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Speaker 1: Ye, Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom keene Jailey.

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Speaker 1: We bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,

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Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg Mark

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Speaker 1: Howard Bamp powered by Senior Multi Assets Especialist seven five.

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Speaker 1: Usually it breaks down at seven o two. Mark, great

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Speaker 1: to have you with us. Looking down to Washington day,

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Speaker 1: same up. Throw the distinction for us between noise and news.

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Speaker 1: I can promise you I'm not gonna sing thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me today. You know, there's a lot of noise.

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Speaker 1: I like to use the analogy of the wonderful French

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Speaker 1: open at BMP is proud to sponsor. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of back and forth in d C, and the markets

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Speaker 1: have had to respond to it. There's been uh uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, a series of headlines, whether it's around the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court, around the president's taxes and and who knows

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Speaker 1: what else is going to come out of the debate tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: But investors have pulled back. There's no question, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's a really important theme for your viewers to

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Speaker 1: grapple with is that there was a long bullish run

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Speaker 1: led by Nasadac, but also in in the credit markets

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Speaker 1: and and in other parts of fixed income, and now

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Speaker 1: people have pulled back a little bit. September has been

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Speaker 1: a month of consolidation, and I think October will be

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Speaker 1: the same. It's gonna be bumpy, and tomorrow night we're

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Speaker 1: gonna get a full dose to that murk Howard, I

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Speaker 1: want to digress here. You were kind of have to

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Speaker 1: send me a wonderful coffee mug from the Oyster people

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Speaker 1: up on the Dammers. God of the Gliden Oyster people.

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Speaker 1: They are at absolute textbooks small business. How bad is

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Speaker 1: small business like glib and Oyster getting crushed right now? Well,

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Speaker 1: it is a genuine concern, as you've heard, and I

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Speaker 1: think you also might have heard Boston At President Eric

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Speaker 1: rosen Grin speak last last week saying how uh, some

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Speaker 1: of the lending programs to small businesses have not having

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Speaker 1: as big a take up as as some might have thoughts. So,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a there's a lot of stress in

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Speaker 1: the system, and you hear that from voters. You see

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Speaker 1: that in some of the protests on both sides of

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Speaker 1: the Aisle and U and there's a lot of anxiety,

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Speaker 1: especially with the October one rolloff of of support. You've

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Speaker 1: you've you've heard the airline companies speak very vocally about

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Speaker 1: their need for additional fiscal support from Washington, and the

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Speaker 1: same is true for small business. Well, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people agree it's going to be a rocky period going forward,

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Speaker 1: even Mike Wilson, who has been a bull for most

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Speaker 1: of this year of Morgan Stanley coming out over the

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Speaker 1: weekend and saying he expects the sell off to continue.

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Speaker 1: Where do you get defensive and how do you just

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Speaker 1: go to cash or do you depend and say the

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Speaker 1: tenure Treasury to do more than just flatline. Well, as

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Speaker 1: as you guys are laughing earlier, the tenure has been

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Speaker 1: kind of boring lately. So I don't think there's been

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Speaker 1: a lot of money going into that. I do think

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Speaker 1: people want optimum liquidity at least. It's a great question

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Speaker 1: because when you talk to the major fund managers, what's

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Speaker 1: really critical to realize is that their year was made

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Speaker 1: in March and April. They made a lot of money

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Speaker 1: stepping into the breach, exploiting volatility and uncertainty in turbulence

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Speaker 1: and so in order to do that again if we

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Speaker 1: have it in October or around the election in November,

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Speaker 1: they need pure liquidity. And so I think you're gonna

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Speaker 1: see it in cash, You're gonna see it in money

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Speaker 1: markets and in short term T bills and short notes. Well, Mark,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about where the gap could be that they

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Speaker 1: might fill high yield spreads. Just winding a little bit,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to make too much a

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Speaker 1: big deal of this. I don't think it's significant yet,

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Speaker 1: but it's not insignificant what we saw last week, Mark,

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Speaker 1: concerning that the fetes now a player. Your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: the cracks that emerged in the last week or sun, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think they're They were pretty broad. It wasn't just

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Speaker 1: you know, softening invaluations. There was the first outflow in

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Speaker 1: high yielding in some time. UH. We watched the credit

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Speaker 1: derivatives and marketplace closely, and we saw an increase in

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Speaker 1: interest for um UH for credit protection in the options market,

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Speaker 1: and we also saw a reduction in the longs of

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Speaker 1: the c d X I G. So I think there

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Speaker 1: are a number of signals, and of course the emerging

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Speaker 1: markets had some softness. So I think UH you know,

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Speaker 1: there are a number of places that you could see

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Speaker 1: further weakening, uh in the event that we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of instability and questions, particularly around constitutional issues, because

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Speaker 1: that's not a playbook that investors have much history with.

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Speaker 1: Right the virus was a big unknown, but at least

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Speaker 1: the FED could address that. The Fed's not in a

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Speaker 1: position really to address a constitutional issue if in fact

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Speaker 1: that comes to pass. Mark, what's the measurement of your

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Speaker 1: wall of worry right now? I mean, hasn't short interest

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Speaker 1: in all this? I mean, folks, the SMP five based

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Speaker 1: off futures of forty two is down a horrific seven percent.

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Speaker 1: Oh the humanity, I mean, Mark, I mean we're down

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Speaker 1: seven on sp X right now. And am I right?

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Speaker 1: There's just been a massive swing to a short bet.

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Speaker 1: I think I don't know about that time. I think

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Speaker 1: there's been more just taking some chips off the table

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Speaker 1: in certain names there. I'm sure there have been some

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Speaker 1: idiosyncratic short beets put on, but I think a little

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Speaker 1: bit of steam blowing out of the system is a

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Speaker 1: healthy thing. So I'm my wall of warrior is not

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Speaker 1: that high. I think the odds of a of a

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Speaker 1: major disruption later this year are quite low, and that's

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Speaker 1: why valuations are still so attractive or so full in

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Speaker 1: many asset classes. My point though, is that late in

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Speaker 1: the year after investors have done pretty well, particularly since March,

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Speaker 1: it's just human nature to take some chips off the table.

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Speaker 1: So and I think the lesson learned back then was

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Speaker 1: when you send some anxiety, you need some liquidity, you

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Speaker 1: need to be prepared to pounce. And so that's what

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Speaker 1: prudent investors are doing um and and it's augmented a

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Speaker 1: little bit by quarter end the end of September and

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Speaker 1: Mark christ cash up as always going to see them,

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Speaker 1: how on the license in this market. I was in

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Speaker 1: the vite well on Friday and she couldn't make the

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Speaker 1: nine Inhestan show, So this was third choice for Lale.

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Speaker 1: Lolle with us this morning and I can share it

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Speaker 1: with you. Thanks. A lot of fund manager joined us

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Speaker 1: right now, A lot of great to catch up. You've

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Speaker 1: got that dashboard you're looking at high you'd spreads. We've

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Speaker 1: had a move about forty basis points over the last

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Speaker 1: week or so. When does it start to say by

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Speaker 1: again to you? Well, I was just gonna pitch for

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Speaker 1: Tom's triple lovered cash funds over here. Is that what

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Speaker 1: you're doing cash? No? No, I mean we we're keeping

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Speaker 1: our cash reserves. Right. The reality is cash is king. Right.

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Speaker 1: Don't let anybody tell you anything else, because as you

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Speaker 1: and I we've spoken about this, there's no such thing

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Speaker 1: as cash on the sidelines, and liquidity in the markets

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Speaker 1: are poor. So for people to be opportunistic to take

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Speaker 1: advantage of these locations, you have to have cash, whether

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Speaker 1: that's cash or you're sitting in treasuries. You need to

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Speaker 1: have something that's immediately sellable, and unfortunately, credit is not

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Speaker 1: one of the those asset classes. So the way we

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Speaker 1: are looking at it is really in our view, high

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Speaker 1: yield still screens expensive. But the key theme in high

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Speaker 1: yield is played the refinancing. So these double bees and

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Speaker 1: single bees that are indefensive, that have yield to call paper,

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Speaker 1: that believe it or not, only maybe yields more than

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Speaker 1: five and a half percent. Five and a half percent

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Speaker 1: coupon is now quote unquote high coupon. They are in

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Speaker 1: the market to refinance. And I think for us that

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Speaker 1: the last hurrah in high yield to capture a little

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Speaker 1: bit more income than investment grade before perhaps we turn

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Speaker 1: even more barish on high yield it's subject economic recovery. Solanly,

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Speaker 1: you would turn even more barish. What kind of spread

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Speaker 1: are you looking for on high yield potentially at the moment,

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Speaker 1: at the moment where about five forty, what kind of

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Speaker 1: levels are you waiting for? Well, five forty it's it's misleading, right,

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Speaker 1: It has you know, it has double bees that trade

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Speaker 1: in two hundred and three hundred range that everybody else

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Speaker 1: is hiding out, and none of you have the industries

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Speaker 1: that are at the epicenter of recovery, leisure, entertainment, transportation

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Speaker 1: that trades you know, multiples of that, right, So half

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Speaker 1: of the high yield index is subject to the recovery.

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Speaker 1: So you have to be really careful how you how

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Speaker 1: you pick your spots in this I mean the example

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Speaker 1: I'll give you. You You just said the high yield markets

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Speaker 1: are wider by forty and fifty basis points over the

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Speaker 1: last week the recovery themes last week wide and three

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Speaker 1: x that. Right, So when you are entering at this

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Speaker 1: point in time, knowing what you know, you have to

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Speaker 1: be really careful because the upside downside is just not

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Speaker 1: um justified. So fair value high yield believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: I think it's still in the seven hundreds. Well, this

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Speaker 1: raises a really good point which John touchdown earlier, which

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Speaker 1: is the market is wondering what more the FED could

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Speaker 1: do to backstop credit given how much they've done already.

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Speaker 1: And have we reached this point, Lolly where any FED

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Speaker 1: put is baked dan and any additional purchases they do

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Speaker 1: will be peripheral and won't make a material difference and

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Speaker 1: spread spread narrowing. I mean, the market will respond to

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Speaker 1: incremental news as you guys highlight. So I think the

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Speaker 1: FED what is baked in's I mean, you know that

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Speaker 1: their purchases have slowed down, but that's in line with

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Speaker 1: their statement um and I think there will be there

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Speaker 1: to backstop the market. But remember they're actually redumpantly back

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Speaker 1: stopping investment grade. They are back stopping high yield very little.

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Speaker 1: Through the high yield e t f s and the

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Speaker 1: fallen angels. That's a very different dynamic, and again it

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Speaker 1: opened the refinancing gates for the higher quality. There's very

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Speaker 1: little near term maturity that's left for the high yield

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Speaker 1: companies if anything. Actually, look at the headlines in the

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Speaker 1: last two weeks. The quality companies are going for M

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Speaker 1: and A LBO and strategic financing, so credit nobody works

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Speaker 1: for the bond holders, right, everybody works for the equity holders.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the risk you take now on

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Speaker 1: the higher quality the the focus is going to shift.

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Speaker 1: What's so important here, folks, is the bloomer has got

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Speaker 1: lots of fancy stuff that Lolly is really good at.

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Speaker 1: One of them is eh Z one, the horizon analysis chart. Lolly,

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Speaker 1: I just put in the thing Pararell bought a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, which is a ninety eight year Austrian

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Speaker 1: peace and he's made a hundred and twenty one percent.

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Speaker 1: That's why Pharaoll is looking and nodding. Hill. I mean

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Speaker 1: he's killed it with that Austrian by a hundred d

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Speaker 1: I think two eleven. Then rates will go the other way.

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Speaker 1: Explain to our audience what happens if we actually get

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Speaker 1: yield up priced down? What does that do to the

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Speaker 1: horizon analysis? I mean that's the problem with the Broidery

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Speaker 1: investment grade markets, right, I mean the lower coupons met

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Speaker 1: every company was issuing longer and longer, and as a results,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is also one of Lisa's

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Speaker 1: favorite charts. If you'll look at the average ration in

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Speaker 1: the in the indices in the global agg indusees, it's

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Speaker 1: over eight and a half years. And look at the

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Speaker 1: spreads which are not tight, divide on by the two

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Speaker 1: you your break even point, and if you look at

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Speaker 1: it historically, it's around twelve basis points on the break

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Speaker 1: even point. That is your resistance point. And some of

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Speaker 1: these investment grade companies, you're not getting paid for the

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Speaker 1: credit risk, so increasingly you're taking not only credit risk,

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Speaker 1: but you're all taking a rate risk, and that could

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Speaker 1: be very dangerous. Now, rates may never rise, that's entirely possible,

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Speaker 1: but people have to walk into this trade eyes wide open,

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Speaker 1: just to find a question. For me, when you say

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Speaker 1: seven hundred basis points fair value? Is that what you

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Speaker 1: just think fair value is or what you think spreads

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Speaker 1: are going? Always the tricky questions, Um, I think that's

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Speaker 1: where the spreads should be going. If the economic recovery

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen, vaccine doesn't turn out to be anything in

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Speaker 1: it an immediate catalyst some of these industries, and that

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Speaker 1: fifty percent cohort that I've talked about in the high

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Speaker 1: yield industry. They are structurally and secularly challenge. They're gonna run.

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Speaker 1: They're either gonna go out of business or they're gonna

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Speaker 1: run at fifty capacity, which means you have to start

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Speaker 1: baking in capital impairment to the bonds which are not

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Speaker 1: being baked in at this point in time. A lot

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Speaker 1: of writes to catch up. As always, always enjoy catching up.

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Speaker 1: J O. H. C. M Alright's right now from the

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Speaker 1: second District in Arkansas. This week of politics. We love

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Speaker 1: speaking to the Vanderbilt economist French Hill. He joins us,

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Speaker 1: of course from Arkansas, from a place that is very

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Speaker 1: much pro h this President french show, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about the Delta Bank of Arkansas. You are a

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Speaker 1: banker at heart. What do you do when somebody comes

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Speaker 1: in with loan documents like what the New York Times

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Speaker 1: is saying of the President. I mean, this is odd

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Speaker 1: financial statements, to say the least, to forget about the morality.

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Speaker 1: The Congressman Waltz of Florida was talking about just on

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Speaker 1: a sheered doing business. Have you ever done a business

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Speaker 1: someone like the President of the United States? Well, Tom,

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Speaker 1: good morning, thanks for having me. When you look at

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Speaker 1: real estate investors. Our tax code really encourages real estate

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Speaker 1: investment and treats it quite favorably. And when you make

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Speaker 1: real estate loans and review financial statements of somebody who's

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Speaker 1: a real estate developer, then you're gonna be looking at

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Speaker 1: cat's love and how cash is being used because there

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Speaker 1: are very few reported profits in a lot of real

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Speaker 1: estate companies, particularly use partnership or do a lot of

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Speaker 1: upfront costs and a lot of upfront development every year.

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Speaker 1: It's that development trail that causes those a lot of

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Speaker 1: those tax offsets for the net profits. Will you expect

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Speaker 1: to see the Vice President Mr Biden really be aggressive

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Speaker 1: about this tomorrow night. Does he use this as a

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Speaker 1: weapon or does he move on to the topics that

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Speaker 1: matter nationally into your second congressional district of Arkansas. I

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Speaker 1: think Vice President Batt Biden will go on the attack

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Speaker 1: and contrast strongly the things he disagrees with with the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration. I think he'll probably stick to policy. But

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Speaker 1: since he uh opened up yesterday in Wilmington's with the

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Speaker 1: healthcare topic, I think that will be a principal topic

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Speaker 1: because of the Supreme Court nomination, because of the efforts

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Speaker 1: to change Obamacare that we've made in the Congress over

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Speaker 1: the last few years. But I don't put it past

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden from talking taxes, Congressman. While we'd wait for

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Speaker 1: November three to come around, there's a question about what

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Speaker 1: will happen after that date, and Mitch McConnell, UH Senate

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Speaker 1: leader has come out and said that there will be

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Speaker 1: an orderly and peaceful transition of power. What will you

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Speaker 1: do if you agree with Mitch McConnell about that, if

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Speaker 1: President Trump does not concede or is unwilling to go

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Speaker 1: along with a peaceful transfer of power. We know all

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Speaker 1: of our elections are controlled by our states. I think

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Speaker 1: Americans who were actively watching the presidential election watch that

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Speaker 1: play out in UH two thousand with Gore v. Bush

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Speaker 1: and the efforts in Florida to recount ballots. So this

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Speaker 1: will play out state by state. I too expect that

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Speaker 1: we'll have a peaceful transfer of power and the inauguration

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Speaker 1: of Donald Trump on the twentie of January. But look,

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Speaker 1: this is going to have some challenges potentially in the states,

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Speaker 1: and we'll just have to wait and see how that goes.

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Speaker 1: There are lawyers on both sides to make sure every

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Speaker 1: American vote counts. I would just emerge Americans to vote

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Speaker 1: early and mail their ballot early so that there's no

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Speaker 1: controversy at that their vote will be accounted if they're

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Speaker 1: going to vote absentee, okay, but absent faith alone faith

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Speaker 1: in the peaceful transfer. Are you making any preparations or

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Speaker 1: other lawmakers, Republicans in particular, making preparations in the case

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Speaker 1: that there is not likely to be a peaceful transfer

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Speaker 1: of power, Not that I'm aware of a because I

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Speaker 1: don't think anybody expects that to be the case. I

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Speaker 1: think people expect the vote to come in and be

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Speaker 1: counted and that we'll have a new president in January.

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Speaker 1: French Hill, I want to talk to you about stimulus.

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Speaker 1: Is a wide presumption they'll be stimulus after the first

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Speaker 1: of the year. It's been a you know, by all accounts,

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Speaker 1: a disaster. Certainly, Jerome Powell suggests it's a disaster that

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Speaker 1: we haven't seen a stimulus. What kind of stimulus would

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Speaker 1: be most efficacious for whomever wins the presidency? What's needed

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Speaker 1: right now? Yeah, Well, when you see the functioning of

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Speaker 1: the markets and the access to both large corporations and

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Speaker 1: public finance, enter these to be able to attack funding

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Speaker 1: in the markets. It's really a small business that operates

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Speaker 1: in the realm that's still struggling. Either it's a closed

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Speaker 1: down economy by state decision, or they're in a market

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Speaker 1: like restaurants or hospitality that are still struggling. So for me,

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Speaker 1: the most important thing is to extend the paycheck protection program.

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Speaker 1: We have a hundred and thirty eight billion dollars not

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Speaker 1: spending that program already appropriated that's been blocked by the

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Speaker 1: negotiations between Speaker Pelosi and the Treasury Secretary. We have

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Speaker 1: a discharge petition on the House floor this week to

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Speaker 1: try to get that bill through the House and over

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Speaker 1: to the Senate with two hundred and eight keeen votes

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Speaker 1: at least in the House. So I think small business

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Speaker 1: is where I would focus that stimulus. UH Tom, and

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Speaker 1: also families. We've only clawed back about fifty of the

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Speaker 1: jobs back from UH the sharp decline in April, and

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Speaker 1: therefore we need to have a compromise on both the

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Speaker 1: unemployment compensation issue and any other sport support for our families. Congressman,

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Speaker 1: lucky to have you on the show this morning, looking forwards,

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Speaker 1: getting you back. Compressman finch Hill that joining us on

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Speaker 1: the latest effort down in d C on the fiscal side,

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Speaker 1: and on that report from the New York Times, this

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Speaker 1: is buried. I think it sounded likeke pag ninety who

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Speaker 1: of Trump Nation, they art of being the Donald Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: I think people are tired of seeing the negative. You know,

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons my book sell is because they're positive.

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Speaker 1: People don't want to read about a negative Trump. I

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Speaker 1: really believe that. And of course the language spoken to

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Speaker 1: Timothy O'Brien, he is with Bloomberg opinion, of course, acclaimed

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Speaker 1: at the New York Times for years, and we are

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Speaker 1: thrilled that he has been a first call to us

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Speaker 1: today as he's been very busy with perspective on the

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Speaker 1: presidents of finances and of course perspective on the journalism

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Speaker 1: of the New York Times. Tim O'Brien I spoke to

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Speaker 1: a Congressman green Beret from Boynton Beach today who explained

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Speaker 1: away these challenges and said everybody has a right to

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Speaker 1: avoid taxes. And I give the Times tim O'Brien great

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Speaker 1: credit because that's exactly what they said. Is tax avoidance bad? Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are there are legal perfectly to go

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Speaker 1: ways to avoid taxes. Tom, I think, Um, looking at

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Speaker 1: this simply through the lens of whether or not it's

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Speaker 1: legally allowed, I think puts the conversation in the wrong place. Um.

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Speaker 1: The problem we have is whether or not everyone in

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Speaker 1: our society, our neighbors, and everyone else in this community

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Speaker 1: pays their fair share. It also matters that the president

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Speaker 1: United States, who engineered the most massive tax cut of

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Speaker 1: the post World War two era but largely benefited affluent

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Speaker 1: taxpayers in corporate America, turns out to have only paid

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Speaker 1: seven fifty dollars in taxes a year he was elected president. So, Tim,

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Speaker 1: given the exhaustive reporting of the New York Times, what

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Speaker 1: are some of the risks that you think are posed

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Speaker 1: to this presidency? Uh? From his perhaps you know, from

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Speaker 1: his tax history. I guess, well, you know what I say,

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Speaker 1: I think, Paul, you know they put they put a

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Speaker 1: lot of clothing on themes we've already known in the

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Speaker 1: past about Trump, that that he's he's he's a haphazard businessman.

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Speaker 1: Uh and and a serial bankruptcy artist. Um that's made

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Speaker 1: real in their numbers. But I think this has been

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Speaker 1: known about him for a long time. What I think

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Speaker 1: wasn't known currently was the extent to which this vice

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Speaker 1: of debt is possibly closing around him right now, given

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Speaker 1: that he's in businesses like real estate and travel that

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Speaker 1: are getting crunched by the pandemic and under durest. As

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Speaker 1: a president who has to face a choice with neither

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Speaker 1: selling assets or getting alone, possibly compromises foreign policy or

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Speaker 1: domestic policy in order to keep his business as afloat.

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Speaker 1: And that's always been the question around Trump. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: Times estimates Trump has north of four million dollars in debt.

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Speaker 1: I think it's actually easily north of a billion. And uh,

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Speaker 1: and he's going to be hard pressed financially in coming years. Tim,

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Speaker 1: in your litigation with Donald Trump, you got some access

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Speaker 1: to his financial records. Is there anything in the Times

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Speaker 1: reporting that surprises you? Uh? You know, honestly, nothing in

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Speaker 1: the Time support report surprises me. But that's not to

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Speaker 1: take away from what a tour to force it is.

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Speaker 1: Because they put it all in one place. They got

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Speaker 1: years and years that no one else including me, has

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Speaker 1: ever gotten, and it's been and they've made it into

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Speaker 1: a public document. I wasn't able to do that. I

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Speaker 1: think the thing that surprises me. I guess the most

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Speaker 1: in there is um this flagrant disconnect between what his

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Speaker 1: taxes absolutely show and how he misleads and lies about

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Speaker 1: them in public routinely and has been since. Tim O'Brien

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Speaker 1: is one paragraph, and folks, I can't say enough about

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Speaker 1: how the time's been over backward to provide perspective and context.

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Speaker 1: They look at all the other rich people the point

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Speaker 1: oh o one per cent the thousands of Americans, one

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Speaker 1: one of Americans. I think that math is and and

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Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien, the average rate of those fancy people is

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Speaker 1: a twenty four percent tax. Do you perceive that he's

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Speaker 1: literally an outlier in his tax avoidance or could you

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Speaker 1: say right now there's ten twenty other people like him

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Speaker 1: out there? Well, he's an outlier. I don't know many

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Speaker 1: how many other people are like him out there. But

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Speaker 1: over a twenty year period, Donald Trump paid four hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollars less in taxes than his peers in the

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Speaker 1: same tax bracket. So he's clearly not paying what even

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Speaker 1: his affluent UH competitors and friends are paying. So to

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Speaker 1: your point earlier to Paul Sweeney's a good question. Very quickly,

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Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien you talk about the way he's presented his finances.

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Speaker 1: Is he in trouble with fraud with all your research?

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Speaker 1: Is he trouble with the idea of not being all

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Speaker 1: correct with banking relationships and such. He's under investigation right

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Speaker 1: now by the Manhattan US Manhattan District Attorney for possible

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Speaker 1: tax and accounting fraud and campaign finance rod. So, of course,

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Speaker 1: is an issue about whether or not he's been above

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Speaker 1: board all these years. Seventy thou dollars. The style is here.

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Speaker 1: You and I don't have that problem, Tom, No, No,

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Speaker 1: we don't. Tim O'Brien, thank you. I just want to

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Speaker 1: say Mr O'Brien folks started his day with us way

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Speaker 1: way back at five or six o'clock, and we really

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Speaker 1: appreciate his effort today and his expertise. I really can't

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Speaker 1: say enough about Trump Nation. You know, you say it's dated, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know what, It's a snapshot into a pre presidency Trump.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and

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Speaker 1: listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whichever podcast

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Speaker 1: platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom Keane before

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Speaker 1: the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Radio