WEBVTT - Tiffany and Costco Settle Over Fake 'Tiffany' Rings 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:25.599 Don't you just love it? Tiffany's. Isn't it wonderful? You 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:27.520 see what I mean? Nothing bad could have happened to 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.440 you in a place like this. Isn't that I give 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:33.280 a hoot about jeweler except diamonds, of course, Tiffany the 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:37.080 most storied jeweler in the country. The name alone evokes 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.920 images of Audrey Hepburn in a black evening gown looking 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.600 into the window of the famous Fifth Avenue store in breakfast, 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:49.040 to Tiffany's and flawless diamond engagement rings in the iconic 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.800 Robin Egg Blue box. Different images are evoked by the 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:58.160 name Costco Warehouses bulk sales of household staples and deals 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:03.320 for members only. So happens when Costco starts selling diamond 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.679 engagement rings using the word Tiffany Well. Tiffany sues for 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:12.240 trademark infringement, and an eight year legal battle follows until 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.720 this week, when Tiffany and Costco reached a settlement. My 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.880 guest is intellectual property litigator Terence Ross, a partner at 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.319 Captain Eugen Rosenman. Terry tell us about the legal dispute. 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:29.880 So Costco was selling engagement rings that featured what is 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.679 often referred to as a Tiffany setting, and by that 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:39.319 they mean the diamond is raised above the ring band 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.840 in sort of an attractive setting. It was something that 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.280 was created by the founder of the Tiffany Shane gentleman 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:49.320 by the name of Charles Tiffany, and so it has 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.280 been known for over a hundred years as the Tiffany setting, 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:57.640 and Costco advertised their engagement rings as featuring a Tiffany setting, 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.600 and Tiffany the jewelry store of ject to that in 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.080 the Bottle lawsuit back in two thousand thirteen, and Costco 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.240 claimed that the word Tiffany had become a generic term. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:10.000 This actually went to a jury who came back with 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.639 a huge verdict. Tell us about the trial judges ruling. 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:19.560 So the judge in the district Court granted summary judgment 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:23.760 of liability against the Costco and in favor of Tiffany, 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:29.360 holding that the use of the Tiffany trademark constituted both 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:34.919 trademark in infringement and counterfeiting. Counterfeiting is fairly serious finding 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.640 under the Landom Act, but did not make any finding 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:42.440 with respect to the damages for those violations of the 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.400 Landom Act. So a jury trial was held specifically to 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.240 determine damages. So at the start, the jury is told 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:54.200 that Costco has already been found libel for trademark infringement 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.800 and counterfeiting, an now it's up to you, the jury, 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.480 to determine how they should be punished with respect of 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.800 monetary damages. And that jury awarded twenty one million dollars 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:08.120 to Tiffany or this counterfeiting and trademark infringement, it's appealed 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.959 to the second Circuit, and the second Circuit reverses. Why 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.920 did the second Circuit reverse? So? The Second Circuit felt 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:21.920 that the judge had overstepped her function by granting summary judgment. 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.920 The Second Circuit felt that there were genuine issues of 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.600 material fact that had, as a matter of law, to 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.680 be presented to the jury to decide and could not 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.320 be decided by the judge. And fundamentally, what this means 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.680 is the Second Circuit felt that a reasonable juror might 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:45.280 have thought that the use of the term Tiffany referred 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:49.360 to the setting and not to the jewelry store. In 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.680 other words, that the ring did not originate from the 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.480 Tiffany Jewelry store, but rather referred to the type of 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.400 setting for the engagement ring, and it was up to 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.680 jury therefore make the decision, and the judge overstepped her 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.520 bounds by making the decision for the jury. So Tiffany 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:12.680 has always defended its brand zealous lee. Did it surprise 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:16.360 you that they decided to settle with Costco? It did, 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:21.039 but the stakes were much higher on the retrial coming 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.599 back from the appellate court, and that new trial in 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:26.719 front of a jury was set fruit was coming October. 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.200 At that point, it is possible that a jury could 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.640 have returned a verdict in favor of Costco, which in 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:38.960 essence meant that the term Tiffany had become descriptive. And 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.480 at that point, if that finding were upheld on appeal, 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:48.800 Tiffany's very valuable trademark would have overnight become, if not valueless, 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:53.560 close to valueless, in that any retailer using that particular 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.880 type of setting for an engagement ring could then advertise 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:01.040 using the Tiffany trademark. So it was very high risk 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.520 situation for Tiffany at that point, with very little reward, 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.919 and so it made perfect sense to choose to settle, 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:13.160 especially if Costco had agreed to stop using the term Tiffany, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.520 but doesn't it still leave open then the question of 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:20.159 whether or not a jeweler can use the term Tiffany 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:25.240 setting it absolutely does leave that decision open. But that's 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.360 one of the things that Tiffany probably wanted to get 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.760 out of the settlement. Now, the funny thing about trademark 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.240 settlement June is that you can call them confidential, but 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:39.320 by looking at the practices of the defendant sometime after 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.720 the settlement, you can pretty much figure out what settlement was. 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.400 So now if you go into a Costco store and 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.760 you no longer see the word Tiffany being used in 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:51.000 connection with their engagement rings, you can pretty much be 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.280 assured that the settlement agreement required them to stop using 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.560 word Tiffany. And if that's what the settlement was, then 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.640 I think it was a good deal for Tiffany. And 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.400 the reason I say that is Tiffany continues to have 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:07.080 leverage over anybody wanting to use the Tiffany name, Whereas 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.200 if they've gone to trial and they've lost, they would 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.360 have lost all leverage against these other companies in the marketplace. 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.600 As long as there's this possibility that the Tiffany mark 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.240 cannot be used in any use would be counterfeiting or 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.000 trademark infringement. Then that gives you a pretty big stick 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:27.520 to wield, as the lawyers trying to enforce the Tiffany trademark. 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:31.560 Tiffany switched law firms on the matter a month ago. 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:36.520 Could that have made a difference. It certainly is interesting timing. 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.880 Sometimes by changing law firms like that, you get a 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:45.160 different perspective on where you stand. It is from time 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.039 to time possible for a law firm that has been 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.160 fighting it out day to day in the trenches to 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.839 develop blinders so that they've got just mono vision and 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.560 they can see no path forward except through litigation. Whereas 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:01.160 you bring in a new firm looking at the situation afresh, 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.320 and they might come up with a different solution that 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:06.600 gets the client where they want to go. You see 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.760 this quite frequently in the trademark areas. Trademark is one 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.600 of these funny areas of law where both clients and 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:17.120 lawyers can become irrational because they're personally attached to the trademark. 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.880 And here it is not just any trademark, It is 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.360 the name of the founder of the company, Charles Tiffany, 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.280 and so you often see irrational decisions going on. This 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.880 lawsuit has been going on since two thousand thirteen. That's 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:35.480 eight years. That's phenomenal for a trademark lawsuit and tells 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:40.520 you a lot about how personally the parties took the litigation, 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.760 and that probably spilled over to the lawyers and bringing 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:45.920 him new lawyers to look at things fresh probably helped 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.960 Tiffany a lot. There have been so many brand names 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.760 that were trademarked that went on to become generic terms 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:57.400 because of their popularity, asked for an escalator, taser, just 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.760 to name a few. What can Tiffany do to stop 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.720 that from happening to its trademark? I think in this 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.600 situation it's a very challenging legal problem for Tiffany. The 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:11.240 need to continually police the mark, which is the phrase 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.880 we use in trademark law, is ongoing. It's continuing. You 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.920 do not have to sue every single person who uses 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:22.360 the word Tiffany, but you do have to show a 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:28.320 regular pattern of chasing after people who are infringing the mark. 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.480 And this is what Xerox has done so well for 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:35.040 decades and decades now. And although we as late people 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:39.520 may sometimes think of Xerox as having become genericized in 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.000 the law, it really has not because of the enforcement 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.160 actions Xerox took Tiffany's. In the same mind here, it's 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:48.840 going to have to constantly police this mark in order 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.480 to preserve it. Whether or not they have to engage 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:55.920 in this sort of multimillion dollar legal fee litigation lasting 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.560 eight years is probably overkill. But this one sort of 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.360 got away from them. I assume they thought at the 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.040 outset Costco would back down and it could be settled 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.200 relatively quickly, but it did not. Then Costco did not, 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:11.679 and you can sort of see why. I mean, Costco 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.120 is trying to sell engagement rings. If the guy comes 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:20.439 home from Costco and shows his fiance this lovely engagement 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.520 ring that's branded a Tiffany setting, that's one thing. If 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.000 he comes home in a Costco both, I mean, could 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:27.840 you imagine I'd love to see the face of the 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.360 bride when she told that her diamond engagement ring comes 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:36.000 from Costco. That little extra branding from Tiffany really helps. 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.800 And so there's gonna be a constant temptation in the 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:42.200 marketplace for people selling diamond engagement rings to try to 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.560 use the term Tiffany and then point to the setting 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.199 of the diamond as allowing them to do so. So 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.679 Tiffany scored beyond a continuous pressure to defend this mark. 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:55.560 We don't know what will happen in the end, but 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.360 it scored to be a costly exercise for Tiffany. I 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.319 have to say, in researching this, I was surprised at 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.880 some of the names that I thought were generic that 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.480 were actually brand names and trademark to start out with, 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:13.200 like Kleenex, Taser, and even TV dinner. It's an interesting 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.679 part of branding in general is that you are the 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:21.760 first to market with a product and the trade name 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.480 you assigned to the product is so appropriate that you 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:29.840 actually put it at risk of becoming generic. Sized. Aspirin 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.480 is the classic example of this. It was the only 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.360 product like that at the time, and people simply started 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.800 referring to headache medicines as aspirant. Same with tissue paper. 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.400 They were relatively quick to the marketplace with this concept 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.959 perfect trade name, and people started using as we tend 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:48.960 to do in a geneer sized way. Tiffany is a 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:53.680 little bit different. It is a subset of the consumer 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.520 world that buys engagement rings, and I think it's a 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.800 little bit harder to make that an allergy to clean 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.520 X or aspiring xerox. But that said, from having done 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.000 a lot of jewelry cases over the years, you do 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.080 hear the people who are knowledgeable about this area always 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:14.120 referring to that setting. Setting fascinating is always terry. Thanks 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:19.600 so much. That's Terence Ross of Captain uten Rosenman. Carry 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.480 Dunn spent decades at the very tomp of the New 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.640 York legal profession, making millions of dollars defending Wall Street 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.319 banks and global corporations. The sixty three year old was 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.719 a senior partner at Davis Polkin Wardwell, one of New 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:38.000 York's most prestigious and profitable law firms. But the sixty 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.920 three year old decided to leave his elite law firm 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.200 to return to the Manhattan District Attorney's office, where he 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.880 had his first job after law school, and as Manhattan 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:52.280 District Attorney Cy Vance's general counsel, carry Dunn may have 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:56.320 found the biggest case of his career investigating former President 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.720 Donald Trump and his company. Joining me is Greg Farrell 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.240 bleu Burke, Legal reporter Greg described the kind of work 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:07.520 he did at Davis Polk Carry done. He spent three 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.240 years as a baby prosecutor, an assistant district attorney under 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:16.120 the legendary Robert Morgan Thau, from which is where he 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.080 met another baby prosecutor at that time, Cyrus Vans Jr. 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:24.079 And then left in to take a position at Davis Polk. 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:29.600 He interviewed with Robert Fisk Jr. Who's a legendary figure 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.679 in his own right. Bob Fiske was the U S 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.760 Attorney for the Southern District during the Clinton administration and 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.120 then became He's not as well known as the other 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.319 white Water Water prosecutor, but he was the first special 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:46.480 counsel or independent council appointed to investigate President Bill Clinton's 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.439 role or whatever his connection was with the dubious real 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.520 estate transactions that became to be known as Whitewater and Um. 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:55.840 Eventually he was replaced by Ken Starr, and we all 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.800 know how that movie ended. Uh So, anyway, Bob Fiske. 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.240 One of the interesting things about Carry Dunn is when 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.360 he said this in a testimonial to Fisk or when 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.520 he was given an award a few years ago, that 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.520 just while he was interviewing with Fisk. He thought, if 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:11.920 they offered me a job, I want to take it. 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:13.880 I want to work for this guy and do whatever 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.520 he wants me to do. This is back in and 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.400 it became almost a thirty year career at David's Polk. 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.680 Was he a litigator there is from like Davis Polk, 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.120 I take a give a lot of corporate clients. Yes, 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.400 very much so. And right it's one of the largest 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.840 you know, corporate's big law the definition of big law, 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.000 a huge law firm, A lot of corporate work for 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.199 Wall Street banks as well as just large global corporations, 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.199 and done worked his way up. What I found interesting 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.640 about him is he didn't become necessarily a star litigator, 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:44.920 the guy you want in the courtroom for the big case. 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.720 He did that, but a search of his pacer court 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.560 files and hopefully the listeners understand what that is just 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.360 a TikTok of the cases he was involved with and 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.400 appeared in court. Was fairly heavy in the ninet nineties, 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.880 but started petering out in the early two thousand's when 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:02.200 he became like a managing partner and started devoting more 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.480 of his time to managing the law firm. It was 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.040 also during that period in the late nineties where he 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.480 devoted a lot of his time to efforts that were 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.840 not billable hours. Bob Fisk, you know, was appointed to 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.840 lead a commission in the nineteen nineties to clean up 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.000 the mess, or at least two come up with a 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.080 solution to the problem of courts being basically overrun with 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.120 drug crimes and like, as you remember, the nineteen nineties 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.480 was a terrible time in the country, but particularly in 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.440 New York City for drug crimes. And so when you 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.520 talk about drug crimes, you have a wide variety extending 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.840 from notorious bad actors and traffickers who kill people and 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.400 are involved with cartels and need to be tried in 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:45.480 the federal court system or in the state court system 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.560 and put away for a long time, all the way 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.920 down to you know, sad cases of people who were 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:51.880 addicted and then you know, break into a car and 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.360 steal the radio so they can get their hundred dollar 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:56.960 fixed that night. And you know, the system in the 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.800 lumped them all together, and the devised under Bob Fift's 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.200 direction carry done was his basically his general counsel for 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.320 that wrote a report suggesting the creation of a whole 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.359 new tier of courts UH for these low level basically 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:16.080 sad addicted case offenders, so that they could, instead of 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.480 being thrown in jail, could be given if you know, 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.960 they passed, you know, muster, basically the opportunity to come clean, 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.600 beat their habit, and return to you know society as 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.360 you know, productive you know people and UH and not 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:30.160 have to go to jail for ten years because they 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.840 did something really stupid when they were high. And this 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.920 became very successful at relieving the burden on the New 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.320 York State drug system of all huge amount of these 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.200 cases that were clogging the system. And also just in 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.080 terms of doing a good thing, basically separating people who 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.120 did not need to be put away from many years 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.200 and allow them a chance to redeem themselves and clean 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.320 up their act. And it became a model from any 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.920 other states to pursue. So carry Dunne was instrumental in 0:15:56.040 --> 0:16:00.360 basically putting this paper together. The judge who asked Fist 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:02.360 to to do this with so impressed by done that 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.760 she named him to a couple of subsequent commissions, one 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.880 of which was aimed at providing legal services to so 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.520 called indigent people. Now we all know that if you 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.920 are accused of crime and you're poor and you have 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.240 no access to a public defender will be appointed to 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.800 represent you. That's criminal. There's like so many cases, civil 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.280 cases where somebody's been wronged or accused of something and 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.840 they can't afford like a real lawyer, you know, so 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:30.880 they represent themselves and of course lose because they don't 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.240 even know what they're doing in court. And carry Done 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.480 headed up a commission that sort of came up with 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.640 a solution of providing free legal services to people who 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:41.880 didn't couldn't afford so the least they could get some 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.720 professional representation in court in a civil case. So that's 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.160 yet another example of what he did to sort of 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.280 like improve the court system in New York. Those are 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:54.560 not buillable hours. That's stuff that doesn't care. And at 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.280 one point he was president of the Manhattan Bar Association. 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.200 So I spoke to retired judge Ry Caymans, who had 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.560 served with carry Down on some of these uh and 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.560 and helped out significantly on some of these commissions. And 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.160 because I'm not a lawyer, and I thought, well, why 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.879 is it a big deal? Every biographical sketch of carry 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.080 Dunn says he you know, president of New York City Bar, 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.880 and he said, no, that's significant because of how much 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.920 time and effort he put into improving the system, uh 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:23.280 to you know, basically good causes that for him, as 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:25.680 a senior corporate lawyer to take this on and throw 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:27.639 himself at that and continue some of the work he 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.840 was doing is significant. Judge Cammons told me that he 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.399 you could look at Carry Dunn as a guy who 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.960 had three careers, first as a prosecutor, second as a 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:40.159 corporate litigator, big money you know, representative for you know, 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.400 Wall Street banks and global corporations, but finally as head 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:45.600 of the New York City Bar, and as someone who 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.760 basically for the industry of lawyers in New York really 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.840 contributed a tremendous amount of time and energy. Dunn has 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:55.639 been recognized, you know, and given awards for all the 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:57.440 amount of time and eff he was put into pro 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.919 bono work. Um, but that's something that someone like me 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.600 who writes about this stuff for Bloomberg News, it was 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:05.560 not on my radar screen. I write about, you know, 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:07.920 the companies and the banks that get charged with something 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.840 and who defends them, etcetera. So this is a significant 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:12.760 part of his career, and now he's come full circle. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.919 He's back, you know, working with the prosecution team in 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.560 what could eventually be like the most significant case of 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.720 his life. What I found interesting is that he said 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:25.000 that his proudest moment was not all his Wall Street work, 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.480 but his pro bono defense of a Bronx residence. Yes, 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.399 that's right. So there was a murder in Brooklyn in 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.520 the summer of two thousand one, and a guy named 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.199 Lonnie Jones was identified by an eye witnesses, you know, 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.880 someone who shot like a gang leader or something. And 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.359 it went to trial and this you know, key government 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.280 witness testified against him, bang bang bang guilty, you know, 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.680 and then sent away. A group of Davis Polk lawyers 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.480 and every large law firm has people dedicated to pro 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.120 bono work, and a couple of them, including someone who's 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.480 now a senior official. Justice Department, concluded that, you know, 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.080 this key witness was lying and that there were a 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.680 couple of other witnesses who had not been contacted who 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.320 could refute that testimony. And so they basically won the 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.400 right for retrial to get the original conviction thrown out. 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.119 And at the retrial, uh, they brought in carry Donne, 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.520 you know, again, a senior trial lawyer at Davis Polk 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:20.359 to do the arguments. They didn't do it themselves. And 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.360 you know, he did it effectively and won an acquittal. 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.080 And he said he told the Village Voice this. There 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.280 was a great story in the Village Voice from you know, 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.359 fifteen years ago on this, and he said that, no 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.360 matter what I do, this will probably be the most 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.040 important thing I ever did as a lawyer. It was 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.800 very a very touching remark for a guy who has yes, 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.320 made millions of dollars whose corporate work. So his demeanor 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:43.919 was described as mild mannered, but Judge Caman said that 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:48.000 he has tremendous charisma. I guess the mild manner description 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.040 and I talked about this with my editor. So much 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:54.440 is more like um. In response to the Trump organizations, lawyers, 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:57.520 I think quite rightfully are trying to make the case 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.800 that this is a political you know, elected Democrats in 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.080 New York state of going after the president. So they're 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.760 trying to cast doubt on the veracity or the legitimacy 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.720 of the charges and instead of engaging, and this is 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.800 to the Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance Junior's credit. Instead 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.439 of engaging them directly or having a press conference outside 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.840 the courthouse to fight back at them, he's taken a 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.880 guy who's really perceived a political you know, made some 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.840 modest contributions to Democrats over many years, but not many 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.639 He's not a big political player, and a guy who's 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.680 not likely to get hot and bothered and angry and 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.440 fight back fire with fire like a cable TV talk 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:37.359 show host or something. So I think that's what the 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:42.320 mild management and unflappable. And you heard that in the 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:46.439 Supreme Court argument that he did. He was unflappable, but 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:51.040 very convincing. His tone was moderate. So and actually the 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.320 Supreme Court thing is is hugely significant. Um as you know, 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.080 there are not one, but two visits to the Supreme 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.919 Court because the Trump organization, again exercising his rights, you know, 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.280 fought the idea of allowing a grand jury to subpoena 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:08.399 the now former president's tax records. And think about this. 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:12.200 You've got Donald Trump's lawyer, j Secalo, and and also 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:14.919 you know Noel Francisco of these as a listener General's 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.760 Office of the U. S Government arguing that you know, 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:19.840 you what you could end up doing. If you allow 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:22.960 the Manhattan District Attorney to do something like this, you 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:27.159 could basically empower all twenty county prosecutors across the country 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.560 to go, you know, reek mayhem on any president, including 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.080 Joe Biden now or something. So, uh, they introduced this 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:37.399 worst case scenario, and the Supreme Court justices, you know, 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.240 take that seriously, and so you could have you know, 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.840 Vance himself standing up there. You need someone from the office. 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:47.080 Sometimes people who don't have a lot of experience, parties 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:48.919 that don't have a lot of experience at the Supreme 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.680 Court engage a professional, you know, lawyer like Walter Dellinger 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.040 when we quote in the article, who has lots of 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:59.399 experience arguing before the Supreme Court. But Vance, to his credit, 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:00.960 made the right to acision. It had to be someone 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:03.320 from his office making this argument, and it could have 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.280 been a line prosecutor. But a line prosecutor is always 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.359 already committed to a case. When you're a prosecutor and 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:12.240 you've gone this far, there's a certain amount of investment, 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.720 uh in this. Someone like done and all the work 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.800 he's done for legal reform in New York State is 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.080 not someone who could be described either as a partisan 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:25.280 elected official or a prosecutor who's so dug into a 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.359 case that he can't see the bigger picture. He was 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:30.320 actually the perfect guy to put in front of the 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:32.639 Supreme Court. And even though he never argued before the 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.680 Supreme Court before, he was very well briefed by the team, 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.600 you know, and was able to engage with the justices. 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:41.760 And here's another thing that when you're appearing before the 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:44.800