaker 2: you for being our true crime A little true crime crew.

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Speaker 2: I guess we should call it our family. So keep

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Speaker 2: those ideas coming. But first body, I know you're going

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Speaker 2: to hit us up with some headlines. Yeah, where do

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Speaker 2: you want to start?

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Speaker 3: While there's a big break for the Menanda's brothers, so

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Speaker 3: Eric and Lyle Menenda's the brothers at the center of

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Speaker 3: like the most infamous murder case in US history. They

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Speaker 3: just scored like a super major legal win. As they

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Speaker 3: gear up for you know, they have a hearing for parole.

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Speaker 3: They've had a lot of little lately, Okay, so they

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Speaker 3: were granted re sentencing and they got like, instead of

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Speaker 3: life without the possibility of parrol, now they have the

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Speaker 3: possibility of parole and they have that hearing in August.

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Speaker 3: I think it's late August the twenty first, and the

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Speaker 3: twenty second Well, a new court order from July eighth

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Speaker 3: is putting pressure on the state to explain why key

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Speaker 3: evidence was kept out of their trial. And this evidence

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Speaker 3: is that letter. Do you remember we had that gentleman

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Speaker 3: on that found the letter. What was his name, Robert,

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Speaker 3: Robert Robert, Yes, And this letter it was written prior

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Speaker 3: to the murders and it explains to his lyle's cousin

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Speaker 3: the molestation that they were having. And well, this letter

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Speaker 3: was excluded from court. So they filed for habeas corpus relief.

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Speaker 3: Now they have until I think they have thirty days

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Speaker 3: to respond to this letter of the prosecution, and the

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Speaker 3: judge says that they have to explain why the brother's

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Speaker 3: habeas relief should not be granted.

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Speaker 2: So if the case, yeah, like for this case specifically,

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Speaker 2: the Menanda's brothers were you know, convicted for murdering both

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Speaker 2: of their parents. This is back in the eighties, very infamous.

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Speaker 2: There's been a documentary also, the Ryan Murphy scripted series

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Speaker 2: based on them. And look they're now saying, we served

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Speaker 2: our time. This was a murder because we were being

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Speaker 2: sexually abused and that was not taken into consideration and

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Speaker 2: they've been looking to be freed, and now this is

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Speaker 2: yet another step closer for them.

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Speaker 4: Right their conviction.

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Speaker 3: If habeas corpus relief is granted, if the judge says, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: let's go ahead, and you know, get this going, their

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Speaker 3: original verdicts could be overturned, which is wild now. It

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Speaker 3: could be overturned partially, it could be overturned fully, a

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Speaker 3: new trial could be ordered, and any number of things

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Speaker 3: could happen. I'm not saying they're going to get out,

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Speaker 3: because you know, they were never convicted now, but it

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Speaker 3: does grant them relief and we'll have to see what happens. Wow,

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Speaker 3: they have thirty days to they have thirty days to respond,

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Speaker 3: so we'll see. We'll keep an eye on it, and

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Speaker 3: we're gonna we're gonna deep dive into it tomorrow too,

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Speaker 3: so stay tuned for that.

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Speaker 2: Great, great, great great, Yeah, we're also going to be

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Speaker 2: digging into those Blake Lively and and so there's a

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Speaker 2: hearing on Thursday, so we'll get to that later in

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Speaker 2: the week as well.

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Speaker 3: I saw on an X there's a like a social

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Speaker 3: media influencer I follow. She does like brand marketing and whatnot,

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Speaker 3: and she's been kind of like tweeting about this and

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Speaker 3: she got a subpoena from Google and has Blake Lily's name.

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Speaker 4: While she's freaking out, Oh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like freaking out in a bad way or in

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Speaker 2: a bad way, She's like, what what did I do?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 4: She's like, what I do?

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Speaker 2: She talked about the Queen. I guess, I guess they

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Speaker 2: have a lot of money. And it's it's the PR

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Speaker 2: machine is so real, right, I'm so interested. We should

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Speaker 2: do like an expose on public relations, would have it

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Speaker 2: behind the scenes, Like I genuinely don't know.

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Speaker 4: I don't either know that we.

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Speaker 2: Don't have it. I don't have it either on PR.

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Speaker 2: That's me, I do it. It's terrible. Yes, that's great.

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Speaker 2: Court you're you're a smiling over there. What do you

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Speaker 2: what do you want to say? New ar IM's strong?

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Speaker 6: Well, I was actually just when you said, what the PR?

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Speaker 6: You know what's doing in the land of PR. And

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Speaker 6: it seems like it's gotten much more nefarious just in

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Speaker 6: recent I mean, going back to Johnny Depp and going

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Speaker 6: back to slander like PR.

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Speaker 4: Remember that movie The Dog, Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: I certainly do.

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Speaker 4: I think it was nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 3: It's an excellent movie and it's the it's kind of

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Speaker 3: like how the PR machine can can be nefarious, right,

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Speaker 3: I mean ultimately that's kind of what it boils down to.

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Speaker 4: It's a really great movie. If you haven't seen it.

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen it.

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Speaker 4: Oh you wag the dog, the Crossmit wag the dog.

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Speaker 2: You know the saying how did you know the date

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Speaker 2: it was released? Top of it?

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Speaker 6: Because I could be I could be wrong, but I'm

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Speaker 6: pretty sure I was in Australia when it happened and

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Speaker 6: I was like, wow, you really liked that movie. But

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Speaker 6: what the crux is is there's these politicians and the

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Speaker 6: PR and the politicians in some sort of hot water

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Speaker 6: I don't recall what, and it's like, well, you want

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Speaker 6: attention off of you, let's create a war, and a

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Speaker 6: PR machine creates it.

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Speaker 2: It's it's a parody. It's oh, check that out. Is

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Speaker 2: it possible?

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Speaker 1: Though?

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Speaker 2: We're just seeing more of it because of social media,

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Speaker 2: and I think because maybe it's always been nefarious in there,

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Speaker 2: but we just are kind of getting a little smarter

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Speaker 2: to it now.

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Speaker 6: I think it's quicker too. Everything used to there used

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Speaker 6: to actually be news cycles.

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Speaker 3: Right, this is a twenty four hour news cycle now right, like, yes,

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Speaker 3: we can't get away from the news if we wanted to.

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Speaker 3: That's true, speaking of bad politicians, right, thanks.

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Speaker 2: For the news. Yes, we don't want you getting away

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Speaker 2: from it either, exactly.

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Speaker 6: This is true crime.

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Speaker 2: Tonight We're on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 6: I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with my buddy Body

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Speaker 6: Movin and Stephanie Leidecker and Lisa Bryant is about to

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Speaker 6: join us so we can speak about Jeffrey Ebstein. If

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Speaker 6: you have thoughts, and I know you do, we want

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Speaker 6: to hear from you, give us a call. We're at

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Speaker 6: eighty eight three to one Crime or leave us a talkback.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Lisa, Lisa Bryant. Do we have Lisa Bryant on

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Speaker 2: the line before Welcome to the show. I'll give a

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Speaker 2: little just sort of backstory on Lisa Bryant. So, Hi, Lisa,

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Speaker 2: Lisa Bryant has been We've been developing a project together,

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Speaker 2: Lisa Bryant and Kat and I've had the benefit of

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Speaker 2: working with you a bit in recent times. But really

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Speaker 2: your career kind of is it speaks for itself. As

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Speaker 2: you know, Lisa's been in the Joe Berlinger camp of greatness,

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Speaker 2: that most infamous momentarian and all the land. And you know,

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Speaker 2: she did this extraordinary Epstein doc back in the day

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Speaker 2: when frankly, it was probably a little dangerous to be

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Speaker 2: even making documentaries about Epstein and the victims, and it

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Speaker 2: was really extraordinary. So I'm so grateful Lisa that you're

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Speaker 2: joining us and can kind of, you know, give us

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Speaker 2: a little insight into the behive of all things Epstein

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Speaker 2: based on just your experience obviously, so welcome.

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Speaker 7: Well, thank you so much. I'm happy to share my

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Speaker 7: you know, insights. And when I worked on that and

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Speaker 7: still have been following it, it just keeps going on

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Speaker 7: and on, and it's it's crazy, you know, that's kind

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Speaker 7: of a weird way to put on. But it's a

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Speaker 7: nightmare that never ends, really, you know, He's really just

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Speaker 7: a nightmare that never ends.

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Speaker 2: So it's one of those cases. And I know I've

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Speaker 2: like tortured you about talking about it, you know, when

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Speaker 2: we've had our calls together completely on separate matters. I

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Speaker 2: don't like anyway back to Epstein because I really was

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Speaker 2: kind of taken by this case. You know, we'd always

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Speaker 2: heard these rumblings and in case you're listening and not

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Speaker 2: following it too closely. Jeffrey Epstein was a very wealthy

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Speaker 2: American financier and he was later convicted for being a

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Speaker 2: sex offender and operating a very vast sex trafficking thing.

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Speaker 2: But just to kind of paint a picture, he was

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Speaker 2: like a handsome man with like lots of opportunities and

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Speaker 2: New York City socialite guy and had a place in

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Speaker 2: West Palm Beach. I'm paraphrasing, but this was my interpret

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Speaker 2: And then he was like so wealthy and so infamous

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Speaker 2: that he had this he bought an island, and on

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Speaker 2: this island that only select people, if invited, could attend.

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Speaker 2: There was this big, fancy mansion and you know, basically

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Speaker 2: all the who's who of the world, whether it's Prince

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Speaker 2: Andrew or the Clinton's or you know, very big powerful

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Speaker 2: leaders in our world would go and you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of hobnob at this infamous island. And in my head,

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Speaker 2: I'm imagining like Gallas and you know, dining by the pool,

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing. And you know, little by little

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Speaker 2: we started hearing rumors that, I don't know, that hobnobbing

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Speaker 2: might be a little you know, weird, because also young

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Speaker 2: girls you know, as young as thirteen years old were

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Speaker 2: also being asked to go to this infamous island and

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Speaker 2: act as maybe messuses for these very high profile men.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think there were any real women there

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Speaker 2: per se, but regardless, the men are the ones that

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Speaker 2: I always was kind of hearing about. And then those massuses,

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Speaker 2: you know, slash massage therapists. Really that became like sort

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Speaker 2: of code word for sex trafficking. And the kind of

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Speaker 2: the scary part of this story has always been the

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Speaker 2: folklore of was this Epstein guy kind of luring young

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Speaker 2: women to come to this island to be with these

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Speaker 2: very high profile men, and then they would be videotape.

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Speaker 2: Like when this whole story broke back in the day,

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Speaker 2: it was like every single inch of this entire mansion

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Speaker 2: had had video cameras everywhere a little bit like what

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Speaker 2: we're seeing in the ditty case or allegedly what was

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Speaker 2: happening in the ditty case allegedly allegedly allegedly, so that

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Speaker 2: there was like a control room that you could see

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Speaker 2: all the cameras all over the mansion, so that if

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Speaker 2: like air quotes a prince or air quotes a former

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Speaker 2: president or an ambassador. People that were making very worldly

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Speaker 2: decisions would be air quotes lured there and then they

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Speaker 2: would be in the presence of maybe a thirteen year

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Speaker 2: old girl or young woman and oh shoot, you didn't

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Speaker 2: realize that that kind of got a little frisky.

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Speaker 4: Oh shoot, we have.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, we have it on camera. And then that

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Speaker 2: was a way of kind of the there's a term

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Speaker 2: for it, honey potting or honey taking, and when you like,

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Speaker 2: lure bees to a hive. And then therefore those tapes

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Speaker 2: were then later used as blackmail and potentially very worldly situations.

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Speaker 6: Eeke, when we come back, we're gonna hear everything from

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Speaker 6: top to bottom. Lease and I know we just bombarded

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Speaker 6: a bunch of information, but we cannot.

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Speaker 2: Wait to hear that thought.

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Speaker 4: Hold that thought, your side of.

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Speaker 6: This and listen, we are gonna continue diving into this.

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Speaker 6: When we come back, we'll have more insider knowledge on

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Speaker 6: Epstein in the wake of shocking recent developments, and later

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Speaker 6: also a forensic expert, Joseph Scott Morgan will be joining us.

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Speaker 6: Keep it here on True Crime Tonight, we are talking

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Speaker 6: true crime all the time.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. And we're about to be

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Speaker 2: joined by a very special guest, Lisa Bryant, who is

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Speaker 2: the director and the executive producer of Netflix's documentary Filthy Rich,

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Speaker 2: which really focused on Epstein and his victims back then.

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Speaker 2: But you know, she for sure has very interesting insight.

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Speaker 2: So just to go back to our last segment again,

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Speaker 2: some of this is my personal These are the theories

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Speaker 2: that we've heard in the press that people were being

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Speaker 2: lured to this island of high profile and power. That

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Speaker 2: is that has not improven. Fact, some men in black

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Speaker 2: vests have shown up downstairs here at the studio. I'm kidding.

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Speaker 2: So yeah. And then anyway, Jeffrey Epstein gets arrested and

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Speaker 2: charged and is sitting in prison in New York and

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Speaker 2: then suddenly he takes his own life. And that seemed

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Speaker 2: like the allegedly allegedly, allegedly allegedly, but now it seems that,

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Speaker 2: you know, Pambondi, now we're in current time. White House

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Speaker 2: Land is like, oh, yeah, all these high profile people

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Speaker 2: on his client list, We're going to share this with

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Speaker 2: the public because it's been long talked about and touted about.

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Speaker 2: And then she does a very unexpected thing. She does

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Speaker 2: it take back and is like, wait what, I didn't

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Speaker 2: mean that. No, there is no client list, not that

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Speaker 2: there's not a list that's been redacted for the sake

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Speaker 2: of the victims, etc. But rather there's no list at all.

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Speaker 2: Ks his right arm, kind of like his number two woman.

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Speaker 2: Her name is Gillien Maxwell. If you know this already,

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Speaker 2: just you know, bear with me. She was in fact

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Speaker 2: arrested for her shenanigains with him and is currently serving

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Speaker 2: time on federal charges because of these ongoings. So if

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Speaker 2: there was no client list, why is she in prison?

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Speaker 2: And why did we even volunteer this client list in

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Speaker 2: the first place. All of it is making the whole

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Speaker 2: country crazy because we just want some facts, right, So

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Speaker 2: don't forget the video. Well, the video, I guess is

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Speaker 2: like the the lead. So they released this.

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Speaker 3: You know, eleven hour video that was apparently supposed to

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Speaker 3: be footage of you know, Jeffrey Epstein's cell. By the way,

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Speaker 3: you can you cannot see his cell in this video.

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Speaker 3: It's ridiculous. And they said it was the raw footage.

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Speaker 3: The raw footage was their exact verbage the Department of Justice.

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Speaker 3: But there's a minute missing and there's an aspect ratio change,

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Speaker 3: and the metadata tells us that the video has been

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Speaker 3: edited by you know, Adobe Pro Premiere and it's two

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Speaker 3: video clips flice together. So there's that which is only

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Speaker 3: adding fuel to the fire.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I know how to edit on Adobe Premiere,

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Speaker 2: Like you would think this would be a little bit

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Speaker 2: more sophisticated. So well, they shouldn't have said raw footage

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Speaker 2: if it's not the raw footage eleven hours, one little section.

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Speaker 3: So the footage and everything though, especially with this crowd,

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Speaker 3: it's everything, and there's been so much discussion about it.

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Speaker 2: Who's on the list? What does that mean? Like? Who

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Speaker 2: are we protecting? Who is is it nefarious? You know,

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Speaker 2: it seems like my two cents again, my two cents.

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Speaker 2: It seems like there's a pox on all the houses

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Speaker 2: right now. So is it one side, is it the other? No?

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Speaker 2: Or is it just this larger umbrella that scares the

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Speaker 2: but Jesus out of me. It makes me so scared,

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Speaker 2: and I know I'm not alone in this, so anyway,

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Speaker 2: welcome the sane one. Lisa Bryant. Can you imagine you

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Speaker 2: can bring Lisa Bryant being stuck with me in a

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Speaker 2: car or something having to hear this. So Lisa tell

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Speaker 2: us everything. What do you think of these days? So

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Speaker 2: your experience back in the day when you were discussing,

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Speaker 2: when you were making your doc and Epstein like, these

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Speaker 2: were all very these were scary topics. Were you ever

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Speaker 2: nervous even making this documentary in the first place?

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Speaker 7: I was, let me tell you all about it in

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Speaker 7: one second. I just wanted to. Since you just gave

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Speaker 7: the rundown of kind of the latest, I was just

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Speaker 7: going to give you my gut reaction to all of

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Speaker 7: this news, the DOJ report, that's okay, I mean, of course,

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Speaker 7: my personal opinion after following this case for like seven

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Speaker 7: years now, it's hardly you. I really think this was

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Speaker 7: a really poor attempt to shut down the overwhelming public

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Speaker 7: interest and it just backfired. I think the report re

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Speaker 7: traumatizes the victims, gives no real answers, angers the public

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Speaker 7: that just really has this insatiable appetite and let's face it,

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Speaker 7: right to know about this story. I mean, inquiring minds

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Speaker 7: want to know things just don't add up. Everybody thinks

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Speaker 7: they're being lied to by the government, right, The only

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Speaker 7: feels conspiracies more. Ever, since the report came out. There's

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Speaker 7: been growing outrage I think daily because we're learning a

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Speaker 7: little bit more by different people who are speaking out.

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Speaker 7: You know, there's just this outrage you know by President

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Speaker 7: Trump's you know, most vocal supporters in the past, and

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Speaker 7: they're calling bs you know, where's the transparency. So that's

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Speaker 7: kind of my personal you know, take that. How stupid

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Speaker 7: do they think we are?

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Speaker 4: I know, being guess.

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Speaker 2: I do.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm being casolate.

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Speaker 6: So Lisa, just to super clarify, So, do you believe

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Speaker 6: there actually is the list which obviously Attorney General Pam

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Speaker 6: bondis BONDI said, you know, sitting on my desk, do

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Speaker 6: you believe that list exists?

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Speaker 7: Well, I think the term list client list is not

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Speaker 7: the right term. No, I don't think there is a

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Speaker 7: client list because I think there are different different lists,

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Speaker 7: if you will, or names that have already been put

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Speaker 7: out there. And I think most, if not all of

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Speaker 7: the names that are going to be put out there

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Speaker 7: are somewhere to be seen and you can make your

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Speaker 7: own list. But I mean the idea that I think

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Speaker 7: the general public has of a list is like you know,

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Speaker 7: your pen and paper you'd have on your notepad, at school,

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Speaker 7: and then at the top jeffreyption. You would say Jeffrey's list,

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Speaker 7: that's that, never this, And I think that's a misconception

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Speaker 7: that the public has because really, there the flight logs, right,

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Speaker 7: there's flight logs that names a lot of people. A

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Speaker 7: lot of those people are guilty of something a lot

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Speaker 7: or not. Must be very clear about that. The Black

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Speaker 7: Book hundreds of pages, hundreds of names. There's a lot

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Speaker 7: of guilty people there having sex with girls. Whether they're

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Speaker 7: underage of age doesn't matter. There are there are guilty

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Speaker 7: people in there, and I know that from hearing from

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Speaker 7: the victims, from doing research from sadly people who probably

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Speaker 7: may never be prosecuted. But there are names there, so

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Speaker 7: you can kind of create your own list. There are

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Speaker 7: also names that have been put forth in court documents.

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Speaker 7: You know, we can't say every name that's been in.

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Speaker 7: Some have been reacted, some names have not been reacting.

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Speaker 7: Can't you know, assume that everyone is guilty that's there.

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Speaker 7: But you know, I think if you've been really investigating this,

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Speaker 7: and you know, I think talking to surviving is key

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Speaker 7: and getting you know their story. I think I have

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Speaker 7: my own list. I can't say I have a working list,

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Speaker 7: I should say, you know what I mean in terms

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Speaker 7: of like people that we you know, I had the

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Speaker 7: team that I've worked with on both the different documentaries,

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Speaker 7: the Jeffrey Epstein Filthie Rich and then the Maxwell follow

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Speaker 7: up documentary. So there's you know that we had great teams,

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Speaker 7: great people, great support with Netflix and Radical Medy and

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Speaker 7: Joe growing drew of course, And but it's very difficult

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Speaker 7: to name names. As you know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 7: big risks, and I have to say, you know, and

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Speaker 7: now to get back a little bit to how this

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Speaker 7: hole started and was I ever nervous? And it's funny.

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Speaker 7: I was working at Radical Media on a different project

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Speaker 7: that had just kind of finished, and Joe said to me,

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Speaker 7: I have another project coming up, but we really need

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Speaker 7: a female to direct this. Would you be interested in

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Speaker 7: this guy named Jeffrey Epstein? And I never heard Jeffrey Epstein,

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Speaker 7: I you know, didn't grow up in New York, California, girl,

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Speaker 7: and not that I just never was didn't run run

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Speaker 7: in those circles. And I looked him up, and you know,

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Speaker 7: the more I read, the more outraged I became, the

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Speaker 7: more interested I became in trying to reveal, you know,

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Speaker 7: some of this story, because he was very much alive

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Speaker 7: when I started. I started a story in November of

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Speaker 7: twenty eighteen. He was arrested eight months later. We had

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Speaker 7: already and this is little TV talk, but we had

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Speaker 7: already delivered our first rough cut to the network before

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Speaker 7: he was arrested. But I will say, and I still

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Speaker 7: say this, this was the hardest, faddest, most kind of

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Speaker 7: an inexcruciatingly frustrating story that I have ever could ever

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Speaker 7: and we'll ever work on and most important, you know,

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Speaker 7: I'm grateful for the experience. But it's also been very

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Speaker 7: heavy heavy. As you guys can imagine.

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Speaker 3: The responsibility to tell the story. It's it's a massive

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Speaker 3: responsibility to tell the story. So yeah, I can see

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Speaker 3: why that would be like really heavy for you.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, and you know he was he was very much alive,

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Speaker 7: trafficking girls, not just to his island, which is you know,

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Speaker 7: kind of the sexy thing that we and really I

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Speaker 7: think the worst and most you know, crazy stuff from

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Speaker 7: my research and then talking to people happened there. You know,

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Speaker 7: it's remote, it's hidden and very secretive, and you get

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Speaker 7: blown out there and you know it's very you know, mysterious,

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Speaker 7: but he also remembered he had his Manhattan townhouse, huge

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Speaker 7: Manhattan townhouse where all those cameras you're talking about and those,

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Speaker 7: and also on the island. He had his big mansion

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Speaker 7: in Santa Fe, well just outside of Sante in New Mexico.

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Speaker 7: He also had a place in Paris, you know, he

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Speaker 7: and then of course his infamous Florida home where his

432
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 7: high school operation went. He really had three different kind

433
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 7: of ways, and I guess decades of of grooming and

434
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 7: trafficking women. MaTx Elgawleyne Maxwell, his number two partner in crime,

435
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,239
Speaker 7: was really a little along the ride for most of it.

436
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 7: It kind of started in the early nineties, you know,

437
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 7: for the most part. That's where it kind of really

438
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 7: picked up steam where she was really really involved. She

439
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 7: was his girlfriend, She dated him, she was madly in

440
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 7: love with.

441
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 2: She loved him, right, that's my scoop on that, Like

442
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 2: she was crazy for him and like somehow thought getting

443
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 2: him more girls would keep him in her world. This

444
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 2: is again my like soap opera version in my head.

445
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 2: But it seemed like she was really.

446
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 7: In love with She seems to be accurate. Yeah, that

447
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 7: that is that's Okay, that's what we reported, and that

448
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 7: seems to be why. I mean, it can never explain

449
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 7: why why would someone do the things that she has

450
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 7: been convicted of. Let's just say she's been convicted, so

451
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 7: we can say that she did. You know, she was

452
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 7: his you know, it was an international sex trafficking scheme,

453
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 7: really pyramids. He was at the top, the main pimp.

454
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 7: She was pimp number two. She was his right hand woman.

455
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 7: And really, especially in those early nineties, they were recruiting

456
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 7: you know, everything from models, the girls standing outside of

457
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 7: famous private schools in New York City, to going to

458
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 7: beauty pageants that presidents were hosting and things like that

459
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 7: and plucking out, you know, women that he was attracted to,

460
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 7: that spit the mold, that seemed like perhaps they were

461
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 7: in need of something. Summer camps, how you know, it

462
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 7: was always this kind of house. How I can help.

463
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 3: More with expert Lisa Bryant on the shocking Epstein updates,

464
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: and we're going to be unpacking his alleged suicide with

465
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and later we want to

466
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 3: be hearing from you. Give us a call at eight

467
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 3: eight eight thirty one Crime we'll be right back.

468
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 4: Keep it right here. True Crime Tonight, where we're talking

469
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 4: true crime all the time.

470
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

471
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. And we're also joined by director,

472
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: executive producer, colleague and friend Lisa Bryant. Now, she made

473
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: the Netflix documentary Filthy Rich, the Epstein Free Epstein doc

474
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 2: as well as the follow up about Gileen Maxwell. So

475
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: Lisa was just telling us that she actually started working

476
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 2: on this documentary for you know, months before Jeffrey was

477
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: actually arrested. I didn't realize he was still alive when

478
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: you were working on this, Lisa. That means it was

479
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: very dangerous. So go ahead, phill Us in from what happens?

480
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: Were you ever at the island?

481
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 7: No? Yes, a matter of fact, I staked out three

482
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 7: of his properties. I went to the island twice, once

483
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 7: when he was alive, once after he was dead, suicided, whatever.

484
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 7: And I also staked out his Florida home and his

485
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 7: New York mansion. And I did go actually to New

486
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 7: Mexico too and got there as well.

487
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 8: But the island.

488
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 4: While he went to the island, well.

489
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 7: Let me clarify, I never went on. I was not

490
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 7: I was not allowed on the island for I took

491
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 7: a boat with a camera person. Of course, we're like.

492
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 8: We're we're going that I was around the gods not

493
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 8: so much because everywhere you look, as you get closer,

494
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 8: because you fly into Saint Thomas and then you take

495
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 8: you know, a boat, you.

496
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 7: Can it's it's you know, it's not huge, but it

497
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 7: certainly you'll take it a little while to put around it.

498
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 7: So we're like, oh, it looks like there's like almost

499
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 7: they look like little tanks. But I guess they're jeeps,

500
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 7: but from far away because some of them had like

501
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 7: you know, army prints, and I was kind of like, oh,

502
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 7: got some tanks out there protecting it. But actually I

503
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 7: think they were just jeeps. But there, you know, you

504
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 7: can see him in certain areas that we'd just you know,

505
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 7: go on the water a little further around seeing maybe

506
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 7: we can get on over there, maybe we can get

507
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 7: on under. And I'm telling you, the minute they are

508
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 7: they are all of his you know, security is on

509
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 7: guard before he's before he's arrested, after he's arrested, and

510
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 7: after he's dead, people are still running that island. So

511
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 7: we never were able to get on because we saw

512
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 7: these men on you know, these commerce or what jeeps

513
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 7: following the boats as going around, you know, to the island,

514
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 7: so we could see that they had guns. So that

515
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 7: was a little scary. But I will say that after

516
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 7: he was dead, I didn't see you know, we got

517
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 7: on the boat again because of course, that's what you

518
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 7: wanted to try to get on the island and take

519
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 7: pictures of yourself, you know, the whole crazy weird stuff

520
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 7: and see if there's a tunnels and all of that.

521
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 7: But anyway tunnel you get close to, well, there's rumors

522
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 7: there were tunnels underneath, and you know it's not I

523
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 7: don't even know if it's rumors, if I'm hearing it

524
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 7: from a survivor, you know, it's let's just say, there's

525
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 7: the answer. Could have been some tunnels underneath eye, you know,

526
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 7: I cannot say. But bottom line is, we go and

527
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 7: we're getting closer and closer to the docks, and there's

528
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 7: nobody in sight. But all of a sudden, probably I

529
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 7: don't know, twenty yards from the dock. He's kind of

530
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 7: it's kind of hilly, it's an island, and they're from

531
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 7: all sides. They're about I would say, two on each

532
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 7: side of these these men and jeeps again with with

533
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 7: literally black what looked like to me, I don't know

534
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 7: what machine, look looks like a machine done. And they

535
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 7: come hauling towards the yacht and like making noise with

536
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 7: some sort of noise maker or something. And I first thought, oh,

537
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 7: maybe this is like the police just protecting the island.

538
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 7: It was the night it was Epstein still had even

539
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 7: though he's gone, he's dead, you know, his people were

540
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 7: still for a very long time running all of his properties.

541
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 7: It took a long time to go through all this,

542
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 7: you know, the legal stuff and probade and all this

543
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 7: kind of stuff, which is I think some of this

544
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 7: is scillity's been going on. But anyway, we high tailed

545
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 7: out that. That was a little scary. The other time,

546
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 7: like when we staked out his house because we were

547
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 7: tracking my team was tracking his plane. You know, he

548
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 7: has a private jet his tail number, and we wanted

549
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 7: to approach his house. That I wasn't physically like afraid

550
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 7: he was going to do something to me, but I

551
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 7: really wanted to, you know, do like a door knock,

552
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 7: you know, like in TV your doorknock. So at a

553
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 7: house I did. It was like a door knock because

554
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 7: we had tracked his plane. We knew he was there.

555
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 7: We saw this mysterious you know escalade, like a parade

556
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 7: of escalades go in. So we just kind of sat outside.

557
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 7: There's you know, there's there's a gate and there's a

558
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 7: little buzzer. So I hit the buzzer and sure enough

559
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 7: his door manner or house manager says, you know, hello,

560
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 7: and I said, you know, as mister Epstein home. No,

561
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 7: he's not here. And I said, oh, I identified myself

562
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 7: and are you sure he's not here because I could

563
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 7: swear that I saw him pull in. Nope, he's not here.

564
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 7: If you want to leave your card, I said, I'm

565
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 7: absolutely going to leave my card. And anyway, I never

566
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 7: did get a chance to talk to him, but I

567
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 7: do believe in fact he was there and heading out.

568
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 7: And then one other time, this is you know, I.

569
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: Don't have tory, Like my jaws dropped right now that

570
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: you're putting yourself in these very dangerous these are like

571
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 2: the hornet's nest. Like we wouldn't even google his name

572
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: at one point because it was sort of that scary

573
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: of a case because of all of the high profile

574
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: people that he may or may not have been connected to.

575
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: So continue we're in awe.

576
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 7: Well, I think part of it is I think I

577
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 7: was sort of in denial too. I don't think we

578
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 7: really knew at that point. How you know, you're hearing

579
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 7: these rumors and but we certainly didn't know it was

580
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 7: like hundreds of women and you know, I mean, we

581
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 7: just didn't know that when it was going on, we

582
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 7: knew it was bad and that you know that the

583
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 7: two thousand and eight the Palm Beach Police kind of

584
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 7: buffed that whole thing, or alex Acosta was the fall

585
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 7: guy for that government botch. I believe that, you know,

586
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 7: to give him just a slap on the wrist and

587
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 7: let him right back out. But it was just kind

588
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 7: of evolved into what it became. I guess that. So

589
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 7: I guess I didn't have the fear that I probably

590
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 7: should have.

591
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: Passed in retrospect in hindsight, right, like knowing what we

592
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: know now that he was like a real worldwide sex trafficker.

593
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: In case you're just joining us too, please hit us

594
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: up eight eight eight three one crime if you want

595
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: to join the conversation. We have director Lisa Bryant who

596
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: is an incredible director and executive producer, but also did

597
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: the Epstein and Geleen Maxwell documentaries on Netflix. So she's

598
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: kind of giving us a little behind the scenes here

599
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: and basically how she was knocking on doors when he

600
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 2: was alive and also tried to get on the island

601
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: when he was And by the way, the island's a

602
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: big deal because if young girls are being brought there, imagine, oh, hey,

603
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: come with us to this fancy island with this very fancy,

604
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: you know man and all of his fancy friends. And

605
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: then you can't get off the island because you have

606
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: to take a little private plane to get there in

607
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: the first place. So that's particularly scaring because you can't

608
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 2: just not that there's ever a just when you're being

609
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 2: you know, assaulted, but you can't run. Oh my goodness.

610
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 7: He took the girl's passport. And actually Glene Maxwell often

611
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 7: she had a helicopter pilot's license. She would helicopter the

612
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 7: girls there from they would fly to the main island

613
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 7: and then they would she would helicopter some of them

614
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 7: over to Little Saint James was the name.

615
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 2: Of the island.

616
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 4: That's wild perfect.

617
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, she is a license helicopter anyway, Yeah, we can

618
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 7: talk about her and her involvement.

619
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 6: Oh, I was going to say on the Gileen Maxwell,

620
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 6: which is the documentary I watched most recently, and it

621
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 6: is so compelling and so well done. What's Killeen Maxwell?

622
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 6: Was she procuring all of these girls and women for

623
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 6: because the go ahead?

624
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 7: Not the high school girls. Not the high school girls,

625
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 7: and she would she claimed that she was out of

626
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 7: his life by then. That turns out not to be

627
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 7: the case. She would actually kind of hit out on

628
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 7: the island. So there was still kind of the what

629
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 7: I would say, the older girls, a little bit older,

630
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 7: the high school girls, which is what made you know,

631
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 7: for the arrest. Really in two thousand and five is

632
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 7: when Palm Beach police got involved when the mother of

633
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 7: a fourteen year old girl said, oh, my daughter had

634
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 7: a school called me. She had all this cash in

635
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 7: her in her pocketbook and there was a fight that

636
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 7: broke out and anyway, so that's what started the investigation,

637
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 7: and they had you know, identified, you know, during that investigation,

638
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 7: like more than two dozen I think almost three dozen

639
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 7: victims of Jeffrey Epstein and so Glaine. But what was

640
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 7: crazy about that is the high school girls ended up

641
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 7: recruiting themselves. It was a crazy thing. And I think

642
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 7: that's what is so like unbelievable when people hear about this,

643
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 7: and it's it's fascinating, but not in a good way.

644
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 7: It's shocking really. So they had started with someone, you know,

645
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 7: who was a young woman, probably not much older than

646
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 7: high school who would you know, recruit and said, this

647
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 7: guy needs a massage, and then you know, if you

648
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 7: bring somebody then you can get money too. And and

649
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 7: you know, some of the girls like they didn't want to,

650
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 7: you know, take part in the massages, but hey, I'll

651
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 7: bring a friend. I mean, but these are all a

652
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 7: lot of the girls targeted were very vulnerable, you know,

653
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 7: had came from broken homes, had money problems, or they

654
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 7: you know, had big dreams that you know, he promised

655
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 7: to fulfill. But the fact that at you know, some

656
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 7: of these high schools, there was two high schools in

657
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 7: particular in West Palm Beach that the girls would recruit

658
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 7: each other and it was like a train and it

659
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 7: went on and on and on for like four or

660
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 7: five years till finally, you know, the the cops got

661
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 7: wind of it. But I don't know how, like the

662
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 7: teacher or other kids. Didn't everybody knew about it. The

663
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 7: survivors that we talked to, who are right underage girls.

664
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 7: It's a very open secret. How that never got out before.

665
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 7: It's crazy. But you know, when their children, their brains

666
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 7: are not fully formed. We know they can't get consent.

667
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 7: They're you know, getting some money, which I know a

668
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 7: lot of people have issue with, Well why did they

669
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 7: go back. They're getting something out of it, they got paid.

670
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 7: Their children they can't. And even once who are like

671
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 7: eighteen nineteen, you're still your brain is not fully formed.

672
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 7: Your your prefrontal cortex is not formed until you're in

673
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 7: your mid twenties. So it's and again when you're being

674
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 7: roomed and manipulated, and you know, he paid attention to

675
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 7: these girls, you know, and a lot of them. It's

676
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 7: kind of weird. I talked to some you know, weird

677
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 7: not even the right word. It's it's sad and shocking.

678
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 7: But some girl said that they actually were in love

679
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 7: with him, you know, And I don't think that's all

680
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 7: that in common. That sometimes room all in love with

681
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 7: your abuser.

682
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 3: That's what groomers do. They make you fall in love

683
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 3: with them. That's the that's.

684
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially like you know, he wasn't like, you know,

685
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: a scary looking guy like he was like a successful,

686
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: you know, affluent guy. And that's why having Elaine Maxwell

687
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: his number two was even more you know, damning Frankly,

688
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 2: and why she's Frankly serving time because you know, when

689
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 2: there's a woman around that, it makes it feel a

690
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 2: little safer. Right, So if you have a woman saying, oh,

691
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: it's cool, just come you'll be safe here, you don't

692
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: think like, oh my god, older, creepy man, he's going

693
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 2: to lock the door behind me. When there's somehow another

694
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: female in the mix, it seems somehow safer. And I

695
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 2: think that's really something worth exploring and us talking about. Absolutely. Listen,

696
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: there was allegedly this list of a very you know,

697
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 2: influential and high profile world leaders for example, that were

698
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 2: going to this very fancy island that he owned in girls,

699
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: young ones as young as thirteen years old were being

700
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 2: lured there to essentially have sex with these with these men.

701
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: And then Epstein allegedly allegedly allegedly was you know, videotaping it.

702
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: That was there was cameras everywhere, you know, The assertion

703
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 2: or the conspiracy theory behind it. Again, this is a

704
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 2: theory in one that I happened to agree with that

705
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: that was maybe revenge video. Right. So now you have

706
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: these young girls, high profile world leaders. Now there's videotape

707
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 2: of maybe some nefarious behavior, and suddenly that's maybe a

708
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: blackmail situation.

709
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 9: Right.

710
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: So that's a little bit of the collateral Undergrearent. It's

711
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 2: like collateral. It's like collateral.

712
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 7: Yes. And what I think's interesting is because the DOJ

713
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 7: report says, quote, there was no credible evidence found that

714
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 7: Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals. Well, I do think there are

715
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 7: still some graphic comprom ats, as they call it, blackmail

716
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 7: tapes and photos that Epstein made of influential power for

717
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 7: men and others having sex with women that he and

718
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 7: Maxwell's trafficked to them, that he used leverage to build

719
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 7: his empire. And really, you know, that's how he made millions. Really,

720
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 7: I think almost all the survivors that I've spoken with

721
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 7: saying Steen cameras or learned they were hidden cameras at

722
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 7: multiple homes, not just the island. His New York home,

723
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 7: I know, was crawling with them, according to you know,

724
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 7: multiple survivors. And you remember when his home was raided.

725
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 7: Right after the arrest, they came out, FBI came out

726
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 7: carrying boxes of CDs and photos. They said photos. I'm

727
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,879
Speaker 7: sure there were also some videos on those CDs. And

728
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 7: they also then raided the island and his homes, all

729
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 7: of the homes, you know. And also one of the

730
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 7: victims who, sadly, her name is Virginia Giufrey, sadly committed suicide.

731
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 7: But before we talk about that a little bit, she

732
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 7: said told me that, you know, Estein had told her

733
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 7: that he had taped these tapes of a lot of

734
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 7: important people doing things they shouldn't and that's he plat

735
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 7: Up told her that. Now, yes, I guess there's always

736
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 7: the chance that he could be making that up. But many,

737
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 7: many people believe he was running a blackmail operation on

738
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 7: behalf of a foreign government. Many people in DC and

739
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 7: elsewhere believe that.

740
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 4: And you said, you said.

741
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 7: They think he might have been operating on behalf of

742
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 7: foreign intelligence services.

743
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 4: I mean, because it's used to the.

744
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 7: Weapon is reel actually right, because.

745
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 3: This information is used as a weapon. Compromound is a

746
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 3: very specific turn which is coming right off the heels

747
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 3: of the diddy stuff.

748
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 2: I mean again, this is the high profile play right

749
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: now as dangerous as it gets. First of all, Lisa

750
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: Bryant with us, who's the director of the Epstein documentary

751
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: and the Gileen Maxwell follow up documentary. You can catch

752
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: it on Netflix, giving us sort of this inside track

753
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 2: information and like, listen, that is some scary stuff. So

754
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: the fact that that is now there's a little bit

755
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: take back of that information is also kind of scary

756
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: because you know, what do we do for victims? We listen,

757
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 2: We're going to be right back, So Lisa, I know

758
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 2: where we're keeping you for there's we'll be back True

759
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the time. Welcome

760
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

761
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: crime all the time, and listen. We want you to

762
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: jump in and join the conversation eight eight eight three

763
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 2: one crime or hit us up on our socials at

764
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, or at

765
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight on Facebook. We're talking Epstein, are we ever?

766
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 2: Because we have Lisa Bryant, the director of Filthy Rich

767
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 2: also the executive producer. So Filthy Rich is the documentary

768
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: about Jeffrey Epstein on Netflix. Definitely check it out. She

769
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: also did the follow up for Gilain Maxwell's dot commentary

770
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: and Lisa Bryan like she literally was going door to door,

771
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 2: knocking on doors. She took a boat to try to

772
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 2: get on the island. Turns out she was enabled to,

773
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: as we just heard, if you've missed any of the

774
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: last hour, you can always catch it right after the

775
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 2: show as a podcast. Please do so, Lisa back to you.

776
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: We were kind of knee deep in the many conspiracy theories,

777
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: or not even conspiracies, the many theories that at least

778
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 2: I'm seeing the chatter on is that maybe Epstein was

779
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: working for a foreign agent and was essentially, you know,

780
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: whether he was luring powerful, high profile world leaders to

781
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: his island and had videotapes everywhere in cameras, videotapes like

782
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: it's nineteen seventy five. He had cameras everywhere, So that

783
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 2: essentially if a leader or somebody of significance and importance

784
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 2: was you know, having sex with a thirteen year old

785
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: or an underage woman or even just a young woman

786
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: that was outside of his actual life, then there was

787
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 2: tape of it. Then that becomes like basically revenge listen

788
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 2: that has high value and high value amongst very very

789
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 2: influential people. So it's important stuff. And you know, we're

790
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: coming off the heels of the Didty documentary that I

791
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 2: just watch and also the Diddy trial that these are

792
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: some of the alleged things that frankly he wasn't brought

793
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: up on and that seems like a thing of the

794
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 2: past with Diddy. But the idea that there's blackmail like this,

795
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: and maybe more importantly, what that does for victims, because

796
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: the fear would be that victims are afraid to come

797
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 2: forward a because they don't want to be seen on videotapes,

798
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: you know, like that's so a embarrassing and horrifying, also

799
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: that it's incredibly dangerous and maybe the most significantly, Hey, look,

800
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: nobody believes you. And it seems as though in the

801
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 2: Epstein documentary that you made Lisa so beautifully that's kind

802
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 2: of the lead here, right. Virginia Dufrey, the probably the

803
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: loudest of the victims not very long ago, you know,

804
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: sadly took her life back in April. So we'd love

805
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: to hear from you kind of your experience with just

806
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 2: you know, the victims that you've spoken to.

807
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 7: Well, Virginia, really I think nothing would have happened to

808
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 7: Epstein or Maxwell had it not been for her banging

809
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 7: the drum so loud. She started in twenty fifteen with

810
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 7: the lawsuit actually against Maxwell first because there was an

811
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 7: opportunity there that she was not going to have with Epstein.

812
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 7: It was more of a defamation case. But through the

813
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 7: depositions in that case, they were able to her attorneys

814
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 7: were able to get in all of the stuff that

815
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 7: was happening, all the trafficking, different allegations and whatnot. So

816
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 7: she never back down. I mean she named names, She

817
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 7: named big names, you know, and took a lot, a

818
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 7: lot of flack, a lot of heat.

819
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: You know.

820
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 7: She came very forward publicly against Prince Andrew Alan Dershwoodz.

821
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 7: There's a number of other people that you know are

822
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 7: in some of the depositions that may not be so public,

823
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 7: but she wanted to make your list. There's some other,

824
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 7: you know, very prominent names and things that she you know,

825
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 7: alleges with traffic too. And anyway, she never backed down.

826
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 7: And I think she had a very troubled life. I

827
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 7: don't want to speak too much on it, but she

828
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 7: had been trapped before she even met Epstein. And and

829
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 7: she had difficulties with her family and also with her

830
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 7: husband until anyway, I think it all got to be

831
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 7: too much, especially with a big lawsuit that was going

832
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 7: on after Epstein passed away. I don't want to get

833
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 7: into that either, but I just I just know she

834
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 7: had personal problems and some health problems, and I feel

835
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 7: like it just all became too much for her. And that's,

836
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 7: you know, really sad. There's been some drug overdoses with

837
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 7: with Epstein, you know victims, and there's certainly there. All

838
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 7: of them are continually, you know, a work in progress.

839
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 7: Trauma you know, presents itself in different forms. There's triggers

840
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 7: all the time. Time This DOJ report I know, I'm

841
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 7: speaking to a couple who I stay in touch with,

842
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 7: is very triggering for them to hear that, and then

843
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 7: it's really just another slap to them.

844
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, how could it not be. And anyone, you know,

845
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 2: anyone even listening who's been you know, subjected to any

846
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: kind of abuse, you know how hard it must be

847
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 2: to have to actually raise your hand and say this happened.

848
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 2: Number one, the idea that nobody will believe you, and

849
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: then maybe more significantly, like we see in those that

850
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 2: were brave enough to appear in your documentary and kind

851
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 2: of face their monsters while in court with cameras on them,

852
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: in the media pressures, et cetera. You know, they get

853
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: made out to be you know, trash yet again. And

854
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 2: you know, men like this who are grooming young women,

855
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: you know, they're looking for the ones that are the

856
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: most vulnerable. That makes you the best target, right, the

857
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 2: ones that are going through it or maybe have had

858
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: bad experiences in the past, and the self doubt, et cetera.

859
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 2: I always thought it was strange though, would you just

860
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 2: right before Virginia do freight her life back in April

861
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 2: I think it was maybe a month prior to that,

862
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 2: there was this incident where she was in a bus accident,

863
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: and then she had posted some photographs of herself with

864
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: a black and blue eye. Do you guys remember this?

865
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: And then the people that were also on the bus

866
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: with her that were like Taurus or something said, eh,

867
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 2: I wasn't really much of a bus accident. It all

868
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 2: seems so strange now again my Spidey sense and you know,

869
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: everybody raised there like this might maybe sound a little

870
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: out there. And Lisa, I'm pretty sure I texted you

871
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: that morning of like, listen, this all seems a little fishy.

872
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: No that suddenly here we are the DOJ is saying, nope,

873
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: take it back. Nothing to see here. That list never existed.

874
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: Oh well, the main loudest victim who's essentially the face

875
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 2: of this Epstein trial. Oh, what a coincidence. Just a

876
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: couple months ago she took her own life. Oh and

877
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 2: there was that weird incident right before that in your

878
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: heart because I know you went to the memorial. Does

879
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 2: that track or is that just I'm chasing a ghost?

880
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 7: You know? Unlike the Epstein suicide, I do think he

881
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 7: sadly did take her own life because of her husband

882
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 7: is alleged to be an abuser. You know that it's

883
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 7: not untypical for people to kind of land in the

884
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 7: hands of someone. She's been married to for a very

885
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 7: long time, but allegedly he was abused towards her, and

886
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,720
Speaker 7: he took her children away, and I think that became

887
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 7: too much for her, And I don know, I don't.

888
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 7: I don't want to comment on the whole bus thing

889
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 7: because I think there it was more of a personal

890
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 7: thing that was going on with her and her husband

891
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 7: that understand had to deal with that, and it's nobody's you.

892
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: Know, nobody's business, so that it is kind of just

893
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 2: a it's very sad, and our hearts would go out

894
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: to her. I mean, it was very brave for her

895
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 2: to speak up, and our hope is that victims continue

896
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 2: to do so because it's really hard to get justice

897
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 2: out there.

898
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 7: It isn't Sometimes I will just want to point out that,

899
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 7: you know, over time, memories change or things come out

900
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 7: that you you know, as we know, you block things

901
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 7: out and protect any of these things you do, and

902
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 7: sometimes these and any stories are they're not stories, but

903
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 7: these incidents happened a long time ago, decades for some people,

904
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 7: so you know, details might be a little sketchy, or

905
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 7: they forgot something, or they told the story just a

906
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 7: slightly different. At the core, trafficking is trafficking, and they

907
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 7: were were trafficked, whether it was on this date or

908
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 7: that date, or they were this age in three months,

909
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 7: in this age in two months. But at the core,

910
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 7: you know, we have to listen to victims and and

911
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 7: you know and believe them, you know, for for at

912
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 7: the heart of what they're saying is true. And I

913
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 7: think unfortunately in this case, in particular, it was very

914
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 7: difficult because of the power dynamic was so skew and

915
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 7: these you know, wealthy, mostly white powerful men you know,

916
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 7: all held so much over their heads, right right, Oh my.

917
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 2: Gosh, yeah, like having you hear Lisa. First of all,

918
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 2: thank you. I know we kind of kept you so

919
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: much longer than maybe you anticipated. But you know, these

920
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 2: next couple of days, there's been some you know, new

921
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: developments in the news even right now, so all of

922
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 2: this is really significant context to the idea of hey,

923
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 2: like you know, we actually as we're talking about this,

924
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: we have to talk back about it right now. Hi.

925
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 9: So, yes, I have a question.

926
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 5: If we know some of the victims, why can't we

927
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 5: just go to the victims directly and ask them to

928
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 5: self report who their perpetrator was and get the list

929
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 5: that way instead of waiting for the Department of Justice

930
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 5: to release this list if it exists. Thanks so much.

931
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 2: What a great question, great, great, great question. Thank you

932
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 2: for that, Lisa.

933
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 7: What do you say to that, Well, she's saying she'd

934
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 7: get this straight. She knows some of the victims, And

935
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 7: if she knows some of the victims, why don't they

936
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 7: self report who the list is?

937
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? Like meaning we're all like waiting for the DOJ

938
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 2: to release it, and it's like, oh, the FBI the

939
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 2: list of redacted list. But if we know the list

940
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: of victims and those victims know who their perpetrators were,

941
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 2: you know.

942
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 7: Well they do and they don't. I think I think, yeah, well,

943
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 7: I think some people have told people who they were

944
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 7: who they felt comfortable saying. But some people are afraid

945
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 7: to mention these powerful people's names because they were threatened.

946
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 7: Some find NDA's and see that scene successfully back in

947
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 7: you know, a long time ago, somewhat successfully there were

948
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 7: conditions on some.

949
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 9: Of the shoots.

950
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 7: But I think they're afraid. And again, I don't think

951
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 7: their list might be one person, and I you know

952
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 7: a lot of times they weren't. You know, not everybody

953
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 7: was a famous person either. There were just a lot

954
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 7: of john you know, they might still have been wealthy,

955
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 7: but maybe they're not, you know, CEO, you know, presidential whatever,

956
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 7: you know, famous. Yeah, saying is like.

957
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, like even though I'll say it because Bill Gates's

958
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 2: wife has said it anywhere up down in sideways that

959
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 2: you know the reason that she claims that she divorced

960
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 2: Bill Gates and again allegedly, allegedly allegedly is because of

961
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 2: his very close connection to Epstein and his constantly going

962
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: to the island, like she has said that everywhere. So

963
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: you know, these are big names. Again, we don't know

964
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 2: if that's accurate. What happens behind closed doors, who knows.

965
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 2: But like again, these are very people who are influencing

966
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 2: our world in a very meaningful way. You know. The

967
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: idea that they're coming together and that perhaps there's blackmail

968
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: being used at times when there are very big world

969
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: decisions being made is very unsettling. So it's important for

970
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 2: it's important for us to get some answers. So what

971
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: do you think is going to happen in the in

972
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 2: the in the coming days. We have only two minutes left,

973
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 2: so the the briefest answer to what happens tomorrow in

974
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 2: the news, what are we waking up to?

975
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 9: Oh?

976
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 7: Good, well, I wonder if I mean, you know, there

977
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 7: was this little fat tiff between you know, Pambondi, the

978
00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 7: Attorney General and then the deputy FBI director on Friday,

979
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 7: who's upset that he feels like he didn't handle things properly.

980
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 7: Dan's on Gino. You know they I guess there was

981
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 7: a risk and all out yelling and screaming war so

982
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,919
Speaker 7: he didn't show actually didn't happen on Friday. He didn't

983
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 7: show up to work on Friday and said he was

984
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 7: thinking about quitting. Uh, so it happened a couple of

985
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 7: days prior to that. But he thinks, you know, she

986
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 7: she made a mess of it. The DJ made a

987
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 7: mess of it, and you know it's I don't necessarily

988
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 7: think it's all her fault. And she's in a position

989
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 7: where she is just there almost like as an acting.

990
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 4: Flack.

991
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 7: Really she just has to do and say whatever you know,

992
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 7: her boss is saying, no matter how high up, whether

993
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 7: it's from Trump himself or just below, she just has

994
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 7: to do what they say. So I think she kind

995
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 7: of got caught in the middle, uh and cotied and

996
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 7: and uh maybe yeah, she didn't handle it great. But

997
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 7: I also think she was put in a really precarious position.

998
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 7: So I think that'll be interesting to see if it

999
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 7: causes a big shakeup, because I don't with the one

1000
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 7: quick setter. And what's really interesting though, is that I

1001
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 7: think before Dan Bongino got his job at the FBI,

1002
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 7: and the same with the FBI director cash to tell Na,

1003
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 7: Thank you.

1004
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 4: So much for joining us today.

1005
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 3: Your dedication to this case and getting justice for the

1006
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 3: victims is something we should all be living up to.

1007
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,439
Speaker 3: Those interested in seeing Lisa's work and learning more about

1008
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 3: the Epstein and Maxwell case watch her incredible documentaries on

1009
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 3: Netflix stay right here True Crime Tonight, where we're talking

1010
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 3: true crime all the time.

1011
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: Our very favorite forensics expert, host of Body Bags, Joseph

1012
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:41,439
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan joins us again. We're talking Epstein, So he's

1013
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 2: going to weigh in on was he killed or did

1014
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 2: he kill himself? So Courtney Armstrong, you want to fill

1015
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 2: us in a little bit on the.

1016
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 6: Backstory, Absolutely so, Jeffrey Epstein, who has been EveryWare in

1017
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 6: the news. A newly released FBI and Apartment of Justice

1018
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 6: memo is reaffirmed Epstein died by suicide in twenty nineteen

1019
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 6: and also that no client list ever existed, so.

1020
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 4: That has been released.

1021
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 6: This has sparked calls for Pam Bondi's replacement, she's the

1022
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 6: Attorney General. The controversy has gone deeper. There has been

1023
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 6: the emergence of a wild missing minute off of the

1024
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 6: prison CCTV Close caption TV footage which alleged to show

1025
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 6: outside of Jeffrey Epstein's cell, and Bondi explains that this

1026
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 6: was due to quote, outdated equipment, but it doesn't make

1027
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 6: any sense, and then she further doubled down on this

1028
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:41,760
Speaker 6: wildly missing minute.

1029
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 4: Well, in the metadata, yeah, it shows us that it's

1030
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 4: been edited.

1031
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 3: It's two videos spliced together, and the aspect ratio changes

1032
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 3: in this video like it it gets bigger, it's it's

1033
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 3: it's pretty wild.

1034
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 6: Actually, well, according to the Attorney General, do not believe

1035
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 6: your lie in eyes because the words out of her

1036
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,479
Speaker 6: mouth were apparently in this prison, every time it gets

1037
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 6: almost near midnight.

1038
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 4: We lose a minute of tape.

1039
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 6: So anyway, that is what has been recently, just in

1040
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 6: the past couple of days given out, which all leads

1041
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 6: us to forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan being here to

1042
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 6: talk about the suicide question mark. Joseph Scott Morgan, host

1043
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 6: of the wildly successful podcast Body Bags.

1044
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 9: How are you I'm doing well? How are you guys doing.

1045
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 4: Better now that you're here?

1046
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't see Joseph right now. Joseph Scott Morgan,

1047
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,879
Speaker 2: forensics expert of greatness, is as tan as they get.

1048
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 4: It looks like he just got off the yacht.

1049
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you just roll straight from Malibu right to

1050
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: Fantasy Island also known as.

1051
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 9: No you know? And I have for INDs that accusing

1052
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 9: you lay in the tanning bed and I'm like, no,

1053
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 9: I really don't. I just I've got a boat. I

1054
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 9: just got out of my boat when I can. It's

1055
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 9: my therapy.

1056
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 2: It's right at summer, A lot better than the.

1057
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 9: People that I'm doing, a lot better than the staff

1058
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 9: that the Justice Department are doing right now. And hearing

1059
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 9: don't see that, and you know, so I don't know. Look,

1060
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 9: I've been going around around about Estein for all these

1061
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 9: years now, since it came out of I first covered this.

1062
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 9: I'll never forget. It was on a Sunday morning. I

1063
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 9: was live on air in Atlanta on HLN and there

1064
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 9: it began. And I haven't quit since then. And so

1065
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 9: I have never help that his injuries were consistent with

1066
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 9: the suicide. It's just there are too many inconsistencies. And

1067
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 9: it's one of the most facile arguments I've heard, I

1068
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 9: think in forensics in some time to try to get

1069
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 9: us to buy into that. People are tired of being

1070
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 9: treated like we're stupid and you know and just you

1071
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 9: know when you look at the injuries that he sustained,

1072
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 9: these injuries involve what's in the big question here is

1073
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 9: the highwaid bone, which for you guys that don't know,

1074
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,919
Speaker 9: the hyoid bone. If you go superior anatomically, if you'll

1075
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 9: find the cartilage and centered your throat and go up

1076
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 9: like in mails where the Adams apple is really protuberant,

1077
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 9: goes superior to that, that's where the highwaid is. And

1078
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 9: it shaped some people say it's shaped like a bird.

1079
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 9: Some people will use the term horsehoe. It's the only

1080
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 9: non articulating bone in human body, and what that means

1081
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 9: is that it doesn't communicate with any other bones. Its

1082
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 9: sole purpose is to anchor the tongue in the back

1083
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 9: of the throat, the only reason it's there. In the

1084
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 9: course of my career, and again I've only got one

1085
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 9: little slice, okay, of my career, my experiences, I have

1086
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 9: only seen one case where the highwid was fractured, and

1087
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 9: it was non homicidally related, and it was a car

1088
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 9: crash where God went over a three story high off

1089
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 9: ramp on itent and hit the top of the steering

1090
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 9: wheel and like a nineteen sixty eight Plantiac at the

1091
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 9: twelve o'clock position hit him in the throat, his highway.

1092
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 9: Epstein's the greater horn. It's got two horns, the greater

1093
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 9: well'scot four actually the greater and the lesser corner, and

1094
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 9: they're actually horns. The one on the right side is

1095
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 9: the one that is fractured. And in addition to that,

1096
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 9: what makes it even more screwy is the fact that

1097
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 9: the cartilage in the layernix is fractured as well. It's

1098
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 9: not simply the highwaid. So you've got several things at

1099
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 9: work here. Some people have talked about, well, at the

1100
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 9: hues at it could have been ossified and it would

1101
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 9: not have taken as much pressure, you know, with a

1102
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 9: ligature if he had to sing tied around his neck,

1103
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 9: and that you know, it essentially injured this area in

1104
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 9: his neck. And I just I don't buy it. I

1105
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 9: don't buy it, you know. I think even in judicial hanges,

1106
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 9: you know where you know, you have these state sanctioned

1107
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 9: hanes where people will fall from a great height and

1108
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 9: it's calculated. You generally don't get fractured hyoids. It's so

1109
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 9: high up in the throat, you have to reach so

1110
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 9: high to do it that it's I'm not going to

1111
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 9: say it's completely implausible, but if I were a betting man,

1112
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 9: I would listen more towards something other than suicide.

1113
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 4: Well, especially where the ligature mark is right. It's lower

1114
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 4: on his neck than it than it.

1115
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 9: Is it is. And here's another thing that will really

1116
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 9: blow people's hairback about the ligature mark and listen. This

1117
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 9: stuff is all available online. CBS published this in their

1118
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 9: sixty Minutes Report from so I think it's back in

1119
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 9: eighteen or whenever it was. If you look at the

1120
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 9: profile picture and when I say not like profile on

1121
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 9: you know, social media, I'm talking about like in profile

1122
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 9: sad shot.

1123
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 4: I'm looking at it right now.

1124
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 9: There's an image of Epstein laying laying flat on his

1125
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 9: back in a soup time position, and you can see

1126
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 9: the abraided area that runs from the front of the

1127
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 9: neck all the way to the back. Look at that

1128
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 9: very closely, as you can see that mark does not

1129
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 9: go upwards. There's something in in in hangings that we

1130
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 9: look for in forensics that's referred to as tinting feature

1131
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 9: spelled T E N T I n G not like

1132
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 9: T I like tinting in a window tinting like a

1133
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 9: pup tint, So what you're looking at is the pup

1134
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 9: tint going up in the air. It doesn't make sense,

1135
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 9: it's right, Yeah, it runs parallel to the shoulder. Another

1136
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 9: thing also that has that has bothered me about this.

1137
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 9: He's got this pretty significant contusion at the at the

1138
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 9: on the postier aspect of his neck. It's on the backside,

1139
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 9: so the posterior involving like the shoulder right there, there's

1140
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 9: you know, I don't know if it looks like I

1141
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 9: don't have an exact measurement because I didn't I can't

1142
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 9: remember if there's a scale on it, but approximation out there,

1143
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 9: it looks like it's about too maybe two inches in

1144
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 9: the greatest link by maybe about an inch and a

1145
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 9: quarter and w what what's up with that? Because that's

1146
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 9: the contusion. You know what that means. That means that

1147
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 9: happened in live So it's not like a.

1148
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 4: Post of some kind.

1149
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 9: Yeah maybe I mean perfect.

1150
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 4: Folks who haven't seen it.

1151
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 3: The ligature mark to me, Joseph, and I'm a leman,

1152
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 3: Joseph's the expert. But to me, it looks like if

1153
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 3: if this was his cause of death, like somebody from

1154
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 3: behind him, because it goes straight across. There's not there's

1155
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 3: no that tinting that you were talking about, like an assassin,

1156
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 3: like an assassin right like.

1157
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 2: Coming up.

1158
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 9: Right, yeah, groat or grot on, you know where you

1159
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 9: hail for. But yeah, it kind of looks that way.

1160
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 9: And the other thing is is that, you know the

1161
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 9: the jailer's actually said, whatever the hell they call himself

1162
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 9: jailer's correction, I don't care whatever you know they said.

1163
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 9: The guy that discovered the body said, I cut the

1164
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 9: noose off. Well, there was two ligatures, two tied nooses

1165
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 9: on the floor in his cell, which, by the way,

1166
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 9: the cell is like a pig style. It looks like

1167
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 9: a hog waller. When you look at this thing, this

1168
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 9: shredded material all over the wear, you know, all over

1169
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 9: the place. You know, you always imagine, you know, shawshank

1170
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 9: where the things are like really neat. It looks like

1171
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 9: he's living. It looks like squalid conditions, mattresses on the floor,

1172
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 9: there's pill bottles everywhere. It's chaos in there. If he

1173
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 9: fell from a height to generate that kind of injury

1174
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 9: on his neck, I don't think that there's sufficient there's

1175
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 9: not enough altitude for him to have jumped from, even

1176
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 9: if you think that he's perched from the top bunk,

1177
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 9: which by the way, doesn't have a mattress on it,

1178
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 9: jumped off of that and then fell to the floor

1179
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 9: and snapped his neck or broke his hyoid, not snapped

1180
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 9: his neck the vertebra or intact. It just doesn't. And

1181
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 9: plus the material that you're talking about, both of those

1182
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,919
Speaker 9: those nooses quote unquote I'm using air quotes right now,

1183
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,439
Speaker 9: they show no evidence of tool marks on them where

1184
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 9: they have quote unquote been cut. And this also factors

1185
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 9: into the corrections officers being less than forthcoming or truthful

1186
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 9: as well, because you got this person that discovers them

1187
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 9: and says, yeah, you know, I cut it off of it. Well,

1188
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 9: are you referring to these nooses that were pre tied,

1189
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 9: that were laying on the floor. Is that what you're

1190
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 9: talking about, because there's no evidence of that as far

1191
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 9: as them being trimmed with a knife in any way.

1192
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 6: Interesting, So do you think when you said that the

1193
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 6: and we don't have a ton of time, but of

1194
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 6: course you will be joining us after, But so do

1195
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 6: you think there is something off or odd about what

1196
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 6: the correctional officers were saying, or that it didn't It

1197
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 6: sounds like it didn't quite match up to the pictures.

1198
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 6: If there's no cut marks on if I'm understanding you,

1199
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 6: if there's no cut marks on any of the fabric,

1200
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 6: then what were they cutting?

1201
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that that would be my big question.

1202
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 9: If I was sitting across the table from them in

1203
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 9: an interview and I had that evidence and they had

1204
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 9: made that statement, I'd say, look, I want to revisit

1205
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 9: your statement here, because what you're saying doesn't necessarily match

1206
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 9: up with the physical evidence that we found at scene.

1207
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 9: And that's a big piece of evidence because you know, listen,

1208
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 9: the people that arrive on scene in a death investigation,

1209
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 9: the first people that are eyes on the dead body

1210
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 9: are your most crucial witnesses as far as understanding the

1211
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 9: context of the body to the scene, because remember, he

1212
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 9: would us removed from that cell and taken to the

1213
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 9: hospital the emmy investigator, which they took pictures they were

1214
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 9: out there. They didn't see his body at the scene.

1215
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 9: They saw his body in the er.

1216
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 3: Right.

1217
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 6: Oh interesting, Well, listen, stick around. We have a lot

1218
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 6: more we're going to be digging into, and we are

1219
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 6: lucky enough to be doing it with forensic expert Joseph

1220
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 6: Scott Morgan. Listen, we have questions for him. I'm sure

1221
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 6: you do too. Give us a call. Eighty eight three

1222
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 6: to one Crime. We are talking Jeffrey Ebstein. We are

1223
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 6: talking forensics, and we are talking really whatever you want

1224
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 6: to speak about crime wise. If you give us a call,

1225
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 6: keep it here. True Crime Tonight.

1226
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1227
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 2: true crime all the time, and we have Joseph Scott Morgan,

1228
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 2: our very own forensics expert who is joining us today. Listen,

1229
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 2: very tan and really blowing our minds about the forensics

1230
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 2: surrounding the Jeffrey Epstein bluruhaha, that's everywhere at this exact moment,

1231
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 2: you know, really the question being, you know that the

1232
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 2: company line has always been that he committed suicide in

1233
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 2: his jail cell. And now that you know, Joseph, you're

1234
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 2: looking at the forensics. There's nobody in the world we

1235
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 2: trust more than you. You know this stuff. You've done

1236
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 2: so many of these cases countless. Frankly, Number one, we

1237
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 2: want to hear more. Number two, like we just want answers,

1238
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 2: like girl hundreds of girls allegedly are being trafficked. And

1239
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 2: this again is not a political thing. We're not trying

1240
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 2: to point fingers, and it's just like it's just stinks

1241
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 2: that we can't get answers and justice for these young women.

1242
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 2: You know, we know that's true. So I digress. We

1243
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:48,919
Speaker 2: have a talkback right now, so we'll go to that first.

1244
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 9: What's up to you, cron tonight?

1245
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 2: I just need to know in each of your opinions,

1246
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 2: yes or no, did Epstein kill himself? This is body

1247
01:06:57,080 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 2: and I'm going to say no, it's Stephanie, and I'm

1248
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:00,479
Speaker 2: going to say.

1249
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 4: No, Courtney, and I'm unclear.

1250
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 3: Oh safe, Joseph, what's your answer, Joseph. Scott Morgan, By

1251
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 3: the way, what's your answer, Joseph, Based.

1252
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 9: Upon the scientific evidence and cases essen in the past,

1253
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 9: this is not consistent with the suicide, and like.

1254
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 2: What that means, we don't know who. We're not pointing

1255
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 2: a finger, we're not suggesting that somebody came down from

1256
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 2: a helicopter for me in the dead and night and

1257
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 2: like assigning who. But it just sort of stinks that

1258
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 2: it's not being discussed in its full transparency so that

1259
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 2: you know, we can all weigh in and even if

1260
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 2: we're wrong, you know, in court Ney Armstrong, you're really

1261
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 2: quite right. How could it be clear? It's impossible for

1262
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 2: it to be clear because we've heard so many different things,

1263
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 2: right so I hear you.

1264
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 6: We have heard so many things, and I don't know

1265
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 6: I was. I was really on the fence before this,

1266
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 6: you know, statement of there is no client list when

1267
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 6: we said it, of there the metadata of the video

1268
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 6: that actually is inclining me way more towards something absolutely

1269
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 6: nefarious happened. It does not make sense. I mean, it

1270
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 6: doesn't just reek of a cover up. I mean will

1271
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:11,919
Speaker 6: be able soon to say as fact it is from

1272
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 6: whom I don't know.

1273
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:17,679
Speaker 2: But I I looked at metadata all my life, and

1274
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:22,680
Speaker 2: you know, metadata cop BYDK metadata doesn't lie and it doesn't.

1275
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:24,719
Speaker 4: Tell the official story that we're being told by the government.

1276
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 2: And that plus what Joseph has said about the forensics,

1277
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 2: because I believe in science, That's what I believe in.

1278
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 3: That's my higher power, and I just I have to

1279
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 3: trust the science behind this, and that's that he did

1280
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 3: not kill himself.

1281
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 9: And like even the idea, no, I was just gonna say,

1282
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 9: I take exception, you know, I'd mentioned this off air,

1283
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 9: you know, I take exception to people that and the

1284
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 9: news media has run with this because I think that

1285
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 9: they're so used to doing it where they throw it

1286
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 9: the term conspiracy theory. You know, we're not talking about

1287
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 9: little green men. You know, we're not here on you know, uh,

1288
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 9: you know, Coast to coast after dark or whatever. We're

1289
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 9: we're not talking about that where you know, we're we

1290
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 9: are talking about provable scientific findings and some things just

1291
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 9: don't marry up. And it's not a conspiracy theory to

1292
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:28,559
Speaker 9: ask science based questions and to expect reasonable answers, you know, don't.

1293
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 9: And and the thing about it is, I think for

1294
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:32,960
Speaker 9: so long, what's so frustrating about this is that everybody's

1295
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 9: been led by the nose around about this whole thing.

1296
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 9: And now they're saying, you know, ignore the man behind

1297
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 9: the curtain now. And it's it's very frustrating. I can

1298
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 9: understand why. Uh, it's bubbling over nationwide. It's not just

1299
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 9: one little group of people, and it crosses the political aisles.

1300
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 9: People are frustrated with this very much so, and it's

1301
01:09:56,520 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 9: it's it's very very frustrating because those of us that

1302
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,640
Speaker 9: work in certain fields and we are counted on for

1303
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 9: our scientific reliability. It leads down these really dangerous paths

1304
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 9: where people begin to question scientific validity about other things

1305
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 9: that you're involved in. It's not just the Epstein kickure.

1306
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 9: It leads out right, that's problematic.

1307
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 4: That's problematic because it.

1308
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 3: Leads over to other issues and people stop believing in

1309
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 3: the science and start believing rhetoric. Right, And that's not

1310
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 3: a good place.

1311
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 2: And it's so funny you bring that up, Joseph, because listen,

1312
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:34,880
Speaker 2: we live in a divided time, right, there's there's there's

1313
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 2: so many sides right now, and everybody's you know, doubling down.

1314
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 2: I'm right, I'm right. You know, it seems as though

1315
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,560
Speaker 2: one thing we can collectively all agree on, despite your politics,

1316
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 2: your religion, your your finances. Like everybody wants answers because

1317
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:52,920
Speaker 2: we all feel a little gas lit by this. And

1318
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 2: it's not a one person stop, right, Like one person

1319
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 2: being excused from their job doesn't change the bigger picture

1320
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:05,559
Speaker 2: of this seeming there's something fishy, right, and we're in

1321
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 2: the there's something fishy business. And again we're not here

1322
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 2: to say we have answers that we don't, but I

1323
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:14,719
Speaker 2: you know, I was really hoping that even by tonight

1324
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 2: by air, we would have more clarity given to us.

1325
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 2: And it doesn't appear that's coming.

1326
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 9: No, I don't know that that it is. I wouldn't

1327
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 9: hold my breath. We've been holding our breath for a while.

1328
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 9: And this is this is the you know, kind of

1329
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 9: the ultimate screw you relative to you know what everybody's

1330
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:39,560
Speaker 9: kind of been waiting on and anticipating. Uh, very frustrated

1331
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 9: and to another point too, And I know this is

1332
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 9: something we can all agree on, is that we don't

1333
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 9: like to see children abused, thank you. Exactly about it

1334
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 9: is they they've become upon even furthermore than they were before.

1335
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 9: And I've heard I've heard people try to adjust the ages. Now.

1336
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 9: I've heard that that line of law in the news

1337
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:05,560
Speaker 9: media where they said, oh well, they were not underage,

1338
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 9: they were just really young. And I've heard that stated

1339
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 9: a couple of times, and I take exception with that,

1340
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 9: particularly when you're hearing things these wild stories about girls

1341
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,600
Speaker 9: being brought in from Eastern Europe to service whoever this

1342
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 9: cadret of people is. My question is is that they're

1343
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 9: coming in from Eastern Europe? Where did they go exactly

1344
01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 9: where you know after they were used? Where did they go?

1345
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 9: Where they just cut loose on the streets at Florida

1346
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 9: or in Manhattan, or did they place them back on

1347
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 9: a plane and take them back if we follow this

1348
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 9: line of logic back to Eastern Europe, I don't know.

1349
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:44,880
Speaker 9: I would think that many of those girls have a

1350
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 9: story to tell. I would think that there would be

1351
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 9: an ambitious journalist out there that would want to track

1352
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:51,840
Speaker 9: some of these girls down and have conversations with them.

1353
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 9: I don't know that. And there's so many of them allegedly,

1354
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 9: it would seem as though you could find one. Where

1355
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 9: are they? I want to know there's story?

1356
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:03,519
Speaker 6: Well, and Lisa Bryant who was on earlier. It's not

1357
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:08,800
Speaker 6: particularly the women slash girls you're referring to Joseph, but

1358
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 6: she had a Lisa Bryant had really compelling information from

1359
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:17,639
Speaker 6: speaking with the victims who participated in her documentaries Filthy

1360
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 6: rich On, Jeffrey Ebstein and Guleen Maxwell.

1361
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 2: But it was yeah, what did happen?

1362
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 6: And there's mention of their having their passports taken and

1363
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 6: these girls, even if they were of age, the sex

1364
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 6: trafficking still happened. You are still taken and you were

1365
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:37,559
Speaker 6: a lured with the promise of in some cases a

1366
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:41,400
Speaker 6: summer camp to help further your potential to get into college.

1367
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:43,960
Speaker 4: I mean, it's really what a.

1368
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 2: Bunch of saying that was done.

1369
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:49,720
Speaker 9: My documentary by the way, absolutely donamite that Lisa, that

1370
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:53,120
Speaker 9: Lisa put together. Wat and I watched it, you know,

1371
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:55,320
Speaker 9: a couple of years back, and we were just, you know,

1372
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 9: just astounded by it. It was beautifully found and it

1373
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:01,600
Speaker 9: was so the clarity on it was fantastic.

1374
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 4: I have to get I have to watch it. I

1375
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:03,880
Speaker 4: have to be honest.

1376
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,559
Speaker 3: I never paid attention to the Epstein stuff because it

1377
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:08,880
Speaker 3: was so political and it was like, I just you know,

1378
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 3: but now I'm sad, Like I am sad for this.

1379
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:14,600
Speaker 3: I am into it now and I'm I'm going to

1380
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:15,719
Speaker 3: watch it when we're done here.

1381
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 2: And it makes us mad, you know. And Joseph to

1382
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:21,120
Speaker 2: your point, everybody on you know, in this conversation, right

1383
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:23,120
Speaker 2: Joseph you at the leader, by the way, host of

1384
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 2: body Bags. If you if you haven't listened to the podcast,

1385
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 2: please do. It's you know, so well done. You know,

1386
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 2: it's all victim forward, right, So you know at a

1387
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 2: time that it's increasingly difficult to be able to actually

1388
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 2: get victims to come forward. You know, we're seeing that

1389
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 2: just on the heels of the ditty case, you know,

1390
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 2: get and this, that and another thing. It's hard out there,

1391
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:50,160
Speaker 2: so you know, things like this only make it worse.

1392
01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 2: And I'm going to hold out some hope that when

1393
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 2: we all wake up in the morning tomorrow, we turn

1394
01:14:55,520 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 2: the news on and there'll be some developments. Because nobody

1395
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:01,479
Speaker 2: even said that they're needed to be a client list,

1396
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,759
Speaker 2: like we were told there was an Air Quotes client list.

1397
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 2: Like it's just too confusing.

1398
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:11,080
Speaker 4: Joseph, I have a question about the photos. That's senty minutes.

1399
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 3: There's a photo of his back in the in the

1400
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,719
Speaker 3: I'm gonna describe it the back, it looks like there's

1401
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:22,840
Speaker 3: blood pulling in areas of his back. Is that what

1402
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:24,599
Speaker 3: that is?

1403
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:23,640
Speaker 1: It?

1404
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 4: Is that what you would expect to see? And what

1405
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:31,559
Speaker 4: does that tell you? How wal Yeah, I'm asking question.

1406
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 9: No, no, no, no, that's fine, and we need to

1407
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:37,439
Speaker 9: ask questions. Yeah, that's post worm liviidity, and that means

1408
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 9: that if it's posterior, and the terms are kind of confusing,

1409
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 9: post mortem lividity is posterior in this case, which means

1410
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 9: on the backside. So gravity if you're laying face up,

1411
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 9: let's just say face up, blood is going, it's a liquid,

1412
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 9: it's going to see the lowest point of gravity. And

1413
01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 9: so we'll go there and there is of a time

1414
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 9: measurement that we do for that. Now to your point,

1415
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:09,600
Speaker 9: when we have hangings, suspension hanging, and it can be

1416
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:12,719
Speaker 9: a partial we have suspension hangings, which is the classic

1417
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:16,280
Speaker 9: thing where somebody's hanging from a raptor and just hanging

1418
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 9: in the air. Then you have partial support or partial

1419
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:23,479
Speaker 9: suspension where feet or knees are touching the ground. Did

1420
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:25,840
Speaker 9: you know that you'll actually have post moral avidity that

1421
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:29,639
Speaker 9: will set in in the ankles and in the knees,

1422
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:32,160
Speaker 9: and the knees and the ankles will swell because the

1423
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 9: engorgement of gravity pulling down the blood. And I would

1424
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:42,960
Speaker 9: be interested to see the actual autopsy photographs to understand that,

1425
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 9: because that will give you a lot of information about positionality.

1426
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 9: When you're seeing those images of his body and you're

1427
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 9: looking at the posterior, that's probably a shot that was

1428
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:59,840
Speaker 9: taken in the morgue. He's already been in a cooler way,

1429
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,280
Speaker 9: face face up, and a cooler for a period of time,

1430
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 9: so lividity will settle. That's why you have to make

1431
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:09,679
Speaker 9: these judgments at the scene as soon as you can,

1432
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 9: because all of the data is wrecked after you have

1433
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 9: these time these markers out in tom you get beyond

1434
01:17:16,160 --> 01:17:19,479
Speaker 9: those markers and the data, your data points are blown

1435
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 9: to hell at that point.

1436
01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:22,880
Speaker 3: So these were taken hours later after he sat in

1437
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 3: the cooler, probably, so these weren't like Onseen photographs that

1438
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:28,639
Speaker 3: were looking.

1439
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:30,680
Speaker 9: At No, those were not on scene he was. He was.

1440
01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:33,599
Speaker 9: As a matter fact, you look at one of those images,

1441
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:35,720
Speaker 9: you can see the paddle mark on his chest where

1442
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:38,280
Speaker 9: they try to do resuscitation. Yes, it's right, you can't.

1443
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 9: It's right over stern them. Yeah.

1444
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:40,800
Speaker 4: Interesting.

1445
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:43,719
Speaker 3: You're listening to True Crime tonight, where we talk true

1446
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 3: crime all the time, and we're right in the middle

1447
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 3: of talking with Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert on the

1448
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 3: alleged suicide of Jeffrey Epstein Court.

1449
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:55,479
Speaker 2: You had you had a good question.

1450
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:58,679
Speaker 6: Yes, okay, we do not have a lot of time,

1451
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 6: but i have a lot of need to know the answer.

1452
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 6: So I've been digging through all this information as we're talking,

1453
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 6: flipping through papers. Among injuries that were found on Epstein

1454
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:12,920
Speaker 6: during the autopsy, contusions on both of his wrists and abrasion,

1455
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,320
Speaker 6: a bruise on his left forearm, and quote deep muscle

1456
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 6: hemorrhaging in his left shoulder muscle. So I'm a lay person,

1457
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:25,160
Speaker 6: but is that consistent with suicidal hanging?

1458
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 9: No?

1459
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:29,400
Speaker 4: No, no period?

1460
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:33,439
Speaker 9: Really and real quickly. I hope that they dissected each

1461
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 9: one of those injuries because we can actually age those injuries.

1462
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:39,759
Speaker 9: We can say if they're resolving or not. I'm hoping

1463
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:43,400
Speaker 9: they did, you know, to try to again contextuals.

1464
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:45,759
Speaker 4: Can we not get the autopsy report?

1465
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 2: Like?

1466
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:49,000
Speaker 4: Can is this foiable? I'm sure somebody has already.

1467
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:50,000
Speaker 2: I don't think it is.

1468
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:50,719
Speaker 9: Really.

1469
01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 2: I want to say that for fact though, because I

1470
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:54,160
Speaker 2: don't think that it is.

1471
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:56,240
Speaker 4: Okay, well then we can foil it.

1472
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:58,479
Speaker 2: I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna look into it, because that's crazy,

1473
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:04,840
Speaker 2: like not injury, pick your poison, choose your dad, choose

1474
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 2: your night.

1475
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:07,040
Speaker 4: My Funday Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

1476
01:19:07,439 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, starting, we're doing a twenty four hour show. It's

1477
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 2: a marathon and kids, we're just getting started. It's the

1478
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:23,120
Speaker 2: forensics off and you know, listen it's complicated stuff. Again,

1479
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to hold out hope that we have some

1480
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:28,720
Speaker 2: clarity is starting tomorrow. I'm hoping that someone out there

1481
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:30,920
Speaker 2: can move the needle, you know, for anyone connected to

1482
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 2: this case, victims included. You know, our hearts genuinely are

1483
01:19:34,040 --> 01:19:37,960
Speaker 2: with you, and we hope this doesn't discourage other victims

1484
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 2: from from coming forward and speaking up because you know,

1485
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:45,320
Speaker 2: without your voice, you know, silence changes nothing, right, So

1486
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:49,120
Speaker 2: what a night I feel. Also, Lisa Bryant, thank you

1487
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:52,360
Speaker 2: for joining us for this. You know again, this one's

1488
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:54,600
Speaker 2: knocking on doors and you know, getting on yachts to

1489
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 2: go to islands to get herself not killed, thank god.

1490
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:01,840
Speaker 2: But that's pretty gutsy stuff, and you know, hats off

1491
01:20:01,960 --> 01:20:04,599
Speaker 2: in my humble opinion, as your friend and colleague, let's

1492
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:06,720
Speaker 2: knock it off with all that because we want you

1493
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,040
Speaker 2: safe and sound. But again, Lisa will be joining us

1494
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 2: hopefully very soon too, to talk through any of these

1495
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:13,880
Speaker 2: new developments as they unfold, and we got a big

1496
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:16,599
Speaker 2: week ahead. So Joseph, you've been following so many cases

1497
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:18,360
Speaker 2: that we didn't even get to touch on tonight. The

1498
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 2: Menanda's brothers too. We want your feedback on that one,

1499
01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:23,640
Speaker 2: because there's a hearing coming up on that. I don't know,

1500
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:26,439
Speaker 2: we'll pick your poison anyone.

1501
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:29,719
Speaker 3: I just I just I just can't believe I didn't

1502
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 3: know all this stuff about you know that.

1503
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:33,360
Speaker 4: I'm literally in kind of stunned.

1504
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 3: I've been I've been kind of sitting here all night

1505
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 3: just kind of just like staring at Joseph talk and

1506
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 3: listening to Lisa and just been transfixed because there's just

1507
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 3: so many inconsistencies that I never paid attention to.

1508
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:45,639
Speaker 4: Just I just didn't care about this case. I just didn't.

1509
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:48,839
Speaker 4: But man, I am really I'm really shocked.

1510
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's shocking.

1511
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:51,960
Speaker 4: It is shocking, and I.

1512
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 3: Think, yeah, I'm kind of just kind of speechless, and

1513
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 3: I feel kind of silly.

1514
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 2: Silly, You're the least silly person. You're still silly for not.

1515
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 9: It's confusing. It's confusing because it's so voluminous, so very voluminous,

1516
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:10,000
Speaker 9: and it has been made unnecessarily confusing and in some

1517
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:14,000
Speaker 9: monds intentionally that way. So and it shouldn't be. It

1518
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:16,280
Speaker 9: shouldn't be. This is pretty straightforward.

1519
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:20,080
Speaker 2: Stuff, right, It's black and white, but it's not apparently well,

1520
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:22,360
Speaker 2: just like that. Another Sunday night comes to a close.

1521
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 2: Listen up, everybody. We're wishing everybody a great start to

1522
01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:29,080
Speaker 2: their week, happy Monday to be, so let's go and

1523
01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 2: you know, join forces. And also our hearts are with

1524
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:35,439
Speaker 2: Texas as always, so sending our love and prayers there.

1525
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 2: It's been a great night, Thanks everybody. This is true

1526
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 2: crime tonight. Good night, Stay safe.