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Speaker 1: Film Spotting is presented by Regal Unlimited, the all you

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Speaker 1: Wednesdays are when we like to drop something from the

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Speaker 1: Film Spotting Archive, that massive collection that's available at all

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Speaker 1: times to Film Spotting family members. But on Wednesdays we

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Speaker 1: share something with all of you. Now, on Friday Show,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take another look at Best Picture nominee

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Speaker 1: one battle after another. That's coming ahead, But right now,

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Speaker 1: for this week's Archive Show, we have a film released

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Speaker 1: fifty years ago this weekend that went on to be

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Speaker 1: nominated for four Oscars a year later, Martin Scorsese's Taxi Driver.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how about that?

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Speaker 3: Best Picture, Best Actor for de Niro, Best Supporting Actress

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Speaker 3: for Jodie Foster, and score Bernard Hermann. Josh it lost

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Speaker 3: all four? How about that? Did we forget to mention

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Speaker 3: Martin Scorsese's nomination? No, we did not, Because Martin Scorsese

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Speaker 3: did not get nominated. We have actually reviewed Taxi Driver

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Speaker 3: twice on the show. We did discuss it as part

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Speaker 3: of our seven from seventy six Best Year Ever series.

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Speaker 3: That's what you're gonna hear first. But I was talking

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Speaker 3: to Sam and I said, you know, why not as

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Speaker 3: a little treat, let's really dip into the archive. Let's

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Speaker 3: make it a two fer. Originally, twenty eleven, Dana Stevens

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Speaker 3: guest hosted with me and we talked about this show

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Speaker 3: as part of a thirty fifth anniversary conversation. We did

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Speaker 3: that along with our top five Robert de Niro scenes.

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Speaker 3: So me and you and me and Dana talking about

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Speaker 3: the film Taxi Driver.

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Speaker 4: How about that?

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Speaker 1: Lots of Taxi Driver talk. You had to go to

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Speaker 1: the archive, the basement of the archives, yes, to get

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Speaker 1: that other one, and yeah, double dip.

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Speaker 4: Here for you.

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Speaker 3: There you go from March twenty twenty one, here is

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Speaker 3: that seven from seventy six conversation, and then way back

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Speaker 3: to twenty eleven, myself and Danas Stevens.

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Speaker 5: You just want to go out and again, you know,

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Speaker 5: like really really really.

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Speaker 2: Do something.

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Speaker 6: Taxi life.

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Speaker 2: You mean, well, knot's.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I just want to go out I really, I

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Speaker 5: really want to got some bad ideas in my head.

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Speaker 6: I just.

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Speaker 5: So.

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Speaker 1: Taxi Driver released in February of nineteen seventy six. It

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Speaker 1: won the Palm d'Or at the can Film Festival that May,

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Speaker 1: and went on to become the seventeenth highest grossing film

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Speaker 1: of the year, Nominated for four Oscars, including Best Picture.

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Speaker 1: Scorsese himself, however, not nominated for Best Director. That didn't

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Speaker 1: happen until Raging Bull. The screenwriter of Taxi Driver, Paul Schrader,

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Speaker 1: also not nominated. However, Robert de Niro and Jodi Foster.

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Speaker 1: They both got acting nods, along with the posthumous nomination

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Speaker 1: for composer Bernard Herman, who died shortly after completing the score. Now, Adam,

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Speaker 1: I'm not even going to try to compete with your

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Speaker 1: brilliant recent silence of the Lambs set up when you

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Speaker 1: played Hannibal Lecter. Instead, I'm just going to steal a

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Speaker 1: question that our producer Sam posed about Taxi Driver in

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Speaker 1: this week's Film Spotting newsletter. And if you want to

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Speaker 1: get that weekly email from Sam, just sign up at

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Speaker 1: filmspotting dot net slash newsletter. In it es listeners would

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Speaker 1: Travis Bickle have participated in the January sixth Capitol riot. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'll admit this wasn't on my mind as I contemplated

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Speaker 1: revisiting Taxi Driver.

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Speaker 4: But it should have been.

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Speaker 1: In my book Movies Are Prayers, I included Taxi Driver

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Speaker 1: along with another best year ever title that we've considered,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine's Fight Club, in the chapter on movies

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Speaker 1: as prayers of anger.

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Speaker 4: Anger.

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Speaker 1: I'd say, a particularly male white American anger was definitely

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Speaker 1: on display by those who attack.

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Speaker 4: The Capitol Building.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it's probably one of the defining qualities of

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Speaker 1: Robert De Niro's Travis Bickle. So I'm really curious to

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Speaker 1: hear what you think of Sam's question, Adam, do you

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Speaker 1: also see some similarities between what happened earlier this year

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Speaker 1: in DC and what we see in Taxi Driver? And

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Speaker 1: are there maybe some important distinctions we should also consider?

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Speaker 3: Well, I do think Taxi Driver poses a bit of

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Speaker 3: a challenge if you try to suggest that it's too

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Speaker 3: timely or speaks to our current situation, Because one, this

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Speaker 3: is a movie that is so distinctly a nineteen seventies

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Speaker 3: movie made in nineteen seventies New York, and there is

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Speaker 3: specific content within the film that covers that sort of

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Speaker 3: social and political malaise that we all id identify with

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Speaker 3: America in the nineteen seventies. Palatine's message when he's giving

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Speaker 3: his rallies definitely is touching on that, even stylistically, Josh

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Speaker 3: the end of the film, and I didn't have a

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Speaker 3: chance to fully verify all this. I'm going off of

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Speaker 3: my notes from the last time we talked about this

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Speaker 3: movie here on the show. It was myself and Slate's

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Speaker 3: Dana Stevens on the movie's thirty fifth anniversary, so ten

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Speaker 3: years ago April twenty eleven, we talked about it. But

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Speaker 3: the reason why you get that really jarring shift in

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Speaker 3: the way the film actually looks at the end when

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Speaker 3: all the violence and bloodshed is happening, I believe has

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Speaker 3: something to do with them having to desaturate it and

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Speaker 3: make it somehow less gory to appease.

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Speaker 2: The MPAA or something.

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Speaker 3: So you've got that aspect which probably wouldn't happen today

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Speaker 3: if Taxi Driver was being released. And the film is

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Speaker 3: also so completely told from Travis's point of view that

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Speaker 3: whether or not Travis is representative of some larger disillusionment

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Speaker 3: and anger is really almost impossible to gauge. I mean,

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Speaker 3: even these rallies that Palatine's ad, it's not like there's

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Speaker 3: a ton of people in the crowd. The other cabbys

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Speaker 3: that he interacts with, they don't seem to really be

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Speaker 3: of a similar political mindset or bent at all. He

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Speaker 3: is unique and Taxi Driver is unique. But I'm going

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Speaker 3: to give you here a contradiction that I think is

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Speaker 3: fitting for a movie that is full of them. I did,

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Speaker 3: on this viewing, find it more timely than ever, and

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Speaker 3: yet somehow I didn't connect with it. I didn't connect

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Speaker 3: with the material the same way I did ten years ago.

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Speaker 3: And maybe that's because I saw it on the big screen.

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Speaker 3: Then it was re released for that anniversary, and when

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Speaker 3: the Blu ray came out, so I actually got to

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Speaker 3: see it, and it felt like the first time because

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Speaker 3: it had been so long since I had previously seen

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Speaker 3: the film. Certainly I had my full attention on the

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Speaker 3: film in the theater versus the distractions and the burnout

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Speaker 3: that come with watching things at home these days. But

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Speaker 3: maybe Josh, it gets back to your quot. Maybe the

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Speaker 3: disconnect for me this time which let me be clear

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Speaker 3: still saying it's a great film, But maybe the reason

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Speaker 3: it didn't quite resonate with me as much this time

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Speaker 3: is related to that timeliness. Not that I'm any more

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Speaker 3: or less sympathetic towards Travis Bickle here ten years later,

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Speaker 3: I don't know where you even start with the sympathy

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Speaker 3: question with Travis Bickell, But with Dana in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 3: I made the point that Travis doesn't hate Palatine, even

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Speaker 3: though obviously he plans to assassinate him. There's this larger

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Speaker 3: kind of sense of alienation on his part that he

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Speaker 3: is tapping into. And maybe that's what frustrates him so much,

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Speaker 3: is that there's the sense of futility and he needs

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Speaker 3: a target, he needs someone to take it out on.

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Speaker 3: And I said then that today we're so divided culturally

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Speaker 3: and politically, the bickles out there can easily find a

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Speaker 3: target to take down. I actually invoked Jared Lee Loughner

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Speaker 3: back in that review in Arizona twenty eleven, ended up

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Speaker 3: killing six people, I think, and shot US Representative Gabby Diffords.

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Speaker 3: And that seems almost quaint now, doesn't it? Me invoking

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Speaker 3: that figure ten years later, our cultural and political divide

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Speaker 3: is obviously that chasm has just grown. We've got the

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Speaker 3: racial unrest that has been heightened over the past year

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Speaker 3: or two. And then you've got those insurrectionists you mentioned

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Speaker 3: storming the capitol. I mean, on some level, yes, aren't

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Speaker 3: they all Travis Bickle? And then you factor in two

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Speaker 3: how much of Travis's rage is driven not only by

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Speaker 3: racial animus but also anger towards women, which that's very

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Speaker 3: clear as well. But Sam also not only gave you

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Speaker 3: great fodder for your setup, he made a great comment

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Speaker 3: to me and our slack, which was, you know, Travis

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Speaker 3: Bickle in nineteen seventy six was really dangerous, but at

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Speaker 3: least he was isolated. You know, I mentioned his community

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Speaker 3: if you will. It was just those other cabbies and

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Speaker 3: he has nothing in common with them, and they don't

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Speaker 3: really seem to want to hang out with him much either.

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Speaker 3: But now, as Sam pointed out, everything he's engaging in,

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Speaker 3: whether it's the porn, the journal writing, the stalking, that's

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Speaker 3: all just moved online, in Sam's words, over the last

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Speaker 3: half century, right, So he's no longer a dangerous loaner. Again,

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Speaker 3: these are Sam's words. I want to get them right,

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Speaker 3: because they're very eloquent. Now instead of being a dangerous loaner,

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Speaker 3: he can join a community of dangerous loaners. And again,

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Speaker 3: it's not really for me about whether I'm more or

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Speaker 3: less sympathetic to this gun toting in cell, but maybe

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Speaker 3: I am a little fatigued the way the damage done

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Speaker 3: by damaged people like Travis has warned me out to

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Speaker 3: the point where I'm a little less enamored with the

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Speaker 3: filmmaking and the boldness of the vision. And I'll just

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Speaker 3: say too, you know, we talk about some of this

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Speaker 3: high minded stuff and that disillusionment and alienation. The reality

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Speaker 3: is that Schrader has scripted something pretty elemental here, which

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Speaker 3: is maybe why it's ultimately so profound and revealing still

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Speaker 3: so many years later. Our friend Brett Merriman out in

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Speaker 3: La quoted Paul Schrader's comments from an interview in his

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Speaker 3: Letterbox Review, where Strader said the script is simple. The

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Speaker 3: girl he wants he can't have, and the girl he

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Speaker 3: can have he doesn't want. So he tries to kill

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Speaker 3: the father of the first girl and fails, but succeeds

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Speaker 3: in killing the father of the second girl. That's about it,

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Speaker 3: Paul Schrader says, but it is right. Palatine is a

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Speaker 3: revenge target because of Betsy's rejection, and Sport is a

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Speaker 3: revenge target because of Iris's illicit and unnatural acceptance which

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Speaker 3: he can't deal with. So I don't know if I

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Speaker 3: got around to answering your question or not. There are

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Speaker 3: certainly things about it that make it distinct and make

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Speaker 3: it feel uniquely of its time, and make Travis Bickel

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Speaker 3: feel uniquely of his time, and then there's so much

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Speaker 3: about it that feels so relevant today.

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Speaker 1: Sadly, I understand the weariness you might have experienced with

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Speaker 1: this because the realities that it showcases have ballooned and

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Speaker 1: have become more in our face. And to be honest,

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Speaker 1: here's a distinction. Someone like Travis, if he had popped

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Speaker 1: up in the last four years, would have been in

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Speaker 1: bold and by those holding the highest office in the land.

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Speaker 4: And so that's a distinction as well.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like Palatine, you know, would in his stump speeches,

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Speaker 1: would be encouraging Travis.

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Speaker 4: That's a distinction, right.

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Speaker 3: That's definitely, And Josh real quick to your point. Palatine

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Speaker 3: does interact with him earlier in the film before maybe

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Speaker 3: Travis has has gotten full on into the headspace he

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Speaker 3: ends up in, but interestingly he embraces him until he

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Speaker 3: starts to sound really crazy.

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Speaker 1: But he's still kind of like he still kind of

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Speaker 1: walks that line where he lets Travis hear what he

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Speaker 1: wants to hear. That's right, And in recent years it's

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Speaker 1: not even kind of like trying to split those hairs.

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Speaker 1: It's just been I know this is what you want

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Speaker 1: to hear. I'm going to feed it to you and

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Speaker 1: foment these things. So that's a distinction to Sam's point,

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Speaker 1: which is very good about Travis going online. I would

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Speaker 1: add that imagine Travis Bickle not watching Soul Train or

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Speaker 1: whatever it was on his television all day or soap operas,

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Speaker 1: but watching Fox News or Newsmax or listening to Rush

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Speaker 1: Limbaugh odd day every day and feeding that into his

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Speaker 1: psyche as well. So, yeah, you anyone concerned about what's

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Speaker 1: been happening over the past couple of years watches Taxi

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Speaker 1: Driver now and it feels a lot closer, it feels

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Speaker 1: less like an isolated incident. Travis is not unique. This

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Speaker 1: is what we've sadly discovered and what these online communities

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Speaker 1: have have showed us is that Travis Bickle is not unique.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of Travis Bickle's out there, some

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Speaker 1: who will go as far as he went in terms

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Speaker 1: of actual violence. And you know that we have also

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Speaker 1: learned in reports a lot of different people were part

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Speaker 1: of that attack on the Capitol. So it's it's simplistic

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Speaker 1: to just lay Travispickel on top of all of them.

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Speaker 1: But I think there are a lot of similarities. You've

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Speaker 1: touched on some of them. The anger, the racial motivation,

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Speaker 1: the idea of looking for a target, and politicians make

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Speaker 1: easy targets. You know, That's that is why he can

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Speaker 1: shift his animosity toward Palant who previously he was going

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Speaker 1: to support, because he wanted to get close to Betsy, right,

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Speaker 1: And that's another thing in common on the day at

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Speaker 1: the Capitol. Blue lives matter until they didn't, you know,

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Speaker 1: because the ideology wasn't what was driving a lot of

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Speaker 1: those folks. It wasn't any sort of principle. It was

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Speaker 1: the anger that was driving them, and the fact that,

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Speaker 1: like Travis, they believe they were acting on the side

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Speaker 1: of justice. You know, he sees himself as this angel

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Speaker 1: of justice throughout the movie and interestingly the way the

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Speaker 1: film ends, which I do want to get back to

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Speaker 1: and spend a little time on that he's again emboldened

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Speaker 1: in that the media portrays him in the reports that

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Speaker 1: we could talk about whether that's in his head or not,

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Speaker 1: but what we're presented with is the media portrays him

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Speaker 1: as this savior. So so yeah, definitely resonates in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways that are that are tiring. I think

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Speaker 1: the thing that stood out to me this time was

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Speaker 1: how much of the dent in the active cultural consciousness

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Speaker 1: that Taxi Driver has made. I would used to think

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Speaker 1: like it was the violence, it was Scorsese's filmmaking, which

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Speaker 1: we'll get to, and some of the other craftsmanship. I

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Speaker 1: think it's all d Niro's performance. I think if you

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Speaker 1: had anyone other than de Niro in this part, Taxi

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Speaker 1: Driver would have been, you know, maybe a nineteen seventies

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Speaker 1: gritty curiosity that would have a lot of admirers. For

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Speaker 1: the craftsmanship that's on display, I don't think it would

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Speaker 1: have rocked the film world. De Niro is just astounding here.

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Speaker 1: The defining characteristic for me watching this again that he

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Speaker 1: brings to Travis Bickle is that the guy is assaultive.

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Speaker 1: He is assaultive in every instance. Even when he's talking

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Speaker 1: to the manager applying for the job to drive a taxi.

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Speaker 1: His grin, his grin is just it's like two degrees

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Speaker 1: too smiley, right, Or when he's at that rally, he

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Speaker 1: goes right up to the security agent in the sunglass.

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Speaker 1: He's way too way too familiar with him, stares right

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Speaker 1: through the guy's sunglasses, like to make eye contact when

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Speaker 1: he's watching TV. The way he slowly pushes it over

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Speaker 1: till it falls. There's an assault of nature. This and

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Speaker 1: one thing I caught at him on a revisit. This

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Speaker 1: is all set up by an early throwaway gesture, no

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Speaker 1: idea if DeNiro, you know, improvis this or whatever. But

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Speaker 1: he's done interviewing at the taxi garage, he's walking out.

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Speaker 1: Another taxi is pulling in past him, and he gives

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Speaker 1: it as he walks past a little punch. He just

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Speaker 1: punches the taxi. And that is how the guy lives.

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Speaker 1: He's always imagining that everything he encounters needs to be punched.

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Speaker 1: But why because it's done something to him? And who

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Speaker 1: knows what he thinks about that taxi. Maybe it pulled

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Speaker 1: too close to him, but it deserved a punch. When

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Speaker 1: he is sitting in the coffee shop with other cab

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Speaker 1: drivers and one of them just asks him, how's it hanging,

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Speaker 1: his instinct is to look at the guy like he

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Speaker 1: insulted his mother, and he gives it a few pauses

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Speaker 1: and then says, what's that he's looking? He's always looking

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Speaker 1: for something to punch. And then and then the you know,

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Speaker 1: the the level beneath that de Niro gives.

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Speaker 4: This is, of course the loneliness.

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Speaker 1: The phrase he says, being God's lonely man.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's we'll get to that.

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Speaker 1: I'm the only one here seeing I'm sure, But I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about that in the context of this

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Speaker 1: idea of loneliness, because I think the brilliance of nearest

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Speaker 1: performance is that. And maybe this is your sympathy question too,

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Speaker 1: that you were wondering about. I always felt that loneliness

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Speaker 1: underneath the burden. He felt as God's lonely man, the

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Speaker 1: only guy on earth, he feels who sees what's happening

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Speaker 1: and is going to do something about it.

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Speaker 6: Listen you, you screw heads. Here is a man who

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Speaker 6: would not take it anymore, who would not let listen

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Speaker 6: you you screw heads. Here's a man who would not

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Speaker 6: take it anymore, a man who stood up against the scum,

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Speaker 6: the dogs the film. Here is someone who stood up.

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Speaker 6: Here is.

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Speaker 4: Deadly.

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Speaker 3: I think the loneliness is so crucial because it's there,

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Speaker 3: underscoring every aspect of Travis's life, but also almost every

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Speaker 3: aspect of the film. If you think about Iris Jodie

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Speaker 3: Foster's character, the young prostitute, and what she needs from

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Speaker 3: the Harvey ki tell Pimp character, what Sybil Shepherd's character

320
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Speaker 3: is doing having any involvement whatsoever with someone who's clearly

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Speaker 3: a little disturbed like Travis's, but it's because she does

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Speaker 3: need some kind of connection herself. Even it's there, I

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Speaker 3: think in every aspect of this film, and in terms

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Speaker 3: of what stood out to me this time. And I

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Speaker 3: looked at my notes from twenty eleven obviously after I

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Speaker 3: saw the film, and two of the big things I

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Speaker 3: focused on were still really prominent and wonderful this time,

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Speaker 3: and I'll save them as we get a little bit

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Speaker 3: more into the craft. But it's the score, the Bernard

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Speaker 3: Hermann score, his final score, and the cinematography, some of

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Speaker 3: the stylistic choices, but specifically Michael Chapman's work. But the

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Speaker 3: other big thing was, yeah, believe it or not, Robert

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Speaker 3: de Niro's performance, because I think all the previous times

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Speaker 3: I watched this movie, I sort of just took it

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Speaker 3: for granted, And even in that review in twenty eleven, Josh,

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Speaker 3: I took it for granted, didn't really spend any time

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Speaker 3: on it, because in fairness, we were doing our top

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Speaker 3: five Robert de Niro scenes on that show, so I

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Speaker 3: was like, Okay, well, we'll just save it, and I

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Speaker 3: did put a taxi driver's scene in that top five.

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Speaker 3: But de Niro's performance for me this time was the

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Speaker 3: magic and the scene I picked back in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 3: My number three de Niro scene was actually the one

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Speaker 3: where he goes to volunteer and he kind of asks

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Speaker 3: out Sybil shit for the first time. It just does

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Speaker 3: catch you so off guard because he seems there to

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Speaker 3: actually be trying to make a meaningful connection and seem

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Speaker 3: somewhat normal in the way he's going about it, and

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Speaker 3: he actually has the nerve to ask her out. And

350
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Speaker 3: de Niro's got to do some heavy lifting there, because

351
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Speaker 3: we know a lot about that character that Betsy doesn't know.

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Speaker 3: And in order for us to believe that he's going

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Speaker 3: to get her to actually even just go around the

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Speaker 3: corner and have coffee with him, it's got to be

355
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Speaker 3: something in his performance. And I think there's an earnestness

356
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Speaker 3: and there's a conviction that she can't deny. Hi.

357
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Speaker 7: I like to volunteer, Greg, I'll take you right over here,

358
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Speaker 7: so I run volunteer.

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Speaker 4: If you don't learn, why do you feel that you

360
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Speaker 4: have to volunteer to me?

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Speaker 7: Because I think that you are the most beautiful woman

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Speaker 7: I've ever seen.

363
00:20:13,965 --> 00:20:14,405
Speaker 5: Thanks.

364
00:20:15,445 --> 00:20:16,645
Speaker 4: What do you think of Palentine?

365
00:20:17,205 --> 00:20:24,445
Speaker 1: Well, Charles Palentine, the man you're volunteering to help at present, I'm.

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Speaker 7: Sure he'll make a good present. I don't know exactly

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Speaker 7: what his policies are, but I'm sure makes a good one.

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Speaker 3: You said that he's assaultive, and that's accurate. But it's

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Speaker 3: this assaultive style that's mixed with an earnestness and an

370
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Speaker 3: earnestness that then crosses over into complete uneasiness and awkwardness.

371
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Speaker 3: And you're right, it's that off putting smile. The scene

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Speaker 3: with the manager he was applying to this time was

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Speaker 3: one that stood out to me as well, and the

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Speaker 3: moment I loved in particular is when everything's going pretty

375
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Speaker 3: well up until this point and he makes a joke.

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Speaker 2: He tries to crack a joke. He tries to do

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Speaker 2: what normal people do. Josh.

378
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Speaker 3: He makes a joke and he says, my driving record's clean,

379
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Speaker 3: like my conscience. And now the guy turns on him,

380
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Speaker 3: what are you doing? You bust in my balls? And

381
00:21:07,845 --> 00:21:12,765
Speaker 3: that smile, that completely obnoxious smile that is too big,

382
00:21:13,765 --> 00:21:17,085
Speaker 3: then turns immediately to consternation, and he knows that he's

383
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Speaker 3: now being punished. And like I said, he just tried

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Speaker 3: to do what he thinks normal people do, try to

385
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Speaker 3: make a little connection, try to engage in some small talk,

386
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Speaker 3: and he's instantly rebuked by it.

387
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Speaker 2: And I think that he's so unhinged.

388
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Speaker 3: But there's a sincerity to it that De Niro conveys

389
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Speaker 3: that makes Bickle fascinating. It's not only the smile, it's

390
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Speaker 3: the little fidgets. It's the physicality, like the punch of

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Speaker 3: the taxi cab you mentioned. And then the scene where

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Speaker 3: if you do feel for Travis at all, the scene

393
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Speaker 3: where I think it is most blatant, at least it

394
00:21:48,725 --> 00:21:50,365
Speaker 3: was for me on this rewatch, I wonder if there

395
00:21:50,405 --> 00:21:53,525
Speaker 3: was a scene for you. But it's when he takes

396
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Speaker 3: Betsy to the porno theater and she gets so mad

397
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Speaker 3: at him, and he's apologizing, and if you think about

398
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Speaker 3: what he even says, even when they're walking in and

399
00:22:05,965 --> 00:22:08,805
Speaker 3: she questions it, he says, no couples, I see couples

400
00:22:08,805 --> 00:22:11,405
Speaker 3: here all the time. Again, it's like this is normal behavior.

401
00:22:11,445 --> 00:22:15,485
Speaker 3: He thinks it's normal behavior. And everything he's doing with

402
00:22:15,525 --> 00:22:19,085
Speaker 3: her is an approximation, as best as he can do,

403
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Speaker 3: of what he thinks a man should do with a

404
00:22:23,245 --> 00:22:26,405
Speaker 3: woman on a date. And yes, he's dangerous, and you

405
00:22:26,445 --> 00:22:29,725
Speaker 3: see that forming, but he's so confused and so lost,

406
00:22:29,765 --> 00:22:31,725
Speaker 3: and he wants to please her so much that you

407
00:22:31,765 --> 00:22:34,765
Speaker 3: really do see the hurt. He's not hurt because he

408
00:22:34,845 --> 00:22:38,365
Speaker 3: can't believe she doesn't like his choice. He's hurt because

409
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Speaker 3: he had no idea she wouldn't like his choice. And

410
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Speaker 3: there's a moment I'd never really paid attention to before

411
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Speaker 3: with them. I think she lobs this at him as

412
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Speaker 3: she's going away. Remember earlier she says that he reminds

413
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Speaker 3: her a little bit of Chris Christofferson.

414
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Speaker 2: So what does he do.

415
00:22:54,325 --> 00:22:56,805
Speaker 3: He goes to the record store and he buys a

416
00:22:56,845 --> 00:23:00,245
Speaker 3: Chris Christofferson record and watching it this time, I'd forgotten

417
00:23:00,245 --> 00:23:03,365
Speaker 3: about it. I thought, Yeah, that's so relatable. Who hasn't

418
00:23:03,405 --> 00:23:05,605
Speaker 3: done that. Like, you're interested in somebody and you find

419
00:23:05,605 --> 00:23:07,845
Speaker 3: out what their favorite movie is, or their favorite song

420
00:23:07,925 --> 00:23:10,045
Speaker 3: or performer is. You want to understand what kind of

421
00:23:10,085 --> 00:23:12,085
Speaker 3: makes them tick. You want to speak the same language.

422
00:23:12,085 --> 00:23:15,245
Speaker 3: You're gonna start loving the things they love. Except that's

423
00:23:15,285 --> 00:23:18,085
Speaker 3: not what he did. He bought it for her, right,

424
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Speaker 3: He somehow thinks that even though she's already said she's

425
00:23:20,645 --> 00:23:23,525
Speaker 3: a fan of his, and she probably owns the record already.

426
00:23:23,525 --> 00:23:25,205
Speaker 3: I think she says to him, I already have it.

427
00:23:25,525 --> 00:23:28,485
Speaker 3: I wished you kept it for yourself. That he didn't

428
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Speaker 3: even bother to listen to it. He admits, that's exactly right.

429
00:23:31,045 --> 00:23:32,645
Speaker 3: It didn't occur to him to listen to it, right,

430
00:23:32,765 --> 00:23:36,725
Speaker 3: broken record player or not. He's just so focused on

431
00:23:36,765 --> 00:23:41,085
Speaker 3: trying to please her and going through those motions that

432
00:23:41,765 --> 00:23:43,805
Speaker 3: it of course blows up in his face. But he's

433
00:23:43,845 --> 00:23:47,805
Speaker 3: not actually interested in expanding his understanding of the world

434
00:23:47,845 --> 00:23:48,125
Speaker 3: at all.

435
00:23:48,485 --> 00:23:50,285
Speaker 1: No, that's what it is, going through the motions. How

436
00:23:50,365 --> 00:23:52,925
Speaker 1: much of his life is going through the societal motions

437
00:23:52,925 --> 00:23:58,325
Speaker 1: he's observed but doesn't quite know how to genuinely engage

438
00:23:58,325 --> 00:24:00,605
Speaker 1: in himself. Yes, I'll give you a scene that jumped

439
00:24:00,605 --> 00:24:03,925
Speaker 1: out to me where there's some sympathy for Travis Spickele

440
00:24:04,285 --> 00:24:06,245
Speaker 1: And actually this will give me an example to talk

441
00:24:06,245 --> 00:24:08,565
Speaker 1: about the filmmaking too. This choice is scarces he made.

442
00:24:08,605 --> 00:24:12,645
Speaker 1: But there's a moment after the date where he's trying

443
00:24:12,685 --> 00:24:15,125
Speaker 1: to get Betsy back and he's on a payphone in

444
00:24:15,165 --> 00:24:18,005
Speaker 1: a hallway of a building. A payphone is on the wall,

445
00:24:18,085 --> 00:24:20,325
Speaker 1: and the scene begins with him in the center of

446
00:24:20,365 --> 00:24:23,125
Speaker 1: the screen talking on the phone and the conversation. We

447
00:24:23,205 --> 00:24:25,605
Speaker 1: already know that this is not going to go well,

448
00:24:25,645 --> 00:24:27,685
Speaker 1: and sure enough, as he goes on and on, it's

449
00:24:27,805 --> 00:24:30,605
Speaker 1: we can tell this is just he's really bottoming out.

450
00:24:30,405 --> 00:24:30,925
Speaker 4: Here with her.

451
00:24:31,005 --> 00:24:35,165
Speaker 1: Right, you do feel for the it's kind of an embarrassment, like,

452
00:24:35,445 --> 00:24:38,085
Speaker 1: why aren't you recognizing yet that this is not going

453
00:24:38,165 --> 00:24:41,165
Speaker 1: to work? And so you feel some sympathy. Then Scarsese

454
00:24:41,245 --> 00:24:44,605
Speaker 1: does something interesting. The camera cut slides, well, it doesn't

455
00:24:44,645 --> 00:24:48,645
Speaker 1: even cuts, It slides to the right away from de

456
00:24:48,725 --> 00:24:52,125
Speaker 1: Niro and then settles on a hallway going the other way.

457
00:24:52,165 --> 00:24:56,005
Speaker 1: That's completely empty. There's even an open door, and basically,

458
00:24:56,125 --> 00:24:59,245
Speaker 1: just like we've given up, she's given up on him first,

459
00:24:59,565 --> 00:25:03,245
Speaker 1: you're given up on him and the camera, the camera

460
00:25:03,365 --> 00:25:06,605
Speaker 1: itself has now given up on him. So I think

461
00:25:06,605 --> 00:25:09,285
Speaker 1: there are some subtle things like that Scarase does because

462
00:25:09,325 --> 00:25:13,005
Speaker 1: I was surprised that there wasn't as explosive as this

463
00:25:13,085 --> 00:25:17,245
Speaker 1: material is. It's relatively reserved filmmaking from him. If you

464
00:25:17,325 --> 00:25:20,925
Speaker 1: compare not Scarsese to other filmmakers, he's always more dyna

465
00:25:21,325 --> 00:25:24,205
Speaker 1: than most filmmakers. But if you compare Taxi Driver to

466
00:25:24,325 --> 00:25:25,845
Speaker 1: a lot of his other films, I mean, there are

467
00:25:25,885 --> 00:25:29,245
Speaker 1: flourishes here and there, overhead shots, those sorts of things,

468
00:25:30,085 --> 00:25:32,685
Speaker 1: but it's really reserved compared to a lot of his stuff.

469
00:25:32,685 --> 00:25:34,845
Speaker 1: You get a little moment like that, or you get

470
00:25:34,845 --> 00:25:39,645
Speaker 1: the one where how he reveals the infamous mohawk. It's

471
00:25:39,685 --> 00:25:42,245
Speaker 1: not with like a quick shot a close up. It's

472
00:25:42,245 --> 00:25:46,445
Speaker 1: another camera slide right to slide across to bring Travis

473
00:25:46,485 --> 00:25:49,565
Speaker 1: in the crowd into the frame. From the weight, we

474
00:25:49,605 --> 00:25:53,605
Speaker 1: see his waist, so it slides over, then pauses and

475
00:25:53,645 --> 00:25:55,525
Speaker 1: then slides up to show us his head and the

476
00:25:55,605 --> 00:25:58,845
Speaker 1: reveal that he's really like this is this is hairstyle

477
00:25:58,925 --> 00:26:00,765
Speaker 1: number three. I think in the film. First he has

478
00:26:00,845 --> 00:26:03,325
Speaker 1: kind of a boyish normal cut. Then you can tell

479
00:26:03,405 --> 00:26:05,885
Speaker 1: later he's begun to cut his own hair and it's

480
00:26:06,285 --> 00:26:07,885
Speaker 1: not looking too good, and then.

481
00:26:07,765 --> 00:26:09,045
Speaker 4: We get this.

482
00:26:09,245 --> 00:26:12,605
Speaker 1: So a lot of little touches like that that I

483
00:26:12,725 --> 00:26:14,765
Speaker 1: noticed this time. And the other thing I gotta say

484
00:26:14,765 --> 00:26:20,005
Speaker 1: about Scosese, though Top five director Cameo. I mean, he

485
00:26:20,205 --> 00:26:22,485
Speaker 1: is so good in this scene because, and here's what

486
00:26:22,565 --> 00:26:25,685
Speaker 1: jumped out to me, how scary he is as this

487
00:26:25,925 --> 00:26:30,165
Speaker 1: jealous husband stalking his wife at another man's apartment. Scarcese

488
00:26:30,325 --> 00:26:34,605
Speaker 1: is not trying. There is some ugly violent taboo talk there,

489
00:26:35,045 --> 00:26:39,085
Speaker 1: but unlike happens in a lot of you know, Tarantino films,

490
00:26:39,085 --> 00:26:41,485
Speaker 1: for example, Scarsese is not trying to be cool with

491
00:26:41,525 --> 00:26:45,405
Speaker 1: the language at all. He just know, he just embraces

492
00:26:45,445 --> 00:26:49,565
Speaker 1: the ugliness of it, and it is a really effective

493
00:26:49,965 --> 00:26:52,605
Speaker 1: what forty five one minute performance.

494
00:26:53,565 --> 00:26:58,565
Speaker 8: You see the woman in the window? Do you see

495
00:26:58,765 --> 00:27:04,005
Speaker 8: the woman in the window? Yeah, you see the wind,

496
00:27:05,325 --> 00:27:12,045
Speaker 8: So I want you to see him because that's my wife.

497
00:27:10,845 --> 00:27:11,805
Speaker 7: That's not my appartment.

498
00:27:13,645 --> 00:27:17,085
Speaker 3: It's one of the best, most disturbing scenes in the film.

499
00:27:17,085 --> 00:27:19,565
Speaker 3: And of course Noir was on my mind this week

500
00:27:19,605 --> 00:27:22,005
Speaker 3: as we are going to talk about this gun for

501
00:27:22,085 --> 00:27:25,125
Speaker 3: Hire later in the show, and obviously Taxi Driver is

502
00:27:25,165 --> 00:27:27,845
Speaker 3: indebted to Noir, but it occurred to me that that

503
00:27:28,085 --> 00:27:31,605
Speaker 3: entire sequence could almost be its own film. That's its

504
00:27:31,645 --> 00:27:36,045
Speaker 3: own ure war playing out right with the cuckolded husband

505
00:27:36,485 --> 00:27:39,565
Speaker 3: and the man she's up there with and that whole

506
00:27:39,645 --> 00:27:43,405
Speaker 3: illicit affair. So I found that fascinating. I always silhouet

507
00:27:44,205 --> 00:27:47,045
Speaker 3: right exactly, yeah, right in the shadow there, right. It

508
00:27:47,165 --> 00:27:49,965
Speaker 3: definitely makes sense. But did you also catch because I

509
00:27:49,965 --> 00:27:53,445
Speaker 3: didn't catch this apparently back in twenty eleven, that Scorsese

510
00:27:53,565 --> 00:27:55,165
Speaker 3: I think, has two cameos in the film.

511
00:27:55,245 --> 00:27:57,485
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's the first time. Yeah, the first time we

512
00:27:57,485 --> 00:28:01,245
Speaker 1: see Betsy. We notice him leering at her before we

513
00:28:01,325 --> 00:28:04,205
Speaker 1: notice her, Yeah, which is saying something because Sybil Shepherd

514
00:28:04,245 --> 00:28:07,965
Speaker 1: is just dazzling in this movie. I mean, she's very funny,

515
00:28:08,045 --> 00:28:10,965
Speaker 1: very quick as well in terms of her performances, but

516
00:28:11,045 --> 00:28:14,525
Speaker 1: just such a dazzling contrast to the grime of life

517
00:28:14,525 --> 00:28:15,365
Speaker 1: we otherwise get.

518
00:28:15,885 --> 00:28:17,565
Speaker 3: So I was going to get into the score and

519
00:28:17,605 --> 00:28:19,565
Speaker 3: some more of the filmmaking stuff, but as we're talking

520
00:28:19,645 --> 00:28:22,125
Speaker 3: about the cast and how good some of the supporting

521
00:28:22,165 --> 00:28:26,405
Speaker 3: players are, I mean, coming off just rewatching Silence of

522
00:28:26,445 --> 00:28:30,365
Speaker 3: the Lambs. It's pretty striking to see for me how

523
00:28:30,405 --> 00:28:33,645
Speaker 3: fully formed as an actress Jody Foster was even at

524
00:28:33,645 --> 00:28:37,165
Speaker 3: that age. Because that's also a remarkable performance, Like there

525
00:28:37,205 --> 00:28:42,325
Speaker 3: is an ease to that performance and an intellect to it,

526
00:28:42,405 --> 00:28:45,685
Speaker 3: which you talked about in relation to Clarice that comes

527
00:28:45,725 --> 00:28:50,045
Speaker 3: through that has nothing to do with sort of childlike precociousness.

528
00:28:50,165 --> 00:28:53,605
Speaker 3: It's just not there in Foster's performance, and it's so good.

529
00:28:54,125 --> 00:28:55,405
Speaker 7: So what are you gonna do about support in that

530
00:28:55,485 --> 00:29:03,125
Speaker 7: old bastard when when you leave, I don't know, just leave,

531
00:29:03,725 --> 00:29:04,405
Speaker 7: you leave.

532
00:29:04,925 --> 00:29:05,765
Speaker 2: Got plenty of the girls.

533
00:29:05,845 --> 00:29:07,005
Speaker 7: Yeah, but you just can't do that.

534
00:29:07,045 --> 00:29:07,765
Speaker 4: What are you gonna do?

535
00:29:10,165 --> 00:29:10,845
Speaker 2: What do you want me to do?

536
00:29:10,925 --> 00:29:13,045
Speaker 7: Call the cops? Well, the cops don't do nothing, you know.

537
00:29:13,125 --> 00:29:16,325
Speaker 2: I mean, he look sport never treated me bad.

538
00:29:16,365 --> 00:29:18,005
Speaker 7: I mean, he didn't beat me up or anything like

539
00:29:18,045 --> 00:29:18,845
Speaker 7: that once, But.

540
00:29:18,845 --> 00:29:20,965
Speaker 6: You can't allow him to do the same at a girl.

541
00:29:22,125 --> 00:29:23,365
Speaker 4: She's so self possessed.

542
00:29:23,925 --> 00:29:25,605
Speaker 1: The scene of the two of them in the diner,

543
00:29:25,685 --> 00:29:28,845
Speaker 1: you know, talking about why she's why she's chosen this

544
00:29:28,965 --> 00:29:32,285
Speaker 1: life as much as she's had a choice yeah, and

545
00:29:32,325 --> 00:29:36,845
Speaker 1: what twelve or thirteen when filming this, so again we

546
00:29:36,885 --> 00:29:38,485
Speaker 1: can talk about you know, how.

547
00:29:40,125 --> 00:29:42,605
Speaker 4: Is that such a great thing? As good as she.

548
00:29:42,605 --> 00:29:45,365
Speaker 1: Is in the movie, you know that you would you

549
00:29:45,405 --> 00:29:48,485
Speaker 1: would want someone at that age in this sort of part,

550
00:29:48,605 --> 00:29:53,085
Speaker 1: but certainly Foster had the talent to pull it off.

551
00:29:53,165 --> 00:29:54,765
Speaker 1: It's an incredible performance.

552
00:29:55,125 --> 00:29:56,605
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. Now.

553
00:29:57,045 --> 00:30:03,245
Speaker 3: The Bernard Hermann score, the dissonance of the grimy, sleazy

554
00:30:03,325 --> 00:30:07,485
Speaker 3: New York that we see, and the corruption of probably

555
00:30:07,565 --> 00:30:10,525
Speaker 3: multiple characters, but certainly of Bickel in his own mind,

556
00:30:10,885 --> 00:30:16,645
Speaker 3: against the often lushness of that old Hollywood orchestration. It

557
00:30:16,725 --> 00:30:22,645
Speaker 3: really is so startling and often John and maybe it

558
00:30:22,725 --> 00:30:26,445
Speaker 3: goes back to what Schrader was saying that on some level,

559
00:30:26,525 --> 00:30:28,645
Speaker 3: this really is a movie just about a man and

560
00:30:28,725 --> 00:30:32,805
Speaker 3: his romantic problems, or it could be about Scorsese and

561
00:30:32,925 --> 00:30:36,765
Speaker 3: it's its own kind of twisted love letter to New

562
00:30:36,845 --> 00:30:38,925
Speaker 3: York City in some way. But I really think it's

563
00:30:38,965 --> 00:30:43,485
Speaker 3: that ironic contrast which also takes us, maybe we're not

564
00:30:43,565 --> 00:30:45,685
Speaker 3: ready to get there yet, but to the end of

565
00:30:45,725 --> 00:30:49,085
Speaker 3: the film and why I don't see it as a fantasy.

566
00:30:49,245 --> 00:30:51,765
Speaker 3: But I'll talk here instead about the cinematography I mentioned

567
00:30:51,765 --> 00:30:56,725
Speaker 3: in Michael Chapman, those eerie, sickly greens really stood out

568
00:30:56,725 --> 00:30:58,445
Speaker 3: to me this time as he drives the streets of

569
00:30:58,485 --> 00:31:01,845
Speaker 3: New York City, and even from the very beginning in

570
00:31:01,885 --> 00:31:04,565
Speaker 3: the credits where you get that blurry effect where it's

571
00:31:04,605 --> 00:31:08,605
Speaker 3: almost like an impressionist canvas movie that is, like most noirs,

572
00:31:08,685 --> 00:31:11,965
Speaker 3: actually very expressionistic. But there's just this sense from the

573
00:31:12,085 --> 00:31:17,005
Speaker 3: very beginning that there's going to be a complete distortion

574
00:31:17,125 --> 00:31:20,485
Speaker 3: of reality with regard to how Travis perceives the world,

575
00:31:20,605 --> 00:31:25,845
Speaker 3: including these fantasies where he sees himself as the romantic lead,

576
00:31:25,965 --> 00:31:28,205
Speaker 3: you know, when he's out with Betsy, for example, and

577
00:31:28,285 --> 00:31:31,845
Speaker 3: we get that score that kicks in. You mentioned the

578
00:31:31,965 --> 00:31:34,405
Speaker 3: camera move when we see as the mohawk for the

579
00:31:34,405 --> 00:31:37,925
Speaker 3: first time. It comes through that distortion of reality in

580
00:31:38,005 --> 00:31:40,805
Speaker 3: all of the mirror shots of Travis, the reflections, the

581
00:31:40,885 --> 00:31:44,325
Speaker 3: sudden camera pans. Again, there's a real intent here to

582
00:31:44,525 --> 00:31:47,845
Speaker 3: jar the audience. You know, I'd never noticed this before either,

583
00:31:47,925 --> 00:31:50,565
Speaker 3: but he mentions pretty early on that the rain is

584
00:31:50,605 --> 00:31:53,445
Speaker 3: going to come and wash all this scum out, And

585
00:31:53,525 --> 00:31:56,245
Speaker 3: not too long after, Scor says he draws our attention

586
00:31:56,365 --> 00:32:00,885
Speaker 3: as he's driving to a fire hydrant shooting water right

587
00:32:00,965 --> 00:32:03,485
Speaker 3: over the street, and as he's about to approach it,

588
00:32:03,925 --> 00:32:06,805
Speaker 3: he has the wherewithal to roll up his window and

589
00:32:06,805 --> 00:32:08,605
Speaker 3: to not get sprayed by it, you know, as if

590
00:32:08,605 --> 00:32:11,165
Speaker 3: somehow he's not going to be he's not going to

591
00:32:11,165 --> 00:32:13,765
Speaker 3: be baptized by the street, if you will, or maybe

592
00:32:13,805 --> 00:32:17,725
Speaker 3: this stand in for the rain. The water isn't isn't

593
00:32:17,725 --> 00:32:20,405
Speaker 3: going to get him. He's exempt from the rain in

594
00:32:20,445 --> 00:32:23,485
Speaker 3: some way, depending on your reading of it. But it's

595
00:32:23,525 --> 00:32:27,125
Speaker 3: notable that while he might not get sprayed, his car does.

596
00:32:27,445 --> 00:32:30,845
Speaker 3: And then the view out his windshield Scorsese lingers on

597
00:32:30,885 --> 00:32:32,885
Speaker 3: as he's looking at those New York City streets, and

598
00:32:32,925 --> 00:32:34,885
Speaker 3: it takes a while for all that rain to go

599
00:32:34,965 --> 00:32:38,165
Speaker 3: away and the blurriness to go away. That's the entire

600
00:32:38,245 --> 00:32:40,885
Speaker 3: film and Travis's view of the world in a nutshell.

601
00:32:40,925 --> 00:32:43,445
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the most impressionistic shot is when the water

602
00:32:43,565 --> 00:32:46,325
Speaker 1: is rolling off the windshield and you see those lights

603
00:32:46,365 --> 00:32:50,245
Speaker 1: and as you talk about the green in Chapman cinematography,

604
00:32:50,685 --> 00:32:54,005
Speaker 1: and also I would say the red glow that we

605
00:32:54,085 --> 00:32:56,605
Speaker 1: get in so many neon signs, it's almost like those

606
00:32:56,645 --> 00:33:00,805
Speaker 1: signs which the movie associates a couple of times with

607
00:33:01,165 --> 00:33:03,325
Speaker 1: Porn Marquis, Porn Theater, Marquee.

608
00:33:03,325 --> 00:33:05,285
Speaker 4: It's like they've bled.

609
00:33:05,005 --> 00:33:08,685
Speaker 1: Into the atmosphere somehow, and it's not just the signs

610
00:33:08,845 --> 00:33:12,525
Speaker 1: giving off that light anymore. It's everything. And then that's

611
00:33:12,605 --> 00:33:16,045
Speaker 1: maybe how it feels in Travis's head. It's very different

612
00:33:16,085 --> 00:33:18,925
Speaker 1: than not too long ago we discussed Paris, Texas the

613
00:33:19,045 --> 00:33:22,325
Speaker 1: ven Vendors film, and the the beauty of the neon

614
00:33:22,445 --> 00:33:26,765
Speaker 1: signs in that movie, it's there is beauty. There's a

615
00:33:26,765 --> 00:33:29,805
Speaker 1: crispness and a clearness and a sharpness to it. And

616
00:33:30,005 --> 00:33:34,365
Speaker 1: here Chapman takes the same material and gives it alluridness

617
00:33:34,445 --> 00:33:39,005
Speaker 1: and an infectiousness that carries over into the entire rest

618
00:33:39,165 --> 00:33:41,725
Speaker 1: of the film. And I would also say about the

619
00:33:41,765 --> 00:33:46,405
Speaker 1: Hermann score, Yeah, it's as you're describing it. It's it's

620
00:33:46,445 --> 00:33:49,245
Speaker 1: like a split personality score, isn't it, Because we have

621
00:33:49,485 --> 00:33:53,405
Speaker 1: these we have these sexy, mournful saxophones, which would be

622
00:33:53,525 --> 00:33:56,965
Speaker 1: very much of the period. It's it's very seventies. And

623
00:33:57,045 --> 00:33:59,045
Speaker 1: then that's Travis's fantasy.

624
00:33:59,205 --> 00:34:00,245
Speaker 4: And then we get.

625
00:34:00,125 --> 00:34:03,365
Speaker 1: Our reality, the viewers reality, which is where you hear

626
00:34:03,405 --> 00:34:08,205
Speaker 1: those threatening suspense chords that that are reminiscent of some

627
00:34:08,325 --> 00:34:10,885
Speaker 1: of Hermann's work for Hitchcock, I put it's it was interesting.

628
00:34:10,925 --> 00:34:14,285
Speaker 1: The day after I watched this, I put on I

629
00:34:14,364 --> 00:34:18,045
Speaker 1: just chose Psycho and maybe another Herman score is more

630
00:34:18,085 --> 00:34:20,884
Speaker 1: reminiscent of Taxi Driver what we get here, but may

631
00:34:21,205 --> 00:34:24,325
Speaker 1: was there a lot of a lot of similarities there

632
00:34:24,364 --> 00:34:26,805
Speaker 1: In listening to those back to back, we just get this. Yeah,

633
00:34:26,844 --> 00:34:32,365
Speaker 1: it's old Hollywood instrumentation, but also the threatening suspense nature

634
00:34:32,485 --> 00:34:35,485
Speaker 1: of it. So we've talked about Trader, mentioned Trader a

635
00:34:35,525 --> 00:34:38,325
Speaker 1: couple of times. There's one thing about the script that

636
00:34:38,365 --> 00:34:41,765
Speaker 1: I really want to highlight, which I just think is

637
00:34:41,805 --> 00:34:45,444
Speaker 1: so clever and has a lot of thematic resonance too.

638
00:34:45,565 --> 00:34:49,285
Speaker 1: And it's the trail of the twenty dollars bill. And

639
00:34:49,445 --> 00:34:52,605
Speaker 1: this is the bill that Harvey kai Tell's Sport throws

640
00:34:52,645 --> 00:34:55,245
Speaker 1: at Travis to get him to leave when he yanks

641
00:34:55,245 --> 00:34:57,845
Speaker 1: Iris out of the cap the first time that he

642
00:34:57,965 --> 00:35:01,485
Speaker 1: encounters Sport, I think, and it lands on his seat.

643
00:35:01,605 --> 00:35:04,485
Speaker 1: He looks at it with disgust because he's this is

644
00:35:04,525 --> 00:35:06,405
Speaker 1: the first time he started to entertaining these ideas of

645
00:35:06,445 --> 00:35:08,525
Speaker 1: saving Iris. Right, she gets yanked out of the cab,

646
00:35:09,045 --> 00:35:11,045
Speaker 1: he leaves it there, crumpled on the seat till he

647
00:35:11,045 --> 00:35:13,365
Speaker 1: gets to the garage at night, and then pauses and

648
00:35:13,405 --> 00:35:16,125
Speaker 1: then kind of shoves it in his pocket. We see

649
00:35:16,165 --> 00:35:21,125
Speaker 1: that bill again, I think three times later. I think

650
00:35:21,125 --> 00:35:24,885
Speaker 1: he almost pays for something once but doesn't use it.

651
00:35:24,885 --> 00:35:27,685
Speaker 1: He uses different cash, still it's crumpled up. At the

652
00:35:27,685 --> 00:35:29,925
Speaker 1: coffee shop, he owes a guy some money, five bucks,

653
00:35:30,325 --> 00:35:32,725
Speaker 1: so we see him pull that out next to the

654
00:35:32,765 --> 00:35:35,365
Speaker 1: other cash he has. And then the last time we

655
00:35:35,405 --> 00:35:37,925
Speaker 1: see it is when he rents the room with Iris,

656
00:35:37,965 --> 00:35:39,725
Speaker 1: where he thinks he's going to convince her to leave.

657
00:35:39,805 --> 00:35:42,205
Speaker 1: He's got to pay this guy to rent the room,

658
00:35:42,245 --> 00:35:45,925
Speaker 1: and he slams it in the guy's hand, and running

659
00:35:45,965 --> 00:35:48,805
Speaker 1: through all those make it seem like this really obvious,

660
00:35:49,125 --> 00:35:52,245
Speaker 1: heavy handed symbol. But maybe it isn't a script, but

661
00:35:52,285 --> 00:35:55,285
Speaker 1: the way Scorsese kind of just lightly makes space for

662
00:35:55,325 --> 00:36:00,605
Speaker 1: those moments makes it incredibly, incredibly effective. And yeah, I

663
00:36:00,685 --> 00:36:02,805
Speaker 1: was just curious if that was in the original script

664
00:36:02,805 --> 00:36:06,005
Speaker 1: and if the versions I saw online are true it was.

665
00:36:06,045 --> 00:36:07,125
Speaker 4: I think that's a great touch.

666
00:36:07,485 --> 00:36:09,725
Speaker 3: Well, it is a great touch, and it is subtle

667
00:36:09,805 --> 00:36:12,205
Speaker 3: enough that I probably missed. I'm pretty sure I missed

668
00:36:12,205 --> 00:36:14,645
Speaker 3: at least one of the times you mentioned, and it's

669
00:36:14,685 --> 00:36:18,805
Speaker 3: not something I'd paid any attention to before on previous viewings.

670
00:36:18,845 --> 00:36:21,364
Speaker 3: And yet this time, when he leaves it on the chair,

671
00:36:21,485 --> 00:36:24,165
Speaker 3: you see how he considers the money in a close

672
00:36:24,245 --> 00:36:26,725
Speaker 3: up when it's thrown in in the first place, and

673
00:36:26,765 --> 00:36:29,405
Speaker 3: then when he gets back and he parks the cab,

674
00:36:30,045 --> 00:36:32,245
Speaker 3: he has to make that decision and as a symbol

675
00:36:32,445 --> 00:36:36,205
Speaker 3: of again kind of his own corruption but his sense

676
00:36:36,245 --> 00:36:39,725
Speaker 3: of moral superiority, that he's not going to take that money.

677
00:36:39,965 --> 00:36:43,685
Speaker 3: But of course he also sort of maybe and this

678
00:36:43,725 --> 00:36:46,005
Speaker 3: would be fitting for Strader. It's almost like a cross

679
00:36:46,005 --> 00:36:48,605
Speaker 3: he bears, right, It's that he's going to keep that

680
00:36:48,605 --> 00:36:51,045
Speaker 3: twenty dollars bill because it's going to be the reminder

681
00:36:51,125 --> 00:36:54,525
Speaker 3: to him of what he's not total he hopes to

682
00:36:54,565 --> 00:36:54,805
Speaker 3: not be.

683
00:36:54,885 --> 00:36:56,645
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's his token in that way. I agree. It's

684
00:36:56,885 --> 00:36:58,645
Speaker 2: a great screenwriting touch.

685
00:36:58,805 --> 00:37:01,525
Speaker 3: So Dana and I did talk about the ending in

686
00:37:01,565 --> 00:37:05,285
Speaker 3: twenty eleven, and it turns out my thoughts about it

687
00:37:05,445 --> 00:37:09,365
Speaker 3: haven't really changed since then. In short, there is a

688
00:37:09,405 --> 00:37:13,685
Speaker 3: reading of the film that suggests maybe everything that happens

689
00:37:13,765 --> 00:37:18,125
Speaker 3: after the blood bath is a fantasy, and there's different

690
00:37:18,285 --> 00:37:23,525
Speaker 3: evidence people point to, including the overhead shot, which is

691
00:37:23,525 --> 00:37:27,364
Speaker 3: almost like a view from heaven it's been suggested there

692
00:37:27,405 --> 00:37:29,765
Speaker 3: near the end. And then the fact that everything that

693
00:37:29,805 --> 00:37:32,285
Speaker 3: happens in this I totally agree with, everything that happens

694
00:37:32,325 --> 00:37:36,844
Speaker 3: after the police show up seems somehow a little bit

695
00:37:36,885 --> 00:37:41,285
Speaker 3: tacked on false or maybe like a fantasy. You certainly

696
00:37:41,365 --> 00:37:44,405
Speaker 3: see it in that exchange with Sybil Shepherd when she

697
00:37:44,445 --> 00:37:49,285
Speaker 3: gets in the cab, and that's something where it's definitely

698
00:37:49,285 --> 00:37:53,125
Speaker 3: not clear from watching it that we are supposed to

699
00:37:53,205 --> 00:37:55,485
Speaker 3: completely believe that she ever got in the car. There's

700
00:37:55,525 --> 00:37:58,205
Speaker 3: something about the shot reverse shot of him looking at

701
00:37:58,205 --> 00:38:00,685
Speaker 3: her and us only seeing her in the rearview mirror.

702
00:38:00,725 --> 00:38:03,725
Speaker 3: It's almost again like it's his perception, he's projecting her

703
00:38:03,805 --> 00:38:06,845
Speaker 3: there in the backseat. That all said, where do you

704
00:38:06,885 --> 00:38:08,125
Speaker 3: fall on that theory?

705
00:38:08,205 --> 00:38:08,485
Speaker 2: Josh?

706
00:38:08,805 --> 00:38:11,045
Speaker 1: So, I think this takes us back to Chris Christofferson

707
00:38:11,205 --> 00:38:15,765
Speaker 1: actually in that conversation, because one other question that we've

708
00:38:15,805 --> 00:38:18,565
Speaker 1: touched on lightly but is why did Betsy ever even

709
00:38:18,605 --> 00:38:21,205
Speaker 1: agree to go get that cup of coffee with this guy?

710
00:38:22,325 --> 00:38:25,965
Speaker 1: And so that's already kind of planting this seed of

711
00:38:26,165 --> 00:38:29,645
Speaker 1: how much of his interaction with her is he imagining

712
00:38:29,685 --> 00:38:32,485
Speaker 1: now the movie toys with us because she gives him

713
00:38:32,485 --> 00:38:35,005
Speaker 1: a reason and thereby gives us a reason. She says

714
00:38:35,045 --> 00:38:38,844
Speaker 1: she's interested, she's intrigued by his contradictions, and that's what

715
00:38:38,925 --> 00:38:41,605
Speaker 1: makes her think of the Christofferson song The Pilgrim, Chapter

716
00:38:41,645 --> 00:38:45,205
Speaker 1: thirty three. So we could tell ourselves that, Okay, she's curious.

717
00:38:46,325 --> 00:38:50,325
Speaker 1: But I really think not everything, but a vast majority

718
00:38:50,365 --> 00:38:53,844
Speaker 1: of what we see between Travis and Betsy is some

719
00:38:53,885 --> 00:38:56,725
Speaker 1: sort of fantasy. And think of what he tells her

720
00:38:57,245 --> 00:39:00,364
Speaker 1: in that conversation. He says he could tell she wasn't

721
00:39:00,405 --> 00:39:04,045
Speaker 1: a happy person when he watched her talk to Albert Brooks.

722
00:39:04,685 --> 00:39:07,325
Speaker 1: But we've been given and I forgot how many scenes

723
00:39:07,325 --> 00:39:10,925
Speaker 1: we got between Brooks and Shepherd. We get like a

724
00:39:10,965 --> 00:39:14,165
Speaker 1: fair amount of them, and every time we get one

725
00:39:14,165 --> 00:39:16,925
Speaker 1: of them, they seem to be pretty happy. They have

726
00:39:16,965 --> 00:39:20,845
Speaker 1: a rapport, they're flirty, they're like giving it back and

727
00:39:21,085 --> 00:39:21,924
Speaker 1: forth to each other.

728
00:39:22,125 --> 00:39:24,605
Speaker 3: His distorted view of the world, he's a threat, so

729
00:39:24,685 --> 00:39:25,645
Speaker 3: he perceives those.

730
00:39:25,525 --> 00:39:27,325
Speaker 4: Guys exactly exactly.

731
00:39:27,485 --> 00:39:30,085
Speaker 1: So why you know she is She seems to be

732
00:39:30,125 --> 00:39:34,605
Speaker 1: a happy person, so right, it's his distorted perception. Now,

733
00:39:34,725 --> 00:39:38,325
Speaker 1: I don't think everything after the massacre is a fantasy,

734
00:39:39,045 --> 00:39:41,285
Speaker 1: and this takes us to the top of our conversation.

735
00:39:41,445 --> 00:39:44,245
Speaker 1: I think there's a very there's some interesting commentary in

736
00:39:44,285 --> 00:39:47,925
Speaker 1: the fact that Travis is celebrated as the hero, and

737
00:39:47,965 --> 00:39:50,805
Speaker 1: I think it's more revelatory. We're living with that now,

738
00:39:50,965 --> 00:39:54,645
Speaker 1: right with the media distortion of things makes it extra

739
00:39:54,685 --> 00:39:58,485
Speaker 1: resonant today. But I do think that her getting in

740
00:39:58,485 --> 00:40:02,645
Speaker 1: the cab is fantasy. And here's here's why.

741
00:40:02,725 --> 00:40:03,285
Speaker 4: And it's a.

742
00:40:03,325 --> 00:40:07,365
Speaker 1: Very brief filmmaking touch. It's partly the look in the

743
00:40:07,365 --> 00:40:09,685
Speaker 1: rear room mirror that you talked about, where she seems

744
00:40:09,765 --> 00:40:13,364
Speaker 1: like she's in this dream space. It's almost like we're

745
00:40:13,405 --> 00:40:15,805
Speaker 1: not in the cab anymore, but we're into this portal

746
00:40:15,845 --> 00:40:19,165
Speaker 1: to another dimension, right how the mirror frames her. But

747
00:40:19,325 --> 00:40:22,085
Speaker 1: if you notice, there's a really weird moment. He drops

748
00:40:22,085 --> 00:40:25,245
Speaker 1: her off on this leafy tree line, nice street, her home,

749
00:40:25,325 --> 00:40:29,525
Speaker 1: we presume, and pulls away, watches her in the rearview mirror,

750
00:40:29,565 --> 00:40:32,045
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, he does a double take.

751
00:40:32,445 --> 00:40:35,765
Speaker 1: The sound on the soundtrack actually distorts, it's almost like

752
00:40:35,765 --> 00:40:38,845
Speaker 1: a record scratch, and he looks back in the mirror

753
00:40:39,245 --> 00:40:42,405
Speaker 1: and the immediate next thing we see is not her

754
00:40:42,485 --> 00:40:46,925
Speaker 1: leafy green street, but it's the neon soaked, grimy streets

755
00:40:46,965 --> 00:40:50,444
Speaker 1: that he usually drives down. And so I think that's

756
00:40:50,485 --> 00:40:53,045
Speaker 1: the transition of he was just imagining that he was

757
00:40:53,085 --> 00:40:57,924
Speaker 1: with another woman in another place, and in reality he's

758
00:40:58,365 --> 00:41:00,645
Speaker 1: right back where he had been at the beginning of

759
00:41:00,645 --> 00:41:01,125
Speaker 1: the film.

760
00:41:01,365 --> 00:41:04,005
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think we're completely aligned. If you're suggesting

761
00:41:04,045 --> 00:41:07,445
Speaker 3: that maybe some of the sequences with Shepherd even earlier

762
00:41:07,765 --> 00:41:10,405
Speaker 3: were fantasy, potentially, is that what you're saying.

763
00:41:10,205 --> 00:41:12,844
Speaker 1: I would say his experience of it, or you know,

764
00:41:12,925 --> 00:41:17,685
Speaker 1: the way it's being presented, is the way he's sort.

765
00:41:17,405 --> 00:41:18,285
Speaker 4: Of seeing it.

766
00:41:18,725 --> 00:41:22,005
Speaker 3: Well, again, I'm completely aligned with him seeing the world

767
00:41:22,125 --> 00:41:25,085
Speaker 3: completely differently than everyone else around him, including the people

768
00:41:25,365 --> 00:41:26,685
Speaker 3: he's sitting across from.

769
00:41:27,005 --> 00:41:28,005
Speaker 2: And I agree with you.

770
00:41:28,485 --> 00:41:31,205
Speaker 3: I think that we're supposed to read that entire exchange

771
00:41:31,245 --> 00:41:33,085
Speaker 3: in the cab at the end with Sybil Shepherd as

772
00:41:33,125 --> 00:41:36,725
Speaker 3: a fantasy, But that doesn't mean everything that happens at

773
00:41:36,765 --> 00:41:40,285
Speaker 3: the end is a fantasy. I do reject that, and

774
00:41:40,325 --> 00:41:43,285
Speaker 3: I reject it one for the reason you said, which

775
00:41:43,325 --> 00:41:48,645
Speaker 3: is there is a beautiful, profound irony in the way

776
00:41:48,685 --> 00:41:51,405
Speaker 3: he is celebrated, which again comes back to this idea

777
00:41:51,485 --> 00:41:55,965
Speaker 3: of the perception of reality, because it's very easy to

778
00:41:56,165 --> 00:41:58,285
Speaker 3: just put what he did into frame it the way

779
00:41:58,405 --> 00:42:02,885
Speaker 3: the media does, which is, you know, vigilante rescues, rescues

780
00:42:02,965 --> 00:42:06,405
Speaker 3: girl and kills a pimp. You know, if you just

781
00:42:06,445 --> 00:42:07,885
Speaker 3: look at it that way and you don't see what

782
00:42:07,965 --> 00:42:09,765
Speaker 3: we saw, or you don't know a little bit more

783
00:42:09,805 --> 00:42:12,404
Speaker 3: about the situation and how disturbed Travis is, it's very

784
00:42:12,445 --> 00:42:17,525
Speaker 3: easy to buy that narrative, even the narrative that Iris's

785
00:42:17,565 --> 00:42:22,245
Speaker 3: parents are probably selling to themselves right, and isn't completely

786
00:42:22,245 --> 00:42:25,245
Speaker 3: true about how she's assimilated back home and boy, she's

787
00:42:25,285 --> 00:42:27,805
Speaker 3: been rescued. It's all tied up in this idea that

788
00:42:27,885 --> 00:42:31,445
Speaker 3: the world misperceives what Travis did. Travis now sees himself

789
00:42:31,445 --> 00:42:34,085
Speaker 3: falsely as a hero, and this idea of kind of

790
00:42:34,125 --> 00:42:38,645
Speaker 3: a collective bloodlust, where as Americans we all go, well,

791
00:42:38,765 --> 00:42:41,165
Speaker 3: damn right, they had it coming, so he did the

792
00:42:41,245 --> 00:42:44,965
Speaker 3: right thing. If it's all a fantasy, then that commentary

793
00:42:45,165 --> 00:42:48,045
Speaker 3: is completely watered down. And what else is watered down

794
00:42:48,605 --> 00:42:51,404
Speaker 3: is the moment you spoke to at the end, which

795
00:42:51,445 --> 00:42:55,645
Speaker 3: is that amazing punch of the grabbing of the review mirror,

796
00:42:55,645 --> 00:42:57,844
Speaker 3: I think right, and the jarringness of it, and all

797
00:42:57,845 --> 00:43:00,565
Speaker 3: of a sudden, we're back to a certain reality. And

798
00:43:00,605 --> 00:43:04,165
Speaker 3: I think that certain reality is coming back from the

799
00:43:04,165 --> 00:43:07,925
Speaker 3: fantasy that he was just engaged in with Sybil Shepherd

800
00:43:07,925 --> 00:43:10,165
Speaker 3: in his back seat. But it's also this reality that

801
00:43:11,245 --> 00:43:15,525
Speaker 3: any progress somehow that Travis seems to have made, this

802
00:43:15,645 --> 00:43:21,765
Speaker 3: idea that maybe by committing this act and being the

803
00:43:22,085 --> 00:43:25,405
Speaker 3: Avenger has somehow now set him right with the world

804
00:43:25,885 --> 00:43:29,885
Speaker 3: and he's no longer going to be a threat to society.

805
00:43:30,285 --> 00:43:32,765
Speaker 3: We know in that moment, with that cut and with

806
00:43:32,885 --> 00:43:36,285
Speaker 3: the sound, that that's not true, that Travis is still

807
00:43:36,325 --> 00:43:37,645
Speaker 3: disturbed as he's ever been.

808
00:43:38,125 --> 00:43:40,165
Speaker 1: And do you think maybe even like the letter from

809
00:43:40,165 --> 00:43:44,645
Speaker 1: mister Steinsma from Iris's father, which which seems to be

810
00:43:44,725 --> 00:43:47,404
Speaker 1: kind of like a practice run for Schrader's hardcore, because

811
00:43:47,565 --> 00:43:49,364
Speaker 1: I think that came a few years later and had

812
00:43:49,485 --> 00:43:52,205
Speaker 1: a similar plot about a father going after his daughter

813
00:43:52,285 --> 00:43:55,765
Speaker 1: runaway daughter. But I wonder if even that is imagined,

814
00:43:55,885 --> 00:43:58,565
Speaker 1: because just because of the detail of the father making

815
00:43:58,965 --> 00:44:01,525
Speaker 1: so many excuses about how we can't come out to

816
00:44:01,565 --> 00:44:04,445
Speaker 1: see you, like we don't have any more money, and

817
00:44:04,485 --> 00:44:08,125
Speaker 1: it's almost like he's inventing these reasons why these people

818
00:44:08,205 --> 00:44:11,485
Speaker 1: won't actually interact with him because maybe they don't exist.

819
00:44:11,965 --> 00:44:14,845
Speaker 3: Well, we saw earlier him writing a note that was

820
00:44:14,965 --> 00:44:18,325
Speaker 3: mostly a fabrication to his parents, so I wouldn't put

821
00:44:18,325 --> 00:44:21,365
Speaker 3: it past him to fabricate that letter paying true to

822
00:44:21,445 --> 00:44:24,605
Speaker 3: him as a hero either. For more on our seven

823
00:44:24,645 --> 00:44:27,445
Speaker 3: from seventy six Best Year Ever series, including previous and

824
00:44:27,485 --> 00:44:31,645
Speaker 3: future reviews, visit film Spotting dot Net Slash seven from

825
00:44:31,685 --> 00:44:32,325
Speaker 3: seventy six.

826
00:44:34,325 --> 00:44:36,325
Speaker 7: Yeah, people do anything in front of a taxi drive.

827
00:44:36,365 --> 00:44:40,525
Speaker 7: I mean anything. People too cheap to run a hotel room.

828
00:44:40,725 --> 00:44:41,685
Speaker 3: Or drive a hurry up.

829
00:44:41,685 --> 00:44:44,165
Speaker 7: Well this people want to embarrass you. It's like here,

830
00:44:44,205 --> 00:44:44,805
Speaker 7: not even there.

831
00:44:44,805 --> 00:44:47,445
Speaker 6: It's like, you know, like a taxi driver doesn't even exist.

832
00:44:47,725 --> 00:44:50,805
Speaker 3: I've seen there from Martin Scorsese's Taxi Driver, a movie

833
00:44:50,805 --> 00:44:52,925
Speaker 3: that was part of one of my favorite Best Picture

834
00:44:52,925 --> 00:44:55,965
Speaker 3: crops ever in nineteen seventy six, along with Network and

835
00:44:55,965 --> 00:44:58,525
Speaker 3: All the President's Men and Rocky, which did win the

836
00:44:58,565 --> 00:45:00,365
Speaker 3: Oscar and I love Rocky, don't get me wrong, but

837
00:45:00,365 --> 00:45:03,485
Speaker 3: I'd rank it probably fourth behind those other three movies.

838
00:45:03,765 --> 00:45:06,805
Speaker 3: There were no wins for Taxi Driver, despite four nominations

839
00:45:06,845 --> 00:45:10,165
Speaker 3: for Best Picture, obviously supporting Actress for Jodi Foster as

840
00:45:10,205 --> 00:45:13,725
Speaker 3: the twelve year old prostitute, Iris for Score and for

841
00:45:13,925 --> 00:45:15,805
Speaker 3: Best Actor for Robert de Niro in one of his

842
00:45:15,925 --> 00:45:19,565
Speaker 3: most memorable roles ever as Travis Bickle, the disillusion lonely

843
00:45:19,645 --> 00:45:22,165
Speaker 3: Vietnam vett who watches quote all the animals come out

844
00:45:22,165 --> 00:45:24,005
Speaker 3: at night from the seat of his cab and hopes

845
00:45:24,045 --> 00:45:26,605
Speaker 3: that someday a real rain will come and wash all

846
00:45:26,605 --> 00:45:29,965
Speaker 3: this scum off the streets. In honor of Taxi Drivers

847
00:45:30,005 --> 00:45:32,725
Speaker 3: thirty fifth anniversary and the Blu ray release coming out

848
00:45:32,725 --> 00:45:35,965
Speaker 3: this Tuesday, AMC Theaters had screenings across the country on

849
00:45:36,045 --> 00:45:38,884
Speaker 3: March nineteenth and March twenty second. Dana, we both caught

850
00:45:38,925 --> 00:45:40,765
Speaker 3: it on the big screen. It was the first time

851
00:45:40,805 --> 00:45:42,645
Speaker 3: I'd seen it in more than fifteen years, so I

852
00:45:42,685 --> 00:45:44,565
Speaker 3: almost felt like I was watching it for the first time.

853
00:45:44,605 --> 00:45:47,765
Speaker 3: I know from listening to your Slate Spoiler Special podcast

854
00:45:47,805 --> 00:45:51,085
Speaker 3: that you had a similar reaction to it and are

855
00:45:51,165 --> 00:45:54,805
Speaker 3: always erudite and often contrarian. Film spotting producer Sam van

856
00:45:54,845 --> 00:45:57,365
Speaker 3: Halgren also got a night out and saw the re release,

857
00:45:57,485 --> 00:45:59,884
Speaker 3: which prompted some chatter between us over email. I hope

858
00:45:59,885 --> 00:46:02,125
Speaker 3: he won't mind that I'm going to poach the question

859
00:46:02,325 --> 00:46:04,125
Speaker 3: he posed to me and oppose it to you now,

860
00:46:04,245 --> 00:46:06,165
Speaker 3: because I think it's a really good one. He acknowledges

861
00:46:06,245 --> 00:46:08,565
Speaker 3: that de Niro is beyond brilliant as bikel and he

862
00:46:08,645 --> 00:46:11,685
Speaker 3: gets why it's so beloved, but he ultimately wonders, what

863
00:46:11,885 --> 00:46:14,885
Speaker 3: makes this a great film today as opposed to in

864
00:46:14,925 --> 00:46:15,364
Speaker 3: its day?

865
00:46:15,765 --> 00:46:17,085
Speaker 2: How do you answer that? Ah?

866
00:46:17,125 --> 00:46:19,885
Speaker 9: So his argument was that it's locked in to the

867
00:46:19,965 --> 00:46:23,165
Speaker 9: mid seventies, it's time and it feels dated. Now. Wow,

868
00:46:23,245 --> 00:46:25,245
Speaker 9: I topically disagree, but I don't really have an argument

869
00:46:25,285 --> 00:46:27,525
Speaker 9: except to say that I just don't feel that. Watching

870
00:46:27,525 --> 00:46:30,085
Speaker 9: the movie, I felt that it was incredibly topical and alive,

871
00:46:30,205 --> 00:46:31,765
Speaker 9: and I had that feeling that you feel when you

872
00:46:31,805 --> 00:46:33,325
Speaker 9: watch a great work of art and say, wow, this

873
00:46:33,365 --> 00:46:35,364
Speaker 9: says something new to me now than it did when

874
00:46:35,405 --> 00:46:36,005
Speaker 9: I first saw it.

875
00:46:36,365 --> 00:46:37,005
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.

876
00:46:37,045 --> 00:46:38,925
Speaker 3: I think that in its grittiness and its style and

877
00:46:38,925 --> 00:46:41,125
Speaker 3: that sense of alienation that just pervades the whole film,

878
00:46:41,165 --> 00:46:44,485
Speaker 3: there's no doubt it's a nineteen seventies American film, in

879
00:46:44,485 --> 00:46:46,605
Speaker 3: a nineteen seventies New York film. You probably know this

880
00:46:46,605 --> 00:46:48,645
Speaker 3: a lot better than I do. That Times Square just

881
00:46:48,685 --> 00:46:51,045
Speaker 3: doesn't exist anymore. A lot of those scenes that we

882
00:46:51,085 --> 00:46:53,805
Speaker 3: see of him walking or in his cab late at night.

883
00:46:53,845 --> 00:46:55,844
Speaker 3: But I do think it's a great film today. I'm

884
00:46:55,885 --> 00:46:58,285
Speaker 3: with you because it does seem timeless to me as well.

885
00:46:58,325 --> 00:47:02,565
Speaker 3: It's still very audacious cinematically, especially in how it depicts violence.

886
00:47:02,605 --> 00:47:04,245
Speaker 3: I think that still shocks you a little bit. And

887
00:47:04,285 --> 00:47:06,725
Speaker 3: I think that the politics of the movie are largely

888
00:47:06,805 --> 00:47:10,485
Speaker 3: secondary to this very vivid portrait of paints of loneliness.

889
00:47:10,525 --> 00:47:13,325
Speaker 3: I think that the senator who's running for president, Palatine,

890
00:47:13,325 --> 00:47:15,285
Speaker 3: his speeches are really full of kind of the same

891
00:47:15,325 --> 00:47:18,925
Speaker 3: bland rhetoric we hear today. It's sort of universal, and

892
00:47:18,965 --> 00:47:20,965
Speaker 3: I think that sadly, there probably are a lot of

893
00:47:21,085 --> 00:47:23,165
Speaker 3: Travis Bickles out there. In some ways, they're may be

894
00:47:23,245 --> 00:47:25,805
Speaker 3: even more dangerous because I was thinking about it. You know,

895
00:47:25,845 --> 00:47:28,405
Speaker 3: Travis's enemy, if he has one, he thinks he has

896
00:47:28,445 --> 00:47:30,405
Speaker 3: a lot of them. But there it's really just himself.

897
00:47:30,445 --> 00:47:32,965
Speaker 3: He's more self destructive than anything. You see how he

898
00:47:33,125 --> 00:47:36,045
Speaker 3: eats and how he lives. But there isn't one group

899
00:47:36,085 --> 00:47:38,844
Speaker 3: of people that he can pinpoint as the cause of

900
00:47:38,885 --> 00:47:42,165
Speaker 3: his miserable life. He doesn't hate, even Palatine, the guy

901
00:47:42,205 --> 00:47:45,645
Speaker 3: he plans to kill because he just really doesn't have

902
00:47:45,645 --> 00:47:47,405
Speaker 3: any conviction about that one way or another. I think

903
00:47:47,445 --> 00:47:49,485
Speaker 3: he's caught up in a more general malaise, this kind

904
00:47:49,525 --> 00:47:52,245
Speaker 3: of intangible malaise, which is also what makes it so frustrating,

905
00:47:52,325 --> 00:47:54,285
Speaker 3: makes it so you have such the sense.

906
00:47:54,125 --> 00:47:55,605
Speaker 2: Of utility that you can't pinpoint.

907
00:47:55,645 --> 00:47:57,405
Speaker 3: And I think that today, one of the things that

908
00:47:57,445 --> 00:48:00,685
Speaker 3: struck me were so divided culturally and politically that the

909
00:48:00,725 --> 00:48:04,245
Speaker 3: bickles out there can probably more easily find a target

910
00:48:04,285 --> 00:48:06,885
Speaker 3: to try and take down. I think about Gabrielle Gifford's

911
00:48:06,885 --> 00:48:07,885
Speaker 3: in Arizona.

912
00:48:08,165 --> 00:48:09,884
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, I think that's another thing that makes

913
00:48:09,925 --> 00:48:12,685
Speaker 9: this movie. Again, to answer Sam's question, that makes it

914
00:48:12,725 --> 00:48:15,005
Speaker 9: still vibrant now, is that in nineteen seventy six when

915
00:48:15,045 --> 00:48:16,845
Speaker 9: it was made, it was a prophecy, right, it was

916
00:48:16,885 --> 00:48:19,245
Speaker 9: a prophetic kind of film, And now it's actually happened

917
00:48:19,325 --> 00:48:21,205
Speaker 9: multiple times over. It's just weird to think that this

918
00:48:21,245 --> 00:48:23,765
Speaker 9: movie was made when John Lennon was still alive, before

919
00:48:23,765 --> 00:48:26,685
Speaker 9: Reagan was even president, much less you know, the assassination attempt,

920
00:48:26,845 --> 00:48:28,845
Speaker 9: of course by someone who was obsessed with Jodie Foster.

921
00:48:28,885 --> 00:48:31,245
Speaker 9: I mean, you could, I guess even argue that taxi

922
00:48:31,285 --> 00:48:34,085
Speaker 9: driver created some Travis Bickles, right, but at the very

923
00:48:34,125 --> 00:48:37,605
Speaker 9: least it predicted this, this whole series of Travis Bickles that

924
00:48:37,645 --> 00:48:39,725
Speaker 9: have existed, I mean, including the Columbine Shooters. You could

925
00:48:39,725 --> 00:48:42,325
Speaker 9: connect so many acts of violence to this kind of

926
00:48:42,325 --> 00:48:44,805
Speaker 9: psychology that you see taken apart in Travis Bickle. That

927
00:48:44,845 --> 00:48:47,125
Speaker 9: feels familiar to us now because of you know, current

928
00:48:47,165 --> 00:48:49,245
Speaker 9: events that have answered it, and because this movie's become

929
00:48:49,285 --> 00:48:51,605
Speaker 9: so iconic, But it must have felt so strange at

930
00:48:51,605 --> 00:48:53,405
Speaker 9: the time that this was the hero of a movie.

931
00:48:53,445 --> 00:48:55,805
Speaker 9: You know that this guy obviously an antihero, but that

932
00:48:55,845 --> 00:48:57,525
Speaker 9: he was the protagonist of a movie.

933
00:48:57,765 --> 00:48:59,125
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.

934
00:48:59,165 --> 00:49:01,805
Speaker 3: I think that the interesting part about it is you

935
00:49:01,845 --> 00:49:04,285
Speaker 3: do sympathize with him even though he's clearly derained, just

936
00:49:04,325 --> 00:49:06,765
Speaker 3: because he is such a lonely character. I think that

937
00:49:06,805 --> 00:49:09,565
Speaker 3: the way the loneliness is depicted throughout the film, you

938
00:49:09,605 --> 00:49:11,844
Speaker 3: even see it in all of the supporting characters and

939
00:49:12,085 --> 00:49:15,445
Speaker 3: in his encounters with them. I think about Albert Brooks

940
00:49:15,485 --> 00:49:17,045
Speaker 3: as his character. He doesn't get much screen time, but

941
00:49:17,045 --> 00:49:19,885
Speaker 3: he's clearly just pining for Sybil Shepherd and she's completely

942
00:49:19,965 --> 00:49:23,165
Speaker 3: ignoring him, and she's drawn to Travis, which seems sort

943
00:49:23,165 --> 00:49:25,205
Speaker 3: of hard to believe on its face, but I think

944
00:49:25,245 --> 00:49:27,805
Speaker 3: it's just because of his earnestness and his conviction for her.

945
00:49:27,885 --> 00:49:29,844
Speaker 3: Even if it's just the fact that he's just in

946
00:49:29,885 --> 00:49:32,445
Speaker 3: love with her and seems to be totally devoted and

947
00:49:32,485 --> 00:49:36,165
Speaker 3: passionate in whatever she is, that's at least something that

948
00:49:36,285 --> 00:49:38,605
Speaker 3: Albert Brooks certainly isn't bringing to the table, and that

949
00:49:39,005 --> 00:49:41,885
Speaker 3: gets her somehow connected to him in a way that

950
00:49:41,925 --> 00:49:44,165
Speaker 3: she's willing to explore. And I think even the great

951
00:49:44,205 --> 00:49:47,085
Speaker 3: Martin Scorsese's scene, I really love his cameo in this

952
00:49:47,165 --> 00:49:49,045
Speaker 3: film where he ends up getting in the car just

953
00:49:49,085 --> 00:49:52,405
Speaker 3: as a fair and he makes him park outside this

954
00:49:53,365 --> 00:49:55,685
Speaker 3: apartment and he says, his wife's up there, and he's

955
00:49:55,685 --> 00:49:57,605
Speaker 3: angry that his wife is cheating on him. His wife's

956
00:49:57,805 --> 00:49:59,525
Speaker 3: cheating on him with a black man, which he also

957
00:49:59,565 --> 00:50:01,885
Speaker 3: doesn't like, and he says, I'm gonna actually do something

958
00:50:01,885 --> 00:50:04,605
Speaker 3: about this. You get that same sense of alienation and

959
00:50:04,645 --> 00:50:07,045
Speaker 3: loneliness from that character, And that scene is actually really

960
00:50:07,045 --> 00:50:10,125
Speaker 3: pivotal because it's what, in the end, seems to spark

961
00:50:10,165 --> 00:50:13,045
Speaker 3: something in Travis. It seems to give him this sense that,

962
00:50:13,085 --> 00:50:14,725
Speaker 3: wait a second, I sit here and complain a lot

963
00:50:14,765 --> 00:50:17,245
Speaker 3: about what I see going on in society. I didn't

964
00:50:17,245 --> 00:50:18,605
Speaker 3: think that, you know what, I could actually go out

965
00:50:18,605 --> 00:50:20,725
Speaker 3: and get a forty four magnum and do something about it.

966
00:50:21,085 --> 00:50:22,884
Speaker 9: So it's only after that that he starts thinking about

967
00:50:22,965 --> 00:50:25,765
Speaker 9: about assassinating the politician. I think, so, Yeah, I think

968
00:50:25,765 --> 00:50:27,485
Speaker 9: you're right. I think that happens earlier in the movie

969
00:50:27,725 --> 00:50:30,565
Speaker 9: than I remembered. Yeah, the scorseseic cameo apparently was something

970
00:50:30,565 --> 00:50:32,165
Speaker 9: that was put in at the last minute because whoever

971
00:50:32,285 --> 00:50:33,765
Speaker 9: was going to do it dropped out of the movie,

972
00:50:33,765 --> 00:50:35,005
Speaker 9: and it was just sort of like, hey, this is

973
00:50:35,005 --> 00:50:36,885
Speaker 9: a low budget movie, let the director do it. But

974
00:50:37,045 --> 00:50:39,125
Speaker 9: it ends up being so perfect, right, because it ends

975
00:50:39,165 --> 00:50:41,325
Speaker 9: up sounding as if it's sort of the soul of

976
00:50:41,365 --> 00:50:43,525
Speaker 9: the movie speaking, and it's actually some of the worst

977
00:50:43,525 --> 00:50:46,645
Speaker 9: and most violent, horrific, racist, sexist language in the whole movie.

978
00:50:46,645 --> 00:50:48,405
Speaker 9: And it doesn't come out of Robert Nero's mouth, that

979
00:50:48,445 --> 00:50:51,725
Speaker 9: comes out of the directors, right, So it's this weird displacement.

980
00:50:51,485 --> 00:50:53,725
Speaker 3: It is, I think too. Did you notice the Scorsese

981
00:50:53,845 --> 00:50:55,085
Speaker 3: pops up in another scene.

982
00:50:55,245 --> 00:50:57,404
Speaker 9: Yeah, when he's watching Sybil Shepherd walking into the building

983
00:50:57,445 --> 00:50:58,085
Speaker 9: in the white dress.

984
00:50:58,165 --> 00:51:01,605
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just sitting there along the building there and

985
00:51:01,725 --> 00:51:04,165
Speaker 3: just happens to be someone that Travis walks by. And

986
00:51:03,965 --> 00:51:06,085
Speaker 3: it's so weird that he's in the film later, but

987
00:51:06,125 --> 00:51:07,325
Speaker 3: he's also in that early scene.

988
00:51:07,325 --> 00:51:08,405
Speaker 2: I don't know quite what to make.

989
00:51:08,565 --> 00:51:10,765
Speaker 9: He's such an unmistakable bystander. It's kind of funny to

990
00:51:10,765 --> 00:51:12,245
Speaker 9: put him in if you don't want him to be noticed,

991
00:51:12,245 --> 00:51:15,845
Speaker 9: because it's this short, little stubby guy with a black unibrow.

992
00:51:15,885 --> 00:51:17,725
Speaker 9: I mean, nobody else looks like Martin Scorsese.

993
00:51:18,005 --> 00:51:20,805
Speaker 3: We were talking about loneliness and kind of those supporting characters. Obviously,

994
00:51:21,325 --> 00:51:24,645
Speaker 3: the Jodie Foster character, she's someone too who is willing,

995
00:51:24,685 --> 00:51:27,765
Speaker 3: it seems, to prostitute herself because at least someone will

996
00:51:27,805 --> 00:51:30,365
Speaker 3: listen to her. This character that Harvey Kayitel plays sport.

997
00:51:30,645 --> 00:51:33,485
Speaker 3: He says he loves her, he'll somehow validate her existence.

998
00:51:33,525 --> 00:51:36,005
Speaker 3: And the only reason, actually, I don't mind the scene

999
00:51:36,045 --> 00:51:39,685
Speaker 3: between Foster and kit Tell where Kitell basically does this

1000
00:51:39,725 --> 00:51:43,005
Speaker 3: Berry White esque soliloquy talking about how happy he is

1001
00:51:43,085 --> 00:51:44,565
Speaker 3: to be with her and how happy he is to

1002
00:51:44,565 --> 00:51:46,805
Speaker 3: have a woman who loves her man and they're dancing.

1003
00:51:47,245 --> 00:51:49,645
Speaker 3: It's a bizarre scene because it does kind of take

1004
00:51:49,685 --> 00:51:51,725
Speaker 3: you out of the moment when you realize that Travis

1005
00:51:51,805 --> 00:51:54,165
Speaker 3: isn't around. Every other moment in the film has been

1006
00:51:54,245 --> 00:51:57,405
Speaker 3: kind of through his lens and he's not there, and

1007
00:51:57,445 --> 00:52:01,205
Speaker 3: it felt really obtrusive and unnecessary. But then it does

1008
00:52:01,285 --> 00:52:03,965
Speaker 3: explain Iris if you put it in that context of loneliness,

1009
00:52:04,485 --> 00:52:07,685
Speaker 3: it makes sense that she is this character who finally

1010
00:52:07,725 --> 00:52:10,765
Speaker 3: feels a connection to someone. Clearly her parents aren't giving

1011
00:52:10,765 --> 00:52:13,045
Speaker 3: her the kind of validation she needs. This character does,

1012
00:52:13,085 --> 00:52:14,725
Speaker 3: and then you see the link she's willing to go

1013
00:52:15,005 --> 00:52:15,965
Speaker 3: to continue getting that.

1014
00:52:16,205 --> 00:52:18,045
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that scene accomplishes a lot actually when

1015
00:52:18,085 --> 00:52:21,165
Speaker 9: Kyell and Foster dance together, because it humanizes them in

1016
00:52:21,165 --> 00:52:23,045
Speaker 9: some way that makes the act of violence at the

1017
00:52:23,125 --> 00:52:25,205
Speaker 9: end of the movie more horrifying. Right, They're not just

1018
00:52:25,485 --> 00:52:27,805
Speaker 9: a pimp and his hooker, but there are two people who,

1019
00:52:27,845 --> 00:52:30,085
Speaker 9: in whatever twisted way, care about each other and need

1020
00:52:30,125 --> 00:52:32,325
Speaker 9: each other right. And then also the music in that

1021
00:52:32,405 --> 00:52:34,325
Speaker 9: scene I just thought was incredible. The moment that Kayitell

1022
00:52:34,365 --> 00:52:36,205
Speaker 9: goes over and puts the needle down on the record

1023
00:52:36,405 --> 00:52:38,884
Speaker 9: and the music that comes out is Betsy's theme. It's

1024
00:52:38,885 --> 00:52:41,365
Speaker 9: the theme, the saxophone theme that's been associated with Sybil

1025
00:52:41,365 --> 00:52:43,565
Speaker 9: Shepherd through the whole movie. It's the love theme, right,

1026
00:52:43,605 --> 00:52:45,844
Speaker 9: but somebody else's love theme. It's just a brilliant use

1027
00:52:45,885 --> 00:52:47,405
Speaker 9: of sound. I mean, and as you know, I'm just

1028
00:52:47,485 --> 00:52:49,725
Speaker 9: in love with that Bernard Herman's score for that movie.

1029
00:52:49,845 --> 00:52:51,605
Speaker 3: Yeah, And why don't we go ahead and jump into that,

1030
00:52:51,645 --> 00:52:54,285
Speaker 3: because that is a big discovery for me with this

1031
00:52:54,325 --> 00:52:57,165
Speaker 3: film the second time around, as well, seeing it again

1032
00:52:57,245 --> 00:52:59,845
Speaker 3: on the big screen and hearing that Bernard Hermann score

1033
00:53:00,045 --> 00:53:02,725
Speaker 3: and the romanticism of that main theme that you talked about,

1034
00:53:02,765 --> 00:53:05,445
Speaker 3: Betsy's theme. You did write really eloquently about it. I

1035
00:53:05,445 --> 00:53:07,005
Speaker 3: want to link to that in the notes for the

1036
00:53:07,005 --> 00:53:09,285
Speaker 3: show if anyone wants to check it out. But the

1037
00:53:10,485 --> 00:53:13,645
Speaker 3: split there, there's kind of this schizophrenic quality to the

1038
00:53:13,685 --> 00:53:15,605
Speaker 3: score where you get something so lush and so are

1039
00:53:15,685 --> 00:53:18,085
Speaker 3: romantic and so New York as you see him driving around,

1040
00:53:18,565 --> 00:53:22,165
Speaker 3: but jextaposed with all these kind of degraded, you know, images,

1041
00:53:22,205 --> 00:53:25,525
Speaker 3: But then also those main themes that you hear throughout

1042
00:53:25,525 --> 00:53:28,844
Speaker 3: the rest of the film when he's training, if you will,

1043
00:53:28,925 --> 00:53:31,525
Speaker 3: for his assassination, or he's thinking about the things he's

1044
00:53:31,525 --> 00:53:33,725
Speaker 3: going to do, and he's really getting worked up about

1045
00:53:33,725 --> 00:53:36,965
Speaker 3: the ills of society. It's so dark, it's so menacing,

1046
00:53:37,245 --> 00:53:40,325
Speaker 3: and again such a contrast to that great Betsy's theme

1047
00:53:40,685 --> 00:53:41,245
Speaker 3: and very.

1048
00:53:41,085 --> 00:53:43,285
Speaker 9: Old fashioned, right, I mean, it's like monster movie music

1049
00:53:43,445 --> 00:53:46,205
Speaker 9: or horror movie music. For some reason this particular screening,

1050
00:53:46,245 --> 00:53:49,765
Speaker 9: going and seeing this thirty fifth anniversary restoration, I was

1051
00:53:49,805 --> 00:53:51,565
Speaker 9: just really struck by the music. It almost seemed like

1052
00:53:51,605 --> 00:53:54,245
Speaker 9: the whole movie was just this huge jazz improvisation, you know,

1053
00:53:54,285 --> 00:53:56,765
Speaker 9: like the music works so perfectly with the film. And

1054
00:53:56,845 --> 00:54:00,005
Speaker 9: I know that Herman always insisted on extreme control, like

1055
00:54:00,045 --> 00:54:01,525
Speaker 9: he wanted to write the music he wanted to write,

1056
00:54:01,525 --> 00:54:03,245
Speaker 9: and the director had to work around it. And I

1057
00:54:03,245 --> 00:54:05,005
Speaker 9: don't know whether this happened with Scorsese, but I know

1058
00:54:05,005 --> 00:54:07,485
Speaker 9: with Hitchcock sometimes the scenes would have to be extended,

1059
00:54:07,485 --> 00:54:09,965
Speaker 9: and Hitchcock would make them thirty seconds longer because there

1060
00:54:09,965 --> 00:54:12,085
Speaker 9: were thirty more seconds of music that Hermann wanted him

1061
00:54:12,085 --> 00:54:12,364
Speaker 9: to use.

1062
00:54:12,485 --> 00:54:13,805
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned it.

1063
00:54:13,805 --> 00:54:16,924
Speaker 3: It's almost like Walldawall jazz, because of course Scorsese often

1064
00:54:16,965 --> 00:54:19,445
Speaker 3: gets lumped into that category as someone who has wall

1065
00:54:19,485 --> 00:54:21,364
Speaker 3: to wall rock and roll music. It's almost like it's

1066
00:54:21,405 --> 00:54:24,485
Speaker 3: just images going with the sound and mean Streets is

1067
00:54:24,485 --> 00:54:26,325
Speaker 3: a lot like that, and then you have Taxi Driver here,

1068
00:54:26,525 --> 00:54:28,525
Speaker 3: where you get this full orchestra, as you mentioned, this

1069
00:54:28,605 --> 00:54:31,805
Speaker 3: really old fashioned, kind of classic score. It actually reminded

1070
00:54:31,845 --> 00:54:35,045
Speaker 3: me a lot of those great Miklosh Roscha scores from

1071
00:54:35,325 --> 00:54:37,925
Speaker 3: the noirs, like Double Indemnity and The Killers. They're just

1072
00:54:38,005 --> 00:54:40,844
Speaker 3: so again menacing and oppressive. It's almost as if these

1073
00:54:40,885 --> 00:54:43,485
Speaker 3: characters just have the weight of the world on their shoulders.

1074
00:54:43,485 --> 00:54:45,405
Speaker 3: And I think that what I really loved about it

1075
00:54:45,445 --> 00:54:48,165
Speaker 3: is it does put this movie squarely in that context

1076
00:54:48,165 --> 00:54:50,685
Speaker 3: between old Hollywood and New Hollywood. It's clearly a New

1077
00:54:50,725 --> 00:54:53,205
Speaker 3: Hollywood film in its audacity and its style, but at

1078
00:54:53,245 --> 00:54:56,765
Speaker 3: the same time it's rooted in the films that Scorsese

1079
00:54:56,845 --> 00:54:59,645
Speaker 3: grew up obviously loving and idolizing. And I think actually

1080
00:54:59,845 --> 00:55:02,285
Speaker 3: about the end of the film, that great shot that

1081
00:55:02,325 --> 00:55:05,925
Speaker 3: everyone talks about deservedly so where after all the violence,

1082
00:55:05,925 --> 00:55:09,485
Speaker 3: we get the overhead shot, the ceiling, that aerial view.

1083
00:55:09,525 --> 00:55:11,685
Speaker 3: It's great, but then when it cuts outside and you

1084
00:55:11,765 --> 00:55:15,405
Speaker 3: get the crowded streets and the crowded street and you

1085
00:55:15,445 --> 00:55:18,005
Speaker 3: have the cop cars showing up and the sirens going,

1086
00:55:18,165 --> 00:55:20,125
Speaker 3: it really reminded me of something like straight out of

1087
00:55:20,125 --> 00:55:22,645
Speaker 3: Sunset Boulevard. It's the ending of that movie when everyone's

1088
00:55:22,645 --> 00:55:25,085
Speaker 3: showing up on the scene, or even the beginning of

1089
00:55:25,125 --> 00:55:26,645
Speaker 3: that movie when all the cars and you hear the

1090
00:55:26,645 --> 00:55:29,925
Speaker 3: sirens blaring as they're going to Norma Desmond's house. So

1091
00:55:30,205 --> 00:55:32,485
Speaker 3: it clearly has that influence on it.

1092
00:55:32,605 --> 00:55:34,605
Speaker 9: Yeah, I didn't thought of the Sunset Boulevard, but you're right.

1093
00:55:34,645 --> 00:55:36,405
Speaker 9: It's almost a direct reference to that. And it's that

1094
00:55:36,445 --> 00:55:39,285
Speaker 9: same kind of sense that this personal, intimate, painful story

1095
00:55:39,325 --> 00:55:41,565
Speaker 9: you've been seeing has suddenly become an event on the

1096
00:55:41,685 --> 00:55:44,245
Speaker 9: nightly news and you have to switch into that other context.

1097
00:55:44,245 --> 00:55:47,005
Speaker 9: And you're right, it's the same exact note as Sunset Boulevard.

1098
00:55:47,245 --> 00:55:49,485
Speaker 2: It makes sense to have that noir influence a little bit,

1099
00:55:49,525 --> 00:55:49,685
Speaker 2: I think.

1100
00:55:49,685 --> 00:55:51,805
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, the movie mostly takes place at night,

1101
00:55:51,845 --> 00:55:53,485
Speaker 3: and he sees himself. I think, is this kind of

1102
00:55:53,565 --> 00:55:56,924
Speaker 3: dark hero, this dark knight of the underworld. But what's

1103
00:55:57,005 --> 00:55:59,285
Speaker 3: troubling about it, of course, is there's no mystery to solve,

1104
00:55:59,325 --> 00:56:01,845
Speaker 3: there's no fem fatale to try to blame, there's no solution,

1105
00:56:01,965 --> 00:56:06,245
Speaker 3: there's no resolution, there's just life. And that's what makes

1106
00:56:06,285 --> 00:56:08,125
Speaker 3: it feel, I guess, so heavy and so bleak. So

1107
00:56:08,405 --> 00:56:10,844
Speaker 3: I think we should at least touch on the ending

1108
00:56:10,925 --> 00:56:12,484
Speaker 3: of the movie. I know this is something you talked

1109
00:56:12,485 --> 00:56:16,364
Speaker 3: about with John Swansburg in your spoiler special, and I'm

1110
00:56:16,405 --> 00:56:18,205
Speaker 3: exactly with you, guys. I was just nodding my head

1111
00:56:18,205 --> 00:56:19,765
Speaker 3: the whole time I was listening to you, because if

1112
00:56:19,765 --> 00:56:22,205
Speaker 3: you had asked me to describe the ending of Taxi Driver,

1113
00:56:22,245 --> 00:56:23,765
Speaker 3: and I would have bet any amount of money that

1114
00:56:23,805 --> 00:56:26,525
Speaker 3: I knew it. I would have recounted the shootout with

1115
00:56:26,605 --> 00:56:28,605
Speaker 3: the pimps and the gun to the head and that

1116
00:56:28,685 --> 00:56:31,565
Speaker 3: amazing overhead tracking shot. That's the end of the movie, right,

1117
00:56:31,685 --> 00:56:33,685
Speaker 3: And then come to find out, no, it's not. I

1118
00:56:33,725 --> 00:56:37,205
Speaker 3: completely forgot about the end with the paper clippings and

1119
00:56:37,245 --> 00:56:40,165
Speaker 3: that whole coda with the letter from Iris's parents, which

1120
00:56:40,245 --> 00:56:42,525
Speaker 3: in itself just seems kind of crazy. But I'll let

1121
00:56:42,565 --> 00:56:44,525
Speaker 3: you jump in on how much of a shock that one.

1122
00:56:44,685 --> 00:56:46,844
Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't know what's your policy on spoiling here

1123
00:56:46,885 --> 00:56:48,884
Speaker 9: on film spotting. Can we assume that a movie that's

1124
00:56:48,925 --> 00:56:50,925
Speaker 9: thirty five years old we can now talk about the

1125
00:56:51,005 --> 00:56:52,005
Speaker 9: ending of I would hope.

1126
00:56:52,045 --> 00:56:53,404
Speaker 2: So, so let's go ahead and go for.

1127
00:56:53,365 --> 00:56:53,805
Speaker 1: It, all right?

1128
00:56:53,845 --> 00:56:56,445
Speaker 9: Well, so, yeah, you have this strange coda right, So

1129
00:56:56,445 --> 00:56:58,045
Speaker 9: that after the scene that we just talked about the

1130
00:56:58,045 --> 00:57:00,645
Speaker 9: sunset boulevard referencing, you know, pulling out and seeing the

1131
00:57:00,725 --> 00:57:04,125
Speaker 9: cops arriving at the crime scene of the brothel or whatever.

1132
00:57:04,565 --> 00:57:07,565
Speaker 9: Then suddenly we cut to I guess sometime in the future,

1133
00:57:07,725 --> 00:57:10,245
Speaker 9: and again we hear Betsy's theme. We hear that, you know,

1134
00:57:10,325 --> 00:57:14,365
Speaker 9: romantic theme, and there's this kind of ironic pan across

1135
00:57:14,365 --> 00:57:17,045
Speaker 9: this wall of clippings that you realize is on Travis

1136
00:57:17,045 --> 00:57:20,285
Speaker 9: Bickle's wall in his apartment. Taxi driver becomes local hero

1137
00:57:20,685 --> 00:57:23,925
Speaker 9: save prostitute and gun battle, and that either in his

1138
00:57:24,005 --> 00:57:26,125
Speaker 9: mind and his imagination. I guess some people think that

1139
00:57:26,165 --> 00:57:28,125
Speaker 9: this is happening only his imagination, but the film doesn't

1140
00:57:28,125 --> 00:57:30,885
Speaker 9: signal that in any way. It just seems that realistically

1141
00:57:31,085 --> 00:57:33,325
Speaker 9: he's now become this hero. He somehow talked his way

1142
00:57:33,325 --> 00:57:35,565
Speaker 9: out of the massacre and made himself look like the

1143
00:57:35,565 --> 00:57:38,965
Speaker 9: hero of it. And he gets a letter from Iris's parents,

1144
00:57:38,965 --> 00:57:41,685
Speaker 9: Iris being the Jodie Foster Child prostitute character, saying thank

1145
00:57:41,725 --> 00:57:43,285
Speaker 9: you for returning our daughter to us. So he's a

1146
00:57:43,325 --> 00:57:45,885
Speaker 9: hero to them. They even say, menacingly, maybe you can

1147
00:57:45,925 --> 00:57:48,485
Speaker 9: come and visit us in Pittsburgh. Sometime and you think, oh, boy,

1148
00:57:48,525 --> 00:57:52,605
Speaker 9: Taxi Driver to the Pittsburgh Years. And then there's a

1149
00:57:52,645 --> 00:57:54,565
Speaker 9: coda to the coda, right, then there's the insane part

1150
00:57:54,565 --> 00:57:57,485
Speaker 9: where he picks up Sybil Shepherd's character Betsy as just

1151
00:57:57,525 --> 00:58:00,125
Speaker 9: a random fair. There's a lot of coincidental cabfairs in

1152
00:58:00,205 --> 00:58:02,245
Speaker 9: this movie, right, because he also picks up the politician

1153
00:58:02,245 --> 00:58:04,485
Speaker 9: that he's planning to kill earlier, that's true. He drives

1154
00:58:04,485 --> 00:58:08,005
Speaker 9: Betsy back to her apartment, and there's this strangely nostalgic

1155
00:58:08,045 --> 00:58:10,685
Speaker 9: feeling to that scene, almost as if John and I

1156
00:58:10,765 --> 00:58:12,445
Speaker 9: were saying, almost as if it's like the TV show

1157
00:58:12,485 --> 00:58:15,205
Speaker 9: Taxi instead of the movie Taxi Driver, Like, hey, you're

1158
00:58:15,205 --> 00:58:17,525
Speaker 9: all right, Travis Bickle, you know, but it has to

1159
00:58:17,565 --> 00:58:19,845
Speaker 9: be ironic and it has to be maybe a fake

1160
00:58:19,845 --> 00:58:21,765
Speaker 9: out of some kind, right, can't be meant to be

1161
00:58:21,845 --> 00:58:24,365
Speaker 9: left with the feeling that Travis Pickol's just okay.

1162
00:58:24,765 --> 00:58:26,605
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think maybe you guys touch on this

1163
00:58:26,645 --> 00:58:28,805
Speaker 3: as well. The one cue that Paul Schrader, the writer

1164
00:58:28,885 --> 00:58:30,885
Speaker 3: who we haven't mentioned yet and Scorsese he gives you

1165
00:58:30,965 --> 00:58:33,085
Speaker 3: is in that Bernard Hermann score where you have that

1166
00:58:33,125 --> 00:58:36,605
Speaker 3: moment of the backward sound that cues you, and cues

1167
00:58:36,645 --> 00:58:38,725
Speaker 3: de Niro. He responds to it as if he's hearing

1168
00:58:38,725 --> 00:58:41,445
Speaker 3: it in the scene where he quickly looks in the

1169
00:58:41,445 --> 00:58:43,445
Speaker 3: review mirror, and it's the sense that there's still something

1170
00:58:43,525 --> 00:58:46,165
Speaker 3: lurking back there. There's still something in his psyche that

1171
00:58:46,245 --> 00:58:48,765
Speaker 3: suggests that all is not well with him and things

1172
00:58:48,805 --> 00:58:50,845
Speaker 3: are not going to go very well. He's going to

1173
00:58:50,925 --> 00:58:52,725
Speaker 3: have another moment like this, but maybe he's not going

1174
00:58:52,805 --> 00:58:55,285
Speaker 3: to be regarded as a hero when that happens. So

1175
00:58:55,485 --> 00:58:57,925
Speaker 3: that part is really interesting. But yeah, it's hard to

1176
00:58:57,965 --> 00:59:00,205
Speaker 3: really get a handle on what they were going for there,

1177
00:59:00,325 --> 00:59:02,365
Speaker 3: because first of all, you are surprised that he's alive

1178
00:59:02,405 --> 00:59:04,245
Speaker 3: at all. And then I don't think you really buy

1179
00:59:04,285 --> 00:59:06,685
Speaker 3: that Iris is actually just back home in Pittsburgh and

1180
00:59:06,805 --> 00:59:09,005
Speaker 3: is really doing fine. Would she really just go back

1181
00:59:09,045 --> 00:59:11,645
Speaker 3: and resume her life as a teenage girl. It seems

1182
00:59:11,725 --> 00:59:12,965
Speaker 3: kind of hard to swallow.

1183
00:59:13,085 --> 00:59:15,325
Speaker 9: And her home life could not have been as happy

1184
00:59:15,365 --> 00:59:17,205
Speaker 9: and christian as all met right if she ran away

1185
00:59:17,245 --> 00:59:19,565
Speaker 9: from it and so fiercely refused to go back to it, you.

1186
00:59:19,525 --> 00:59:21,605
Speaker 3: Wouldn't think so, And then you do in the Sibil

1187
00:59:21,645 --> 00:59:24,765
Speaker 3: Shepherd part, And that is the one part where you said,

1188
00:59:24,845 --> 00:59:27,005
Speaker 3: they don't really signal you in any way that this

1189
00:59:27,085 --> 00:59:30,445
Speaker 3: could be like a dream. That's the one part anyway

1190
00:59:30,445 --> 00:59:32,765
Speaker 3: of the coda that seems like there's something so dream

1191
00:59:32,885 --> 00:59:34,565
Speaker 3: like about it. We don't even see her get in

1192
00:59:34,645 --> 00:59:36,925
Speaker 3: the taxi, right, He just gets in. They say he's

1193
00:59:36,925 --> 00:59:38,485
Speaker 3: got a fair He gets in, Alton, he looks in

1194
00:59:38,485 --> 00:59:39,285
Speaker 3: his rearview mirror.

1195
00:59:39,485 --> 00:59:40,605
Speaker 2: I don't think I could be wrong.

1196
00:59:40,605 --> 00:59:42,325
Speaker 3: I didn't go back and watch the DVD, but I

1197
00:59:42,325 --> 00:59:45,205
Speaker 3: don't think we actually see Sybil Shepherd except in the

1198
00:59:45,245 --> 00:59:48,085
Speaker 3: rearview mirror. So there is this sense that it's all

1199
00:59:48,125 --> 00:59:50,645
Speaker 3: his perspective and it's just in his head that maybe

1200
00:59:50,685 --> 00:59:52,485
Speaker 3: she's there, And it does seem crazy that she would

1201
00:59:52,525 --> 00:59:54,205
Speaker 3: get in and now we see her in the back.

1202
00:59:54,005 --> 00:59:55,125
Speaker 2: Seat, I think, do we okay?

1203
00:59:55,205 --> 00:59:57,605
Speaker 9: I mean we see her from that perspective that you

1204
00:59:57,645 --> 00:59:59,125
Speaker 9: see him in the front seat and her behind him

1205
00:59:59,165 --> 01:00:00,685
Speaker 9: in the back seat. You definitely get a sense that

1206
01:00:00,725 --> 01:00:01,765
Speaker 9: she's really riding in the.

1207
01:00:01,725 --> 01:00:04,245
Speaker 3: Cab, because all I remember is the shot where he

1208
01:00:04,365 --> 01:00:05,965
Speaker 3: sees her for the first time, and that's how he

1209
01:00:06,045 --> 01:00:07,965
Speaker 3: sees her is through the mirror, right, So it gives

1210
01:00:07,965 --> 01:00:10,965
Speaker 3: me the sense that he's he's fantasizing almost that it's her,

1211
01:00:11,445 --> 01:00:14,165
Speaker 3: and their conversation is really bizarre. You wonder where could

1212
01:00:14,165 --> 01:00:16,445
Speaker 3: they possibly go in terms of any kind of relationship

1213
01:00:16,685 --> 01:00:19,845
Speaker 3: from there. But with that all said, what does make

1214
01:00:19,885 --> 01:00:21,845
Speaker 3: you think it has to be legitimate or that they're

1215
01:00:21,845 --> 01:00:23,805
Speaker 3: playing it straight in some way is that I've never

1216
01:00:23,805 --> 01:00:26,925
Speaker 3: heard Scorsese or Straighter say anything that suggests otherwise. They've

1217
01:00:26,965 --> 01:00:30,205
Speaker 3: both always kind of dismissed those readings and said that,

1218
01:00:30,285 --> 01:00:32,365
Speaker 3: you know what, it really is legit, And that's why

1219
01:00:32,445 --> 01:00:34,805
Speaker 3: we added that part with the score, so you'll realize

1220
01:00:34,845 --> 01:00:37,165
Speaker 3: that all isn't really well with the world. And actually

1221
01:00:37,205 --> 01:00:39,525
Speaker 3: scor says he does the same thing in The King

1222
01:00:39,525 --> 01:00:42,205
Speaker 3: of Comedy, I think maybe a little bit more successfully.

1223
01:00:42,205 --> 01:00:44,965
Speaker 3: But both characters, if you think about Rupert Pupkin and

1224
01:00:46,045 --> 01:00:48,525
Speaker 3: who de Niro plays here, Travis Bickel, they're both lonely,

1225
01:00:48,565 --> 01:00:51,765
Speaker 3: they're both delusional, and at one point at the end

1226
01:00:51,805 --> 01:00:54,045
Speaker 3: of the film. I'm not spoiling anything for anyone who

1227
01:00:54,045 --> 01:00:56,085
Speaker 3: hasn't seen The King of Comedy, but he really sums

1228
01:00:56,165 --> 01:00:58,725
Speaker 3: up his philosophy. He says that it's better to be

1229
01:00:58,805 --> 01:01:01,285
Speaker 3: king for a knight than schmuck for a lifetime. And

1230
01:01:01,325 --> 01:01:03,845
Speaker 3: I think that, actually, though in a much darker way.

1231
01:01:03,845 --> 01:01:06,085
Speaker 3: I think Travis Bickel would agree with that. And so

1232
01:01:06,325 --> 01:01:09,205
Speaker 3: both films actually have these really cynical codas where the

1233
01:01:09,245 --> 01:01:11,965
Speaker 3: heroes are redeemed they do something really wrong, but the

1234
01:01:12,045 --> 01:01:16,245
Speaker 3: heroes are redeemed by I guess society's thirst for sensationalism

1235
01:01:16,325 --> 01:01:19,445
Speaker 3: or the Taxi Driver anyway, this thirst for blood and vengeance,

1236
01:01:19,485 --> 01:01:22,405
Speaker 3: and I think that somehow end up being these statements

1237
01:01:22,445 --> 01:01:26,165
Speaker 3: on redemption. Scorsese obviously wants these characters to be redeemed

1238
01:01:26,205 --> 01:01:28,045
Speaker 3: in some way even after they do terrible things.

1239
01:01:28,125 --> 01:01:29,965
Speaker 9: In King of Comedy, for some reason, it works better

1240
01:01:29,965 --> 01:01:31,805
Speaker 9: for me. I don't know why. I think the iron

1241
01:01:31,885 --> 01:01:33,765
Speaker 9: at the end of Taxi Driver is just somehow wrong.

1242
01:01:33,805 --> 01:01:36,325
Speaker 9: The movie's not a social satire really, and suddenly for

1243
01:01:36,365 --> 01:01:37,965
Speaker 9: the link of that code, it's as if it were.

1244
01:01:38,165 --> 01:01:39,445
Speaker 9: It's as if the end is like the end of

1245
01:01:39,445 --> 01:01:42,205
Speaker 9: Network or something, you know, where you sort of envision

1246
01:01:42,245 --> 01:01:44,325
Speaker 9: this dystopic future where things are going to keep getting

1247
01:01:44,445 --> 01:01:46,565
Speaker 9: worse and worse. It just doesn't go with the mood

1248
01:01:46,605 --> 01:01:49,005
Speaker 9: of Taxi Driver. Somehow. To me, the ending feels like

1249
01:01:49,005 --> 01:01:50,845
Speaker 9: a flaw, one of the few flaws in a really,

1250
01:01:50,845 --> 01:01:51,765
Speaker 9: really great movie.

1251
01:01:52,045 --> 01:01:53,605
Speaker 3: I think I'm with you on that, but it's certainly

1252
01:01:53,685 --> 01:01:56,365
Speaker 3: fun to discuss. One other quick thing I'll mention that

1253
01:01:56,485 --> 01:01:58,245
Speaker 3: really struck me on the big screen. I never noticed

1254
01:01:58,285 --> 01:02:01,645
Speaker 3: on the small screen before. Is it really was disappointing

1255
01:02:01,685 --> 01:02:05,125
Speaker 3: to see how Scorcese had to desaturate the colors during

1256
01:02:05,125 --> 01:02:08,285
Speaker 3: the violence. He had to really shift the look of

1257
01:02:08,285 --> 01:02:10,245
Speaker 3: the film completely in order to get an R rating.

1258
01:02:10,285 --> 01:02:12,085
Speaker 3: They had to try to make it a little less vivid,

1259
01:02:12,165 --> 01:02:14,765
Speaker 3: I guess, and I know Michael Chapman, the cinematographer, has

1260
01:02:14,805 --> 01:02:17,125
Speaker 3: said that that was something he when they restored it,

1261
01:02:17,165 --> 01:02:19,765
Speaker 3: he went out searching for the original film and apparently

1262
01:02:19,845 --> 01:02:22,325
Speaker 3: it had been destroyed later, I guess has said that,

1263
01:02:22,645 --> 01:02:24,765
Speaker 3: you know, that's fine. He thinks he actually came out

1264
01:02:24,965 --> 01:02:27,405
Speaker 3: good that way. It's something that ended up working in

1265
01:02:27,445 --> 01:02:29,245
Speaker 3: the end for the film. I don't think it really did.

1266
01:02:29,245 --> 01:02:31,045
Speaker 3: And on the big screen I really noticed it. It was

1267
01:02:31,085 --> 01:02:33,205
Speaker 3: almost as if someone had had flipped a lens or

1268
01:02:33,205 --> 01:02:35,685
Speaker 3: something on the projector when it cuts to that scene.

1269
01:02:35,725 --> 01:02:37,885
Speaker 9: It's true that it's strange looking blood. I hadn't attributed

1270
01:02:37,885 --> 01:02:39,725
Speaker 9: it to the color, but that moment, that famous shot

1271
01:02:39,725 --> 01:02:41,685
Speaker 9: where he's holding his fingers to his head and gun

1272
01:02:41,685 --> 01:02:43,805
Speaker 9: style and then this blood is slowly dripping off. Oh

1273
01:02:43,845 --> 01:02:46,605
Speaker 9: it's so powerful still and so gross, and the viscosity

1274
01:02:46,605 --> 01:02:48,325
Speaker 9: of the blood really struck me that it was like

1275
01:02:48,365 --> 01:02:51,405
Speaker 9: a lot of extra carro corn syrup in there or something.

1276
01:02:51,925 --> 01:02:55,005
Speaker 3: Well, a taxi driver obviously a film that provokes some

1277
01:02:55,045 --> 01:02:58,645
Speaker 3: good discussion. Again out now in this thirty fifth anniversary

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01:02:58,645 --> 01:03:01,325
Speaker 3: celebration of it, it played. Unfortunately if you missed it, well,

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01:03:01,325 --> 01:03:03,645
Speaker 3: you can catch it in its Blu Ray release coming

1280
01:03:03,685 --> 01:03:06,125
Speaker 3: out this Tuesday. And I mentioned it once, but you

1281
01:03:06,125 --> 01:03:08,325
Speaker 3: can read Dane his great article about the Bernard Hermann

1282
01:03:08,325 --> 01:03:10,685
Speaker 3: score over at slate dot com. We'll put a link

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01:03:10,725 --> 01:03:13,165
Speaker 3: in the notes for this show at film spotting dot net.

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01:03:13,325 --> 01:03:15,325
Speaker 7: Some guy's got to be a secret serviceman.

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01:03:16,325 --> 01:03:16,365
Speaker 9: What.

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01:03:17,085 --> 01:03:18,805
Speaker 6: I was just curious because I thought maybe i'd make

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01:03:18,845 --> 01:03:19,245
Speaker 6: a good view.

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01:03:23,765 --> 01:03:26,805
Speaker 1: Access to the film Spotting archive is just one of

1289
01:03:26,805 --> 01:03:29,885
Speaker 1: the benefits of joining the Film Spotting Family. You'll also

1290
01:03:29,885 --> 01:03:33,805
Speaker 1: get bonus shows, a weekly newsletter, early access to events,

1291
01:03:33,805 --> 01:03:38,205
Speaker 1: and more. To join, go to Filmspottingfamily dot com and

1292
01:03:38,685 --> 01:03:42,165
Speaker 1: through January thirty one, if you use promo code Supreme,

1293
01:03:42,245 --> 01:03:45,765
Speaker 1: you'll get twenty percent off. That's promo code Supreme.

1294
01:03:46,085 --> 01:03:49,045
Speaker 5: This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

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01:03:49,885 --> 01:03:50,365
Speaker 2: The burn