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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

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Speaker 2: I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this

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Speaker 2: is Deo Therapists. This week, a man struggles to trust

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Speaker 2: his wife again after she has an affair.

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Speaker 3: She said, I'm sorry for everything I've done. I know

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Speaker 3: you were hurt. I would like to work it out

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Speaker 3: with you. Could you give me a chance? I said,

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Speaker 3: why do you want to come back?

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Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.

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Speaker 2: Deo Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute

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Speaker 2: medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 2: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

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Speaker 2: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions

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Speaker 2: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partner

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Speaker 2: and full and we may edit it for length and

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Speaker 2: or clarity.

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Speaker 1: Hi Laurie, Hi Guy.

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Speaker 2: So this week we have another letter about infidelity, but

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Speaker 2: this one is about the attempt to repair, and it

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Speaker 2: goes like this, Dear therapists. I caught my wife of

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Speaker 2: thirteen years cheating. At first, we agree to separate and

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Speaker 2: we're going through the early stages of divorce. We also

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Speaker 2: have two children, and after gaining some perspective on my

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Speaker 2: life and navigating through the darkness of the pain, eight

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Speaker 2: months later, she wanted to come back. I have since

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Speaker 2: taken her back, and I know that my children are

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Speaker 2: happier than I am too. Yet I often go into

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Speaker 2: moments of trust issues and feeling uncertain about myself. Will

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Speaker 2: this feeling go away? What suggestions do you have to

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Speaker 2: cope with these issues of trust? Thank you, Scott.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that Scott wrote to us because so many

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Speaker 1: people think that once there's infidelity, that relationships aren't repairable.

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Speaker 1: And he's saying, listen, we really want to work this out.

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Speaker 1: I am happier having her back here. She is happier,

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Speaker 1: kids are happier. We want to make this work, but

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Speaker 1: we're not quite sure how to do that. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's important for people to see that there can

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Speaker 1: be a path forward. Depending on the circumstances of.

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Speaker 2: All the couples I've seen that came to work on

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Speaker 2: their relationship after an affair. The vast majority really do

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Speaker 2: fix their relationship and stay together, and many of them

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Speaker 2: the relationship becomes stronger and even happier. Of course, this

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Speaker 2: is the majority of people who together are coming to

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Speaker 2: see me too intentionally work on fixing it. So that's

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Speaker 2: definitely a pre co contion that both people have to

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Speaker 2: be intent on doing that. But it's very possible to

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Speaker 2: repair a relationship after an affair, depending on the circumstances

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Speaker 2: and the people.

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Speaker 1: That's right. You can't heal a relationship on your own.

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Speaker 1: So let's go talk to Scott and see what's going

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Speaker 1: on with him and his wife. Yes, you're listening to

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist from my Heart Radio. We'll be back after

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Speaker 1: a quick break.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Winch and this is

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Speaker 2: deo Therapist Scott. Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, nice to be here.

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Speaker 1: Hi Scott, Hello.

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Speaker 2: We'd love to start by hearing a little bit of

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Speaker 2: background about the marriage and then how you discovered the affairs,

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Speaker 2: what happened thereafter.

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Speaker 3: I've been married for thirteen years. We have two children,

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Speaker 3: an eleven and a nine year old a year ago,

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Speaker 3: she was working. She had told me early on in

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Speaker 3: the day that she had a dinner appointment with some clients,

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Speaker 3: so she would be late. And it was like nine

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Speaker 3: thirty and I was calling her and there was just nothing,

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Speaker 3: even text messages. So I used the feature on the

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Speaker 3: phone called Find my Friends, and she was in a

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Speaker 3: residential area and I just dismissed it as a computer

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Speaker 3: glitch on there. Well, it kept showing up and I

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Speaker 3: was fixated on it. I kept looking at it and

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Speaker 3: it was still there. Eventually I did get a call

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Speaker 3: back and she says, I'm coming home, but I'm following

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Speaker 3: her also on the app, and I see the car

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Speaker 3: drive right by our apartment and go to a mall

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Speaker 3: restaurant area. And then I got another call later on

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Speaker 3: at the restaurant saying all right, no, no, I'm really

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Speaker 3: leaving now, And in about another ten minutes she arrived home.

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Speaker 3: So I just said, hey, where have you been, And

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Speaker 3: she's like, I was at a restaurant with clients. And

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Speaker 3: then I said, I was on Find my Friend and

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Speaker 3: I saw that you were at this location. Honestly, Becky,

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Speaker 3: could you just tell me what's going on? She straight

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Speaker 3: up said I'm sorry I was with someone. I think

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Speaker 3: she might have even said I've been cheating or something

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Speaker 3: like that. It was just a lot of denial on

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Speaker 3: my part. No, no, I can't believe it, and we

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Speaker 3: talked a lot that night. Yet it was very messy

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Speaker 3: in the sense that this person that she was seeing

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Speaker 3: she worked with, and apparently this language school that our

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Speaker 3: kids were going to, this guy kids went to that school.

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Speaker 1: Scott, did you suspect that she had been having an

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Speaker 1: affair before that night? Was this a complete shock to

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Speaker 1: you or was there a part of you that maybe

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Speaker 1: thought something might have been going on, or when she

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Speaker 1: said it, you thought, oh, this makes sense now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I had suspicions. There were times when I went

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Speaker 3: out with friends and she would say, well, then does

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Speaker 3: that mean can I just go out with other people too?

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Speaker 3: What if it was a date? You know, just kind

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Speaker 3: of remarks.

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Speaker 1: So she didn't trust you. She was making a joke

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Speaker 1: that as if you were on it.

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Speaker 3: Right, Because I often went out with friends, and some

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Speaker 3: of them were female friends, there were guys there too,

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Speaker 3: and during those moments she would say things like, well,

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Speaker 3: could I go on a date? I'm like, no, I'm

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Speaker 3: not doing that. I'm not okay with that.

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Speaker 2: Did that signal to you the fact that she was

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Speaker 2: asking permission for herself? Maybe there's an issue that we

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Speaker 2: need to talk about. Is everything okay in a relationship?

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Speaker 2: Was there a conversation like that that you had with

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Speaker 2: her at that time?

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Speaker 3: There was no conversation after that about that situation?

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Speaker 1: Can you take us back a little farther? You said

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Speaker 1: you've been married for thirteen years. What was the communication

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Speaker 1: like between you before this? Because when you talk about

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Speaker 1: the interaction about the comment about the date, seems like

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Speaker 1: neither of you was willing to say, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: what are we really talking about here? How do you

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Speaker 1: think the communication was before all this happened.

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Speaker 3: I feel I'm a pretty good communicator. I like to talk,

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Speaker 3: I like to spend time kind of looking at a situation.

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Speaker 3: She often says, Oh, it's another lecture. Here we go.

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Speaker 3: She's often looking at the clock, going have you made

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Speaker 3: your point? Are we done? And so it always leaves

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Speaker 3: me with a kind of bad taste Scott.

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Speaker 2: Usually when someone responds like Becky was responding, it's a

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Speaker 2: sign that she feels that you're doing perhaps too much

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Speaker 2: talking and not enough listening. In those conversations. Were you

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Speaker 2: asking her questions? Were you're giving her a chance to

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Speaker 2: voice things?

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Speaker 3: It does sound like I was doing most of the talking.

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Speaker 3: I feel I've given her the opportunity to talk. She

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Speaker 3: said stuff, but there's no elaboration on it.

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Speaker 1: Before this happened. What were the things that she did

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Speaker 1: tell you when she did speak up in whatever conversations

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Speaker 1: you had over those thirteen years.

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Speaker 3: I think one thing that really hurt our relationship was

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Speaker 3: our children in regards to putting them through private schools.

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Speaker 3: I'm a teacher, but she came from a very different philosophy.

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Speaker 3: That's just a lot of wasted money, and it's putting

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Speaker 3: some stress on us, and so those kind of discussions

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Speaker 3: would be very heated and there was no compromise at

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Speaker 3: the end. That's when I said I'm going to do this,

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Speaker 3: and we got a little help from my parents just

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Speaker 3: with money.

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Speaker 2: I just want to go back to that night where

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Speaker 2: she comes home and she's telling you that she's been

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Speaker 2: having this affair. Did she say how long it was

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Speaker 2: for that this has been going on? Did you ask?

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Speaker 3: So it's been going on steadily for most of her

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Speaker 3: time at this company. She was promoted and she had

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Speaker 3: to move to a downtown branch. It was very stressful

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Speaker 3: for her. She really didn't like the job, and I

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Speaker 3: guess that's when she started having conversations with this person.

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Speaker 1: And how long ago was that.

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Speaker 3: I would say that was going on for about four months.

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Speaker 3: And she told me that her co worker saw her

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Speaker 3: crying and this guy was a person who she ended

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Speaker 3: up talking with day after day, and that's when the

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Speaker 3: relationship started. So I found that out and a lot

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Speaker 3: of other things clicked into place. She would go to

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Speaker 3: the beach with my kids and she would be like, no,

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Speaker 3: you don't need to go, and I thought that was

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Speaker 3: a little weird. The kids ended up telling me they

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Speaker 3: would see this person there. Anyway, That night was very difficult,

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Speaker 3: and I wanted to work it out. I believed we

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Speaker 3: could work it out.

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Speaker 2: Was she apologizing? Was she promising she wouldn't see this

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Speaker 2: person again? In otherwise? What reassurances was she giving you

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Speaker 2: that you wanted to look it up?

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Speaker 3: No, that that was the toughest part. She realized that

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Speaker 3: she did something wrong, but it didn't seem to me

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Speaker 3: like she wanted to work this out. The next day,

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Speaker 3: the kids had language school, and I said, you're going

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Speaker 3: to go see this guy there, right, please let him

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Speaker 3: know everything that went on and that this is over.

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Speaker 1: Scott, when you asked her to tell the guy it

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Speaker 1: was over, had she indicated to you that she was

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Speaker 1: ready to end the affair or was this again sort

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Speaker 1: of like the private school thing of this is what

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Speaker 1: I want and this is how we're going to do it.

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Speaker 3: I would say it's more that I was just thinking

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Speaker 3: of everything our kids, to myself and just everything in

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Speaker 3: our family, and I just couldn't believe that that was

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Speaker 3: going on. Just going back and thinking about it, I

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Speaker 3: definitely pushed her hard to make that decision.

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Speaker 1: Well, it doesn't sound like she made that decision. It

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Speaker 1: sounds like you were asking her to do something that

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Speaker 1: she hadn't come to a place of deciding. Yet, You're right,

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Speaker 1: and I just want to say we understand how hard

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Speaker 1: this is and how much your life got up ended

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Speaker 1: in that moment when she came home, and even the

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Speaker 1: denial before that, where the kids would say, oh, there

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Speaker 1: was this other guy at the beach, and you didn't inquire, well,

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Speaker 1: who is this guy at the beach when my wife

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Speaker 1: said not to come. So I think that veil of

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Speaker 1: denial was pierced that night, and then you had the

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Speaker 1: reaction many people have, which is, let's just fix this

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Speaker 1: and put an end to it without really exploring does

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Speaker 1: the other person want to fix it? Where are they

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Speaker 1: with it? And it's so hard. So we have so

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Speaker 1: much empathy for what that must have been like. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, we want you to just notice

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Speaker 1: because I know you're trying to repair this. How sometimes

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Speaker 1: you have an idea about something, whether it's private school

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Speaker 1: or ending the affair, that she might not quite be

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Speaker 1: on board with, and it just echoes that sentiment that

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that she had sometimes of like are you

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Speaker 1: done with the lecture? And I want to be clear

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Speaker 1: too that you are not to blame for the affair.

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Speaker 1: Nobody causes someone to have an affair. They make a

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Speaker 1: decision that that is how they're going to handle whatever

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Speaker 1: they're experiencing. It is not the other person's fault that

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Speaker 1: they decided to handle it that way. There are many

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Speaker 1: ways to handle difficulties in relationships. Having an affair is

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Speaker 1: not one that somebody forces somebody.

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Speaker 3: To have, thank you, Okay.

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Speaker 2: It's got to add one thing to that. It's a

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Speaker 2: very strong tendency people have when they're blindsided and heartbroken

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Speaker 2: by finding out in the moment that the partner had

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Speaker 2: an affair to do what you did intil of saying okay,

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Speaker 2: then we need to do ABCDE to fix it. It

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Speaker 2: not only doesn't find out where Becky is in terms

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Speaker 2: of whether she's willing to do that, it gives her

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Speaker 2: an easy out in terms of having to really do

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Speaker 2: the reckoning and really do the exploration. She can just

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Speaker 2: say okay, fine and agree to something without even fully

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Speaker 2: agreeing to it, and so it actually lets the other

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Speaker 2: person off the hook when you make those decisions, when

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Speaker 2: the impetus for repair, the need to want to put

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Speaker 2: things together has to come from the other person, and

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Speaker 2: by giving them all the answers, you prevent that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, she took a long time to get

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Speaker 3: back home and she wasn't picking up again. So I

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Speaker 3: drove to the parking lot and saw our other car

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Speaker 3: there and I walked over and she was crying. Actually,

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Speaker 3: she was still on the phone with him, and I

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Speaker 3: kind of looked at her and said, what what's going on?

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Speaker 3: And she said something like I'm I'm sorry, And so

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Speaker 3: in my head, I guess I thought it was over.

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Speaker 3: She was definitely crying and said the next day, I

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Speaker 3: tried to do things that she said she wanted to do.

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Speaker 3: I was like, let's go hiking, let's take the kids

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Speaker 3: hiking Scott.

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Speaker 1: In your mind, you thought I'll do things that she

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Speaker 1: likes to do and then we'll just move past this.

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Speaker 1: Or did you think that there would be a process

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Speaker 1: by which you had to understand what had happened with

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Speaker 1: her with you with the relationship in your mind, how

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Speaker 1: are you going to recover from this as a couple.

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Speaker 3: I did think that therapy would be very important. We've

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Speaker 3: never done anything like that before. So I got a

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Speaker 3: recommendation of a therapist and told her, let's do this,

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Speaker 3: and we went and in general it was okay until

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Speaker 3: the discussion of school came up again, and she got

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Speaker 3: very angry afterwards and said I don't want to see

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Speaker 3: her again. By then we had been going for almost

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Speaker 3: two or three weeks. She was sad, was crying here

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Speaker 3: and there. Shortly after, it was Valentine's Day. I wanted

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Speaker 3: to surprise her because she always said, I'm really hungry

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Speaker 3: at work, So I decided I would go to a

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Speaker 3: coffee store, get her some coffee and a sandwich, and

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Speaker 3: I did drove over. She wasn't there for almost twenty

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Speaker 3: to thirty minutes, and then she finally showed up, very

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Speaker 3: surprised to see me, and that's when I saw that

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Speaker 3: she was with this guy again.

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Speaker 2: If I were listening to who did what after that

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Speaker 2: first night, if I just listened to which of you

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Speaker 2: took which actions, which of you said what, I would

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Speaker 2: have guessed you were the one that had the affair,

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Speaker 2: because you were the one that was trying to convince

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Speaker 2: her to stay, to repair, to work. You were taking

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Speaker 2: all the initiative, I'll do this for her, I'll find

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Speaker 2: a therapist. These are the actions usually the person who's

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Speaker 2: trying to make up for the affair to convince the

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Speaker 2: other person that they want to repair does. And I'm

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Speaker 2: pointing that out because when you're trying to fight for

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Speaker 2: your marriage, you cannot do it by yourself, and your

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Speaker 2: tendency is to try and do things without her and

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Speaker 2: then to get her agreement to the plan you've laid out.

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Speaker 2: And that is not true partnering. It's not really working

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Speaker 2: with her, it's not really seeing where she is. You're

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Speaker 2: hoping that she'll want to be back in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: You're pushing and trying to convince her to do that,

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Speaker 2: but you're not actually waiting to inquire understand whether she

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Speaker 2: is willing able wanting to do that, and.

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Speaker 1: Going along with what guy said this whole time that

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Speaker 1: she was crying. I don't think that you wanted to

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Speaker 1: understand why she was crying. And I don't think she

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Speaker 1: was at this place where she knew that she wanted

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Speaker 1: to fix the marriage. That was something you had decided.

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Speaker 1: And even when somebody is very clear I want to

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Speaker 1: fix the marriage, there is some loss and some grief

300
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Speaker 1: around the affair that they had to end, and it's

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Speaker 1: very hard for the person who was cheated on to

302
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Speaker 1: have any empathy for that or to even acknowledge it.

303
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Speaker 1: But she was very sad because she was getting something

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Speaker 1: from this relationship with this person that was meaningful to her,

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Speaker 1: as painful as it was for you. And then she

306
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Speaker 1: was being asked to give that up when it might

307
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Speaker 1: have felt like her lifeline at that time. And then

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Speaker 1: there's this guy who listens to her and she's probably

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Speaker 1: telling him how she feels all the time, and you're saying,

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Speaker 1: I want to save our marriage. I feel devastated by

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Speaker 1: the affair. Let me tell you all about how I'm feeling.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't sound like there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: curiosity around how are you feeling? Tell me what you're

314
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Speaker 1: crying about, Tell me what is making you sad. It

315
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Speaker 1: was let's go hiking, let me surprise you on Valentine's Day,

316
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Speaker 1: all very lovely things, but a misattunement to what she

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Speaker 1: was probably needing. Does that make sense at all now

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Speaker 1: given where you.

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Speaker 3: Are, Yeah, it does make a lot of sense. When

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Speaker 3: I asked her, she did say straight up, I miss him,

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Speaker 3: So you're right.

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Speaker 2: Did you ask her directly whether she wanted to give

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Speaker 2: up that relationship and work on the marriage and did

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Speaker 2: she own that directly explicitly at that time?

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Speaker 3: Honestly, I don't feel there was a full conviction behind it.

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Speaker 3: As I'm processing this with you, guys, like I very

327
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Speaker 3: much kind of written the paperwork there and she just

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Speaker 3: kind of checked the box.

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Speaker 2: And probably because part of you felt very worried that

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Speaker 2: if you do ask directly, she might just say, you

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Speaker 2: know what, no, so you avoided asking things that you

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Speaker 2: were afraid you'd hear the answer that you didn't want

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Speaker 2: to hear.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, I didn't want to believe that was

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Speaker 3: going to be an option for us and our family.

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Speaker 1: When she said after that couple session about the private schools,

337
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Speaker 1: that you didn't want to go back. It's very common

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00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,879
Speaker 1: for people who aren't really sure that they want to

339
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Speaker 1: be working on the marriage to find something about the

340
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Speaker 1: couple's work that they don't like and say I'm done,

341
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Speaker 1: just because they just don't want to live that double

342
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Speaker 1: life of inside, I don't know that I want to

343
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Speaker 1: be working on this, and then I have to go

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Speaker 1: to couple therapy and pretend that I'm invested in this.

345
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Speaker 1: And so people find a way to get rid of

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Speaker 1: that cognitive dissonance, and they generally find one comment, one

347
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: thing that is wrong with the therapy just so they

348
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: can get out of it so they don't have to

349
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Speaker 1: experience that every week.

350
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'll add this extra thing. After I had

351
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Speaker 3: caught her at work, I said, could I see your phone?

352
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Speaker 3: As she held on to it, and I just had

353
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Speaker 3: enough and left. But I wanted to confront this guy,

354
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Speaker 3: and I went in and I said, hey, do you

355
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Speaker 3: know who I am? I was very afraid, but I

356
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,439
Speaker 3: was running on adrenaline and he knew who I was,

357
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Speaker 3: and I said, do you know what you're doing to

358
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Speaker 3: my marriage? And he said, Becky told me that you

359
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,120
Speaker 3: guys are going through counseling, and he made it seem

360
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Speaker 3: like a joke. There was this kind of smirk on

361
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 3: his face. He is married, has two children. And he said, well,

362
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Speaker 3: if you want me to end this, ask Becky get

363
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Speaker 3: her on the phone now. I want to hear from

364
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Speaker 3: her that she doesn't want to be with me. And

365
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Speaker 3: I said, I'm not doing that and I walked out.

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Speaker 2: Did it register to you that moment that he seems

367
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Speaker 2: to be saying that with a certain amount of confidence

368
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Speaker 2: and knowing what Becky would say.

369
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Speaker 3: He was completely confident, and yeah.

370
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Speaker 2: So it occurred to you in that moment that she

371
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Speaker 2: indeed would make that choice.

372
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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think I always had that fear. And it

373
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 3: was that night when I confronted her about it. That

374
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 3: was Valentine's Day, and that's when I knew it was

375
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Speaker 3: absolutely over. When I asked her, do you still want

376
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Speaker 3: to make this work? And she basically said no, I'm done,

377
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Speaker 3: and we just started to move towards the official divorce.

378
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Speaker 1: I have a question about the person she was having

379
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Speaker 1: the affair with. When you were talking with him. Did

380
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,919
Speaker 1: he say that the plan for them was that he

381
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 1: was going to leave his marriage and they were going

382
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: to be together.

383
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 3: No, and I had also talked to Becky about that,

384
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 3: and she said that he was already on the outs

385
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Speaker 3: with his wife. She even told him at that point

386
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Speaker 3: that this is not perfect opportunity for us to be together.

387
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 3: And he was not sure at first, but eventually they

388
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 3: started to be together.

389
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Speaker 1: He told his wife about the affair.

390
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 3: No, No, till this day, she knows nothing about it.

391
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 2: So what did happen? How did you guys decide to

392
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 2: give it a try?

393
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 3: It was a good four or five months of divorce lawyers.

394
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Speaker 3: She had moved out, got her own apartment.

395
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Speaker 1: How did you tell the kids? Did they have any

396
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 1: idea what was going on?

397
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 3: They found out the following day.

398
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: The following day from when you discovered it.

399
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 3: I discovered it. I remember this vividly. My older son

400
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 3: screamed no, really loud. So she had told him despite

401
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:32,919
Speaker 3: the fact that I told her not to.

402
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 2: What did she tell him exactly?

403
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 3: She basically said that mom and dad are not really

404
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 3: in love. She didn't say she was with another man

405
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 3: per se, that we were just going to separate.

406
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 1: Scott. What I'm hearing here is that, on the one hand,

407
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: you had said to her, here's how we're going to

408
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 1: fix our marriage. Here are the steps we're going to take,

409
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 1: and then we're going to go hiking, and I'm going

410
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: to do these nice things for you. And at the

411
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: same time, she had told your children mom and dad

412
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 1: aren't in love anymore. So how did you reconcile that

413
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: in your mind of your idea that you were going

414
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 1: to fix the marriage. But her stating to the kids

415
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: something that I don't know if she said to you.

416
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: Did she say those words to you or did you

417
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: hear this through the kids that she was not in

418
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 1: love with you anymore.

419
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 3: Once I heard this kind of commotion going on, I

420
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 3: went to the scene and it all started to come out.

421
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 3: I was just shocked. I started adding, but we'll work

422
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 3: it out. There's a plan. Mommy's going to actually go

423
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: there now and say no.

424
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Speaker 1: She told them about the affair and with whom it was.

425
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, By then, when I had gone down, it all

426
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 3: kind of bubbled up. All of that bubbled up all

427
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 3: at once.

428
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a lot of information and eleven year olds

429
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 2: shouldn't have.

430
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 3: That's a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeap.

431
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: What I'm hearing is that she felt so unable to

432
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: commit unicate directly with you, And I want to be

433
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: clear that this is her issue. There was something going

434
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,239
Speaker 1: on in the marriage that made it hard for her,

435
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: but also it was her issue that she decided to

436
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: handle it this way where the only way she felt

437
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: she could be heard was to tell a child. The

438
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: only way she could say, here's how i'm really feeling.

439
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: The only place she had to go in your household

440
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: was to a child, which is of course completely inappropriate.

441
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: Because the way you responded made her think that you're

442
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 2: not listening, You're just focused on making this work when

443
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 2: she doesn't really want to.

444
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 3: I agree with that guy. I think that's exactly what

445
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 3: she was thinking. And what you said, Laurie, she probably

446
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 3: didn't feel like I just didn't want to believe there

447
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 3: was any other option except that we were going to

448
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 3: make it work. I did not want to face that reality.

449
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: So you went through four or five months of going

450
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: through the first stages of divorce, and then you got

451
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: back together. I'm curious to hear about getting back together,

452
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 2: and I'm curious because is this more of you convincing

453
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: her talking her into doing something that she's saying yes to,

454
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: but we're not quite sure whether her heart is behind it.

455
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,239
Speaker 2: How different was the round of getting back together than

456
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 2: what we've heard so far.

457
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the part that confuses me the most, honestly.

458
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 3: As the months went along and I was still trying

459
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: to reconcile, even though the divorce papers were on the way,

460
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 3: I said, look, we can still make this work. And

461
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 3: it was no. She was seeing this guy regularly, and

462
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 3: one day when she was coming to get the kids,

463
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 3: she was waiting downstairs and I texted, he's going to

464
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 3: be down soon, and the next thing I know, she

465
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 3: got in the apartment and she was right at the door.

466
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: By then, I had kind of re established my apartment

467
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 3: so I could kind of see it as MySpace because

468
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 3: I was still living in the same place we were living.

469
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 3: So I had this kind of mental thing where I

470
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 3: didn't want her in that space anymore. So I said,

471
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 3: please stay outside, and I more or less shut the

472
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 3: door on her, and eventually the kids were ready and

473
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: they left with her. But I started getting a lot

474
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 3: of messages that day and phone calls saying, look, I

475
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 3: know you don't want to talk to me, I know

476
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 3: you hate me all of that, but if you would

477
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 3: just let me talk to you, and I promise, if

478
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: you don't ever want to talk again, that's fine. And

479
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 3: I found that very intriguing, so I texted back, fine,

480
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: give me a call, and she did.

481
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: Did you think that she was going to come toward you?

482
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, since we've broken up, it was always very kurt, hostile,

483
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 3: so I was very intrigued with suddenly this kind of softer,

484
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 3: Please let me talk to you. And my therapist said,

485
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: you may never hear these words ever from her, but

486
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 3: she said, I'm sorry for everything I've done. I know

487
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 3: you were hurt. I would like to work it out

488
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 3: with you. Could you give me a chance. I was

489
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: shocked to hear that because I was in a place

490
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 3: where I didn't want to have anything to do with her.

491
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 3: It took me so long to get to that place,

492
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 3: and quite frankly, I wasn't even quite a hundred percent there,

493
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 3: and so when I heard that, I was shocked. And

494
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: it was the first time where I didn't have to

495
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 3: say anything and I was just listening to her because

496
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 3: she was just going, would you take me back? She

497
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 3: was asking all of this, so I didn't understand what happened.

498
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: Did you ask what happened?

499
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 3: I said, why do you want to come back? The

500
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: last time I saw you, I pushed you out. I

501
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 3: just don't understand this, she said. She talked with her

502
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 3: mom about things. Her mom suggested that this would be

503
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 3: your only chance if you wanted to have him back.

504
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: To ask now. Then a little deeper stuff came out.

505
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 3: She would often feel angry or sad if the guy

506
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 3: was with Sometimes she would be waiting for him and

507
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 3: he would be with his wife. There would be moments

508
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 3: when they were together and she just couldn't sleep. She

509
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 3: always had anxiety issues when she was around him. It

510
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,959
Speaker 3: wasn't as great as she thought it was, and that

511
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 3: she ultimately missed me. She even missed the lecture. She

512
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 3: said that I didn't understand it to honestly, you know,

513
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 3: when she.

514
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: Was with you, she used the other guy to complain

515
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: about you, and then when she became dissatisfied with him,

516
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: she called you and complained about him. And what I

517
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: would love to hear from her is not the other

518
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: guy disappointed me, it's I want to be.

519
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: With you, right. So I had talked to many of

520
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: my friends too, so When they heard about this, one

521
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 3: friend made sure to say, are you hearing that? Does

522
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 3: she want to be with you? And I did hear

523
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 3: it here and there, but I don't know if I

524
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: was completely convinced. I really told her, I can't take

525
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 3: you back until I think it feels right, and I'm

526
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 3: not sure. And that even gave her more anxiety. And

527
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: there was a point when I couldn't give her assurances

528
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: that I would take her back. She basically said, I'm

529
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 3: just going to go back to him because right now

530
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: this is adding to my anxiety. So I got a

531
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: little angry at that.

532
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: When you say got a little angry about that, are

533
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: you sure? It was a little, because basically what she's

534
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: saying is I can't tolerate being alone. Yeah, And so

535
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: I'm either going to pick him or I'm going to

536
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: pick you, because one of you is going to be

537
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: my anti anxiety medication.

538
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so I pretty much scoffed at it and

539
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 3: said okay. However, we continued to talk, and she wrote

540
00:29:55,280 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 3: me a letter saying everything, apologizing again. And it was

541
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: a nice.

542
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: Letter apologizing, yes, But how much was expressed in that

543
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: letter about I want to be with you as opposed

544
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: to not the other guy.

545
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 3: There was a lot about me.

546
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: What did she say?

547
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: She said, I miss you. She listed things that she

548
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 3: liked about me, like what things like. I like how

549
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 3: you care about the children and take care of everything

550
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: for me. You do care about me. You have a

551
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 3: sense of humor. I enjoy the hobbies that you have.

552
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 3: They're quirky but lovable. And there was a lot there

553
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 3: I felt, and I think that's why I still have it.

554
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 3: It's music that I go to every once in a

555
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 3: while when things go bad, and I sometimes remind her

556
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: about it. I said, he here's what you said, you know,

557
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: here's the letter. And in that letter she made promises

558
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 3: too that she would change. And if we wanted to

559
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: go to therapy, sure, she'll say things like if you pay,

560
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 3: i'll go. And I said, okay, that's fine. But it's

561
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: been a little reluctant on that part.

562
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: What I'm hearing is that she wants you to do

563
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: all the work. She'll show up, but you're going to

564
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: pay for it. You're gonna take responsibility for.

565
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: Her and thest you find you paid.

566
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: She's not saying I'm equally invested in repairing this marriage.

567
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: I don't hear that. I hear a lot of I

568
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: need to be taken care of, and so I'm gonna

569
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: pick Ham or I'm gonna pick you. He's not really

570
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: available because he's married and he's not gonna leave and

571
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: that makes me really mad. And you're available and we

572
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: have kids together, and you make me feel safe. But

573
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: I don't hear a lot of Wow, I really screwed

574
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: up here. I hurt you so badly. I want to

575
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: figure out what hasn't been working between us. I want

576
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: to figure out what's going on with me, what's going

577
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: on with you. Let's get to a therapist. Let's share

578
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: in this experience of repair. We're just pointing that out

579
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: because we want you to have your eyes open in

580
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: a way that maybe they hadn't been. Because as you

581
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: try to fix this together, the success of this endeavor

582
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: depends fully on how invested the two of you together

583
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: are in this and for the right reasons.

584
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, part of what motivated me to talk with you

585
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 3: is I often get into moments of depression and sadness

586
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 3: out of the blue. It just hits me. It's the

587
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 3: strangest things. My sons could be playing a game, a

588
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: word game, and the person's name kind of comes up

589
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 3: because it just so happens. The guy's name is a character.

590
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 3: Those kind of things trigger me. And there are moments

591
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: too when she notices that look on my face of

592
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 3: just kind of staring, maybe blankly, or it looks sad,

593
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 3: and she will come up and say, are you okay?

594
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 3: Is there do you want to talk about it? Is

595
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: there anything I can do?

596
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 2: And do you tell her yes? I would like to

597
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: talk about it, because Scott, I think that part of

598
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: your sadness is you decided to give it another goal.

599
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: You haven't done significant work to repair, to build trust,

600
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: to understand why the events happened and how you avoid

601
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: them going forward, and so fundamentally you feel insecure. You

602
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: mentioned trust in your letter, you don't have a lot

603
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: of grounds for the trust being restored. So she'll say,

604
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: are you okay? I want things to be okay. I'm

605
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: not yet hearing that she's actually willing to do the

606
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: work necessary to make them okay, and I'm not hearing

607
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: that you're insisting on that work either.

608
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: And what I hear both of you doing is you

609
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: ask a question that you already know what you want

610
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: the answer to be. So when she says are you okay?

611
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: The correct answer is for her, yes, I'm okay, but

612
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: the true answer is no, I'm not okay. Affairs can

613
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: cause profound emotional trauma. It's like PTSD. So you hear

614
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: the name of the person and all of a sudden

615
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: you're triggered and you're brought right back into that space.

616
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: That's a very typical reaction to a betrayal. And so

617
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: when she says are you okay, and if you say yeah, yeah,

618
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: I'm okay, that's you hiding from her. And I'll bet

619
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: there are times when she gives you an answer because

620
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: she knows that it is the expected answer as opposed

621
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: to the true answer. And if you guys, keep having

622
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 1: your communication go that way, you're not going to get

623
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: that deeper sense of who are we to each other,

624
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: what's going on individually with each other, Because if you

625
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: want to get closer, that's how you get closer. That's

626
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: how you make sure that neither of you goes and

627
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: does other things to deal with your emotions. When we

628
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: talk about trust, the trust that you really need to

629
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: restore is can we trust each other with who we

630
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: really are?

631
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 3: That makes sense, and we haven't been going deeper you

632
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 3: neled it.

633
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, My concern is that part of you doesn't yet

634
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: fully know if she's there because it's convenient, or if

635
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: she's there because she truly wants to repair for the

636
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: long term, and you haven't asked. And I think that

637
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 2: knowing that is causing you a ton of insecurity, a

638
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 2: ton of anxiety. It's making you feel depressed and uncertain

639
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 2: because everyone's going through the motions and it feels hollow.

640
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 2: This looks like a tableau of a family, but I

641
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 2: really don't know if it is, and you don't. My

642
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: question for you then, is are you at a place

643
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 2: where you're willing to go looking for the truth? Check

644
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 2: out the foundations here before you keep building.

645
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is safety in not pursuing the deeper conversation

646
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 3: because I'm afraid of what I might hear. I do

647
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 3: want to get to a point where I can go

648
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 3: deeper so I don't feel this way, so I can

649
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: have trust again.

650
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: For you to get to a place where you can

651
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: trust her, you also have to get to a place

652
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: where you are willing to ask questions, the answer to

653
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: which might be very upsetting, but you have to be

654
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: willing to ask the question. Okay, I'm asking is that

655
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: a risk you're willing to take to find out things

656
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: that you don't want to know?

657
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I'm afraid, but it's a risk I'm willing

658
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 3: to take.

659
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: Because the alternative is that not knowing leaves you vulnerable

660
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: to not only this question of infidelity, but it leaves

661
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: you vulnerable to this kind of empty marriage that you

662
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: won't really have a partner. She'll be there, but you're

663
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: going to feel very, very lonely and very lone.

664
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 2: I do want to ask one more thing, and that's

665
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 2: about has your sex life resumed and is that resumed

666
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: in a manner that's the same words, so better than

667
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 2: it was.

668
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 3: Yes, our sex life has resumed. Earlier on, it was

669
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: a bit harder for me. It's the thoughts that I had.

670
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: It was weird and even now sometimes during sex, I

671
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 3: can go someplace in my mind. And so, yeah, we're intimate,

672
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 3: but there are moments.

673
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 2: Do you talk about it when that happens? No, she

674
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 2: sees it, but she just keeps going.

675
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 3: She knows, but again we don't talk about it.

676
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: Can I ask why what you're afraid of would happen

677
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: if you did tell her? Hey, this is what's happening

678
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: for me right now.

679
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 3: I am afraid she's going to get angry. I'm afraid

680
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 3: she's going to say I've said I'm sorry.

681
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: Is there affection between you just in moments during the day,

682
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: Is just one of you reach out with the other

683
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: person's hand, and who initiates that?

684
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 3: I do that all the time. I laugh because I'm

685
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 3: always the one saying, could you hold my hand when

686
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 3: we're outside. When we're out and she's not holding my hand,

687
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 3: I'm so aware of it since the affair. I will

688
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 3: just notice that and the worst thing goes in my

689
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: head and I'd say to her, come, you're not holding

690
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 3: my hand, and then she kind of laughs and says, oh,

691
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: just let me know. I'm just fixated on that. I

692
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 3: don't know why, but I'm fixated on that.

693
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 2: You don't know why, because you need a ton of

694
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: reassurance about how she feels towards you, a ton. You're

695
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: getting very little. And when you're saying to someone who's

696
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: had an affair, it would really make me feel good

697
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: if you hold my hand a lot. But you have

698
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: to keep saying it, and she says, I'll hold it

699
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 2: whenever you tell me to hold it is really defeating

700
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: the purpose of what that exercise is about.

701
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: Before the affair, did she spontaneously hold your hand or

702
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,240
Speaker 1: were you always the person to initiate that kind of affection.

703
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 3: I feel that was pretty equal. Can I say one

704
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 3: more thing in relation to this, I often want to kiss,

705
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 3: She says. Kissing is not her thing. I mean even

706
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: early in the relationship, it was a thing where she

707
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 3: was said, I'm not a great kisser. She never really

708
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 3: enjoyed that part of it. Like the holding hands. I

709
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 3: like even more of a connection now, and that's one

710
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 3: form of it, especially when we're intimate and she's not

711
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 3: very into that. That's when things start brewing in my

712
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 3: head and the mood starts to shift.

713
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 2: You wonder if she kissed the other guy, and if

714
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: she enjoyed kissing the other guy. You're nothing, So that

715
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: says something that you esk about. You wonder, but you

716
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 2: don't ask because you don't hear a hurtful response.

717
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

718
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 1: I wonder if you've been lonely for a long time too.

719
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: You know, you're in a marriage where you never really kissed,

720
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: and that seems to be something that you wanted. And

721
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: I wonder how much time you've spent thinking about not

722
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: so much about how do I keep her and how

723
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: do I assuage her loneliness, but also what have I

724
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: not been asking for? And maybe it's time to do that.

725
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 3: But I've mentioned it, and again I don't really like it.

726
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 3: I'm not really comfortable with it, so I don't feel

727
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 3: right in asking her to do that.

728
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 2: I think what Laurie's saying to you is that it's

729
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 2: time for you to focus on how you feel in

730
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 2: the marriage and to focus on getting to a place

731
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 2: where you feel better and what would allow you to

732
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: feel secure and loved and wanted and needed romantically, sexually,

733
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 2: all of it. You're so focused on her emotional responses,

734
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 2: you've taken your eye away from yours. Scott, we have

735
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 2: some advice for you. It comes from this place. We're

736
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 2: both concerned that you and Becky are putting in work

737
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: to get back to where you were before the affair,

738
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 2: which is not the best place to go back to,

739
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: because that was a place in which the marriage was

740
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 2: vulnerable to an affair. You're putting in a lot of

741
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 2: work trying to get back to the wrong place, and

742
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: you're not working where you need to work. In a

743
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: way that will actually repair the relationship.

744
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: Part of doing the work is that you need to

745
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: know and she needs to know that you're both willing

746
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: to do the work. And so we want you to

747
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: talk to Becky this week and there are a few

748
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: things that we want you to include as part of

749
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: that conversation, and they're very specific. The first is that

750
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 1: it seems like you feel rightly so uncomfortable that the

751
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: kids have been involved in what's going on between the

752
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: two of you. And instead of lecturing her and I'm

753
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: using her word there about well, from now on, we

754
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 1: can't involve the kids and what's going on, I want

755
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 1: you to just share with her very briefly. I really

756
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: want to resolve this between us, and it makes me

757
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: uncomfortable when we involve the kids. I'm wondering how you

758
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: feel about both of us making an effort to make

759
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: sure that whatever goes on between us, that we keep

760
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: it between us. How does that feel to you? And

761
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: she may say, well, no, I don't agree to that.

762
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: That's just information for you. You're not going to do

763
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: anything with it right now, You're just going to hear

764
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: how she feels about it. So that's the first thing.

765
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: Here's the second, and with suggesting this, because we think

766
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: you need to be able to demonstrate to yourself that

767
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: you can do the work as well by not shying

768
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: away from questions to which you might hear upsetting answers.

769
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: And so we would like you to ask her first

770
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 2: so that you can get the practice asking difficult questions,

771
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: but second to see how she reacts, because we also

772
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: want to see that she understands what doing real work means.

773
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: We would like you to say to her, and I

774
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: have a couple of questions I want to ask you.

775
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 2: I want to know when you were with the other guy,

776
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 2: did you kiss him when you were having sex? And

777
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 2: I know that's a difficult question for you to ask,

778
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 2: and it might be a difficult answer to hear, but

779
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 2: it's the kind of question you have in your head.

780
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: And those are the kinds of questions you have to

781
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: be able to talk about to be able to move on,

782
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 2: and she has to be able to tolerate.

783
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: And maybe you can preface that by saying, part of

784
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 1: having the kind of relationship that we want to have

785
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: means that we can have these hard conversations. And so

786
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: as painful as it might be for me to hear

787
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: the truth. It will be so much better for us

788
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: if I have the truth. It gives us a place

789
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: to go exactly.

790
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: And I would emphasize that the idea of having these

791
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 2: conversations is so that you can truly move on, rather

792
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: than pretending to move on when all these questions are

793
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 2: still in your head.

794
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: And then we'd like to have you ask her one

795
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: more hard question. And I think this question is something

796
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: that's there all the time in your mind, but you

797
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: just haven't voiced. And you can preface it again by saying,

798
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: we can't move forward in any real way without the truth.

799
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: And the question is if the person that you've been

800
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: having this affair with were to say to you tomorrow,

801
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: I'm leaving my wife, would you get in the car

802
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:53,760
Speaker 1: and go to him? And then you just stop talking.

803
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 1: I think part of asking these questions is not filling

804
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: in the space because there might be just a quiet

805
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: there or she doesn't know what to do with it.

806
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 1: Just stop talking, Just wait patiently, however long it takes

807
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: for her to respond, Just keep breathing. Whatever she does

808
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: with these questions will give you such valuable information that

809
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: you just don't have right now. Even if she doesn't answer,

810
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: the question that's information. How she answers the question, that's information,

811
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: and it's good information to have. It will create a

812
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: healthier dynamic between the two of you, no matter what happens.

813
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 3: That sounds good.

814
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 2: There is one last thing. We think it's imperative that

815
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 2: you guys have these conversations with a therapist. These are

816
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: extraordinarily difficult conversations to have. Other than those three things

817
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 2: that you mentioned, we do think you need to be

818
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: in coupless therapy. We think you should say to her

819
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: you didn't like the last therapist we went to, but

820
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: we really need to do this work with somebody trained

821
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,720
Speaker 2: who can help us. I would like you to find

822
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 2: some Take seventy two hours and call as many people

823
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 2: as you need until you find someone who calls back

824
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 2: or you feel comfortable with, set up an appointment for us.

825
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: I'd like for you to do that, so you're choosing

826
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 2: someone you feel comfortable with and set up an appointment

827
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 2: within seventy two hours, so I can have a sense

828
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 2: that you're seriously willing to work on making things better

829
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: for the long term. Okay, tell us how you're feeling

830
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: about all of this.

831
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 3: I find them very interesting and I'm willing to do that.

832
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 3: I think they will give me a lot of information

833
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: and I'm totally okay with that. Actually good.

834
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you bring up the idea of the therapist,

835
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: we don't want it to sound like you're directing things

836
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: and it's a lecture. So I want you to say

837
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: to her, I'm not sure I can stay with you

838
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: if we don't go and see a therapist. You're just

839
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: telling her something about you. I don't know that I

840
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: will be able to manage this if we don't do this.

841
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 3: If she says, why don't you make the call, I'll go,

842
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 3: but you make the call.

843
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 2: I'm just curious, Scott. If she said that, how would

844
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 2: you respond.

845
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 3: I may say I would love to see you make

846
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 3: the call because that would show me that you care

847
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 3: about our relationship.

848
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: I would say, because that would show me that you

849
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: are really interested in doing the work we need to

850
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 2: do to fix our relationship.

851
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: I might even say one of the things that I've

852
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: come to realize is that maybe what I wanted was

853
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: not always what you wanted, And if you make the call,

854
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 1: that would indicate in some way that you wanted this.

855
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 3: Got it? Got it? Thank you? Okay, thank you so much?

856
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: You're welcome, Scott. We look forward to hearing back from

857
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 2: you when we wish you luck. When I see a couple,

858
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 2: I always let them know that my client is their relationship,

859
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 2: that I will be advocating for the relationship. And even

860
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 2: though we were just talking with Scott, I think both

861
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: of us had this idea of they're trying to repair,

862
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: let's really see what can make this relationship actually work.

863
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,399
Speaker 2: And the dilemma that we had was that we know

864
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: that they have to have these difficult conversations if they're

865
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,919
Speaker 2: going to have a chance at succeeding, and we also

866
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: know that having them can lead to their breakup. And

867
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 2: so it's this dilemma of do you recommend the thing

868
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 2: that the people have to have in order to succeed

869
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,959
Speaker 2: even though there's a high risk involved in doing that.

870
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: That's right, And when you say we advocate for the relationship,

871
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: I want to be clear that we advocate for the

872
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: relationship when both people are on board and say they

873
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: want to repair the relationship. We don't do that when

874
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 1: those conditions aren't met. And I think the other thing

875
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: is we're advocating for the relationship in the sense of

876
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 1: even if this marriage doesn't work out because they do

877
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: find that they're not able to do this kind of

878
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 1: work together or have the kind of marriage that both

879
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: of them want. They're going to be co parents no

880
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: matter what. So we want them to come to a

881
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: place that's not about slamming the door in someone's face.

882
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: We want them to come to a place of we

883
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: have an understanding despite all of the pain. And I

884
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: think what you said is so true that as therapists

885
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: we have this dilemma. We know that the relationship can't

886
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: survive without the truth, but we also know that the

887
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,399
Speaker 1: truth often comes with a lot of pain in the

888
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,720
Speaker 1: short term, but in the long term it's what provides

889
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 1: the relief.

890
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: Right and if they can't tolerate it in the short term,

891
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: they're not going to get to the long term. So

892
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 2: find out now rather than data.

893
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like they're never going to move past

894
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: this place of uncertainty if they don't start doing this

895
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: kind of work. I really liked what you said earlier

896
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: about it seemed like he was the one who had

897
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 1: the affair and was trying to repair it because he's

898
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: doing so much and she's doing so little, which is

899
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: often what happens in the reverse.

900
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 2: But I think even though she's trying to just move

901
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 2: forward and pretend things are okay, she also has that

902
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: feeling of deep insecurity somewhere that she knows that things

903
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 2: are unstable because they never really got to it. And

904
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 2: so I think there would be a part of her

905
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: that would feel comforted if she was able to and

906
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: if he's able to really dive in and do the

907
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 2: hard work.

908
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: It seems like what she really wants on some level

909
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: that she hasn't felt she had is a sense of

910
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: emotional safety. Before the affair, she felt like Scott would

911
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: sort of lecture her, talk over her, and maybe there

912
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: wasn't enough space for her. And then she goes to

913
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: this other guy and well, it's not really safe because

914
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 1: he can't talk to her because he's with his wife

915
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 1: and he's actually not going to leave. And she seems

916
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: to then go back to Scott because somehow she feels

917
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: like she's going to have this emotional safety with him.

918
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: But there's not emotional safety in that relationship at all,

919
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: because there is so much that is just living in

920
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: the air between them that they are not discussing. For

921
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: both of them, it will be kind of a reckoning

922
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: of where do I stand in terms of what I want,

923
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: what I'm willing to do to repair this relationship.

924
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm thinking of what I say sometimes to couples,

925
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 2: and that is that it is very brave of you

926
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 2: after an affair to come to see me to do

927
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:33,320
Speaker 2: the work of repair, because it's very difficult. You're showing

928
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 2: up knowing that these are going to be painful conversations,

929
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 2: and I really appreciate that you're both here with that

930
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 2: in mind, and I hope they're both going to be

931
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 2: brave enough to do that. I do too. You're listening

932
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 2: to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break.

933
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: So, Guy, we heard back from Scott, and we had

934
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 1: given him the task of asking some difficult questions that

935
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,240
Speaker 1: he had been afraid to ask, and then also making

936
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: a hard request. So let's hear what happened.

937
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 3: Hi, Guy and Laurie. This is Scott. So I did

938
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 3: ask the three questions. The first question it was relatively easy.

939
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 3: I think we he really at this point have been

940
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 3: on the same page about keeping our issues between ourselves,

941
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 3: and so she didn't have a problem at all. The

942
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 3: second question was not as easy. She took a while

943
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 3: to answer, and it was very uncomfortable for me, but

944
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:52,479
Speaker 3: she did say that she did kiss him and that

945
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 3: she had wanted to, And actually it led to a

946
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 3: lot of awkward ms right after that, where I was

947
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 3: feeling a lot of things, jealousy, a bit of anger,

948
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 3: a bit of why is it so hard to kiss me?

949
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 3: And it troubled her also that I asked that, and

950
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 3: it was very difficult. But I moved along to the

951
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 3: third question, which was if he were to leave, what

952
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 3: would she do and she said that no, she wouldn't,

953
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 3: that she doesn't want to hurt anybody anymore. And it

954
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 3: did lead to a very open conversation about why she

955
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,800
Speaker 3: came back, that she had done it for the kids,

956
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 3: and at that point she got a little doubtful about everything.

957
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 3: I don't know if I can continue like this. These

958
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 3: are very hard questions. It's very uncomfortable, and I told

959
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 3: her I would like for you to call a therapist

960
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 3: make an appointment for us, and she ultimately said she

961
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,839
Speaker 3: wouldn't and that she doesn't even really want to see

962
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 3: a therapist. Things really just did not end well there. Honestly,

963
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,359
Speaker 3: I thought it was over. It seemed like things were

964
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 3: just going to implode. At that point, I felt really bad.

965
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 3: I couldn't eat. I really felt that our marriage was

966
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 3: just going to fall apart. Interestingly, the next day I

967
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 3: talked with her and I said, again, if we want

968
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 3: to move forward, it's very important that we do see

969
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 3: a therapist together. That this won't be about who's right

970
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 3: and who's wrong. I think she was very much afraid

971
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 3: she would always be cast in a negative way, but

972
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 3: I tried to reassure that wouldn't be the case. It

973
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 3: would be about us and working together. There would be

974
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 3: difficult things brought up, but we're working together. And she said, look,

975
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 3: I'm not really good at finding someone, but I would

976
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 3: be okay if you found someone, and I'll go. I

977
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 3: was very happy to hear that. And I'm in the

978
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 3: process right now of getting some references and we'll be

979
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 3: making an appointment for us. She seemed like this is

980
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 3: going to be hard for me, but I do want

981
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 3: what's best and she was willing to do it. So

982
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 3: thank you very much.

983
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: So kudos to Scott for asking those really difficult questions.

984
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 2: I have to say I was disappointed when I heard

985
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 2: the answers Becky gave because saying I came back really

986
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 2: for the kids. Yes, I kissed him and I wanted to,

987
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 2: which is kind of what we suspected. But if she

988
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 2: added any affirmation or validation to him afterwards, but I

989
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: care about you, I love you, it wasn't mentioned, and

990
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 2: I kind of think it wasn't mentioned because it wasn't there.

991
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 2: And her reluctance to go to therapy was another red

992
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 2: flag for me. I think she wants to be in

993
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: it for the family. I just don't know if she's

994
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 2: in it for Scott.

995
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: I very much felt the same way. My heart ached

996
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: for him when I was listening to his response, because

997
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 1: I think there's a part of him that still is

998
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: in denial about this. I agree, which is to be expected.

999
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: He loves her, he wants the marriage to work. He's

1000
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 1: just hurting so much. And she eventually the next day

1001
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: agreed to go to therapy again if Scott found the therapist,

1002
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,479
Speaker 1: meaning I'm sure she would be capable of doing so.

1003
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 1: She doesn't really want to put in the effort, and

1004
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 1: the reason that she gave for going was it's the

1005
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 1: right thing to do. It's not I really love you,

1006
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: and we need to figure out what's going on and

1007
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: try to see what's here. I'm not hearing any of

1008
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: that from her, and what I am hearing from Scott

1009
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: is this passivity where he said, I really thought the

1010
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: marriage was over after the first set of questions, but

1011
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: he didn't really go inside and say, given these answers,

1012
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: what do I want.

1013
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 2: We gave him that task because we wanted him to

1014
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 2: hear the hard answers and be realistic about is this

1015
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: enough for him? Can he get his needs met in

1016
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: this situation? So he asked the hard questions, he got

1017
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 2: the hard answers, and then he softballed his response to

1018
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 2: those hard answers. So I am concerned that he's not

1019
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 2: going to be able to get what he wants. And

1020
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 2: I hope that at least with the therapy, that will

1021
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 2: be able to be clarified.

1022
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I think that the most painful answer

1023
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: that she gave, and it was honest, so good for

1024
00:57:54,080 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: her for being honest. But the painful answer was if

1025
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: the person she had the affair with were to leave

1026
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: his wife, would you go with him? And her answer

1027
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: was no. But the because was the hard part. She said,

1028
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: because she doesn't want to hurt anyone anymore. Right, it

1029
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: wasn't because I want to be with you. It had

1030
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: nothing to do with him. Really. It was about not

1031
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: hurting him, but it wasn't about whether she desired to

1032
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: be with him.

1033
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: I don't want to hurt you means I don't really

1034
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 2: want to be here and doing it for the kids.

1035
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 2: It's just not a motivation that can sustain a relationship.

1036
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: I think if we were to have two columns and

1037
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: one column was what Scott heard and the other column

1038
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: is what we heard. So the answer to the first question,

1039
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: I think the columns would be the same, that we'll

1040
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: keep the kids out of these discussions, which is good.

1041
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: The answer to the second question, whether she had kissed

1042
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: the other guy, what Scott heard was what's wrong with me?

1043
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 1: Why is it so hard to kiss me?

1044
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 2: It was asking himself and actually not answering himself and

1045
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 2: not saying, I guess she doesn't care about me enough,

1046
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: but just not answering the question.

1047
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: Right. And for the third question, which is about whether

1048
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: she would leave, he heard, oh, she would stay, and

1049
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: what we heard was she would stay out of obligation, right.

1050
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: And for the therapist question, what he heard was, well, optimistically,

1051
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: the next day she said she would go to therapy

1052
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: and I'm getting names, and I'm going to make an appointment.

1053
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: And what we heard was she's not willing to put

1054
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: in the effort and the energy to do the kind

1055
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: of work that would make this marriage be a true

1056
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 1: marriage and not a surface marriage or a marriage where

1057
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: you're at risk again of this kind of thing happening.

1058
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 2: He is going to have to be honest with himself

1059
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 2: and face the difficult truths, and in therapy continue to

1060
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: ask difficult questions and maybe with the help of the therapist,

1061
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 2: listen to the answer objectively rather than optimistically, because I

1062
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 2: do think he's the kind end of person who can

1063
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 2: absolutely find someone who truly cares for him. He's a

1064
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 2: very giving person, and I think he can find another

1065
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 2: very giving person to be with, but he has to

1066
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 2: finish with this relationship first.

1067
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: I'm very optimistic about his ability to find a satisfying

1068
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: relationship where it's reciprocal, where the love is there both ways.

1069
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:21,479
Speaker 1: One thing he said at the end that I felt

1070
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: optimistic about was when he said, I realized that I

1071
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: can't be afraid of asking the difficult questions, and he

1072
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 1: felt some relief that he had asked these questions even

1073
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 1: though he really hasn't taken in the answers yet, And

1074
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: I think that that will bode well both for the

1075
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: therapy that they're going to do, because he'll see very

1076
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: quickly whether Becky is willing to engage with those difficult questions,

1077
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: and if not, that will give him some answers much

1078
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: sooner than if they just did status quo at home

1079
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 1: without going to the therapist, And if they don't end

1080
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 1: up together, that will serve him well in the next

1081
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: relationship he finds himself in.

1082
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 2: Hey, fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice

1083
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 2: from the podcast in your own life, send us a

1084
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 2: quick voice memo to Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com and

1085
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 2: tell us about it. We may include it in a

1086
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 2: future show.

1087
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,919
Speaker 1: And if you're enjoying our podcast each week, please help

1088
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 1: support Dear Therapists. You can tell your friends about it,

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Speaker 1: and we'd be so grateful if you'd leave us a

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Speaker 1: five star review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews help people

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Speaker 1: find the show. You can follow us both online. I'm

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Speaker 1: at Lorigottlieb dot com and you can follow me on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at Lorigottlieb one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb, underscore author.

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Speaker 2: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

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Speaker 2: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd

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Speaker 2: like to discuss with us, big or small, email us

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Speaker 2: at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by

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Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

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Speaker 1: podcast Fairygodmother Katie Couric. And next week, a woman faces

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Speaker 1: her first holiday season after a difficult divorce. It was

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Speaker 1: really stressful to be going back and forth and to

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Speaker 1: not no. I think I sort of became numb to it.

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.